Socrates as Family Man

Welcome back to the new Thinkery. Before we start our show, we want to thank all of our donors and also ask for you to please rate and subscribe and spread the word. And without how you doing else? I'm doing well.

How you doing, Greg? I'm feeling vibrant, youthful, vigorous. Which is an alternative for this episode because this is what we're talking about. It's about Socrates as a family.

It's Socrates as a husband and father. Maybe he's a son. We'll talk about it. Oh, son.

Very good. Yeah, but did he talk about his parents ever? Yeah, he did. He was his mother as a midwife.

And his father? Father, Saphroniscus. Saphroniscus. Stone cutter, right?

Stone Mason. But it's interesting because he's the only philosopher who seems to have had a family, right? As far as we can tell, we look at the pantheon. Greg, you've got a good quote about this.

Yeah, so actually, one of the spurs that the episode tonight is from a line from the genealogy of morals, on genealogy of morals. By Nietzsche, third essay, section seven. Here is Nietzsche, thus the philosopher of horror's marriage together with that which might persuade to it. And then the marriage being a hindrance and calamity on his path to the optimum.

What great philosopher hitherto has been married. Eryclitis, Priu, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnitz, Kant, Schopenhauer? They were not. More, one cannot even imagine a philosopher married.

A married philosopher belongs in a comedy. That's my proposition. And as for that exception, Socrates, the malicious Socrates. It would seem that he married, ironically, just to demonstrate this proposition.

Yeah, that's such a good. Thank you, Greg. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I want to be a guy.

Some married. Hey guys, check out my wife, huh? Oh, thank you. Greg, my wife is married.

Well, Greg has been married more than anybody else on the podcast. That's true. You've been married so many times. You've been married so many times.

You've been married as much as the others. I was surprised. Right. And then some give or take.

Now, but Greg, your earlier marriages didn't work out because you were possessed of so much virtue that they could not handle it. I think there was a Spaniard. She was just wild and I couldn't tame her. Lauren, right?

Right. What? The Spaniard? You don't know about unise?

I mean, I don't know. Oh, Alex was in there for that chapter. Yeah, that was an early one. He's passed away though.

Greg. In other words, the dancer, she got into drugs. Greg, I'm hoping to join you because my marriage is a fan. Me too.

This is why the new thing we were always asking books to send us picks. They were joking, but it's actually a sign of our deep loneliness. Let's just say this. Let's just say this since this is upfront.

If you're interested in marrying one of the members that you think are email-less, your proposition to the new degree. A gmail.proposal. Proposal. Proposal.

Yeah. Proposition maybe works also. Proposal or proposition. Greg likes nudes.

I like a curriculum V-tie because everyone knows that. Is that how you pronounce that? Or is that just V-tie? You don't know.

Greg. Well, we're getting a strike. Greg, while he has been married more than anybody on Earth, he has- Larry King. Larry King.

He has zero children, right? That I know of. You know. Legitimate children.

Legitimate children. Yeah. So you're in a way, I would guess, the most philosophic of all of us. That's true.

The philosopher is unmarried. The philosopher doesn't have a family. I have the least family. Ergo.

I'm the most philosophic. At least for the next few months. What are you trying to say here, Greg? I am with child.

You are? Well, we are. We know what kind of- I'm trying to talk like that. I think I'm really, really proud that I know.

Great. Thank you. It is a great pleasure. I'm going to make a video on that so far.

Oh, it's so true. Oh, yeah. It's so great. There you go.

I'm going to say the teacher. You've got to, I'm going to say the teacher. Okay. I'm going to say the teacher.

Okay. He's great. Hey. And the teacher's teaching.

I'm like what the teacher said about it. He's going to say, well, I'm just so, I just so much. All right. And say, well, it's a great pleasure.

You're a great teacher. I was a very great teacher. And then I said, well, what was it that we wanted to talk about? tells me.

It's gonna be a surprise. We're looking for surprises in life. We're looking forward to finding out in the delivery room. You guys hear another couple quotes about Socrates family guy from the Dias is life Socrates.

So we began with an each quote that says flossers don't be married and only Socrates actually had a family by the way he did it ironically. So here at least according to the the biographer of philosophers, Diagnes Léarchus, and we just did an episode on him with Spencer Clayman by the way. So that's good. Here's what he has to say about Socrates.

That he had two wives, Aristotle says that he had two wives Socrates. The first was Zenfébi, whom we all know from Plato, by whom he had a son named Lamperclies, and we'll read really about him and Zephyrn here just a moment. The second was Merto, the daughter of Aristotese the Just, and he took her without any dowry, the gentleman that he was, and by her he had two sons, Sophroniscus and Manexus. But some say that Merto was his first wife, and among others, some say some among whom are satirists and Hieronymists of Rhodes say that he had them both at the same time.

For they say that the Athenians, on account of the scarcity of men, passed a vote with the view to increasing the population that a man might marry one citizen, and might also have children by another who should be legitimate on which account Socrates did so. That's my kind of law. Right? That is equal.

All the young men are being killed, so it's now time for polygamy. I'm doing it for the polis. That's the best pick up line. This is still from the Dijd.

Yeah, for me, for our country. This is also from Dijd. This is like the Socrates, this is 17. I don't know if there are chapters.

I've not read a lot of Dijd. Anyway, he said once to Zenfébi who first abused him and then threw water at him. So Socrates and Elsébiites are at Socrates' house, and his wife throws water at him. Did I not say that Zenfébi was thundering now, it would soon rain when Elsébiites said to Socrates, the abusive temper of Zenfébi isn't tolerable.

Socrates said, but I hear blood and use to it, just as I should be if I were always hearing the noise of a pulley and knew yourself and do her to hear geese cackling to which Elsébiites answered yes, but geese bring me eggs and dostlings, well- replied Socrates, and Zenfébi brings me children. Once she attacked him in the marketplace and tore his cloak off, just ripped his clothes right off of him, his friend's advice and to keep her off with his hands. Just get a hold of your wife's properties. And he said, by Zeus, that while we were boxing, you may all cry out, well done, Socrates, well done, Zenfébi, I'm not being my wife, that's immoral, I'm not liking people.

And he used to say that we're not to live with a restive woman, this is good advice for you future philosophers out there. Just as a horseman manages violent, tempered horses, and as they said he, when they have once mastered the horses, they can live easily with all the other horses. So I, after managing my wife's enthalpy, can live easily with any other women whatsoever. It didn't seem like it worked though.

This translation, by the way, this translation, by the way, covers everything it takes away. It's just through water, but the idea is she empties a bit. Yes, so she pours piss on him. And then when it says to advise him to keep her off of his hands, as the boxing makes clear afterwards, they say, why don't you punch your wife's properties?

Yeah, why don't you punch her in the face? I mean, these are where we go from there. But if it is through the Socrates was this, I mean, these examples from Dijsullarities would almost confirm to me, Nietzsche's view that Socrates married somewhat ironically. So let's, let's maybe we can get we're probably 20 or 30 minutes in too far.

Sorry, sorry. Sorry. I thought that the question that all this lighthearted discussion, the more serious question is that is the philosophy compatible with with the life of a good, you know, is commonly understood family life? And so can the philosopher be a good father?

It's in the same family of questions as if is the philosopher a good citizen, etc. So there seems to be an in-compatibility. So I don't know where the incompatibility rests. Is it simply that the duties of a home life take take one away from the contemplative life?

And so you just can't spare a few hours now, anybody that has children. It's like you've, I feel like you've definitely experienced that, David. You totally, totally details everything. Yeah.

It's a divine time to read and then other things. And so that's definitely part of it, right? It's just simply like philosophy is almost a single minded pursuit of wisdom or truth. And so therefore it's just a huge distraction.

And unlike a job where you can, which is also a distraction from philosophy, which you can, by the way, it's actually seems not to have had a job. But with a job, you can sort of the other day, okay, I'm done. I can retire like my capability does and read all night. Well, if you have kids, you've got to probably work and then you come home and you got to take care of the kids.

And then maybe you can read it for like 10 or 15 minutes before you Zonk off like I did earlier this evening before recording, which probably explained my ridiculous mood. You know, don't kids. But the other thing, the other big impediment, I think, I don't know if this is impediment, it's the right way to put it. But there's philosophers, this comes out in the symposium a little bit like there's this, the people for what is good or what is their own.

And I think that a common mistake people often make is identifying the good with their own. And so there's a good friend of mine, Scott, you know, with whom you do some work, once talked about, one of the lies that lies at the heart of having children and that lie is that your children are special, right? And so frequently you'll meet somebody like, isn't my child the most beautiful child? And you look at it, like, Oh, yeah, no, your child is super beautiful.

And people always think they're kids as smart as kid and all this other. But it may be the case that your kids actually not that smart and therefore not necessarily this is sound very hard less. I'm sorry. And therefore maybe not that worthy of your love and that maybe someone else's kid is more worthy of your love and time and attention, because they actually do have serious potential in some of them, you can have serious conversations.

And so there's a way in which being a philosopher tries to get you to transcend what is your own. And the family is very much your own. And so there's in a way being attached to and loving your family shows a love of one's own, which seems also to be not compatible with the philosophical. Well, first of all, I'll be like, you my kid is beautiful.

And it's my she's one. So is the other one. Okay, so it's the other one. Good.

Good. Good. It is true. Like you have to at some point as a parent, like ask yourself, is do I have a garbage child?

Like did I have? Ask themselves that. No, but did I get a lemon? Like did I get a bad one?

Yeah. And otherwise, you're going to, you know, you could spend your life trying to like, you know, love. There's this weird thing on the one hand, like you want your child to live up to your standard. That's on the other hand, you'll adjust your schedule and don't goodness so that you can like continue to love your child, which is a bit more, more common thing.

So you get these like demanding parents on the one hand and then these very like passive, whatever. One thing I thought that was funny about me just quote is he says a Mary Falassian power in comedy, right? Your pronunciation show. But he says a married philosopher belongs to comic.

You know, this is a guy who revered heresophanes, right? Spoke of him and specifically a Plato's depends on their songs. And he at times sometimes very quietly is alluding to the clouds and other plays. It's very strange because in the cloud, Socrates is not Mary so far as we can tell, right?

And one of, I think one way to maybe help focus this question is to ask, well, if the philosopher is not committed to his community of his family or his political community, what is the community to which he is committed? And heresophanes, I think really gives the special attention and the tension between these other, this community on the one hand, Socrates philosophic, let's just say he's philosophic friends on the one hand and then he is on the other hand, the familial and political relationships that form the city. That's why Alex View should be has earned his nomination from the Peabody's for best co-host of the year on an thoughtful philosophic podcast right there that excellence segue from 0.1 Nietzsche to 0.2 heresophanes in the rush show. I mean, that was masterwork right there.

So what's your answer? We've been doing this really well. We haven't done it for a while. We're the old thinker now.

Yeah, I know. We're like the medium. So why are there only men in the, in the thinkery? And what about this thingery, by the way, we didn't have a couple times we haven't taken over by women.

That was funny. But I thought those episodes did horribly. The numbers were horrible. David is transitioning.

They're not from a meage woman. You're transitioning from a fat guy to a thing guy. Just as Greg, we used to make fun of those being childless and how we can't. We can no longer be in front of you for being fat.

You're submitting 20-year-olds in your Jiu-Jitsu classes. I'll do a big reveal soon. This feels so unfair because I cannot grow hair. I gotta start taking pills and putting, I'm just going to pronounce your your pressure, your Persian treasures.

I mean, that would be a way that you could transform. I throw my cheese. You could give up. You could give up the **** whole and heart effects.

Yeah, Alex, you could give up. You're insane. You're insane. He'll gotten well.

You're in the South of France. You could give that up. My four muscle slaves who carry me on the platform everywhere got to go. Get out of here.

You chiseled the wilds. What's the word of Donnes's? Why are you oiling them up? Because you look handsome that way.

It's like saying. There are only men in the thinkery. Yeah, the only man in the thinkery. But the problem is, is people die in your thinkery as Greg will soon enough.

And then you got to get new people in your thinkery. Most people, if they want to replenish their family, or the city wants to replenish itself, they have people reproduced. When you only have men who can't reproduce. So what are they going to do in the thinkery?

The solution seems to be you got to get people from the outside. You got to get people from the political community. And so that's in fact the sort of driving almost sort of observation of the play in a way. Because how does Dripside, because if this community were self-sustaining, it would be, you know, it would just probably they could go live off of the woods or something like that away from everyone.

But they need people. They also need stuff. And so they steal food. And they do their best to take things.

Right. And so both of these these elements, one stealing obviously, but then also corrupting the youth and convincing them that Zeus is not and all the things that they have to do in the thinkery in their self-these clouds. All of these involve replacing women in effect and replacing children, replacing the family, but the crime. Right.

And so that immediately makes them susceptible, Socrates is something. So I was wondering if there are two other reasons potentially, as I think you're why there are no women and Socrates is new, thinkery, nothing to think. Sorry. One is a sort of implicit criticism of Athens, right?

So women are prohibited more or less from being in public. And so the simple fact of the matter is that politically women are oppressed and so therefore there are women aren't able to get a special education to be prime candidates for philosophy. A, B, on a deeper level, excuse me, is what's being said here that if the Nietzsche quote is right and if what they are doing is for reinventing a kind of family in the thinkery, is it easier? What's the right way it says?

One has to basically abandon one's natural family. And is that somehow easier for men to do than women? And then here's what I have in mind. Men abandon, this is a sad, unjust state of affairs, but men often abandon their families.

I won't do this. Don't worry. I told the wife already, there's a pretty good chance I'm sticking around. So men sometimes abandon their families.

Why? Women, women sometimes also abandon their families, but with much less regularity. And when it does happen, women do it. I almost feel like it's almost always on the local news.

Well, you mean, yeah, I was just going to say that. I feel like women kill their families. Yes. We're on.

You've called, I was looking at this once. It makes me laugh. I think because it's so but it makes you laugh. That's Alie's because you're working with a milio side or something like that.

Seriously? Yeah. This is like a phenomenon. It's almost always women, right?

Yeah, I mean men do it because of financial problems. But women do it. I think just because, I don't know. Guys, do you know any of these stats?

Can you just speaking? I'm not making up stats, but I am sort of speaking. I'm really, really, really. It feels right.

No, it feels right. I mean, I feel like I've never seen a story on the man. No, no, no, no. Don't look it up.

You heard it in your first. We need to kill the families in a way they have the right because they need them too, right? They need to children and then they also force the men to marry them through deception. You don't hear stories?

We're going back and saying, well, just that the reason they're going after men is because men are more poised to, and this is not necessarily marking on the side of mentioning how good they are. We've lost Alex, by the way, he's trying. He's just staggered by your statistic that women murder their families with greater regularity than men. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. What else? I'm dropping his to your wife.

Listen, I just want to go on the record. The men who think we do not advocate any extent ever murdering your family. We are so. No, no, no, that's what we're staking out.

No, no, no, no. Some say it's brave, but we just think that that's the right thing to do. We're not partially examined life. We're not used on the family.

Exactly. Exactly. That one is that they've strangely, I would say they're silent. They're not spoken on the issue of whether they think murdering your whole family is right or wrong.

I mean, that's, I'm just drawing attention to it as a public service. Silence is definitely. Yeah. I don't know where it's going now.

This one. Let's move on. Let's move on. It's fitting that I discussed with Aristotle's devolve since I'm laughing about what it takes.

I never thought it was next year. The zetaphon guy, Greg, let's jump into this. Sure. So there are many times in zetaphon where zetaphon discusses Socrates' family relations.

And I had just a couple in mind, one where he talks about a conversation he said with his son, and one where a conversation actually said at a drinking party about his wife. So we never actually see Socrates speaking to his wife in the Zenitham. But we see him talking to his young son about his wife. So this is the memorabilia, which is, that's not right page, the memorabilia is Zenitham's recollection of Socrates.

And as you go through the memorabilia, a large part of the memorabilia, and we should do an episode of the memorabilia at some point, but Zenitham goes through and shows how Socrates benefited those around him. His companions, his friends, his family members, for example. And there's a kind of progression which we don't need to get into right now. But in one of the cases he shows how Socrates is benefited his son by giving him advice.

And here's kind of the situation. Socrates' son was being a disobedient little jerk to his mom. And so basically what Socrates is trying to do is reconcile his son toward his mom. And that's kind of what, we get a series of steps.

So look, why are you being so ungrateful to your mom? Socrates said, he said, yeah, I'm ungrateful to her. And he says, have you observed, Socrates says, then what they do that makes people call them this name, and grad ungrateful. I have says this on Lamborghles.

They call on grateful those who have been well treated but do not return the favor they can. And he goes on and says, don't you realize your mom, she's treated you well, and you're being ungrateful to her. Go ahead, sir. Yeah, so one thing I'll say, he actually doesn't mention, you know, his mom, he speaks in the whole evening.

It's general at first. And then Lamborghles picks up on it. He says, even if she has done all these things, they're very many other sides. No one could endure her harshness.

Which do you think is more than this is in seven? This is book two, chapter two with him. In section seven, as I said, what do you think is more difficult to bear the ferocity of a beast or of a mother? And Lamborghles says, from my bar, I think that of a mother, at least one such as this.

So that's worse than a beast. So Lamborghles, I one thing I got from this, you know, I don't know the memorabilia, so correct me for one. But I got this sense that Lamborghles is kind of used to his mother being like really difficult, but also his dad being kind of elliptical. And I'm like, oh, giving an abstract argument and all of a sudden bringing it to bear.

I was like, Oh, Lamborghis is, he's got to talk with me. He said, like, live his mom and his dad. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah.

But you can imagine what it must be like, Mary to, you being the the child of on the one hand, a woman who's famous for being sort of a shrew. And on the other hand, like a dead be dead. Like the world's most famous dead be dead. So I don't know.

It's like telemachus, right? You think so? Yeah, I guess so. But also, his dad that comes around when he comes around, he's not like, Hey, let's go play football out in the yard or something like that.

It's then he was like, what do you think? You know, grateful this is he's like, oh, so annoying. Yeah. I was gonna say there's a few things here.

One of the things first off, it's kind of conservative, right? So basically what basically is just trying to get recus on to the mom, like just listen to your mom. Right? So this isn't the sense of the radical only behavior if she has good things to say or don't listen.

Like he's just like, yeah, you know, she's just listening to your mom. And the way he says to listen to her, he's like, well, what does she do? He says, well, she says terrible things. Okay.

All right, kid. You ever watch plays? Yeah. And you're notice how the actors say mean things to one of them?

Yeah. And then they realize it's just acting. So it's not to be dealing with it. Yeah, just pretend like it's a play.

That's the advice. Pretend like your mom is a character in a play. So not exactly parenting one on one here to me. No, we're supposed to put is the reader supposed to take it as such?

I mean, there's a certain amount of practical matter. I mean, just like counting to stand or something like this or pretending like, yeah, I think as a practical matter, this actually is probably a pretty good advice for if someone's keeping insult on you. But it's certainly not a very satisfying philosophical way to deal with this, I would say. So that's like the first part is interesting.

It's like a disassociation. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

Maybe I found that sort of philosophically kind of not a bad idea, which is like, okay, this person's heaping insults on you. Like, who cares? Like they're just like, it's nonsense, right? And then it's clear.

Lamborghini's response. But I think they bear it easily in that in the case of the speakers. Actors are very easy since in the case of these speakers, they do not think that the one who refutes or reproaches them does so in order to inflict the penalty, nor that the one who threatens does so in order to do any harm. So he's trying to avoid harm.

And it's obviously this argument about the good, right? And that's where I think on the surface, there's in a way something very kind of morally outstanding. Socrates gets his son to be obedient to his wife. And it's very solitary.

But on the other hand, when he goes and it's arguing with the good, he gets all these arguments about don't you think your mom cares about your good and should have been like, give it to these things are good. And I think Socrates, if he had, he doesn't. If he had Socrates might say, yeah, that's why I'm saying being an actor. She's like an actor, right?

It's not really. Like these are, these are not, yeah. So it gets so section 13, right? So yeah, just treat it like it's not real.

So just, and this, by the way, is a good way to get along with people, right? This is in section 12. So what about a travel companion shipmate or someone else you might need? What make no difference to you?

Whether it becomes friendly or hostile? Or do you think that one must also be attentive regarding good intent from these? I do for my part, I say. Okay, then you must, then you're prepared to be attentive toward these, but don't you think you must serve your mother who loves you most of all?

So you're happy, you're totally willing to be attentive to travel companionship mates, fellow citizens, et cetera. Don't you know that the city as well attends to and bring, so like, this is a microcosm, right? You should, you should be good to your mom because she actually cares about you. But then he moves on.

Zenefin is so beautiful because he tells these sort of comic stories, and then he quickly slips into the more serious issues. So you should also behave that way towards the city. You should be like a grateful child to the city. I'll read this.

Don't you know that the city as well attends to and brings a trial in the weather form of in gratitude, but overlooks those who are well treated and are now return the favor. So the implications here, you should be grateful to the city. But if someone does not serve parents, the city sets down a penalty against him and after during scrutiny, will not allow him to rule on the grounds that the sacrifices he offers on behalf of the city would not be piously offered nor would anything else be so he did be nobly or justly done. And by Zoos Dammit, if someone else fails to decorate the tombs of his parents after they have died, the city reviews this too when it's subjected to religious scrutiny.

So mom, parents, city, gods, section 14. So you child, if you were moderate regarding the gods, you will beseech them to forgive you if you have an anyway neglected your mother lest they too not want to treat you well because they hold you on grateful. And regarding human beings, you will watch out less when they receive you and neglecting your parents. They all dishonor you and then you find yourself a raptor friends for should they suppose that you are ungrateful to your parents?

No one would hold that the favor will be returned him after he has treated you well. So imagine and by the way, this is Socrates is about to speak to some companions who have interesting views on the gods. And so if you can apply that same logic that Sarchit is advising his son with respect to his mother to the city and then to the gods as well, there's sort of something I think it's a little more, I don't know what the right word is not cynical. It's a little more razzle.

Yeah, it's a smaller thing. It makes you wonder whether he's in a way testing his son philosophically. Very good. But not just about his mother but saying, okay, look, and it's completely ironic, obviously, because this, you know, Athens is going to put Socrates to death.

Right. And that's right. His own good son. Right.

So according to this argument, right. So if you start looking at this, you start realizing, yeah, just as my mother claims to be after my good, but there's some kind of gap between what I sense is my good and what she does in the name of my good. And then also the city does this and even the gods do this, right, demanding that I do X, Y, C, you start to realize that there's this sort of question of working in these claims, right, of obedience. And yeah, it's strange.

You don't get member keys. You don't get his response, right? Lampies. Yeah.

I wonder. And quite a few of these stories end this way, right, where they're just going to cut off. I know that Richard Demas wants to upset me. Right.

Does he, does he mention him in his apology? I know he mentions him in Plato's apology. The Richard Demas? No, never goes.

Not by any. No. Yeah. That's, I mean, it's interesting because you wonder at the end of that argument, how do you receive his father's execution, right?

Yeah. No, that's a good question. Should we move on to the symposium? Yeah, well, that's a bit of a issue.

We can just quickly move on. Yeah. So this is the midst of the drinking party. There's a lot going on in Plato's, actually, the incentive symposium.

There's some bragging going on and Socrates at one point raises a blue girl. There at the, the street party, there's a girl playing blue and he's like, Oh, see, women are just as good as men by nature. And then, and Tistini says, Oh, yeah, women are as good as men. Well, then how come Socrates, since you recognize this, that men are equal to women, why don't you educate Zen tippy?

But deal with one who is the most difficult of present day women and I suppose of those past and future to, by the way, this is a pretty big insult your wife is one of the worst humans ever to live. And, um, sixties goes through some sort of jokes and, and, uh, you know, it's kind of funny, but basically what Socrates draws the implication that virtue is not teachable. The reason he can't teach his wife is because virtue isn't teachable. And this is sort of, again, this is Zen, I think, comically pointing to something that won't season Plato that's actually quite serious is virtue teachable.

So it's just the sort of soft way that Socrates points to a deeper philosophical problem. And this has always led me to wonder why actually Socrates did Mary's empathy. And I've never really had a satisfactory answer to that. Like what Nietzsche, the floss really marries that wrong.

Why did Socrates marry? I don't have much more on this symposium passage at this point. Because it's sort of, I've got a problem. I've got a problem.

I've got a problem. I've got a problem. This by having, uh, having me read those both together Greg, you may be wonder, right? So the link here is what is the empathy to Socrates and what is the impact to Socrates sons.

Now, to Socrates, the way he presents it there, at least, it's a kind of like philosophic test, right? Can I, can I make myself compatible with the most intractable part of the city, right? Which is the opinion, many, but also even worse than that is the empathy. Like she's just the worst.

She's the worst. All men, all women past and future. Now that philosophic purpose runs, uh, guess his son into problems where his son is like, I hate mom. Right?

So, uh, in a way, you could say his son is a kind of collateral damage for his, uh, his, uh, his attempt to educate. Yeah, his own sort of, uh, philosophical, uh, philosophical, but then I was thinking actually, no, in a way he's given his son a great lesson. Like what's a better way to teach you that? Like there's something suspicious about this quote unquote good and healthy natural institution, right?

Uh, in the, and so in a way, Socrates has benefited himself and potentially benefited his son, uh, by creating a difficult home environment. And maybe this is in Socrates, my, the best possible family. I could possibly make a philosopher both education-wise and physically if I have a child with a difficult woman and exploit his alienation or problems with his mom to get into things. Of course, his son needs to have the right nature.

Maybe he didn't, but it's interesting as a sort of thought experiment to walk down. Right. You know, but an even more interesting thought experiment would have been if, if Plato had conjured up a dialogue between Socrates and his wife or Socrates and his son, that would have been quite illuminating, especially the most, yes. Okay.

Because Xenophon does get presented that conversation between Socrates and Lambert plays we were just talking about. I bet that length. Yeah, pretty long dialogue. Like all chapters.

Okay. But you're right. Plato never knows. You're Confederacy, Xenophon does.

Right. That's a weird you see much more and this is probably why we structured the show this way tonight. I assume. I assume the listeners probably will assume we would speak much more about Plato but we actually focus on something because Zen even actually presents Socrates as family man, much more than Plato ever does.

And I realized real quick just want some all correction. I jumped too quick to the conclusion about, uh, when, when, and just something he says you can't teach your wife, he sort of says why Job, because I want to see if I can teach her or I could teach anyone. But then the joke is he can't teach her. So he can't teach others.

I think that's, sorry, skip to the conclusion of my thought without laying out a little more precisely. That's good. Let's go to Plato and let's get into the relevant passages. What are you recording about?

Nothing. Just how much I love you honey? Go back to your room. The kids need you.

Sorry. I just burst into the dump of that damn. So let's go to Plato. The only time we see one of his family members, or it's actually two of his family members, is in the Fido.

At least two. It's two of his family members. At least two. They come back at the end and it says the people of his family came back.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah. So it's interesting.

I was thinking about this. We never hear a woman speak directly in Plato. This seems to be the one exception, because this filter obviously do a narrative frame, so she's not speaking directly. But we hear a team.

But that's not that's through Socrates. And it seems to be. Second hand. Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah. But even, but even, but even, but even, but even, but you know, but it is strange. It is the one time we get a direct, apparently direct speech. In any case, you also have a staja and then an accident.

There are these female characters who flow by, but not. I think this is the most obtrusive one or like the most direct. But the law is feminine and the freedom. I don't know.

That's good. I mean, Greek are your offices. That's right. That's the reason I had that they were sort of female at the 80 somehow.

Anyway, but anyway, she comes in and there. Maybe this is best to just kind of put a pin in it for the last point. What pin in? I don't know.

Friendship, but she comes in and she's like, your friends are here. You know, go talk with them. And she runs off crying, right? With their baby.

Yes, an infant, right? Young child, right? And so there's this immediate, you know, you would think a man is dying. He wants to see his family.

You know, on his deathbed. In fact, he'd be a senior when soccer is asking what is beautiful. And his third definition that he offers is is to die with your family. Right?

And to have lived a long, true life in all those. And number one is a woman. Yeah, it was a virgin actually. Yeah, I wasn't going to sleep.

Beautiful. Obviously. Yeah. But so it's interesting.

It's this, I think when you see her leaving and then you hear this long conversation, it seems to take place all day really because it begins in the morning and then it sort of ends because he has to drink that block at the end of the day. It's time. He begins with this explosive rejection of his wife and child as who he wants to spend time with. And so I think that's a good prelude to looking at the the role of the family in two dialogues, in particular, which is the Republic.

And then the supposing, great, you watch out. So just, I mean, this is one thing that always, I remember the first few times I heard the fate I was always struck by the sending away of the women and wondering why why is his wife and kids away? And on the one hand, I sort of my first knee jerk and sophomore response was how he wants to do philosophy and send the girls away. But then you sort of thinking that maybe what soccer is trying to do is keep a stiff upper lip.

And so the wailings of the women might actually make him sad and cry. And if you're trying to present this tough guy image, that would make it more difficult. Like, how do you want to spend your final hours crying and wailing or do you want to actually do the kind of thing? You're like, but I will say he does bring them back.

And this is to my point, just a little bit more, 116 B. After he bathes right before he's about to take a hand lock, his children were brought to him. Two of his sons were small and a big one. So all three kids are brought to him, where he dies.

And the women who belong to his household. So it's at least five people are brought to soccer. He's right before he dies. So it sounds like to me, his three male sons, and the women of his house would imply what his wife and maybe a daughter or a female servant.

But the implication here seems to be that doctors might also have had daughters. But the way I read this, therefore, is that Socrates doesn't want to actually do the mushy stuff because he wants to try and present how it would be stuck. But right before he dies, he's like, okay, bring them back. I like to see them.

And by the way, it's played over very quietly. I mean, this is often forgotten that actually the women come back and the wife comes back. Ostensibly, Zenfity is among the women from the household, although she's actually supposed to be. Reminds me of, was it a mid-round when he died?

His wife and his mistress were, so we use soccer size, side piece. Oh, man. So anyways, that's a great point. So there is a kind of tenderness.

So I never thought about this, but in ways that these tears are really sad, right? Yeah, she's really sweet. Yeah, but then when I'm probably a part of the chorus, the soccer's friend, Apollo Doris is crying the whole time. But you get the sense that soccer doesn't take him that seriously, right?

So in a way, his tears are kind of funny. Like, look at this loser who wants to live a philosophic life, and yet he's like, erotically dependent on me. I mean, come on. By the way, which one of you turds just screenshot of this recording?

Me and my freaking undershirt and posted it for the world to see. Well, it says hell's not. So it's definitely a David or so on. Yeah, I was like this.

You know what I mean? So let's jump into the Republican supposing. But let me we're running. No, we've been about four times.

We can keep it going. Yeah. So one thing I'll say, why these two dialogues? I think these are the two dialogues where you see flossing the family most extendedly in sort of brought into relationship.

One is in a political context. The other is a kind of erotic context. In the political context, you see familial and sexual relationships subordinated to the ends of the city, right? Which is to be functioning as well as possible, producing just outcomes.

Now, in the symposium, those same relationships, or you can see those same desires are no longer subordinated to justice, right? But it's subordinated to philosophy, right? And so you get this attempt by Ditima through Socrates now, but by Ditima to assimilate reproduction, biological, sexual reproduction to poetic reproduction, and finally to a kind of philosophic reproduction. And so I think these, there's a kind of...

So real quick, like in a way, therefore, I mean, I realize you're talking about, but in a way, Plato therefore is more of the son of Socrates than Lamperclay's. But I know you're talking about bigger ideas than even that, but even the idea that your actual progeny might be that your students, not your sons. Yeah. So this would explain, this would be another way of looking at that Fido passage and saying, well, of course he wants to spend time with these guys.

These are... To their family. Family. And so that would be a kind of agreement between him and their softening.

Dude, I hope I record an episode of New Thinkery and my deathbed. Can we do that? Can we schedule it? It's next week at the 7th year.

Can we just schedule it now? So yeah, so this kind of agreement, I think, between Plato and Aristophanes, is regards the subordination of, or the sort of the truth, the sort of the introduction, something like that, the friendship. But I think there's this other sort of point of agreement, not between Socrates and Aristophanes, but between Socrates and the city, which is that ultimately these relationships are of a lower order, right? So the city takes an interest in your children and makes certain demands on you even today, right?

Like you think about it even in a sort of open society. They require that you give your child an education, right? They make sure that you're not... Yeah, so there's always formidable requirements, because you are expected to raise your children to be good, upstanding members of society, right?

I remember reading an article a long time ago about some, some people who tried to name their kids, like first and middle-name Adolf Hitler, and it was rejected. Is that forbidden? That's forbidden, yeah. In the United States, you used in Germany, right?

Must be in the US. No, it was very lax naming laws. You can't name your kid Hitler? You cannot name your kid.

No, Alex, I don't think that's... Oh, look at that. The Amendment. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not endorsing maybe. No, I think you can try. You just boiled Greg's plants. Just kidding.

The child will be pretty quickly taken from you, though. I mean, that's a nice... That's a nice telegraph. Well, in some countries, they have very limited lists of names that you can use, and like...

It's like, what the hell are you talking about? It's true. I can't go to a proper man. No, if you go to an Scandinavian country, it's all...

You wanted Martin. It's like they have like 15 names they can use. Okay, these are in other countries, other countries. Not in America.

In America, it's very lax. Blanket, seven, four, swank. You can even kill everyone. Yeah, but in the quote unquote land of the free, you still can't even kill it off Hitler.

I don't believe you. Isn't it this is how elaborate he'll try to get me to name my kid Hitler. I'm not falling forward, okay? I'm not going to fall for it.

I'm just trying to get you to Google it off. Anyway, so this is so off the rails, but you have to raise your children to be citizens, right? And that's the sort of... So I think there's...

You could say that while Fosse is parasitical on the family of the city, the city is likewise parasitical on the family, right? And there's certain expectations that when you raise your child, you raise them to be a good American, a good opinion, a good Spartan, whatever it is. And so there is this pressure from the state or from the polis to form your children in a certain way. And you don't really object by and large because you were formed that way too.

So it's a very insidious and deep psychological impression, right? You want your kid to have the right opinions, not the right opinions according to you are politically informed and so on and so forth. So one way to think about these two portrayals of reproduction or these appropriations of reproduction, you could say in the Republican, the symposium is that one supports the subordinate political ends, but then the other supports it's even that kind of education to do full-sautic ends. Right.

I don't know, I thought I wanted to leave space for you guys to do. No, it's good. Do you think Satchy's actually cared about his family? I do.

I think that Zenithin and Plato go out of the way to diminish how much Socrates cared about his family. I don't think he was an ultimate concern. I think he had higher concerns. Ultimately he made it more for Plato, for example.

But I don't think he was indifferent to his children's well-being. Or his parents. I mean, it would have been more significant if Xenophon and Plato if there was a total absence of any discussion of his family. Right.

It was curious, of course, as we have Plato never, you know, Plato obviously is right about himself, but we don't have any of Plato's family. Zenithin does write about his family in his writings. But not his wife. He writes about only about his sons.