Talking Interest Rates with Ricardo Caballero

For all my interviews and more, subscribe on YouTube.I’m spending a lot of time thinking about high interest rates, both for obvious reasons and because I’m reconsidering some of my own long-held views. So I thought I’d have a long talk with someone who has really studied these issues and now, I believe, may have been more right than I was. This may be even wonkier than usual, but trust me, it’s important.. . .TRANSCRIPT: Paul Krugman in Conversation with Ricardo Caballero(recorded 8/25/26)Paul Krugman: I’m talking today with a very, very serious economist, Ricardo Caballero, who is one of the most important macroeconomic thinkers of modern times. I was going to say of my generation, but actually, I’m an older generation—but of the currently, still vital creative generation. We’ve had discussions about a lot of events over the past 25 years that have involved some disputes that I hope we can get into in a way that people understand. And recent events, including the rise in long-term interest rates, have really brought all of those issues to the fore. So I thought I’d talk with Ricardo, who is the Ford International Professor of Economics at MIT, a position I once held. But anyway, hi.Ricardo Caballero: Hi, Paul. So wonderful to see you again. We still miss you at MIT.Krugman: Well, I miss the days when actually getting at the truth was what mattered, as opposed to dealing with all of the obvious lies. But anyway, I guess there are different stages in one’s life. But so, I will want to get into recent events. But one thing that really struck me is that there’s this long-running discussion basically around interest rates and international movements of capital where there are kind of, as I see it, two rival ways of thinking about it. It could be some of both—but one was about returns to capital and investment opportunities, and one was about people looking for safety and security in assets. And for the most part, I was on one side of that and you were on the other. And I’m starting to think that you were probably right. So, first off, how would you portray this discussion? And maybe we can go back and forth.Caballero: I don’t know whether they’re really different views because, you know, my view at least was always, when I say “a shortage of a store-of-value,” if you will, investment opportunities create those store-of-value opportunities and so on. So I never saw it as very contradictory. I thought there was an imbalance: lots of needs for savings, in particular in a very specific kind of saving—safe saving. And the productive structure wasn’t able to generate enough assets, especially safe assets. And that’s, I think, what led to the sort of “shortage of safe assets” type of literature, and that naturally depresses safe interest rates. If you look at the return on capital, actually, it was fairly stable. It was all absorbed by the opportunity risk premium, if you will. And so you can see returns both on safe and risky capital sort of declining in tandem since 2000, or earlier than that. And then somewhere around 2000, you can see that the safe interest rate keeps coming down, while the return to capital is sort of paralyzed. And what starts widening is the equity risk premium.Krugman: So let me just break in here. A kind of crude, simplistic view—probably my view at a certain point—was that there’s capital and then there are returns on capital. And when we start to see interest rates get really low circa 2000, that’s telling you that returns to capital are going down. And if we see a lot of money coming to the United States, it’s because, well, America had faster population growth than other rich countries, and we were leading the technology revolution. But you’re saying there’s a really big difference between buying stock—corporate investment—and buying U.S. government debt, which is safe. And that the United States was sort of better than the rest of the world at supplying these safe assets.Caballero: Absolutely.Krugman: And just going way back—the financial crisis, which seems to me like yesterday, but was in fact almost 20 years ago—involved all of these exotic financial instruments, the asset-backed mortgage-backed securities, which you interpreted as a response, to a large extent; not just fraudulent, but a response to a real demand. Right?Caballero: Absolutely. I thought there was a shortage of ultra-safe assets. So financial engineering got to work and they created sort of “synthetic safe assets.” Now, they were safe assets from the point of view of idiosyncratic shocks, but they weren’t from the point of view of systemic shocks. And to me, that was quite important in generating the financial crisis.Krugman: Yeah. And so idiosyncratic shocks are like, well, okay: a particular housing development turns out to be a bust, but a collapse of the entire housing bubble is... And so fancy math was used to create assets that were supposedly safe because you were pooling all this stuff. And so, in your view, it wasn’t just that you had evil, fraudulent financial types—though that too—but that they were responding. There basically just weren’t enough Treasury bills and stuff like that out there.Caballero: I mean, they realized there was a spread to be earned by creating these assets, and then there were regulatory failures that allowed them to hold them on their own balance sheets. And I think that’s when the really toxic mixture was developed, because you had these very low-capital-charge assets which weren’t really safe. But you’re right, it was this spread that sort of created the opportunity and then the regulatory arbitrage, if you will, that brought them into the balance sheets.Krugman: Okay. I’m going to be self-indulgent and tell you a quick story. Robin and I bought our New York apartment in early 2009, which turns out to have been perfect timing, although that was purely an accident. We had come into a slug of money courtesy of the Swedes. But as we were looking at places and I was looking at the bookshelves of people who were selling their apartments, and a whole lot of them had books on the Gaussian copula and stuff like that, which, as you know, was a technique that was used to justify the claim that these synthetic assets were safe. And so we were clearly getting a preview: there were a lot of apartments on sale from Wall Street quants who’d been fired because everything was about to fall apart.And so, in some sense, the setting for the financial crisis was that people wanted safe assets, and excessively clever guys on Wall Street invented seemingly safe assets. But then everything went to hell, and we had the financial crisis. And then we had this long period of really, really low interest rates. And your story would be basically, as I understood it, that all of these fake safe assets had been revealed as fake, and now there was a sort of piling into Treasury bills, piling into actually safe assets.Caballero: Indeed, and also partly the supply of sovereign safe assets—Italian bonds and the like—those also went away. And so we had a massive shortage.Krugman: Okay. Now, there was an alternative story. And believe it or not, listeners, we are going to get to where we are now as a result. But there was an alternative story that I guess Larry Summers came out with at first, but I actually had been toying with the same thing, which was that what was actually happening was a real lack of investment opportunities. This was the “secular stagnation” view.Caballero: You know, we were both at that conference. It was IMF, I think, and you may not remember, but that’s when Larry sort of came up with this theory. And you may not remember, but I stood up and I said, “Look, I buy a part of that story. But what you’re missing is that the return on capital hasn’t declined nearly as much as the safe interest rate.” And that’s what I was describing before—the equity risk premium increased enormously. But the return to capital, regardless of whether you measure it with national accounts or return on financial investment, did not decline nearly as much.Krugman: That’s right. So, national accounts being corporate profits divided by the value of corporate assets. And there really wasn’t a big decline in the profit rate.Caballero: Of course, in the recession itself, it did. But I’m saying afterwards it recovered.Krugman: Yeah. By like 2015, the recession is over and basically the interest rate on federal debt is lower than the rate of inflation. And so it’s basically free money for governments to borrow. One interpretation of that is, well, population growth has slowed and technology is maybe not as exciting as we thought it was going to be, and so there weren’t these opportunities. And you were saying that the numbers never supported that.Caballero: I don’t think so. I mean, elements of these stories are obviously correct, but I mean, there’s like 400 or 500 basis points that really came from widening in the equity risk premium.Krugman: By the way, the equity risk premium is when stocks historically pay a higher rate of return than bonds—certainly more than government bonds. And it’s always been a little bit of a puzzle why it’s so large.Caballero: Not for long, though.Krugman: Yeah.Caballero: Not so much now.Krugman: But it was more that people trusted the U.S. government and didn’t quite exactly trust corporate investments. And so that’s why the government was able to borrow so cheaply.Caballero: I think so. And also the demographic cycle helped on that dimension because, you know, older people tend to demand safer assets. So that’s also changing that composition.Krugman: Yeah. I wasn’t even thinking about that. So I have to say, I think we were kind of, in some ways, living in a fool’s paradise where governments can borrow essentially for free—certainly the U.S. government could borrow essentially for free.The case that a lot of us used to justify secular stagnation—and for some reason, the words here are all completely meaningless to a normal human being—but to justify this idea that we just had low returns, a lot of us talked about Japan. Have you spent time on the Japanese story?Caballero: I wrote a paper on Zombie Lending.Krugman: Oh, yes you did. Why don’t you tell us about that? Because that’s also an interesting thing that was a consequence.Caballero: That was a consequence. I mean, essentially, in Argentina, if you have a financial crisis, you just blow up. But in Japan, they had the resources to essentially keep banks alive and the like. And so that led to a process of evergreening loans. And we show that that reduced productivity growth. So it did have a real impact eventually.But there were other things at play in Japan as well. They had a massive financial crisis which certainly took away their mojo. It took many years, and then they responded. The fiscal policy sort of reacted too soon to the incipient recovery. So they fumbled on multiple occasions.Krugman: Yeah. And the story that we used was that, you know, the collapse of fertility happened there first. So there was a shortage of Japanese, which should have reduced returns on investment and maybe led to low interest rates, but maybe that wasn’t even the story for Japan.Caballero: I mean, I think it is part of the story, definitely. I mean, they certainly experienced a very acute demographic cycle. They were not very inclined to allow massive migration. So they had all the ingredients; there is no doubt. But on top of that, you had the financial crisis and this supporting of sort of zombie loans. And so they did terrible things to the productivity environment.Krugman: Given all of that, you might think that Japan would have fallen way behind on productivity. And they have lower productivity than we do, but not...Caballero: Well, labor, because they have lots of capital.Krugman: True. Okay. So this is a vision of kind of the history of the past 25 years as a search for perceived safety, investments where you can’t go wrong, and an abortive attempt to cater to that demand by providing a lot of clever things that looked safe, but weren’t really. And then a collapse of that. And then you enter this long period, because the financial crisis is 2008 and interest rates are still very low, at least as of just three years ago. And now all of a sudden, or so it seems, that’s gone away. So, what do you think happened? We kind of had a glut of safe assets instead of a shortage. What do you think happened there?Caballero: Well, I think it’s a combination of things. I think that first, there’s the COVID shock for sure, that affected the supply of assets all around the world. So now we have a lot more competition than we used to have as well. That’s one aspect. Second, it brought sort of the inflation monster into play. And that also complicated the life of bonds. And then markets became very bullish. So the equity risk premium we’re talking about essentially went away.So, to me, a lot of the movement that we have seen is really the equity risk premium up and down. The question is whether it’s structural or temporary. We also saw a compression of the equity risk premiums right before the dot-com bubble. And so the burst of the bubble also led to lower interest rates. So, in struggling with this, the question becomes: How much of this is structural versus how much of this is just some temporary phenomenon or not? So that’s one issue. That’s sort of the financial issue.And then the second one, which is not unrelated to this issue of the compression in the equity risk premium, is the AI boom. I mean, this is a massive investment and wealth boom, which is very important. So the wealth boom has boosted aggregate demand and that has increased equilibrium interest rates. We talk about the K-shaped economy; I call it financial Dutch disease. We have this enormous amount of wealth creation and therefore the interest rates have to be high. And then anything that is affected by high interest rates is struggling.Krugman: By the way, people won’t know this, but Dutch disease is a very long ago story, but it stuck. This was when the Netherlands discovered natural gas, and suddenly they were selling lots of natural gas, which made the—I guess they still had the guilder then. They still had their own currency. So this made the guilder strong, which actually was kind of devastating for Dutch manufacturing because they weren’t competitive anymore. And so this is a case where good news is actually bad news for large parts of the economy. And actually, I happen to know, the Dutch stopped pumping out the gas a few years back because the land, which was already below sea level, is subsiding further. But we still use that term.So you’re saying when people think the second coming of wealth has arrived because of a new technology, they pile into that, and then they’re not so interested in parking their money in safe government bonds.Caballero: Indeed, yeah. I mean, even without the secondary effect, you still get a boost in aggregate demand that comes from the wealth. Before the productivity of the AI boom arrives, you get the demand. You don’t get the productivity. That requires higher interest rates.Krugman: That’s right. That was very much the opposite, by the way, of what Kevin Warsh has been trying to argue. He’s been saying, “Well, because of AI, interest rates can come down because it’s anti-inflationary.” But the problem is, if the anti-inflationary stuff arrives, that may yet be some years down the pike. And meanwhile all the spending and the wealth that’s driving the stock market valuation... In a way, you’re saying that a lot of what’s happening should be good news, right? We have this technology, which is pretty impressive.Caballero: Yeah, it’s extremely impressive. Yeah, I wrote a little paper. It’s called Speculative Growth and the AI “Bubble.” I’m very optimistic about this technology. Now, whether I’m optimistic about the current valuations, that’s another story. But I’m optimistic about the technology. And I think there’s a good future ahead. But the good future, to get there at a reasonable speed, I think we do need a little bit of bubbly markets. And that’s the nature of the story. But it’s a fragile story because, you know, bubbles are fragile.Krugman: Yeah. And by the way, I don’t know if you saw this, but Stan Druckenmiller, sort of George Soros’s right-hand man and also Scott Bessent’s mentor, published an opinion piece in the Financial Times about how Bessent is all wrong to believe he can bring down long-term interest rates with his little bits of financial engineering, which was an interesting piece and interesting given the source and all that, but it appears, based upon the detectors, to have been entirely written by AI.Caballero: I see!Krugman: It seems Druckenmiller knew what he wanted to say, but couldn’t be bothered to actually write it. So he actually told Claude to write it.Caballero: I’m sure he wanted to blame somebody if it didn’t work well.Krugman: Now, it’s good news, we think. There’s this technology, which is amazing. It really is. I have to say, I’m using it for pretty nerdy stuff like, “Here’s this published table, but it’s a PDF. Can you please convert it into an Excel spreadsheet for me?” You know, that kind of thing. But it’s amazing how much time that saves.But it’s actually having this effect, where suddenly interest rates on federal borrowing are way up. Again, this is going to be a lot of nerdy questions because I’m really trying to scope this out, and I can’t think of a better person to talk to about it. It’s also true that a lot of interest rates beyond that and government debt are also up. Right? So does that make sense? If it’s a search for safety, should we be seeing home mortgage rates also going up by the same or similar amounts? Maybe they are.Caballero: They are in the sense that spreads are being compressed at the moment. So that’s consistent with the fact that there isn’t a lot of concern with risk. And so all the spreads are coming down. That sometimes has to do with “reach for yield” type phenomena. It’s pretty standard. The benchmark rate, which is the Treasury rate, tends to move more than the other ones outside of a financial crisis. But the spreads are being compressed. And mortgage rates are, in fact, rising—not one-to-one, but they are rising.Krugman: Okay. But it’s not one-to-one.Caballero: No. I haven’t checked, but I suspect mortgage rates are not rising one-to-one. But corporate spreads are being compressed.Krugman: Yeah, and that’s actually kind of how you are measuring. Explain to me, because I didn’t quite get it: You have quite a new paper on basically the elimination of the safety premium on U.S. government debt. How did you go about measuring that?Caballero: It’s a combination of things. I mean, the concept I have in the paper is one of the marginal costs of debt issuance. And that has two components. One is the spread, which we’ll discuss—the spread relative to a safe interest rate; think of it as the front-end monetary policy rate. And another one is the cost of rolling over the old debt at the new higher premium.So, my estimate is that these costs have increased by about 110 basis points, of which 50 basis points are the result of an increase in the premium—the spread—and 60 basis points is a result of these rollover costs. And the rollover costs come from the fact that now we have so much more debt that every time you get a little bit more of a spread, eventually when you end up rolling over all the old debt, that is going to cost you a lot more from the point of view of the fiscal deficit.Now, the most commonly understood term is the spread, the premium component. And that has two components. One is the rollover premium, if you will. That one I measured by the Treasury basis trade, essentially. You can probably explain it better than I can.Krugman: Yeah, I’m not sure I can do that either. But it’s essentially from how much more a Treasury bond pays over a swap that doesn’t use the same amount of balance sheet. And we call that the convenience yield, that Treasury bonds would actually sell at a higher price than the implicit price in a swap of corresponding maturity. And the swap is a swap on corporate debt, right?Caballero: No, no, no. It’s on safe interest rates. Just think of a futures contract. It’s the fixed rate of a future, of a swap. So think of a futures contract.Krugman: Okay. But essentially, people were willing to accept a lower interest rate if they were just buying U.S. government debt, rather than doing something more complicated.Caballero: Yeah, actually it’s not necessarily more complicated. But it happens that the Treasury bonds have a lot of other advantages. You could use them for so many things: collateral and so on. And that was worth a lot. And that’s an interesting angle, actually. It was worth a lot also because the marginal holder was a very different holder from the current one—central banks and so on. For a central bank, like the Bank of Japan, it’s not very useful to have duration through swaps and the like. They like to hold the Treasury bonds.Now it’s a bit different. The marginal holder may not be the Bank of Japan. It may be some levered agent in the economy, and for that agent, balance sheet and so on is very important. So if you look across all the maturities, that spread was on the order of -18 basis points before COVID, if you will. And now it’s around, I don’t know, zero.And the other one is the duration component. And if you look across all the maturities, essentially the U.S. didn’t pay much for duration exposure and now it’s paying like 40 basis points for that. So that’s the way you get to 60 basis points.Krugman: So yeah, people are demanding a higher interest rate basically to tie their stock up in long-term stability.Caballero: Yeah, I mean, they’re demanding a higher premium because the safe interest rate goes up for the kind of things we were talking about before—wealth and the like. And the question is, what about on top of that?Krugman: Okay. And so, I should have these numbers in my head, but a few years back, the U.S. Treasury could issue 30-year bonds—so basically lock in financing for the next 30 years—for several hundred basis points, several interest percentage points lower. And it’s now 5-point-something, which is just way, way higher than before. It basically means the federal government was paying hardly more, if anything more, than the inflation rate, and in fact less, and then if you subtract growth in the economy, basically no burden of debt.Caballero: Yeah. I mean, in real terms, we went from zero or negative for the 30-year bond to plus 2% or 2.5%. So it’s quite significant. And what I’m saying is that perhaps maybe one-third of that is a result of the fact that there is a little bit of a glut of all these assets.Krugman: And just going back, what happened was that the United States and other countries that also issue stuff that is perceived as safe just sold a lot of bonds, and a lot of that was because of COVID, right?Caballero: Absolutely. That was a big thing. And nowadays corporates are issuing a lot of bonds as well because we’re in the middle of this investment boom. And so, I think corporates in the U.S. are going to issue on the order of $2 trillion this year. That’s an enormous amount of competition.Krugman: Yeah. And probably people think of Microsoft bonds as being very nearly as safe as U.S. government debt.Caballero: For a while, Apple bonds sold at a higher price than Treasury bonds. I think it was a very brief moment, but I think it did happen.Krugman: I do see where sometimes people say, “I’m going to get you something that’s safer than U.S. government debt.” And I always wonder, what do you think anything is going to be worth if the U.S. government goes bankrupt? Who’s going to enforce the contracts?Caballero: I assume they are talking about price risk more than the default risk. And by the way, I wrote this paper on a lot of debt, if you will, and what that does to aggregate demand. But I’m not predicting any sort of crisis; I don’t see that. I think there’s nothing that can substitute for U.S. Treasury bonds. I always say, you know, there isn’t enough French real estate you can move to if you want to get out of the U.S. So the paper I wrote says precisely, “No, no, no. Assume that this will remain safe.” I don’t think that this is the issue. The issue is that it becomes more costly to issue this safe debt and that begins to become a big drag on aggregate demand.Krugman: In some ways you answered the question already. But I’ve been wondering, how much of what we’re seeing is just that there’s a lot of debt out there and you basically have to reward people more to get them to absorb it, and how much of it is an actual loss of faith in the safety of the stuff?I’m seeing back and forth on this, by the way. I’m reading Robin Brooks, and he’s talking about the debasement trade and people worried about the security of U.S. debt. And I think you are not worried. But the question of whether you are worried and whether somebody out there might be worried are not the same question.Caballero: Of course.Krugman: Do you see any signs that people are, in fact, losing faith in the safety of U.S. debt as opposed to just that they don’t really want all that much of it?Caballero: I think inflation risk is something that is a bigger concern. That’s a debasement risk more than, I think, a default—I would assume. I mean, I don’t know what’s on some people’s minds. But I think there is a much bigger concern out there about inflation, and particularly with the current Fed and, you know, interaction there is not very good. But I suspect it’s that kind of thing.Having said this, you are seeing a little bit of a change. You remember we talked about corporate bond spreads having shrunk. But not in the hyperscalers. Now, you have seen a little bit of concern there that didn’t exist at all a few months back.Krugman: Yeah, I have to say, if you go back just a few years and you looked at the big established tech quasi-monopolies, they had this enormous cash flow and these huge business technological moats around their quasi-monopoly positions. And how could they ever be in financial problems? And the answer is, well, if they’re going to spend $3 trillion on a technology that, however great it is, may or may not actually be profitable for the people who spend on it... That could do it. So, yeah.It’s at least arguable—I mean, you don’t have to get particularly political to say that the U.S. government doesn’t sound the way it used to sound. Maybe you can help me here. I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around what a loss of confidence in U.S. debt would mean. How would that even play out? When people say, “Oh, people are going to dump their U.S. bonds,” I always ask, “And buy what?” And you’re in that same camp?Caballero: Mostly, yeah. I mean, again, local is different. With a small scare, you can see lost revenue. There was an episode when inflation was a little higher than now and people perceived, for the reasons you just described, equity in this hyperscale assets hypothesis. And I think part of the reason the equity risk premium was so low—and now it’s been increasing a little—it was exactly that. Treasuries were perceived relative to the main shocks that we were experiencing—inflation, if you like—Treasuries were perceived as riskier than some AI-related equities. So you could see for local shocks and so on, depending on the nature of the shock, something going into equities and the like. But otherwise I just think there is nothing that can be done in size, in very significant size.But we can get a spike. Remember in March of 2020, I think it was, there was a moment in which foreign central banks wanted to sell Treasuries and the Treasury swap spread got unwound because of margin calls, and we did see big spikes in treasuries. And I think the swap lines that were created by the U.S., by the Fed and the like, were mechanisms to try to stabilize episodic things. But I call them episodic. I just don’t see anything that can hang in there for a long time without creating a matching mess.Krugman: Yeah. One of the marks of really, really effective financial policy is that nobody even notices that you did it.Caballero: Exactly. Absolutely. That was very well managed.Krugman: March 2020, for a couple of days, was absolutely terrifying. But they responded effectively. Although, actually, even then, what were people buying?Caballero: Cash.Krugman: Ah yes, they were piling into cash. And of course, the thing about that is we can print cash.Caballero: True, eventually. But first you have to go through a spike and then it happens.Krugman: Yeah.Caballero: But effectively that’s what they did. When you create a swap line, it’s just like printing cash.Krugman: Yeah, that’s right. I’d say I probably get about 15 emails a morning saying, “Here’s how the dollar is going to collapse. It’s the great American financial crisis.” And it usually starts with how irresponsible U.S. policymakers are. All of which is true. But how does this happen? You know, give me the mechanics of the crisis. And I’ve never been able to get an answer on that.Caballero: Yeah, I don’t see it either, but I do see a drift. I do see a drift. People can be very creative. You give them time. If you tell me now I have to relocate $40 trillion of debt somewhere else, there’s nothing I can do. But, I mean, give them enough time. People start finding certain things that they use, to find sort of safe and appealing, or more appealing [places to put their money]. So I think drift can do a lot more damage than events.Krugman: Yeah. I mean, I’ve been on a kind of related subject: the international role of the dollar in the global payments system. And it’s really, really hard to see anything replacing the dollar, but workarounds that people manage to do—you know, we’re witnessing that in the Persian Gulf as we speak. People can find their way around it.Financially, what keeps you up at night? I mean, we’ve both lived through and were very attentive during two inconceivable financial crises. Although the one in 2020 got solved very quickly. But I remember 2008. I actually had a relative who was working at the New York Fed and that weekend, the 13th, 14th of September, he wasn’t answering his phone and we said something must be up. And it sure as hell was.Caballero: That was a long weekend there.Krugman: Yeah, it was. He had bags under his eyes big enough to pack your luggage in. But anyway, are there scenarios out there that you worry about now?Caballero: More than a crisis, I worry about the fragility of the current boom. Precisely for the reasons we have been discussing. I think that high valuations are a needed ingredient in the development of this wonderful technology nowadays. But at the same time, we’re quite fragile to that. I mean, the good thing is that we have a lot of space to cut interest rates very, very rapidly if something goes wrong. But I think things are fragile.I’m exaggerating here but, you know, Venezuela did great under Chavez for a long time because the price of oil was rising a lot. And I feel that a lot of what is happening that is good has to do with AI covering up a lot of stuff. So I’m a little afraid about something that depends on high valuations that could come down very abruptly, and then we don’t do that great.Krugman: Yeah, I mean, you’re younger than me, but old enough to remember the late ‘90s. And I remember how everything seemed wonderful. Although that was a bubble during which people were happy. We’re now managing to have something different: It may be a bubble, but somehow everybody hates it.Caballero: A lot of people are very happy with the current bubble.Krugman: That’s true.Caballero: But it is also true that there’s a negative side as well. Now, having said that—this may be very optimistic, but I think that the current story is—there’s more alignment between the high valuations and the people that are really involved in generating this revolution. I think the fragility comes from different things. The Chinese may come out with some technologies that wipe out a big part of the competitive advantage we have and things of that kind. Sort of creative destruction-type things can be quite bad for financial wealth temporarily.Krugman: So, last question: What do you think of Scott Bessent’s attempt to push those top rates down?Caballero: I suspect they got very nervous, and I think that they wanted to cut a tail. I think he’s smart enough to know that he cannot change fundamentals, but I think precisely because of the fragility—I mean, I think they’re very worried that financial conditions can tighten very abruptly with a spike of that long end and then crash precisely the equity market and the like. And I think to me, this was a sort of “put”-type policy for financial conditions, which is quite important, obviously, for all the developments, political and economic.Krugman: Interesting times. This discussion will be posted four days after we’re having it, and given the way things are, it may be totally out of date by then. But I’m actually feeling somewhat more relaxed after this discussion, because I was a little bit worried that you were going to tell us that there are no safe assets anymore and the world is doomed.Caballero: Currently I don’t believe that. We shall see whether that’s naivete or wisdom.Krugman: Well, thanks so much for talking with me.Caballero: It was a pleasure. 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