The Character of Authority in Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar” (Part 2)

Wes & Erin continue their discussion of Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar,” and its sustained reflection on how political power is constructed, located, and legitimated. Upcoming Episodes: “Amadeus,” Susan Sontag. Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. This podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit AirwaveMedia.com to listen and subscribe to other Airwave shows like Good Job, Brain and Big Picture Science. Email [email protected] to enquire about advertising on the podcast. Follow: Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:19 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. 0:32 Wes: Okay, welcome to part two of our discussion of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. We just got done with part of act one, scene two for one hour now. We did a big discussion of Brutus to start things off. And then we started diving into end of the play and we were talking about the character of Caesar. So I had pointed a little bit to this idea of what Caesar do it and it's performed and the way that's dreamlike. And then the accusation against the soothsayer. And then we move to the point of view of Cassius and Brutus. Right. This is the point where Brutus says he's not gamesome enough. Quick spirit. He's not going to the football game. He's just going to go home and feel depressed. 1:14 Erin: Yeah. And he comes down to he's a Stoic. You know, they're always such fun at parties. Vexed, I am of late with passions of some difference, conceptions only proper to myself. So, you know, leave me alone to think my precious thoughts. 1:29 Wes: Poor Brutus, with himself at war, forgets the shows of love to other men. So, you know, Cassius is saying, why have you been so distant with me lately? 1:37 Erin: Yeah. 1:37 Wes: And Brutus, I'm worried, honey. I'm worried about work. 1:42 Erin: I feel like you don't have time for me anymore. 1:46 Wes: Exactly. And then Cassius says, well, I have some things I want to share with you. I've been withholding them, these worthy cogitations because you've been in such a piss poor mood, but maybe it's time to share them. And then he brings up this idea of do you know what your reputation is? And later on. Well, no, it's right here in the scene. Brutus lacks mirrors. He doesn't see how highly people think of him. And this seems to be right. This is a very similar sort of. Well, here we have flattery. And flattery is going to be another big theme in the play. Caesar's going to say later on he's absolutely immune to flattery. Decius says, actually if you want to flatter Caesar, just tell him he's immune to flattery and then he'll eat it all up. And flattery is the way you win over the crowd, right? Rhetorically. So this is all very important and this is what Cassius's project right now is with Brutus. Engage in a little flattery and see if that works. Oh Brutus, you're so high minded and honorable. Everyone thinks that and that will impel him to act according to the image in that mirror. Now I'm not so sure this is actually what motivates Brutus, but yeah, what do you think? I'm not sure what Cassius is doing is actually the big motivator. And especially since his being worried suggests that he's already in this frame of mind. 3:15 Erin: Oh, definitely. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think Brutus actually picks and chooses what he wants to from Cassius. Overall spiel. I love this idea of the mirror because yeah, it's like Brutus doesn't even have a body. He's like a brain in a vat or a microchip. Brutus seems to be all about, you know, he's cogitating because he's concerned because he's of two minds. He's at war with himself and he has to resolve this, I think into a singularity. And so in a way, Cassius's method of this mirror idea seems to be the wrong move. Caesar has statues of himself everywhere. He's populating Rome with himself. And Brutus seems to be about containment or reduction or the, or the desire to reduce himself to a single cause or a single thought. He's upset, he's melancholic, because he doesn't know what to do. He really wants to kill Caesar, but he doesn't know if he can justify it or he's really concerned about Caesar's growing power and feels conflicted about what to do. And so it seems that he needs to get to a decision. And then once he makes that decision, he then has to back it up with a lot of reasons. But like it seems that he needs to rush toward a single resolve, a single resolution. When Cassius tells him that he has a hidden worthiness, he says it is very much lamented, Brutus, that you have no such mirrors as will turn your hidden worthiness into your eye, that you might see your shadow. So the mirrors are sort of for Brutus's own benefit to see something in himself that he isn't aware of. Then Cassius goes on. I have heard where many of the best respect in Rome, except immortal Caesar, speaking of Brutus and groaning unto underneath this age's yoke, have wished that noble Brutus had his eyes. So the first part of that is about I wish you had a mirror in yourself. So that you could see inside your little nooks and crannies, something which is unknown to you. Then he does this sort of wider thing. Other people look at you with such admiration. If only you could see yourself in the eyes of others, then what you need to do will be revealed to you. And what does Brutus latch on to about the first part of that rather than the second part? 5:37 Wes: Right. 5:37 Erin: So he says, into what dangers would you lead me, Cassius, that you would have me seek into myself for that which is not in me? So he ignores. So this is, I think you know what you're talking about, where he's not really motivated by the flattery. He's not really motivated by this idea that other people are really, really love Brutus and really wish that he were, you know, in more control in Rome. Brutus is motivated by the thought that there might be something in him that he's not aware of. And it doesn't have to be worthiness. I mean, he's really motivated, I think, by introspection and discovering, digging up everything in himself that is in there. Because he's obsessed with this idea, I think, of self knowledge and of being as rational as possible, which means examining oneself as thoroughly as possible. And that's what he latches onto in Cassius's speech. He goes right to this, you know, what's in me that I may not know about? And therefore, like, what mischief are you up to? Because are you going to tell me there's something in me that I'm not aware of? 6:43 Wes: Yeah. So the surface content of this is everyone thinks you're so great, Brutus, and wishes that you knew you were great, right? Everyone thinks you're great, except for Caesar. Love that little parenthetical. Everyone's groaning underneath his age's yoke and wish noble Brutus had his eyes, right, to see himself. But another way of interpreting that is wishing Brutus had his eyes to see what other people see in him, which is to say, to be responsive to the crowd the way most people are, and to be responsive to the prospect of glory and the prospect of recognition, to be able to be manipulated by the crowd in the usual way into becoming a projection of their own grandiosity. Which is another way of saying to become an autocrat himself. I'm just taking that line of thought out to its most pernicious possible conclusion. Don't take all that at face value. And another way of reading this is just an even more sinister way. Cassius is, in a very subtle way, saying, look, Brutus, Caesar is becoming a tyrant. And everyone's saying, why hasn't Brutus done anything about it? Brutus is the go to guy. That's what he's doing. And then when Brutus responds and says, seek into myself for that which is not, you would have me seek into myself for that which is not in me. It sounds like he's saying, you're trying to get me to think I'm great when I'm not. But maybe back to this question of flattery. I'm kind of giving another dimension to the flattery which is kind of threat, right. Brutus, the threat of loss of people's respect because he's not doing anything about Zealand. Those are two different ways of thinking about it. And I think the latter might be the thing that is more motivating for Brutus. Not that flattery is going to work on him and that Brutus wants to be seen as great in everyone's eyes or to acquire that for himself, but that he already has that and could lose it. He could be shamed by all of this. 8:46 Erin: Yeah, I think I immediately went to a sort of deeper interpretation than the one that you're pointing to. But I think that there is concern here that there is something about himself that he's not aware of, independent of this idea that people are relying on him. I think part of the reason why the flattery angle maybe isn't working and this idea of other people's eyes being Brutus's eyes doesn't work is that Brutus isn't interested in. I'm just going to say he's not interested in other people's opinion of him, though I think he is. He doesn't understand the social component of self assessment or the importance of knowing oneself in relation to others. 9:36 Wes: And that's interesting in light of the fact that Cassius says I'm going to be your mirror. You can't see yourself, so I will be your mirror here. So I, your glass, will modestly discover to yourself that of yourself which you yet not know of. Modestly. Right. He's not going to exaggerate it. He's not going to flatter. And he'll go on and say, I'm not going to flatter you. If you know that I do fawn on men and hug them hard and after scandal them, or if you know that I profess myself in banqueting to all the rout, then hold me dangerous. So if you know me to part of this is fawning and flattery. Right. And then backstabbing after that. But he's like, you know, I'm not a flatterer. I'm going to give you an accurate representation, and I'm going to be your mirror. And I'm not just trying to manipulate you. And then there's a shouting and flourishing because we're hearing the part where Caesar first rejects the crown. And Brutus, I do fear that people choose Caesar for their king. So now we're getting into open discussion here. That's only been hinted at. And he'll go on to say, I'd rather die for the general good than have Caesar be king. And then we get Cassius kind of reposed to that, where he says he would rather die. How does he put it? Than I had as lief not be as live to be in awe of such a thing as I myself. Right? Such a thing as I myself just being another ordinary human being. And then he gives the great account of Caesar almost drowning. And that same eye whose bend doth awe the world did lose its lustre. Ye gods. It doth amaze me a man of such feeble temper should get the start of the majestic world. And then we get this idea, right? So Caesar is either an ordinary man, or he's maybe even of more feeble temper. He's epileptic. He was too exhausted to swim the river, and Cassius had to save him. And then we get this great speech. Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world like a colossus. And we petty men walk under his huge legs and peep about to find ourselves dishonorable graves. Men at some time were masters of their fates. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings. I don't think I ever fully understood this speech. I mean, in high school, I don't think I understood. Right. When Caesar is called a colossus, it almost sounds like he's being called a great man. But Cassius, point is, he's not a great man. He just seems like a colossus in comparison to our cowardice. He's just an ordinary guy, or maybe even less than that. But we're a bunch of sheep and cowards here in Rome and we're letting him take over. It's interesting because he moves on from this idea that he's gonna be a mirror to Brutus that's just kind of left behind and they get into what Caesar is to them. 12:23 Erin: Well, yes, but Cassius is being a mirror to Brutus in a deeper way first. I just wanna backtrack a second and address what you said. I do fear choose Caesar for their king. That's, I think, in relation to the shouting that they're hearing. And this is Brutus's interpretation. Right. But in fact, this is a misinterpretation. So these shouts are cheering for Caesar because he's refusing to be their king, 12:47 Wes: but he was loathe to reject that crown. 12:50 Erin: That's Casca's interpretation. So it is the occasion for him to come out and say what he fears. But even that statement is only in light of what he is hearing. Then Brutus launches into this whole thing about honor. And then Cassius says, I know that virtue to be in you, Brutus, as well as I do know your outward favor. I know you're an honorable guy. Well, honor is the subject of my story. So he is being a mirror to Brutus. He's basically saying, like, let me put this in a way that Brutus is going to listen, so I'm going to cast this as a story of honor. 13:24 Wes: Ah, I see. 13:25 Erin: So he's mirroring Brutus in the way that he trying to tell Brutus what he wants to hear. And Brutus is like, oh, oh, this is a story about honor. Now I'm listening. Right. 13:36 Wes: So they're being dishonored by, you know, if they're going to be subservient to someone like Caesar. 13:43 Erin: That's exactly right. And Cassius goes on to say, you know, for my single self, for me personally, I'm just one guy, you know, But I'm just saying, right. And then he tells. 13:55 Wes: Don't know about you. I don't know if you like. 13:56 Erin: Like, I don't know if you really like being someone who's dishonored, worshiping a loser. Right. But for me, for me, it's just. I'm just saying. And then he tells the whole swimming story, which is like the. The happens in this movie Gattaca, that we're. We have to cover on the podcast eventually, which I love, but basically, you know, but he's just this guy, this sick guy, and it seems like a dishonor for us to have to deal with that guy elevated above us. And repeatedly, I will say that so much of this, so much of this idea of honor is gendered too. I just want to point that out. Like, are we going to be beholden to this guy who is like a sick girl? He characterizes him womanish. Womanish, right. You know, how could Caesar be so great if I had to save him from the river? There's this idea of Manliness. This is also very appealing to Brutus, and it seems interchangeable. Manliness seems interchangeable with honor throughout. I just want to point that out because I think it's going to become more and more important as the play moves along. And as we see Portia, for instance. And even with the body of Caesar, what ends up happening to Caesar? I think there's some statements being made there. And there's something that is like rebuking on a basic manhood level. That seems to be a motivating factor for Cassius's upset over Caesar and maybe also Brutus's, you know, are we gonna be men and fight back? Are we gonna do something? Or are we just gonna accept our fate? And Calpurnia is really upset about signs. And, you know, this is later, right. But are we going to look outside and say, oh, no, all these bad omens are happening. Maybe don't go to work today. Because that seems to be something that, like, a woman will do in this play, right? Or are we going to actually take action? Are we going to be men and take action? That seems to be the kind of the binary, the implicit binary that's being set up here. So are you a real man, or are you just a sick girl? Nothing worse than a sick girl. I would hate to be one of those. So, yeah, and then we have this idea of, like, conjuring, too. But he amps it up more and more. Then he sort of gets into the perfect personal. But he uses this honor thing as a way in. And I think that. That it's connected to this idea of being a real man. 16:18 Wes: I think also at stake here, there's a little bit of what's in a name going on. 16:23 Erin: Yes. 16:24 Wes: Write them together. Yours is as fair a name which is funny. So beyond Caesar's mannish being manly or womanly or epileptic, feeble or not, there's just the fact that whoever Caesar is, this is just a role. He is just human, and this is just a role. And there's other actors in Rome. The role, you know, the executive role should never grow to encompass everything. It should be one part of the republic. So he'll say, upon what meat doth this our Caesar feed that he has grown so great age. Thou art shamed, Rome. Thou hast lost the breed of noble bloods. When could they say till now that talked of Rome that her wide walls encompassed but one man? So this idea that there's no room for anyone else to be a man or to be strong or an agent or an actor in light of Caesar crowding out that possibility. Caesar becoming everything now, is it Rome indeed and room enough when there is in him but only one man? So my point there, you know, there's two points I'm making. One is about this idea of Caesar's expansion and exclusion of manhood or agency and others. But also the fact that. And I think this is going to become very important, that there is no divine right. There's no essence here. Caesar just has this role on loan. And the man ought not. Right. The role. It might be great. The role might be very prestigious and important. The role of being a leader or a president or what does he have both consulships at this point? What's going on now at this point? I don't know his official title. I think he's got both consulships. 18:15 Erin: There's so much time collapsed here, too. I was trying to work out the 18:18 Wes: timeline, but in any case. Right. Yeah, he's not an emperor, but he's in danger of becoming one. And so the. The role is bigger than the man, and the two ought not to be conflated. The role is something like a social construct, and we ought not to lose sight of that fact. We ought not to treat metaphors as if. Or signs as if they are the things that they stand in for. There's a lot of that in this play and, of course, in Shakespeare's other plays. We ought not to treat the trapping, to think that the trappings of authority somehow confer some essential greatness upon a person. They're still human, all of that stuff. 18:56 Erin: Yeah. You know, the idea that Caesar just has this role, as you're calling it, there's such a. Such a dramatic irony throughout. I mean, throughout the whole play. But of course, the word Caesar will be synonymous with the role. Right? 19:11 Wes: Yes. No, he's consciously. Shakespeare makes great use of that irony in this play. 19:16 Erin: But yet. And I even love yours, is as fair a name. It literally isn't. Right. Brute. It's literally not as fair a name. And it will not start a spirit as soon as Caesar. It literally won't. Right. Caesar's ghost will come on stage. Caesar's name is in everybody's mouths all the time. So what I really like is the scale that happens over the course of this. We have this idea in scene one with the tribunes that Caesar is flying high above everybody's heads, and he's going to become. He's going to basically go out of sight and. And rain terror down on people without them knowing distance. Distance is separating him from everybody. And then this colossus thing where he's this huge body that's standing astride the city. So this is a giant man. And then it's this idea that Rome has shrunk to just this one guy. So you know, that. Then this is where Cassius says, there have been other men in Rome, basically. And one of them was a Brutus who would have brooked the eternal devil to keep his state in Rome as easily as a king. So there was the Brutus who. Who was. Who founded the Republic. There have been other people. Are you going to basically let this one man, you know, not only have his way or be just the number one guy, or just be the only guy who matters, but also kind of erase. Erase the legacy of your name and of your nobility? And this is where I'm seeing that there's this. You know, the republicans are behaving in ways which are actually more indicative, I think, of monarchy. Caesar and Antony both have this kind of divine right thing. And later, Antony, of course, will be making out a list of who's going to live and who's going to die. So there's that kind of autocratic power which is located in them, but in the republicans, there is this idea of nobility and of ancestry which seems to belie their whole bag. That seems to be the thing that's like, okay, I get, you know, that makes Brutus say, I get it. You know, I'm not gonna think about this anymore. But I hear you. And it does seem that Brutus is motivated by the. The nobility or the desire to keep alive this. This hereditary right to republicanism, to the idea that Rome has to be more than just one guy. It has to be a bunch of people. But it's Brutus's sort of divine right or his kingly cause, his honorable cause, to be the one who preserves Rome as a place for more than one guy. So he's sort of like uniquely ordained for republicanism. It's a very weird angle to go in on, but Cassius has to take it, you know, to basically get it so that Brutus will be flattered as being the equal of Caesar, but like, the equal and opposite of Caesar. 22:07 Wes: Yeah. So this appeal to honor ends with Brutus saying he'd rather be a villager than to repeat himself, a son of Rome under these hard conditions. And Cassius, I'm glad that my weak words have struck such a show of fire from Brutus. 22:21 Erin: That passes for fire, I guess. 22:23 Wes: Yeah. Right. So then we get this different Picture of how Caesar thinks of himself. This is where we will. Caesar is now passing by and Cassius and Brutus, they're planning to get a debrief from Casca and they can see something is wrong with Caesar and Calpurnia and Cicero, they look like they've just seen a ghost or something. And then we get this wonderful scene where Caesar observes to Mark Antony that Cassius has that lean and hungry look. Let me have men about me that are fat, sleek headed men and such as sleep nights. Young Cassius has a lean and hungry look. He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous. And then Antony says, no, he's not. And then Caesar, I think he suddenly moves to the idea that, oh, if I'm calling someone dangerous, Antony might think that I have fear. And so now he has to defend himself against an accusation that Antony hasn't made, but is in a way perhaps implicit in Antony's. Oh, no, sorry, it's not implicit fear. Him, not Caesar. Yes, it's right there in the text. Sorry, sorry, Antony does say it out loud. Okay. Antony uses this word fear. And then Caesar has to respond to that. He doesn't like that accusation, or that would he were fatter. But I fear him not. Yet if my name were liable to fear, I do not know. The man I should avoid so soon is that spare Cassius. He reads much. He is a great observer, and he looks quite through the deeds of men he loves. No plays as thou dost, Antony hears no music. Seldom he smiles and smiles in such a sort as if he mocked himself and scorned the spirit that could be moved to smile at anything. He just. He smiles to mock. Smiling, I love it. But here we get a clear portrait of someone who is being corrupted by power to some degree. He has to have this absurd belief that he is fearless even when he's detecting danger. Of course, how would you detect danger if you didn't feel any fear? How could he possibly know Cassius is dangerous if you weren't feeling fear? That's the way a normal person would do it. And then he'll end this by saying, I rather tell thee what is to be feared than what I fear. For always I am Caesar. And this is where we get one of these several allusions, that ironic allusions that Shakespeare is making to the double meaning of the name as I am Caesar, as if he's saying, I am king, but I'm Caesar. I'm not the type of guy who could feel fear and a divinely ordained king could not either. And then another little Touch of irony. He's like, well, come over to this side because I'm deaf in this ear. So we get another. Immediately the aftermath of that is we get a little portrait of his frailty in contrast to this self conceptionist. Fearless. 25:13 Erin: Right. I mean, this is the man who crossed the Rubicon and has behaved in ways which are fearless. And he has to kind of keep that up as his body is failing. 25:21 Wes: Yeah. Have you read the Conquest of Gaul at all? 25:24 Erin: I've read parts of it. I read all of Plutarch's lives back in the day. It's been a very long time. But. 25:30 Wes: But it's a very different. Right. Yeah. It does not. This is a very different Caesar than comes across in that book or even Antony and Cleopatra. This idea of him, you know, him being kind of a little bit doddering. Right. 25:46 Erin: It makes me feel a little bit of affection for him because of the kind of the silly disjuncture between. I'm not afraid of anything. And can you also speak into this ear, please, Because I'm feeble, you know, and we've just heard Brutus say, I love the name of honor more than I fear death. You know, so there is a culture of fear as the worst thing, fear as the womanly thing. So one has to constantly pay lip service to. And that seems to be what Caesar is doing. Right. Like, I have to keep reassuring people that I don't, or I have to keep saying this out loud and hopefully it'll be true. 26:22 Wes: Could say a bit about Casca's characterization of Caesar as, you know, rejecting the crown but really wanting it. And then he has an epileptic seizure. So another pointing once again to this frailty in Caesar. And the epileptic seizure, of course, becomes the storm. And as we'll see in a. Is representative of. It's not just literally that he's sick. It has something to do with his ambition and the unnaturalness of the ambition. But I just thought we could comment briefly on this dynamic between him and the crowd, because this is another case where we're right. The crowd is the mirror, in a way. And. And then there's the question of rhetorical tricks and flattery and all that stuff. And then Casca compares it to theater performance and he does this dramatic thing where he offers up himself to have his throat cut, but he apologizes for this fit that he has. And then the wenches forgive him. Casca says, if Caesar had stabbed their mothers, it would have been the same. So something's going on here about how he Manipulates the crowd. But it's a little bit vague to me. It's Greek to me. It's a little bit vague how all that was working. 27:46 Erin: I agree. It seems like he's almost embarrassed or he realized he overplayed to the crowd with the cutting his throat thing. Like, maybe it didn't go over that well. And then when he comes to, he's like, oh, I'm sorry if I said anything inappropriate. He's testing them by seeing how far he could take it. But at the same time, the most fascinating part of this for me is that assessment that you mentioned of Casca seeing it as like a theater performance. He says if the tag-rag people did not clap him and hiss him according as he pleased and displeased them as they used to do, the players in the theater. I am no true man. I thought about that for a long time because I was like, this is kind of a bizarre power dynamic, universal scene. 28:29 Wes: Yeah. 28:30 Erin: What, is Caesar throwing a fit if they don't cheer for him like he's a toddler? Or does he have one of those light up applause signs like they have during studio recordings of sitcoms? I don't think so. Right. Again, this is the failure of these conspirators to give credit to Caesar's own popularity. So rather than saying, gee, how come Caesar is so appealing to these people? They're like, what did Caesar do to get them to cheer for him like that? You know? Or like, he must have given them something. He must have given them some sign that they have to be cheering for him. You know what I mean? It's this fascinating psychological reversal. It's very. To me, it's just very indicative of envy. You know, it's. It can't be. They can't be cheering for him because they're cheering for him. It has to be that Caesar is somehow getting them to cheer for him. Right. Like there's a circuit that their minds are doing which is leaving out that Caesar merely knows how to work a crowd. And it's bypassing that to say that he's somehow getting them to clap for him in a way which is manipulative in some far more straightforward way than simply he knows how to work a crowd. Again, there's a discounting of Caesar's popularity, which I think is. Is really is going to be their downfall. 29:51 Wes: Yeah. Although after Brutus's speech, the crowd is quick to turn on Caesar. I mean, it does seem in line with the whole idea of fickleness. The tribunes, Right. Bring at the beginning. And I do, I kind of take Casca's account at face value because I think that's part of the point of indicating that he's kind of dull witted as to make us believe this account more. But. Right. And so here when Brutus says he has the falling sickness, Cassius says, no, he doesn't, we all have it. And then Casca is confused by that. So that's one of the reasons he gets called stupid. But yeah, I'm still confused by the dynamic. He sees that the crowd, that Casca's theory. Right. So we can, yeah, you know, Casca's interpretation we could be skeptical of if we'd like. But he, because it is a very confusing account, he sees that the crowd was glad he refused the crown. Then he does this thing where he offers to have his throat cut, which I don't get. I don't understand why he would do that or what that means because it seems to indicate. Is he saying I'm. I don't know what the point of that is, but whatever it is, it goes too far. That's the thing that, that dramatic gesture, I mean the whole clap in hiss thing suggests he's. Yeah, he's pandering to the crowd. He's being a performer, he's very in tune with what, what it is they want. And he's trying to calibrate everything he's doing to that. But perhaps the throat cutting thing is a little bit. He's too in touch with maybe the aggressive qualities of the crowd. Right. Because it's always a double edged sword. Worship and then sacrifice. Right. So one, you know, or he's flying too high, so to speak. He's flying a little bit too high and then he has that seizure, maybe gets frustrated. 31:38 Erin: Oh, here I'm refusing this crown for your sake. What do you want to cut my throat now? You know, maybe. 31:43 Wes: Well, that's the end. That's one possible. I guess that's the idea. It just seems like a weird, weird thing for him to do because the whole point of refusing the crown is to show that he's not power hungry. 31:57 Erin: Right. But if Cask is to be believed, then he really wants it and he's upset at having to refuse it. And that's why they've all come away upset, because Caesar's pissed that. Yeah. 32:07 Wes: Oh, I figured they were upset just because of the fact that it ended with an epileptic seizure. 32:13 Erin: Yeah, that could be it too. But then why would Caesar be angry and everybody look like they were chastised by him or something. Sounds like he came off stage and was like, what do those people want from me? And started yelling at everybody because he's a little bit of a diva or something. I mean, obviously he's a huge diva, so. Another reason why I love him. 32:31 Wes: Yeah. So we don't have to pause for a long time on any given scene, but. Or part of scene two, just where we still are. But after Brutus exits. Well, Brutus thou art. Cassius says, well, Brutus, thou art noble, yet I see thy honorable metal may be wrought from that it is disposed. Therefore it is meet that noble minds keep ever with their likes. For who so firm that cannot be seduced uses this word seduction. Caesar doth bear me hard, but he loves Brutus. If I were Brutus now, and he were Cassius, he should not humor me. So if I were Brutus, I wouldn't be won over by me. Cassius is basically admitting here to being a scoundrel and to actually corrupting. Right. He's right. The honorable metal is being wrought in a different right from that. It is disposed away from its true nature. This idea of nature and natural dispositions and natural causality and natural explanation is very important in this play, as in many other Shakespeare plays. But Brutus has a certain kind of character, a certain type of natural disposition, a certain metal. And Cassius is bending it to his will. But. Yeah, so I just want. That's all I wanted to say about that. Before we move on, I do want to talk about the storm quite a bit. 33:50 Erin: It. 33:50 Wes: My notes say there's a crazy storm. 33:54 Erin: Mine say man with hand on fire. 34:01 Wes: I was excited to see the. The storm in the movie, the way they would handle that. And it was pretty good. 34:06 Erin: Oh, gosh, I haven't. 34:07 Wes: But you could do more with it, obviously. 34:09 Erin: I think so. I don't remember any of that. 34:12 Wes: But if they were to do a movie today, I mean, there's so much you could do with cgi. You could really see all of these. This kind of surreal scene that's happening because it's not just any old storm. It's fire falling from the heavens and all the other stuff that they describe. But the reason why this interests me so much is because there's a series of interpretations of the meaning of the storm. Casca, Cicero, and then Cassius. Casca's naive idea, the one that Cassius is going to both Cicero in a way, and Cassius are going to scoff at, is that the storm is either caused by civil strife in heaven or the World too saucy with the gods, incenses them to send destruction. Right. The old. The gods are unhappy with us, and so they're sending destruction. And then Cicero inquires and he gets the account of. I love the line passing by for some reason is my favorite one. The he did glaze me, just being looked at and glazed upon me. 35:13 Erin: Oh, yes, yes. 35:14 Wes: Yeah. And Casca will say, don't let anyone say that these can be explained by natural reasons. You see some of this in King Lear as well and elsewhere. But this conflict between superstition and natural causality, this is kind of the pivot point at this period in history for this modern science is beginning to flourish and superstition is looking more like superstition. And he says, these are portentous things unto the climate that they point upon. So now, Casca goes on to a different idea, that there's an element of prophecy in this, let's say. And Cicero says, well, men construe things after their fashion. In other words, you're just. This is a projection of your own character or of your own fears. Cicero is a realist. He's a stoic and he's a realist. He's not like this superstitious Casca. 36:13 Erin: Yeah. Casca's list of things I just think is hilarious because it ends with the most uninteresting. He's like, there are men on fire walking up and down the streets. And last thing in the list, even at noonday, upon the marketplace, the bird of night, the owl sat, hooting, shrieking. It's like, okay, so there was an. Also an owl in the middle of the day. 36:32 Wes: Yeah. And I don't think Cicero. Yeah, I don't think Cicero believes a lot of this stuff. Yeah, the owl, sure. 36:38 Erin: But I don't. I don't think Rome Live at five is going to be, you know, like, showing footage. An owl hooting in the middle of the day. I think it might be focusing on the men on fire walking up and down the street. But 36:52 Wes: anyway, the dead coming out of their graves, as we'll learn later on 36:57 Erin: from the lions walking around the Rome Zoo was empty that day. 37:04 Wes: Cicero, I take as the second interpretation, 37:08 Erin: which is no interpretation. 37:09 Wes: Yeah. It is indeed a strange disposed time. But men may construe things after their fashion, clean from the purpose of the things themselves. In other words, this is all people's superstitious imagination. And then when Cassius comes, it's going to be. Casca's worried about the storm, and for Cassius is a pleasing night to Honest men who have known the earth so full of faults. So here it sounds a bit like Casca's idea that the gods are going to punish us for something we've done wrong. But I think Cassius idea is going to turn out to be that there's a certain type of fault in authority per se. This is partly why I think that the storm is Caesar's epileptic fit. And that Caesar's epileptic fit, the one that he experiences rejecting the crown, is sort of predicated on him flying too high a bit or something like that. Predicated on him being on the precipice of absolute power and then things falling apart at that point. So here's what Cassius says. Those that have known the earth so full of faults, for my part, I have walked about the streets, shows his breasts to heaven. He just says, go ahead, strike me, storm. And then Casca says, why would you tempt the heavens that way? And Cassius, you're a dull Casca. And those parts of life that should be in a Roman you do want, or else you. Or else you use not. You look pale, gaze and put on fear and cast yourself in wonder to see these strange impatience of the heavens. And then he gives his own little list of things that are happening. Old men's fools and children calculate. I love that one. Why all these things change from their ordinance, their natures. This idea of things changing their natures is what it's all about here. Which again is in parallel to. To people changing their characters, becoming corrupt. They change their natures and preformed faculties to monstrous quality. While you shall find that heaven hath infused them with these spirits to make them their instruments, to make them instruments of fear and warning under some monstrous state. Now I cask a name to thee, a man most like this dreadful night that thunders lightnings, opens graves and roars as doth the lion in the Capitol. A man no mightier than myself or me. He's on that track again. Caesar's really not that great, but yes. So Cassius directly compares Caesar to the storm. Later on, he's going to say. He's going to change his interpretation of the storm and say that what it represents is the rebellion as well. It represents the assassination. And in a way, that's one of the deeper themes in this play, is that the rebellion itself, I think, is part of your point about Brutus. But the rebellion itself kind of incorporates some of the same autocratic authoritarian qualities as the thing that they're rebelling against. 40:12 Erin: I'm interested in this idea of nature that you're talking about, or bending things from their nature. Because then he says, I know where I will wear this dagger. Then Cassius from bondage will deliver Cassius. So then he addresses the gods and says, therein, you gods, you make them weak, most strong therein. And you gods, you tyrants do defeat. Nor stony tower, nor walls of beaten brass, nor airless dungeon, nor strong links of iron. In the corner, I have a little note to myself. Cassius loves lists, and being on a roll can be retentive to the strength of spirit. But life, being weary of these worldly bars, never lacks power to dismiss itself. 40:51 Wes: So suicide is always a possible route to freedom. 40:54 Erin: It's always a possible right. We could always free ourselves that way. That part of tyranny that I do bear, I can shake off at pleasure. So I can just shake all of this off. I could just shake life off. 41:04 Wes: So can I. So can every bondman: in his own hand bears the power to cancel his captivity. 41:11 Erin: That's right. I can kill myself, too. We could all kill ourselves. And why should Caesar be a tyrant then? Poor man, I know he would not be a wolf, but that he sees the Romans are but sheep. 41:22 Wes: What trash is Rome, what rubbish and what offal when it serves for the base matter to illuminate so vile a thing as Caesar. What a great line. 41:32 Erin: This is all great. I just, you know, the lion thing. Yeah. So what is this about? This is about nature reflecting Caesar. Well, there's a lion walking around here because, you know, the Romans are just. I mean, I'm conflating the two, but there's an interesting contrast. This is all messaging about how the world is so bad and Caesar is causing all this, all these problems also. What can you do? Caesar's just being. Caesar's just taking advantage of the situation. You know, there's a lot of. I don't know what this is like. I can't tell quite what mood Cassius is in or whether he's sort of setting it up. So you can answer. 42:15 Wes: Yeah, I don't know if I can answer that, but I do want to emphasize, right, he makes this point, right? Things change from their ordinance, their natures and preformed faculties, Right? Because old men aren't supposed to calculate, right? By which he means, I guess, prophesy, but from the foot. From my footnote here in my text. But I just thought of. With old men, fools and children, just being really smart, doing math, like on a chalkboard, doing, like, a Good Will Hunting type of thing, and people freaked out oh my God. 42:50 Erin: What the hell is going on? 42:51 Wes: But you know. Yeah, right. The hand, when it burns, should burn up and people should be screaming in pain. But that's not happening. So it's against nature. And somehow for Cassius, that's what is monstrous. Right. What's monstrous is what stands out. It's almost like a miracle within the natural order. It stands out as not being part of the causal order or a genetic monstrosity. Right. Something has gone wrong. So when heaven makes them, uses that as instruments of fear and warning, Heaven is trying to say something unnatural is happening. And the unnatural man is the man who's most like this dreadful night is Caesar. There's something unnatural about him or there's something unnatural. And what's unnatural? Well, first of all, since authority is a social construct, it's unnatural in general. And then he's going to go on to make, make the case that by making the point that Caesar isn't a great man, that point is that no man can actually live up to the name, the role, the designation. We shouldn't equate the role and the authority of that role with the actual person. It's not of his essence, it's not of his nature. What's unnatural is when those two things get conflated. We conflate a particular person with this fantasy, right? And it can be a crowd created fantasy, the crowd mirroring back to the man some sort of monstrous self image, monstrous self conception. But if, yeah, we equate this grandiose image of power and the particular, because the role of course is powerful. But in any case, the two shouldn't be equated. And so that's where we get something perverted away from its nature. 44:43 Erin: Yeah. But then he says, well, it is natural for Caesar to have become a tyrant because the Roman people cast him in the role. 44:53 Wes: You know, that's a way of saying it's socially constructed. 44:55 Erin: Yes. 44:56 Wes: And what's socially constructed is precisely the opposite of the natural. It's not part of the essence of the thing, it's just part of. It's because the crowd believes it so that it makes it so. 45:07 Erin: But, and then I think, I think though at the end he kind of comes full circle in. There's a bit of a giving way in that, Right. You know, Caesar's this awful guy, but then also he's doing something which is natural to him. And then he says the complexion of the element and favors like the work we have in hand, most bloody, fiery and most terrible. So actually the fiery sky all of the. This is like the bloody work that we have to do in order to overcome. Right. So it comes full circle. So he sort of ends up reverse engineering the very thing that he's using as the sign of. 45:44 Wes: Yeah, he keeps changing his interpretation of the storm and where it ends up is the storm. You know, on the one hand the storm represents. And all the storm, which is to say all the unnatural, monstrous things that are happening, represent the monstrosity that is Caesar and the monstrosity that is the crown, that is the making of a monarch. The monstrosity of absolute power, let's put it this way, as opposed to power that answers the people. Although in this play the monstrous power is a function of the people in a weird sense. But anyway, he changes interpretation to say, yeah, the storm actually represents the work that we as the assassins must do. Which is, you know, an incredible pivot. 46:25 Erin: Right. 46:25 Wes: In a way you could say Cassius is sloppy. But you know, I think the real point is. Right, yeah. That the rebellion mirrors the thing that's being rebelled against. It carries the same unnatural, autocratic, authoritarian tendencies as represented by Brutus. Relationship to honor. 46:43 Erin: Yeah. What I love about this is the dramatic irony that this sets up. I mean, the fact that we know what's going to happen. The fact that even the characters on stage kind of know what's going to happen. It's as if there was a prophecy, this autocratic rule, this rule by one man and they're going to. Then, you know, and this is all part of this prophecy. And of course, by trying to eliminate, trying to eliminate a king, it produces the very thing that they tried to avoid. Right. So there's something in the circuit that Cassius's interpretation undergoes that seems to reflect this self fulfilling prophecy element of every self fulfilling prophecy. Right. And so in a way, the entire play functions that way. Or you could say the prophecy is that they're going to not be able to bring this about and die in suicide or something like that. And so it's as if the entire plot is intending to bring that about. Because it knows already what's going to happen. Because we know already what's going to happen. 47:38 Wes: So no, I think this is a really good point just because I think Shakespeare is thinking about what would have happened if Caesar had lived. You know, we know what did happen, which is just this whole sequence of events ensured that a monarchy, you know, came about and Octavius became emperor and all that stuff. What would have happened otherwise? Is it just that the conspirators made their own worst fears come true. 48:04 Erin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, let's end with worst fears come true. That's great. Okay. 48:09 Wes: Worst fears come true. All right, on that note, we'll be doing another recording of this. We could just do another two or three. I mean, we could just do this forever. Could discuss this one. Play for the most. 48:24 Erin: We'll say there will be parts three and four, and then maybe parts five and six, depending on how fast we go. 48:29 Wes: And I'm in no hurry. I don't mind if the audience doesn't like it. They can boo and hiss and then I'm gonna fall down and have a fit. That's what I'm saying. 48:38 Erin: Sounds right. 48:39 Wes: Thank you. 48:39 Erin: Thank you. And thanks to everyone who listened. For an easy way to do that, go to subtextpodcast.com patreon.com please send your questions, feedback and episode requests to [email protected] if we get enough questions, we'll do some bonus Q and A shows for subscribers. You can also find us on Facebook Subtext Podcast and on Twitter enjoysubtext.