Stuart Kauffman - Why Open-Ended Evolution Has Never Happened in a Machine (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 5)

Stuart Kauffman has spent over 50 years asking a deceptively simple question: what actually makes something alive? His answer is that greater computational sophistication alone does not make AI alive.In this installment of the Stewarding the Flame series, the pioneering complexity theorist argues that life is fundamentally a matter of physical construction, not computation - living things build themselves out of real matter, while computers only move symbols around. We explore his concept of "catalytic and constraint closure" as a candidate definition of life, why he believes evolution produces genuinely new possibilities that cannot be fully listed or deduced in advance, and why he thinks physically embodied, self-building robotic systems - not today's AI - may be where real caution is warranted.The conversation also explores Stuart’s call for caution, humility, and participation with the rest of life as we create an “unprestatable becoming” faster and faster.The interview is the sixth installment of The Trajectory's newest series, Stewarding the Flame, where we explore what intelligence is and ask what "flame" life possesses that non-life does not.This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:-- Stewarding the Flame - How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding-- Stuart Kauffman & Andrea Roli - "A third transition in science?", Interface Focus, 2023: https://doi.org/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063-- Marina Cortês, Stuart Kauffman, Andrew Liddle & Lee Smolin - "Biocosmology": https://www.biocosmology.earth/-- Blaise Agüera y Arcas – AGI Symbiosis and the Arrow of Intelligence (Worthy Successor, Episode 14): https://danfaggella.com/arcas1/-- Denis Noble – Life is “Fluid” in Ways Machines Still Aren’t (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 4): https://danfaggella.com/noble1/-- Martin Rees – If They’re Conscious, We Should Step Aside (Worthy Successor, Episode 12): https://danfaggella.com/rees1/-- Investigations, by Stuart Kauffman: https://books.google.co.za/books/about/Investigations.html?id=HLkX-6m4W8kC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y-- Novacene, The Coming Age of Hyperintelligence, By James Lovelock: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262539517/novacene/Listen to this episode on The Trajectory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trajectory/id1739255954Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/PQWcIHd2MzMSee the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/kauffman1...About The Trajectory:AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls: https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircleStay in touch: -- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw -- X: x.com/danfaggella -- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory -- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai