Talking with Lisa Graves

Lisa Graves is a legal activist and the author of a remarkable and terrifying book, Without Precedent, that documents the assault on democracy via the story of John Roberts. I spoke with her about how America has come to its current state, and what the future may hold: . . . TRANSCRIPT: Paul Krugman in Conversation with Lisa Graves (recorded 4/9/26) Paul Krugman: I’m speaking today with Lisa Graves, author of an incredibly revelatory and deeply disturbing book called Without Precedent, about the Roberts Court and what it has done to America. And...hi, Lisa. Welcome on. Lisa Graves: Paul, thank you so much for having me on. It’s an honor to be here with you. And thank you for your kind words about my book. Krugman: I guess I was first sort of seriously alerted to what was happening at the Supreme Court in 2000, with the stolen election and all that. But I have to say, I don’t think I fully appreciated what Citizens United would do. And so why don’t you give us a little background on what has happened, the court and its role and what’s been happening to America? Graves: Well, I really appreciate your starting with Bush v. Gore, because that in some ways is the beginning of this period. It’s a precursor in a way to what we’ve been experiencing. And that was when the US Supreme Court, in a sharply partisan decision — although not all the Republicans voted to stop the recount — five Republicans voted to stop the recount in 2000, in Florida. And the effect of that was to give George W. Bush the presidency and with it, not just the power to, in essence, make war with the consent of Congress, but also the power to remake the courts, the Supreme Court in particular. And by the way, as part of my research for the book, I looked into what was happening at that time, and it turned out that Clarence Thomas’s wife Ginni Thomas was working for the Heritage Foundation on the predecessor to Project 2025 — basically Project 2000. And she was screening people for positions in the potential George W. Bush administration. And Clarence Thomas didn’t recuse himself from that case. By the way, that five-four decision — it would have been four-four. The count would have been allowed to proceed. And the count that actually occurred with news organizations after the fact, after Bush was sworn in, showed that Gore would have won Florida and would have become the president of the United States. By the way, after Thomas voted to effectively make George W. Bush the president, Ginni Thomas was given a promotion as the liaison from the Heritage Foundation to the White House, and she became the highest paid non-board member of the Heritage Foundation. And so she was rewarded very well for her work and, basically, for the consequence of her husband’s decision to vote to stop that recount. So that was really a moment where I think a lot of people didn’t understand what was happening. And because that decision happened so quickly, there were no motions for Thomas to recuse himself. It just was a very rapid, very political, partisan decision by the court. And it is really a precursor to what’s happened next, which is that George W. Bush was reelected as an incumbent, or elected anew in 2004. And there were two vacancies that came up immediately. It was for O’Connor’s seat and Rehnquist’s seat. And John Roberts got the role of chief justice, and Sam Alito got the role of associate justice. And then to fast forward to your question about Citizens United, again, this is a 5-to-4 decision issued by the Roberts Court, where Clarence Thomas sat on that case — the fifth vote, in essence, on that case — even though a billionaire named Harlan Crowe had staked his wife Ginni Thomas with $500,000 to launch a group to take advantage of the decision to come in Citizens United, to allow these so-called C4 groups under the IRS code to spend unlimited money to influence elections. And Clarence Thomas did not recuse himself from that case, and even had the audacity to write a concurring opinion saying that disclosure of money being spent by these groups — who the sources are — would chill speech, meaning money, like the money to his wife, which he did not disclose. And so that decision unleashed a tsunami of cash into our elections, where candidates are routinely outspent by the outside groups. And this has given a disproportionate, and extraordinarily disproportionate, power to billionaires in our society, in America, to secretly influence elections in order to get people into positions of power to advance their interests, like the huge tax breaks that Donald Trump signed into law at the behest of Charles Koch and his groups in the first term of President Trump. And again, similarly, in this second term of Donald Trump, the extension of those deeply unfair and destructive tax cuts for the richest few. Krugman: You kind of described what Citizens United is, but let’s talk more about that. Citizens United is the birth of super PACs, right? Graves: Yes. Krugman: And it’s basically saying that outside players — but it ends up being largely billionaires — can put lots of money with some basically tissue-thin restrictions on what they can do, but can basically put in unlimited amounts of money to influence political campaigns. Graves: That’s right. And so Citizens United was a decision that basically asserted that under the First Amendment, money is speech, and that outside groups that were not coordinating with the candidate — so-called independent expenditures — they could spend unlimited money, and they were not subject to the rules that the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, BiCRA, otherwise known as McCain-Feingold, sought to put in place to deal with this sort of what they were calling soft money — money that was outside the campaigns that was not required to be disclosed. So Citizens United and its progeny — a case called Speech Now vs. FEC — that’s what spawned these super PACs, where you have enormous money going into PACs, political action committees. That money can be million-dollar, even $10 million checks. For the super PACs that are operating in a particular way, they have to disclose their donors. But for the C-4 groups, which are these other nonprofits, they don’t have to disclose their donors. And so what it’s created is a situation in which, on the one hand, a billionaire can now give millions to a super PAC in a way that they could not give directly to the candidate. They couldn’t just write a check to the presidential candidate or congressional candidate. They can do it now in an unlimited amount through the super PACs. And then separately, they can give tens of millions of dollars — unlimited money — secretly to a C-4 group that runs so-called issue ads. Those are the ads that say vote for or against this person, or call them because you oppose their policy. But it’s really obviously about influencing the election, and that’s the dark money that’s being spent in our elections. Krugman: The Times found that 300 billionaires represented 19% of all campaign financing in the 2024 cycle. But I’m not sure how they know. Are the C-4s even in there? It may be more than that, right? Graves: It’s certainly more than that. And only under certain circumstances can you actually see some of the funding of a C-4, based on how it’s related — who’s funding it, if who’s funding it is known. So for example, if a foundation gives to a C-4, if it has the capacity through a trust or a foundation to give to a C-4, that sort of giving is required to be disclosed. But if an individual, a billionaire like Charles Koch, writes a check to the C-4, that is not disclosed. It’s only if it comes through a nonprofit entity that you can see just a glimpse of the sources of that funding. So whenever I talk to reporters who are doing those calculations about how much money is being spent by billionaires, I always tell them that their counts are going to be extraordinarily under the actual reality, because we… Get full access to Paul Krugman at paulkrugman.substack.com/subscribe