Terrorism Charges, Facial Recognition & Civil Liberties: A Law Enforcement Expert Weighs In | with Professor Ashley Waters-Gundersen

What separates murder from terrorism? When does surveillance technology protect us versus invade our privacy? In this episode, UVA students Peter McHugh, Lidia Zur Muhlen, and Makayla Castle sit down with Professor Ashley Waters-Gundersen. Gundersen, a UVA School of Law lecturer and former special counsel for Intelligence Affairs with the New York City Police Department, to tackle two of the most controversial legal questions of our time. Part 1: The Luigi Mangione Case Professor Waters-Gundersen explains why she believes Luigi Mangione's alleged murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson constitutes terrorism under New York state law—even though a judge dismissed those charges. The conversation explores: What legally qualifies as "terrorism" vs. murder How ideology and intent shape criminal prosecution The three legal bases for terrorism charges (you only need one) Why this statute is rarely invoked and what that means for precedent Whether violent protestors with political aims could face similar charges Part 2: Facial Recognition in Law Enforcement Drawing from her NYPD experience, Professor Waters-Gundersen makes a surprising argument: properly regulated facial recognition technology can enhance civil liberties rather than erode them. Topics include: Why eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable The guardrails needed to prevent surveillance technology abuse How private companies already use facial recognition (and why that matters) When it's justified to monitor someone who hasn't committed a crime Comparing U.S. law enforcement practices to mass surveillance models abroad Key Moments: The judge's decision to dismiss terrorism charges—and why Professor Waters-Gundersen disagrees "If you have a violent criminal act motivated by ideology, that's textbook terrorism" Why limiting facial recognition to mugshot databases might actually be less fair The students push back: "Don't you think the line gets blurry with ideology?" A rare moment of minds changing: when students reconsider their surveillance stance About Our Guest: Professor Ashley Waters-Gundersen is a lecturer at UVA School of Law, teaching courses on balancing public safety and civil liberties. Before joining UVA, she served as special counsel for Intelligence Affairs with the New York City Police Department and later as counsel to the NYPD Police Commissioner. This episode demonstrates what civil discourse looks like—students engaging respectfully with expertise while maintaining critical thinking, admitting when they've changed their minds, and proving that "no legal expertise" doesn't mean you can't participate in important conversations. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 - Introduction and Guest Introduction 01:00 - Luigi Mangione Case Discussion Begins 02:00 - Legal Definitions: Second vs First Degree Murder 04:00 - The Terrorism Enhancement Explained 05:00 - Debate on Terrorism Charges and Intent 07:00 - The Role of Manifesto and Evidence 08:00 - Political Motive vs Personal Vendetta 12:00 - Precedent Concerns: What Counts as Terrorism? 15:00 - Case Studies: Terrorism Charges Success & Failure 18:00 - The Judge's Decision and What It Means 20:00 - Facial Recognition Technology in Law Enforcement 22:00 - Ethical and Privacy Concerns 25:00 - Guardrails and Policy Implementation 28:00 - Mass Surveillance vs Targeted Investigation 31:00 - Conclusion and Final Thoughts ABOUT DISAGREE WITH A PROFESSOR: The podcast where UVA students overcome academic intimidation by having lunch-table conversations with professors and experts. Each episode tackles controversial topics through civil discourse and respectful disagreement.  Hosted by Peter McHugh, Lidia Zur Muhlen, and Makayla Castle. SUPPORT THE SHOW: ⭐ Rate and review on Apple Podcasts 🔔 Subscribe for new episodes 📤 Share with someone who loves a good debate Music: "Dispersion Relation" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License Disagree With a Professor is created by Think Again at the University of Virginia, with production support from Awkward Sage Media. Connect with us: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinkagain.uva/