The Evil of Banality in “Rosemary’s Baby” (1968) – Part 2

Wes & Erin continue their discussion of Roman Polanski’s 1968 classic, and why it is that Satanic evil, when confronted with life’s very frightening realities—including pregnancy itself—turns out to be so banal. Upcoming Episodes: Yeats: “Sailing to Byzantium,” “Leda and the Swan,” “An Indian to His Love.” Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. This podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit AirwaveMedia.com to listen and subscribe to other Airwave shows like Good Job, Brain and Big Picture Science. Email [email protected] to enquire about advertising on the podcast. Follow: Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:19 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. 0:32 Wes: Welcome to part two of our discussion of Rosemary. I was just asking Erin whether if she remembers on first watching, it was clear to her that this was not in Rosemary's head, that this was all real all along. 0:46 Erin: Yeah, I remember going back and forth because a book like all of Them Witches. Okay, that's a ridiculous title. It all comes down to an anagram. It's the kind of thing that you start. You start taking orders from your dog, you know, it's indicative of a kind of mental breakdown. And then there are scenes like when, like at the party, the under 60 party, just Rosemary looks so awful. I find those scenes to be extremely like, actually, those are the most upsetting scenes in the film for me to see how bad she looks. And the friends are like, this is crazy. You know, you've been having this pain since November, you know, that is really powerful. And of course, you know, we haven't even gotten to sort of the. Whether or not the whole film is just a parable of what happens to women in pregnancy and the ways in which women are just told to accept certain things by people who supposedly know better or their feelings are dismissed, their symptoms are dismissed. Yeah. So that's a powerful moment for me. Women tell her, like, this is not normal, you know, after she's been told not to talk to other women. It's so insidious. It's so. Yeah, I went back and forth first time I saw it. I remember not. Not really knowing. It's very, very clear the second time around that she's crazy. 2:05 Wes: She even says, this is not a dream. This is really happening. 2:08 Erin: I was just gonna say, yeah, that just makes sense. Silliest moment. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 2:15 Wes: Then you think, well, wait a minute, if she's saying that, then it can't be real. 2:19 Erin: Right. 2:20 Wes: So very expertly done then. Yeah, I think, keeping us in doubt and. Cause really the ending, I think, is kind of punchline to a setup for a joke. The whole movie is one big setup to a really funny and well delivered punchline, which is what that scene is in the end when she wanders into the. 2:40 Erin: You're going like this with the knife. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're doing that. 2:46 Wes: Right, right, yeah. 2:48 Erin: Rosemary handhold. 2:49 Wes: Yeah, she's got the knife. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of tip offs to. To the fact that this is real. But of course, to anyone else, and perhaps to us, you know, in a first viewing of the film, she seems like there's a good chance she's just someone having a paranoid episode, but she's really Being gaslighted, man, I knew you 3:07 Erin: were going to say this word and I was going to, I was going to tease you and be like, what other word works here? 3:17 Wes: So that really is gaslighting, right? 3:20 Erin: It really is. 3:22 Wes: Yeah. But disagreeing with someone's not gaslighting me. Stop gaslighting me. You're making me feel crazy for being disagreed with. Anyway, that's all very passe now. Culture war stuff. Who cares about that when the world is ending? 3:42 Erin: But you mentioned too, at the end of the last part about. About the fact that they were going to go with a different type from Mia Farrow. And I think we should talk about that and about the significance. I'm still trying to work it out. The significance of the haircut besides the fact that it's in the book. I looked at it as in the book that she gets that cut and she had it in real life. The idea that they initially wanted to go with someone more full figured. And also the fact that that Burton Taylor joke happens at the beginning of the film. You know, there's this image of motherhood and fecundity that's associated with a type like Elizabeth Taylor or like one of the women that they wanted to cast in this part. And instead they go with Mia Farrow, who then. Who looks, you know, awful for a good portion of the film. And I don't know if that haircut is just about making her look more skeletal and sicker or what. I don't know if you have a read on that. 4:34 Wes: This is not long after they learn that they're gonna have the baby. How does she tell him? 4:40 Erin: She hands him something. I didn't get that. 4:42 Wes: She gives him a quarter because they bet a quarter earlier. Oh, what did they bet a quarter on, though? So giving him a quarter signifies that she lost that bet. And then maybe the bet was about getting pregnant. 4:56 Erin: Okay, I couldn't even tell that it was a quarter. It looked strange to me. I don't know. 5:01 Wes: Okay. Anyway, and then right after getting that news, she complains about him not being opened and he admits he's self centered, but then he does a very self centered thing and leaves off kissing her and celebrating with her because he's got to go tell the Castevets. So I got to tell my friends about this. And then brings him down to celebrate. And then it's after that point she spontaneously puts on the amulet and gets her first drink from Minnie, gets that drink prescription. And it's then that after that that she comes home to him practicing lines and she has that. She has short hair. And how does he. How does he say, you know, he says, don't tell me. Don't tell me. You paid for that. And then she goes right into having pain. I think Hutch. Right. Hutch reacts to her hair as well. 5:50 Erin: Does he or does he? It seems to me that other than Guy, everyone is reacting to how bad she looks in terms of her coloring and the lost weight. 6:00 Wes: Right. So, yeah, I'm getting this mixed up. Hutch says, my God, when he sees her, and she says, it's Vidal Sassoon. He's not talking about the hair. He's talking about how she looks. 6:11 Erin: But the hair increases before that. 6:13 Wes: Before that, someone says that it's the haircut that looks awful. 6:17 Erin: That's Guy. Guy says that. 6:19 Wes: Okay. 6:19 Erin: He says, you look fine except for the hair. Because he's trying. Happening to her as normal. 6:23 Wes: Yeah. It sets up this interesting binary between. Does she look bad because of the hair? Does she look bad because she's sick? You know, I guess we have. We might also take that haircut as a way of. As kind of a weak attempt at asserting independence from the patriarchy, from Guy. She's doing. 6:45 Erin: She's doing a modern Guy's Everywhere thing, 6:48 Wes: the 60s version of a modern woman. 6:49 Erin: She actually looks. I mean, if anybody could pull off this haircut, obviously, it's. It's Mia Farrow and Twiggy. But it seems to me to be a rejection of femininity at a time when she should be feeling. I mean, she doesn't have to feel anyway. Far be it from me to tell her how to feel. That's what everybody else is doing, but. Right, but in which one typically feels at their most feminine or could feel that way. Obviously, the vast spectrum of experiences of pregnancy complicates this because some women are just sick their entire pregnancy, you know, and they never feel great and they don't get the glow that's promised to them. But at least in the cultural consciousness. Right. It's associated with this increased. This idea of increased femininity and of sort of like being at the apex of one's female potential. 7:34 Wes: Interesting. Yeah. Because to reject that. That's one form of rejecting character. In a way, to have less hair is to have less character. It's to transcend that pigeonholing into one role or form of character or another. 7:50 Erin: Oh, I see. Oh, I see. 7:51 Wes: And if you have no hair, you can just put on a wig and be an actor. So it pushes her in that direction. That's interesting, because he is Practicing lines when she comes home to him. But, yeah, she opens up her identity a little bit. It's more fluid at that point. It's more capable of taking on new forms. 8:12 Erin: Yeah, that's great. And so in that way, it's better than. Because, again, I went back to the Burton Taylor thing, and if they wanted a more full figured woman, a woman who's more indicative of this kind of fertility, this. You know, I mean, I think of Liz Taylor as being like this, like, pagan goddess of femininity. 8:30 Wes: If it were Liz Taylor, she'd be leading the cult by the second act. 8:34 Erin: Oh, yeah. Of course. They'd be worshiping her. 8:39 Wes: Yeah. 8:40 Erin: But, yeah, so I like this idea that. Yeah, that. That's actually too limiting. That makes sense. It's satisfying to me. 8:47 Wes: You know, if she is trying to escape, you could see that as this kind of Satanist impulse. So it's no accident that she's had her first drink, maybe, and she's started to get sick. It's the right. The pain that starts right after the drink, right after the haircut. 9:06 Erin: Is there anything we can make of the tannis root and of the fungal here besides the fact that her husband is a really fun guy? No. You thought there was a bigger payoff, you said. 9:19 Wes: Yeah, when I saw. Watching this for the second time, I expected a bigger payoff for the tannis thing. I just thought based on a fuzzy memory of the first viewing. But, yeah, not much is said. Right. Except that it's kind of a fungal. A fungal witch thing. 9:36 Erin: Thinking through it now. Okay, so the woman who was in the apartment before them, whose name is Mrs. Gardenia. I guess you can only be named after plants if you live in that 9:44 Wes: apartment and have so many herbs that you're. 9:48 Erin: Yes, yes, I thought quite a bit about that after, because I thought there's so many great things that happen just in that first scene, as you already pointed out, we learn that she fell into a coma. 9:58 Wes: Right. 9:58 Erin: Rosemary, we learn, is a bit superstitious. And I see this as being, again, the sort of vestiges of Catholicism, you know? Did she die in the apartment? Not that it matters. You know, I'm not superstitious, I swear. You know, and we learn that she was in a coma for several months before passing away, which is exactly what happens to Hutch. And that moving the secretary in front of the closet, like, was there a falling out? Was she actually part of the cult or was she discarded? But the idea of the place, of the building itself being a character and of this is something I'm very, very interested in this idea of landscape or of space. Could be this building. It could be whatever. Whatever has transpired in the long history of a place leaves its scars on that place. And I think that this is maybe related to this idea of the fungal infection that the whole house seems to have. So they're all. They're all part of the coven. And the apartment itself will get. It's connected ultimately. Right. It's connected to the apartment from which it was initially broken off from when they made the apartments smaller. I can't imagine what that apartment looked like. The idea of the fungus that's kind of like growing underneath the floorboards or the thing that's behind the wall. Right. The silent killer, you know, mold, fungus, whatever you want to call it. Right. That seems to be as much a part of the building itself, of which the coven are almost like this outgrowth or this flowering of what's inside the walls. Right. As it is there, because the people are there. So it's a sort of chicken and egg scenario. You know, there's a reading of the film in which the building just bad or something. Right. It's, you know, the basement being a scary place. I don't know. And much is made of basements, actually. There's even a basement in the ship that she goes on in her dream where she gets impregnated. Right. She goes below deck. So something about structure and the structure of the unconscious and all that, which is being paralleled here. 12:06 Wes: Yeah. I mean, what is the theory here about how this is supposed to work? 12:10 Erin: That it drugs her and makes her, therefore, more willing to be manipulated? 12:14 Wes: Is that. 12:15 Erin: Is that all. 12:15 Wes: That's the idea. 12:16 Erin: Yeah. That she's just kind of out of it all the time? 12:19 Wes: I guess so. I mean, I. You know, how do you. Yeah. How do you get pregnant with Satan? I guess Satan himself is the one who has sex with her, Right? 12:28 Erin: Well, no, it's. Is it John Cassavetes in Satan makeup? Those eyes. 12:33 Wes: Yeah. It seems to be some sort of hybrid of. It looks like it's him. And then you see. So, yeah, you get the idea that he's been somehow possessed by Satan. 12:43 Erin: Yeah. 12:44 Wes: And then is having sex with her as Satan with the nasty hands. Pause. Scratch. Scratching her. And then I think I always vaguely thought, well, I guess the drink and the tannis root and all that stuff. Is there tannis root in the drink as well? 12:59 Erin: I assume there is. 13:00 Wes: Right. 13:00 Erin: And then Minnie confirms it. 13:02 Wes: It's very important she get that drink. And I. And it's making her sick. But it seems like there's something more to it. Like, okay, well, yeah, if you're gonna have Satan's kid, you gotta have some tanis root. You gotta. It's the, it's the Satanist version of vitamin pills. But even more important. 13:20 Erin: Mm. Well, what you're making me realize is, okay, so if Satan himself, he needs a physical conduit to come into the world. So instead of somehow incarnating, he has, he himself needs a host. So Guy is pregnant with the devil before Rosemary is. There's also, of course, a parody of everything is just parodic attached to the fungus on Catholicism, if you will. You know, so instead of the angel appearing to Mary and asking her, you know, and her giving her assent so that its consent is received, you know, of course, like the Antichrist would have to be conceived through a rape. The pregnancy would have to be, you know, Mary, because she's the immaculate conception, has no pain in delivery and presumably, of course in pregnancy, because these are the wages of original sin. Pain is wage of original sin. And so because Mary is the immaculate conception, she has a pain free pregnancy and delivery. Or at least that's the logic. And rather than the Holy Spirit being the thing that impregnates her, it's what, it's an actor that's the opposite of the Holy Spirit. 14:34 Wes: Happens to be her husband as well. 14:36 Erin: Happens to be her husband. Right, right. Yeah, but the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. So there's this three in one thing. There's this. I don't know, I'm not gonna be able to get there. I'm trying to think through it, but his part of the equation, I mean, what I wanted to say early on, and I'll come back to this, it's just that, you know, what's so interesting and sneaky about this movie is that Guy is really the main character. You know, I mean, it's all his doing. I mean, if this were a different film, it would just be a Faust story and he would be Faust. He would be the title character. So he's the one that's making all of this happen. It's with his assent that she gets pregnant. Yeah. And his sort of demonic possession preempts Rosemary's own demonic pregnancy. 15:23 Wes: There's a whole other version of this where you could lift everything that's in background into the foreground and then put what's in foreground into the background and it would be just as compelling. It would be the Faust story if, you know, we would learn of how it is that Minnie and Roman seduced him or whatever, how they got him to make this bargain. We would learn more about what's going on for him psychologically, such that he's so vulnerable to this. So we would see him get corrupted and then I guess, presumably we would see him suffer for his choice. Right. 16:00 Erin: Well, instead there's literally a blank space. Remember when she's in the kitchen washing dishes with Minnie and they look into the room and you just see the smoke because they're out of frame. So you just see the empty room with smoke coming from there, cigarettes. So of course that's, you know, that's the Faustian moment. Right. But they're not in the frame. It's like the shot of the. They're around the corner. So you just see the empty room of smoke. 16:25 Wes: I see. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't think of that. That's very cool. 16:30 Erin: Yeah. But I mean, you know, so the film is obviously, I mean, by making her the subject, I mean, this is its brilliance and this is also, you know, I wouldn't wish the film to be about Guy because that would be quite boring. And part of the reason why she is the subject is because of the feminist themes in the film. Yeah. So then it becomes a parable about this unsuspecting woman who. Around whom all these men exert control. Not exclusively men, but. Right. Older people, people in positions of authority and men exert control over her. 17:01 Wes: She is very passive and it does seem guilt ridden. Right. It does seem connected to her Catholicism. She's guilty and self effacing and self doubting and so can be pushed around in this way. 17:15 Erin: Well, I mean, the worst instance of this is her getting scratched up and it's just dropped that he raped her. She just can't even. I mean that, that is just unbelievable to me. I don't know. It's believable. 17:32 Wes: But yeah, yeah, no, I had the same. I had the same reaction. I think it played differently back then, but. 17:37 Erin: Oof. God. And then I. I don't think so. 17:41 Wes: I think notes I started to put by contemporary standards. Rape. I started. 17:47 Erin: No, no, no. 17:48 Wes: And then I thought. And then I stopped myself because I felt. I felt too guilty about even writing. Writing that. But no, I do think it. I. I think the scratches. It plays more. And it plays more ambiguously. But yeah, assume it's disturbing in 68 as well. But I think it's more potent today. 18:10 Erin: Yeah, yeah. It's set in 65 and then they have New Year's and it's 66, which I was like, okay, it's six, six, and then an upside down six with the nine. So they had to do it that way. And then he says, oh, the year one, Roman announces at the party. And I was like, that's right. 18:31 Wes: But, yeah, so it's believable that. Right, it's believable that she could be raped while she's passed out and then not give more than kind of a tepid objection to it. She objects. 18:42 Erin: And she's disturbed. 18:44 Wes: And she's disturbed. But it's. It's. Yeah, she doesn't feel like she has the right to. 18:50 Erin: Yeah, that's. I think one of the things that's so disturbing about this is that he is, like, treating her like a broodmare, you know, and he is the one who's aware of what's going on in her body more so than she is at all times in the film. 19:03 Wes: Right. 19:04 Erin: He knows more about what's happening inside her than she does. 19:07 Wes: So he could always say, but, honey, it was the devil who raped you. Sorry, it wasn't me. It was the devil. 19:14 Erin: Right, Exactly. Exactly. That's the get out of jail free card. 19:20 Wes: The devil made me do it. No, the devil did in through me. 19:24 Erin: All of them devils, they made me do it. 19:27 Wes: So I think in that sense, yeah, she's a good target for the cult. She's vulnerable. But Guy is also a good target. Right. It's trickier to take down a couple than to take down, like, someone like Terry. 19:39 Erin: Yes. 19:40 Wes: Someone who's a dope fiend or an ex dope fiend. He has to be picked up off the sidewalk and then groomed. And that seems like a simpler project in a way than trying to get a couple. 19:53 Erin: And yet she puts up a fight, but she actually has a little bit more agency than Rosemary. 20:02 Wes: True. 20:03 Erin: Yeah. 20:03 Wes: But, you know. Yeah. Guy's vulnerability, of course, is his ambition. And so, you know, you get the Faustian theme as a way to. As a kind of entry point for Minnie and Roman are a vulnerability that they can take advantage of. 20:17 Erin: This is right after she's eaten the mousse, which I did notice that they have different. The tops of their two cups of mousse are different, I guess to clue Guy into which one he should give to her. He yells at her for not wanting to eat it because she doesn't like the undertaste. And he says, there's always something wrong, you know, and then. Anyway, then they're watching the Pope on tv, or he is, and he says, it's the Pope at Yankee Stadium. And then he mentions, that's a great spot for my Yamaha commercial. So it's like. It's this wonderful moment where, you know, religion is just in service of his career, you know, which is that. That's just the encapsulation of his whole. His whole character is just putting any religious impulse he might have just simply in terms of what he can get out of it, in terms of fame and notoriety or whatever. 21:11 Wes: Right. She doesn't eat most of the mousse. Right. 21:14 Erin: Which is maybe why she waits. 21:16 Wes: Napkin. Oh, right. She's not fully. Yeah. When did undertaste become aftertaste? 21:22 Erin: I don't know. I know. She says it so many times. 21:24 Wes: Undertaste is not a thing anymore. 21:26 Erin: Yeah, yeah. It's related to the house, the basement, the fungus, the. Yeah, it's underneath. It's not after. It's under. 21:36 Wes: Right. 21:36 Erin: And it's chalky. And then she's. Someone says she looks like a piece of chalk, so. 21:40 Wes: Right. 21:41 Erin: She's all fungal. 21:42 Wes: Gross. 21:44 Erin: Yeah. So what about Hutch? We have. 21:47 Wes: I was saying the same sentence in my mind. Sorry. 21:50 Erin: There you go. We have a man of this older generation, and he writes boys adventure stories. Is that right? 22:00 Wes: Oh, is that what he does? Okay. 22:01 Erin: Oh, where did I get that? 22:03 Wes: It's when Guy is casting aspersions on him, he uses that. Right. 22:08 Erin: Yeah. Oh, those boys adventure stories are going to his head. That's what he says. 22:14 Wes: Is he reading the stories or is he writing the stories? Yeah. In any case. Yeah. He's. Well, so he's a mentor figure. He stands in stark contrast. Right. So ideally, that's what the older generation is. It's. It stands in a role of mentorship to the young people. And so Minnie and Roman are more sinister variations on that. I guess it must be Rosemary who has the primary relationship with Hutch. And I guess we don't know what the history of that is. 22:47 Erin: Is he their current landlord? So maybe he doesn't need an occupation. Maybe he's just a landlord who sits around reading these adventure stories. Or maybe he doesn't at all. And Guy is just being mean. 22:58 Wes: Well, where do we first meet him? He's getting dinner. I guess it's after they decide to take the apartment. It's about, like, seven minutes into the movie. They decide to take the apartment, and then suddenly they're with Hutch. 23:10 Erin: Yes. 23:10 Wes: I think that's their first introduction to him. And he's taking chicken out of the oven. 23:14 Erin: Lamb. It's lamb. 23:16 Wes: Lamb. Oh, well, there you go. 23:17 Erin: Yeah, that's how I know. 23:23 Wes: And what does he say? I think. Does he say, I was tempted to write the management? That you were drug addicts and litter bugs. Instead, I tried to lie and tell them you are wonderful tenants. Okay, so he's the landlord. Why are they leaving this landlord and mentor figure that they get along so well with? I suppose it's. They're planning on having children and they need more space. 23:45 Erin: Just before this, when they're still in the apartment, he says, I could walk to all the theaters from here. That's kind of ironic, because then he gets a part where he's on crutches anyway. He can limp to all the theaters. I'm just kidding. So maybe they want to have a baby. They want to be in a bigger place. They think it's time to upgrade. You took guy's lack of success or discontent as being a monetary thing. I didn't. The guy who's showing them the Bramford says, oh, that's where the money is. And he says, yeah, and the artistic thrills, too, or something like that. Yeah. 24:18 Wes: No, I was thinking of him as. 24:21 Erin: You weren't sure. Okay. 24:22 Wes: Yeah. Having ambition. Someone who has artistic ambitions, but in a way has sold out with the commercials. 24:30 Erin: Yes. Yeah. 24:31 Wes: Has not gotten rich by selling out. 24:34 Erin: Okay, he's not rich. But they're comfortable, I thought, and able 24:38 Wes: to upgrade enough to get a tiny, tiny apartment in the Dakota building. 24:46 Erin: It's just the back six or whatever the hell. 24:49 Wes: It's one tenth of what the original 24:50 Erin: apartment was back four. They live upstairs from Lauren Bacall and downstairs from John Lennon. Anyway. Yeah. And does he not want to move? He's not sold on it. She seems to be. You know, she's kind of nesting. When they move in, they really transform it. I mean, they paint it white. They. You know, there's a nursery that they assemble when she gets pregnant. So, you know. But she's kind of already doing that before she gets pregnant. So it seems to me that it's. This is the. We're gonna start a family apartment. The other one was the starter apartment, and there has to be enough money to do that. But he doesn't want to move. I thought he's the one who's actually wary about moving, which seems to me to be about how he wants to just, yeah. Do his thing and not have a baby and all that. And I think that maybe what I wanted to say about his potential jealousy of her in part one was related to this idea that, you know, he's an actor, but she Seems to be the likable one. Like, she's the one who has the relationships. She's the one who has the friends. She's the one who's friends with Hutch. He isn't. There's something about him that maybe is related to this idea that he's not a good actor. It's just that he's. I mean, he seems charming enough at the beginning, but, like, he's kind. He has that under. Undertaste of being a bit of a jerk and an arrogant guy who people just don't take to. And that seems to me to be connected to his bad acting. 26:12 Wes: Yeah. Who's at the party? I mean, they have a party with a bunch of people. Is it all her people? 26:17 Erin: It seems like it. 26:18 Wes: It's her party. Yeah. 26:20 Erin: Yeah. She's the one who has the guest list all set up, and he wants to invite the older couple, so he's not so interested in their friends. He's not attached to that like he can. In accepting this Faustian bargain, it seems he has very little to lose socially. Like, he could just discard people and get with this older couple, whereas she's the one who seems to have the ties, you know, so they come as a unit, but they're really friends with the wife because he's insufferable, you know, that seems. Seems part of this. 26:51 Wes: Yeah. So I think you're right. He's reluctant to move. She's enthusiastic about the apartment. He's worrying about the rent and stuff like that. She has to plea with him. Please, can we take it? You know, Guy, let's take it. Please. And he's pretty. You know, it's not like he's hard to convince or something like that, but you get some sense that it's really her desire that's driving them forward at this point. And, yeah, I think you're right. He. He would be more static if it weren't for her. So I guess. Yeah. So. So he. He's gonna find some. Some real mentorship. When he. When he moves into this new building, he falls in love with these. These old people who initially, I think he thinks they're kind of. They're gonna be a drag, right? 27:35 Erin: Oh, yes. 27:36 Wes: She's the one who agrees to have dinner with them, and he's not happy about that, though. 27:41 Erin: Then it immediately switches, and she's quite wary of them for a long time. You know, she doesn't like the fact that they're actually too nice. She sees that there's something insidious about their Generosity. 27:50 Wes: And then Guy. It's almost like an affair. I mean, Guy becomes more preoccupied with them. 27:56 Erin: Yeah. I find it very, very odd that he runs over to tell them without her when. When she's pregnant. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That he runs over and doesn't. Like, he doesn't call them over. And, you know, of course, it makes sense in hindsight that he has to go tell them, hey, our plan worked, you know. 28:12 Wes: Yeah. 28:13 Erin: Don't look too eager when you come over, because this is really for your benefit. Right. So of course he has to do that. But it's. But there's also the oddity of running over. Yeah. Like, as if to tell the mistress that the wife is pregnant or something. I don't know. That doesn't make any sense. But you know what I mean? Like, there's something about it. 28:31 Wes: Yeah. He's more excited, keeps her out with them than with her. 28:35 Erin: Right. 28:36 Wes: And then he goes and gets them and brings them back and they bring wine or champagne or something. 28:40 Erin: Right. That's the thing that is good for her, apparently, not the tannis root. As a pregnant lady, she's drinking her 28:48 Wes: daily martinis like they're in the middle of a kiss. And he cuts that short because he can't wait to tell them about the new baby. So in a way, he's more having it with them than with her. 29:02 Erin: Yeah. I guess the possession makes it work. So it's not really cuckoldry, but he is the, say, the Joseph in this unholy family. Right. And so. And so that doesn't seem to bother. You know, it's strange that that doesn't bother him because he is having the baby with Minnie and Roman, but also she's kind of having the baby a little bit without him. Psychologically, this doesn't seem to be an issue for him in the way that we would think that it would. He's getting so much out of this that I guess it doesn't matter to him. And it seems to me that he's, you know, the reason why he's so close with them is because of the transactional nature of this. Right. Like, he's not getting anything out of Hutch or any of any of Rosemary's friends. And so for him, relationships are transactional. But it's just strange that there is an element of cuckoldry here that isn't really ever dealt with. 29:57 Wes: Psychologically, he turns out to be very disconnected in a way. I'm just thinking of the party at the end. So what does he say to her? They promised me you wouldn't. So Guy comes over to her and he says, would you like a drink? And she asked for a Coca Cola. Is that right? He says, they promised me you wouldn't be hurt. And you haven't been really. Which is just a absurd, terrible thing to say. I mean, supposing you had. Had the baby and lost it, Wouldn't that be the same? And we're getting so much in return. And then she spits at him. 30:32 Erin: I think, yes. Yeah, yeah. 30:34 Wes: You would think if this were. If this were it, if he were just in it for the successful career, he wouldn't need to be at this party. Right. He wouldn't need to be a full fledged member of the cult necessarily. He was just making a deal to get them a baby. But he does seem to be a member as well. But I just was associating to that from this kind of disconnection he has. We don't ever get some strong sense of his burning ambition to succeed as an actor. We get little hints like, I'm off to be famous or whatever. But he, like the other Satanists, don't come across as tortured. Again, in the beginning of the movie, the conflict is conveyed subtly, the conflict between him and Rosemary and whatever inner conflict or turmoil is happening with him. But he seems kind of like a good guy in the beginning of the movie. And yet, on the other hand, it doesn't come as some huge shock that he's shallow enough to have done that. I think maybe that's the way to. There's kind of a banality of evil element here. He does what he does out of shallowness, not out of angst or nefariousness. He's ultimately very disconnected from her, obviously, in her well being. 31:58 Erin: Yeah. But the performance, like the performance that he gives to her is a masterful one. And so that complicates it, of course, but. Yeah, but I love that idea that. Yeah. That it's just pure shallowness which indicates itself that. I don't know. Is there an argument to be made here that truly great actors actually can't be shallow? Maybe there's an argument that shallowness helps in some way, but you know that you need to have some depth to get the part on your own terms. And it's the shallow that have to blind their competition. 32:34 Wes: Did you see the sequel called look at what Happened to Rosemary's Baby, also known as Rosemary's Baby Part two? 32:44 Erin: Part two, the Toddler Years. 32:46 Wes: Made for television. Masterpiece. 32:51 Erin: No, I have not seen it. I'm interested in that apartment 7Amaybe that the prequel with Terry. Yeah, that sounds like it's the only thing that has a moderate IMDb rating, if I had to guess. 33:03 Wes: But Ruth Gordon is in this and this. Look at. Look at what happened to Rosemary's Baby. 33:09 Erin: Oh, shoot. Look at what happened to Ruth Gordon. That's what you know, you get a resurgence. You get Harold and Maude and then they just cast you in TV sequels. 33:18 Wes: It's got 11% on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah. It's all about little Satan trying to trials and trying to go to a New York fancy New York school, get educated enough so he can go to Harvard and. 33:36 Erin: I've seen this movie. 33:38 Wes: Yeah, become president. 33:41 Erin: Exactly. 33:44 Wes: The would be am just looking at Wikipedia. The would be Antichrist finds himself constantly manipulated by members of his family and by a newfound love interest. 33:55 Erin: Oh no. Is he torn. 33:56 Wes: What's the point of being the Antichrist if you're just gonna get bullied by everybody? Everyone. 34:02 Erin: That is so funny. Oh my gosh. 34:06 Wes: There's no amount of divinity or anti divinity which is going to make adolescence any better. 34:12 Erin: Well, maybe the problem is that he's only half and half. Right. Because he's half Rosemary and half Satan. 34:19 Wes: Or is he thirds? Is he part guy, part Rosemary? How does it work? 34:24 Erin: There we go. 34:26 Wes: Or no, I would. 25% guy. 25% Satan, half Rosemary. 34:30 Erin: That's right. Well, 25% makeup and then. 34:34 Wes: Yeah, so if you're 25% Satan, God, it just seems like it's. You got all the drawbacks and none of the power. 34:43 Erin: That's right. That's right. 34:46 Wes: Over the 20 years later, an adult Adrian and his best friend Peter are detained by police for speeding. 34:52 Erin: Peter, of course he has a best friend. Peter 34:58 Wes: detained for speeding, confronted by his aunt over his reckless behavior. This is just. It's hilarious. 35:05 Erin: Oh God. 35:08 Wes: It's not easy being Satan. 35:09 Erin: Behave yourself, baby. Satan. 35:11 Wes: It's not easy being young Satan. 35:13 Erin: And what's Ruth Gordon doing? Just sending him checks for his birthday or what? 35:19 Wes: Bringing him mousse. Yeah, mousse. And drinks. Later that night, Roman and Minnie arrive at the casino pretending to be Adrian's aunt and uncle. Minnie drugs Adrian into unconsciousness and dresses him up in a costume and devil makeup. 35:37 Erin: How are they still alive? Wasn't Roman 79 and had terminal cancer? Yeah, we never talked about that. Is that true? And why did they leave? But they don't leave. 35:48 Wes: No, cancer's cancer is faked. And they. They're feigning leaving because Rosemary insists that they cut off contact with them. 35:58 Erin: Right, okay. 35:59 Wes: Because she's spooked. 36:00 Erin: I knew that. 36:00 Wes: And then Saperstein comes up with this plan. Okay, so Ralph Bellamy. I just. I kind of thought he was kind of unrecognizable as Saperstein, but maybe I'm not used to seeing him old, but. 36:13 Erin: Yeah, there's that other movie that he's in that I have his old face in my head from. What is it? I'm looking it up. Right. Trading Places. 36:20 Wes: Oh, right. 36:21 Erin: Cause he's the villain and. 36:22 Wes: Yeah, great movie. 36:23 Erin: Yeah. Yeah. He's good at playing either the dumb, innocent hick or the most evil person in the history of the world. 36:32 Wes: Yeah. Yeah. As a hick, he is so dumb and sweet. Sweet and innocent. 36:37 Erin: Sort of. There's an insidious quality there. I still think more so in the Awful Truth, but. 36:43 Wes: Yeah, More so in what? 36:45 Erin: In the Awful Truth than in his Girl Friday. But there is something. There's some. Some undercurrent there that they pick up on later. Same thing happened with Jimmy Stewart. You know, there was always like an undercurrent of something. And then he comes back from the war, and then he's doing Anatomy of a Murder and Rope and, you know, various things where he's playing a. Either a straight up villain or someone who's compromised because there's, like, this undertaste. I'd call it chalky undertaste. 37:12 Wes: All right, thank you. 37:13 Erin: Thank you, and thanks to everyone who listened. For an easy way to do that, go to subtextpodcast.com patreon.com subtextpodcast Please send your questions, feedback, and episode requests to [email protected] if we get enough questions, we'll do some bonus Q and A shows for subscribers. You can also find us on Facebook subtextpodcast and on Twitter enjoysubtext.