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Hurry, Hyundai Sunday is a day you don't want to miss. Conditions apply, visit HyundaiCanada.com or your local dealer for details. Let's talk date line. One of your old episodes I recently watched, I think it's called Haunted.
It's their investigating a pair of double murders that took place in Nebraska years apart and police are starting to realize they think they're dealing with a serial killer. One of the things in that that I thought a lot about after was there's a moment, one of the victims was an 11 year old, I think it was Tom Hunter. There was a moment when you're doing interviews with some of the families and you say something about how grief presents itself in different ways. For me, I think about that a lot when I'm covering stories because it's hard to know how anybody will react in a traumatic situation. But I also think of recent cases where there have been instances where people have felt like their family has come under a microscope unfairly.
There was a case recently involving Adventists where he and his wife were murdered and there was a situation where the brother-in-law and I spoke to him where he talked about people speculating when he was doing the interviews of thinking he was behaving in a way. He had nothing to do with this and how painful it was for him and his family. I was curious when you think about that concept of sort of grief presenting itself in different ways. What have you learned in that regard and how does it impact the way you cover stories? One of the things I never say in Dateline and that I try not to use if we get interviews on this is the idea that settling one of these cases, figuring out who it was, maybe locking somebody up, represents something called closure because that doesn't exist.
It's a nice idea but it is not reality. I hate it when people talk about, well, now the family can have some closure. That's not going to happen. Your life is split in half the part before and the part after. I think that the ripple effect of murder is something that isn't as well understood.
I certainly didn't understand until I started covering this which was about 20 years ago at Dateline. The extent to which things that happen, these losses that families suffer, end up affecting people who maybe didn't even know the person who was killed. Kids who grow up and then have families of their own and then they have a kid in junior high who says, can I go to the sleep away? The answer is absolutely not. You cannot.
Everybody else is going to. You're not. They can't even really, parents sometimes can't really explain why that is. It mirrors too directly the situation that their own family never went through. I think the idea of the distance and time sort of mitigates what people feel.
Again, it's like closure. It's a nice idea. It's not always real life. What are these stories that you've done and the families that you have gotten to meet? Nicole Schmidt is here.
Gabby Petito's mom. You and I both have been able to meet her. She's such an amazing person. For me, when I think about that story and all the news coverage that came around it, I find hope because I think that it is the lesson that comes from it is that there is a chance that everybody can do something that can't have a big impact. How has that been for you?
Seeing families go through the unimaginable, being put in positions they never asked for, having their lives are rapidly changed and then choosing to use it to do something. Sometimes what we see on Dateline shatters people and it's ended marriages. It has reduced people to a puddle. Sometimes it transforms people. I did a story right at the beginning of our focus on true crime in San Diego about a woman named Tori Van O.
She and her almost infant son. He was killed and she was killed by the baby's father who did not want to pay child support, but I think mostly did not want to embarrass his family. I thought that was sort of the motivation. He's locked up now. Tori's mom sort of fell apart after that, losing her daughter and her grandson.
Then picked herself up and a couple years later was like victim advocate of the year in California. Now when I encounter families who are having a difficult time, which is not uncommon, I send them to Tori's mom, Dana Eros, and she's been able to help people. Tracy Matheson, who's daughter Molly was murdered. There's a thing called Project Beloved, which I urge you to all take a look at. It's a similar kind of thing which was spawned by the loss of someone.
It's like the smart family in California who even though a man was convicted of killing Kristin, their daughter, they haven't stopped for a second. They want her body. They know she's dead. They want her remains. They're still putting pressure on law enforcement to find it.
I think they will at some point because they're relentless. You see both sides of this. You mentioned Kristin Smart. There's been a lot of activity in terms of searches related to Kristin Smart of late. What do you make of that?
Look, I think a lot of it is due to a couple of things. The smart family, as I just said, won't give up. They have remained very focused on getting a result in that even after their daughter's murder was convicted. I think it's also a tribute to the sheriff there who, when he was elected, which was some years ago, made a pledge during the campaign that he was like, this was like the big unsolved case in that jurisdiction. He wanted to make it a priority.
He said that he would and then he did. That's part of it. The other part of it, which was this great sort of X-factor, was that, as a lot of you probably have a podcast played a huge role in that case. In some ways, that's what I want to give law enforcement and the sheriff's office sort of the most credit for because frequently when someone unorthodox walks through the door, whether it's a private citizen or a private eye or a podcaster or a journalist and says, I have information on your case. I know some things that you might want to know.
Frequently, the law enforcement is not terribly interested in talking to those people. They say, great, fill out this form, which I might never read. But in this case, the podcaster, a guy named Chris Lambert who has a podcast called The Burrow Backyard, that was really sort of instrumental in getting that case over the finish line. And so a huge amount of credit is due not just to him for the sort of way he presented it, but also to the smart family and law enforcement which legal listened and was willing to take information from what was at the time a non-traditional source. And I think you'll probably be seeing more of that as the years pass.
When we come back, Allison and Josh discuss a theme running through several of his recent episodes, stalking, and what more the legal system can do to protect victims. Hey, Ontario, come on down to Bet MGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, The Price Is Right Fortune Pick has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at Bet MGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinko, Cliffhanger, and The Big Wheel into fun casino game features.
Don't forget to download the Bet MGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on The Price Is Right Fortune Pick. Pull up a seat and experience The Price Is Right Fortune Pick, only available at Bet MGM Casino. Bet MGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to H.E.H.E.E.E. Ontario only.
Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connect Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming, Ontario. Every day, people come to the YMCA looking for something, the confidence that comes with learning to swim, the energy of a new fitness routine, the excitement of trying something new, the friendships that start at camp, and along the way they find something bigger, a community where children grow, families connect, and people with all ages feel confidence, discover new strengths, and feel like they belong. Feel what it means to be greater together.
Join today at YMCAGTA.org. At Hyundai, getting into your next vehicle has never been easier. On Sunday, October 18th, select Hyundai dealers are opening their doors for an extra day, giving you even more time to shop and save, finance a new Kona or Elantra from 0% and get a $1,500 bonus on select models. Hurry, Hyundai Sunday is a day you don't want to miss. Conditions apply, visit HyundaiCanada.com or your local dealer for details.
Two of your episodes that really stood out to me for talking Season 34, Crystal Crew and Megan Fox. For people who maybe haven't seen those episodes, and I think probably most people have, give us an overview of those, and then we're asking you more broadly about some systemic issues I think it brings up. Crystal Crew was a mom and an engineer and a wife in the Denver area, killed by her stalker, who she thought was her high school boyfriend, but who turned out to be her husband.
His motivation apparently is that she was going to leave him, and he thought that if he could make her afraid of this phantom stalker that he had created, that she would come back to him. And then when he realized that that wasn't going to work, and that in fact he was going to be found out, and then he would be on the losing side of what was going to be a lopsided divorce, then he felt that he had no choice but to kill her. That story is interesting because police in Broomfield, Colorado, which was just outside Denver, had written search warrants for the phone and internet companies that this phantom stalker was using to contact her steal.
So they'd written warrants for phone and internet and text companies trying to figure out where this guy was and where these texts were coming from. And that information was not made available until the day that Crystal was murdered in her garage. Then the police department went back to those companies and said, now we have not just a stalker, but a killer on the loose, and we need that information right away. And it arrived within hours, making it clear that that information could have been provided before she died. And if that information had been provided, she almost certainly would have thrown her husband out of the house, changed the locks, she certainly wouldn't have allowed him to stand behind her in the garage, which was where he was when he murdered her.
So that made Crystal's family through their grief. Her cousin Becky, who was a domestic violence prosecutor, began lobbying the Oregon State Legislature where she lived to pass a law called Crystal's law. And they did pass it, and it's now on the books in Oregon, and it requires that in stalking cases, there is a very short clock on companies that receive law enforcement search warrants to respond with that information. And that is a wonderful development, and I look forward to it expanding to all 50 states. And the fact that we played anywhere on that at all is wonderful, but that was Crystal's family at work.
The Morgan Fox episode was outside the Canalile area. She was being stalked by someone at work. All these people were did FedEx in a packaging facility, and he murdered his coworker, who he was clearly obsessed with, and she merely saw him as a friend. So one of those is sort of workplace stalking, and the other one is sort of a more traditional form of stalking. I ended up doing all the work on stalking because of those two cases.
And I didn't know this before we started down the Crystal Crew story road, which is that stalking is not even a felony in about half the states in the United States. It's about where domestic violence was about 30 to 40 years ago, which is that frequently the response from the criminal justice system is, you better stop doing that. But when you think about the cases that you have covered, when you look at statistics today, the CDC says one in five women in the United States have experienced, and this is as of 2024, have experienced some sort of stalking incident in their lifetime. It amounts to like 22.8 million women in this country alone. And you think that's just the ones that are reported.
Correct. And so, you know, when you talk to people with experience this will say they feel like, if I go report nothing will be done. And then maybe the person who's doing it is going to get mad. Maybe the situation will get worse. And as we know from domestic violence, much more attention and much more severe penalties are required than just essentially saying, you stop doing this, don't make me come back here.
But, you know, stalking requires a concerted, deliberate effort and series of efforts to do something. And so much of it now has moved from parking across the street from somebody's house to online. And the laws need to reflect that. And they need to reflect how closely stalking is frequently followed by other crimes, many of which are significantly more violent, dangerous and frightening. And so, like, we're kind of at the infancy of things evolving with that.
But that is the thread that unquestionably connects both of those cases. And unfortunately, I guarantee you we're going to be doing more. You talk about it being kind of the infancy, at least legally speaking. But I look back and I think 1990 in California, you had one of the first anti-stalking laws passed. It was considered landmark legislation.
It came after a series of high profile murders that had come from a stalking situation and were attempted murders. And essentially what that law did at the time in essence was that, okay, there are some behaviors that maybe individually will not amount to a crime. But if there is a pattern, that's something that could be criminally prosecuted. And the idea behind that law was saying the pattern maybe changes things. When you think about the legislation that was passed in the 90s, that has looked at and often framed as these landmark moments, legally speaking, do you think they've done enough to change the course that was happening?
Clearly not. But, you know, and as I said, it's got it. I mean, a lot of the laws that are on the book sort of don't reflect cyber stalking, like at all. That's all changed with social media and the fact that everybody has a phone in their hand now. That's a whole other aspect of this.
But no, I mean, I remember when I was a local news reporter in Los Angeles, an actress named Rebecca Schafer had been murdered by this guy who got her address from the DMV and came to a door and killed her. And one of the laws that was changed and was all that is you can't get that kind of information. But like, that's a great start. But it didn't go much beyond that. So, I mean, you know, for example, on the search warrant thing, phone internet and text companies will tell you, we get thousands of requests for law enforcement all the time.
And we do not have the personnel to answer all of those search warrants. And we generally rely on law enforcement to tell us which ones are urgent and which ones are not. And of course, the other thing is that law enforcement has figured out that if you say it's urgent, you're going to get the results back quicker. So that, you know, like it's not always as urgent as maybe they make it sound. So the idea of Christiels law, which would be great if it were expanded nationally, is that in stalking cases, it requires a much more immediate response by the tech companies than has previously existed.
Again, you're working a 30-year-old case homicide. It might not matter as much if you get the phone records back today as opposed to getting them tomorrow. But it does matter in a stalking case. When we come back, Josh answers some questions from the audience, including one about his good friend, Keith Morrison. Hey, Ontario. Come on down to Bet MGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, The Price Is Right Fortune Pick, has to offer.
Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show only at Bet MGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinko, Cliffhanger, and the Big Wheel into fun casino game features. Don't forget to download the Bet MGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on The Price Is Right Fortune Pick. Pull up a seat and experience The Price Is Right Fortune Pick, only available at Bet MGM Casino.
Bet MGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to Wager, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGamingOntario.
Every day, people come to the YMCA looking for something. The confidence that comes with learning to swim. The energy of a new fitness routine. The excitement of trying something new. The friendships that start at camp. And along the way, they find something bigger.
A community where children grow, families connect, and people with all ages feel confidence, discover new strengths, and feel like they belong. Feel what it means to be greater together. Join today at YMCA GTA.org. At Hyundai, getting into your next vehicle has never been easier. On Sunday, October 18, select Hyundai dealers are opening their doors for an extra day, giving you even more time to shop and save.
Finance in new Kona or Elantra from 0% and get a $1,500 bonus on select models. Hurry, Hyundai Sunday is a day you don't want to miss. Conditions apply. Visit HyundaiCanada.com for your local dealer for details. We have Mike Stans. If people want to start lining up to ask a question, we have a question.
Could you tell Keith how much we miss him here at CrimeCon? You mean he'd hear a crime con? Yes, I'll tell him. He's definitely going to be on plenty of stories in the next few months, but he needs to come to CrimeCon. A quick question for you. I have a friend whose daughter was murdered and could use some direction from an advocate to advocate for his own daughter's case.
How would I get in touch with or he get in touch with Tori's mom? Danna Aroz, her name. H-E-R-R-O-Z. Dana read like 50 books about how to survive recovering from grief, but none of them were about dealing with violent loss. They were all about what if family members of yours dies from illness or car accident or something.
And so she contributed to one. There's a book on Amazon called The Murder Survivor's Handbook. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere, but it is on Amazon. And that's been useful for a lot of people. Okay, great. Thanks. You look over here? Yeah. Oh, hello.
Hey, Josh, I'm Keith Sharon, the host of The Murder on Music Podcasts. Oh, yes. You and I worked on a similar case in Southern California about the death of Cathy Torres. And I thought it might be good for you to illustrate the links of advocacy that her mother and Mary Bennett went to. Yeah, I mean, that's a perfect example is what Mary Torres went through.
She was pretty sure I think she knew what had happened. I mean, she wasn't just advocating the law enforcement like get to work or work hard. She was like, no, no, this is who it is. Let's focus on that. And got a job at the police department. Right. And they had to stare at her every day at the desk next to the chief of police.
Right. Yeah. And then literally came inside the building, which is just an amazing thing. Good to see you. Thank you. Yeah. Go ahead. Hello. I'm Stacy with womenininhorror.com.
And I have a question that I think the answer is yes, but I have to ask Josh. Have you seen the Bill Hader impersonation of you? There's an impersonation of you. Yeah. I saw it.
So the day that it happened, we heard sort of through like back channels that like, you know, you guys should watch Kimmel tonight. Right. And we I guess Kimmel staff was the most of called or somebody that maybe see did. So I was told you have to watch, but I didn't know why. So then I saw it the night at air.
And I was like, it was incredible. Also, I would have told you that you couldn't imitate Dennis, but his imitation of Dennis was so great. So so yeah, now people have sent that to me like a thousand times because every time it reruns people think it's the first time. They've seen it like I have. Yeah. So so yeah, it's amazing. Yes, I've seen it. I've seen a lot of times.
I've never met Bill Hader. And you know, there's this kind of like sort of unspoken rule in Los Angeles, which is where I live. And I think where he lives that you know, you know, sort of go bother people like that. Like if they're, you know, you see them in a restaurant or something like that. But if I do, I do ever see him, I'm going to have to like interrupt his dinner.
Oh, you've got to. I can't not thank him for that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, just really quick. I was just wondering, I know you do some cases where there's like law changes because of something that happened to somebody.
But do you ever go back many years later as investigative reporters and follow up to see like what what did change because I'm thinking a particular case that from my neighborhood that was covered that nothing did change. And I don't know like I would like to see like many 10 maybe 10, 15 years later go back and like okay, we've done that was missed here. We've done that we've done that on podcasts. And if you're a premium subscriber podcast, you can listen to a thing called After the Verdict, which is updates on stories. We're not just what people are doing, but exactly things like that. Like what came of this issue that we brought up in the story.
Thank you very much. Thank you. This feels like a good place to talk about Ellison's podcast, Video Podcast, which is on Netflix, which is something you should all be checking out. I've already watched it and found it kind of hypnotic. So yeah, that's not like I already like a point of viewing in my house.
And it's called allegedly. And so I'm sort of looking forward to seeing where that goes. And I'm also looking forward to finding the right case where I can. I know I really want to cross over episode. I've asked repeatedly. So now that I have you saying in front of people to do it, everybody help me remember this.
We got to find the case, but I'm going to be on there with her. Thank you guys. Well, that's it for Talking Dateline for this week. But get ready for my new podcast series before and after with Lester Holt, that drops later this month. Starting on September 14th, I'll be talking to Jeremy Renner, Colin Kaepernick, Gabby Giffords, and more about the moments that change their lives forever and their resilience in the face of the unimaginable.
For early access, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks everybody for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories or about anything else you can write to us on social media at at Dateline NBC. You can also leave us a voicemail at two one two four one three five two five two for a chance to be featured right here on Talking Dateline. You can also watch the video version of Talking Dateline, well not this one, but most episodes on Peacock or YouTube.
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