Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group Leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. Welcome Life Group leaders. This is week three of Song of Solomon wisdom for your love life.
Happy to have you on this week's discussion of how you maximize your life group time in connection with this weekend's message. I have our men's pastor and my good buddy, Mr. Tim, Luke, I, not Luke, I, that's the phonetic spelling, but it is indeed Luke. Yeah, you confused our leaders by butchering it.
It's Luke. Bye. If it was just Luke, you add nine and just say Luke. Hi.
I love it. It makes sense to what's happening, buddy. I'm so excited to be on the Life Group Leader podcast and talk about sex. Yeah, man.
I mean, kind of a little bit, a little bit. And this last week you were, you said it on the If I Had More Time podcast. I told you before we started this, you did a great job in that. I mean, it was really cool to hear your voice in that, which leaders, by the way, if you're not subscribed already, if I had more time podcast, essential listening along with the Life Group Leader podcast.
Yeah, we're ready to get more out of the message. But I love that you said it with that. Man, it was great to hear you on there. I had a great discussion on what it looks like to be in pursuit of whether we're in dating or whether we're married.
We need to continue to pursue our wives and for those single guys to pursue in your dating life. It was a great conversation. I think it was a great resource for a lot of people to check out. Yeah.
And I know that's something that you're passionate about, like equipping the men of our church to do really, really well. And it's something that I know you believe in your core, right? If we can really capture the hearts of the men at our church here for discipleship and formation around Jesus that's kind of spilling into the marriages that you can do that. You're going to have healthy marriages.
Absolutely. It's a major passion of mine, especially Eric and I were having a conversation not on the podcast and really was grateful that he went into detail on if I had more time, but also on the Thursday night service with the young adults on really like hand holding on what it does it look like to pursue a girl and ask them on a day. And it's crazy that in today's culture, we're now in a place where that kind of what feels like to love. Yeah.
Like what feels obvious is now something that needs to be taught and we can assume in today's culture, even with the fatherless generation or depending on your relationship with your father, you may or may not ever have been taught on what does it look like to ask a girl out to be a gentleman and to value that with the utmost respect to care for a woman and to woo her and to treat her amazing. And then that continues into a marriage that does not stop. And unfortunately we see complacency step in and we see men that stay in pursuit. And this was the big thing that I said in the thing they say in pursuit, but they're not pursuing their marriage and they're not pursuing their family.
Pursuing other things. Pursuing other things goes off into this county, wealth and career and position. And that is a reordering of their life that unfortunately ends poorly. Yeah.
Well, I love that you're so passionate about it. Not just as like a teacher and a quipper for them in our care care, but it's something that you live out in model in your own marriage with Corey and you guys have a real deal with it. We went on a group date with a bunch of friends a couple of weeks ago or whatever it was and just to see that you're Corey, just you always bring the party man into that different kind of settings and that comes from, I know you guys have a really intentional way in which you pursue each other still in your own marriage. It's just not just something that you say, it's something that you do.
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I think it's got to be modeled. It's got to be, you got to show people that you mean what you mean to your spouse and how you pursue them is in our position. And you understand this, John, it's where it looks at.
Yeah. And we don't do it just because there's an audience. We do it because it's right and we love each other and you got to fight for your marriage. And so it's important to us.
It's good, man. Awesome. Well, why don't we jump in to this week? So week three, so far we've looked at attraction.
We've looked at pursuit. And so this week we turn the corner around to exclusivity in our relationships. So I think the topic is that the title is dating and deciding. So we're moving from, you know, there's a attraction and pursue, but now it's like, no, I'm dating with intention.
I'm dating with, you know, the mutual outcome of exclusivity moving towards the intention of marriage. And I love that Eric is addressing that. That it's not just, I mean, I'm going to date so many different people and find the right person and that is a part of it. You have to do that.
But then I'm going to commit in an exclusive relationship with the intention towards commitment. And so we're going to look at that together now. I think rather than read the whole passage because number one, it's long and number two, it might be awkward for Tim and I to sit, I need an audience and listen, my love is approaching. I can read the man's part.
If you want to read the man's part, maybe, maybe not. If I had more time, maybe we'll do that, but we'll pick out some of the truth and the passage related to Eric's message from this weekend. But why don't we start with the lean in question. This is fun because Tim hasn't seen these yet.
So we're going to get the same reactions that you're going to get when you leave your life worth this weekend. They're not seeing these questions in advance. So what are some epic fail dates that you have experienced? What went wrong and why?
So this is getting us to remember what it's like to date. If you're married, remember that. Anything come to mind for you, Tim, epic fail dates? Oh, man.
I am too many. There's probably a lot and I'm just completely blanking on, I was, this was always like fun, challenge for me on putting together an incredible experience and a date. So I'm not trying to brag, but I was actually pretty good at that. Yeah.
I can't remember many failures. I've failed in lots of relationships, but I can't remember a date failure. Really? If we ask Corey, she'd say the same.
She would probably find one that I've repressed in my memory that never happened. Yeah. But man, I can't. I mean, our core guys first day, I took her to a concert of a band that we liked out at House of Blues and Anaheim.
And so we had it awesome. I can't remember a failed one, but gosh, I'm sure there was one. I'm sure. I'm sure.
Oh, one? Yeah. The one that came to mind early, early dating in our relationship, we read college and Santa Cruz and with Lenny and I and went to the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk as you do and did the miniature golf course thing. And I'm competitive.
So Lindy was destroying me at miniature golf and not much else has changed, at least in athletic and Denver. And I remember getting all frustrated about it. This is horrible. Guys don't do this.
It's so bad. So bad. Trying to have fun with it and then she wanted to show me the scorecard and I may or may not have thrown in the trash before we could tell it the score. So, but hey, almost 24 years later, the things have worked out.
That's good. I've learned some lessons along the way of what not to do. All right. So the passages for this weekend, it's Psalms, uh, saw to Psalms two from verse eight all the way to chapter three, verse five.
So again, quite a lengthy set of passages that you're going to read here. So we're just going to pull out a few of the wisdoms here, both from what Ericsson is teaching is, but just also that's interacting with the Texans that we want to pull out. So a couple of questions here. In the passage, we see the couple's relationship, whether different seasons as they transition from winter to spring, what changes do you notice in their interactions and relationships as they experience different seasons together?
That's one maybe a more focused question, but actually like this more broad question, which if you ask this question, you're also going to unpack the first question is what wisdom do we glean from the passage about relationships? So if you look at the entire passage, what are the things that you can see that are giving us wisdom about our relationships? Lots of different things that are in here. Timothy, you want to write off the bat and maybe pull out that you see from the message within the passage.
Whiz that we can glean about our relationships? I mean, I'm just going to, I see the man, the man's perspective. It's easier to resonate with just, it's clear in the way that he communicates with her, his love for her and the respect and the way that, you know, there's words like, my beautiful one, Darla, and in the way that he affirms her in compliments. So I guess that what I would pull out is his approach towards her is a beautiful model of how us guys should be cherishing, communicating, affirming, and pursuing our wives or our girlfriends or girls that we would like to be intentional in all you dating with.
That's good. Again, I think you also see there's excitement, there's anticipation, there's certainly pursuit there. But mutuality and how they do that, that it's both, both of them executing that. I think that you see also there's this moving with intention where it says, my love calls to me like you're beginning to see this like we're in this together, like removing from just being attracted and pursuing each other, but removing towards commitment.
You see a rise, my dog, Darla, my love calls to me that there are these statements of like, man, we're committing towards each other, which I love. I love that that's, that's in the passage. Also, if you look at chapter two, verse 15, Eric pulls us out during the message where it says, catch the foxes for us. The little foxes that ruin the vineyards for a vineyards are in bloomed.
That sounds maybe just like poetic pleasantries, but there's, there's some real meaning there. Catch the foxes for us. The little foxes that ruin the vineyards. What are they talking about?
It's really, it's about conflict. So yes, the relationship is kind of in the blossoming of spring, but it's not like in the clouds, idealistic detach from reality that there's still, there's conflict and they call out the conflict and they're going to address it together. They're going to, they're going to forge through it. Eric talks about that a lot about how we handle conflict in the beginning stages of our relationship is indicative of how we'll handle it throughout the life of our relationship.
Yeah. Then 216, my love is mine and I am his. Again mutual commitment towards each other. And what you see in the mutual commitment is like a choosing, like a willfully I'm choosing, I'm committing.
And I know you just read the manuscript here, Eric talks a little bit about the myth of the soulmate and how this passage kind of does dispense with that. It's committing, we're committing towards each other. Just talk to me about what you read from that and how you would interact because you sip a lot of guys too about I'm just waiting for the person, the person. We've got his pre-order day, you know, get given me that 111 person.
How do you, how do you talk through that? Yeah, usually when I'm talking to not just a young guy or I see this sometimes in like premarital counseling of this idealistic model of, well, it's my soulmate. There will be no issues. They're like, we complement each other perfectly.
Where most often many of the friends in my life as we talk about our marriage is so often our behavioral styles are different, the way that we handle things are different, the way that we approach the home and how we take care of our kids can be all very different. So the soulmate idea is wonderful in theory and I do believe probably there's some truth in it. However, it's not always this perfect, you know, Hollywood romanticized that have found the one my soul. Yeah, yeah, you complete me that from F.
Yeah. And so I think that's, you know, I think it almost feels like opposites attract that we end up in a marriage or a dating relationship where oftentimes we are very, very different people. Yeah. And that's part of probably what's attraction is like, oh, this person is so different and it's very intriguing and interesting.
Right. And that doesn't mean they're not a soulmate, but it also doesn't mean that you can't work through your differences and actually complement each other in the way that you are nothing alike. Yeah. Right.
I have said to the folks, I'm going to use that. I'm looking for my soulmate. But when you go out of the service, like tell me what you mean by that. Like surely it can't mean that there's one person for every person.
And Eric talks about that. It is message and how it's kind of a logical, right? If you marry the wrong person, then everybody else is going to marry the wrong person because it sets off this chain of events. Oh, no.
And I like what he says it's some, it's more about committing to committing to being one is the emphasis in scripture, not just about finding the one asking the question, can I commit to be with this? Sorry, can I commit to be one with this person? Is a better question than asking, is this person the one? And so it's about commitment.
And if it's like, you know, there's this mythological soulmate, then you actually have really no kind of choice in the matter, but it's more like, no, I'm choosing, I'm committing to you above all others. And I like what he says later too, it's about commitment. And he says this too. It may not be a movie slogan, but commitment in many ways is more important than chemistry.
Yeah. Because you can find chemistry with lots of different, different people, right? It's about actually chemistry is important, but much more important is about commitment to committing into this relationship, this lucid, this relationship. I mean, some ways this reminds me of the first message where character can become unbelievably attractive and that we grow to be attracted to this person.
Although if it wasn't an issue with physical, their character, their integrity and who they are becomes this beautiful picture. And that's where I don't, you know, this soulmate concept feels almost like too much pressure to put it in someone. Yeah. You know, I do think of a friend who almost like had this 20 page checklist of, wow, this person needs to be check, check, check, check, check, which is nearly impossible.
Right. And in that this basically unattainable expectation of the right person, or it's like, no, I think you're not going to find that. You're just simply not going to find that. But what are the top three things that are imperative?
And if you can get there, that's a great starting point. Yeah. And going back, as you mentioned, it's a week one is great that you be those things now. Yeah.
Make that development within yourself is like, it's going to track life in so many different ways. That's good. Looking towards the end of it in chapter three, it says it's a couple of different times, but do not stir up or awake and love until the appropriate time. What are we talking about there?
Well, it is a commitment to purity, to guarding the integrity of this relationship and they're not consummating the relationship, but physically until they cross that line of marital commitment. So there's a passion there. Yes, it's there, but let's be really thoughtful and the guidelines that we're going to set in our relationship so we don't stir that up until the appropriate time. So so much within the passage that you're going to lean through as you lead your group through it.
So to the next two sections, look out, it says, what are the relationship markers that the world typically considers in order for the relationship to be quote unquote serious? And how are those different from the markers that we should have as Jesus followers? Good question. I think there's a few things that Coleser would look to of I think physical consummating the merit.
That's one of them, for sure. Right. That's one thing that people would look to if, what do you mean? You help us up with that person?
How do you know you're compatible unless you've done that yet, which is different than our understanding? Anything else I'll jump out to you? No, I think that's a big one. Yeah.
I think what is the saying? Markers? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Read the question. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It says, what are the markers of world typically considers in order for the relationship to be considered serious? So that could be one, you know, there could be some silly things about, well, you should be Facebook exclusive.
I don't think anybody does that. Does that anymore? Yeah. I think the biggest thing in conversations I have with guys is physical.
Yeah. And you mentioned that, but and then maybe secondary is like, you know, they have to have these three things or things and if they don't, I can't get past it. You know, I think there's, you know, for a guy, a healthy guy walking with Christ. And if it's, if he has one of those that she's a Christian and following Jesus, praise that absolutely.
But sometimes it's not. It's very surface level, uh, things that guys need to work through. It's like, I have a friend who's like, well, I'm not physically attracted. She's amazing.
I'm just not physically attracted to her. I don't want to like go on a date. Who knows how that could change. Right.
And so sometimes it's getting past that initial feeling of attractional physical, that kind of thing that I see most often. Yeah. That's good. Like sliding into commitment, but it is such the normative cultural operation of relationships.
Like, yeah, what do you mean? You're not living together. Like that's almost seen as a, as a given and the way that we live that on the Christian ethic is like very much like subversive to that cultural message of, yeah, you're supposed to like slide into that. You're supposed to be living together before you get married.
You're supposed to be sleeping together before you get married. Hey, you're supposed to like live all your, your own personal wildest dreams and achieve all of your goals before you get married. You're supposed to have that thing, that job and that house and your achievements done and out of your system. So you're a complete person so that when you get married, you can enjoy the marriage.
And we put all these, you know, false markers of what I need to be and what I need to do before I can actually get committed. And we miss, we miss so much of what God has for us, we miss so much growth that is there to do that together with your spouse that combines a marriage. Yeah. I think that as you were sharing, I think about the three big E's is like, okay, are we sexually compatible?
Yeah. Okay. Well, the answer is that is a load of crap. Yes.
And then it's, oh, would we be good roommates? We better try this out and live together and make sure that we are relationally compatible, living in the same and learning each other's, you know, all the quirky things about each other. Yeah. And then the next one's kind of funny is like, if they are, you know, whether they choose to have children before they get married or after, uh, oh, well, we better see if we'll be good parents.
We better get a dog. Yeah. It's like to see if we do not take care of a living being. Right.
Probably a good idea to get a dog. So it's like those things are just kind of silly. Yeah. If you really pull back and look at it.
Yeah, it's really good. And it's not how God designed. And what's behind all those things is kind of this. I want to make sure that this is maybe over characterizing it a little bit, but I want to make sure that everything's going to be perfect, you know, like, yes, that we could do this.
There's going to be the avoidance of like pain and suffering in our relationship. So let's try a little bit at now. And if there is, that's a single to us that maybe we're not compatible and actually, so much of our relationship is working through and growing through conflict, which makes it more vibrant, not just for you, but for others, for others around you. Yeah.
I know that. And I think you and Lindy got married pretty young sure did. Cori and I got married young. I don't know if we were as young as the two of you, but some of that is it's okay to get married and learn and grow.
Oh, goodness. Absolutely. I mean, there was all sorts of things we had to figure out as young adults and being young and married and learning, you know, how to support and care for one another and make right and all those things. It's okay to do that married.
Yeah. You don't have to get it all together because you just won't. Yeah. As part of the reason people are getting married probably much later in line later and later, I think it's now average like late late 30s, probably kind of more than median age and that's just crazy.
Yeah. I do wonder if it's easier to learn things together like that in the confines of a committed relationship that it might be done on learn decades of unhealthy. No doubt. Behavioral patterns, right?
So, yeah, that's really, that's what that question is getting out there. Okay. Let's look in. It says, what foxes are you currently aware of in your life relationship?
That's one. So, areas of conflict that you're growing through your relationship and then where is God inviting you to trust in whatever your current relationship status in this timing and his plan. So, Tim, you don't have to answer these just for your personal as you want to, but how would you guide life group leaders to work through these questions when it comes to, okay, great, let's talk about conflict now in your relationships. What are the things that you're working through or in your current relationship status, whether you're dating, engaged, married or single?
How are you trusting God with this timing and plans? How would you coach leaders through those last two? I think the Foxes question will start there. I think some of this as a life group leader in the dynamics of your group, if you're in a coed couples group, that is a question that could actually be very uncomfortable for a young married couple or a couple that's been married for a long time because to be honest, it's a pretty vulnerable question.
So, this is a more ideal time. Maybe, hey, let's split off. Let's split off and have guys go answer this question individually in another room and the women do the same. If it's a men's group, let a rip.
If it's a women's group, same thing. You can share honestly and vulnerably in that situation because the question on another way of saying, what are the Foxes, what are painful, difficult, sinful things, perhaps that are causing issues in your relationships or in your life? That could be an array of different things. That could be an addiction.
That could be your selfishness. That could be your wrongful positioning of the things that are important in your life and things that are taking precedent in idols. So many different things and you may or may not feel like that as a leader. Let me think through this.
Try not best to openly share in a couple's life. Really smart. I mean, I think the group, the level of vulnerability that's already there within the group, that's really smart. Break out men and women.
I think another thing too is when things are shared, I mean, this is just kind of group dynamics 101, but we can easily break this. People aren't sharing necessarily asking for your advice or your input. So don't rush in into rescuing and problem solving. I mean, I dealt with that.
Here's what you should do. It's more listen to what is being shared, reflect back. It's being shared. People want to be heard rather than they want to be fixed all the time, right?
Absolutely. I think it's another time to remember some of the rhythms of a rooted. And that this question has some similarities, not entirely to sharing a stronghold, so to speak. And so how do we as leaders listen, but then maybe individually come alongside that person that's very vulnerable and say, hey, I would want to walk with you in this, but also play to some of the resources that our church has to offer in this particular area that you're struggling with.
Let's connect to the care and recovery ministry and some of the resources that we have. So those things could come out with this question, depending on how open people get and how difficult situations they're dealing with. Yeah, that's really good. I think you'd also ask the question on the flip side too.
So not only what are the foxes that you're currently dealing with, but you could say, yeah, what are conflicts that you guys have worked through in your relationship? That has more of a kind of a we went through something side, which is also going to be in encouraging to the others in your group. But yeah, as a leader, it's all about how to start met. You'll know what a question needs to be rephrased and how to respond to it.
So that's good. Really good. Well, Tim, thanks for your time. I'd love your input.
Yes, we love being here and love that we can help those gathering in community and live groups. Yeah. Keep going. Hey, lastly, we got something going up for the men that are listening.
We've got a men's breakfast. We'll tell us about that. Yeah, really excited for our March and 9th men's breakfast. We have Jim Burns who is definitely a friend and to the Mariner's Church community.
He was Doug Fields Youth Pastor. He's an incredible communicator. Very funny. He is the executive director of Homework, which is very specifically to help build homes, restore marriages, help dads and moms be great parents and gives all sorts of incredible resources around that area.
And he is no stranger to talking about marriage, dating, sex, pursuit, all the same things that we've been talking about. So this men's breakfast is very much aligned with this series and this conversation. But we get to do it in a setting where guys can have a more unfiltered approach, which will be a lot of fun. So I highly recommend if you're single and dating, if you're married, if you're a guy, no matter what, you need to be at this men's breakfast.
So make sure you register March 9th. There you go. I'm not encouraging equipping, but also fun, because everything you do is going to be a link to it. Alright, like your leaders, thanks for your time.
We'll catch you on your next week.