What If, the Len Bias story, hosted by Jordan Ritter Conn, is the Ringer's latest narrative podcast. You can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Len Bias, the 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft.
And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, this is What If, the Len Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter Conn.
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We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com, as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. Coming up, what's everyone so down about? Didn't everyone make it with a beautiful MP tonight? It's Stripes.
That's next. What kind of man wears stripes? Got something in a low-rise bikini? A real man who can fight his way out of anything.
Hang on! A leader of men, a follower of women. You can't go! A tough guy with a soft heart and an even softer head.
I just wish I hadn't drunk all that cough syrup. Bill Murray in Stripes, rated R. Starts Friday at a theater near you. All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here.
We only bring him out for the big guns. You're picky. I can't talk you into doing, like, irrelevant rewatchable movies. It has to be the icons.
And Stripes is a comedy icon for its 40th anniversary this month. I couldn't have said yes faster. This is, like, crucially important to me to do. Yeah, very few movies have influenced my inner psyche more than this movie and my whole friendship with my lifelong best friend is basically just patterned after the Zesky-Kringer friendship.
It just is. So, yeah, I'm so happy to be here with you. So I went to college in the late 80s. You went to college a little bit earlier than I did.
And this was during the era of, you had a few VHS tapes. Different people on the hall had this one, that one. Somebody had Rocky III. Somebody had Animal House.
There was like five comedies that were in the rotation that everybody watched. Some of them have not aged that well. Others have. But it was basically Animal House, Caddyshack, Stripes, Blues Brothers, Airplane was in there.
For some of us, Night Shift with Henry Winkler. I know it was for me, Michael King. May Win the Can. Yeah, May Win the Can.
Yeah. And I would say of all the ones that kind of everybody had, Stripes, cross the board, everyone liked. There were no Stripes dissenters. Everybody loved it.
It had different impacts for different people, especially in a college where when you meet somebody, like when we, the first week or so when I was in Wheeler 2 at Holy Cross, and we're all, we decide I'll give each other nicknames, like they did in Stripes. It was basically like we were just emulating the scene where they go around the room. And I just feel like this movie was so influential. I don't know if it is now, if you're under 35.
Like for your son, I don't know if Stripes is a good one, but for our generation, it's one of the icons. It's one of the ones, though, that still plays if you show it. So like, you know, Sammy's 25 and Anna's 21. So my kids, when I showed Sammy Stripes at 14, it still played where some of these movies don't play because of the friendship, because of the army, like the monolith of the army.
Because you know it never goes out of style, man. It's like the two rebellious characters against this, especially when you're in high school or middle school, against this monolithic enterprise that's gonna have rules and regulations that you have to follow. With Trading Places, were Trading Places and Princess Bride, Princess Bride and Trading Places were big in the rotation for our college thing. I was four years.
I graduated in 88, so I think I was like four years ahead of you or something like that, or five years. So similar enough. But Stripes, more than any other movie, it's possible that other than The Godfather movies, Stripes is the single movie I've seen them, and The Goodfellas. Those I've seen more, but other than The Godfather and Goodfellas, I think Stripes is like the next most watched of my whole life.
You have 48 Hours and Trading Places. There are two others you could have mentioned. There's probably, I don't know, there's eight to 12, but I just feel like if you were in college at any point in the 80s or early 90s, it was the same eight to 12. It was almost like an all-star team of comedies.
You know, it's funny. As great as Beverly Hills Cop is, and as much as I'm sure both of us could quote the whole movie by memory, Cop didn't really get rewatched as much, maybe because of the way the crime plot worked, or there were like dead moments in it. Like, we love the, that'd be a neat trick. It eventually got there.
Yeah. I think it was a little more modern. I think there was something about from that, Slapshot was another one. I should have mentioned Slapshot too.
From like 77 to 83, there's a specific field of those type of comedies, which leads me to stuff that I realized as I was working on the, you know, the document for this. There's this loser hero comedy era that unfolds. And I think it starts with The Jerk. The Jerk's the first one, Steve Martin, which was another one that was in this era.
Then you have Chevy Chase seems like old times. You have Airplane, where you have Ted Strikers, just this, you know, he's got a drinking problem. He's just throwing water in his face. He kind of rallies.
Arthur with Dudley Moore, Private Benjamin with Goldie Hawn, Stripes, Night Shift, Billy Blazowski, Mr. Mom, and then finally, I think Bachelor Party with Tom Hanks. It was the same kind of thing. It was this lovable loser.
The audience saw something in him, but nobody around him did. And we just like, he kind of knew his life maybe wasn't going anywhere or needed to change it, but he couldn't kind of figure out the way to do it. And we were always on his side from the first scene. And this is a specific era of movies that kind of goes away by 84.
It's so, well, when was Risky Business made? 83, that's another one. So Risky Business is right in there, I think. Joel is one of those guys too.
And you know, my personal flamingo kid, which is a Pantheon movie for me and you, but nobody knows it is like that too. But what's fascinating about, I agree with you, what's fascinating about this movie to me, especially watching it again, fresh, is because Bill Murray is such an incredibly special piece of casting. And because Ramis, you know, you rarely get a guy acting in a movie who's as smart in real life as Harold Ramis, or as funny in real life. And so you get these two guys and they just, this absurd concept, and you can feel the way it's sort of slapdash put together in some ways and improvised, but the two of them have so much depth to them.
That's the thing about Bill Murray that's so special, is like that scene, and I agree with you, right? It's this, the loser thing. But I was 14, Bill, when I first saw this movie. I remember where I was.
So just at the point where, you know, all you think about are girls and sports, right? 14, if you're, as I was then, if you are someone who at 14 liked girls and basically all you think about is sports and girls and then like, yeah, movies and music or whatever. Basically, it's girls and sports, right? And that first sequence after he gets out of the cab and he's home with the girlfriend, it like sank so deep into my psyche, like, because it was impossible to everything you thought, wait a second, like, there's such a thing as this woman who's a sexual dynamo.
And like, I remember hearing I have to read books on the outside just to keep up. And his whole, you know, it's a little cute. I don't know, John. It's just not that cute anymore.
It's a little cute. Come on. I'm part of the lost and restless generation. What do you want me to do?
Run for the Senate? I don't know what I want. I just know that I don't want you. And then the girlfriend saying like you, I need somebody.
I remember my mind being blown by, I need someone who's going to develop with me and grow with me. I mean, Jesus Christ, like as a teen, I was haunted by that because I was like, I'm never going to grow. I'm never going to, I'll never give you a grown. Teachers, like, were you able to fuck around with your friends without getting caught all the time?
Or did people know you were a big wiseass in class and sometimes your parents got called? I know your dad was in the school. Like, I know that there were reasons you probably had to behave yourself because of who your father was. But how did that play out for you?
Did not... was not as much of the wiseass later. I was the wiseass fourth, fifth grade, not as much later. Right.
So, but I... so for me, I was in trouble. I was getting into... I was in trouble all the fucking time.
Yeah. And so in this... in this movie, when you're asking about Bill Murray owned me, I mean, it was literally when he was like, it's a little cute. In that moment with that girl, you know, his girlfriend screaming at him and going, it's not funny anymore, John.
It's not cute. And he goes, it's a little cute. And that was all you were trying to say to your teachers or your parents or anyone else was, come on, I'm doing my best. Like, this is really hard to be like a human in a body and a person.
And so I was always in trouble. And I viewed myself after that as him. And I remember I would act in the plays in school. I remember going to like the eighth grade drama guy who was a great guy.
And I was like, please go see this movie. Please go see this movie. And he came back and he was like, no, that's not... that's not real acting.
Those guys are ironic. They're aware that they're being whatever. And he said it. And he put words to the thing.
And I was like, right. That's because you're just... but for me, for my generation, that's all I want to fucking... Like, those are who I am.
Like, they started that whole ironic detached awareness of the absurdity of your situation. And I think that's what's different about this and a lot of those other movies you talked about. Like, the jerk Steve Martin sensibility is absurdist with a capital A. But this is like, they're playing it real and they're kind of playing it the way you and your buddies hope you'd be, which is the wise off to the fucking teachers.
Because that's what Sergeant Hulk is and that's what the captain is, too, Stillman. They're the principal and the teacher who are barking orders at you and you just don't want to fucking hear it. So you're getting detention. And this movie is all about that.
That's why the movie works so well. It is that. It's everybody's life when they're 15 or 16. Again, you would have had a harder time being a wiseass because of your situation.
But I just did it. And so this really meant a lot to me. I felt understood by the movie. And then you have...
you have Letterman comes in 82. Yes. I think Murray was the first guest. Yeah.
Which... which I don't think it was an accident, but that's when the whole ironic era really kicks in. I felt for Murray... I started watching SNL, too, when I was 10, but it was later.
And they were doing those half-hour Greatest Hits. So I started watching those. I felt Belushi was my guy. But then Murray on the nerd sketch, that was what got me.
And him giving the noogies. And that was where I was like, this is my guy. And I love Meatballs. Meatballs was more for me because I was younger.
Yes. Caddyshack and then Stripes. And it was like, this is my guy. I fucking love Bill Murray.
Then he would come back. He would host SNL. He would go on Letterman. He was like, you know, really the most important guest Letterman would have for the first couple of years.
He was taping into that Seinfeld, Michael Keaton, early Tom Hanks, all those guys. But Murray was like the royalty. And Murray was still a pretty young guy. But he had pretty much become the off-camera Bill Murray legend, I think, even before Ghostbusters.
Where it was just like, it was clear that he was just more likable than Chevy Chase. Chevy Chase in movies was likable, but just seemed like a dick. And you couldn't... when you'd see him on talk shows and stuff, you're like, oh, that guy's a dick.
Bill Murray always kind of won you over as he was being a dick, which I think was the difference. Bill Murray, you could... you sensed that there was like this light inside of him. Not just of his light.
There was this light inside of him, yes. And that it wasn't coming from a place of thinking he was better than you. It's just that you and him were better than all these idiots. He had a way to enlist you, bring you onto his side.
I agree with you. Chevy... Fletch is fucking hilarious, but I never once wanted to spend a moment with Chevy Chase in my life. Whereas to this day, the idea of getting to spend time with Bill Murray is pretty amazing.
You know what I mean? Like... Yeah, there's been multiple magazine features about it, about writers just getting to hang out with them for two days, three days with him. Give Ramis, who co-wrote Animal House, Meatballs, and Caddyshack, directed Caddyshack.
And at that point, it just seemed like he was going to be a behind-the-scenes guy. But Murray really pushed for him to be in this movie and becomes a sidekick. And then eventually goes behind the scenes and has a really great career, much like Ivan Reitman, who at this point is at the peak of his powers. And the Reitman-Ramis relationship was important because I think it became the successor, basically.
Ramis can't be... Ramis' role can't be overstated, like what he did to American comedy. Comedy movies. You got to give him an enormous amount of credit for all this stuff.
As you said, writing those movies, directing Caddyshack. And, you know, when you think about the fact that he made Groundhog Day, a movie that people will be watching in 50 years from now, and that those two guys got to, you know, do that together before Sat... Like, I want someone to write a book. I need someone to write the book.
I still don't understand. I don't have my arms around what happened between them at all. But... It seemed like it was too much professional...
We did a Groundhog Day pod a while ago, so I did some deep dive on research on that. And it seemed like there was some professional competition stuff and just a long history. Yeah. You know, where you've just known somebody before you were both famous, as you're becoming famous, after you became super famous, and there was just a lot of baggage with both guys.
That's my takeaway. But I think Ramis was really hurt by it. And I think Murray eventually kind of realized he was in the wrong. Because I think he was impossible on the Groundhog Day set.
I'm sure all the research said, like, Murray was a nightmare on the set. Yeah, I'm sure Ramis was trying to direct him and Murray didn't want to be directed by, at that point, by him, or for whatever reason. But those two guys together in this movie are one of the... I would say they're one of the greatest buddy teams of all time.
And they should have made... Like what you were saying, you wanted more of them. I mean, they should have made, like, the Bob Hope and... They should have made a million of those movies together, right?
They just should have made a million of them together. And it's sad that they only made a few. It's great they made these blockbusters, but it would have been great if they made 10 fast movies together. Well, the legacy of the loser hero comedy era that made a lot of money and was pretty much defined a seven-year period, a decade or so passes, and then all the sons of that generation who watched it growing up, now all of a sudden, this is Sandler's career.
Sandler makes a billion dollars from this exact recipe. Tommy Boy, same thing. Dirty Work with Norm MacDonald. Like, all those movies from '94 to '98.
And then Apatow, who's, like, kind of the grandson of the era, or maybe, like, the younger, younger brother of the era. Then in the 2000s, he does his twist on it with all his movies that he makes from '04 to basically. And this just becomes a thing. I don't know what the era is now for it.
Nobody's really brought this back. Now, it's almost like we're doing it with little kids. Like, Good Boys, movies like that. It would just feel so derivative.
I guess the Hangover movies, to some extent. And I guess one of the writers of this, one of the writers of Stripes produced all three Hangover movies. And I said that connection was really fascinating to me because I think that there is a little bit of that in there. So you have the supporting cast, John Candy, Judge Reinhold, John DeWairnots, B.J.
Soul, Sean Young, John Larroquette. There's some also some cameos from people like Timothy Busfield, super young ogre from Revenge of the Nerds. Just a lot of people in this. Renton thought the idea...
He was on his way to the premiere of Meatballs, which he directed, and he had an idea for a movie called Chi-Chi Chong Join the Army. And we'll get When you stole that cow and your friend tried to make it with the cow, I want to party with you, cowboy. So, you know, I made a promise to myself when I was very young, because like I said, I was obsessed with this movie for 14. And I promised myself that if I ever saw Bill Murray in the world, I would go up to him and I would do the whole, I would do the whole speech.
Oh, no. Chicks dig me because I rarely run when I do with you. It's like pretty unusual. Now I know why I lose chicks to guys like you and such stories.
You know all that stuff. So it's not just uniforms, stories you tell. I know it by heart, Bill. And I always promised myself that I would do it.
Years go by, but I do occasionally when the movie's on, reaffirm it. And I once read an interview with him where he said he met a guy on the street who came up to him and started quoting lines. And then he's like, I really liked that guy because, hey, if you found my stuff funny, I'd probably like him. I'd find him funny.
So that was always in the back of my mind. But unfortunately, though, you got to flash all the way forward to like me as a grown man in my early 30s in the same business as him. Like just maybe we made one movie. So I'm like 31 years old.
I'm at a Knicks game and I'm in great seats. Like the sixth row. And I see in the front row, there's Bill Murray and he's near somebody I know. And I got checked it.
And I I'm like, am I who I am? Who I always promised myself I'd be if I don't do this. But on the other hand, if I do it, I'll be so embarrassed. And if he knows that I'm in the business, I mean, it's a career killer and you just look like such an asshole.
And they're like so many people around who know me because the Knicks game, you know, I just know all these people in the section behind me and in front of where I am. But I decide I got to do it. And I, oh no, you did it. I go and I go.
I knew one of the security guards because it was like close enough. This guy Carmine. I was like, Carmine, you got to get me to the floor. And Carmine takes me around to the floor and I walk past like a guy that I know.
And then there I am face to face with Bill Murray and he looks at me and I look at him and I just say, chicks dig me because I rarely run and I do the whole fucking speech to him right there on the floor of Madison Square Garden. And he just looks at me as though I'm the craziest fucking person in the entire building. Like he cannot, because I'm like, I'm wearing like a sport coat. I'm gonna go out on a date.
I'm wearing a sport coat or whatever. My wife's with me. We were going out afterwards. And I fucking did it, man.
I went up to, but I didn't, I didn't identify that I was, I didn't tell him my name, nothing, but I fucking read. So yeah, that scene is the most, I mean, I literally memorized it, carried it around with me for 16 years or whatever to fucking tell it to Bill Murray. And he did look at me and I said, I go, I had to do it. I promised myself when I was 14 and he was like, then I hope you're proud of yourself.
And I was like, yeah, man, I'm kind of proud of myself. And then I just walked away, just turned around and walked away. But I did it. Unbelievable.
But now you got to come full circle. He's got to be like season seven of Billions when him and Axe buy like the bears. Yeah, well, I didn't have the guts to do part two because I did get to, I did get to have dinner with him once and I did, I, you know, years later, I got to have dinner with him and there were four of us at dinner. Yeah, four of us at dinner.
Five, me plus four people at dinner. And I told myself on the way, I was like, oh, I'm totally going to tell him that I did that at the Knicks game. And then instead I was like, so nice to meet you, sir. You know what I mean?
I didn't do it at all. Oh, you did the double. So nice to meet you. I totally didn't have the balls to be like, I'm the lunatic who came up to you and I just did.
But I felt I at least did the one, the one piece of it. So I agree. That scene is the most rewatchable. I mean, because also you could equally have done that if Candy was still alive.
Candy's speech is unbelievable. How about Francis? Unbelievable. Every college dorm had Francis.
We had a guy who we used to jokingly call Francis. Call him psycho. Don't call me Francis. Touch my stuff.
I'll kill you. Touch my stuff. I'll kill you. Just after he said, lighten up Francis.
It's so good. That whole scene is so great. I have for rewatchable when they go to General Barnicky's house. Unbelievable.
Bill Murray and PJ souls. The spatula. The spatula. The spatula is amazing.
Apparently all filmed at three in the morning. And Murray was improvising the whole thing and just really clicked with souls and just trying different things. All of that's really good. I actually like hanging out with the four of them.
And I think it could have used like two more double date somethings with them where they're just, I just like the interactions with them. The ceremony when they show up late and they do the whole thing was, as a kid was my favorite part of the movie. Yes. Do you not have on the list, um, the, the, the, the training, the first training sequence for me, the first training sequence.
I bet it would take the best. Okay, fine. Yeah, but I, to me, it's a rewatchable sequence because. The guy falls on the log.
Yeah, all that stuff. Um, and then I, I try to keep it tight. I really like when they land back in America and they do the newspaper headlines for what's what happened to everybody. Oh, that's hilarious.
It's just late seventies, early eighties gimmick that has just kind of gone away. I think Animal House like basically started it, but we have Hulk, we have the Hulkerberger franchise. Unbelievable. We have PJ Souls at Penthouse.
We have Sisky rates the Russians. They're pussies. Dream date with Ox. News world.
The new army could America survive. And then Larracap in the uh Arquette command. Oh, that's the best. No, that's the most satisfying for sure.
But, but don't you also think the first time you meet for me, the first time you meet Stillman and he says, I wish you were a loofah. It's pretty hard to beat too. Pretty unbelievable. What age the best.
Well, no, you hit, I mean, you hit, obviously these are the things, but the training sequence and mud wrestling. Tell me you didn't, I mean, again, for the teenage fantasy thing, right? Tell me that that mud wrestling thing didn't seem to you like one of the most amazing things you'd ever seen in your life. So I had that in there, but I have some, I have some questions about that scene because they're, well, I'll just say it now.
It's a nitpick for me. Why was the police raiding pom-poms? I didn't understand it. It's just a, it's a strip joint with mud wrestling.
Why was it getting raided? Was it the, it was the MPs? Was it the MPs raiding it? Because it's the MPs who come in and take them away, right?
I think that they were acting in a manner unbecoming. Well, that, that scene, I mean, that's the famous John Candy scene. He holds up the bikinis, all that stuff. But, um, that scene is, it's hard to understand what happened.
Why the two of them get to go away and not be with the rest of the troop. It definitely is a monkey wrench, but it's really funny. Yes. What's age the best.
So I don't know if this was the first time we had this in a movie, but the you're going nowhere, John speech for the wet blanket girlfriend. I feel like has been ripped off for 40 years. But did somebody do it before this movie? The you're going nowhere speech to the guy we like.
We're like, no, no, he's going to show you wrong. He's going to go somewhere. Oh yeah. I mean, certainly I think we certainly got that in Raging Bull.
Oh, that's fair. But in the comedy, you were saying like in a, in a, in a comedy, this has been, this particular girlfriend has been in five Adam Sandler movies. Like it, it became, you always know it's going to happen. Jack Black.
What's that movie? Um, School of Rock. Oh, no, you're right. It's coming.
It's been a million of them before. You bring them in. All right. So that has an age best.
Candy's first appearance when he's got the long, Oh my God. Hair, the cigarette. How are you doing? How are you doing Eisenhower?
It's the fucking greatest. I'm captain Stillman. The new company commander. Police report, sir.
Fine looking group of men. Germany? Like, where do you... What is this?
Where do we put it? And they just decided this is even too weird for the cocaine 80s. Maybe only in the sequel you could have done it. Yeah, I agree.
Good that they cut that. I would say, I think just like the whole idea of Harold Ramis and Bill Murray together aged the best. Like, this friendship, right, is an aged the best thing. Warren Oates, Tony Fan, and also Sergeant Hulka.
Hulka burgers. What aged the worst? There's that comedy era, Porky's, this movie, other stuff, where they're just working in boobs for like four years in comedies, where there was a lot of like peeping on women through binoculars and shower holes that now I think would be treated differently. Just pointing it out.
The final third of the movie. Ramis is... Reitman, one of them, is basically on the record, Reitman, as like, I never really landed the plane in the final act, but it's fine. People love this movie.
It was super successful. But it's like, we go from... I had this in probably the next couple of questions, but all of a sudden we're in Czechoslovakia. Stillman leads the platoon over the border.
Hulka realizes that they're in a bad spot. Jumps out, leaves the troops to be handled by the Soviet army. Makes a mayday call to Bill Murray and Harold Ramis, who are tooling around in the EM50 for no reason at all. They realize they have to go save everybody.
And the four of them go back and they basically infiltrate a Soviet base, rescue everybody, and nobody is murdered. It only took like 20 minutes. It gives us a line that I have said so many times in my life, which is, it's like Wisconsin, I once got my ass kicked in Wisconsin. Which is, for me, I can't tell you how many times I've turned to Levine when we are making a bad decision about doing something our whole lives and just been like, what's like Wisconsin?
And then the other guy says, I once got my ass kicked in Wisconsin. And so the whole, basically, last third of the movie is just to give you that line and one or two other moments. And you get the, you know, where the fuck is my truck? I mean, Stillman showing off for one of those girls, wanting to show the armored vehicle off and then finds out that the guys are joyriding with their women.
Yeah, the last third of the movie is a disaster as a screenwriting exercise. But the first two thirds are so good that it just completely doesn't matter. I agree. I had the sort of portrait.
You know, before I watched it again, I wrote down Portrait of Women as one of the worst, age the worst. But the truth is, the two M.P. women are great. They're smart.
They have a ton of agency for themselves. But, yes, Larroquette's character, Stillman, like, Looking at the, you know, the showering woman through the binoculars, not something that's in any way. It just wouldn't happen now. But, you know, it was the early 80s.
I think in general, during this 77 to 84 of the cocaine era, basically for Hollywood and comedy, things could be incoherent and it was okay. You could just kind of have a movie completely go off the rails. And there were so many bizarre things happening in movies and even TV at the time that it was like, all right, they didn't land the plane, but it's fine. Caddyshack, the whole golf course blows up.
Blues Brothers, they blow up the entire city of Chicago as they deliver this check. I mean, it's just kind of what the era was like. But it also goes to how funny the movie is that we don't care. Like, you care, but there's still hilarious shit going on the whole time that all of that awfulness is happening.
We'll take one more break and then we're going to do the rest of the categories. All right, Casting What Ifs. So Reitman had the idea of Cheech and Chong go to the army. Cheech and Chong's manager thought the script was very funny.
They pitched it to him. The comedy duo wanted complete creative control. That falls through. Reitman and his writers changed the characters to suit them for Bill Murray and Harold Ramis.
And they figured they'd get Ramis interested. They get Murray there, right? Columbia Pictures did not like Ramis's addition. They pushed for Dennis Quaid, who was married to P.J.
Soles at the time. Who knew? Ramis decided he wasn't sure he wanted to be in the film. Murray said, I'm not going to be in the film if you're not.
Ramis ends up going in. The rest is history. One more casting what if. Kim Basinger was offered the P.J.
Soles part, but her agent wanted a crazy amount of money. So they grabbed P.J. Soles, even though she had just been in Private Benjamin. That could have been Kim Basinger and Sean Young as the two M.P.s.
Young Kim Basinger, too. If it's Basinger, it actually, she was such a star and anything she did at that era, the camera. She's too pretty. The camera, it doesn't work.
She would draw the whole movie to her because of how much charisma and how much star power she had then. So it was a lucky break not to get her in it. You're not buying that she's an M.P. You're not buying that she's falling for John Larroquette.
If you are, you're just the camera is just only filming Kim Basinger. She was, at that moment, you know, arguably the most beautiful woman in the world and also a good actor. So she had that double whammy of there was no way she wasn't just going to take over the movie if she were in it. And that would have just been strange for what this movie is.
Next category, best that guy, Joey Pants Award. So you have John Deal, who ended up in My New Device. You had a cameo from Oger, who ends up in Revenge of the Nerds and Bloodsport, and first and 10. Donald Gibb is his name.
I think the best that guy is Francis, who was played by Conrad Dunn. I never knew what his name was. It's just like if you saw him in anything after this, it's like, yeah, it's Francis. You're Francis from that point on.
So you're not going Warren Oates or Larroquette? Because Larroquette was not famous. Neither was Warren Oates. Yeah, but they became famous.
They became famous, though. But Larroquette was not famous then, really. But now when you watch it, he's Larroquette. I guess you could say, in the moment, he was like, oh, that guy, though.
I think so. And also, John Candy's. Though we could give John Candy the heat check, I think, probably. John Candy's coming.
The Vincent Hannah Give Me All You Got award for overacting. What do you got? Oh, that's fascinating. Who do you have for that one?
I had Francis, even though I like the performance. Because Francis is just, he's just going for it. And I think you could make the case for him. You know, it's not a big, I'll tell you, even though he's the best thing in the movie, the truth is Harold Ramis does a lot of overacting in that movie.
Like, if you think about the faces he's making behind Bill Murray all the time. Next to Candy. And that's just next to Candy, yeah. Next to Candy.
But also, when Bill Murray apologizes, if you watch when John Ringer apologizes to Hulka after the first time he's, you know, I got a hell of a sense of humor, ain't I, Corporal? And then they go and pick their underwear out and stuff. And he's apologizing to Hulka. And right behind him, Ramis is just sort of like making faces and doing all this stuff.
And I think you could make the argument, even though Ramis is a genius in it, that maybe he's doing a little bit, he's pushing a little bit hard to make sure that, you know, because he was the least experienced in front of the camera in a way. The Jed Nelson award for the people who seem like they were in a different movie. This obviously has to go to the two Czechoslovakian armor, arm guards who are just running there. I don't know what movie they're in, but it's a different movie.
The Deion Waiters award for best heat check. So runners up, Dave Thomas. Oh, yeah. Who does the mud wrestling.
Amazing. He's great in it. Judge Reinhold, very high batting average for very few lines. The guy who played Francis.
But it has to be John Candy. Candy was the best. Ochs. All-timer.
We had one of our friends freshman year, we called Ochs, basically because he just was a little bit heavy set, but had the same kind of candy haircut. We called him Oxy. He hated it. But Ochs was, you know.
Candy. Do you feel like Candies movie career, if we played it out 20 times, that we got the best version of it? Because I feel like we didn't. Well, he just died so young, man.
But he died in the 90s. We had all 80s with him then. It felt like more could have happened. Well, like, I do think he's incredible in certain things like JFK, which someday we're Sean Young, no.
Blade Runner, probably. That moment in her career, Blade Runner, then Wall Street, Wall Street turned bad. No way out, but she's amazing in No Way Out. She's incredible in that movie.
I agree with you. I want to do that No Way Out as a rewatchable just to give her the the Dan Waiters award. Larquette, no. He became a massive TV star.
Goofy closing credits that are actually really funny. I still feel like Animal House did the best when when it turns out Lutharsy was a senator. That's the biggest laugh you're going to get from those gimmick in the future credit things, right? It's Warren Oates, right?
Warren Oates has to be the apex mount. He's an apex mount, no question. Rightman, no. Mud wrestling in a movie?
Was this the was this the greatest mud wrestling moment in the history of a movie? I feel like the answer has to be yes, right? Pom-Poms. It's like the it's like MSG with the Sheik versus Sergeant Slaughter.
I mean, getting, I mean, when Candy comes up when when Ox comes up with the uh the bomb. All the bikinis, yeah. When she comes up and when he comes up with the bombs, it's a pretty winning moment. And they're beating the shit out of him.
Yeah, they really go at him. They go at him hard. It's like a five on one. Pickiness.
We talked about why didn't those guys get their head shaved. Don't understand it. Why there is a raid on pom-poms. You try to explain it.
Why these jackoffs got promoted to the EM-50 project in Italy based on showing up late for their ceremony. That's the fact check. They were self-starters. And the old crusty sergeant's like, let's get these guys for the EM-50 project.
That's tough. This is my biggest nitpick. Why was the EM-50 so unimpressive? Couldn't they have spent like a hundred grand on it?
It just looked like a fucking minivan. But I think they sold themselves on the idea that that will be funny. I think when they didn't have the budget, they sold themselves on the idea that everyone freaking out about this, this thing that just looks like a Winnebago will be funny. But I can't believe that this one nitpick slid past you and it's going to bother you now forever.
I wasn't done, but go give it, give it to me. Can I give you one? Is it all right? You might've had it.
I mean, you might've had this, but as a guy who's played more room basketball than almost anyone, you know, I don't know what shot he was attempting when he threw the ball through the window. I don't, I don't know. It's not a shot. He just threw it off.
It goes up as though it's a hook shot. And then instead he just throws it through that. That's not a hook shot though, because at the hoops over there, it's the parabola is all wrong. It really bothered that moment.
What's he doing? What shot is he, what shot is he shooting? It would be like if Kareem did a skyhook in the finals and just threw it into the seventh row. Or if he just threw it into Pat, Pat, Pat, Brian's face at a thing.
Yeah. I mean, I don't understand it. It's a great one. Great point.
I just had a picking nits just in general. I would have done at least one more double date scene with the four of them. Love it. Just go to a diner and have just tell Bill Murray, like, Hey, we just added this.
The four of you are gonna go to a diner, just sit in these booths and do Bill Murray stuff for like two and a half minutes. Talking about like how you end up in the army. Just give them your backstory in some way. And I, because I don't mind, like, obviously everyone points out the thing about the bag underneath his head after they, you know, when they get caught and he's banging his head against the thing, how the bag is there and then it's not there.
But I don't care about any of that. This movie, that's just fine. It's perfect for it. The basketball, the basketball through the window really, really bugs me.
That's the biggest one. Could this be remade as a 10 episode Netflix show? No. Probably answerable questions.
We already covered the last 20 minutes of the movie. Wait, this could be made as a, oh, I think it can be definitely made as a Netflix show. I think it's sacrilege. I don't want someone to mess with stripes, but I think you could do it.
I'm just saying I would not do it. One could make an entertaining show out of if you found the right two people. I don't know who I watched it with. Here's what should be the Netflix show was Officer and a Gentleman.
That one could be a Netflix show. You could easily do that. I still haven't recovered. I still have not recovered from David Keith's demise.
Oh, hanging. How about naked Logia? I see a lot of scarring at the beginning. There's a lot of scarring.
If you haven't seen Officer and a Gentleman, just know going in, it's not like stripes. If you're gonna go watch that movie, it's not like stripes. Officer and a Gentleman, I think is like a great movie. I would give it a great.
I would give it the great movie. Richard Gere is great in that movie. By the way, APEX, Debra Winger, incredible. That run she had.
Debra Winger, incredible. Yeah, Debra Winger was at a, she was ripping them off. So great. Like five, six years.
That movie and Urban Cowboy back to back. I mean, forget about it. She was incredible. David, obviously the finest performance of David Keith's life.
Not to be confused with Keith David people. And then the girlfriend, the who pretended she was pregnant. Oh my God. And then all of a sudden tough, tough one.
All right. So here's my big unanswerable question for you. Is this movie better if it just ends with the ceremony and we never have the EM-50 part of it. And we just add stuff so that it ends.
The ceremony is how the movie actually ends. We add more stuff in the middle. We have more backstory with Bill Murray and Ramis and the two MPs and a little more time with Candy. We have one more pom-poms excursion type thing.
And then it just ends with basically they have to graduate and Murray figures it out and we have the ceremony and the movie's over. Maybe. Maybe. I think though, if we think about it, Welcome to Italy, gentlemen is such a great moment.
Right. The moment that Holka walks in and says, welcome to Italy. So that you like the validation. I like the moment they go there and he's like, welcome to Italy.
But then, and then I, because I love a bunch of the stuff right then. Just then in Italy. But, but from there on, it's a disaster. And, and I think, yeah, I agree.
They just should have rewritten someone just should have suggested after the table read, like they all sat around and someone should have been like, man, this, what do we know 30 minutes sucks. Like what else can we do? And then they could have gotten in around a table because I read that even that scene is our favorite of them introducing themselves. The original version of that didn't work so well.
And Bill Murray took everyone back to his trailer and they all sat around and he implies in an interview I saw that they all got fucked up. And then they rewrote that sequence and I wish they would have just done that with the end. But I love your question. I guess then you would have to have a visit from like their parents or something or like that woman would have had to found out that now he's like looking good and, and, and tried to get him back or something.
You know what I mean? It would have had to have been a totally different movie. I wouldn't mind seeing her again as like a, she's kind of got the hots for him again, but he's already down the road with PJ souls. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it could work. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I gotta be honest.
I know I made fun of the EM-50 before, but I think it'd be a cool thing to have in the driveway. Like, what is that? It's the EM-50 from stripes. You could make that 40 year old minivan.
Do you ever see stripes? Well, you could make it, you could make it your gaming room. Like you could set up a gaming chair in there and that could be where you play video games. Or yeah, for you, it'd be great too.
Cause you could actually set up screens and you could go there to watch sports. So it could be like my son's hangout. Yeah. Great.
I'm gonna go hang out at the EM-50. I just think I want the spatula framed. Spatula. Great one.
Just framed or the apartment. The apartment would be great. Like the set that was the apartment. Oh yeah.
What was that? Like a two room studio? That was, that was a, that was a basketball hoop would be even better. I'd rather the basketball hoop now that I'm thinking about it.
I'd rather the basketball hoop than the EM-50. Incredible. The hoop. But if you could have just that whole setup.
Cause they also somehow be so poor, but they've got the putting, you know, of the automatic putting machine. They