Valleons, build on hope. And welcome to a very special episode of Raid of Revenge and a Star Wars for Kazamiou Host, Abetara Yakuza, the young widows, Tiger Host, Otty, Pointer and Ovi, a special guest, author of Battle Deceit, Defy the Storm, and most recently, Harry Poley, Noble, Temptation of the Choice, Desac Raton is with us today here. Desac, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing?
Hi! Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I've been having a lot of fun talking about Temptations, so I'm excited to dig into more.
Ha ha ha. Now, I've been everywhere, we've seen some of those interviews. Thank you so much for taking the time. Otty, sorry, I escaped you.
How are you doing today? I'm doing good. I arrived in Florida yesterday, and it's somehow hotter than in Puerto Rico. So I'm really glad.
Yeah, it's hot, it's muggy, it's difficult out here. I know you're even louder than where I am here in North Florida. It's mad. It is.
It is. Yeah. All right. But enough weather talk.
I know people who are all excited also on the acolyte will get to the Agon Saturday. So if you're watching us today, thank you again for being here. We'll get to the acolyte on Saturday. A lot of fun stuff over there.
Test out. Well, when we have guests here for the first time, we want to know a little bit more about what is their Star Wars stories. We all love Star Wars, obviously. But when you get to do a show every week or right, start, get to the level that you want to write Star Wars.
But then you should something more that gravitates us to the franchise. Do you have one of those Star Wars stories? So how did you get involved in this universe? Do you want to be a writer and tell those type of stories out there?
Well, I don't remember a time when I wasn't a fan of Star Wars. My parents were both huge fans of the original trilogy, and I saw Return of the Jedi at a drive-in movie theater when I was about four years old. And it's actually one of my earliest memories. I don't remember a lot that I do remember really loving the tiny murder teddy bears.
So I was an e-walk band first, and then a Princess Leia fan second. And eventually it really got into everything I could find about the Jedi. It really was a lifelong fandom for me. I read all of the books from the 80s and 90s.
And I had my high school graduation party was like Star Wars themed, and my mom and I really got into it. So we just had a lot of fun. And when the first prequel trilogy movie came out and had a huge party, too, it was just like my parents also loved it. And so it was just always part of my life.
To be honest, though, it never really occurred to me that I could write a Star Wars book. So it's not really anything that I ever particularly wanted to do until much more recently, even as some of my peers and friends started working for Star Wars. I just, it didn't seem very likely because the kinds of books I write on my own are not very action-packed. And they're much more complicated, sort of like emotionally and ethically complicated kinds of things, which hasn't been what I have associated with Star Wars until more recently.
And then Justina Ireland made me. So... Well, thank her. Well, thank her, too.
I think her, too. I'm sure it's... I don't know, just being involved in that universe. Just even if I get a like or a retweet for someone that works, even remotely close to Star Wars, we all lose our mind.
So I'm pretty sure that being into that world for the first time was probably something similar. Yes, I was really excited about it when Justina first started talking to me on a download about Project Luminous, because I was her friend who really cared about Star Wars. And Justina has grown to love it, but wasn't a lifelong fan. And so, you know, she really, I think, got a lot out of talking to me.
Because she'd be like, you know, yeah, we're discussing this thing about like these one guys. I'm like, oh my God, you're talking about that? And so I think it was satisfying for her on that level. And that's when I really started getting invested in the High Republic.
And like, I remember when I first announced it, and all of those kinds of things, both as a fan and as a behind-the scenes, like really close friends of Justina. So, yeah. It is one of those things that we talked about here. It's I love hearing those type of stories, because all of us came to Star Wars from different kind of sites, either lifelong friends, like you said, from 1984.
I know people that got into it when the pre-goes came out, or even people that know that sequentially were them into it, and then they just drive it to everything inside the world. And that's what we like to do, so we're spins everyone to it. And I didn't have that cool of a high school that we had a Star Wars thing, probably at the end. Oh, no, no, no.
It was just my personal family today. My high school did not care about Star Wars or parties. I went to All Girls' Private Catholic High School, so there was no Star Wars there. But that was just my mom and I did that for our family.
That's so cool. I actually went to a Star Wars high school, so. That sounds amazing. I got through there.
And it was a Catholic old-boy school. So, yeah. All Star Wars. Test, you talked a little bit about the Ewogs and Princess Leia.
Do you have a favorite Glub Shiro, like background character or something like that? You know, I really don't think I do. OK. I just, I thought, I thought, I've been thinking about this.
And I just can't come up with anybody in particular. So I'm really sorry to disappoint you with that answer. We got to end it now. OK, thanks for being here.
Thank you next time. I'll come up with everybody. I can actually kind of relate to that because I was never into the EU. And for me, the movies were the movies.
Like, what happened? I wasn't paying attention to the background. So when I started getting into Star Wars Twitter, people were talking about all these people. I was like, who is that?
Where's this person in the movie? So, like, I cling to Ben Quaternaro's from Phantom Menace. I like, yeah, he's my guy. And he's been my guy for like the past five years.
Yeah, that's great. You've got an answer. You can just go with that. I need to figure it out.
But to be perfectly honest, since I started writing for the High Republic, I've done my best to like, expunge almost all other Star Wars media because I don't want to confuse myself. I confuse the Star Wars High Republic technology with Star Trek often enough. And even harder with the movies and the TV shows because they're like, you know, 200 years apart. And so I do my best to just stay my little High Republic author.
There's too much. It's too much I have to keep track of everything. And same thing I was joking before. I didn't have a lot of people growing up either.
It's now like, what he said, everyone talks about it. I guess I get a big song because one people, the guy running with the ice cream bucket in and party right back on class. See that guy. I never noticed that guy.
But then you gave me, I know he's a sea with man in Mandalorian, like, I love this guy. I want to be Captain Punch, Captain George. What I was doing. I love him.
So you mentioned a little bit about Tesla. I mean, just in Ireland, kind of talking to you a little bit about the High Republic. And you kind of bring, oh, yeah, Star Wars great. How was that process of joining an already established universe, kind of a new segment Star Wars would probably come into it with Phase 2 for you?
The fact that it was Phase 2 really helped out a lot because it was a prequel. And so I didn't have to jump right into writing established characters with an established plot line. You know, obviously I read all of the Phase 1 books and really dug into what I knew was supposed to happen in Phase 3, which at that point was not very much. And you know, so there was a lot of information and the original five writers, you know, had a really solid dynamic.
They've been working together for a couple of years, but not only were they incredibly welcoming, I think they were all deeply relieved that the writer and the story and I were coming in because it was so much work for them. They're like, oh, thank God, please, please come help us. Here you go. Bye.
Yeah. Stack off notes that day. Right. It was a lot, but fortunately it was all virtual.
But since I was writing Path of DeSita, which was the first book of Phase 2, we really had a lot of leeway when it came to the details. Like the big parts were there. Like, you know, we knew we were setting up the whole row, you know, ancestry. And we knew what we needed to do with the path of the open hand and, you know, who was going to live and who was going to die, basically.
But beyond a bunch of those details, we really could develop it however we wanted to. And then, you know, there's a whole approval process where, you know, not only does our director and story group, but also all the other writers, you know, have a chance to look at the outlines and you know, have comments. And so it's a very complicated dynamic process. But for the most part, like the development was me and Justina figuring out what kind of, how we wanted to tell the story.
So it was the smoothest possible way I could have jumped into what is something like book 11 of a 25 book series, something like that. Yeah, just hearing those numbers. It's like, oh my God. It's so many books.
But on the other hand, it really makes path of deceit a really good new entry point. So that was also good for me as a new writer, because I could basically say, yes, come read this new Star Wars I wrote, you can and certainly should start with phase one, but you don't have to. You can start with phase two and read in chronological order instead of publishing order. Come, you know, have a lot of fun with my doomed romance and sexy cults and cute little monsters.
So. Look, F. You know, I was still hurt by it. Me too.
That book was so weird in a fun way, because it for something like, it's like a Romeo and Juliet thing. And then it goes off the rails, the level arrives. I was like, Oh, okay. Wow.
Yeah, really, really cute level though. A baby leveler. Yeah. Just making a baby.
We will give a pass all the murder in our kids. So cute. Like murder. It's probably murder on the levelers part.
Yeah, I mean, they're just existing. They're surviving. They have to do what they can't to survive. I remember like you mentioned, when I read past the DC house, I was a little bit nervous.
Oh man, we've already known all these characters were phase one for so long and I will go back and start over. But past the DC was like, you mentioned like great introduction to phase two. You don't need to know anything. It's just gonna connect if you read some of the other books.
I don't know. It was just not because you were here. It was just a perfect way to bring people into phase two and 200 years or whatever it was before everything. It's a nice way to go into it.
And then of course it turns into Harry Potter. Like, people start dying. Yeah. Yeah.
That's not my fault. No, no, it's kind of like. But also, it goes to point how much we care about those characters. I just in one book by the end were like, no, why?
Why we have to lose care more than everyone else? Yeah. Well, I made up for it by killing zero named characters in Temptation. Yeah.
True. Yeah. And I thank you. There were a few moments that I was afraid for a bunch of them.
So thank you for that. Those last pages, I had like a, when Mark and Rose arrives at the chorus and I was like, he's gonna blow something up. Yeah. I'm so really.
Okay, go. We're okay. So as we mentioned, you've written like in different genres, as to say. You've written YA, you've written young reader novels, you've written the adult novels.
Is there like a difference in your process to writing like each, each different style or I don't know how we call it. Is it like, John or? Well, usually we'll call them like age categories. Age categories.
Like that. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No, because at the end of the day, I love the young readers, for example.
I know a lot of people dismissed them, but it still feels like Star Wars. So like I like going through all the different stories. So that's why I want to know how the process changes for each one. The actual process itself doesn't change very much at all, because ultimately it's just get your assignments and then figure out how you want to tell the story you're supposed to tell, do an outline and then turn it all in and rinse and repeat basically.
So on a really basic level, it is the same. The biggest difference for me is between the middle grade, the young readers and the adults, probably because of how much has to be going on in the adult books that you have to focus on and in the middle grade, there can be a huge galactic war going on, but your focus is a lot tighter. And so even if you have like 10 characters, there's probably only one or two, maybe three points of view and they're basically on the same mission. So it's one main plot with a little scattering of characters subplots.
This is how I think of it. Whereas the adult books, you could be telling a story about the same galactic war, but you've got like five main story lines from five main points of view that you're trying to weave together to tell the main storyline, but each one of those characters, I think should have their own plot. So I end up with like several different subplots that are hopefully all going to be able to be grafted onto the main thing. So it's a more complicated structural and plot story as opposed to the much more simple plot and structure of a middle grade.
And then the YA, it really depends. I think that path of deceit is much more along the lines of the structure of a middle grade where it was really just telling one main storyline. And a few of the characters had different roles to play or different perspectives of that main storyline, but it's relatively straightforward for everyone. But then Defy the Storm is much more complicated in the way that one of the adults it would be.
And that's partly just because there was so much on our plate when we were trying to figure out how to get everything we needed to get into that story. And that's part of both the challenge and the payoff of Phase 3, I think. Yeah, I remember reading Defy the Storm. It's how much more can they take, throwing more stuff at the end?
We have the Blides. Please give them a breather. But also you mentioned, I'll also mention about the middle grade book. My first introduction to Harry Public was a test of courage.
There we go, yeah, it's a courage. I introduced me to Vanessa, which then became one of my very greatest. But you mentioned that there's a more target of story gifts, at least for my time to build on the actual characters that you're spending time with instead of worrying about this big elected matter. So spending time with each character, then you get invested even if it's for a younger crowd.
I also also enjoy it. I think so too. It's, you know, the middle grades tend to really, like you said, sink into the problem that the kids are facing. Instead of having to just be like, okay, we solve this problem, holy crap, there's another big problem.
We've got to go solve. And that really lends itself to a really adventurous kind of story that I think Star Wars, especially the earlier movies ultimately are as well. Like the original trilogy, those stories are very simple. The way that they let the storytelling get you invested in what's going on with this little handful of people trying to rebel against a whole empire.
I think that's one of the reasons that the middle grades can be such great Star Wars. Yeah, it's not that ugly, Cecile. Star Wars is sinful, whether it's good guys and bad guys. I get very nervous when I really think it's got to get complicated because that's what I always say, like the bad guys worked dark clothes and used red swords.
The good guys use white clothes and use blue swords. It doesn't get more simple than that. Yeah. So yeah.
My favorite bad guy in all Star Wars is this guy over here. I've been obsessed with Mark and Row. And he's interested because he doesn't use weird clothes sometimes. He has a yellow lightsaber.
He has a lot of lightsaber. Yeah. He has a lot of favorite. He has a lot of lightsaber.
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. But I was also obsessed with Mardauro, his great grandmother, which you co-wrote their first appearance in the High Republic.
So I just wanted to know how that character came to you. How did you all come up with this insane woman? Because it's sanity has crossed the generation's space. She didn't start off that way, but we knew she had to get there.
So that was part of the challenge of writing Mardauro was what kind of 17-year-old kid could be the seed for what will eventually become the whole Nile and Markians specifically? Like we only knew a few specific plot things that were definitely going to happen to her when we first started. We worked with with Kevin quite a bit with this since he was writing the direct sequel, where arguably most of the really bad stuff that happens to Mardau happens. So we were really setting up her character and who she is so that it would be believable when she reacts, the way that she reacts to everything, like really triggering all of that with with Kevmo and both his life and death.
And so we knew we needed to have her in conversation with Yana as a like this is her ever any side and this is who she is, both with and against the ever any assumptions and how they're supposed to be as like a species. And then Mardau and Kevmo as sort of like compliments and foils for each other with regards to morality and philosophy and the force and faith and fanaticism and all these kind of things. And so really with those three characters in a lot of ways both Yana and Kevmo were there to try and prove the thesis of this really great, sweet, innocent ever any is going to become essentially a crazy monster. And here's why and you're going to love it.
Yeah. Yeah. So we had fun. Kevin may have written the insanity part, but you wrote one of my favorite Mardau moments.
First of all, the whole story of the close face has no no cause. Like I love that story. But my favorite Mardau moment is in part of the seat at the end when she sees the mother on leaf leveler on Kevmo and she goes like it was a Jedi. I was like, Oh, this is who this person is.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I love Yana.
I'm so happy to Yana. She's great. Mardau again, my great character. I'm like, I know that I hated her.
I love to hate that. And you see, it's like cold. Just get out. She's like, no, she's so into it.
And then she just goes, no, then I was a fierce on visions to one of the years later. Yeah. I need a Mardau shirt now. We need more.
Yeah. So you mentioned writing with Justina, Patodice and also before this one. I was that process like of working with a partner, writing with someone else and trying to decide, I want to write this character. I want to write this part of this story.
How do you guys balance that? Justina and I are really pretty good at it. We've been friends since like 2015 and have read for each other our non-Star Wars books and we like a lot of the same things, but we're very good at very different things. And so in a lot of ways, it was pretty easy for us to divide how we were going to do the work.
I was specifically brought on by Justina really wanted me to work on half the deceit with her because I love writing relationships and kissing and emotional conflict and all that kind of stuff. I know. And Justina does not. And so coming into that was pretty much I was hired to really develop the romance between Marda and Kevmo and be the one really focusing on that relationship.
And so with Patodice, it was very, I'm not even sure we really talked about it, but Justina wrote Yana and I wrote Marda and then we split the Kevmo scenes pretty evenly down the line. And then she wrote Sunshine and I wrote Aslyn. And so I think those are all the point of view. But it really ended up being very balanced.
And we had a lot of fun and it added to a lot of dynamism when we were writing because we wrote in order and so we would trade off chapters and be able to have our characters reacting to what the previous author wrote in the last chapter, even though we knew the general outline of the whole book. And then when it came to defy the storm, it was also pretty easy because we knew we were going to use vernessia and Avon and those are Justina's characters. So Justina wrote them. And we had a lot of conversations about who else we were going to use and who I wanted to write.
And so we went back and forth about Sylvester and Jordana a lot. And ultimately, obviously landed on Jordana for me to write. And then I basically begged Justina to let me use that. Yes.
Yeah. So how fun. I'm just going to go right. How fun is it to write Sylen graph?
It's great. I would like to put in an every book that I ever write ever again. So I don't think that would be possible because I'm already writing non-high-republic books. But Beauty just, he makes everything better and just brighter.
And I really, really needed that, especially in Temptation because as we've already discussed, the Jedi are really going through it. And everyone is dealing with horrible trauma and consistent trauma and nothing is getting better. But you know, when Zylen walks into a screen, at least it's pretty and colorful. And I'm going to laugh.
So even if Avar is not going to laugh, somebody is. So he's just so great. He lights up a room. There's a scene in this book when they pick him up.
And I love the detail. It comes back again that he came in with bags and everyone's like, no, I'm fine. Yes, he's fling for his life, but he packed an advance. Yeah.
He was a character when he showed up. I thought him so annoying. But as his intentions have shifted and we actually start to see who he really is, every time he shows up I'm so happy because I'm like dying to see what is he going to bring to the scene. Yeah.
I don't think I'll show that story first. I was like, we hate this guy. Why are you trusting him? He has a big fluffy dog with plinkers.
I like him a little bit. And then when he finds the storm, we get so much with him and that relationship with care and then of course, the intention of the four of these kind of brings him in together. He's helping out here in his own way. He still wants something.
But yeah, just coming with the bags. He's getting shot out. Let me get my clothes on. It's a great island.
And I forgot the name from face to the other. Axel. Axel, yeah. Axel, great.
I'm not actually so ready chaos. But come on, those two together. Yeah, I think they would be like the wrong side of magnets. So I'm just like, shoot off into other directions.
They're styling each other in the back probably. Maybe. They'll go for the right place or maybe then. They're not going to have some wine or something together.
Just laugh it off. So that's true. When you were writing, you know, you were writing temptation before is as you're writing the fight storm and you start putting little things that you're going to explore later on. And then you're going to be writing this book.
I guess balance going back to back. Writing those two books. It was really, really, really hard on my stomach and my home life. I'm sure.
It essentially was all happening at the same time. With regards to like developing the stories. You know, we did the outline for defy the storm and started writing it. And then as we were still drafting defy the storm, I needed to start outlining temptation or the force.
And so I knew I'm pretty sure by the time we started writing defy that I was going to be writing temptation. And so, you know, for the most part, it was plot things that were changing, particularly with regards to the storm wall and the Jedi's being able to get across and how they were going to do that. And even as we were writing defy, George was still finishing Eye of Darkness. And so it was still like, okay, well, we know Avar is going to get across.
How exactly is she going to get across? Because that has to have them before defy the storm. And then like we were we really struggled with having all of these beats across several books that in a lot of ways are essentially the same. And we needed to make sure we were building on each time across all of the books.
And then also the middle grade, the escape from. Yeah. Where they were also dealing with whether, you know, being trapped behind the storm wall and how are they going to try to escape and like all that kind of stuff. And that, you know, we had to do.
And I really, I knew I needed to create some back doors for myself, essentially, when it came to temptation. And that is one of the reasons that I wanted to actually use Zylin's point of view in defy because I could let him explain a lot, but also obfuscate a lot. And, you know, we get things done, but also not make a whole lot of, I don't know, promises because Zylin's not a promise. Yeah.
But at the same time, he needed, you know, I really needed people to stop hating him. But it worked, by the way. And I hope that is partly because of how entertaining he is from his own point of view, but also actually giving him something he cares about aside from his dog. And so that was part of the point of bringing in care was for me to entertain myself with this long running joke about, you know, care's princess and Zylin's secret husband, which didn't end up being as long running in the actual published book as it originally was when I was writing it.
But, you know, giving Zylin someone to care about who cared about him, who I was pretty sure readers would just like out the gate because very care is very classic Star Wars level. I was not to love if you love Star Wars. And so, you know, that was something that I did very intentionally, both for my own edification and also to, you know, make sure that readers would want to go with me when I kept pulling Zylin through temptation and continue using him in as a way into Avon and what she was going to have to do from the middle grades, you know, so it was just the storm wall was a whole headache. Mostly for me specifically.
All of us all of us hate it. That's much of the Jedi. Oh, yeah. That's fine.
Reading the book is how are we going to get through? There's no way to get through. And then I'm guessing for you guys to figure out a way that makes sense with that. Not that you're whatever is going on there and using the Jedi's power or the connection to a force real to input all those numbers.
It makes sense now, of course, but I'm sure the process of getting through it wasn't as easy. It was not. We had many, many, many meetings about it. It doesn't silence.
There's a scene I love with him and El Sarwin. He's like, what's in the pool? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, I know those eyes. And him being like, hey, it's okay.
Like you're not weak. Like it actually makes us stronger. So I really like that. All right.
So going to temptation of the force. We gotta get there. So that's, I mean, there's a lot we can spend two hours or get out in Tashalli force. And like you mentioned before, the kissing and the love scenes that we've been waiting for a long time, we'll get to that soon.
But just in this book, seeing as a chapter of El Sar, giving Ava a new diadem that we know she kind of stripped away from everything that made her not make her look like a Jedi connector to the Jedi or that that point, a new diadem with three gems to represent all three of them with Staela and then talking about the heart, who's the brain, who's the pro and also being the heart. How did you manage to do a story with those three? When one of them is missing, like a big core of that group is missing, we'll still make it part of the story. We all want more Staela and Gia, he's not there.
He's still there because almost every decision that Ava and El Sar are making is with Staela in mind. You know, I have never gotten to write Staela. He was dead by the time I joined the D.C. And so in a lot of ways, I do think that actually made it easier for me to write this whole in their relationship.
Because in a lot of ways, it's also a whole in my relationship with them. Obviously, I read all of the books in Phase One multiple times as I was preparing to work on Temptations, especially focusing on the characters that I was going to be using directly. And so in that way, I really got to know Ava and El Sar and then being able to talk with George a lot about what he was doing in Eye of Darkness and really how he was setting me up in what Charles was doing in the Shadows of Starlight series, all that kind of stuff. I felt like I knew them, but I still don't really feel like I know Stellen anywhere near that level.
And I won't until I get to write him maybe someday. I don't know what to do. But probably the easiest part of it. And I think I already mentioned that I really love to write relationships in general and really messy, complicated relationships are my favorite thing.
All of the Tesser Gratton books that aren't Star Wars really have messy disaster relationships that are what the story is really about. And sometimes including people who are dead, it's just so delicious. When there's so much conflict emotional and people want different things or want the same thing, but other priorities like duty and justice or whatever are keeping them apart. So I really love it.
And while it was a challenge, it's really just one of the reasons that I am a writer is so that I have a chance to dig into different versions of these really core human emotions and relationship issues. So I loved it. And I did it less messily than I usually do it because I had to start with Outline and I'm not usually an outliner with my own work, particularly not to the detail that we need to for this huge collaborative process that writing for the High Republic is. And so I really did most of the hard work when I wasn't typing words.
Like, you know, just like laying on my floor for several weeks, you know, for hours a day, while I was working on a defined storm at the same time, but like I would switch over to my, okay, it's time to think about some patience, put on some music and just think about it and then go for a long walk. And I walked every day and letting myself, putting on the same music and just like thinking through dialogue and how I wanted their, particularly Avar and Elzar when it came to relationship. But I also did this thinking really hard about Burry specifically and like his emotional arc through the book. And so just, I did so much thinking and like emoting and you know, I sent myself so many notes on my phone, like voice notes where I'd later have to decipher them because they never even like Elzar the same way.
So, yeah, it was just really great and a really great challenge to bring all of what I love about messy disaster people into Star Wars like that. It was just so, it was, I loved it. I'm really glad that I have the opportunity to put this messy Tesser-Graton mark on these poor people who just need a break. Using that line of messy process to make the story, one of my favorite things about Temptation is how much it pulls from everything that we've read so far, like all the elements that come in.
How do you make sure that the book is being consistent with the other books that came before and maybe, you know, for someone who's coming in, how do you make sure everything is consistent through the entire story? I really, I did a lot of homework. I, you know, reread everything. I read the things that were being currently written, you know, in the outlines.
I took so many notes. I put sticky notes in the various books and highlighted things. And I really did my best to make several lists of, you know, you have to remember all of these things for this character. You have to remember all of these things for this character.
Here's all the plot things you have to remember, you know, especially when it came to one of these characters, most afraid of, because they all have to have their individual effects, like nameless effect reactions. And, you know, that was maybe one of the harder parts with holding so much information in my book, that making the book itself as much of a, like, complete, you know, a reader can come into this even if they haven't read phase one for two years, you know, they don't need to reread. They're still going to know where we are and know what's going on and making it as much of its own whole book. That, a lot of that really landed on my editor at Rainn House Worlds, Tom, Tom Hoehler's shoulders.
He really did that a lot and would come back and say, okay, you know, here's where we are. I really think you need to earn this more and maybe we should restructure the beginning a little bit to give readers a more immediate but also gentler introduction to these kind of things. Like, he really helped me particularly with structure and then with making the book whole unto itself as much as it's possible to make book 19 of a 22-week series whole unto itself. Oh, man, we're so close to the end.
Don't say that. Don't say that. I still have your question, but going back to relationship, what's the best romance? Avar and Elzar, Orgilla, and Axel.
Well, obviously Avar and Elzar. Okay. I disagree, but I love Gella and Axel so much. I do too.
They're great. They're very delightful. But you haven't read the end of Avar and Elzar's romance yet. So how can you really completely judge?
I want to think about it. The end of Gella and Axel. Okay. That's fair.
That's fair. All right. You just tease on that. We're going to go with that.
Start all the messy relationship. Intentional before is that you just mentioned you spent weeks on the floor looking at ceiling. We also, when we got to some chapters, we have to lie down and take it all in. So again, is that finally the case for all the shipping people out there and everyone that's been enjoying that report for so many years, a lot of us were waiting for it.
Will there one day with Avar and Elzar stay on unfortunately or the picture? Hopefully same again. But how do you able or how difficult I guess was to bring this relationship to the forefront of two Gella masters, something that hasn't been explored in Star Wars. Yes, and again, it was with a senator in Rebels, we have hair and cane.
But two actual Gella masters are the height of their power or whatever they're standing in the council. But at the same time, keeping in faith what we know about attachments and connection kind of keep the Gella away from it was to make it make sense because when I read how you, how Avar talks about relationship, if it's everything's connected to the force and love connects us, then it can't be wrong attachments. That's wrong. But what we have is different.
It's what you brought me back to the line. You brought me back to feeling the force and for Elzar is still feeling that totally nor that if something happens to Avar, he doesn't know how he's going to react and she's the one that's bringing him in and just trust what we have. You're able to do that relationship, but still keep in mind what we know about Gella and attachment and why don't you usually get together? Well, in a lot of ways I've been working on this argument for my whole life.
You're like, finally, I'll be able to tell myself. I genuinely believe that the really hard line against attachments is at the core of what went wrong with a Gella because people have to love, they have to have relationships. And the Gella is, they are a community. And so it's just so excited to just be like, no, you can't love.
I do think that the difference between attachment and love is essentially what Avar says. There's that old saying, if you love them, let them go, that kind of thing. If you truly love something, then you love who you are together but won't keep them back or stop them from reaching their full potential. All that kind of stuff.
And so I think that the danger for Jedi is when love gets turned into an automatic attachment or they don't have the training to be able to let go or to save people. I mean, that is what Anakin's real problem is, is that he didn't have the support to emotionally walk him through why he needed to let go of some of his obsessions. And the Jedi Order was so against him and carried out anything. They didn't even let him save his mom.
I mean, it was just like really, it turned him into obsession and then went into danger. And I just think that was a problem. I thought that since 1999 or whenever that movie started coming up. And I started making these arguments before I knew I was going to write Temptation when I was writing Path of Deceit.
And was starting to develop the very philosophical and mostly frankly arguments that Marta and Kethmo were having about the nature of the Force. And I think Marta is the one who first says, you know, people have to be in relationship. And so in Jedi aren't in relationship, you know, what are they really doing? How can you care about anything?
How can you believe in justice if you aren't in relationship with people like that? So it was something like that. And so I was already like dancing seeds. I didn't realize I was already dancing seeds.
But I was or how I was going to figure out the breakthrough that Avar was going to be able to have. And it really took working with Charles and George in particular with what they were doing with Avar while she was in the Tractony Occlusion Zone. And you know, she was going through it on her own and having her own relationship to the Force. And the two of them really set me up well to be able to lean into my personal philosophies about the Jedi and love.
And put them right in there. Right. Not a question. But I also love when Elsar goes off all people Yoda to the relationship.
And I feel like asking Yoda's daughter out to the dance or something. I'll give you permission to go in. Yoda's like, well, bring your clothes to the Force. And that's love then.
Yeah, go for it. And then 200 years later, he's like, no. What are you doing? That's a conversation.
Yeah. I do have a lot of head canons about it though. Same. So you wrote one of my favorite chapters, not only in this book, but in the whole High Republic.
And it's that chapter towards the end of Avar, Elsar and Buriaga that you mentioned before coming face to face with the nameless. And surviving the nameless, which is not what we haven't seen too often. Buriaga did it twice in this book. So I love how much Buriaga we got.
I just want to throw that out. It's usually in the background. I love how much we got with him. Well, how did that chapter come to be?
How many revisions? So you cannot come up, like you mentioned before, everyone feels the effects of the nameless different. But I'm finally finding the Jedi way to combat this creature by taking in fear, not just giving into it, taking in the fear that the nameless creating them. And then Avar and Buriaga, which are so connected to the whole universe and to the Force itself to be the ones who take in Elsar's fear.
So he could then be the one to see the nameless and be able to attack. And at that point, I'm like, they just got together. One of the two of them is going to die. Why are you doing this to us?
How did that chapter that scene came to be? And they go through a lot of revisions to, okay, I think this is a way for the Jedi to finally combat the nameless. That's difficult as it is, not something they can replicate next week or something. That chapter, the several chapters of that final battle, particularly the parts you're discussing less so the Markian and Bernestra and Drenngeer stuff.
Those sections were probably some of the most revised and rewritten of the whole book. Well, at the same time, what fundamentally happens was always there. That was the one little sentence about the three of them defeating the nameless. I can't remember exactly how I phrased it in that line, but that one little sentence was always there.
And then of course, when it came time to write it, I was like, oh, what have I done? I promised the moon. I don't know how to do it except like the Vegas ideas about Burry and what he had already done and the connection between Avar and Elzar, but it had to be written a lot partly for plot reasons and other people's books reasons, which collect frequently the climaxes of these books get affected dramatically by the other books and trying to figure out what everybody's doing and everybody's climaxes. And like the needs of the next book in the series and that kind of thing.
And so the nuance of how they come together also, how many nameless there were, like all that kind of stuff changed every revision round. And of course, you make a change like, oh, well, instead of four nameless, there's only two nameless. That requires a lot of rewriting and a lot of rethinking. And you know, where's Markian going to end up?
Is he going to come back and shoot Avar in the chest, which maybe was one of the things that I wrote in one version? Oh, no. I was afraid when I know her nameless alike or so the icon, when she fights up with Mark, you know, like, they don't hear from her. So I don't want to hear that Ava getting shot was at one point.
She wasn't going to die. Elzar was just going to think she was dead. It's fine. Yeah.
Well, like, so just having, and then all of a sudden it's like, well, we need Markian to do other things faster. So he can't actually come back to them. So I couldn't actually shoot Avar in the chest. Like, there are just so many moving pieces and figuring out by having lots of conversations, not only amongst the authors, but also with a story group about how exactly do we think this is working with Burry and Avar and Elzar on the nameless.
How exactly do the nameless even work? And now how do we make this really satisfying? How do I make this satisfying without actually explaining how the nameless actually work because I can't. So, like, that was really challenging.
At least I had messy love. As someone who I've written, since the rising star, I've been saying the way to defeat the level is through the power of friendship. And that's been, was like, I felt so validated in that moment. I remember reading that.
I thought this is going to flip. Everyone's like, no, they're going to get dark things played and it's going to be the power of friendship. Yeah. So as we start to wind down, you mentioned your other books, you briefly mentioned Star Trek.
Is there any other franchise beyond Star Wars that you would love to just tackle and write some? Oh, gosh. Right now that's really hard because I can't think of anything that's not Star Wars. So consumed, except I've said this before, I've had this conversation with Zoraida, actually, and I would love to write for Gargoyles, the cartoon.
So if any Disney people are listening, I'm your Gargoyles writer. I'm still random. I love it. I mean, Gargoyles, going back to the chart.
There's a lot of love for a messy creature out there that, there's a lot of stuff. So Disney, you've got the phone number. So just kind of finishing up with some fun questions. When the Harry Potter came out, a lot of people were moving, like, oh, Crayon Jinglebellon, a great Jedi, the Harry Potter.
Oh, if Anakin had the support of some of the Harry Potter Jedi, he wouldn't have been different. If you could go the other way and have a character from the Harry Potter, it could be a Jedi, it could be Mark Jinglebellon, it could be Silent Graf, anyone, and put them in a different era of Star Wars, pre-Cultriloji, or Reading All-SQL, Rebels, the other characters, you might want to just see how they react in another era of Star Wars. I don't know. I really do think, despite how rough everything is for the High Republic Jedi, things are so much worse for the whole galaxy in every other era, because the Empire is the evil Republic, basically.
And so I guess I would love to be like, well, maybe Kevin would still be alive if he lived with a different era, but on the other hand, maybe he wouldn't be. And I kind of hate to subject him to that, because one of my favorite things about Kevin Mo is that he loved being a Jedi, and there really aren't any other time periods right now where the Jedi are happy to be Jedi. I mean, they're either on the run or they're struggling in some way, or they know on some level, maybe, that everything around them is crumbling and the Jedi suck, maybe. That's just one person's opinion.
But so I think that's my favorite thing about the High Republic is the Jedi trying to be good. Like, that's their priority, both as individuals and as a community. They're trying to be good, and they have at this time, you know, the power and resources to not only try and be good themselves, but to actually help other people on a grand scale. And so it does kind of hurt me to think about plucking any of them out of that opportunity and putting them in somewhere else, even though they might be of a great help.
It's weird to think that Mike and wrote to go where half the galaxy, and he's going to get worse because all about the entire whole galaxy. He's like, oh my god. We don't know. Mark is actually a good guy, dude.
He's the only hope. He's their only hope. That is what he says. I'll just put this out there.
Kevin Mo teaching Rey about the Jedi, that would be pretty cool. That would be really nice. Peebee, I'd like to think he would have grown up to be a great teacher. Yeah.
Yeah. So, Tessa, last question. Okay. I always have existed since 1977.
You mentioned I was returning the Jedi the first movie you watched in a drive in. I was in the first few hours that has made it last the test of time. How is it that in 2024 we are talking about Star Wars and new stories and new elements. What do you think it's that expector that Star Wars has?
I think that it started out as a very like hope. It was about hope constantly. It was about rebels fighting against something so much bigger than them and finding little ways and big ways to win. And I think that most people really respond to stories like that.
And then in the longer run, Star Wars has been willing to change and invite in not only new creators, but marginalized creators and people with different perspectives and different experiences of Star Wars who have been able to expand it and make it even more welcoming to viewers and readers because ultimately, that's what it's for is for people to watch and read and share and create their own versions. And I, as far as a lot of the conversations have always been about who's in charge of Star Wars and what's canon and what's not. I do think ultimately the willingness and ability to change on a huge scale over time and over decades of political changes in the world. I think those two things have are what make it last.
I love the answer. Yeah, I love it. Great. It's why I think the High Republic has connected with so many people.
All the different voices out there. We all maybe love one book for something else. I do not like doing that relationship. A lot of part of this I was found that loves those relationships.
Maybe I love all the voice stuff and that's what brings me into it. So having all those different voices like you mentioned, which also helps keep these friendships going and hope is always there. Alright, before we finish, thanks to the people in the chat. I'm sorry we couldn't get to you guys, but Dale, my friend Dale was here, Brandon, I'm just rising.
We don't thank you for joining us today. And especially Tessa, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. We learned a lot about this book. Also, I think we take a grant all the background, all the, like you mentioned, working with so many books at the same time.
I'm talking with all the authors because they're working on something before you and get three plus you have to set it up for the next one. It's how much connection there is between you guys to tell these stories. 23 books still going 19, but since Book 11 thinking about this block going out there, we only see one book at a time. But there's thank you for giving us the kind of little background, pick behind it.
Thanks, Roy. Alright, so I thank you so much for being here. You guys follow Tessa and all her social media. I think we're on the show notes below.
Yeah, Star Wars, not Star Wars, anything is just working on. Feel like message relationships. Go check it out. That's right.
I want to know how anyone else are story ends. No one very, I mean, always very interested. Yeah, light candles in your hearts for Charles. He's working on it.
Oh my goodness. I don't know. I'll tell you anything else before we say goodbye to everyone. No, this was awesome.
Thank you so much. That was very fun. Oh, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.
Yeah, hopefully we can do this next time. We can all cry together as well. So thank you guys. We'll be back outside with our regular show.
We'll be back every single day. We'll be back every single day. Stay safe. We say like every place we'll say live today.
I try to find hope tomorrow. Help is coming. See you next week. Thank you.
Bye.