The Character of Authority in Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar” (Part 4)

Wes & Erin continue their discussion of Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar,” and its sustained reflection on how political power is constructed, located, and legitimated. Upcoming Episodes: “Amadeus,” Susan Sontag’s “On Photography.” Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. This podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit AirwaveMedia.com to listen and subscribe to other Airwave shows like Good Job, Brain and Big Picture Science. Email [email protected] to enquire about advertising on the podcast. Follow: Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:20 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. 0:32 Wes: Okay, welcome to part four of our discussion of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. We are just getting to the end of the section with the conspirators, and I just wanted to, before we move on, draw attention to Cassius's mention of superstition, because I want to get a little bit into this. Of course they're trying to figure out how to get Caesar, and Cassius is a bit worried because whether it's Caesar. Will Caesar come out to play? Maybe not for you. He is superstitious, grown of late quite from the main opinion he held once a fantasy of dreams and ceremonies. Ceremonies I take to be like religious ceremonies or something like that, but it stands in also for ceremonies of state. And later on we're going to get Calpurnia. Calpurnia will say, I've never been one to stand on ceremony, which at that point she's basically saying she's not a superstitious person either. But of course, the way we use the phrase today, we're generally thinking in terms of being formal. So this double meaning is something that Shakespeare is going to exploit in this play, the ceremony of the state apparatus and then the kinds of ceremony involved in religion and superstition, because there's a way in which the state looks Like a form of superstition and it's being socially constructed. And that same goes here for oaths as well. The fact and speech acts, right? We say, I marry. I marry you, and therefore we are married. There's something spooky about that. It's not real, Right. That's the nature of speech acts and institutions and state institutions and society in general. They're built on these speech acts. They're socially constructed. We pretend as if saying certain things makes them true. So that parallel, I think, is very important to Shakespeare because this idea that Caesar is skeptical of superstition and religion is meant to parallel the idea that he doesn't actually. Also, he doesn't respect social convention and the institutions of the state. He's all about his own power rather than in power as it's distributed in social systems. But it will turn out right. He's generally not superstitious, but he's grown superstitious of late. And Calpurnia is quite worried as well. 2:55 Erin: That's interesting because of course, Brutus conceives of Caesar's assassination as a ceremonial sacrifice to the gods. Right. And of course, Brutus is in a way sacrificing to his family gods by killing Caesar. And also, doesn't Caesar have some sort of imagined lineage that ties him back to. I mean, I know this was later made much of, but that ties him back to the gods. That ties him back to at least Aeneas, or in his own propaganda, or his family was thought to descend from Aeneas. Maybe I could be getting this wrong, but I thought he made. 3:29 Wes: I'm not sure this sort of like 3:32 Erin: Egyptian connection to, you know, I'm divine. 3:34 Wes: I mean, the Romans in general are. What's his face? Who wrote the Aeneid? 3:39 Erin: Virgil. 3:40 Wes: Virgil. He hasn't come along yet. It'll be under the reign of Augustus. Under the reign of Augustus and the boy that he writes that. So, yeah, I don't. Is that mythology? I don't know to the extent to which Virgil invented that idea that they. 3:56 Erin: I thought it was through. It is, or it's already there through Caesar's matrilineal line. But I could be wrong about that. I'm operating off of long memory. Claimed as family, the gens Julia descended from the goddess Venus through her son Aeneas. A lineage. Lineage emphasized through the mythical. Yes. His mother's family. I was right. Wow. Also connected to Mars through Romulus. 4:18 Wes: So I wonder if Virgil's picking up on that in particular. 4:21 Erin: Oh, he must be. 4:22 Wes: Since Augustus. In order to flatter Augustus and Wasn't 4:25 Erin: it Caesar's sister's son, Augustus? So that would be further strengthening his 4:31 Wes: masterfulness nephew that he adopted as his own. 4:34 Erin: Yeah. So Brutus seems to be wanting to make this sacrifice out of respect for the state and of his, as I've already suggested, this aristocratic republicanism. But Caesar too has this connection. 4:47 Wes: Yeah. So Brutus is one to stand on ceremony. In other words, he's all about the republic. But again, the question is whether is there something spooky and superstitious about that, which is not unrelated to. Is it really envy and self interest that is hypocritically presenting itself as interest in the state, the public good? That's the question that always lingers behind altruistic motives in general, but. Or an interest in the public good. I ultimately do think that there are true altruistic motives, but I think we are always posed with that question, or at least whether our motives are mixed. But I was going to take us to scene two, but that would mean skipping the Portia scene. Did you anymore. Did you have anything to say about her being in the suburbs of his good pleasure or anything else which. I love that line. 5:40 Erin: Yeah, that's great. 5:41 Wes: Before we go to scene two, I 5:43 Erin: am interested in the gender dynamics in this play. I do think they're fascinating, but also that they're not really on the central track and therefore something we won't have much time for. But I am interested in this idea that Portia accuses Brutus of treating her in this split up way and that she seems to be recognizing in him something that he's not recognizing that he's doing, even though it's all over his speech, you know, so she, she says, I'm. I'm here for you only in these certain ways. And really I'm supposed to be your whole self. I'm supposed to be united with you in this way, which is obviously extremely post Roman that she's referencing. But so she says that as a result of this not sharing his full life, but sort of being suburb ized, she is his harlot, not his wife. I thought that was an interesting. Just an interesting mirror, you know, here is Brutus's mirror, in a way, is Portia. She's sort of presenting to him this idea that he's treating her in this split way, which is in a sense of the way that he's looking at, you know, Caesar by wanting to kill his spirit rather than his body or something like that. By breaking people up into, you know, the ways that he wants to digest them. Or view them. And the wound is really interesting in that way, too, because it prefigures, obviously, the assassination and even just the. The dream of Calpurnia. But let's. Let's skip to. 7:06 Wes: Well, let me just say, before we move on. Yeah. I don't. I guess I don't Kind of. I don't quite know what Portia is doing in the play. Like, she's there in Plutarch. So that might, by itself explain it. I don't know thematically what she's doing. I think it's supposed to enhance the tragedy of all of this because she ends up dying because of what he's doing. Right. He really is kind of the tragic protagonist here. But it also highlights something that you've pointed to, which is the way in which he is closed himself off in his rumination. He's not as integrated into a dialogue with others as you might think he would be, given his interest in the Republic and that kind of. And the political. He hasn't really quite treated this as a political matter. In other words, this deliberation about whether he's going to kill Caesar in the political context of the family. She's impacted by this. She could lose him. And he hasn't paid attention to that. So he ignores that little political unit, the family. 8:16 Erin: I like that. 8:17 Wes: Which is very against principle. So maybe I do know what it's doing in the play. 8:24 Erin: Yeah. Well, you know, she becomes. In death, too. It's interesting to see his reaction, which occurs twice, or his discussion of her death, which occurs twice, which might be an error on Shakespeare's part, or it might be doing something really wonky and interestingly. 8:39 Wes: Yeah. Didn't find it very touching in the play. That's the thing. 8:43 Erin: It's not. 8:44 Wes: Yeah, well, yeah. 8:46 Erin: I mean, it's revealing in that regard. 8:48 Wes: He was supposed to be very devastated by it, historically. 8:52 Erin: Well, Brutus, the real guy, and Brutus, this guy. 8:54 Wes: Yeah. It didn't do much for me, but. Yeah. Just quickly, do you have any ideas about the wounding of the thigh and what that's supposed to do? She's trying to prove that she is capable of hearing hard truths. Right. She's got the strength to do it. So she can withstand the wound in her thigh, therefore she can withstand anything that he would communicate to her, no matter how unpleasant or terrifying, which turns out not to be true. 9:24 Erin: Yeah. 9:24 Wes: I mean, she kills herself, but yeah. 9:27 Erin: The only wound that Brutus has been interested in prior to this, other than wounding Caesar or sacrificing Caesar, is this idea of Pricking himself metaphorically in the non oath oath scene. So Portia thinks that she's appealing to him and showing some sort of manly courage by wounding herself. And in fact, I think she's hurting her argument. Because what we'll soon see, I think, with Caesar's body and what Portia should know is that the wound is a feminine symbol. Right. Brutus is all about the sword and the manliness and steeling himself with valor, as he says. And she has wounded herself to kind of show her seriousness and show that she could be just as capable as a man of whatever she imagines he accuses her of not being able to keep a secret or something, I think is part of it. And really, she misunderstands fundamentally what Brutus idea of masculinity is about, which is about wholeness rather than being wounded. But the power of that, the power of those wounds will end up being surprising and they'll end up, you know, coming back to. Literally, to haunt Brutus. Yeah. So there's something being implied here about the wound. Symbolically, it doesn't work, but she takes this, like, extreme action to prove that she's hardcore metal. And two, I think in the Brutus column, there's a wife who's trying to warn him of something or trying to help him or trying to whatever. And then there has to be the same thing in the Caesar column. So, you know, they're the only two that get wives. So since there's a Calpurnia, there has to be a Portia. This goes toward the whole. The mirroring between Brutus and Caesar idea. Yeah, I think so. I don't know. It works for me. It's an interesting scene because of that kind of gender dynamic and what that adds, the complexity that that's going to add to Caesar's wounds and the real Roman obsession that occurs throughout the play with being manly, you know, that seems to be like a big part of Roman identity. 11:36 Wes: Yeah. So in the next scene, it's a great scene between Calpurnia and Caesar. She, of course, Right. She's just had a dream about Caesar being murdered and cried out about it. And she wants to know why he's planning to go out in light of all the bad omens. And he says basically that he always faces his fears and that they will vanish. His fears will vanish when they see him. So it's not like he needs to be afraid of his fear. The fears are afraid of him. Caesar shall forth the things that threatened me Never looked back but on my back when they shall See me the face of Caesar. They have vanished. Okay, what has threatened him so? Not his fears, exactly, but what might cause fear. And then she tells us, I never stood in ceremonies, yet now they fright me. And as I've explained, there's a real double meaning there. Between the ceremony of prophecy, the people who are telling them that there are bad omens, it's a religious ceremony of a sort. And then the ceremonies of state, right? So the external trappings of offices are ceremonies. And this is something that Shakespeare harps on in many plays. You know, the rituals of kingship and the gowns of the judge, as in King Lear, what people wear. So various other rituals and forms that go. That are kind of the glue of the. Of the state. But in this case, yeah, she's saying she herself is not one to be superstitious. But in this case, she's worried. And he has this great speech, one of my favorite metaphors. Cowards die many times before their deaths. 13:19 Erin: Yes, love it. 13:21 Wes: Valiant never taste of death but once. 13:23 Erin: I have two hearts and an exclamation point. Sorry. 13:27 Wes: Of all the wonders that I have yet heard that I yet have heard it seems to me most strange that men should fear seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come. So death is inevitable. Why fear it? If you fear it, in a way, you've died spiritually already. And then, true to form, he's going to interpret one of these bad omens, the missing heart of an animal, as representing the courage it would be missing if he were to stay home. So he's really putting a good face on this. And then referring to himself in the third person, he'll say he is more dangerous than danger. This is one of the sort of absolutist moments that I've been pointing out, when what Caesar says will be done. I am Caesar. And that's all you need to know. Caesar's more dangerous than danger. Fearlessness is for Caesar what honor is for Brutus, as I've pointed out before, 14:26 Erin: the way that he works. These workarounds, though, are really interesting because for one moment, he's very, l'état, c'est moi. But the one moment where he isn't is in order to justify going out where he says these predictions are to the world in general as to Caesar. So he's like, you know, why should I be worried? Because there are plenty of people in this world. It's not like these are really about me. But of course they are about him, because he is the state, which is 14:51 Wes: a dumb thing to Say, and Calpurnia has a good relationship about all of that. Right? 14:55 Erin: Right. Right. Everybody is, including Caesar, is a fan of the great man theory of history. Unless it prevents Caesar from being seen out on a nice March 15 day. 15:09 Wes: Right. Gotta go out on the ides. It's my favorite time to go out. 15:13 Erin: Gotta press the flesh. 15:14 Wes: The soothsayer already told me. But he's a dreamer. Right. We get a new omen and then some competing interpretations. Yeah. Do to. You want. Want to give that. 15:25 Erin: So Calpurnia dreamt that she saw Caesar's statue, which, like a fountain with a hundred spouts, did run pure blood. And many lusty Romans came smiling and did bathe their hands in it. And these did she apply for warnings and portents and evils imminent. And on her knee hath begged that I will stay at home today. And Decius says this dream is all a misinterpreted. It was a vision, fair and fortunate. Your statue spouting blood in many pipes, pipes in which so many smiling Romans bathed, signifies that from you great Rome shall suck reviving blood, and that great men shall press for tinctures, stains, relics and cognizance. This by Calpurnia's dream is signified. So, yeah, I think in. In part one or two, I talked a little bit about, or we both did, about this idea of interpretation being central to the play and to the whole story. And here we have this, like, really specific moment of deliberate misinterpretation or reading of this dream, which is designed to get Caesar to come out of the house. But it's, you know, same. Exact same image, completely different message taken from that. It just, you know, reminds me of Caesar's fainting, you know, from epilepsy that we talked about in parts one and two, and the varying impressions that people are getting from his behavior. For instance. 16:41 Wes: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, Caesar conceives of himself as an unmoved mover. And here flattery is going to do the job. And that's precisely what Decius said when they were conspiring. And, in fact, you just flatter him by saying he can't be flattered. But here the flattery is more about his glory and the love of Romans and what he is to Rome. Before that, when Caesar has said that he's not going to go out, he says, I will not come today. Cannot is false. And therefore. And that I dare not false her, I will not come. And then Decius says, I'm going to be laughed at if you don't give Me a cause. And Caesar says, the cause is in my will. I will not come. That is enough to satisfy the Senate. So he's an unmoved mover in the sense that he doesn't need to give explanations through his actions. It just stops with his will. And that includes his behavior is not going to be explained by fear, but it doesn't need to be explained by any other motivation as well, as far as he's concerned. And it's certainly not answerable to the public, supposedly, or to the requirements of government and the state. So he's really not answerable, in a sense, to the Senate, but he turns out to be answerable in a sense. Right, because all you have to do is he's made answerable to the flattery of others or to the love of others. And that is what moves him. I mean, ultimately, Decius also has to say, they're going to give you the crown, or they're going to think you're afraid. So he uses other elements of manipulation as well. But there's a very stark contrast between Caesar's conception of himself as an unmoved mover, but how easily, actually, he is moved. He doesn't think he's answerable to the polity, to the public, but he is answerable. Decius proves he's answerable in a different sense to the public. He's answerable to glory. 18:53 Erin: I read that a little more generously, because I think he's demonstrating in that. That he's answerable to truth. And he just has to say, well, in the end, I just won't do it. He won't lie. And that's kind of all that's left to him in that moment. When I. I turned back the page to try and find that moment, I saw a few other instances of will being used which are kind of interesting, you know, Caesar bids his servant to go ask the priest for their opinions of his success. And the servant exits, saying, I will, my lord. There are a bunch of these instances where the servants say, I will, that I just happened to see. And then, of course, when Caesar gives that great speech that you just mentioned a moment ago, and doth say that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come. You know, death's will is. Is also something to which we're all answerable. Right. He ultimately says, you know, after Decius convinces him, says, how foolish do your fears seem now, Calpurnia, I am ashamed I did yield to them. Give me my robe, for I will go. So he's ashamed he yielded to his wife's fear. And now he's willing himself to go rather than willing himself to stay or something like that. 20:01 Wes: He's afraid of being seen as fearful, then ironically. 20:05 Erin: Oh, yes, yes, certainly. But I think. No, just your reading of the word will, I think, is a really interesting one. 20:11 Wes: Yeah. Right. To say the cause is my will. Right. It becomes a little bit of a reflection on the philosophy of free will. Where to say that I freely act, does that mean it can be unmotivated? Of course. That's a nonsensical conception of what it means to freely act. To freely act is to act with reasons. But when we act with reasons, it seems like we are bound to those reasons, and in a sense, we are. But being bound to good reasons is not the same thing necessarily as being bound to some emotion or another like fear. Although we might have a good reason premised in fear. But in any case. Yeah. To say the cause is my will, well, I would say it's kind of delusional. Right. And it is kind of the authoritarian way of looking at things, par excellence. That's why in Hitler's Mein Kampf, which I've mentioned a few times on this show, it's all about will, and of course, is a bit borrowed from Nietzsche and will to power. But for the authoritarian, the concept of will becomes very, very important. The grounding of authority. Authority is no longer grounded in any other cause. It's not for the public good, it's not for this, it's not for that. It's just because I will it. The strongest will is the one that wins. And the strong man, the great leader, is the one with the strongest will. 21:38 Erin: Well, I don't want to sound like I'm supporting Hitler, but I am just. I am just saying that this is about him, whether or not he wants to go to work today. And that is often a matter of will in our own personal lives. It's not as though he's saying, will I kill you just for fun. Yeah. 21:58 Wes: But we might admit, I feel tired today, or I'm afraid because there's a bunch of people who are going to stab me. We might be able to admit that to ourselves. 22:08 Erin: That's right. I suppose I've said that interpretation is really the central idea of the play, but also will is the extent to which, to my mind, Brutus sort of wills himself into the justification for the. I mean, it's more complicated than that. But there is this idea of. I think it's about free will, in a sense. Where does the motivation come from or where does the action come from or where. In a way it's about this idea of all of this having already happened, or it being a play or it being a story that everybody already knows. In a story that everyone knows the outcome and knows what has to happen, where does the will come from? I think the play is sort of about that. So that will being behind everybody's motivations, really, it's really. It's almost an illusion. In fact, all of this has been preordained. We all know what's going to happen and it has to happen the way that it does. So I take. Yeah, that's a long way of saying I take this moment rather lightly. I think it's a comedic moment and I think we have to know it's a comedic moment because we know he has to go to work that day because he has to get stabbed. And it's really not a matter of his will at all. You know, that's kind of the fascination. 23:12 Wes: You don't think this is an attempt to illustrate an authoritarian personality like I do? You don't? 23:19 Erin: Not quite. I think it's a funny moment, you know, because he's making light of the. I mean, I think it is and it isn't. Right. It illustrates something about him just saying. Well, because I say so, certainly. But there's something light hearted about it at the same time because he's sort of struggling to come up with. 23:38 Wes: It's definitely light hearted as well. Yeah. 23:40 Erin: And ultimately it's toying with us. It's about. There's a third or fourth order motivation here, which is about him going, I'm not going to go, but we all know he has to go. So how is he. How are we going to get him to his inevitable conclusion here? It's about toying with the audience a bit and realizing that, well, he actually has no free will in the circumstance because he's inside a play or he's inside history, which has its way with him. I mean, that's rather meta. But I think a lot of that is being played with throughout the play too. So it's funny to talk about will when you're an actor on the stage in a play, which we all know the ending to, even if we haven't seen the play. Right. So there is something a bit comical. So I think ultimately the effect of that for me is it's often Caesar's pomposity or prayer tricks the pomposity, because we know that he has no free will at all in this particular circumstance. You Know, and it's, it's just about the mechanism of, of the form itself in a way that I think it exaggerates Brutus's bad. Like something about the form itself and Brutus's cogitations or self justifications or rationalizations, I should say, heightens his bad qualities. 24:51 Wes: Yeah, I mean, I don't. Yeah, I don't think. I agree. I think it's quite a negative representation of Caesar. And historically, a lot of critics, even shortly after the play came out, reacted, how dare you portray Caesar this way. But I get your point. Yeah, I think your point is well taken about. Well, I don't see Brutus as negatively as you. I think Shakespeare is trying to point to this parallel. Right. So they're both willful and in Brutus case, Brutus. And this comes out in the letters to Cicero, by the way, as well. Brutus is like, consequences be damned. I don't care about my own safety. I don't care what happens. I'm going to do what's right. That's the whole honor, virtue thing. And as I said, fearlessness is to Caesar what honor is to Brutus. Fearlessness, including all the incredible stuff he's done, like killing a million Gauls, all these feats of war that he's engaged and power and prowess. And that element of his character is supposed to ground the rightness of what he's doing. And for Brutus, it seems to be honor. You could say it's for the republic, but is it really for the republic if you're also saying consequences be damned? So motivation becomes very important here and whether one is motivated by a conception of what's right, what we call a deontological kind of motivation or a consequentialist idea, what's going to be, on a practical level, good for the republic? Maybe it's not a great idea to launch a civil war, even if not doing so will lead to Caesar having too much power. Maybe it'll be counterproductive and actually accelerate the devolution into empire. If you initiate a civil war at this point, there are all sorts of consequentialist considerations, which are the things that Brutus should have been deliberating about. But for him, it's all about honor. 26:53 Erin: Rah, rah, rah. 26:54 Wes: The Republic, consequences be damned. I'm going to do this. So it's the same. The cause in my will is actually quite a bit closer to that, to Brutus's point of view as well. And I think, yeah, Shakespeare is deliberate, deliberately drawing those parallels. But the scene ends poignantly with. It's kind of sad because all his friends show up and they have wine together, but they're really on the way to killing him. By the way, I do want to say the other thing about something just coming from one's will. It also suggests that you're beyond the causal order, which is part of the whole idea of what's natural versus unnatural. So you transcend the natural order of if your action can't be explained in terms of natural causes or motivational causes, if it just starts from your will. And that's that unnaturalness that is expressed in the storm. And that's part of the supposed unnaturalness of authoritarianism. It doesn't answer to anything. It's not a part of any causal order. 27:59 Erin: That's a really interesting idea because then how might we square this with the. There's. There's a pretense for getting close to Caesar in order to assassinate him, which is the banishment of cimber and Caesar. Caesar makes mention of this. You know, I. He says, I'm not going to be moved by, well, flattery. Right. We know, we know he can be 28:21 Wes: another unmoved mover, you know, self conception of him, you know, conception of himself as an unmoved mover. 28:26 Erin: Yeah, exactly. And he says he can't be. Uses this metaphor about hot versus cold blood, which is kind of interesting. And then he says at the end, no, Caesar doth not wrong, nor without cause will he be satisfied. He doesn't act unjustly by not allowing Cimber back. He won't let Cimber back in, pardon him without cause. But that seems to be like, what cause would he need to pardon him? That is the question. Because that seems. That idea of like, think pardoning is an interesting one because it's about the will. Right. You can only pardon someone according to. I mean, I suppose they would have to maybe do some sort of retributive. I'm sorry. They would have to do some sort of restitution to get back into good favor. So there would be something assigned to their will in order to win them. Win their place back into someone's good graces. But if they're banished, how can they do that? It's purely a matter of. Of Caesar's will as to whether or not he would let cimber back into Rome. I introduced this with the idea that this is a false excuse to get close for the conspirators to get up close to him so that they could stab him. 29:36 Wes: Yeah. So they know he's not going to say yes, of course, but it gives them all an excuse to. And by the way, Caesar doth not wrong, but with just cause. It's meant to be funny. It's a bit of a joke because you can't justly do anyone wrong. This is the thing. Ben Jonson excoriated Shakespeare for this line. And that's what I'm looking for here. I thought I had the quotation. Many times he fell into those things, could not escape laughter, as when he said, in the person of Caesar, one speaking to him, Caesar, thou dost me wrong. He replied, caesar never did wrong, but with just cause and such like which were ridiculous. But he redeemed his vices with his virtues. There was ever more in him to be praised than to be pardoned. Now, that is a very big misjudgment on Jonson's part. That's a great line. It's part of Shakespeare's genius to put in someone contradicting themselves like that. Right? 30:31 Erin: Yes. 30:32 Wes: What Caesar is trying to say, there's a double entendre on wrong. He's not going to do violence to anyone unless there's a just reason for it. Although, of course, this is kind of the paradox at the center of the justice system in general. Right. We have a right to life and liberty, but we might execute someone or put someone behind bars. And so in the context of punishment, the right goes away. Well, then how is it a right? Right. So those sorts of paradoxes arise. But in this case, yeah, this is the. I think it's a great line, and it's one that Jonson doesn't like. But he sees his lack of mercy as a virtue because he sees it as part and parcel of his incorruptibility, and even says he's not going to turn preordinance and first decree into the law of children. So he conceives of it as being in accord with the law. He's a defender of the law. The law of children is whim, and that's the law of the tyrant. The law of the child and the law of the tyrant are the same thing, which is to do things according to whim instead of actual law. But Caesar identifies, in a way his will with the law. The imperturbability of his will is the constancy that's supposed to be there in the law. But of course, that's not the way it's supposed to go. The law has to be the imperturbable thing, and the particular actor, the leader, their will doesn't matter. They're just as beholden to the laws as anyone else. So will and law form a pair here. And the locus of authority should be in the law and not in a particular person's will. And not just in the law, but in custom, in social constructs, more generally, in ceremony. In that sense, we must stand on ceremony, even if it seems spooky. 32:23 Erin: Yeah. And the will here is also to remove Cimber from the law, remove him from the order, banish him him, in other words, so that he's no longer enfranchised. So that's an interesting idea. And he says, if I could pray to move, prayers would move me. I love this, but I'm constant as a Northern Star. 32:42 Wes: It's also a great Joni Mitchell song. 32:45 Erin: Yes. 32:47 Wes: Was it a case of you? 32:48 Erin: Yes. Do not goad me. 32:51 Wes: I just cannot read that line. I don't think of Shakespeare. I think of the Joni Mitchell song. 32:56 Erin: Exactly. Yeah. I was immediately going to start doing it. Yes, I can. 33:00 Wes: I was gonna. You gotta start doing it. 33:02 Erin: Nope, nope, nope. No. 33:04 Wes: I had to stop myself just because it would be so terrible. Would I think. 33:07 Erin: There's nothing I hate listening to more than my own impressions on this stupid podcast, so I am not going to do. 33:13 Wes: You're really depriving the audience because they are. She's really good at impressions, guys, by the way, 33:23 Erin: so I can't be flattered. 33:26 Wes: That's right. You are as constant as the Northern Star, Constantly not doing impressions. 33:33 Erin: The other. Yeah. I never, ever give in. We all know it. This time I won't. All right, so everyone does shine. Everyone. Yes. Okay. So only one holds its place, and that's me. I am the still point of the turning world. 33:48 Wes: And in particular, others are movable because of fear. I think he says, again, they're apprehensive. 33:54 Erin: Men are flesh and blood and apprehensive. But I am not man. I am Caesar. 34:02 Wes: Anyway, yeah, so I feel a bit vindicated here that he's trying to portray an authoritarian person. Oh. 34:09 Erin: Oh, totally, totally. Yeah. I just met in that particular moment. I thought it was. I thought he was being kind of funny. 34:15 Wes: Yeah. 34:15 Erin: And I think that's even maybe self lampooning a little bit. I don't know. Maybe that's a bit too far. Okay. And then he gets stabbed. Didn't see that coming. What do we have to say about that? Nothing. 34:25 Wes: They all stab him. 32. 33. It's 33, right? Jesus's age. Shakespeare changes this to be the same number of stabs as Years in Jesus's life. 34:39 Erin: See, we know what side you're on. 34:41 Wes: And I think in Plutarch, he says, you, too, child. He refers to Caesar. Well, the story is that he calls Brutus child. And it's not et tu. It's not N U. It's just. I forget what it is. But anyway, et tu, Brute? Great. 34:57 Erin: So great. Then fall, Caesar, also great. Gives his own stage direction, 35:05 Wes: right? 35:06 Erin: He becomes the playwright. 35:07 Wes: I fall because I will. Exactly. Not because I've been stabbed. I will it. 35:13 Erin: Well, it's badass. It really is. Gotta give him credit. And Brutus is telling everybody else who's witnessing this, like, don't run away. This is going exactly according to plan. Ambition's debt is paid. We're not going to kill anybody else here. Because for some reason, I don't know, they look like absolute psychos. 35:29 Wes: What comes across in these scenes following the assassination is the naivete where, okay, everyone, calm down. Nothing bad's gonna happen. Of course, they've unleashed the dogs of war, as Antony will say. I always forgot that that line is in this play as opposed to, like, one of the British history plays. But anyway, yeah, they've unleashed hell on Rome, or, you know, but they naively think that by saying liberty and freedom and. And all that stuff that they're going to get a good reception. And they underestimate Mark Antony. 36:06 Erin: Of course, Brutus does, especially after the augmented line. My second favorite love to hate Brutus moment is, stoop, Roman, stoop. And let us bathe our hands in Caesar's blood up to the elbows and besmear our swords. Then walk we forth, even to the marketplace, and waving our red weapons o' er our heads, let's all cry peace, freedom and liberty. Absolutely insane. Like, Brutus is insane. 36:36 Wes: They sound like hippies thinking that their protest is going to go over well with people. 36:41 Erin: Yeah, and they're covered in blood in 36:44 Wes: the middle of the road or something. And, yeah, now everyone's going to be 36:47 Erin: on our side, right? 36:48 Wes: And then the great, you know, line by Cassius, how many ages hence shall this, our lofty scene, be acted over in states unborn and accents yet unknown? Brutus, how many times shall Caesar bleed in sport? And then Cassius will be called the men that gave their country liberty. So they're right that it's going to be remembered and used as material for 37:15 Erin: plays and podcasts yet unknown. 37:19 Wes: Podcasts yet unknown. But they're wrong about how it's going to be remembered and certainly about the liberty part. And then the next thing is really the introduction of Marc Antony, which is really. He's now introduced into the play by a servant. In a way, this is a more consequential moment than the stabbing itself. In a sense, dramatically. Maybe I'm overstating that, but Mark Antony, who's been largely absent, is now going to take on this huge. Is he the shoe that drops? 37:51 Erin: Yes, I think in a way you're right. In another way, I think if we're reading this play rather than seeing it, then of course Antony's entrance is going to be very. It's going to overshadow the one stage direction we get, which is he dies. But of course, we have to imagine this is very dramatically done. 38:08 Wes: Conceivably, everything could have ended here. He's dead and that's it. Nothing else happens after that. But Mark Antony sets us up for he is now the main actor. He's gonna produce all the action that follows. 38:24 Erin: Yeah, there's something more to come here. 38:27 Wes: Yeah. So he's the catalyst or the igniting fuel for the rest of the play. 38:33 Erin: Yeah. And we get this really interesting proxy for Antony and his servant because Antony's smart enough to send somebody just in case they have it in for him too. And in fact, they should have. We get the list of the four adjectives which are really interesting. Brutus is noble, wise, valiant and honest. Caesar was mighty, bold, royal and loving. I really like those. The contrast between those two things, those two sets. 38:59 Wes: I should say those two sets of adjectives are right. They point to the different aspects of character that Caesar. They're self concepts. It's Caesar's might and fearlessness and courageousness. Right. Bold, fearless. That's the thing he prides himself on. And that's the thing which his authority is supposedly derived from. And for Brutus, it's honor, virtue. 39:21 Erin: And then we get. Say I love Brutus and I honor him. Say I feared Caesar, honored him and loved him. So there's an interesting. 39:31 Wes: Yeah, so why does he need to introduce the fear with Caesar? And then honor and love are reversed. Right. Loves Brutus, honors him, but honors Caesar, loves him. And then also we add fear, the 39:47 Erin: chiasmus, sort of chiasmus. Because there's, as you say, this extra thing added in, creates the sort of love sandwich here. So we begin and end with love. But it's first and therefore for secondary in the Brutus list and primary in the Caesar list, taking the last place. 40:07 Wes: Yeah. The fear seems to suggest that he didn't necessarily. Wasn't on board with everything. Caesar was doing, but was going along with it out of fear. And by implication, by leaving out the fear of them, he's suggesting he doesn't actually fear them when he. Of course he does. And he should. And he does because he sent the servant and he should. 40:29 Erin: And of course they don't want. I mean, Brutus. This is designed to appeal to Brutus. He's also emphasizing the power vacuum that's now been created, which of course Brutus cannot fill. So he's not going to fear Brutus as an emperor in the absence of Caesar. Yeah, it's designed to appeal to Brutus in a couple of different ways. Acknowledging that there's no longer anyone left to fear because Brutus is. Has restored the leaderlessness or something of Rome. Yeah. And then basically Antony wants to make sure that it's safe for him to come out and play. And Brutus assures him that it is by saying to the servant, thy master is a wise and valiant Roman. Which I love because it repeats two words that Antony used for Brutus rather than the two words two of the four he used for Caesar. Tell him so please him, come unto this place, he shall be satisfied and by my honor depart untouched. And that's when Antony really knows that he's going to be okay because Brutus has attached this to his honor and therefore we'll leave him untouched. 41:34 Wes: Cassius is still skeptical. He still fears him. And he thinks his fear is probably going to be borne out in the consequences. My misgiving still falls truly to the purpose. And yeah, this is another, what turns out to be another one of Brutus mistakes. Well, he's already rejected Cassius's suggestion that they kill him during the. During their conspirators meeting. He's not going to do it now. Cassius is worried about it. Rightly so. 42:02 Erin: What I love is that Cassius repeats of Antony a sort of scrambled version of what Caesar says of Cassius. Cassius says, I wish we may, but yet I have a mind that fears him much. And my misgiving still falls shrewdly to the purpose of Cassius. Caesar says, but I fear him not. Yet if my name were liable to fear, I do not know the man I should avoid so soon as that spare Cassius, the use of yet there and much and fear. 42:34 Wes: Interesting. Yeah. Caesar fears Cassius, Cassius fears Antony. Antony fears Caesar. It's a fool feared. All right, then I am afraid we have to end there. That is part four of our 30 part series on Julius Caesar. No, hopefully we'll just do two more 42:54 Erin: parts yes, we are gonna have to. 42:58 Wes: We can do what we want. The audience is gonna have to. 43:00 Erin: If we will it, then, right. Anything's possible. 43:04 Wes: Now, we can't force people to listen. 43:06 Erin: That's right. 43:07 Wes: If we were Caesar, we could, but. All right. So thank you, thank you, 43:17 Erin: and thanks to everyone who listened. 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