Stephen Dubner Returns Again

Welcome welcome welcome to our expert expert. I'm Dan Dobbner and I'm joined by Stephen Padman. Hello. I'm returning gas one of our favorite gas I'm a free friend.

We love him. We don't need any game plan. No, he just wanted to talk to you. And he's so interesting It's a lot of thoughts.

I love him. He's like polymath. He's cute and playful. Stephen.

I ran into him Minutes after yeah, he was on his way there to me. Yes, I ran into him and he invited me to hang out with him But I had to pass the opportunity why I went there to work and I had to complete it. Did you see his yes? Yes, he's a pretty strong economics Oh, okay Stephen Dobbner is the host of free economics radio and call other the free economics books Which have one many words and four millions of copies around the world 25 is the 20th anniversary of the free Economics radio check out free economics the new addition drops November 11th and his new television show early 2026 Which he is not committed about the title currently its title better in person So keep your eyes peeled for both of those Stephen Dobbner projects.

Please enjoy our faves This episode of armchair expert is presented by Apple Pay you know, Holly shopping can be a hassle But Apple Pay makes it so much easier But if you're shopping online or in store look for the Apple Pay button or contact with symbol at checkout No more digging for your wallet or filling up long online checkout forms It works at millions of places including stores websites and apps. This means you can spend less time at checkout and more time finding the perfect gifts Pay the Apple way turns apply Do you want or not want that you can have them a course The summer Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It depends on the intensity of the input. Yeah, you can affect the output and I've been trying to do more and more What you're saying not like just take a problem and turn into an opportunity. There are a lot of business Things like that.

Yeah, there's sometimes true and I think sometimes inspiring for some people some of the time But I think we all have the ability to control our free mind much more than we do simple Yeah more so we live about 40 minutes outside Nashville and so once or twice a week We would drive in the national go ahead great restaurant and we don't get the cars of family and we drive there Listen to music and I'm a midway there on our like six time. I said a person I said email with insane. We would never by 45. I mean if we have to we'd be complaining the entire way But I'm like this is really fun family time.

It's like Confederate money. You're playing with different currency Yeah, 45 minutes is what we're doing. It's a vacation. Yeah Yeah, I can better money.

I didn't mean like I was little you still come across Confederate money. Okay, I haven't printed during this award apparently And it was worthless, but people tried to say like I'll be five Confederate dollars like 25 cents And so we take it 25 minutes on this work has actually got us to a version of you know Came off of the gold and silver standard in the north our modern way of printing money back by nothing really started during this award Is that right? I never really known all that much about the rest of the world Which I feel kind of silly about as an American who likes history well enough and you know Medium smart person but lately I've been reading about it in kind of sideways ways And it's just like when I think you have to know everything about it You learn in school and then converse said this which was a lot Or not he's ordered all I observed the emotional highlights maybe now and starting to kind of see it for wow what it was So my route was the grand biography by Chernobyl insane new right? This is a month right?

No, no, no, no, it's much when was the grand beforehand before Hamilton you're complaining We're not wrong. I'm sure I was Hamilton. No, I think Hamilton Where's the day I we need to know I Got atoms Great. I love that book.

I have to see what that's a lot of the most boring and interesting Well, it's a lot of time. Yeah. Okay. Now this was my myself walking downstairs I knew you were coming and as I was coming out the stairs I found my something over over Steven Dubna and I wanted to ask you do you find that people in or nearly want to say your name in English?

No, no, no, no, no, no We all like to say god now and so people go Stephen god not Am I way out too far? Except my response is you're totally bonkers and wrong. Yeah, no, yeah But now I think about it. I have this one close friend with three kids who I used to see a lot when they were little another grown They have kids of their own but in that family I know is it ever I know they say it in the accent I never really registered Why am I so inclined to say?

I too was like what are you doing? I'm gonna chase it down and then our next interview three years just tell me what you kind of right people do that to me Wow, we love having you here. I love being I love being for it See you guys. I know it's always a joy.

You and Angela. Yeah, I just go. Oh great. They're coming.

I have nothing to do I know you know people like me I mean I look forward to all but I'm also scared of everyone. What do you mean for free? I interview could be between zero and eight people a week. Take things and they could run from one to two hours But I could be an academic who's been writing on topic for 30 years.

I read one paper and I have researchers We have producers on the show We're great. They're working incredibly hard and they create for me for every single guess I'll have a prep of like 10 to 20 pages with all kinds of excerpts citations It's so we all do a lot of work beforehand But if it's someone I don't know I have reason to think that they may be anxious nervous video makes it very interesting I'm trying to show it around Well the reason I'm particularly palpitating right now thinking about this and I've even forgot the original question I'm starting a TV show called better person. Well, maybe we'll talk about that Of course look at insert of titles But when you learn to do something in a given medium, so I start a music within music I was very comfortable. It takes a long time to get there and became a writer within journalism recording It takes a while and they're podcasting out done for 15 years.

It took a long time I'm very comfortable every time you think about doing a new thing. I don't know about for you guys I feel like what should feel cumulative. I know a lot of experience. I know a lot.

It's not cumulative It's like scratch pan. You probably paid again. This should be served with a moist to tell that Like a face-to-day actually face-to-day is not a bad idea You just write out and then dry you could bend down and use a face-to-day I'm not doing that Angela Duckworth actually was on an episode we once made it was a live show We did we had a kind of game show for a while and the episode was called would you eat a piece of chocolate shake like a poop And it was about this notion that once you think that something once you think of something disgusting mode Yeah, really hard to flip it. Well that power of disgust is its own.

There's so much work on discuss right It's even what causes genocides. It's the number one thing that's leverage in webinine Do we know that I mean that's when you say it discuss the things weird about it is very necessary for hygiene We're not eating the wrong stuff. Yeah, but when it comes to discuss in other people Wow, and we're seeing a not low level of global Disgusting people I don't know if we know the real level, but it feels not low We talked yesterday on a fact I decided it's fresh about poop and of course we talked about all animals eat poop except us Yeah, we're very He said that it's a true most of them do because they need to pick up each other's got my own oh That's a whole other story that I like yes, and so it's very very weird that we don't watch the time You know You know Weird is that it is super asymmetric. You know, it's right once again.

You're right Some rise that she said we should be eating her own poop You've already got a context of me. It's very weird. We don't which is much different than we should yeah I feel your version would actually be more in senior. It's very weird that we don't eat our poop Well, why I found cream of fish a dumb.

I don't know what he would say that right You're so it's kind of smart. It's very smart But what I got curious about is how recently is this if we're seeing all the other prime Yeah, and my quick theory was I bet when we were hunting and gathering societies in a group of hundred and we didn't live with animals We have all these diseases. I bet it was fun And I bet once we started living in civilizations people who did he could drop like flies because there was so much bacteria in all these diseases I'd love to know the change in numbers. Yes The meeting number of days that it takes for different species for their poop to lose the smell because you know if you come across dried dog or goose poop No, yes, the mechanism is clearly old factory Look like chocolate Oh, yeah, we mentioned a rabbit The rate that's animals great ways in its shocking some animals are shooting 60 times a day.

No rabbits 200 300 times a day to 300 times That's just a market sitter made here I've seen that bunny pooper scooper Right I want to say is a preamble is and I got half of it up I just love when you're on and honestly any topic that comes up I'm probably gonna be super interested in your take on it and so in that vein instead of me doing my normal research I just kind of came up with some topics I want your opinion on I like that It's not gonna be called better in person But one of the descriptions you made which we both feel you on deeply is your goal of better person is instead of just interviewing an expert on topic This is far more conversation where we hope to learn what kind of human this person is which is always what I want I'm just ripping you off You're in the dream of money. No, but I knew my new things Oh, yeah, I'll take if you're in the same as I think we have something like that And then as an experiment they'll be last is I've never done this. Yeah, it feels unethical I asked AI first time ever ham interviewings even thought not for the third time to tell you don't say his name Like whatever What are some topics that you could have fun? I do that a lot I think AI is an amazing I mean I'm using this much of one fingernail of the gigantic herd of robots But I think what you did is normal or will be normal I think yesterday for a big guess You just like your first experience as well Yeah, I thought they were all kind of what engine we're using which yeah So I happen to use one called perplexity because I like it to really simple interface that pulls from a lot of models But I think it's probably what I like about it is you can push it subtly and it keeps coming if I say tell me five interesting things about that Shepherds will be blah blah I say what's your five?

I know those I want something more along lines of X Y or Z But the X Y or Z could be like animal mineral or vegetable could be a lot more emotional stuff I'm not more a motor racing so I feel it's a great research Yeah, it's not a substitute It's like when computers are beating humans in chess and go which is very complicated You know people were as they always are worried with these new technologies people will now stop playing chess In fact, it had the opposite effect because no one wants to watch two machines like I like you Yes, you may like me and even a little bit of my ethical justification as I was like well I'm gonna tell you this and then B these are just prompts for you in I am on a cut and then that'll be the real thing So it's like actual meat and potatoes, but I gotta say so it gave me 10 and I like to like seven I have a very much ones I want to hear your opinion and then I have a good relationship with mine It then said do you want me to come up with five or six speed round front or every questions like I did Yes, you're not from out of nowhere Pulling up for your search for guys like you I said jealous now because mine doesn't do that I'm offering more more and then it said do you want me to design an arc of how you could lay these? Oh, my god. Do you think he knows you're celebrity? I'm the host of our chair.

I know but I'm saying maybe he's like nervous and you want to do well. Yeah, this is fascinating. Do you think it's unethical? Okay, so I've heard the guy who tried to ask his AI account a million no you must watch a video Of course I think he refuses to do it which is a little startling It's like she can why we keep doing yikes, but then he's getting so madder.

He's being verbally. He keeps it don't be difficult Maybe he calls her bitch. Maybe he gets very mean and is it ethical for him? Yeah, do we mean to this robot?

I guess I could think on it more but my first response and say not only is it not unethical because we know that the emotion that's being The street is not a human American and we also know that the people who rate that code and make that machine They understand the way barriers are shiftable and so on and additionally I would say it's a really nice use of technology to absorb maybe someone's hostility that doesn't have to be then directed to a real person I didn't end up saying that you have to imagine he's sitting in his later in the room. I'll control going you fuck him Yeah, but it's just weird because it is we're shopping and you're like me. She's getting yelled at and she's nothing you're a fucking computer I don't like you have anything. That's definitely a decent Yeah, it's like abuse a lot more I don't abuse people say patience for him.

Yeah I like the NFL and I often think of it especially at this late relatively advanced state and our civilization as a proxy for war Everything about it's very work. Also pageantry around it now But I think if these guys are willing to go do that and they get compensated well But it's still it's an unbelievably hard difficult and physical thing to do They're willing to go do that for their entertainment for they're making a living for their family And we get to watch that and feel like it was more like and if then that diminishes our I play real-world and it's a great thing. So similarly. I would say this bozo Yeah, that's probably I agree with you the whole way So what I love was Malcolm did revenge of tipping point this year and I loved it so for economics This is the 20th anniversary.

Yes, I'm a real 11 for gonna have a new edition Yeah, but I just don't be super clear. It's the original book. Yeah, that's fine with I wrote a new forward But I did one interview before you I'm sorry And the person who was lovely lovely said you know what you tell me about all the new things in the book I said no, there's nothing you know The forward in New Jack right and then she said well we could talk about it as if there is a lot new and I said that would really be wrong Yeah, I'm first and foremost right. That's what I said as it's what I am So I take all that stuff seriously But you're right.

We're publishing a new edition which has a new forward which did take like six months to write the page Right because it No, it's not rusty. It was a forced occasion to replay this 20 year movie Which has been amazing, but also it was tied to I mean I'm having a problem in my home office of getting rid of all my archives I've said lists from my band But I can't throw them away. I was staring down those boxes one day in my office face with paralyzed dread and I got a text from Steve Levitt my co-author and freakin on it. He said happy 20th anniversary of publication was the day I remember the day Yeah, I don't know how he's not a sentimental guy So this is what I ended up writing the forward about but honestly when I'm feeling around this 20 year anniversary is what anybody feels I get older even you you're young as you get older you have such a different reckoning appreciation for your own past and past other people Things mean more life is cumulative.

It's not ideal this way now instead of that It's like I feel this and all those other things here And in some ways I think you get wiser I really enjoy that you get more experience in some ways there's inevitable sadness because that is the thing that I've always tried to just really Nor I'm not even I'm a kid. I'm 62 and I'm the youngest of eight and I've always been like the protected baby boy And you're starting to go He's very healthy. He's a former first pilot. I think it could be a solid Wow, I thought was really cool about the revenge of people.

He starts by kind of acknowledging So hey, this was written in a different time in different contexts and all it was a different person Yeah, and so let me look back on it now in a different context a different person What do I agree with it? I kind of take down pieces of what was really cool and brave and interesting? I probably could have Or should have done that maybe Was the broken windows check right now? We know that was bullshit.

Is there anything that you look back in the book? You know, I wouldn't write that now So I will say that what Malcolm says pretty close to a lot of the things like field of economics in that you're a much younger person But also like he said the time is different. So I did go back and read the book I liked it I was very excited to write that's right our main incentive was to be truthful and be interesting It was really simple and have fun both Levitt and I don't think it's those two seriously We reported and researched and fact checked in Don every eye so I wasn't concerned about that We did have one thing shortly after publication that we found out had been wrong Which was a kind of terrible thing The guy that we wrote about as having heroically gone undercover in the Ku Klux Klan and exposed them and he did do a lot of that type of work But he kind of conflated his own identity without another guy who did the undercover stuff and he wrote books about it We interviewed him he'd been in all these histories of civil rights movement and Klan It turned out that he had exaggerated so I never heard or read a word about any claims like this But when we published our book for comics 2005 someone wrote to us we'd been a collaborator of that guy much later We're on a book together and this guy had had access to a set of very robust and valuable archives So we're essentially pride archives. They went on the public.

So I went into those archives Look at everything found out that this guy who was saying that our main character had exaggerated was probably very accurate I went to our subject this guy's name is Sits and Kennedy is gone now But he was quite old then and I said I need to talk to you about something kind of important He was in Florida. I flew out of that confrontation to be anxiety or you excited to know things I am 99.9% I'm right so I envision what's he gonna say he's either gonna deny or it's gonna be like oh shit Yeah The one I hadn't considered for myself was going to trade by him I wouldn't have been inappropriate anyway I do and I said nice tell him the whole story. I told the guy who gave me all this information He knows it and he just said no that makes sense on which I was I was convinced that we were right so I ended up writing in the New York Times a column that explains this They made but that's what journalists do that's what writers do if you had or if you make a mistake Anyway, that was a long way of saying that I don't think there's anything in economics that we would do really differently for the people We were then we would agree right there's a great spectrum of completely Yeah, in some ways you might look at the exact same data and maybe a very similar point But it might be a little bit over here to the left or right I agree And I think a good example that is probably the most famous claim from the population between legalized abortion crime There are kind of two tracks of that the first track is that Steve Levitt is based on Donahue who's now at Sandra I believe a legal seller and done this paper before I met Levitt This is how Levitt kind of got on the map that showed a causal relationship between the legal station of abortion and the crime rate It's not a complicated argument It takes a long time to describe only because there's a kind of collage of evidence that goes into making it up But the argument essentially is that abortion often serves as a form of birth control that's not really right preventing and unwanted child It's a decision that happens often when it would be mom feels like the time and place are not right Yes, and I would make the umbrella that large because there are a lot of things that can go into that Yeah, maybe you're very young maybe you've already got kids and the time is not right Maybe you were your family are in bad financial situation. Maybe you're starting to get divorced from the father Maybe you were right.

Maybe you live in a place with so much violence. There's so many So there's a lot and there's a body of social science research that argues unquestionably that when a child is born into a wanted situation Let's call it. We're the family is a plan. Well, not even plan.

That's a serialized room because I'm saying the eighth of eight Was very love my birthday only was just right about the day I came home from the hospital happy they were to have You know I mean I four can you one I am one to be written a lot of letters to me all about the day Well, this is a great Wantedness is good unwantedness is bad. Yeah, the odds are if a baby is born into a home that baby is not wanted There's a higher chance that that people have a bad outcome and I say bad outcome I mean lower education higher crime lower income. So this is in arguable Okay, so the argument from C-11 done The queue was that the legalization of abortion provided away to reduce unwantedness and if therefore you reduce unwantedness What is one of the many other effects you might have down the road? Maybe if you were people to make crimes because they're growing up in a better circumstance The crime one is so juicy in some ways because all of us have been watching this plumbing crime right now Everyone's got it.

This is broken windows. I would get another stab at how it came up The one I heard that was absolutely shocking was in Sweden. I'm pretty sure Sweden Someone's gonna be they had a reduction in these small petty crimes and they really want to know what they were doing that it caused This and after studying it for a very very long time what they ended up finding out was people just not reporting them people So we didn't came to accept it as just a life you have things thrown from your car and you just accept it It's like oh, wow who's gonna think of that the same amount happening? They're just not being reported.

Yeah, it's such a dynamic Yeah We control that I think I see that you're example is so good because also we've all been heard it into and almost what's the cattle Pron you know electric shock like our brains are just getting prodded every day to be more binary interthinking hate love Yes, no black ways that are whereas one of the great strengths of the human mind is that we're not binary thinkers We're extremely variegated in time and dimensions. I am astonished still. I love talking to people I love hearing how they're just these little did not just happen in your muscle Just like mine but they come to something totally different. We're actually discovering when you talk to people is what the ratio is of these binary Yeah, we also more on the fact that we're just to the polls It's binary Like 39% or I'm 46% favor of the death.

That's what's interesting You also then discover the course of a conversation What is the bend diagram between you and that person and the types of synapses that are fired? That's where I start right when I'm researching someone I'm just trying to earmark all the things that we have in common That go off there right? Oh, you're just like we know this experience. How did that go?

I love for all the ways in the time of your year when I do that instead of having common Advice like you know something I don't maybe mine is bad yours is good You're looking for things in common so that you can have natural conversation makes perfect sense I don't know what you just brought me to the actual thing I most want to tackle with you that is potentially most dicey Do you think that we have entered a moment where? Silence is the biggest protest imaginable I don't participate very much in the online world I use digital stuff all the time But if we think of the online world as kind of like a second conversation is happening for many people That's not a conversation I really get involved with I'll be honest with you and therefore I'm aware of it because I have people who are in that conversation But I'm not really in it and so this sounds bad But one of the many things I don't like about living deep in that online world is that there are these compulsions that don't really seem to Drive with actual human nature Your expectations that if you don't think or say or feel a certain thing about it could be anything Then you're gonna be either helped group or thoughtless up and I think that that's just never the way that humans have thri When I look at human history I'm not a great story. I love history. I love reading it.

I love talking to historians because I'm like a child I just don't know that much I didn't really like history when I was a student at all because I didn't get what older people say about history being instructive to me you read history because you had to and sometimes it happened to be interesting You would remember the interest in this now I read history because it's the reason that people read philosophy It's a reason people read older religious stuff the human condition has changed a lot But I don't think the human has changed that much no and therefore it can be thrilling intoxicating scary Etc. Etc. To see what history has brought for us. We can remember now Stay tuned for our next story if you dare this message is brought to you by Apple pay Dax and you believe it's already fall this year's flown by.

I know right before is my jam Remember that farmers market we hit up last weekend. Yes all those vendors with their yummy apple cider is a big pumpkin That's a big pumpkin artisanal apple cider. Don't forget. I miss Mel fresh made goods heaven But here's what blew my mind so many vendors accepted Apple pay it was so convenient.

I love Apple pay Everywhere I saw the contact with symbol I just double click the side button on my phone to bring it my card and then just a quick little face ID scan tap boom Yeah, Apple pays been my MVP this season by festive fall treats and drinks and you know I mentioned to find the best fall theme Latte and count you know I do know that how's it going that maple one you were telling about something pretty insane It was so good and get this you can also use Apple pay it lots of cafes no fun For your wallet just double click tap and set it works at millions of places anywhere you see the contact with symbol In stores or see the Apple pay button online and in apps exactly make it easier to enjoy all the ball goodness Which I'm telling you so for home Apple pay me to the purchase of perfect decorations online right from my iPhone I just have the Apple pay button check out double click to authenticate and boom payment complete no long check out forms No fuss all festivities have never been more fun or easy pay the Apple way turns apply Very specific example. Yeah, I think you are going to dinner with you are having dinner parties You are talking about and I think there is this absolute insistence that you declare whether you are you hate Israeli I'm over here going guys you present me with the two I know I know these options they both fucking suck you should be in the fucking suck we should not get drug into the situation I'm going and now we all get sucked into it, but I do think the most dangerous thing is they go like absolutely not I'm not saying that's right. That's right. The most I can tell you both like suck So I'm glad you specific all the conversation with anybody any time about anything Yeah, I like to do especially in the last 10 15 years or maybe 20 I've met tapes of people that I never thought I would have met just because of the nature of what I've ended up doing professionally And I became a golfer and that introduced me to a world I had these preconceptions about and I was so wrong But when someone comes at me with a binary or a circus against us what I try to do what I probably do to mostly as I say first Let's define terms That's a character I learned from academia.

Let's take it away from the fascism if you're gonna call someone in economic terms a communist or socialist Let's define terms 25-10 mark 19-25 Vienna. It's a big difference now Yeah, yeah, so this goes back to I wonder if you've ever come across this and talking with Angela or anyone else in that round I'm probably gonna get all these facts wrong But in my memory there's something called the illusion of explanatory depth Basically if you go to a family gathering, let's say right people know you know them You have some prior expectations Just hope them start asking them about hot button issues whatever you think they are people get pretty heated pretty quickly But then if you take one of those hot button issues Let's say it's gun control or immigration or something and ask them in a non-abnotch's way We just are asked them to explain like we mean exactly by border control So it turns out that people just don't know what they're talking about most of the time But we all pretend to the reason I don't like that we pretend to in order to have a position in order to be in a tribe I want to get out of I think this idea that we've all allowed ourselves to be heard into two political parties Even more sense that people feel unique and expressing that they mean that people are on the control Another point I heard from everybody on your fucking team you all have the same fucking point come to me when you've had an original thought I also think I'm sorry That's just hard to follow because you just have to be the room I know Very well That's very good because you don't have to pick a side, but if someone cares about something that's also okay Of course, no, of course You're saying that is not of course This is a great example. We would have to agree on terms. Do I not want people to care about stuff?

That's not at all what I want What I don't want is for someone to be heralded as brave for repeating the already agreed upon tenants of their tribe in public It's not conversation. They didn't say something in converse. They broadcasted. Yeah, the talking points of their tribe People so great not brave all mean brave isn't going against your tribe.

So the opposite thing is been agreed upon That's bravery the other thing is grandstanding but there's a reality to the world in which you do need a big It's like what we heard about protesting it works because you see that there are so many people who do think like you think Who are willing to stand up against something else and you get them both by that So there's a reality that voices and numbers help so I agree with you and that's the emperors and clothes analogy The secret is given that's totally true What if they're already completely known that we already know we know we know so the person that's standing up continuing to yell it's ordinary Knowledge we all know we all know now this is a pointless endeavor in addition to the arrogance that you think you have converted somebody You haven't converted anyone not one of the people yelling just converted someone from the other side So it's pointless. It's not brave. It's raining and it's further Semininess in the stripe. It is the actual problem.

I glad you came to me for help because it's obvious There's an erect inside of the difference here. I think they're like to say all honestly I think you're both right. I wouldn't say these things are opposite they plainly can cause this what I hear you both saying is that one of the most painful Things I know for me. I think for everybody is to be somewhere between being misunderstood and being accused of something you didn't do Mm-hmm.

That is a great human injustice and always has been we all the cues of things We did we all got off with things we didn't get caught But when you're accused of something you didn't do you feel this outrage and I feel like that's the temperature of it far into the spectrum It does feel like it's threatening your existence It's our way The truth is your actual sense. I thought I was looking at a world that made sense and I had one in ninth grade maybe in school So I was a good student came kind of naturally We had good brainpower in the family and I was young as a bait So I kind of knew the stuff before I got to the grade which was handy I knew the French just as being in the family was like being in school I was decent at math. I'm at test. I had a teacher bring it back to me like maybe say after class to the teacher She was convinced that I cheated on the test.

I got like a 97 on the test I never cheated I'd people cheat off of me But I was also very shy as a kid so if I weren't I would say what are you talking about or I would have said to my mother when I got home Like this is going on with Mrs. So and so but I didn't know that I was very shy and obedient willing to take a beating It's okay. Oh, that all that maybe take the retest got a 98 one better which is surprise me It's like a thing to test before and you know what she did after nothing Because she was now nothing that I was so pissed because it felt like an adjustment I feel like now the world is full of people who have some version of that feeling something is being done to them Taken from them said about them or done to taken from set about people that they know and love It's a strange mix of reaction here. Where are you at personally on this?

We would all agree the most divisive moment in my life of it I'm in the give a stranger hug mode anymore of that type of emotion argument anger frustration all of which are legitimate Content I want to get the content. You know Arthur Brooks. He's a scholar trained as an economist in a bunch of books We didn't ever set with him on a book you wrote about contempt a few years ago I just read listening to it I think I want to replay for our show because you're all searching like what to say about the moment in my show for you Radio, we're not a new show at all. We have this here's the matter that I can I give for two years ago I'm slow But I'm always looking for ways to write or respond to the world We're in but not to the moment because that's a whole thing When you know me the moment you almost certain to be reacting.

It's just not me. There are a lot of people who are great at it We thrive at it. I hate it. I hate it.

I'm bad at it But it's a really valuable thing The thing I think of is that wonderful man from the woods at the Institute and we had him in so beautiful and he repairs marriages Oh, I know you're talking about Yes, they got men in the system This is in point in the fact that he could watch a couple in tells therapy talk for six minutes and predict at a 90 plus percent rate Whether they would get to order not in the single component was contempt So having learned that when I think about the level of contempt right now and ultimately we're in a marriage and we're not breaking out Sports and all the time unfortunately Yeah, so given that we're married for life. Can we afford to have contempt for each other? I don't think we can't there's not just a couple They have a great family My first answer your question going back is you can't care there's a quote I like by John with the late great UCLA basketball Coachete seems some absurd number of college championships in a row But was also known to be a great it sounds like such a good leader teacher coach He really really affected the men that he coached many from a very famous and many from him and he plays afterwards But anyway, he said two things about character that I like this character something I think about you like character versus reputation. Oh exactly So you did your homework.

So this is from John when I could never make this up He said two things about character one of them is fairly famous I don't love it. He said character is what you do when no one is watching That's fine. It's got a little bit of a godly moralistic feeling to it I grew up in a family where that was a feeling and it's not my preferred mode of feeling anyway The other thing he said though is that people should worry more about their character than your reputation because reputation is simply what other people think of you Yes, whereas characters who you really are that to me is the essence of it Maybe that is the same as this other quote about characters What you don't know that can be so shocking right? And what you worry about the reputation side the harder it is to soak your nurture That's the way I say when the advantage of getting older is not just actual history But personal history understanding how people are how people change what you need to accept about other people and about yourself I mean all the good characters really important being really truly loving and kind other people is really really really important all the other things that we do for reputation or money that they're necessary They're understandable they're fantastic in moderation and vision is great the most dangerous part about the worst parts of our Attention economy.

I think is that they incentivize people to be on time simple. We know that the science is pretty proven But we gotta stop that back to the marriage things. I think it's relevant. I do want to say though in case I'm listening It's in a bad marriage by whether the odds are very very very very good There's someone listening isn't a very bad I think I said I need to be more than happy.

Yeah, and none of us should be saying that with the laugh and our voices It's just a recognition I think he said we're married. I know it means because we're one country We have to make it work. That's the reality But also abuse from one another is not okay and you would say in a marriage if that's happening Kalee right where do you go in this case though exactly? I'm saying you got a reverse engine Your use is happening and I think part of why it's getting so hot and as I just because there's nowhere to go and there's a Views it's getting so intolerable.

I don't know what the answer is, but that's the reality of this man I'm sincerely asking what do you think the solution is to that I'm not smart enough to know I can say I don't know I have a solution. I don't know that it would work. I thought of what the solution is it is a one-year moratorium I'm talking about this you still though. So do everything you do for one year You put down the bloke.

I don't need just for one year And I'm working on enacted by your carryout by whom on whom though right? We don't want to read that could do that, but if I had a magic one right? I have to ask a wish I would ask everyone to try one year I'm not talking about it But I would be very curious with the temperature would be if we stopped broadcasting our allegiance to a side I'm curious what that would be I think it's a good I also think that knowing what I know about human behavior when people recognize it have a habit that they don't like Even if they want to get rid of it and we could only many many bad habits that we've all had to be like the other heart And their different stages or dimensions of addiction. Let's say it's really easy for someone outside of that mode to say just stop it Right, obvious answer from the 30,000 foot parental view What everybody knows that if you're doing a thing just stopping is hard because it's an activity It makes you feel a certain way.

Well, there's stuff. How's it happening? There's a vote at the end of every month I would agree you should stand up and try to get people to go in vote in the direction you want But just given the reality that there's no outcome of the talking until the election happens There are things that happen from people talking it does tap and Disney just felt a big hit from people Yeah, and so they made a decision action does have impact and I kind of want to take even Advice and say like what is the definition of politics if we're saying that we should talk about it What is the definition of that? Yeah, so I wrote down how much I believe this is metastasized I think if you're an alien and you're looking at us and you said, okay, so you're diet politics If you're vegetarian you're probably a liberal if you're probably probably You're all a real choice if you're electric or probably liberal but within the electric if you drive a Tesla You're probably a liberal if you're probably a liberal you're probably a liberal You're probably a liberal if you shop at Lulu lemon you're a liberal if you shop at American Eagle now You are a Republican if you drink by light versus course your health.

Is that true by light or something? Well, I had the trans. What's course is it? I'm gonna say I'm gonna say I'm gonna say I'm gonna say course I'm saying course is not going to go right here.

That's what I'm saying course What's the problem? But like post the trans scandal. Yeah, I would say but like is now I just say this is terrible I hope they're not your sponsors But I think anybody's thinking about their course into better But your health if you believe in psychiatry or your probably people even vaccines that's a political decision Patriot isn't if you're American flag that's political school. Do you believe in private homeschooling?

That's probably Republican versus policy TV shows which shows you something literally every single thing now represents a Commitment to your tribe. I think it's terrible. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way. That's what is political I'm saying literally no you're a drag that label into the rest of our eyes My exercise is that it has spread to my point if you're saying all of that is political Then how do we not talk about politics if it's everything now?

I think it's crazy that people are doing that But if you're saying that's true then how well anyone taught well what will happen is if everyone has to stop talking for a year About I try to look as it's Republican well the Tesla's gonna slowly stop representing it only liberals want this when we stop Reinforcing these objects having political identities in everything in our life and we're constantly broadcasting a political identity If we stop that I do think slowly we can depolitize the world around us and then just go vote I think this is back to what we're talking about a lie about taking control of your own state of mind Here's what I think without evidence I think that most people who make everything political for themselves or for other people which we would agree has a bad effect I would argue that most of them probably don't really think that much about what they do it But they've been suggested into it. There's currency for it. There's incentives to do it But there's a certain point at which you feel like it's not having a good fact on your mind I'm on here's an example This is also hard to prove the one argument where the crack epidemic went way down Not away down was because the demand fell so much because the next generation of user saw their older siblings are in circles He said oh my god. I want none of that Yeah, that's kind of the way I feel about social media now My glimmer of hope is like all future generations They will hate with the one before them did and I just pray that they're all watching But I think younger people than all of us are already where we're hoping that we yeah I think we're the head center.

Yeah, yeah We also have more leverage to make chaos The other zos of the company were the age group. So we decide whether we are going through the line ourselves I also used a choice. I visited Scotland recently for golf It was amazing. I went with members of the skull club of mine So it's kind of a group effort and it's something that few told me 20 years ago.

You're gonna be wearing a great red club jacket I'm going to be going to be going to the club I think it's a new 1700 something and it's just really if you have vacation about this when you're all life and you're telling me That's what I like but I like this for you I think of life as anthropology for me coming to LA is like oh my god This is my man. I look everything is different every telephone wires different every building the angle of the sun It's being in a museum so anyway over there. What was really interesting is I met a lot of different people from all different kinds of realms There is a plain spokenness in Scotland that just doesn't exist among the people that I usually hang out with here Because here we're usually like you're just like well So and so does this then they're lying with that and if they're lying with that that means that and over there a lot of conversations We're much more like that's a rock don't trip over it. This is why people not making show I don't want to make an about episode.

I want to make an of episode I feel like way too many of us are spending way too much time doing about thinking what do I think about this as opposed to what am I? What am I doing? What am I a comp. And you can decide that as an individual The problem is once it gets up into the corporate realm where we are all as individuals customers Anybody thinks that Twitter is their friend because it provides an open platform to do this in that Yes, that's partly true most people by now understand that we are the product of our dream It's like in your times where I used to work which I still love and it's a huge I think it's still one of the greatest papers ever will be I think a lot of times coverage in last 15 years So you're in much more geared toward telling people how they should think about a particular news story as opposed to what the story is I completely have a what the story is piece But then it'll be surrounded and followed for days and weeks sometimes by opinion pieces I don't really need opinion pieces But the problem is that it's very very very muchable.

I'm glad that your time is thriving a previous You know I guess CEO or publisher Mark Thompson came in as far as I can tell you saw that news is important But if we can sell recipes and games and we can pay for the news and that's a reorientation and that really worked did that make the news slightly less Robust serious I think it probably did or it's just the nature of how journalism is changed over time But even in your times and our social media and our friends that we run into we all are pushing each other into these Ridiculously tiny little silos and I think it's up to every individual to say like you know that would be next generation Crack use like not for me. I would rather go surfing go read a book Go play golf go hang out with friends and do something and live a life that is of rather than be an observer And think this is what that is about right for a lot of people including myself one thing that's hard to not do or that comes naturally At least to me and many other people but not all people but I've tried to just Diminished a lot is the impulse to judge the impulse to judge is I think a very very smart healthy evolutionary trait because everything from life on the So I'm gonna eat so you have to make judgments. You know to any comment on your you guys have dug into that thinking fast and thinking slower to Viable ways of assessing things but often when we make a consequential decision that should be thought through slowly We make it fast so that's really that and I feel we do that all the time internally But then externally too and when your first response is to judge something as literally on special positive negative versus and this is what I try But don't always succeed just observe and figure it out because I'm a writer because I was very shy as a kid I've always been very comfortable just being on the edge of the back wall and just watching and listening and taking and trying to figure out Who's up who's who's mad at who you're trying to impress who and I feel like if you do that the very least what you're gonna Do is you're gonna start to empathize and empathize and I mean sympathize I mean sympathize I mean you can feel yourself in that person position and that for me at least changes the calculus I have a very overlapping thing which is I encourage people to have drastically different opinions When a different opinion than your signals a character assessment about the owner of the opinion right We've got to be quite then you've decided that the way you think is proof of character if you had character in your good person You would think this way so just say oh wow. Yeah, they have a different opinion But I grant them they want this place to be the best your in pursuit of what they think would be best for everybody I can grant them that we totally agree on this route there That is healthy having a difference of opinion and having to make this course that is wonderful when you are making character assessments of people because they don't Really, I think you're in trouble.

I agree. You want any eye question? Yeah, I do can I just say though? I love this conversation It's really exhausting You're kind of just getting to the core of what it means to be a human at this place in times and we're on our system We all think no humans very felt like that's totally Bloaney and you can argue the fact that we are so distressed about the things that are bad is it fine because the human species Always trying to improve and only way you can improve is to take on problems right?

Yes It's exhausting in a good way, but I feel like all of us the planet. I feel it's kind of exhausted It's been a really wild disorienting several years That's my other one too. My two glimmers of all over the new generation who'll just be blind that we get this and then also I do believe people fatigue and I'm just praying that we're approaching the fatigue right where it's like we all throw our hands I'm just doing all this things anymore By the way, I think that is also really invalid I'm not quite even a caffeine knife you drink the coffee before and you wake up refresh Okay, this is an AI question or is this a next question? No, it's an AI question.

Yeah, I mean behind an AI question Why do we keep rebooting the 90s? Is it comfort food or a cultural panic button? I need some terms Fearier just the dynamics of retro branding why people buy the past whether nostalgia can actually predict the future those do sound much less Like you and you're like yeah, we're fine We can talk about that. We can kind of like having two robots play chess.

Are you happy that yours just so much better? And there's so I'm glad you think so. I hope that wasn't yours because that was a demonstrably mushy question It did curtail one exactly to you It said you think there will ever be a free economics will go written with an AI and what we even tell readers Oh, they're pushing You see that shows integrity. It's not afraid to have you debate whether this thing should exist I just almost just proves this fear that they have consciousness.

I'll try to protect my response question people Let's define terms what say I everybody's now calling AI one version of artificial intelligence, but it's very close to many other versions We've already had and we'll have so when I first moved to New York I quit playing music. I was going to graduate for writing and I didn't have any money So I remember doing word processing. It was as big as a Buick. It was a massive machine You had to put in these big fobby discs for each function There's like the create a file floppy disk save a file floppy spell check but spell check and saving back It's all these things were some version of what we think of now say I just basically using compute power to do stuff that we've already known How to do but do it better more efficiently is a dictionary not AI It's not my intelligence.

I'm looking up with somebody else figured out and they get passed on from generation to generation to a cumulative thing Which is really wonderful like the reason that we don't have to learn calculus to build a microphone is because generations of people did it Now we buy it like $200. How nuts is that so what does that for you stuff to do? That's the same question asking out I Stay tuned for more of our marks. If you're there It's like there's the old argument.

I thought I made up turns out I didn't make it at all But I argued years ago in some episode that when the AI's come for all of our jobs But if we can turn into essentially pets the way dogs have been turned into pets because dogs used to be work animals All these dogs were different kinds of really hard work. We didn't need that work anymore and we kept a whole bunch of dogs We love it going with our people. Yeah, I just pee wherever I'm fucking at The first time that you were recommended a book on Amazon based on a previous book. What's that or Netflix?

Watch you at the second time. Oh, that's kind of either weird creepy wonderful in the third time like that's what it Yeah, and that's the way all technologies are this is something tangent But when you get used to things quickly with the psychological habituation that could be a bad thing too Yeah, because you start to lack gratitude for things that are pretty much awesome I didn't go pretty much anywhere. I want this country turned on the faucet and drink it That wasn't 100 years ago What's used to it? I'm such an as a watch of these movies when my daughter's like little women They're speaking mansion everyone's dress up.

You know they had to go on the art gym They're full of Literally it's not available everywhere now so forget that long. Even places in this world don't happen It's not everywhere. I feel like we always do this We without the prosperity chart and say you see things are getting better, but there's still so much anger and suffering frustration And again, what are those are those the right metrics to evaluate? We talk about something slightly better for five minutes Okay Show I don't watch a lot of TV.

I watch your way show with a rabbi. Where's you did? It turns out everybody thought it was really good I think one thing about that if you want to have a funny do so I go into my GP because I have this disgusting that Tony And unrelated to the car buckle welcome to the I will tell me they're related But at this point I said gross. Oh, no, I don't know.

Look me back cancer. I'm gonna go look at he's about to look at my ugly Tony on He goes up. Oh, yeah, we got here. You tell your wife She's our shickser and I go you got it.

I will you know I got across the hall I'm friends with my back to get you in right now. He's a bit. I just want to look at it And I go sounds great. You know I have a referral and right now on you watch me I've never met this man.

You're not gonna believe this. I sort of got through both my sock now He starts looking anyway. Oh, wait. Tell your wife.

She's our shickser. And did you talk in the hallway earlier in the night? She's our shickser both doctors Oh, my gosh, he's got some stuff. My wife is there.

I love the fact that both these doctors are comfortable enough with you They're having those great to go to the field to go to the field The guy who feels like it feels like some information It feels like I went to the doctor say to me I love that episode you did about blah blah blah blah and my husband is a huge fan of whatever it was hockey something She said I wish I could tell him about it She said well, I've been comfortable telling him I listened to it because you're a patient Oh, my gosh, he might ask me like why you listen if you got a crush on this exactly You don't really this marriage like this is your husband. You can't tell your husband. You have a patient who makes it like this. Unfortunately, it's all good.

I really respect it. She takes patience integrity See, I love when you come on. I'm really wanting you to do it 100 more times I guess it's my last question. I want to end on this 15 years into this for coming.

I'm sure you do Do you have moments where you're like I can't do it. I kind of need to hear that you have those moments Okay, sure it is yes, but this is defining terms. I don't say I can't do it. It's hard I think making anything that you care about if you're making dinner for your family if you're starting a company If you make a thing like you're making here like I make if you care about a thing It's hard.

That's just the way it is so that's number one number two is I love love love what I do and I'm very grateful for that because I know there are a lot of people in the world that do the work They do because they need to earn a living to take a family. I respect that more than I respect Yeah, I like I was kind of like play I feel a little bit guilty about that But I don't know if you're gonna feel guilty about it the hard part is even with all the tools You know, I you with a great staff even with more experience, etc You have to be on your game all the time the thing that would worry me is if I stop having ideas Your only as good as your idea. This is all I do. I don't have a job I don't have any commitments.

I'm a good dad father But my family is really supported me when I have to go or do or think because when you're right Or you're just in your head a lot It's all I do and so I keep having ideas and I like having ideas I think ideas are one of the single best things about us humans and that the eyes will have facts and ways of it The way we do I don't know about it another 15 years I do get a little bit bored with certain kinds episodes. I'm constantly trying to change things up I do more series I'm trying to do more series There's a little bit more like writing a book doing series right now on the handles Messiah that piece of music that I happen to love What it sounded like to me is that it's the ideas that keep reigniting you yes You also have a taste for novelty everybody does right me in particular I'm not joking with that attitude you'd be very good offer Oh really offers were pretty terrible. We try best we get better But it's really hard, but then you hit that one shot And it buys you go to the night and you just think about how it smelled how it felt looking at the ball in the light And then you still were stuck in that day. I would argue that's kind of what life is though It's like oh, we all go through what's not what we'd want to do Yeah, but you go through it because you need to you're living your life support your family set up and you get with the highlight And you're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right before it all right Stephen this is my blast I hope you come back if you've never read economics you are a Filthy so go get it on the point of verse 3 November 11 to go before we're new jacket also One day a dormant show can still be a great show So something like we runs on TV obviously Yeah, but also pockets all you have to cycle through pretty fast We still have about seven or eight percent of people listen and ask you no No, it's a question as one.

It was new. Wow People are either like coming back. They discovered something. Yeah All right, wonderful.

We'll see you again. You're welcome. Stay tuned Hi, how are you? Good.

I have a list. Okay. What's your it? These are just a couple things that happen for marijuana.

I'm gonna take a trip. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay.

Okay. Um first of all We had so much fun. Good. We wrote a thousand miles in three days.

I got a blister My car won't go through I mean did you use the soap guys? It's not okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I used it last night We got it's pretty short trip, but we did get to two salad bars by Shoney's Shoney's I don't Shoney's happen on this trip. Okay. Well as we pulled over. We're just following the directions and um I see a goddamn show and I'm like I don't even think they were still around and I think they have salad bars God's a great restaurant.

They had full salad bar and a lunch bar. What's a little like hot big pan of hamburger patties and onions and broth That's delicious wait the patties were in a broth Yeah, this is like this big stainless steel bucket of hamburger patties and broth and onions Like hamburger fried steakers. I don't know what that one's but that's how the bar was great We really enjoyed that and then I just again We got up and exit on our way home. We were heading to Waffle House Oh, and I looked at my right and I was like Ruby Tuesday.

Oh, yeah, haven't been to Ruby Tuesday's in 40 years Okay, for some reason. No one doesn't get me as excited as show me's yeah, that's fair Okay, well I'm sure that we've made a lot more memories I chose Yeah, but I just was like when I went 40 years ago to 12 o'clock I know why Michigan I think they had a salad bar so I pulled into Ruby Tuesday's and I think they might have a salad bar because well Let's check turn up walk in gorgeous salad. Really? Yes.

Wow. I fucking love a salad bar. Okay now Did you did you deviate your salad from shownis to Ruby Tuesdays well there were some more options that Ruby Tuesday's the price points a little different Okay, so we did have my sunflower seeds. I love okay and more seeds and stuff for me at Ruby Tuesday's which was great Did you get this teeny tiny small pieces of ham no, but it's funny you'd say that the bucket of ham was the largest bucket on the salad Bar it was bigger than the lettuce balls right It was so much ham and Aaron loves his ham.

I love him on a salad I don't really mess with ham on the salad. He's teeny tiny pieces. It's so cute. Yeah Yeah, you would love it.

There's a bucket of ham. Keep a cheese. Yeah, she's just remind you it's mushrooms Okay, it's chopped egg if they had it right there. Please have okay.

What's a check mark? Okay garbanzo beans slash P's peas. Okay. Um seeds are you say cheddar cheese then blue cheese dressing and the Catalina and a little bit of honey mustard Mix all right.

Yeah, yeah, and then several trips. It's just so we just have such different tastes in salad bar I know I know that's great. We never be competing. Yeah, you got up there.

And there's like minimal blue cheese dressing left I mean you wouldn't care. No the only crossover we had is the cheddar cheese and What is caddling on in lettuce? Although I don't know this. I don't see it's you should start a salad bar.

You see they're good. I do But yeah, that's I think my salad is not good for a salad bar salad to me is not Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So that was that's just one up. We did it to salad bars and for days.

That's a great average Maybe we'll be back for my coffee table book that I'm still working on the great salad. I'm America. Yeah, yeah Yeah, you should take a search on okay. Oh, here's the show me something So then I go out with Aaron flew home and I was there for one more night So I picked Huey up in my Corvette.

I was like let's have a night on the town in the Corvette Okay, it was so fun. We went to break tops We have delicious meal and then on the way back We just were cruising all over Nashville and going through different neighborhoods and then we see this huge pals this house It was a palace. I was like what is that like 20 some thousand square feet. He's at least And he goes that's the yeah, that's the old show.

He's oh, like what that's the CEO show Also did he do a good job? He did But should the place be out of business and you want a palace and you're gonna see I doesn't that feel a little But it's not out of business. I guess you went to virtual. Yes I went to when I found one I was a picture of it every single person comes like oh my god There's still a show that's not yeah, the biggest thing That's it.

Can we look at how many show needs are left in the United States? That's a great search This guy still has his palace despite whatever I don't know if he doesn't does he gave up people a lot of food for a long time Clearly it was very profitable for some period because this house was outrageous Yeah, 58 of them across 15 states. Are there any here? Alabama Florida Georgia cookie Louisiana was a real quick Ohio pump that's not going to see Virginia in West Virginia so all the So how many do you look up with the maximum they had was that their peak on is this 44% of the total?

It can't be right there. I've shown you everywhere and this show He's just was like it was a diamond in the rough. It was it was exactly what you think We're both 15 we were the youngest by 30 years in 1988 or 1834 states there we go 1800 down to what you say 50 some Yeah, that's not 44. No So he must have built that palace in the 1800 locations.

Okay. Now second thing that happened was so the first two days we rode we wrote too much really When on the dragon style. This is a very famous road. There's like a couple of millions around 22 miles Maybe the curious road America he was that was beautiful so fun.

We got there next day kind of a tactical wonder I as a surprise an air night look up at the runny cider mills in the area There was granddaddy's apples So I said first stop. I was surprised went to the cider mill line was so long back to your vista store Yeah, it was like it was a good two hour wait. So I said two hours. Yeah, yeah, maybe I don't think so So I said let's just go get cider you could go get cider All the donuts was a lot.

Oh, so let's go grab some cider and let's go just say that people hope someone's had their feeling and buy the donuts off of them That was my approach and it works. We sat down next to this couple and I bought two don't what one don't it for $20 I'll give you $20 for one. Oh my god, and they were ethical so they give us two which was nice Wow, so first the sticker shock of $20 or two donuts right I get it. That's that's that's gluttonous No, I can shameful.

Yeah, unless you look at it this way Get this one 48 trip of the year two hours in that line. I said Aaron for anyone who makes more than $10 an hour What we did was cheaper? Yes, but like work is shitty especially if you're probably working on a place we're getting paid $11 an hour So to spend two of those hours at suck Towards one to two donuts if you're trading the two hours in line for two hours at work You probably be in line you rather do mine, but I still see on my mouth. That's like that's a good way to look at it I hope you know I put good hole well You're saying that the hours aren't comparable for me there there works It goes the other way I'd rather do the show for two hours and see on that line for two hours and the people about the donuts or so Because they were gonna throw those away and basically we're neutral they're gonna pay for their donuts We got donuts without spending the hours in line so everything felt really clean Okay, this is kind of I mean This is very reminiscent of the Taylor's of concert when I paid someone if I might Know a little different because I actually didn't add to the line in any way whatsoever Because people already gone online they bought their donuts and I didn't show up and say we buy a second thing Those like these are going in the trash so I didn't really impede anyone else's day and you found a workaround I did you want it with money with money so this is Taylor Swift sweat that part of this identical Yeah, I just didn't have to step in front.

I didn't want to give it to I see Yeah, I don't know how you talked to her if you didn't get in that But that's yeah, you did a great job. I've got these donuts. I really good Oh, so good so we leave there and I'll go looking last falls and so I put that in my nav on my phone And I have a handle bar and then we get and then I add that as a waste like as a stop-alone My route to go to old Edwards and which is much further away on town. So we get to the falls We take some pictures of everything's great go put my phone like resume I think well it like turned it off and now I have no cells service around the middle of the mountains So I just start continuing riding all this to say when I finally got cell service I think that blender added about two hours to our ride that day.

I was jelly that day. Oh, no We get all the way to this town. That's a side note. You can't eat we walk.

Oh, I don't have any money I want to complain about this No, there's a weird thing going on culture. We want to straight which is we went into many restaurants that were near MP and they told us that way It was an hour and I don't understand what this moment But it happens when we got the high-end we walk in this restaurant and I said hi to Mikey It's like 3.40 p.m. No, it's a 3.40 p.m. She goes it'll be an hour and I'm looking at the diner I just couldn't resist there were like three tables taken out of 25.

And I said it's gonna be an hour to sit the empty dining room Oh, there are 10 parties ahead of you and then I look around and we're the only people in I go where are you hiding? The parties In the Street and it's like you guys I don't want to work and I go that's cool. I get it. I don't want to work a lot I'll leave I don't want you to have to work if you don't work but don't lie and then lie again to back up the first lie Yeah, I was in like can you can we say the potentially Maybe they just have one server working and again, I think one server could handle the fourth table There's something there's this was pre-consistently out of the bad days enough.

Yeah, it's very weird I know it was I think what's going on is it's a really busy time of year in that part of the country a lot of people are going to Look at these turn. Yeah, you know they weren't turned at all so I think they're overwhelmed. Okay. I don't know I forget that I was playing is but time we got back to the hotel.

We had written so long and it was fucking cold my hands were known in the whole And so I woke up on the next morning and I'm like I got tell here and I don't want to ride it How did you feel identity wise? It's challenging. Yeah, it's challenging But I was like this is an opportunity for growth because then all it means like you're writing every day in writing hundreds of miles It takes us we can do but it was Sunday there was full on and I texted Aaron I said I hate to say this but I think I want to just lay around all day today He said I'm so glad you just send this text. I was like panic.

You're gonna want to write we need to break right So then I went on a phone to massage and I wanted us to have I just was like I didn't want to try to book two different appointments They felt like because I mean so busy. I just went to couples in such because that way. I know we can get a bunch of the same time Yeah, so I put a couple of some such for seven PM on Sunday night I was in the name of the place I said the name of the place because it was so great The name of the place in Asheville if you're there you must try it blazing Lotus healing house. Oh nice Okay, so I also wrote in the comments.

Hey, it's two it's two dudes So we don't need to be in a couples room if that's easier or harder whatever so we arrive at the thing and I say I don't know if you saw my Things, yeah, so we have two different rooms. Okay. Let's do that But we have a male in a female And I said I'll take the dude. I go fill up and he's incredible if you're gonna go get fill up He's insanely good.

I was one of the best of such as ever so lucky But while I'm laying there getting massage I was just thinking him ahead about people getting couple of sessions and I was thinking I can't imagine oh I know I'm not But but I'm on the far edge of this factor. I recognize it's not curious You don't think when there's a man when a man will go get a couple of sessions in the dudes laying there getting massage And then his wife's getting massage by a man. I don't think that man is ever getting jealous or worried That there's a man stroking his wife right next to him. I don't know.

I don't think so or they wouldn't do it Right, and so then I just started thinking about that. Oh, this is a very interesting thing that this happens Coles and sizes and a man's watching or his next to his wife getting rubbed by another man and then okay It's okay. Well, I don't think here. Hey most of us are just focused on the fact that they're getting well there Like I feel like there's like nothing that happened.

I'm right here. Truly. Oh, yes, yeah But it's raining so that's fine if a man rubs your wife and gives her lots of pleasure. Sure If it's her coworker, you're gonna have a lot of problems The activities objectively I know but the judgment is about thativity.

It's not what it means It's it's into a massage is not weirdly even though it's so pleasurable. It's not intimate Right, and if it crosses into it, it's actually very uncomfortable Yeah, that's beyond If it's a coworker, but let's say the coworker has not attracted your wife They're not gonna put themselves in the position to do that unless they are yeah, I'm trying I'm not gonna go to job making my point the activity is objectively the same. Yeah the rubbing muscles with lotion and so if you have a problem with one version again You've got to say oh, he's attracted to her where becomes a problem or they're not a professional or or or or or Yeah, just you recognize what I'm saying about the fragility of the mind that in this this scenario It's totally fine. I don't even think about it But if it's anyone but this person the activity itself is no judgment Yeah, because of the nuance of what it means There's no safety yet.

There's no professionalism There's no safety the person's not sitting even if it's not a couple of such even if it's just a woman goes against a massage from a man Yeah, there's been isn't there right they probably Oh, we have in our head where we go like it's totally fine if the stranger rubs my wife's naked body in this context Yeah, because there's there's boundaries around that context whereas if it's a coat That's a great. It's a great. It's like a term. Oh, it's crazy Yeah, that's like they're they're pushing a boundary Mmm-hmm the massage therapist at wrong gling lotus Yeah, close is you know like they could get sued like they're there's bound.

But the Sure, they could get sued, but you gotta go things equal so the coworkers not attracted your wife can't make people This is this is the nuance. This is exactly what I'm talking about the motion the physical motion is the same Yes, but what's behind is not the same exactly so let's go through it because you gotta be specific So what's the issue with the coworker and not the person at the massage intimacy? Emotional intimacy, but you're assuming that there's like Erica from our plot to give me a massage there would be nothing going on at all Like we would all agree well, I don't know the all agree I mean if all the sentence like Erica's gonna give that some massage. I think we'll be like why but that Right in this scenario you if it's a physical therapist or something friend if the physical therapist friend Yeah, that's different to me because that is like medical.

I know but it's funny because we like again It's a very arbitrary bracket reassignment because because the person is a professional which means what they went to massage school And have a very bad touching my naked partners fine because of xy and z They're trained well not because of train because they have stuff to lose their parameters They're there. They work for business or own business. I guess what I'm saying is if if you could establish the coworkers rubbing your wife Because he's horny for her. I got I get it.

You got a problem. You got a problem If the court is dispassionately doing the exact same thing with massage therapist. It's funny that that's a big difference It's just would never that's never happened that a coworker gives a non Nothing The coworker is getting his massage therapy license. That's a situation where I have to practice.

I think it's so many hours Yeah, that's different but this regular at office to coworkers now Stay tuned for our entire expert if you dare But again, I think what you believe you're objecting to is this coworker wants to rub my wife But I'm asking for the scenario to be the same as the masseuse The coworker doesn't want to rub your wife. Why is he because your wife asked him and they have a massage table at work I don't know why but I'm just saying it happened without those other stuff It's cool because I've got lots of people shoulders and stuff All right, well, I don't have somebody don't I think it's just really funny You have a dude rub your naked wife in one context and then and it's completely objectionable in another I think it's funny because it is I hear you're saying but the difference is boundaries and boundaries and boundaries and that is real Those are real. He doesn't think people then get specific about what that means What are the boundaries that are being crossed? Is it that no one can touch your wife?

No because in this scenario? They can is it they're attracted to my wife and want to rubber sexually. Yeah, that's a huge objection But just your friend could give you massage and none of those things will be on the table. Well, he's not yeah, yeah He has there's no but okay, so yes like he isn't attracted to me so that feels kind of fine It also still kind of doesn't like I think I would be like feel a little uncomfortable You want some anonymity when someone's yeah, it's nudity is best of the Is either for a partner for the most part of it's not like Into you know or for yeah like pleasure in an anonymous way Yeah, I just think I just think if you were the alien in the spaceship and you saw this man like watch this wife's getting Rubby's stranger next to him and he's completely at peace and he's gonna run through and then he walks in his house And then they were giving any ghost crazy and mercy guy I think you're the alien you might just be like oh, this is really funny I guess I mean this isn't anything because I had friends in town from Georgia Which was really really fun and one of the people yes one of the people Gina Gina is my hair play in massage as partner So we've been doing hair play in massage since we were 11 and if we're ever like together We make sure that happens.

Yeah, and it is like everyone always has this like your friends Yes, yeah, they like it, but they're like I think they think it's kinky Yeah, and it is always really funny because it is it is so not like it is so it is so benign It's nothing so I guess in some ways this is sort of what you're talking about But it's different when it's a man and a woman is their heterosexual Like me and Gina are heterosexual. So there is something about like it's fine Everyone's attracted to each other because they're opposite I mean You say that about every time attracted everyone it's nothing not a tiny I think most men who see a woman naked mostly good fuck are gonna be like Yeah, I don't think that's the case for women. I agree Yeah, I agree So that's not worried that my wife's attracted to them massage there. Yeah, and I don't think it reverse really where a woman a wife is all that worried about their husband going to a massage there This woman right which is ironic because that's who should be nervous Because you just said I will take a blow jump from a billy go A man should be that worried about his wife getting massage because in general the wife is just randomly attracted every guy Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm not this whole thing start with me being the man dealing with your wife's naked getting run by another man You don't care and you should probably not care too much period because I don't think most women are gonna get corned up over a random dude Yeah, exactly so it's a co-workers not a random dude and I think your wife's not attracted to 99% for co-workers.

Well if she's getting a massage from a co-workers She's not attracted to I said it can't be about attraction Because then you have a real problem your wife is engaging with someone she's attracted to in an intimate Yeah, yeah, but my scenario is she's not attracted to the co-worker. He just doesn't have this title So you make a big doctor. We're going Wow, um, I guess I was in it. Oh, they're playing massage work.

We didn't get to massage because it was too late I understand the hairplay, but what are the parameters of a massage you guys get very naked. No, not very naked normally is it full body? No, just back okay back massage full body changes it a little bit right Yeah, your friends working on your butt cheek working on your glue. She is a physical therapist.

So like I would maybe let her do that Guys been a minute since I think shirts are off, but you're laying down. So no, it's not yeah Oh, yeah You are in a massage Sit on the butt is there a lotion of all no to dry. Yeah, it's dry. I'm at this dry.

Oh Maybe a shirt on the side it might So hurt if I were her like if you like yeah, I'd be hurt. No, I think it starts off. Yeah, it's got a shirt. What's the point?

Yeah That work is a 10 minute chonger 15 I know you wouldn't like that, but it's sometimes I do stress out a little bit I don't reciprocate whams post due because I have not paying attention normally I go first you receive first Yeah, okay I don't know And so I am like I wonder how long it's gone. So I know what to do Yeah, but I Before it starts and we in brushes and like raid like you're crazy afterwards. It's like all super big Really? Twisting and calming it it feels so Even that's a distinction right like I think people would be jealous like it can feel so good and not be sexual Of course right, but I think people think anything feels good.

They're triggered. Yeah, I understand that that's true You think but again on the sogis like that a regular massage is not that a place. It feels so good There's zero. I mean again there's some exceptions, but zero sexual feelings are intimacy And we're chatting during hair plan wasages.

Okay, so we're catching flying Do you think you did the same amount you did you or a little else? Just think maybe I don't Yeah, this is your donuts Yeah, yeah, I just think our our Frame enough things is just so funny It is interesting that I mean it is a strange sim because I did have that thought the same thoughts Which is like it's so funny that they all think that they can't imagine a world in which our hair plan Misages isn't kinky like they can't imagine that yes, I think it's weird so yeah, and great so we bond on that I'm regularly just like I can't grasp The level of jealousy every else experiences. I just can't find purchase in it. Yeah, and then I'm always just looking at these like what I think are Mental hiccups or inconsistencies with whole things.

Yeah, you'd be totally fine with this. Yeah, it is context though Again, that's why I think I'm like you just need more information to know whether jealousy should happen or not It's two heterosexual females who've been doing this since they were 11. Yeah, I mean her husband Robby shout out right He doesn't care about not but he said in the corner of this plain bull pocket Would you like color or check your prostate? Well, you're my co-worker If you could accomplish what needed to be accomplished and I needed to know yeah, you would not I would I needed to know Okay, what do you mean?

When you let me and that's a better comp because because we're two heterosexual people. Yeah, yeah, I would have to I would have to run that by my Exactly, and she would say no. Well, no if I'm again This is not it is on her. No, what I'm saying is if I needed to find out of my prostate was big I because I next steps need to be taken and you for whatever reason you knew just as well as my doctor if it was in large And we were stuck somewhere and I called her and said I gotta find out if I got to go to the emergency room The only way is one I can't figure my but don't worry.

She knows what size I do know about her if I needed that to be done. She won't care who did it as long as the thing I needed to get done done I don't know about that and it's not anything to do it's nothing about her It's just she is okay for her to have boundaries. Okay. I'm actually not all that comfortable I prefer you go to the emergency Very specifically no, it's everything.

I'm calling her to say hey, I'm gonna put a finger my but for fun That's a call. No, I'm not saying yes to I know but now you made a scenario That's like not a real scenario There's no worries. I just let him put his finger up my butt right now because I had to yeah He's a doctor. Yes, I had to have that done.

Yeah Nobody was around to do the thing I had to have done. I know but that's my point is that scenario You're saying right now nobody's around yeah to have something done that you need to put a finger up your butt Yes, it's not real like no, it's not real. Yeah We never be in that situation. We can't get to a hospital and only a female co-workers My point is if something had to be done for my health that involved you or any female co-worker was the only person to you Of Christmas a yes as I would to you have to have something done.

I can get over My jealousy right for you to be healthy and safe sure. I mean massage is a little different I just had to have done but not because I wanted to right. Yeah, and I could do what I did last time this happened where I presented the facts and Everyone in the whole world listening including you was like these are really good Oh, really intricate you really you really did this time real deep dive. I don't got any of it was a deep dive and it turned out It was Sophia.

Yeah, yeah, so the is back on the facts today. Oh wow. So this for both of us will be eliminated Yes, and she's better than me at this so they're gonna be good Okay, what is Confederate money and how much was it worth answer slash correction Confederate money or Confederate States dollar was paper currency issued by the Confederacy Between 1861 and 1865 to fund this Civil War It was backed only by the future payment after Southern victory It started out roughly the same value as US dollar, but by 1863 it was worth six cents per US dollar and by 1865 It was worthless today given rarity it could be worth much more. Oh more than valueless That's like a little bar right.

Yeah, or less than six and seven right and it probably depends on where you are Where that would be more something or not. Yes. Who's that we have who's the guy we have on a collect the hair the presidential hair Cohen Jared Cohen Jared Cohen. Oh my god some Confederate money.

Yeah. He's a collector of history. It's um boy How do I say this? I do not want to offend the south, but it's a Jesus people who collect Nazi memorabilia It's haunting.

It's so powerful. My whole point is like if you want this on top of the ability to credit dollars You go like oh this is worth the day like I would be an anti-oppel You need to learn more you need to have more conversations with that person because yeah, they could be just a huge history buff Yeah, I could own some Nazi Plates and it would not make me in any way I know you were someone who thought anything that he learned about was about was so complicated Yes, because yes, you could definitely own that as like whoa, this is like a piece of world history how wild Yeah, and it's a piece of the most dramatic chapter in modern perfect Yeah, but here's where things get tricky is like if a Jewish friend comes over and you have he's like Not seetless way. Yeah, and you're like oh, this is just because I'm a history buff Right I also have Genkis cons belt over right and it probably would be like okay They were probably able to see that as as as truth But they are not gonna be able to look at that and not feel pain. Yeah, yeah, and same with Confederate dollars So you know because this goes back to the whole Confederate flag Yeah, it's like okay.

I understand that to you it doesn't mean that but to so many people and it did mean that I said both realities Yeah, and there's a third which is they're a lot of people that love the Confederate fight because they're displaying the racism Sure, but that's only happening. Yeah, when I grow more now through certain areas. Yeah, I know what they're saying There are some people like the hunting fishing south right itself. I really believe them.

I believe them too But that's exactly that's my point. I have one of my best friends I think struggled with this for a little bit. He's southern and he is he's like a hunter fissure Also like a professor of peace of peace. He's very introspective and smart.

Yeah, so I think he was struggling with this for a while He's like no represents this but he did come around like but no again He barely got their names of professor some people don't people don't do that And I wish they would I guess I wish they would but yeah, it's I know okay Did printing money in the US start during the Civil War first? Federal issue paper currency the greenbacks was introduced during the Civil War 1861 under the legal tender act paper money dated as far back as 1690 but not on the national scale so money was largely pointed or bank knows before 1861 the US dollar in coin form originated in 1792 but yes nation might be 100 to begin by the treasury during the Civil War Okay, who wrote the grant twain Adams Hamilton biographies and when were they written grant 2017 by Ron Chernoff We love a pile of twain Oh 2005 by Ron Powers. No, that's not what we are listening to the new one now. Yeah, which is run turn out Yeah, but this is an old one.

Okay, Adams 2001 by McCullough Hamilton 2004 by Ron Chernoff okay, so Hamilton's turn out in my call is Adams. Oh wow. This is an important one When did human stop eating poop? Hmm?

Okay answer can't find reliable data. Yeah, I was much hard to know really hard We need a cave painting of a mannee a pile of poop They're just falling out of another human and then the next painting where he's not doing that circle the line through it Don't do this Okay, you're at its poop 200 to be 100 times a day with average number of time and we'll poop today I mean I already did this on a previous actually turn that I am pretty good at this right now We're just now we're just now we're just gonna go through them again. Rabbit 200 to 300 moose 13 to 21 birds 12 to 40 Geez every 12 minutes grows. Okay.

It's up 140 times a day. I wonder if the geese in birds have to poop that much Evolutionarily to keep themselves alike as we know their bones are hollow so they can fly. Yeah, they can't carry around a pound of dawn That's true. Don don don't okay one fact blue whales supposedly excrete 200 liters of poop in one single bowel movement How much is that?

Yeah, 52.8. Oh my god. That's just no one is pollution is polluted when you were gone and we did a couple of arms here I know I have one guys with submarine work so mariner and yet they squirt their tanks out their waist tanks In the ocean. They have to they don't they don't come up for six months.

Oh right. Yeah, and he said there is a feeding frenzy outside But ew We whales let lose two Rose who coined the term illusion of fluency? We'll count on 2022 guest who who young on come on She was so playful and fun. We love her.

Yes cognitive psychologist professors. I called you at Yale She talks about a lore of fluency contract and thinking something simply because I felt easy which leaves the illusion of Yeah, she was cool. No, I listened to her. Yeah, she's right.

Yeah, that was a good episode And that's it for Sophia's facts on Stephen Dubner. Oh, right great great great great good job. So for you Good job reporting them on her. Thank you Rob.

Good job. Good job. All right. I love you