The Founding Contradiction

Hey there, Shankar here. One lesson that 2020 has taught us over and over again is that it's very hard to predict the future. We don't know what will happen tomorrow, much less what the world will look like in a month or a year from now. But one thing we can do is to use the past to try to understand the present.

We've been thinking a lot in recent weeks about a conversation I had a while ago with historian Annette Gordon-Reed. Annette studies the life of Thomas Jefferson and the enslaved people who lived on his plantation. Thomas Jefferson, of course, is the founding father who wrote the phrase all men are created equal in the Declaration of Independence. The gulf between his professed values and his behavior is rich psychological terrain.

It also reveals something about the gap between our own professed values and our actions today. Here's the show. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. All nations are built on stories.

They're stories about ideals. The values around which people stake their identity. Often these stories contain contradictions. Some so profound that most of us simply look the other way.

The United States has its own set of founding myths and its own set of contradictions. One of the most striking unfolded in 1776 at a house on the southwest corner of seventh and market streets in Philadelphia. That summer, 33-year-old Thomas Jefferson rented rooms at this house. While he was there, he wrote the document that would formalize America's split from Britain, the Declaration of Independence.

It says, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and the pursuit of happiness. And yet, even as he was writing these inspiring words, that to secure these rights, Jefferson was attended on by a slave. He was a 14-year-old boy named Robert Hemings. Jefferson, in fact, owned hundreds of slaves.

He fathered six children with an enslaved woman. Today, we take a deep dive into history as a window into psychology. We look closely at the life and beliefs of a man who shaped the modern United States and ask how his complexities and contradictions have echoes in our own lives. How our minds justify our choices this week on Hidden Brain.

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Live every day. Thomas Jefferson is remembered as a founding father of the United States. But historian, Ened Gordon Reed, looks at his life beyond the writing of the Declaration of Independence. She and her co-author Peter Onuf, explore Jefferson's inner life in their book, Most Blessed of the Patriarchs, Thomas Jefferson and the Empire of the Imagination.

Ened, welcome to Hidden Brain. Glad to be here. Thank you for asking. The story of Jefferson and the story of slavery in the United States are deeply intertwined.

I understand that Jefferson's earliest memory involved a slave? Yes. He told his grandchildren that his earliest memory was of being handed up on a pillow to an enslaved person as his family was making a move from his boyhood home of Shadwell to Tuckahoe Plantation. And so making this journey with his siblings and his parents, Jefferson was carried by an enslaved person.

And so he says that that was his first memory. And of course, slavery continued to play an important part in his life throughout his childhood. When he turned 21, he inherited 5,000 acres and a number of slaves. About a decade later following his marriage, he received another two plantations and even more slaves.

What did he do with all this land and human property? Well, he basically lived the life of a planter. enslaved people planted tobacco at first and then later wheat. They served in his household.

They were the source of his wealth. He was a lawyer by trade. But being a plantation owner was the sort of basic understanding of himself, the basic part of his life. Even as he became a slaveholder, Jefferson also thought of himself as being an educated and cultured man.

He read voraciously. He loved music. He considered himself to be a man of science and reason. And much of his learning taught him that slavery was a terrible institution.

But slavery was also, as we discovered, essential to his way of life. What do Jefferson's early writings tell us about his views about this contradiction? Well, he thought of himself as I indicated a progressive person. And I have to remember that a lot of people who would be considered cultured and educated people were slave owners.

But the difference between them and Jefferson is that they never came to the conclusion that slavery was wrong. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this and learn to imitate it. For man is an imitative animal.

The interesting thing about him is that as a young man, he saw himself as a part of or an adherent to the notion of the enlightenment. And being anti-slav-trade, anti-slavery was one of the tenets that many people thought was a part of all of that. So I think he saw it as something that would gradually, and that's the thing that trips us up, gradually end, as people became more enlightened and learned more that they would realize that slavery was a backwards institution, an institution from ancient times. I think he thought it was just as we learned new scientific thoughts, just as we learned ways to make machines that are better, that the machinery of society would change as well.

And Jefferson was a great believer in progress and things being better in the future than they were in the present. Absolutely, and that's part of that's a strength and a weakness. Some people say the optimism was almost too great, but he definitely thought that mankind and society would get better and better. In her book, In That Rights, Jefferson was a lifetime participant in an ancient system that made him the master of hundreds of people over whom he had near absolute power.

He could buy and sell human beings. If hostility to tyranny was at the heart of his politics and plan for the United States of America, that sentiment had no real currency on his mountain. At the same time, he well understood the basic problem with his way of life and wrote damning and insightful criticisms of the institution that made it possible. I asked Annette whether this made Jefferson a hypocrite.

You could say that, but I think he was hypocritical in the way that many people are hypocritical and that all of us are hypocritical when we have an intellectual belief about something, but we don't have the will to act upon those beliefs. Jefferson did not know what to do about slavery. Slavery was not just an economic system, it was a system of social control. What do you do with Black Virginians when they are emancipated?

How do they fit into society? I just don't think he could see what a sort of real plan, a realistic plan for what to do about it. And that's something that we grapple with in lots of areas, believing one thing, but not having the strength to do something about it or to actually make that idea come to fruition if you have the shot. This ambivalence to what slavery became even more difficult to navigate after Jefferson went to Paris in 1784 on behalf of the new US government.

Jefferson went to Paris, he took a man named James Hammings, who was a teenager, 18, 19 years old at the time, and he took James with him to have James trained as a French chef. So there was some tension here because France of course at the time was resounding with the cries of liberty and equality. And Jefferson in some ways embraced French revolutionary fervor, but how did he manage that embrace of the revolution where the slaves he had in his own household? Well, the way he handled enslaved people in our James Hammings when he was in France had much more to do with French law, which at the time was on the side of the enslaved person.

I mean, people who petitioned for freedom in France, people who had been brought from the colonies and so forth or other enslaved people who were brought there from other places who petitioned for freedom had those petitions granted routinely. So when he's there with James Hammings, he knows that it's possible that James might at some point petition for his freedom. So he handles this, I think, although he doesn't say this, but this is the time when he begins to pay James Hammings regular wages. James becomes the chef de cuisine at the Hotel de Longe Jock Jefferson's residence before he had been giving James spending money or gratuities.

But once James takes over the role as the chef de cuisine, he begins to pay him. So I think he handles it by treating James as if he were a regular servant and instead of an enslaved person. Jefferson's wife had died by the time he got to France. At one point, a young slave was brought over from the United States.

She was actually the sister of Robert Hemmings, who was by his side as he drafted the Declaration of Independence. Who was she and what did she become to Jefferson? Well, Sally Hemmings, Sarah, nicknamed Sally, was sister to Robert and James. She had been something of a companion to Jefferson's daughter.

So she went along and she was 14. Sally Hemmings crossed the ocean and while she was there, we don't know when, she became Jefferson's and their son says, Caucubine is the term that he uses. And she became pregnant by Jefferson and she wanted to stay in France. By the time Jefferson thinks that he wants to come home, she wanted to stay and actually, all of the young people in the Hotel de Longe Jock wanted to stay in France.

Nobody wanted to go home. But Jefferson promised her that if she came back with him, she would have a good life at Montecalo and their children would be freed when they were 21 years old. So she agreed to that. She was 16 years old at the time and she came back to Virginia with Jefferson.

So for us at least with the vantage of history, this seems almost incomprehensible as a decision. Why would you give up essentially freedom in France to come back and be a slave in Virginia? I thought about that quite a bit. When I wrote my first book, that was sort of a point of mystery for me about Sally Hemmings.

But when I started writing the Hemmings as a Montecalo and working on that and I realized how important family was or I began to think about how important family would have been to someone like that. A 16 year old female raised to believe that she had some special connection to family in a way, to think about family, think about your mother is back in Virginia. Her sisters and brothers were there. So that would be an impetus.

I mean that was sort of a dilemma that many enslaved people faced. Do you run away and have freedom by yourself or do you stay and stick it out with your family? The other thing to consider is that Jefferson treated Sally Hemmings and her sisters and brothers very differently than he did the other slaves on the mountain. She had seen him, let her brothers sort of wander and go off and hire their own time, work for themselves, make keep their own money.

The enslaved women on the plantation, all but the Hemmings, had to go to the fields at harvest time. Hemmings sisters did not do that. They were constructed in a different way. And so I might have a different view of Jefferson.

I have a particular view of Jefferson from this particular time and seeing him as for lack of a better term, an enemy of these people, but it's not clear to me that she would have seen it in exactly the same way that I did. And that's one of the things you have to do when you're writing history is whatever you would want people to do, they may not think about things in the same way. So family and her history with Jefferson, not just the two of them, but his relations with her mother and her brothers and all of these people likely colored the way she considered making this decision. And of course she was she was still a child.

Yes well, she was by our light, she was a child. She was 16, age of consent in Virginia at the time was 10, and they raised it to 12 in the 1820s, and it was that way through the 19th century in most states of the Union. So a 16-year-old person to us is like a baby, but a 16-year-old person at that time would not have been thought of as a child. When you talk about this familial ties that basically potentially brought Sally back to Virginia, it's also worth pointing out that Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson in some ways were already related even before they got together in Paris.

Can you talk a little bit about that? Oh yes, well the Hemmings children, Robert and James and Sally Hemmings and three other siblings were the children of a woman named Elizabeth Hemmings and a man named John Wales. And John Wales from whom Jefferson inherited the 135 slaves and including the Hemmings family was the father of these six children. So Jefferson's wife and Sally Hemmings were half sisters.

So this connection between the Hemmings and Jefferson's really gets going through Jefferson's wife. It's interestingly enough when John Wales dies and Jefferson and his wife inherit the enslaved people including the Hemmings is they bring the Hemmings is too Montecello and they are installed as sort of the favored servants of Jefferson and his wife which is interesting because in many situations where a white plantation mister is he had a father or a son or a husband who had children with an enslaved woman they pressured them to sell the children or to move them to some other distant place. But I find it fascinating that Martha didn't take that route. She actually brought these people and I'm sure she's doing this through her husband to Montecello and she wanted them in her life which we don't know very much about Martha Jefferson but this is sort of an interesting point about her personality I think that rather than hide away the children of her father she actually brings them into her household.

So once they're back in Montecello the estate in Virginia which was Jefferson's home he went on to father six children with Sally Hemmings but at the same time he also had a white family that was also a part of his life. How did he navigate having these two separate families under the same roof? Well because he was the patriarch of Montecello and in those days it was much more than father knows best what he said would go because he was the head of the household. I think it's also important to remember that Jefferson had two surviving daughters with his wife you know who died in 1782 so I think he handled it by being the boss and it was the kind of thing that people would not question so he had basically the freedom to impose a kind of order on this place that everybody went along with plus you have to remember I think we have to remember that he wasn't married and the idea that a man would have a mistress or a companion or that he would have a setup like this was normal in Virginia it was not considered crazy and one of Jefferson's friends said that it was a common practice for widowed or bachelor slave owners to take an enslaved woman as and he uses the phrase a substitute for a wife obviously she couldn't be a wife because they couldn't marry black people and white people could not get married well until 1967 in Virginia so that was out of the question but this was something that happened in slavery and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around just as it might be hard for us to wrap our minds around about slavery in general but mixed children these kinds of connections from rape to sort of long-term liaisons however you want to call them were a part of slave societies and they have been in every slave society that has ever existed it's interesting isn't it because I think when most of us at least lay people think about the institution of slavery you think about it in economic terms or political terms you don't really think about it in terms of these family relationships which may have been every bit as important in keeping the system intact as the economic and political advantages that slavery conferred on some people yes but it also shows in some ways the deep horror of the institution because you think of family relations as you know biological connections we could say as something that would foster a sense of well a sense of connection and there is a sense of connection among some people at least it was for the Hemingses and for Jefferson but it warps everything because how can you have a true relationship how can you have the kind of connection that we typically associate with family under these circumstances but they people did as said most people this was they didn't care about the family connection at all they sold children they you know gave them away but this was a very strange attempt to create something or to maintain something that it's just very difficult for us to understand when we come back the Jefferson see the contradictions in his own life stay with us ah the faint scent of factor 50 it's time to dust off your it's not burnt it's well done apron you're ready to tackle the garden and suddenly it's the busiest room in the house it's summer and the go play outside summer sale is now on at home value with great value on barbecues lawnmores garden furniture and more from now until June 4th or while stocks last with 88 stores nationwide come into your local home value or shop online at home value value home value trusted local experts the bank holiday is finally here enjoy summer savers at centro with great offers like centro fresh our strip runs day two pack only eight euro offer ends sunday selected Pringles 165 grand 175 each plus diet coke and coke zero 12th impact only six euro each plus deposit bank holiday value sorted centro live every day and at Thomas Jefferson saw himself as one of the fathers of the nation but also as the patriarch of his own patch of paradise this estate of Monticello in Virginia how did Jefferson's sense of his obligations to his slaves shaped the way he felt about them this notion of being a patriarch which is kind of problematic for us these days uh for Jefferson it was not simply about the power he exercised over people it would be about his sense of responsibility and that of course greats with us because he's talking about responsibility over grown men and women you know and you think hey they could be responsible for themselves but his experience is in France with the hemingses with James and Sally Hemings they were the face of slavery for him and he saw himself acting as a slaveholder through his relationships with them and he is treating them differently he sees himself buying clothes for James paying James a full salary in France and continuing to do so when they come back to the United States treating them in a different sort of way he sees himself as a good quote unquote good and benevolent master and we balk at that and rightfully so but he saw himself as doing slavery in the right way if it had to be done and once you start to acquiesce or think of yourself as a good slave owner I think the urgency about ending slavery dissipates I have my house to build my fields to form and to watch for the happiness of those who labor for mine can you talk a moment about how Jefferson related to the slaves that he owned in terms of the violence that he and his overseers perpetrated on them well there's no record of Jefferson ever beating anybody but overseers that Monticello and his other plantations did use the whip the whip was a ubiquitous part of control on plantations but Jefferson developed the idea that using incentives would be a better way to get people to do things than to whip them it would destroy their value in my estimation to degrade them in their own eyes by the whip this therefore must not be resorted to but in extremities and while he was thinking about this he read a number of books about changes in prison the way that people dealt with prisoners and penitentiaries and the idea was incentives worked better than after the fact punishments so in the 1790s when he sets up a nail factory run by boys typically and older teenagers he institutes a regime of incentives that they would get extra rations for food they would get extra clothes sometimes they would get money they were paid gratuities so this notion of incentives versus punishment or whipping was something that became a part of his way of making himself a quote unquote better slaveholder and that's the thing he tried to foster which made him more comfortable in his role as a master in many ways I think it's hard to read your book without at least reading into it the possibility that Jefferson had at least in his own mind something approaching an intimate relationship with Sally Hemings that it was not just master and slave of course a lot of people have criticized you for this she was a slave she could not have given consent how have you come to understand the relationship between Jefferson and Sally Hemings you know I go back and forth on this I don't believe that every relationship between a and enslaved woman and a master was exactly the same I think there were different types of connections and Jefferson to me shows signs of having been attached to Sally Hemings I have no problem saying that because there are no stories about him with any other woman when he comes back from France you know ever but her we don't know about her because once she gets back here she is totally under his power but if you look at the kinds of male-female relationships they would have known at that time a wife a white wife would have been under the control of her husband too she could not refuse consent to sex anymore than a enslaved woman could he could not sell his wife but that would be about the only thing that he couldn't do so we look at this and there's this sharp difference between male-female relationships we see the difference between obviously a white woman has more power than an enslaved woman but those people Sally Hemings would not have thought that as a woman she would have freedom to do whatever she wanted so it's complicated we may not know how Sally Hemings failed but we do know what Jefferson's critics had to say at the time and that says Jefferson was rebuked but people who told him he had no business falling in love with a woman who wasn't white the newspaper reports in you know when Jefferson is president were saying we're castigating him for saying you know why have you not found i'm kind of paraphrasing here but why have you not found a worthy woman of your own color so people what people objected to was not that he had a child with her but it's that it seemed to be a continuing thing and that put it too much like marriage and that put it too much like the kinds of connections that white men had with white women and so back at his time that was the real objection i understand that at the end of his life Jefferson in effect freed Sally Hemings but didn't do it in a way that just simply said you know you are now freed in a more complicated fashion can you talk about what you did well Sally Hemings was never formally freed she left Monticello with her sons who were formally freed the two youngest ones the two eldest children went to live as white people and did not want freedom papers because that would indicate that they were enslaved and meaning that they were part black so she is not formally freed she's given her time and that's the phrase that they used and a possible reason for this possible reasons is that in order to free her he would have had to put her name in his will and request that the legislature allow her to remain in Virginia and 1806 law said that if you were freed you had to leave the state within a year unless you had permission from the government to state so he probably would not have wanted to do that second she was over 45 and you could not free an enslaved person below 21 or over 45 unless you explained how you were going to provide for their care for the rest of their lives and so he would have had to in addition to put her name in the will to ask for permission he would have had to say and here's the money that i'm going to give to support Sally Hemings and that would have been an admission and he was not going to do that so the community takes this notion that she is free and treat her as a free person which i think talks a little bit about law and how law exists on the books and how you're supposed to formally do things but if the community decides that you're a free person she was treated as a free person when we come back the enduring legacy of Thomas Jefferson's contradictions and what his story tells us about the contradictions in our own lives at DID Electrical we know getting a new appliances genuinely exciting a fridge with more space thrilling a washing machine that's actually quiet even better this weekend only at DID Electrical by selected Samsung large appliances and get 10% back on a DID rewards card plus enjoy five euro delivery and half price installation on all large appliances right now DID Electrical for everything you ah the faint scent of factor 50 it's time to dust off your it's not burnt it's well done apron you're ready to tackle the garden and suddenly it's the busiest room in the house it's summer and the go play outside summer sale is now on at home value with great value on barbecues lawnmores garden furniture and more from now until June 4th or while stock's last with 88 stores nationwide come into your local home value or shop online at home value dot i e home value trusted local experts the bank holiday is finally here enjoy summer savers at centro with great offers like centro fresh our strip one's day two pack only eight euro offer in sunday selected Pringles 165 grand 175 each plus died coke and coke zero twelve compact only six euro each plus deposit bank holiday value sorted centro live every day in 1824 Thomas Jefferson welcomed an old friend to his home at Monticello the friend was escorted by a crowd a procession of cavalrymen and ordinary citizens his approach was announced by a bugle the name of Jefferson's friend was Marie Joseph Paul e vroch jilbert de motier history remembers as a marquee the Lafayette my dear marquee mr president i am very glad to see you my friend Lafayette was a French aristocrat who was inspired by the american revolution he fought with the americans and convinced france to provide crucial support to the american cause decades after the revolution Lafayette returned to the united states in 1824 for a now famous tour of the nation including a visit at Thomas Jefferson's home in vijania 35 years of separation is too long indeed i trust that your journey has not proved too tiring not at all to the contrary the two men had a lot of talk about on their visit and at gordon reith says we know about the details of that conversation because of an enslaved man named israel jullette jefferson who was their carriage driver he overhears this conversation the conversation turned upon the condition of the colored people the slaves Lafayette always encouraged jefferson sort of needles jefferson about this issue of of slavery and emancipation i feel i must express my continued concerns about the issue of negro slavery Lafayette remarked that no man could rightfully hold ownership in his brother man that instead of all being free a portion were held in bondage which seemed to grieve his noble heart i feel i must continue to press upon you how much i desire to see this plague cured before my death mr jefferson replied that he thought that time would come when the slaves would be free my dear Lafayette you know where i stand on this issue but he did not indicate when or in what manner they would get their freedom i am not apt to despair yet i see not how our generation is to disengage itself from this deplorable entanglement he seemed to think that the time had not then arrived there's something deeply ironic about this isn't it i mean you have these two people who are speaking about high ideals and about the importance of equality and they've been driven around by somebody who's a slave and you you look at this and you say how can you not see what is happening well i you do we do definitely do that uh and i imagine and this is not too minimized as i would never do the depredations of the institution of slavery but i imagine a hundred years from now people are going to look back at certain things that we do and say uh why didn't people understand you know why didn't people do something and the lot of things there are a lot of times human beings don't act according to what they know is the right thing to do um Monticello was jefferson's place this was his way of life it's what he knew and he felt that he helped to found a country he helped the united states come into existence breaking with great Britain setting up a government that was a pretty big deal and that the next generation of people had something to do as well and that was to make the progress on the issue of slavery that he thought could be made now we're not satisfied with that because we say you had the talent to do this thing why didn't you use the talent to do the other thing but that's not you know what he thought he was here to do i hit the american revolution was the most important thing in his life and the tragedy is he couldn't see that after the unit's form that the thing that would split it apart would be the institution of slavery so you know it's a tragic story in a lot of ways but i think it's not surprising given human nature we don't always do what we think or we know is the right thing to do you know it's it's so fascinating when you when you read jefferson's story i mean it's an extraordinary story i mean he helped overthrow monarchy he helped to change you know archaic property rules he changed the way we thought about the role of religion in politics but when it came to slavery you know he didn't make as much progress as he could and what's frustrating is not just that he had the power but he also had the insight that slavery as an institution was not a good institution and i can't help but wonder in all of those other cases jefferson really didn't stand anything to lose i mean he didn't stand he didn't stand to lose from the from overthrowing monarchy he stood to gain from it oh if they had lost he would have lost his life i mean that was treason i guess the king to sign on to that project and they won only because the french helped them if the french hadn't done that he could have been hanged so he had something to lose there but i see what you're saying i i think that that's true in the sense that he didn't have as much to gain from fighting slavery he had a lot to lose however because i think jefferson was probably the most talented politician of his time and he forged a party that lasted from his election through jackson jackson considered himself to be a jeffersonian nobody's ever done that had that kind of political influence over that long a period of time and he didn't do that by making bad political calculations and we like to think oh sure if you had just tried hard enough you could have convinced virginians and southerners to vote slavery out of existence i think he looked at that and he knew that that was not going to happen and i think from the distance of history we can say this could have happened and that could have happened but i don't think realistically that could have happened slavery was going to end the way it ended no one has given me a convincing scenario how in the united states people could have just voted slavery out without a real real fight sure he could work for that but if he'd given his life to that we would not be sitting here talking about him i don't believe i think if you come back from france and said you know i'm going to work to end slavery i don't think he would have been vice president i don't think he would have been president so i think for him politically that was the choice to make to do the things that he could realistically have a success with and the things that he quite frankly cared more about than ending slavery and he was not i don't believe in the right moment to do that there are people who argue that judging historical figures to the lens of modern values and morals that it just doesn't work that in some ways our modern notions of bad racism simply cannot be overlaid onto people living in the 18th and 19th century in fact president trump weighed in on this in the context of a controversy of a confederate statues take a listen this week it's robert ely i noticed that stonewall jackson's coming down i wonder is it george washington next week and is it thomas jefferson the week after you know what you make of this and i hear what you're saying in terms of the difficulty of superimposing our current values on the past but at the same time that's what we have we have our current values and if we don't superimpose them on the past and the past continues to live amongst us well you know i don't i don't adhere to the idea that you don't make moral judgments i think history is a moral profession we don't just look back and say oh and here's how they slaughter the innocence and go move on i mean we do of course bring our lens to all of this and we also have to think to remember that there were people at the time you know who had some of the same values that we do so i don't think it's enough to just say we can't judge people in the past because i i judge maybe too strong a word you can certainly comment on you can certainly point out the contradictions you can point out the differences the vast you know distance between what people in the past thought and what we think as for you know washington and jefferson and monuments i've talked about this before i would draw a clear line between the confederates and the confederacy and members of the founding generation i i think there's every difference between people who help to create the united states versus people who try to destroy the united states i don't think that just because they're both in the past now we have to think of them as the same because they're not the same they don't bear the same relation to us i mean jefferson has ideals not all of jefferson's ideals do we adhere to but jefferson through the declaration and other of his writings other of his actions created a set of ideals that we still adhere to that still have meaning for us i don't know what the confederacy means to us so i draw a distinction between those people the people stonewall jackson and those people and people like washington and jefferson as a child and that you were the first african-american to integrate your school and in some ways you have personally experienced our nations struggle to discuss the legacy of slavery i'm wondering in studying the life of tomas jefferson do you see echoes in the contradictions that he had in the present day to some of the contradictions that he struggled with and perhaps ignore or rationalize are they still alive with us today oh i think they're very much alive the fascinating thing about jefferson is that in some ways he embodies the country i mean the struggles that were within him and that's all when you go to monochello you get to see the best and the worst of america and they're embodied in this person who was idealistic but in some areas did not live up to that and certainly the idea of citizenship first-class citizenship for african-american people is not has not come to pass i don't believe there's still issues there but yet we hold ourselves out as a melting pot so yes a lot of jefferson's contradictions are alive in us i don't think there's anybody in the founding generation who embodies that so well or shows this so well and that's what makes him a subject that we can't really i think do without and we can't push to the side because it's too much of a window into us to who we are as as americans i'm wondering do you ever think about jefferson's life and the contradictions he embodies and think about your own life and perhaps the contradictions that you might embody yourself that you know 200 years from now people are going to look back and say how could she possibly not see what's obvious to us oh absolutely absolutely i mean i i think about climate change and i get on my plane every week to fly back and forth between new york city and k-bridge uh you know what am i doing to to stop um you know trafficking and people sex trafficking and people that i know is something that's a problem i'm a lawyer uh why am i doing not doing more about that there's just lots of things now nothing is on the grand scale of jefferson as you mentioned before but i'm not living on the scale he was living i'm not the president i'm not an i'm not i don't have that kind of power but yeah yeah i think at all of us there are things that we know are wrong and because of our other preoccupations we say well that thing will take care of itself somebody else will figure that out uh that's for someone else to deal with even though we know that it you know we could make a contribution so yeah looking at him makes you think about yourself as well and that gordon reed is a historian and law professor at harvard university we've been talking today about her book co-authored with peter onoff most blessed with the patriarchs tomas jefferson and the empire of the imagination and that thank you for joining us today on hidden brain oh thank you for asking me this week's show was produced and edited by tara boil parthshah and kimila vargas rest repo artim includes jenny schmette reina koan tomas lu laura corral and kat shuknakt today's show included performances by shawn kc as tomas jefferson dia dovank as the markey de la fayette and jason fuler as israel jullette jefferson special thanks to leticia brock and brian don our ransan heroes today our npr colleagues hider zaman ditrya haze adis munier suraj patel and kevin no they have helped the hidden brain team with essential it support in recent weeks we literally could not have put out the show without their hard work and skill thank you hider ditrya adis suraj and kevin one last thing we're working on an episode about the power and perils of knowledge it's often said that when it comes to dealing with prejudice it's best to know how the world works if you're a person of color it helps to know how racism works to be on guard for it knowledge can protect you but there are times when ignorance might be helpful too if you knew people thought poorly of you this can be an impediment not knowing might help you if you have a personal story you're willing to share with hidden brain's audience that reveals both sides of this equation the power of knowledge the perils of knowledge we'd love to hear about it from you we're particularly interested in questions related to race or gender but we'll be happy to hear about other topics too please find a quiet spot and record a voice memo on your phone two or three minutes a splenty and tell us your story we'll follow up if we need more email your voice memo to hidden brain at npr.org and use a subject line knowledge again record a voice memo in a quiet spot and email it to us at hidden brain at npr.org using the subject line knowledge please include a phone number thanks so much i'm shankar vedantam and this is npr at did electrical we know getting a new appliances genuinely exciting a fridge with more space thrilling a washing machine that's actually quiet even better this weekend only at did electrical by selected stamps on large appliances and get 10 percent back on a did rewards card plus enjoy five euro delivery and half price installation on all large appliances right now did electrical for everything you ah the faint scent of factor 50 it's time to dust off your it's not burnt it's well done apron you're ready to tackle the garden and suddenly it's the busiest room in the house it's summer and the go play outside summer sale is now on at home value with great value on barbecues lawnmores garden furniture and more from now until june fort or wild stocks last with 88 stores nationwide call into your local home value or shop online at homevalue.ie home value trusted local experts