Hi, this is a pilot with Honest Talk Radio. Honest Talk Radio is a space where we will be sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly in real, raw conversations to try and do our part to reduce the amount of shame, guilt, and judgment so many of us in the case. Our hope is that through these conversations, you will feel supported and encouraged in every aspect of your life. So let's get started.
Welcome back friends to another episode of Honest Talk Radio. I am super excited about today because I get to chat with Jennifer Pasquale with Pride and Grit. Jennifer is a fellow seasoned military spouse and we are going to share all the good, the bad, and the ugly about the things that we have learned throughout the process. Jennifer is a founder of Pride and Grit, like I mentioned, which is an engaging space for military spouses and those who care about them.
You can find relatable stories of hardship, perseverance, personal growth, professional development, and insight into what it means to be part of the military. So I encourage you to head on over to Pride and Grit and check it out. All right, Jen, welcome to the show. I'm super excited you're here.
Thank you. I'm happy to be here. So while we get started, I would love for you to share with the audience a little bit about how you found yourself in this military life. So I was, where was I?
I was living about an hour from a local army base and actually met my husband back way, way long ago when online dating was not a thing you actually admitted to. But I was a working professional and busy and he was actually stationed in Korea at the time but knew he was coming back to Fort Bragg, which is near where I was. And so he was listed as a Fort Bragg person and we connected and started a year-long friendship and then eventually he came back and eventually the first date happened and then the rest was history. So that was 2004 when we first met and then we got married in 2006.
Wow, that's awesome. You know, it's online dating definitely has taken a different route, right? There's, I feel like nowadays that seems to be where everybody finds their match. I wouldn't have known the first thing since Alfred and I met in high school, but who knows maybe my kids will end up taking that route.
Certainly worked out for me. Yeah, I love that. So this episode is all about season's bouts. And so I think it's important we talked a little bit about this before the show to define your view and my view of what it means to be a season spouse.
There can be some negative connotations around it. And so let's go ahead and define what it means to be a season spouse. Well, and I think, I mean, in some ways I think it's kind of maybe changed a bit, but for me what I have always thought of as the season's spouse is kind of that spouse that has been around like eight, 10, 12 years, has seen a few things, been through a few things, has had the opportunity to probably do a deployment or probably maybe have a child without their spouse there, right? So it's not so much that they know it all or they figured it all out or they have kind of perfected military life.
It's that they just have some experience to draw from through the years that they've had. So like on Pride and Grid, I talk a lot about about season's spouses. And for me, that audience is really like the folks who are kind of past that 10-year mark, what I used to call the point of no return, right? You cross over that 10-year threshold and you're like, well, I guess we're sticking around.
And so it's really the folks who are kind of settling in for that second half of military life as they work toward potentially retirement. And what does that look like and how do they navigate that and how is that different when you're sort of locked in kind of at least mentally locked in versus maybe those earlier years where you still felt like you had a little bit more sort of choice in the matter. Right. Right.
I love how you've mentioned that being at season's spouse doesn't mean that you've perfected military life. I think there's a little bit of a maybe even an expectation of people that have been that have been in for a while that they know how to do it all or that it's easier. It's certainly not easier per se. I think it's just different.
You learn what to what is a big deal versus what you can kind of let roll off your back and not focus on some of the smaller things, some of the bigger things. And we talked about how being a season spouse, we don't want it to be confused with being a senior spouse. So tell me a little bit more about what you think about the differences are. Yeah.
And this is a conversation I've had a few times through my work as well. And I think for a lot of people those two things have kind of a natural overlap, but to me they're very different. So in the sort of, you know, the season spouse we've already defined, but when I think of a senior spouse, typically that is someone whose service member is in some kind of leadership position. And so they're serving in, you know, they're potentially if they choose to serving in sort of a leadership role of their own, whether that be as an advisor to a unit or, you know, heavily connected in with, you know, an SFRG or something like that.
So yes, there's overlap for sure, but I see them as very different. But I think the needs in a lot of ways are very, very similar, right? It's it is how are we navigating that second half of military life, you know, with some, with some grace, hopefully with some honesty and feeling like we're still able to kind of carve our own path and, you know, walk that for ourselves and not necessarily feel like we everything in our lives is about military. Right.
Yeah, you know, I often hear, and I have also said the same things before, like when is it going to be my turn? And so in the second half of military life, I know there are some younger spouses that are kind of feeling that already, but those of us that have been around for a while, you know, when we first joined the spouse world was very different than it is today. I've kind of I've seen and I don't know about you, but I've seen a shift, you know, there are a lot more working spouses today than there were when my husband joined 19 years ago. We weren't quite stuck in the 1950s of like being the quintessential housewife, but a lot of us did stay home, raise kids.
And then we get to this second half of the military career, like you said, and then start to wonder, okay, well, you know, I'm in my 40s or maybe even older and when is it going to be my turn or do I even want to turn at this point in my life? You know, so all those questions that come about, what would you tell your younger self? Knowing what you know? Yeah, no, I think you're right.
Like I do think there has been this evolution and much like you, you know, when we when I was a younger army spouse, I felt like I was I wouldn't say I was the only one working because I know I wasn't, but sometimes it felt that way, right? I was I was really fortunate and had a mobile had a mobile career and was able to work remotely in the profession. I was in and was able to just move it to where my, you know, where my husband was and be able to keep that. And that felt like such a gift.
And I think you're right, like now there's a lot more of there's a lot more mobile. There's a lot more virtual work. So there's definitely a lot more opportunities for folks. I think now than there was then, which is great.
Yeah. And for me that I would tell my younger self are not there's probably some professional elements for sure. There's definitely a lot of personal elements. And I think from a personal standpoint, one of the things if I could go back that I would do differently is is I think I would be a little bit more sort of forthright and honest from the beginning with my peers about where I was and how I was.
Because, you know, especially if you're if you've been around, you know, kind of 12 15 years, then you sort of weathered some of those really, really hard back to back deployments extended deployments, you know, we went through that and those were really hard years. And I don't remember really feeling like there was, there was conversation around what was difficult about that. I didn't necessarily have mentors that I was looking up to that were saying, you know what, I'm kind of having a hard time too. And so I didn't always feel like there was the space to say, okay, I need help with this or I need help with that.
And I didn't what I didn't learn early on was to ask for help. And some of that was just how I was. But some of it was also what I wasn't observing, like I wasn't necessarily observing the people older than me who'd been around longer than me saying, Hey, I need, I kind of need help or I'm kind of struggling with this or, you know, or whatever the case may have been. And I think had I seen that and had I felt like there was room for that.
But I think I kind of bought into this idea that I just had to be strong. And if I was strong, then I was not telling my husband about the things I was struggling with, right? I was, it was part of that whole narrative then where you, you know, you don't want to impact their ability to focus on the mission. So you hold back how you're doing.
And I remember with us, there was a point in even in our marriage where he sort of has a look at me and go, look, I, like, I need to know where you are. I need to know what you're doing. And you have to trust that I can handle it and then I can still focus on my mission. You needing me or you needing anything doesn't, doesn't prevent me from doing my job.
And so I think like that's that that is something I wish I had, you know, we had figured out as a couple sooner and I hadn't sort of bought into the narrative that no, no, you need to just, you know, you need to suck it up and handle it yourself, which I was capable of doing. It wasn't that I wasn't capable of it. But there was a cost that I paid for doing it myself. It was a cost I paid by not, by not reaching out and by not including other people in it.
And I think there's a level of community that comes with that that sometimes you miss out on if you're not reaching out and you're not sort of raising your hand and, you know, and talking about what's good and bad, right? Like it's not that it's all hard. There's a lot of really good stuff. But I don't know, we think we all just sort of fought our battles on our own, you know, and we didn't necessarily back then, if you will, we didn't necessarily fight them out in the open.
And I think there's just a ton of value in that and the older I get and maybe it's like being over 40 and you start to care less about, you know, perception and how some of how you look and like, you know, like you start to worry a little bit less about what people think and more about what you think about who you are and where you are. And I think that's part of what I've learned now is, no, if I need something, I'm going to just, you know, it's okay. And I'm going to admit that I need something. I'm going to admit that there's a hard season.
Yeah. And I know that I have the ability to get through it. But if I can have, you know, if I can bring other people into that conversation, then we all benefit from it. Exactly.
We all benefit from it. I love that. You know, I have done it for the course of the year with my masters. I've done a lot of research on mental health, obviously getting an master's in counseling.
And the military community does have in general this strong demeanor. So we come into the military life, we take on this spouses, my kids, you know, the service number as a family unit, and then as a culture as a whole, we take on this strong persona. So it's if we ask for help your week, if you share with your spouse that you're struggling, you're impacting the mission. If you're not able to do something, you're a failure, you know, and it's this, all these limiting beliefs that we've told ourselves, which I think what I hear you saying is that that's not true.
Those are not necessarily asking for help does not mean weakness. Sharing with your spouse does not mean you're, you're going to make it harder for them to do your job. It actually makes them feel like they're still part of your life when they are gone. And so sometimes I have to tell my husband, I'm like, look, I want to share with you, I'm struggling.
This move has been very difficult for us. It's 13 move in 19 years. This one has been extra difficult because there's a lot of things that we're doing as a family that we've never done before, and not to mention, you know, global pandemic. And so I've had to be very open and honest with him, which was difficult knowing that he was learning a new job.
He's working for NATO right now, which is not in a realm that he's ever done before. And so those first couple of weeks, I didn't share because I was like, no, this is my job. I normally I get the house put together and I get the family all set up and he learns his job. And it was just creating, we were at odds with one another consistently.
And then finally when I broke down and shared, you know what, I, this is what's bothering me. This is what's happening. This is what I'm struggling with. He was able to say, you know what, I feel that too, or blah, blah, blah.
And then we were able to come together and come up with a solution, which benefited all of us. Like you said, it was not just benefiting me. It wasn't, you know, hurting him. It actually made our family come together and grow stronger.
I forget when it happened, but at some point in, I don't know, I feel like it was probably five or six years ago. But I remember we sort of finally had this, you know, epiphany. We're like, oh, this is how we do this because what always happened for me is that I would, you know, there would be a valley that would come at some point, right? Like it just does or something that's hard.
Yeah. You know, there's, there's back to back, back to back to back to back TTYs. There's just something where you're like, I'm over this, like I'm ready to have my partner in our house again. And I start, we started sort of calling it what it is.
So I would, you know, I would tell my husband, look, I'm just having a like, I hate the army day, right? I don't, I don't, I don't hate the life that we built. But today I'm just having a guy here the army day. And he knew that that meant he just needs to listen.
He didn't need to solve anything because he was, you know, his tendency is to jump in and try to find a solution to the problem. No, I just need you to like hear me out on what is frustrating me right now and how it's impacting me. And then I'll move through it and then I'll be fine. But it was just sort of creating even the space within our house for that kind of honesty to say, Hey, like this is not today isn't okay tomorrow.
We'll be fine. I will go through this and I'll wake up and tomorrow, you know, I can, I can handle it. But today it feels, it feels too heavy. And I was thinking of something else when you, when you were talking about recently, there, you know, there's something I had taken to him and he was like, I got it.
Like I know it's hard. There isn't anything I can do about that particular thing, you know, so it's also this really important communication, you know, if you're not having those conversations with your spouse and you're not being honest about where you are and what you need, you know, there are plenty of times where I have thought something wasn't fixable. And he's like, Oh, no, okay, I can do this and this and I can, I can help in this way with that particular thing. And then other times where he'll say, yep, I hear you, I know it, I know it's hard.
I can't fix it. Like I can't do anything about that. But we have to be having those conversations. And with our children, but also with our community at large and with the other spouses, so that there isn't this idea that, Oh, just because, you know, Jen never has a hard day.
She might, you know, she's so strong and she can do all this and military life's easy for her. When in reality, that's not the case. It's, it is, you know, we enjoy it and it's doable and there's a lot of things I wouldn't trade for anything. But it doesn't mean there aren't hard moments.
And I think sometimes when we don't talk about those in a way that's constructive, we give that impression that, you know, everybody should sort of like be able to be this strong, right? Like, you know, someone else can do it. So if I can't do what they're doing, then there's something wrong with me. Exactly.
And that's the part that I think becomes really dangerous. And there's a way to talk about what's hard without sort of wallowing and without always feeling like you're negative. You know, I really, I really think there's a place to talk about it and be honest, but also then focus on, well, what are the resources to help me move through that season? What are the people I could talk to to help me find a different way or to see how someone else whether that same thing.
So as long as I think we're focused on the solutions and focused on moving through and continuing to move forward, then there's a ton of value, I think, in that, that honest place. So I think, you know, for those of you that are listening, there are newer spouses, you know, find someone that may have been in a little bit longer that is living life. And so you can draw from their lessons learned. But then for those of you that are seasoned spouses, you know, share because the younger ones need to hear it and so do your peers.
Your peers need to hear it because, again, I mean, 19 years we've been in and if I had to feel like I had to carry that strong persona this entire time, I would have crumbled at this point. I could, you know, you can only keep it up for so long. And I think sharing gives fresh perspectives. Sharing also gets the person that you're sharing that start reflecting on their own life and then you get to have a productive conversation over it.
And it's not like you said negative, it doesn't have to, sharing doesn't have to always be negative. And so on that point, I want to talk about sharing the positives. You know, military life does have some, I think a lot of what out there focuses on the negative of military life. There's a lot of information that's like, oh, military life, military spouses are, it's hard for them because of X, Y, and Z, which are all true.
I would love to spend just a minute talking about some of the positive things, growing your family, things like that. Yeah, that's a hard one. I mean, there are, to your point, I think the biggest, probably my favorite thing about military life is, and I wouldn't say deployments are my favorite thing because obviously they're not, but I feel like what one of the things that I really value about the experience is I feel like my husband and I, so we've been married 16 years this year. But I feel like we've lived like a 30 year marriage in 16 years in that, in that I feel like what military life gives you is this opportunity because there isn't always time, right, to have the conversation the next day of the next day of the next day, the next day, because there's a training or there's a T.D.Y.
or there's a deployment or whatever the case is. But what we've learned about each other, what we've kind of created as a, as a life and as a marriage and as a family, I feel like is like a 30 year version, right? Because you, you're sort of forced to, to not, to be, you know, to be honest and to figure out how to communicate well, because you're not always going to have these long opportunities to do that. And you have to really like, you have to be able to communicate in small, small doses.
And so it has to be effective. And if it's not effective, it makes the whole process harder. Right. So I value that a ton because I don't, I don't know, like if we were both civilians living a civilian life, would we be, you know, would we have built what we've built at this point?
I don't know. I can't say for sure. But I do feel like we learned through, like through the deployments, we learned so much about each other about the value of communication, about how critical it was to both of our happiness that I wouldn't trade that for anything because I don't know that I could have created the environment to cultivate that so quickly. So that's definitely something I've loved.
The, you know, the positive pieces around relationships is definitely evident. I mean, you know, military spouses are amazing. And some of my, you know, some of my really good friends that I go to are the military spouses that I've met. And it's three and four duty stations ago, you know, it's that idea.
You don't have to be together all the time to have that connection and for that connection to withstand years and years of separation. And sometimes like, you know, we may or may not even talk, right? If neither of us are really good at connecting. But the instant we get back together, it says if no time has passed.
And so it's like all these best friends around the country. And that part is something I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't trade for anything either. And I think, you know, the other big blessing. Oh, go ahead.
Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just going to say is I think, you know, I've learned so much about myself through this process. And again, it's impossible to separate it from what it would have looked like in a civilian life.
But I feel like there's a lot that I learned that that was because of this life and because of the challenges. And so I, you know, I have to be grateful for those as well. So yeah, those are kind of those are probably the big three. Yeah, I love those going back to your first point, I think with being forced to have conversations or learn to communicate in ways that maybe you wouldn't have if you were both civilians is because we you can't take life for granted in this in this world, like in the military lifestyle, not to say our civilian counterparts do, but speaking specifically for military when our husbands are going on a deployment or TTY and we don't know when we're going to talk to them next or get to see them next or when they're coming home, you have to grab those opportunities and have those conversations.
And one of them in particular for my husband nine years ago with his first appointment was having to talk about a will, you know, I have friends that are in the civilian sector that don't talk about these things. And believe me, I didn't want to. I didn't want to talk about my husband's will. But having that conversation was actually very healthy and very productive and I couldn't wait for it to be over with.
But having him leave on a deployment, I did have that comfort knowing that we had things set, you know, even finances, like my husband, you know, we've had to get very key managers, you know, so the finances are in our family. But I've had to sit down with him and to know where everything that how to act as everything, you know, what to do if something happens. And all those things and again, super hard uncomfortable conversations, but the military and some ways have forced us to have them, which gives me peace of mind. Second on your second point relationships, you know, I think it has helped me become friends with people that I maybe necessarily wouldn't have been drawn to in another life.
And people that are very different for myself, which is awesome because that's a great learning time, you know, to be able to have these hard conversations about politics, not everybody agrees or about faith. And I have friends that are not, you know, they don't believe the way I do or they don't think the way I do. And it's very, it's so fruitful because we get to have productive conversations. And that's one thing that I personally have loved about the relationships I've cultivated over the years.
And then personal growth and development, like you said, the military puts you in unique situations. I mean, not everybody in the world is watching their husband or the father or their children get on a plane and, you know, not knowing when they're going to come home or even how to communicate with them. Or my, you know, I have some maybe friends where their husbands are on submarines and they're in the middle of an ocean. And so the only means of communication they have are email, which is not even that great.
And you don't even know when you're going to get one back. But because of those unique situations, like you said, we've had to get creative in a way that we communicate. We've had to get creative and make sure that when you have the opportunity, you're doing it well. So I share those, those, those good parts, you know, in a lot of what you were describing is you were seeing the good out of the bad, you were finding out of the difficult situations, which I love, which to me is very much a military salving.
So overall, so far, what I've taken away from our conversation is there's no shame in sharing. That even if you've been a military salves for 10 years plus, that we, you know, we don't have it all figured out and we still need support just as much, you know, as, as our younger counterparts, but also that our conversations are just a little bit different. We're having conversations about what does retirement look like? Is it going to be like when our kids go to college?
What are some other, you know, seasoned sales conversations that you've had? Yeah, I mean, some of the ones that are starting to bubble up for, you know, for us, you know, the one we said we'd never do, right? So geobatularing is a topic that we're starting to talk about because through the longer, it seems like the longer you stay in, the shorter your duration at different assignments might be one place. And so that, you know, that becomes difficult.
And when your moves is not something that anyone, you know, I think finds valuable to the family. And so that, you know, that is something we've been kind of talking about is what comes next and what does that look like? And do we, for the first time ever, you know, consider living separately while still trying to be a family so that both of us can pursue the things that are important and we can provide some stability. So I think one of the things I'm hearing a lot about from senior, from seasoned spouses is really this recognition of both the impact on kids in terms of just stress of the overall cumulative stress of military life, the cumulative stress of moving that is happening.
And even, you know, figuring out how do you, you know, if you wanted to play sports, how do you do that when you're in high school and you're moving around a lot? I mean, those are, those are not new questions, right? Those are things that have always been a question. But in terms of things that I think people are starting to, but I hear people talking about like, geolashular is one of them.
I think stress is on kids is another. And I think my career a lot is around the retirement question. I was reading something this morning where it was, it was part of the survey that I had done and someone had said, you know, how do we, how do we have the conversation of the kind of it's my turn, right? How do we have the conversation of the best thing for the family is, is an end to this military journey, but the service members not ready?
What does that look like? And so that was, you know, someone had shared that in the survey as one of the things that they're sort of grappling with. And so, you know, for some folks, retirement is clean and easy. You know where you want to go.
You want to go back to where your family is and you make that happen. For others, it's kind of a blank slate and trying to figure out where to retire and when to retire and how to time retirement, potentially with your kids, both for maybe college entrance and where you might win in state tuition or, you know, some of the questions that you have to start thinking about, you know, you should get to that, to that latter stage. Those are definitely ones where folks kind of feel overwhelmed by having, those are big things, right? Like those are not small decisions.
And those have, those have an impact on sort of your trajectory for the next path that you choose, you know, if you choose to work beyond retirement, you know, figuring that out as well, I think for the transitioning service member as a big deal. Not to mention just financial implications. Sure. You know, a lot of times they dangle the caret, oh, well, if you make the next right, you could pretend to do three more years, you could retire at that next, you know, a grade.
I know all of those things that you said, you know, my husband and I have had to have a lot of the conversations and, you know, coming up to 20 years next year and having a junior in high school and, you know, the one year assignments, we just came off of a one year assignment and when the I'll be open and honest with you, when we first moved here, we were on one year orders here and no, I mean, we've been here three months now and we were getting the email notifications and we were getting, you know, my husband's getting the update talent marketplace. Like what do you, you know, phone calls from previous bosses and it's like, wait a minute, how can we even be having conversations? We just got here. I think we've gotten everything leveled out, but that was causing a lot of stress.
And it was conversations that I personally didn't want to have because I may live in the moment kind of person. And so also personality matter, right? My husband's a dreamer. He likes to dream and think, well, if we do this, if we make this choice, then maybe this will happen.
But you know, none of that dreaming has ever actually come to fruition exactly the way that we planned it. But he doesn't care. Like he still likes to do that. And I, that stresses me out.
I'm more of a let's just live right here where we're at right now and then we'll figure out everything else as it comes. And so, you know, you mentioned one of the big topics was the spouse is saying, you know, hey, it's my turn. How do we provide stability and maybe the service members out ready to hang up the uniform? What about the other?
What about the opposite? What if the service members are the one that's ready to hang up the uniform and if the spouse is like, no, that's my community, you know, what if I lose my identity? And that's a big one. I personally work with, you know, the identity piece in helping military spouses formulate their own identity outside of their roles and responsibilities.
But those are some big, big topics. And so if you're new listening, oh, sorry, if you're new to this world and you're listening, you're having some of those conversations early, you know, you, it doesn't have to go the way that you plan it, but at least you've opened the door for communication. So go ahead. Sorry for interrupting.
Yeah, no, I was I'm trying to remember what I was what was last my turn. I thought, but you know, you were talking about kind of the my turn thing and it's funny because I remember the conversation we had, you know, over dinner on an napkin at some point, right? But which was what does this look like? And this was like maybe pre kid or like first kid.
And it sort of said, okay, you know, you're going to take the next 10 years that gets us to 20. So this must have been like the tenure mark and then, you know, then I'll take the next 10, you know, so we had kind of made this commitment, right? That that was what would happen. But it ended up very much like what you had said earlier, which was we got to that sort of magical point, right?
And we're at probably year 18 and he's looking at me going, so do you want your turn? Because if you don't want your turn, like I'm good. And I can, you know, I'm still enjoying what I'm doing. I still, you know, he's happy to continue staying where he is and continuing to, you know, to serve.
And so I had to kind of look at that and go, okay, what do, you know, what do I want and take that time to figure out what that looked like? And I, you know, and I kind of didn't know. And that was part of the issue is I felt like I had, I sort of lost that professional identity and so I didn't really have a particular reason to say, no, no, I want my turn. So I didn't, you know, so I said, no, it's fine.
Like, you know, you keep doing what you're doing. We'll keep, you know, we'll sort of stay on the strain as long as, you know, it makes sense for everyone involved. And that's kind of how we've approached it now is that as long as everyone's good, right? Then we're fine to stay.
But I think the whole identity thing is really important because I think it really does play a role in helping drive an honest conversation about what you want and where you are. And so I think, you know, going back to your very first question of me, you know, if there was something I wish I'd done sooner, it's probably invested a little bit more of myself in, in that identity, whether it was personal and professional, but spending a little bit of time earlier on to kind of establish that so that it wasn't such a hard conversation and it wasn't awkward because I didn't know. And so I didn't have a good answer. And it worked out and it's fine.
And if I want to take a turn there, I can still, you know, I can still take a turn, right? We can both still, if I've learned anything about where sort of the military is shifting now, it's that the ability for, you know, for both individuals to carve out a career is a thing. It doesn't mean it's not hard, but it's, I think it's so much more a thing than it was 20 years ago. And I love that.
And I do hope that, you know, people who feel like that's what they want will, will find a way to have those conversations and build that identity and, and find that fulfillment there. But they gotta be honest, right? You gotta be honest about what you want and you gotta be honest about what you need. And, and that I think is kind of the first step in that process.
Absolutely. I think for me, what would I tell my, my younger self would be exactly that is the same as what you said is invest in yourself. Don't be afraid to, you know, go back to school to build a business to, you know, think outside the box, because, you know, there's a reason why I got the point where I'm at now and I needed the growth process of all those years behind me, but not everybody needs that much time. But, you know, I think the big thing is I do believe that the way that the world is shifting with technology and with the military and support and the resources that are out there, that it is absolutely possible to be your own person while still supporting the service member.
And that, that is something I'm so excited about and excited about the people that are the new spouses that are coming in, because I don't think you have to make it, you know, make a decision that's either you or it's me, because as a couple, I think it should always, the conversation should always be about both of you using your gifts and using your talents and how can you best do that together? Is it the military? Is it outside of the military? I don't know if that's individual to each, each couple, each family.
But like you said, half the conversation, don't be afraid to have the conversation. Over the 19 years, we have had so many times where it was like, you know, well, I'm sick of the one. I have to do all the childcare, you know, and that was something that I internalized. And then when I finally vocalized to my husband, like, hey, I need your help.
I'm a full-time doula. I work really weird hours. I need your help to make sure that our kids are taken care of. They are, when you're not deployed, you know, they are equally your kids as they are mine.
And that was a really hard, ugly conversation in the beginning. But when we both let our defenses down, we were able to have a productive conversation and come up with a solution. And so I would encourage those of you that are listening to have the hard conversation, come to it with grace and not in defense. Yeah.
Sometimes it's harder, but yeah. So as we wrap up, if you could give one piece of advice, I am I tongue-pusted today, to the season spouse that is listening out there that's facing some of these hard transitional topics, what would you say to them? I mean, I think the biggest thing is just have the conversation. You know, don't assume that others aren't sort of grappling with the same thing.
Because chances are that they are and you can actually learn from each other and you can help each other see things differently through a fresh perspective. So I just I continue to feel like those conversations are so important for our mental health, for our personal growth. And for really being able to, you know, what I don't want to see people do is I think when you get to the sort of the season spouse point is if you're not engaging in kind of that sort of productive conversation, right? Is you can I think you can get a little stagnant and you can and it's easy for resentments to set in and it's easy for some of that negativity to set in.
And instead, I think it's so important to just have the conversation so you can continue to move forward and not feel so alone. You know, I think to your earlier point as season spouses, sometimes there's this idea that and I think I was raised with it, you know, raised through the army world that I was at this point, I was supposed to know what I was doing, right? I was supposed to be strong. I was supposed to have it figured out.
I don't, right? I'm learning it every day. I'm making mistakes every day and I'm growing every day. And I can do that if I'm actually talking about what some of those pain points are and I'm allowing other people in to help me through that so that then I can do the same for them.
Absolutely. Couldn't have said it better. 100% agree and I thank you so much for your time for being open and honest for sharing. I know for me personally, talking to you always makes me feel better, it gives me fresh perspective.
And I love no matter what season or stage of life you're in, sharing with others. You know, we talk about it a lot with mental health issues with depression, with anxiety, with losing a child. Like those are conversations that should not, you know, unless you choose, but you know, it's okay to have them because there are people out there that can be encouraged, inspired, and motivated through your stories. Absolutely.
Thank you so much for sending the warning with me and I can't wait to chat with you guys. Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you for listening to today's show.
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