I'm Craig Malph-Cheers Cheers Cheers I've always been a glass half bowl kind of guy And now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too Some really fascinating folks who shared their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges Their stories are funny, and my kin So I hope you'll join me each week and who knows? You might just come away with your own glass half bowl Search glass half bowl with Craig Malph-Cheers from today On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts What did you do to your family? You're lucky to make it out alive Streaming on Peacock These men are going to come after me Taking them out, it's my only chance Put a bullet in your head Looks like a family was running drugs, execution stopped killing it We're after the keys I already done who they might have been running for The cartel killed my family I'm going to kill them, all of them MIA, streaming May 7th, only on Peacock Hi everybody, I'm Keith Morrison and we are Talking Dateline Today I'm here with a reprobate named Josh Makowitz to discuss his fate as episode The Professor and the Poet Interesting title, Josh, did you pick that one out? Let me put it this way, no Yeah, no If you have not seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock Or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed And then come right back here for our talk And later we'll have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the killer's ex-girlfriend Then I'll be joined by Dateline producer Rachel White to answer social media questions about the episode Are you ready, Josh?
Let's do this I have never been more ready There's literally nothing you can do right now that will upset me Okay, fine So this was an interesting story, Josh, what particular part of it drew you to doing this? Well, you know, this is a story that has one thing in common with a lot of stories we do Which is that it involves a person who was the victim in this case, Sue Markham She was smart, she was accomplished, she was together, she was no pushover But she had a blind spot She had a blind spot for this guy, Hori Landeiro So she originally met as Spanish teachers, she wanted to learn Spanish Then he got her into yoga And then she just saw him as like the guy that she wanted The idea of the guy that she wanted Certainly at some point they were involved Although that appears to be brief She told other people, family members later That she recognized that the relationship was all one way That he was never going to return her affection But many people would stop at that point Realizing that the interest that they have in someone else Is not going to be returned She could not stop And the result was that she put herself in this terrible position with this guy We run into those characters a lot in this line of work And they are on the surface charming, they are able to somehow attract women Maybe, as you say, bright, smart women, who are nevertheless They know how to fill a gap in a person's life Was she someone who had not had a long-term boyfriend or husband Or had difficulty finding a romantic relationship? I'm going to say yes, I think she had never been married It doesn't seem like there was any great love in her life that had come and gone I think maybe she thought this guy was that What she didn't see was that this is not the guy for you And many people told her that And she did, but also a thing that we're going to recognize Which is she stopped talking to her friends about it Because she knew what the reaction was going to be And so the result was there was no one around to say Wait, what are you doing? I think all her friends today have regrets That one, she didn't tell them about it And two, they sort of weren't more forceful But nobody wants to argue with a friend I mean, if you're doing something wrong, I might tell you once I'm not going to keep breaking it up If you've made it clear, you don't want to talk about it Sure, and she's a university professor for God's sake I don't think anybody thought, you know, this guy's violent This guy's physically dangerous, you need to get away from it Don't ever be alone with it I don't think anybody ever said that to her or thought they needed to Well, they don't advertise themselves, you know, somebody who is Smooth and olegenious and apparently very charming But has a violent undertow, they're not going to say Hey, by the way, I can be a violent guy, what should you know?
The prosecution theory of the case was that he came over We're not clear why, is he trying to get more money out of her? Probably didn't have any money, is he trying to calm her down? We don't know, we don't know, but they have a drink together And then something happens, and there's a fight And then he realizes, this is a state theory That he can't go back, and they start physically battling And he's much bigger and stronger than she is Did he go over there to kill her? Not clear, not clear However, after the fact, the whole business of moving the car And putting it into place where some idiot might steal it Of course, somebody did In case he's trying to cover up the crime at least Oh, no, this was a very smart guy, this was a very smart guy And I mean, look, you know, in a lot of jurisdictions in the world A guy with a criminal record who's caught driving the dead woman's car And runs from bullies, like that's your suspect And everybody can go early with him Yeah, but to their credit, I think like every county police thought This guy is kind of hapless, and he's a thief, and he's kind of a dope, maybe But this doesn't feel like the killer, but it's an avenue in investigative work You have to go down, because you're going to get asked about it I mean, there were a lot of burglaries in that neighborhood We should talk about the neighborhood, too, because I know that place very intimately Well, yeah, the neighborhood went downhill after you lived there, right?
Well, and why do we think it went downhill is the question, right? But, you know, I mean, the cool people stopped coming when I moved out Let me just say that, that's not true So before we pick up the case again, tell me about this neighborhood and where it happened This is the suburban Montgomery County Maryland outside Washington, D.C And, you know, until I actually showed up at the crime scene Which was our first shoot on the first day of shooting for this day line story It was only then, because Montgomery County's a big place It was only when I showed up at the actual scene of the crime that I realized That it was the neighborhood that I had grown up in My parents and I moved there in 1964 And we lived in three different houses, probably within five miles of where this murder happened And I've probably driven by that house or been driven by that house as a kid Like maybe like a thousand times I mean, I had friends who lived really within walking distance there Her fire station was our fire station Her public library was our public library I mean, I've ridden my bike pass there all, you know, many, many, many, many years ago But to get back there, to recognize where you are must have been quite a moment It was, you know, and also, you know, that part of Montgomery County, you know, I hadn't changed that much It was just me and my parents back then, my brother hadn't been born yet I mean, or as my dad referred to it the good old days But it was an interesting place to live And then later, later, now that we're talking about that I became a reporter at the local ABC station, WJLA Channel 7 And so then I also like covered Montgomery County Which is where I met the guy who's now the state's attorney But at the time was a line prosecutor, John McCarthy And it was great to be a reporter in the same area that I'd grown up in Because I knew my way around Sure, you know, this is beginning to resemble an old-fashioned British detective story Because, you know, it's a reporter drawn back to his home community And why, there's a murder, he should cover And how interesting the murder is And he follows it around from place to place in his old neighborhood Having feelings of connection Right, and then what happens? Yeah, and then, but then he gets together with the girl he left behind Doesn't that happen? Because that didn't happen on this one That's not a British murder mystery, you're getting all American on me now Yeah, that did not happen Hang on, I'm going to Josh, we're going to take this little break I'm going to talk about this in a minute, but can we take a break here?
And then we'll come right back and discuss the rest Sure, right back As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening With Here's the Scoop, a new podcast for NBC News With Me Your Host, Gazzardisougio We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories With NBC News's trusted journalist, it's a fresh take That's sharp, thoughtful, and it's informative Bringing you closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world On the front page, The Zeitgeist Here's the Scoop from NBC News Listen daily on SiriusXM Get the best of NBC News with a subscription Fewer ads, deeper access, and exclusive content And now, during the Xfinity member celebration Members can get an exclusive 50% off an annual subscription Head to Xfinity.com slash membership to learn more Xfinity, imagine that Subscription automatically renews each year at 6599 plus taxes and fees until cancelled He was a young Marine. She didn't care about convention. They made a life together. Then one night, the Marine died And then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected And utterly bizarre turn.
I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and this is Trace of Suspicion, an all-new podcast from Bigline Listen to all episodes of Trace of Suspicion now, wherever you get your podcasts Well, talk about the, uh, the perp here a little bit more So, Jorge was a poet, a published poet, a published poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet, a poet A and a poet, a poet, a poet. He did over it So Jorge was a poet, a published poet, a poet, a poet apparently, yes, yes Yes, which I find surprising, but you know, people have Many talents, is his poetry any good, has ever rare city, is it? We read it? We read it black.
Yes. Not world class at night, maybe it's the translation that's the issue A lot of very, very purple, Jpleasey, let me just say But what's incredibly unusual is that he wrote poems or someone with his exact Name wrote the poems and published them while he was on the run and the poems are about being being pursued by the FBI. I don't think he ever realized that anybody would, who was chasing him would see them. I think he was doing this for his own sort of, you know, or was he being a bit of a daredevil?
You never know? Well, you know, he was kind of haunting police in the conversations he had with him. Like at one point, they, they posed as a faculty member from American University was doing a story about so, and they said, you know, can we come to Mexico and interview you? And, and he was like, yeah, come on and bring your Kevlar, meaning you're, you're bullet-provest, right?
So, you know, clear that, you know, I don't know if that was a direct threat, but it's certainly an admission that person was not a reporter. So did he know that the FBI was going to see his poetry talking about them? I don't know, but you don't often see fugitives from the FBI right poems about being pursued by the FBI. I don't think, yeah, I don't think Capone panned any verses.
It just makes your bad guy a more interesting character, that's for sure. It does, that it does. Wouldn't you love to have been at the place where they finally arrested outside? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, right. It was just on the street outside, as he's walking down the street to get a soda, I think, and they stop him. Those are always the times the cop told me once the thing that gets to him the most about his job he knows when he's going to arrest somebody, you know, even if there's a long route through the court system, that when he takes that person out of their home, puts him in the back of a car to take him in for questioning, that person is never going back to that place again. Right.
And they'll try to rearrange things so that, you know, the dishes are done or something, so that it's, or the piece of paper that they need to look at when they return will be there. And the guy is letting them do these things, knowing he's never coming back here. You're not coming back. We got him.
Never see this life again. Yeah. Dramatic moment. One interesting thing that I think didn't make a story, the TV story is you've seen this.
Cops place a lot of importance on what suspects do when they're in custody and they're alone, right? Because innocent people are climbing the walls, right? Like, I can't believe I'm here in this interrogation room, get me out of here. I'm a lawyer.
I didn't even get into it. Let me explain everything to you, right? Guilty people, the thinking goes, can doze off. They get their feet up.
They're like, because they know they got a long stretch ahead of them. Well, on the plane back home, this is a guy who's been plucked out of Mexico, identified by DNA and is now in leg irons and cuffs and knows that he's looking at a considerable amount of time like that. He falls asleep on the plane going home. And that they found that interesting, I think.
Yeah. What about this? So I'm a little confused about Rocio. Is that her name?
Rocio the new girlfriend? That is her name. Was that in Mexico? Yes.
That was what Rocio was a woman that he met in Mexico. I think he met her through yoga. And then they became friends. And then they became more than friends.
And then he and his dogs moved in with Rocio and her kids. And Rocio tells a different story than I think Sue Markham would have told in some ways, which is she says, you know, he was very sweet to me. He was very interested in me. And then things change.
You know, we're living together. He cheated on me. She says during sex, he would choke her in a way that she found particularly alarming. Right.
He would separate her from her friends. He was sort of more typical controlling violent behavior. He was verbally abusive. Now, this guy is a guy that that personality is a guy that you and I have covered like dozens of times.
That person is like a lot of the guys that get arrested on the day and they're not writing any poetry. Finally, she sort of summoned up her courage and knew that she needed to get away from this guy. She threw him out of her house and she got an order of protection against him and they were done. And then later, after she heard even arrested, she's not the person who called the FBI from everything we know.
She did not realize that he was a fugitive only when he was a bad guy. Then she called investigators and gave her a story. We had this extra clip of sound from your interview with Rocio when she's talking about her struggles with her relationship with Jorge and how she ended up sharing her story. So shall we have a listen?
Yes. What made you call police in Maryland? Since it was so similar, what happened? I thought that this person was having a serial conduct and maybe my experience could have to prove that.
That took a lot of courage, you know, to call the police in Maryland. You didn't have to do that. Well, I think I didn't have any other choice. I feel like that's the only path for me.
I understand when people have told me that I'm brave, but I don't know how to explain it. There's no other way I can go. The interesting thing about her story, I think, is that there's the question of what's she going to be his next victim? Whether anything worse was going to happen, that we're not going to know.
There wasn't any insurance policy. It was certainly heading in a bad direction. But yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any question that she took steps to protect herself and her family and that was the right thing to do. I think the message here pretty clearly is when somebody is trying to isolate you and keep you from talking to people who are going to tell you that the guy you're with is the wrong guy, that is a giant red flag.
And you should not do that. When you talk to your friends, the advice of your friends is worth something. It's the biggest red flag of all. Oh, yeah, no, no, that's a very, very bad sign.
I agree. Yeah. It's time to say goodbye now, Josh. And you think it's time to say goodbye, but actually, I happen to know that you have been a very active guy recently.
You just left. Yes, you just left the confines of your comfortable home here in Southern California. And you did a jailhouse interview, didn't you, for an upcoming story? Yes, I did.
Right. I just want to say you are, I love that you are out there and you are still chasing the bad guys. Oh, stop it. Right.
But here, I came away from this and perhaps I'm naive, Josh, I allow that possibility every day that frequently I am. But I went and I conducted a jailhouse interview with somebody who had been convicted of murder, who will spend the rest of his days in prison. And I left there thinking he might not belong there. Oh, I mean, I've heard lots of people offer their claims and their opinions and their I'm innocent over the years, lots of them.
And you kind of know when they're most of them are our lives. Yes, sure. This one is interesting. I love that you're out there.
There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace. That's this guy right here, baby. Yeah, every once in a while, I take a walk outside to, you know, take my dog for a walk. I got a thing.
Keep more of them, folks. Come and soon to your local airport. Sure. Yeah.
You know, another little interesting thing happened to me yesterday when I was on that trip. You know, occasionally people as, you know, will come and say hello. Oh, yes. And there was a group of people.
I think there were FBI actually from who stopped and we had a picture taking, but a mother daughter came to speak to me and they were lovely, lovely people. And they were traveling to Sacramento to see state legislators to ask for their support for a campaign to fund a program to help poor children get hearing aids, poor children who are unable to afford, you know, their just goes through life without being able to hear. Well, I think, well, that's nice. It's a nice thing to do.
And they said hello on the way up and then on the way back from Sacramento. Well, who should I see on the airplane? But then I thought, well, that's an interesting little coincidence. The life we live on the road, as you know, Josh, going to be very interesting and produce meetings that you never expect to happen.
I agree. It's where you meet the audience face-to-face and and and my contact with the audience almost I would say 100% positive. It's great. I always feel better after talking with you.
Oh, yeah. Watch or listen. Yeah. And when I meet them, they all ask me the same thing.
And what they ask me is what's Keith really like. And you tell them he is a principal man who once in a while goes outside his office and occasionally even gets on an airplane, but not very often. That's pretty much it. Yeah.
Yeah. Right. So I'd like to speak to you, Mr. McEwits, as always.
Thank you. Great to see you. And we'll be back with Rachel White soon. Rachel White, a far more interesting person to talk to after this.
She produced the story and she did a great job. Hey, guys. Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I sit down with one of the biggest bands in the world, Mumford and Sons, as we get the boys together to talk about their new number one album, Prize Fighter, and the evolution of that irresistible foot stomping sound.
You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts. Hi, everybody. I'm back with a day blind producer, Rachel White, who worked on this episode and we're going to answer some of your questions from social media, which came after the program aired. Thank you for having me.
Josh is in some far off place. I'm assuming pretending to work. Maybe he's on to the next. That's the charitable way of looking at it.
I'm sure it's true, actually. So let's ask the questions. Eric Purser on Twitter asks Eric T. Purser.
Why didn't her friends tell the police about the poet to begin with? Well, Rachel. It's a good question. I think that by the point where Sue was murdered, it's 2010, and her friends believed that Jorge Landeros, the poet, had moved to Mexico back in 2008.
So from their perspective, the relationship was long over, and they learned that they were still in pretty frequent contact after she passed away. Right. I guess Jackie, 16, 1941, 232, all those numbers, responded actually to the picture of the Dateline team in Mexico. Gonna put it on the screen for anybody watching the video version of the podcast.
It's a lovely picture, by the way. And Rachel, you are in it from the, but you're the second from the right in the picture. That's me in the blue scarf. There you are.
It's great. It's been a fun trip. And the viewer asked, was this in Juarez? So that was in Mexico City.
That's where we were on that day, shooting some b-roll, as we call it, of, you know, Mexico Scenic's. And that's in a very famous park in Mexico City. It's beautiful. May I just offer a little compliment to Mexico City?
I think it's, I got it's a wonderful city. The architecture, the sort of feel of the place that grandeur, Mexico City is under really underrated, I think, by a lot of Americans. Lisa Scott on Facebook says, this is the second high profile murder by yoga instructors. I thought yoga was supposed to relax you and give you inner peace.
The other yoga instructor was the woman whose name was Caitlyn, who killed Mo Wilson. I remember that one very well because that was my story. The cyclist, of course, is really just a comment. Lisa says I'll stick to aqua aerobics.
Thank you. But you know, there's no reason why somebody in aqua aerobics couldn't feel a little jiggy as well. You know, maybe you heard this on your story too with the yoga instructor, but a few people made comments to us like, you know, you're in a place that is supposed to be zen and you're supposed to be mindful and relaxed. And there was something about the yoga instructor that you just kind of inherently trust.
They seem very grounded, very centered. So we did get that comment a few times. So I'm curious about something. I wonder if yoga instructors are sometimes like, you know, other priest-like occupations, which tend to attract people who have ulterior motives.
In other words, somebody becomes a zen, loving, special kind of person yoga instructor, precisely because he is kind of on the hunt. Do you think that applies here? It could be. I mean, you know, we were told by people in this story that Jorge Landaros said that, you know, he studied yoga in India and it made him want to divest himself of his earthly possessions and live in a cave.
Like that was his mindset upon, you know, going there. And, you know, from Sue's friends perspective, they felt like, sure, he was kind of giving up his earthly possessions, his worldly possessions. But then she was kind of supplementing his lack of income, right? So he removed that burden from himself, but essentially found someone else to put it on.
Yeah. What a handy dandy way to live that sort of lifestyle, right? Mm-hmm. Milly Yantas on Facebook asks this question.
Did he receive the life insurance payout? He did not. His attorneys tell us that he didn't even attempt to collect the life insurance payout. At Peace Messenger 1 on Twitter says, Sue must have been amazing because there is nothing in this wide world that can make me love accounting.
I think I probably have to agree with you, Peace Messenger 1. I agree. I certainly agree. I mean, we heard time and time again, people telling us how she made studying and counting fun.
And as you learn watching our story, she, you know, took an accounting job for the Ringling Brothers Circus. And her brother told us a story about how she would, you know, explain, you know, certain things about working at the circus and how she had to, you know, figure out the depreciation of elephants, for example. So she definitely tried to make it interesting. And I think she took those things that she learned at the Ringling Brothers into the classroom.
So I could see how that would be a fun way to learn counting. And finally, Raven Red, I should say, Raven Red on Facebook says, I would have enjoyed having Sue as a friend, which is probably an appropriate way to begin this ending. I think that a lot of people that we talked to certainly felt that way. I mean, part of producing a show at Dateline is gathering photos from family and friends.
And, you know, sometimes you get a lot, sometimes you don't get very many, just depending on a million different reasons. In this case, we got hundreds of photos of Sue, and they were colorful outfits and, you know, exotic trips and huge groups of friends that she was hosting, always a huge smile on her face. She just really seemed like a lovely person, somebody that you would want to hang out with and be around for sure. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for answering these questions for us.
And clearly you were deeply involved in getting that story on television. Good job. It was good. Thank you very much.
Before we go, I have a question for you, Keith, from one of our viewers. And this is coming from a Dateline viewer named Riley in Montana, and we're going to play the audio of the question now. All right. Hi, Dateline team.
My name is Riley, and I'm calling in from Montana. I just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of the show and the podcast. Of course, Keith Morrison specifically, I'd probably listen to him reading the phone book. My question is for Keith in his promo for the show, Something About Carrie.
He says the word macabre, and he says it like macabre. And I was just wondering, have I been pronouncing this word wrong my entire life, or is this just a Keith Morrison spin on the word. Either way, I'd love to hear the debate on Talking Dateline and want to thank you all for a great show. Well, thank you for that.
And yeah, I probably just say all words rather foolishly or differently. Maybe blame my Canadian heritage, but cobra, putting the at the end is something I grew up with. So my mother was always a stickler about pronouncing all syllables of words that needed to be pronounced only. I would frequently get them wrong and still do.
Thank you, Rachel. And we'll see you on the next story, maybe with any luck. Yes, see you later, Keith. Thanks.
Thanks. That's it for talking Dateline this week. And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or a Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at 2-1-2-4-1-3-5-2-5-2.
For a chance to be featured. And thank you for listening. Friday night on an all-new Dateline. Can't be cursed, you can't be gone.
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