Symbols

In the dead of night, as people sleep, that is when the spirits creep. As the bell tolls three dark things take power, we like to call it the supernatural hour. And now... Welcome to the Supernatural Hour Podcast.

I'm your host Raven. I'm Rogue. I'm Klaus. And this is Doc.

And Chad's here somewhere. He's running around. He'll be back eventually. He'll be under here sometime.

I'm glad I'm here. I almost wasn't. Right? You were here before me actually.

I was expecting you to come in later. I had to come from down the phone. And I thought I'd get stuck in the traffic. But I didn't.

I'm here. Perfect. There was an accident on the 3-way. So as far as business goes, make sure if you haven't yet, hop onto our YouTube channel and give us a like.

And make your friends like us too. We need 100. We're up to 74. I'm pretty proud of us.

We need subscriptions. Subscribe. Subscribe and like and hit the notification. Smash that like button.

Smash that like button. I hate that phrase. Sounds violent. And then take it out for dinner.

And then after dinner, make a pay for the meal. Make sure you pay for the Uber. So we have an investigation coming up. It's going to be at the Barbary coast.

It's our witching hour. So we're going to start at 2 in the morning. And that investigation is Saturday, June 19th at 2 AM to 4 AM. And it's 8 AM.

It's early morning on Saturday. Now is that Saturday? Friday night. It's Friday night.

It's Friday night Saturday morning. Yeah. So it's actually Saturday the 19th on the tickets. It'll show Saturday.

So be aware that that's our witching hour 2 AM. So if you think like me, it's very, very late Friday night. It's 2 AM on Saturday. Friday into Saturday.

And we might actually put them up a little bit earlier than 2 AM. It might be 1.30 AM and meeting. But if you have never been on an investigation at 3 AM, that's, I mean, the witching hour, it's called that for a reason. That's when it really starts to get crazy.

When we usually do residential or most people don't like to be out 2 AM 3 in the morning often. So we do a little earlier. But if we can get out there at that 2 AM 3, 4 AM in the morning, that's when you really start getting some cool stuff. That'll be fun.

How many tickets are we going to be able to sell to that one? I think we've got it set for 25. 25. Excellent.

So get your tickets fast because I think that one will sell out pretty fast. It will sell it fast. So preliminary investigation we did, it's going to be nuts. Yes, in every different section of that location, we've got a little bit of something.

And when we've talked to a number of the employees, there are a number of them talked about things that have happened that they're aware of. And there was a situation with an employee there that has died. And we will be there on the anniversary of his passing and he is in there. And we have just a little resident, a hunter that kind of hangs out and dances and does different things.

So we've got a few people there that we know that are there and we've got some downstairs that we're not sure who's there. And the bar recoce will be providing some appetizers and things with this. So like we did with the dolts, it won't be quite the dinner of the dolts, but it will be there will be food. It'll be a great time.

So get your tickets. Since we've podcasted last podcast, is that a word? It's got to be right at this point. We went out to Merkyr and we've talked about this a little bit here and there the last few months, but we went out to Merkyr and did a service project, strengthened up some of the defenses, little picket fences around some of the graves and they were getting wobbly and broken and some of them were missing.

It's replaced slats that were missing from some of the fences and some of them that were broken and took the broken ones out and put them in. And some people were decided to try to dig up one of the graves. So Rog and I filled that back in. Yes, we did.

And if you check out our Facebook page, you can go and see where we went live and check out the experience live with us. So that was pretty fun. It felt got me in the fields. Yeah, a lot of painting, not everything was painted, but a lot of things were painted and cleaned up and this was not a we're going to go through and make it look like a pristine brand new cemetery, but we did want to shore up things that were starting to wobbly and help preserve it and wet wash and the new slats that we put on, they got a coat of paint and they're probably not a really good coat of paint.

They kind of looked like the old ones that were kind of warm. So Rog and I, it just reaffirmed that if you're ever following us to get somewhere, you'll get lost every time. Every time we got kind of rambled around in the boonies, but it was hilarious. We got there eventually.

We made it there. Good time. Still have the scratches on my truck to prove it. Now it's not hard to find Mercury Cemetery if you want to go out there and follow the things, but Rog and Raven took a bunch of the supplies in Rog's truck up around four wheeled and so that's where it was a little bit more difficult.

But it's really easy to find it. You can actually see the cemetery and some of the fences from the road. And again, if you check out the Facebook Live, you can catch Chad hauling paint up the walkway. Yeah, we ran out of paint.

Those old pickets sucked up the paint. I'm going to just suck them it up. Crazy. Yeah.

We brought a couple of gallons and they went really quick. I had to run into Twilla and get five more gallons and we used almost all of that too. So there's a boatload of paint out there, almost literally. So thanks to Borer for coming out and helping us out with that.

We couldn't have done it without them. Oh, they were great. They're great. And they do a lot of service projects actually.

They did another one at Cascade Springs just the next weekend. So they're, they love doing the service projects. So if you're looking to do a service project or a hookup with Borer, they've got service projects all over the place. And we had a good turnout.

We had about 25 people or more. It was good. We had pizza and donuts and soft drinks. Oh, we had pizza.

So much pizza. So much pizza. Like I was throwing it away a week later out of my fridge. So tired of looking at that.

So much pizza. I said, I'm going to leave you with the pizza and she's like, okay. And then I just, yeah. And then I ran really fast.

Three. Here's me. One for you. One for you.

One for you. One for you. One for me. Yeah, it's been great.

Doc family got three. Did they? I had seven. And then she sent me home with like a dozen donuts.

I was like, what is this? Better for you to eat them than me. Yeah, that's exactly what that was. That wasn't very fair.

When we do things, we do them big. Yes. Yes. I don't want anyone to go hungry.

Did you go hungry? Were you hungry? No. Okay.

See? No, I wasn't hungry. No, I wasn't hungry. So anyways, that was a wonderful time.

I think that that was great. We definitely left it better than we found it. We got to meet some other campers, some other people up there. That was interesting.

A photo crew was up there. So good times. We're going to be there again so we can make sure everything's looking good. We gave out a bunch of business cards for our podcast and we hope some of those people are listening.

We hope they're new. Right. Because we like to get new listeners. And along with that, as I always tell your friends about the podcast, we're really trying to expand our reach to get it to more people.

And so please share our podcast with others. Yes. And I've been trying to get out and find new places. I'm getting out on Facebook Live and I'm just trying to really interact with everybody.

So if you can come up with some ideas for us to go, places that you want to see, let us know. We're giving you opportunity to talk back with us and we would really like to hear back from you. We have some residential to talk about. So we headed back to Payson.

Payson is one of our favorite places when we're in Utah County. That's kind of the home base for Raven here. It's a hometown. We went to a place that we've been before.

We went to the homeowner before, but the first time we visited her, she was in Salem. Oh, she's in Salem. Different home. Different home.

Same people. This home could have been out of a magazine, right? Like I've never seen a home so magazine. I have not been home literally for two weeks.

My house looks like a tornado hit it and hers looks like it came straight out of the magazine. It's right out of the home. Beautiful home. Hobby Lobby magazine.

Home show. Home show. So in that one, we had some child spirits. We had a type two.

We had to give Newman a call. That one had a couple of different things and we had to go out and put some casket nails. I love the casket nails. I know, but not everybody might know.

He's one of the mediums we work with and he can cross things remotely. We had kind of a nasty type two and we kicked it out of the yard, but then we felt bad that it was hanging out in the neighbor's yard. And he didn't want to go willingly and I'm not that tough to kick him out that far. Newman was able to really find a few things that we were aware of that we kind of were aware of, but we didn't have access up there.

We weren't able to get up there. So Newman brings these little twists to the investigations, I think. So between all of us, I think we got everything cleared out of that one. We do appreciate Newman.

He's a great guy. We do. And I think Newman, you're a listener. So we're going to do Big Hill shout out for Newman and thank you.

And then outside of that, we did get to head back to Salt Lake County. However, it was via Zoom meeting. So that's always an interesting one when we make contact via Zoom meeting. We got a guest speaker.

We do have a guest speaker. So the reason we did the Zoom meeting is this was actually... We talk about... We call her a little Catholic grandma.

She is just the sweetest lady. I just don't use her real name on the podcast. But she is the lady and you've heard me tell the story before. Our group uses...

We have classifications for spirits, type 1, type 2, type 3. And it's her house that made us come up with this because somebody... Or you may have me told her. She had a demon in her house and scared the pants off of this portal cute lady.

And so we decided that after that, maybe we should come up with some code words that weren't quite as terrifying. And so she's kind of wisps lore. We love her. We've gone out a couple times for a couple of different things.

We couldn't get out as quickly as we wanted to to visit her. And so we thought we would do just a little Zoom investigation to make sure that... Hoping that things weren't too nasty and they weren't. So we still need to...

We tried to get out there this week but she wasn't feeling very good so we need to reschedule that. Right, right. Wonderful lady. We look forward to seeing her really soon.

Today we're going to talk about symbolism. And I'll be honest with you. It is a very, very, enormously, giganticly broad topic. We could talk about this for weeks.

Not only is it broad, it is also deep. It's like the ocean. We could have a whole podcast just on symbolism. It's like the ocean.

It's deep. Oh my goodness. And that's good night, folks. So we realized that there's no way.

No way we're going to be able to talk about everything or every aspect of this. But this is something that we have spoken with talk about on several different occasions. It's fascinating listening to him. So I am going to just start talking.

Oh, well, I better start talking now. Symbolism. It's one of my favorite things I think to dive into in research. I love world religions.

I like understanding deeper meanings of things. So I've spent a few years diving into particularly archetypal symbolism. And when you think about symbols, symbols are, you know, they can mean a lot of things. The same symbol can have multiple meanings to individual.

They're similar to parables. You can get as much out of a symbol as you're prepared to receive, I think. And so there's a couple of different thoughts about why certain symbols impact us on such a deep level. And the archetypes are kind of these primary symbols that kind of root back to our nature as human beings.

It's even broader than symbols, though, as I was looking at some of the research and listening to some of the YouTube channels where Carl Jung, Carl Jung, yeah, psychiatrist talked a lot about it. And I'm sure you'll get into this. But the depth of that, he goes, you can't really explain an archetype with a symbol. A symbol is the best representation of something.

But it's deeper. But it's much, much deeper than that. Right. So the idea of Carl Jung kind of proposed this idea of what's known as the collective unconscious.

And the idea behind that is that as human beings, there are almost learned, I would say, learned behaviors or we notice certain types of behaviors or certain types of patterns that are repeated over and over throughout society. And the idea is that some of these things carry on beyond our lifespan, that they're almost ingrained into our DNA, that they're ingrained into our species. Chad and I were talking a little bit about ducks knowing to swim. I think you gave an example about how there was a cat that was raising some ducks, which just seems like interesting.

Yeah, it was really interesting. And again, this gets down to what's innate, what's what is instinct for animals and us. And in this case, a cat who's instinct would be to kill a small bird or a duck, literally a baby duckling that was just hatched. And in this case, this cat had just had kittens.

The owners didn't know about it. It had been out in the barnyard. But it saw these little ducklings that had just been born that had been in the incubator. And it just took in these three little ducklings.

And the ducklings were actually suckling on the cat. And the cat was, you know, the first time they saw the cat, it had one of these little ducklings in its mouth. And it was actually bringing it back to the litter where they, you know, where the kittens and the other two ducklings were. The owners were kind of freaked out.

It's like cats don't take care of ducklings. But what they surmises that the cat's hormones were in that mothering nurturing thing to the point and she saw small fuzzy animals and she just nurtured them. She bonded to them and she nurtured. And the ducklings, you know, hung around with them.

Well, and it went on to say that ducks are born to just pack at the ground and eat like ducks do. They're not, they're not suckling animals, but for whatever reason, they did. I don't know if it's because they saw the cats doing it. I thought, okay, I guess that's what you do.

Right. Yeah. And then they're not getting into the nature of the nature. You get into a tradition.

So part of this is nurtured with the cat mother pulling it in and putting her arm around them and protecting them. But then she's looking at them like, what are they doing over in the water trough? Right. Because cats don't go over into the water trough and swim around.

And these brand new baby ducklings are out in the water trough. Right. They weren't coached. They weren't taught.

They just knew to do that. It was just innate in their nature. And the way that the use of symbols, I think as a culture, as a species kind of harkens back to these deeper innate feelings within each of them, every one of us. And Carl Jung, he came up with 12 different archetypes and I don't know that we'll go into all 12 of them.

And Carl Jung was a contemporary of Sigmund Freud. They did that. He was in the late 1800s. And I think he talked about 1960s or late 50s.

But he's world renowned psychologist and a contemporary with Freud. I've listened to some things about him talking about Freud and their relationship. And they worked in conjunction with each other and had different ideas on things. They had ideas that were common on things.

They were contemporaries. It was a really interesting YouTube that I watched on them. So a couple of the things that he would focus on, these 12 archetypes, there's different figures that we see in a lot of folklore. And even in the modern day in film, symbols like the magician or the hero or there's 12 of them.

Why answer this restress? Right. And you can look at Harry Potter, look at Lord of the Rings, look at all these things and you'll find Star Wars. Look at Star Wars.

And you'll see that almost all of them have very common symbols. You look at Star Wars and you've got Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's kind of the wise old man. You go to the Lord of the Rings and you've got Gandalf. There are these images are something that is it's easy for us to accept because I think they're a deeper part of each of our being and they represent literally parts of us and what we aspire to.

He also focused a lot on dream symbolism as well. And that when we have dreams about sometimes we'll wake up and go, well that was weird. And I don't know what that meant. You know, it's interesting about the dream symbolism.

I have a it's not a recurring dream per se because it dreams a little different every time, but it has a recurring theme in it. And the theme is water. And there were times in my life where I just was going through a lot of stress and a lot of turmoil. And I didn't put these together until a little later.

But when I was having stress and turmoil, there would be water in the dream. It's like I would go up the canyon and there'd be a little stream. It was cute. But then it would turn into like, you know, when you get runoff, you know, that spring runoff, where it's just churning and milky and frothy and you know, if you step in that you're going to die, you know, it's that kind, but I don't.

I'm usually in, you know, this pounding water and it's terrifying and I'm scared, but I live. And I got researching this because I thought, why am I always having these dreams? That just said that water in your dreams means how you're feeling and how you're perceiving where you are in life. And I was like, oh yeah.

And once I was out of that, you know, that stress in my life, I stopped having those dreams. And the interesting thing is with everything going on in the world that just seems crazy, I actually had the same dream just a couple nights ago, but I wasn't in the water, just like the people of the world were in the water. It's like my own psyche is saying, wow, the world is just really struggling right now. Isn't that interesting that your subconscious mind is using symbols that maybe you weren't conscious to?

And sometimes it takes a while for you to make that connection. But my interest in symbols, part of it started back when I was a teenager, I had a dream. I was talking about this dream. I had not that dream.

I worked with you in the terror right now. That was a great dream. That damn lagoon, right? That's another story.

We'll go into that sometime. No, but this dream was I was on a ladder climbing up some bright red rocks, you know, like in southern Utah, and I just kept aspiring to get to the top of this big red rock face and get going and going and going. And it was like the thing I wanted more than anything in my dream was to get to the top. And I, as soon as I reached the top and looked right over the edge of the cliff, there was a snake and the snake, you know, struck at me and fell back and fell off the ladder.

And kind of weird that the first thing that happened was I woke up and went, whoa, my life is not about aspiring to power. If I tried it was a spire to power, I will fall. And you know, I started looking into symbolism. I think about red being a very, you know, color symbolism.

It's a color of power. It's a color of, you know, in some ways, threat or aggression. Well, and even if, I mean, this is a little off the subject, but most restaurants pay it red because red creates hunger. And it's just another.

I think reds, oranges, yellows. All color color. Yeah. And so this kind of this kind of prompted my, I don't know, my diving into dream symbolism and just symbolism in general.

And it was so strange to me that I woke up and immediately knew what it meant. And you know, but I had to research like, okay, I mean, you know, when I started looking through dream symbol books, it made even more sense to me. And I thought, wow, you know, my subconscious mind was trying to tell me something. And if you learn what those symbols mean, I think you can get some deeper understanding of it for sure.

As far as symbolism, there's lots of types of symbolism. And that's why we can kind of take this wherever we want. There's color symbolism. There's number symbolism.

We talked a little bit about the Jungian archetypes. We didn't go into much detail there. Even the signs of the zodiac. There's a lot of, a lot of symbols that are in our everyday life.

I mean, every, every business had a logo, right? Well, and I found it interesting. I found a little topic, a little quote by Confucius and he says, signs and symbols ruled the world and not words or laws. Absolutely.

Everything is symbolic. Even some of the things we do when we do residential, you know, cleanse out spirits, we put down salt. It's entirely symbolic. And, you know, the homeowners, and we don't make the homeowners ask, we usually explain what we're throwing salt all over their house.

But we say, you know, the purpose of this, it's symbolic. You know, it's salt is a pure substance and negative entities can't cross pure substances. And it's all about intent and it's all about symbolism and by golly, it works. And sometimes in Hollywood movie, when you see them doing the salt, they'll pour, you know, an inch wide band.

And it doesn't need to be that much. It's just, again, it's the intent and what you're coming up with, not, you know, how much salt you're using. I think if you've got something super strong, I'd probably put gobs to salt, but we don't deal with anything that terrifying. But, you know, even there, salt is a symbol.

You see that in lots of different cultures. That's not, you know, something that's just unique to one person. Well, and even going back to salt, if you're into the scriptures, you know, it talks about the salt that's lost at saver. It's not talking about salt.

It's symbolic for people. Exactly. You know, when you say, you know, burning of incense, all of those things, you know, you go to a, if you go to like a Russian Orthodox Church, for example, you'll see incense burning of other churches where they bring incense. And, you know, the symbol behind that is you're taking prayers, things that are, you know, here on earth and that smoke is supposed to be symbolic of the ascension of your intent or your prayer to heaven.

And sending the prayer to heaven. Did you can't put a stamp on it? That's right. You can't just mail it to Jesus.

I'd like this to go express. But, you know, there's a lot of biblical symbolism. You know, I wasn't sure we can talk elemental symbolism if we want to be talked a little bit about this idea of smoke. Oh, I've got notes with, with we're going to go everywhere.

Oh, we're going to touch on everything just a little bit. Well, we can, uh, it's a shmarkish word. Let's talk a little bit about elemental symbolism just because it's easy. And I think it's something that people can really connect with.

You know, your four main elements are earth, fire, water, and air, right? And they're divided into earth elements and well, you can call them physical elements and spiritual elements really. You look at water and earth, those are tangible things, things that you can fill a cup with, for example, and they tend to simply tend to symbolize physical or earthly attributes. And then you look at air and you look at fire and they're not really tangible.

You can feel them, I guess, but you only hold them. It's like you put them in a cup. You can't, you know, you can't weigh them kind of with anything. They are those intangibles.

And it's that intangible aspect that people tend to attribute to spiritual qualities to those elements. Well, it's interesting because if you look into horoscopes at all, the horoscopes are divided into the elements. So for example, I'm a cancer and I'm a cancer so a water. I'm a Gemini.

I'm air. I hate the wind too. It's so weird. Well, see, I'm with me with water.

There's parts about water that I absolutely love, but there's parts about water that I find terrifying. But you know, and I don't know if it's just a subconscious. I've heard my whole life. Oh, cancer is a water science.

I don't know if it's just my subconscious. It's like, oh, water is my element, but I like water. It's dark, it's deep, it's cool. It doesn't talk yet.

See, fire is crackly and it's just be loud and noisy. And it can be loud. You've been to Niagara Falls. It can be noisy.

I was just going to say it can be quiet and deep or it can be noisy, depending on how it goes. But some people listen to the waves crashing into the seashore when they go to bed. I mean, it's a talker as well. But fire is never quiet.

I thought it was crackly crackly crackly. Have you heard a candle? Okay, fine. Fine.

I mean, everyone's a while there's liquor, I guess. Fine. If you don't hear them. No, that's true.

But what's interesting with a lot of this elemental symbolism is you see it a lot of places. You know, you'll see this union of water and fire kind of an idea or, you know, earth and air. They're opposing elements, but somehow there's magic in bringing those two things together. Something that's a very common thread throughout the Bible, for example, is you'll see a lot of this fire in water symbolism.

And it's more about bringing union to polar opposites than it is about kind of embracing one or the other. Because if you think of fire and water, you know, fire can evaporate water, but water can put that fire. I mean, neither one of them has ultimate power over the other. Right.

Well, there's more and more intense at that point. And what's kind of funny, one of the things that I've been reading about and take this for what you will, but if you look at religions throughout history, and I'm not, you know, if you look at the zodiac, there are certain periods of time, you know, there's different ages, the age of tourists, the age of aquariums. So we can sing that one. Yeah, everyone can sing the age of aquariums, I guess.

But you know, they say that there are these timespans that last a couple thousand years, plus or minus depending on who you talk to. And if you look at religions through these different times, it is kind of strange. If you go back to the Egyptians, for example, they operated during what we would have considered the age of Taurus in the zodiac, and a lot of their worship was very much birth-based, right? They built pyramids, they built these giant mounds, these giant structures, and they worship things like bowls.

Yeah, there's actually a ritual called the drowning of the bowl that the Egyptians used to do. It's very symbolic of what we can sort of like imagine them basically, is they would drown the bowl, and it would be, you know, basically taking the sins of the people and cleansing them kind of an idea. And so you look at where there's this earth element, Taurus being an earth sign, and the rituals and the worship and the societies almost built on this heavy earth focus, right? And then you start moving into the age of Ares, which is the ram, which is a fire symbol.

And this is where you start moving into Moses and Judaism and Jehovah and burned offerings and burning bushes and burning bushes. So fire becomes a big symbol. And this is where as they start embracing this fire symbolism, they start basically rejecting the earth symbolism, the golden calf, for example. That would be the penultimate rejection of the earthly symbol, right?

And they embrace this fire symbol with a god that's not tangible, with a god that is, you know, a spiritual focus, right? And so worship goes that way. They burn, they burn sheep, they burn rams, they burn lambs. That's the animal that they sacrifice to Jehovah.

So it's kind of odd that fire symbolism areas and the next phase of this zodiac kind of plays through. And this happens for a couple thousand years. And then all of a sudden you get this birth of Christianity who comes to Jesus who replaces the law of Moses and what symbol would most people associate with Jesus? The water, the water, as far as an elemental symbol.

Yes, water. As an elemental symbol, water, right? The whole focus was the fissure of men, baptism, you know. And so when you move into this new age, the focus changes.

And this is an idea of instead of worshiping a god in the sky, this was God made mortal. This is a spiritual being embracing humanity, embracing a physical element, right? This is Jesus being baptized. You know, people say, well, Jesus needs to be baptized.

You know, he says to fulfill the law. It's a symbol of God or the spirit coming to earth and embracing mortality, embracing the physical. It's interesting that that plays out that way. And then if you look at Jesus at the last supper, one of the things that he mentions is, you know, they said, well, what do we know?

What do we know? What do we know? What do we know? What do we know?

What do we know? What do we know? We know what to find you basically to look for a man holding a water jug. And if you look at the symbol of Aquarius, it's a man holding a water jug.

And it's weird to do that. You know, holding a water jug would mean it's a water symbol, but it's actually an air symbol. And so a lot of people think we're transitioning out of this age of Jesus where everyone embrace and so that's why society's kind of been moving away from Christianity. Interesting.

So yeah, it's been an interesting foray. And I'm not one of these guys who thinks that the zodiac really dictates a whole light in our lives, but it's been a very interesting pattern. And I thought it was interesting that specifically in the Bible, you know, with Jesus knowing he's going away, tells him to look for the man who's carrying the water jug to know where to go. And I know we've talked about symbolisms in the past.

And one of the things that you brought up with with Ares is, not Ares, Aquarius, Aquarius, is that air symbolism is also a sign of communications. Electricity, communications, and it's weird that we're now in an age where technology has given us instant communications. There's way we have ways of just communicating instantly between I can send you a text and it goes across the world if needed to, but that ability to know that ability we have is crazy. That's the age we're in.

It's like the exact opposite of what you'd see in the age of Taurus where everything was very concrete and focused. This is now everything is almost abstract and intangible. Intangible. I just think of everything that travels through the air radio waves and airplanes and rockets and it gets just.

So the next thousand years, what's our next element? Back to Earth. Yeah, we got to wait to go with the age of Aquarius, I suppose. But yeah, we would go back to Earth elements.

I'm trying to remember which one it is. I'm sure somebody listening probably remembers the Sodiac cycle better than I do. The Sun cycles seem to move in reverse from what the typical Sodiac does if I remember correctly. All I know is if Mercury is an intrograde but stuff happens.

You know that even going back to the whole Sodiac idea, if you look at the Bible, the word holy people say comes from the word Helios, which means sun. And Bibliobible comes from books. And so the actual title of the holy Bible would be the Sun books. Like I said, if you looked at these phases, which is kind of interesting to see some of that in the Bible.

And also there's this idea of the central figure being the son of God, the light of the world. You know, there's so much sun reference to Jesus as a character as an individual, right? And then I don't think that it's coincidental that there are twelve apostles and each of those twelve apostles in a lot of ways symbolizes one of the Sodiac signs. You know, the most obvious would be the backstabber Judas symbolizing Scorpio.

Or Scorpio. And there's some other ones that go and Gemini, the twin Thomas means twin. There's some interesting overlying symbolism there as well. And so, Sun symbolism is also something that we see in every culture, but it's not lost, I think in Christianity or in the Bible.

And when I was trying to bring up this focus of Sun worship to people, Sun has people questioning us about what day do we go to church? Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!

Sunday! Sunday! Sunday! Shapes are very much integral in symbolism, not only with elements, but just by themselves.

When you're talking about the sun, it just made me think, you know, in the Egyptian colors, Egyptian culture, the circle meant a lot of things for them. And one of them was representation of the sun god. They used the circle a lot to talk about him. And even in the Chinese symbolism, circle expresses heaven.

And if the circle is within a square, it's the coming together of heaven and earth, because they use the square as a symbol for earth symbol. Right. And if you take that back even, the shape of a pyramid, right? What is the base?

It's a square. And it comes up to a singular point. And it's the same symbol that you see. It's a circle and square symbol.

And so it's planted in earth, but it aspires to heaven. And just like, yeah, if you look at the, is it the temple of heaven in China, where the base is a square and the dome above it is circular, it's that same imagery. And it's intriguing to me that you see this everywhere. If you look at the flag of New Mexico, and I think it's the yellow with the red circle.

And then there's four rays that shoot out in three different directions. It's four rays in four directions. And the reason for that is just like you were saying, is, you know, circles represent spiritual things. And the reason for that is because if you try to calculate the circumference of a circle, you know, we use a, we use a number called pi and what is pi?

Three point one four one five nine. It's an eternal number. It goes on forever. And so when you're determining the circumference of a circle, truly, it's an eternal, it's an eternal number.

It has no end. Not only, you know, everyone understands the circle as, you know, when you draw it, you can't see a beginning or an end, but mathematically, it is without end because you use pi to calculate it. And then on the flip side, when we were talking about squares, go back to your four elements, we just talked about the earthly symbols, right? The four forms of matter.

You've got solid liquid gas plasma. You've got four seasons, you know, following the spring summer. There's four main times of day. There's sunrise, midday, sunset, midnight.

And so fours are very, very physical, very earthly based. And so you see them in every culture. We talked about New Mexico and China and Egypt. There's not only is there the number symbolism there, but there's an actual symbol of the square and the great thing about a square is you can, it's very finite.

You can determine the perimeter of a square. You can calculate it out very well. It's got 90 degree angles. And you can use any of the other angles to prove the other one is a 90 degree angle.

And so it's the exact opposite of a circle. But the most interesting thing about it is, you know, how many degrees are in a circle? 360? Right.

And how many degrees are in a square? 360? Right. It's four 90 degree angles.

And so even though they are very different in function, they are perfectly equal in degree. And you know, from a symbolic standpoint, what that tells you is, you know, this, there's some importance, the physical and the spiritual are of equal importance. And to try to neglect one of the other, I think is misguided. Rogue is just shaking her head.

Such a deep topic. Interesting fact, what shape cannot fall on itself. Ooh, I don't know. It's the circle.

Every other shape can fall into itself, but the circle cannot. That's why they make your manholes out of circles. You're talking about it. So yeah, you can't find an angle for it to drop exactly.

But if you have a square, you can find a way to make it. It's right. It's tilted up and boom. Interesting fact of the day.

I learned something. Symbolism is everywhere. You see it in everything. Like I said, we were just talking about seasons.

And not only is there that idea of fours, but you get into the symbolism of seasons. You look at the spring and it's symbolic of birth, right? And then you go to summer, which is the peak strength of the sun. It's the kind of your big, strong, healthy years.

I mean, my 20s. Yeah. And then eventually a transition into fall, which is symbolic of our gold. You know, they say the golden years is the time the leaves change.

And it's not only that, but symbolically, this is the time where we're able to reap the benefits of our work, right? This is the hardest season. And then eventually a transition into winter, which is death. And it's so interesting that our life cycles are patterned after that as well as beings.

You know, we can see so much comparison there. And that's why when you study the druids or any of these other cultures that were very close to nature, they celebrated all of these changes because they understood the connection between the earth and us. Now you were talking about symbolism in numbers as well. We touched a little bit on that.

But I know coming from people who I talk to on occasion at work and in places, I've had people talk about numerology and stuff. I don't know if you smile a little bit because they've heard numerology, but there's interesting things just about numerology. And some people really take that to heart and use almost as a religion like, oh, I see the number 31 everywhere now, you know, my life is all based around 31. I look for these numbers and I know each individual number has its own specific things, but I don't know if what your take is on numerology and numbers themselves.

With numbers, I mean, there is no denying that certain numbers invoke certain thoughts or feelings, you know, but like we were saying with symbols, you're going to get out of them when you're ready to get out of them too. And what I may interpret a meaning of a symbol to be someone else may interpret it to be something completely different. But in general, when you're looking at numbers, yeah, I mean, number one, it's kind of that unity, the singularity, whatever you want to call it, that's pretty easy. And then you look at twos and you start getting into this idea of duality.

And this is where things like creation happen. You know, when you look at the whole world is built off of opposites coming together. You have positive and negative charges, night and day, light and dark, yin and yang, masculine and feminine, physical and spiritual, however you want to define it. And it's all the same thing.

If you look at, you know, in Western society, we're not very good at identifying these things because I think we are very, we're based on a lot of concrete thinking. And if you look at Eastern religions, they're a lot more abstracted. So I think they pick up the symbolism a little bit better. But yeah, it's the twos that lead to creation, right?

It's the union of man and woman to create something else. And when you talk about progression, I use the phrase that one plus one equals three. And that's really what progression is. So when you bring two things together and you make something else.

And then that's where, you know, people talk about three being a symbol of power. I also, in some of the things I was doing is also the Trinity and, you know, in Christian cultures, you know, the Godhead or the Trinity and they talk about that. And I'll go a little further. I'm going to interject that as you know, I've got a couple of others with a couple of numbers a little further on that I thought were interesting.

Sure. Go with the Trinity. Go ahead. That's all I wanted to say because you've got more.

You know, with the reason, you know, you talk about power. That's one of the things. But there's so many, there's so many things that play into this as well. You look at, you know, the Trinity, the Godhead, God, the father, the Holy Ghost, and in a lot of ways, this reflects mind, body, spirit, right?

And those are things that make us who we are as well. Right. Some of the, when I was, you know, looking in symbolism and just kind of delving into the shapes and it talked about the triangle, it mentions it can represent a lot of things like you just said, mind, body, spirit, past, present, future, father, son, Holy Ghost, it can also do love, truth, wisdom, waxing, waiting, full. I mean, there's so many things that we deal with that come in threes.

Right. And, you know, and it's interesting because you go, why does a number three have such a big meaning? And yes, we talk about this triune nature that we have in a lot of, you know, aspects of ourselves. But also if you look at planar space, right?

You can have a singular point with one. You can have a single line with two, you know, with two points, you can connect them with a single line. It's not until you have three is the triangle is the smallest shape that creates dimension, right? You've got axes and creation can be built on those things.

And if you take one leg away, you've got that three-legged stool. Everything falls out. Right. And so that's where threes start coming in really big symbolically is this is creation occurs in that triune space because you use the two to get to three and it's through three that we're able to build and create and there's now dimension to what we are and to what we do.

You know, maybe Chad will have something more to say here about Trinity. I thought he was going to chime in, but he'll be back. So interesting that you're talking about three with these things because I, and one of the reasons why I've also heard that number seven means perfection, which is interesting that I mean, you know, you keep on that through about creation, but you can also, you know, be spiritual, you know, a spiritual heavenly kind of thing, right? And then you get to number four, I'm going to guess here the four means physical, yeah, earthly.

So the create to have perfection, you have to have three and four, which would be spiritual and physical. Right. Create is completion, right? It's exactly what seven tends to symbolize, you know, because you go from the threes being able to the capacity to create for is being able to materialize things.

Basically, that's the elemental nature of things. Right. For four, I mean, there's things like North, Southeast West, you know, the seasons when it comes to the cosmic elements, sun, moon, planet stars, human life, birth, childhood, adulthood, death, just like we talked about earlier, the elements, fire earth, air, water, I mean, a lot of things come in force as well. And you know, like we were saying, it's that that union is like, it's the mind, body spirit connection that allows for physical creation into things.

And that's where you look at all those, you know, that four symbolism plays in, you know, and then five, you just keep going. We'll talk about pentacles if you want the star or whatever, you know, symbol you want to use. Even the human body is kind of a symbol of five. You've got the round head that symbolizes spirit.

And then you've got your four limbs based on your somewhat square trunk. I suppose. What's the name of that? What's the name of that man that you see in medical with his arms and legs?

Leonardo da Vinci is the true vegan man. Yes, which I knew I had a name. Yeah. And what's interesting about that is so we talked about the head being kind of the spirit and then the limbs being the physical and it's that union of that that makes mankind, right?

It's that union of the spirit with the body. And when you look at the true vegan man, you know, everyone remembers, you know, the figure with the arms and legs, whatever, sticking out and remember the circle around it. But very few people realize there's also a square. And so next time you look at the Leonardo da Vinci's the true vegan man.

You can closer look and you'll see that there's also a square there. And that was not accidental. Leonardo da Vinci, you know, kind of progressed a lot of these concepts, I think as well. And there are symbols that are also frequently seen in alchemy.

So you can kind of see that there's this connection of, hey, we have a spiritual self. We have a circle, but we also have a physical self, which is our square. And then our dimensions, you know, kind of lays out in that symbol of the true vegan man. Right.

And I read a little thing that says if you want to see alchemy symbols, go look at old headstones because they use a ton of them on the old old headstones to mean you ever write any things. Yeah. So a ton of things you'll see in alchemy or you'll see in Freemasonry or whatever, you know, particular. I was going to go with the going.

But there's some great symbolism. If you look at one of the things that I was, you know, I talk with people sometimes about these circles and squares and you go, okay, well, let's talk about the tools that we make circles and squares with. You know, an architect uses a compass to make a perfect circle. You know, I'm not talking like a compass like an average getting compass.

It's the pointy compass that you put on the ground, you know, you put on the paper and you spin it around and actually it creates a circle and they'll use an architect square to make perfect 90 degree angles. And you'll see that symbolism in lots of places. That's a huge Masonic symbol. You see in masonry, there's some ancient Chinese symbolism.

You'll see it in alchemy with a symbol known as rebus, which is the, it's a hermaphroditic symbol. It's a union of man and woman. And if you look on the man's side, he's holding a compass. If you look on the woman's side, she's holding a square and you can see an Harry Potter with the circle and the square with the line.

It all ties together, you know, and so those are symbols to kind of look for. But you'll see them in lots of cultures. It's not something that's unique even to Freemasonry. You'll see them, you know, ancient Chinese and like we were talking about even in Native American symbolism, we've got circles and squares everywhere.

And so as we've discussed, there are tons of different symbols. I mean, we talked, you know, there's color symbolism as well. You know, talk about white meaning purity or, you know, we talked a little bit about red being passion is kind of the big thing there. Green being fertility.

And when you look at green lights, it gives you the okay to proceed, you know, and red is that warning to stop. And you all means go like hell. Go like hell. Yeah.

It doesn't mean you're like hell. This place. My four year old pulled me down the way back from the beginning of the day. Green means go red means stop and it's go fast.

Go fast. Yeah. And you'll notice them more and more and you know, our whole we communicate through symbols, our flags are symbols, you know, business logos or symbols. Emojis are saying, yeah, in fact, we were no longer using words, which are also symbols.

You know, we're just using pictures these days. It seems like back to the different days. Well, and in some ways, the emojis and those kinds of things can, can they more or additional information than just the words do because people can read words. It's like, okay, are they being sarcastic?

They've been, you know, and the emojis have actually given us a way in context to give some context of, you know, the goofy smile or the crazy looking smile that you can add a little bit of context through the symbol where in verbal communication, oftentimes you'll pick that up through voice inflection and those kinds of things. Right. In written communication, so many times people will take things wrong. And I really think the emojis have helped a lot of people communicate that.

Yeah, not running into trouble saying things and be able to let people know it's a joke or whatever. But I do, I think our society is embracing that a lot more. I think we in a lot of ways have lost deeper meanings to certain symbols, but you know, the more you study and the more you, you see the more you realize that almost everything is symbolic. And there's, you know, I don't want to become a conspiracy theorist here, but I feel like you'll find symbolism in everything.

All it is. All it is. We talk about you a little while back and all the symbols there too, but every holiday symbolizes some transition throughout the year generally. And we touched a little bit on that when we talked about kind of some of the pagan stuff.