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and Maine to their gubernatorial nominee to Senator Chuck Schumer who's the head of Democrats in the Senate to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand who controls the Senate campaign committee to Zorron Mandani to Elizabeth Warren. So this was a sentiment that really went across a party that really doesn't agree on all that much when it comes to strategy or policy. But on this one issue that Graham Plattner has to go. Everyone seemed to agree. And it wasn't just all the people.
It was the money. The groups that control the money that was been reserved and ads in this race said no more money for Graham Plattner if he is still the nominee. And if there's no money, there's no competing against Susan Collins who has tens of millions of dollars reserved already. Okay. Lisa, let's talk about how the Plattner campaign reached this crisis point.
And you know the story almost wasn't anyone because a few weeks back you and Katie Glet came on the show to talk about the reporting you both did. In many ways started this all. You were looking at allegations about Plattner's treatment of women. You had spoken with several of his former girlfriends. That story has since evolved and gotten us I think to this moment.
Right. So we had spoken to six women who had previously been in relationships with the Graham Plattner. Three of them described unsettling incidents that at times felt physically violent or menacing towards them. One of those women who we had spoken to a woman named Jenny Rasko who is a Democrat who lives in Maine after we spoke to her. She came forward with much more explosive allegations.
Which are what? Basically in interviews both with Politico and then CNN she said that Graham Plattner sexually assaulted her. It was at the end of 2021. She says that they were in a relationship for two years or so on and off. It was a night where him and I were texting back and forth and he had taken something that I said as an invitation.
I said no don't come over. Like half an hour later I heard a noise outside my door and then he came in. He came over uninvited, let himself into her house. And I was laying on the couch. It was probably pretty late at night and I was getting already ready for bed.
I just wasn't in bed. And I looked at him and I remember this very specific look in his eyes and I could smell out the phone and I was like this is different. He is heavily intoxicated. And she said he started climbing on top of her and trying to be intimate with her. And I remember just like hey I'm not into this.
Don't, not in the mood. She says that she told him to stop and said no no but he kept going. Is there any way that he thought this was consensual or no? Just because? I don't believe that you can think that scenario was consensual.
I mean when somebody in the middle of it says don't touch me. That's obviously not consensual. She claims he raped her. She claims he raped her. And you know when she spoke to us earlier she had described on the record what she called reckless and unsettling behavior by Graham Plattner.
But she also spoke to us off the record and we honored that agreement. She has since told Politico and later CNN that she didn't go public with the specific assault at the time because she didn't want to be known as a rape victim. But as she watched him continue to be in the race and she watched the reaction to our story and she also connected with a woman who was involved with helping survivors of sexual assault tell their story. She decided she wanted to come forward and give this more detailed account. He said what has Graham Plattner said about this specific allegation?
Well, he released a video. I wanted to directly address the troubling, serious and false allegations against me. And he denied that this sexual encounter was non-consensual. Any accusation of non-consensual behavior is categorically false. He didn't deny the counter itself just that it basically that it was an assault.
But he did also acknowledge the potential political implications of this. Regardless of the inaccuracy of the reporting, the mindful of the political reality it will inflict. We are taking the time to reflect on the best path forward for the state that I love, the people that I love, the movement I belong to and the goal of the feelings is in Collins. And he said that he was taking a step back from his campaign to reflect, which then of course prompted the deluge of calls. Right.
But Shane, it did not prompt at least at this hour him to leave the race. So as the entire party abandoned him and said your campaign is over, what have the conversations been like inside the Plattner campaign? I think you have to put in context all the other things that Graham Plattner has survived so far, which is the accusation that he knowingly had a Nazi tattoo attached to. He has since covered up all of the Reddit posts that came out that would in normal circumstances potentially sink the candidate. And even the previous questions about his relationships with women.
And yet he won the Democratic primary. So yes, he said he was going to take time to reflect. And both Lisa and I have done reporting that shows that he seems to be aware of the political reality around him. But the campaign's discussions are about shaping the field after his exit, making sure that making sure that somebody who is aligned with his ideological movement becomes the nominee, that the Democratic party doesn't pick an insider who is opposed to his view that was aligned with Bernie Sanders and the sort of left wing ideology that he was pushing to have an expansive view of government to help the working class. So despite being engulfed in this scandal, he wants to play a big role in picking his replacement.
Is that right? And is that a reasonable request? Well, he and his team believe they have leveraged in this race. Their argument is that they were turning out thousands of main voters to these town hall meetings that he was having all over the state, that they really energized the base of the Democratic party behind their bid and that to win a general election, no matter who the Democratic nominee is, Democrats and Maine will need those people. But it's an open question over how much leverage he really has.
Like do Maine Democrats want to be taking advice from someone who left them in this position? Shane, how exactly is this going to work? Assuming that Graham Flattner doesn't fact leave the race, how is his replacement chosen and what role will he play on that, exactly? Yeah, I don't think you can talk about this without describing the timing, which is the Democratic party and Graham Flattner have one week to get him off the ballot because there's this hard deadline of July 13th for him to withdraw and be replaced on the ballot by a different Democrat. And it is a pretty audacious thing to say, I'm being accused of rape and I'm going to try to shape my successor in this race.
But to the extent that he does have leverage, it's because of this deadline, because until then he's the nominee and if he doesn't get out, he will remain the nominee. Because he could in theory just sit there, not drop out and make like very, very miserable for the Democratic party. But let's just play with the idea that the party is going to maybe be in conversation with him and find some mutually agreeable way of picking a successor. What might that look like? Look, one of his concerns that I think is shared more broadly across the Democratic party is the specter of the Biden-Harris replacement.
That is major scar tissue in the Democratic psyche among consultants, among elected officials, among voters, how that process played out has left a lingering sense of distrust in the party that's really pervaded into the race we're in now. And so I think there is a real awareness of wanting to have main voters and really Democratic voters across the country feel that his successor was chosen by some form of Democratic process. Because when Biden yielded to Harris, there was no role for Democratic voters. It was kind of a smoky back room situation. It was kind of a smoky back room situation.
You know, people came out and they endorsed Harris very, very quickly. And she just sort of became the new nominee. And I think that just left a lot of concern, a lot of mistrust in the party. And it's part of the reason the party has struggled still to this day with, you know, negative views of their brand, which, you know, as our poll showed last month, could potentially hurt them in these maternal. Right.
Arguably, it's one of the reasons why someone like Graham Plattner did so well in this race to begin with, there's so much residual distrust of the Democratic establishment. Yeah. Let's walk out in Maine, sure, like one minute, which is there were two races that National Democrats tried to intervene in in Maine this year. One was Graham Plattner's race where the party apparatus backed the two term governor Janet Mills, whose campaign got stolen attraction. She dropped out a month before the primary.
There was a second race also, which is the key house seat in Maine, where again, National Democrats picked a favorite candidate. They intervened to try to support this person. And that candidate also lost an important Democratic primary. So the voters of Maine have shown they are unhappy with getting kinds of directions from National Democratic leaders and Plattner and people around Plattner see him as a part of that movement. Even if he is gone, they want that somehow to live on.
The challenge is given who he is at this moment, right, is his presence in negotiating that helpful to finding another person. That's not at all clear. And there's another challenge too that Graham Plattner, as we said, has to be out of the race by July 13th. Someone else needs to be the nominee by July 27th. There's not a lot of time and it's totally unclear how you get from where we are now to where the party needs to end up at by the 27th of July.
That's not a lot of time. Right. And let's keep in mind, we are less than four months away from election day. So this is a moment in any midterm race where literally every single day matters. So they're also sort of costing themselves political momentum, political opportunity in a way for every single day.
The party does not have a firm nominee in this crucial, crucial Senate. What are some of the ideas being kicked around for a process of picking Plattner's successor that would avoid a by and there is kind of scenario. So for yeah, there are a bunch of things too that I've heard the most about. One is coming up with some kind of convention where you would select delegates and those delegates within pick the nominee. Another is having a statewide caucus where everybody actual people can go like another primary like a basically another primary, but hosted by the state in the middle of the summer.
As those discussions are happening, what we're seeing is the fissures inside the Democratic coalition ideologically just explode right now. The left is saying we have to have somebody like one of us like Plattner, given their successes in these primaries and the party establishment, the old guard is looking like, guys, you got this and look what we ended up with. Can we not do that again? Maybe we don't want a working class, fresh face who's never held elected office. We don't know about the past.
Maybe we want an elected official who has a long record who we're familiar with, who has proven that they can win the kind of votes you need to win an election. And the big arguments are happening about where should the Democratic party go? They're happening really intensely in Maine right now. Right. Yeah.
And our listeners can't see us, of course, but I was shaking my head a little bit when Shane was talking just because I think it's important for people to understand things like caucuses and conventions. These are things that parties spend months, if not years planning, how they're going to execute in a way that is credible. And they can still be a mess. We were in Iowa and they're still a mess. But it's a way that's effective.
That ends up with an election result that everyone feels like they can trust. And now this main Democratic party has to do this in two weeks, in two weeks. Yeah. And it's an insane proposition. It's an insane proposition.
And they can't even really launch a full bore into it because Plattner has not pulled himself off the ballia. We'll be back. Hi, Sarah Koenig here asking you to check out my new show from serial productions and The New York Times. It's called Metro with Sarah Koenig stories about New York City and its most fascinating raw material, New Yorkers. The sheer size of New York means that every kind of person is here, every kind of American weirdness, every kind of American conflict, every concern, so many stories.
Each episode Metro takes the bigness of New York and makes it human scale and relevant no matter where you live. Find it wherever you listen to your podcasts. Shane, once we figure out how a replacement for Grand Plattner is theoretically chosen and assuming he drops out, who are the people who might replace them, who are raising their hands? Is there a front runner who might be the next Democratic nominee for sent in Maine? We definitely do not yet have a front runner.
We definitely have a lot of people raising their hands or saying I'm fielding phone calls. Sort of leading the field is three candidates who ran for governor in Maine this year, all of whom lost that primary, Troy Jackson, who had Bernie Sanders endorsement in the primary. You have Narav Shah, who is a Maine public health official who actually finished second in the primary. And then you have Shena Bellows, who is the secretary of state, all of whom could conceivably run. You have the Plattner world sort of thinking about other allies, like a state representative, then you have the people who were in the Senate race who exited when it became clear it was Plattner versus Mills, a brewery owner named Dan Cleveland, who declared an exit of the race, Jordan Wood, who would run for Senate, then ran for House, lost the House race.
I'm just going to interrupt to say, because this is a lot of names, these do not seem like household names who would catch fire in a few weeks. Well, there is one household name, Michael Patrick Dempsey, McDreamy, the actor, the pride of Maine is on the list. You know, I'm not sure how serious that bit is at all, although he was tossed about in one of these polls that was sent out to Maine voters at one point. But I think that his inclusion really gives you a sense of where the state of things are chaotic. Chaotic, yes.
OK, it's a possible state's governor, Democrat Janet Mills, who was seen by the establishment as a logical person to have beaten Graham Plattner. She didn't. She might just suddenly become the nominee. I mean, there's always a chance, but I think it's a pretty hard case to make, given that she exited the race because she's such a good reason of money. She wasn't making any attraction in the polls and didn't even make it to primary day.
She's come up in precisely zero of the phone calls I've had with people about who's the likelyest replace planner at this point. OK, given the turmoil on the Democratic side of this race now and the reality that Susan Collins has been the United States Senator and Maine for a very long time, how should we think about both sides, odds in this race and how they have just changed in the last few days? So right now it's a total disastrous mess for Democrats, but there is a silver lining that a lot of Democrats are seeing, which is that Graham Plattner before this scandal was looking like a wounded candidate. The New York Times just did a series of polls and all of the key Senate battleground states that Democrats are trying to flip to take the majority. And Plattner scored worse than all the other Democrats on some of the most important questions of character, whether you were the right moral values to be a leader.
And Susan Collins was among the highest scoring people. And so there are a lot of Democrats saying, hey, this might be messy now, but we have a chance for a fresh start in a state that Kamala Harris won in 2024 and say that Leen's Democratic, you don't need a movement leader like Graham Plattner. So you has a particular charisma. You might just need a Joe Schmo generic Democrat can beat Susan Collins. Now that might be a little ambitious given how many races Susan Collins has won.
She's beaten an awful lot of Democrats in the past in good years for Democrats in bad years for Democrats. But this does not look like a good year for the Republican Party and the Democrats are excited about the possibility of starting over at this point. Yeah. And I think one way to assess that is how Republicans are feeling and Republicans are feeling fairly disappointed by this outcome, at least in private conversations, because they felt that they had a Kansas A in Graham Plattner, who was extremely flawed. One Republican group spent $9 million since the end of April running as defining him as bigoted and violent and too risky for the state.
So they were charging into this general election, defining Plattner as unfit for office. And now they're going to get some new person and they certainly will have to do all the research to figure out who this person is and figure out how to define them in a way that works for Republicans in a very, very short period of time. And I think it's also important to remember in these conversations that Senator Collins has plenty of her own vulnerabilities. And there's two that stood out quite strongly in our polling. One is her age.
She's 73 years old at a time when we know voters are very, very eager for generational change, change in Washington. She's running for a sixth term. And also she is aligned with the Republican Party and she's, you know, bit unpopular president and unpopular president who she has for all her sort of moderate maverick reputation. She has voted with the vast majority of the time. And she's in a national political environment that is quite bad for Republicans.
Not only is there an unpopular president, there is an unpopular war. And people are really, really anxious about the economy, which she did vote against via the War Powers Resolution. But Shane, is it right to think of Collins as weak and as Republicans not looking forward to having to pivot from making a case against platinum or just only making affirmative case for Susan Collins? I think that the Republican brand in Maine is weak. I don't think that there's evidence that Susan Collins herself is as weak.
In that poll, we asked voters, how do you feel about President Trump handling the cost of living issue, which is for so many voters, the defining issue of this moment. His approval rating was 31%. So if you are running in your Susan Collins, you're going to need to win a huge chunk of voters who think the president is blowing the issue most important to them. So I do think the president creates deep vulnerabilities for her in that state. It just reminds us of where this Maine Senate race fits into the national Senate map.
And let's presume for a minute that this race gets a little bit challenging for Democrats to win despite what Changer said. And maybe they don't win the Maine Senate race. It's just take Maine off the map. Can Democrats win back the Senate without it? It's not impossible, but it's very, very hard to win control.
The Senate Democrats must retain all the states they currently hold and flip for Republican held seats. No simple task. No simple task. There are six battleground states that both sides are looking at of those six battleground states, only one went for Harris in 2024. And that is Maine.
So Maine has long represented what many Democrats believe is their best shot to flip one of those four Republican held seats that they have to flip. So without me, it's not impossible, but the task gets much harder. Yeah. I mean, the task is just really hard. And four of those six battleground states are places that Trump won by 10 percentage points or more.
Democrats won't hold any seats in the entire United States Senate that look like that. So the idea they're going to flip to or three of them is really, really tough. I think it's fair to say that the situation that Plattner has created in Maine was the Democratic establishment's worst fear. They articulated it over the last year over and over again, as they made the case against Grand Plattner as the nominee in Maine. They felt it's a winnable seat with a deeply flawed candidate.
They fought it at every turn and it came to embody this tension. We keep talking about on the show between the establishment and the insurgent left. And at times it has felt like the Democratic establishment has felt wise in its conclusions about Maine and there have been times it felt like they were completely wrong. They were wrong to assume that Plattner couldn't win. And then they were right to have intuited that he was a flawed candidate.
Ultimately, is this a vindication? What's happened in Maine for the Democratic establishment or not? I don't think there are any winners right now in this process. No one is vindicated. No one is vindicated.
The Democratic establishment had originally recruited Janet Mills, the state's two term governor, but she would have been the oldest freshman senator in American history right after Joe Biden's age was the central issue of the 2024 campaign. And that was just a mismatch for where voters are, how this plays out going forward. There could be some winners, right? But they have to navigate the very ideological divides that are tearing at the party in this really compressed time period to find somebody who can continue to keep the real grassroots motivation and momentum that built up Grand Plattner and not turn off the rest of the voters. And in August, we're going to have a Michigan primary where these same forces will clash up against each other again.
You have a candidate, Haley Stevens, who's preferred by Schumer going up against Abdul El-Sayed, who was backed by some of the same strategies that backed Grand Plattner. So the party will go through another round of this, you know, shortly after they navigate through this main mess. Is it possible or likely even that the leaders of the Democratic Party play it really safe and not embrace all this insurgent energy at a time when Democratic socialists are ousting incumbents in New York and winning in Colorado. And the most successful strategy and you both documented it is to run against the Democratic Party brand in order to represent the Democratic Party brand.
I mean, the Democratic Party brand is in crisis. I've been talking with a bunch of Democrats in recent weeks just to put in perspective how big a deal it was that Plattner became the nominee and how important it would be if Abdul El-Sayed was the nominee in Michigan. The party establishment basically hasn't lost a competitive Senate primary in 10 or 15 years. Like Chuck Schumer and the DSCC have picked these candidates in basically every competitive race. And these are the first instances where voters have come and said, you know what, not so much.
We don't like that. We want to try something different. And the party is not sure how to deal with this. This is a new phenomenon. We've seen this in the Republican Party where the voters rejected the leadership following Trump.
But like, this is new for the Democrats. And so they're just a steep learning curve because it is all so new. It also feels like it's a very important lesson here for running against the Democratic brand. And that's about the value of vetting and the tradition of evaluating candidates, the establishment has put an emphasis on for a very long time. As you both know, there's a group of political consultants who took some measure of pride in bucking that set of protocols in traditions when they found Grand Plattner.
And I wonder if they now second guess the pride they took in bypassing some of that traditional vetting. Look, I think there was a desire in democratic circles to find candidates who had quote unquote authenticity. That was the big buzzword. But authenticity comes with authentic problems and missteps and mistakes. I think the people involved with the Grand Plattner's race felt that voters would like a narrative of someone sort of pushing through adversity, cleaning up their life, finding a new path forward.
And I think voters do like those kinds of stories. Everybody likes those kinds of stories. But the question is how much of their past will voters say is acceptable, at least when it comes to democratic candidates? Right. Of course, authenticity doesn't always come with flaws.
Certainly doesn't always come with an accusation of that serious nature. I suspect that as humbled as some of the strategists are who were who were greater than Plattner, they still would like the party to trust their overall instinct that fighters are required in this moment, that agitators are the future of this party and that Grand Plattner very successfully challenged that in a way that his flaws aside may still want to be a model for the party. I think there is something to that. I think Democrats are looking for people who are willing to fight. And I think there's a pervasive sense among the party's base that Democrats haven't stood up in the past strong enough to Trump and haven't spoken out strong enough for their values.
But the issue is finding people who meet their criteria of authenticity, of fighting, but also can be electable by a general electorate in battleground states. It's a challenge. I think there's a push to find fighters of the political system, not just of Republicans, but saying everything that has kept you economically where you are needs to be overturned. I'm not just going to fight Donald Trump. I'm going to fight to overturn the oligarchs as Bernie Sanders likes to say, or the Democratic Party or the Democratic Party donors or the corporate class, right?
It's picking villains and fighting those villains and making it not just Trump. The criticism from the left is that too many of the sort of squishy middle say they're going to be big fighters and they would just want to fight Donald Trump, but they don't want to fight other powers that are holding you back. And Plattner very much framed his candidacy from the start as a fight, not just against Trump, but against Democrats. And it's that energy that is very hard for the Democratic Party establishment to pull in because it's energy against them. Right.
Well, Shane, Lisa, thank you both very much. Appreciate. Thank you. Thanks. Hi, Caitlin.
Hi, Caitlin. How are you? Oh, sad. Yeah. Yeah.
We're just sad yesterday afternoon. They were recording it. And so I, for 30, I was out there pulling up my lawn sign and just, you know, hot broken on Tuesday. Daily producer Caitlin O'Keefe spoke with Democratic voters in me, many of them, once passionate supporters of Graham Plattner about the latest allegation against him and the growing calls for him to drop out of the race. I went, oh, shit.
It's just me on frustrating. I don't mean my politicians to be perfect. As a matter of fact, I'd prefer they be imperfect, but it's like, you know, Graham, really, really that's awful. The details of the sexual assaults feel horrendous. I just could have sat down and cried.
I feel a little disgusted with it all. Like, I'm annoyed that there's another dude who is in line to become a leader. And we're dealing with this shit again. Whether it's true or false, I think he has to withdraw. Clearly he has to drop out.
I absolutely think that he needs to drop out. He'd be better off with another candidate. If he does drop out, what do you want to see in a replacement for Plattner? The replacement for Plattner has to add a similar progressive done with the establishment, but class consciousness, Medicare for all, whole, get into bootle. Honesty, honesty in the clean background.
You know what I'm saying? I just want a politician that I can trust in that as integrity. You don't have to make this like our heart man appear as our savior. I think the main Democratic Party has to be very, very careful with how and who they choose to replace him. There are fully confident people out there, but they don't have his charisma.
Who has it? Is there someone that I don't know about? I truly have no idea of who could step into this role. We just need somebody. We need some hope someplace.
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In the latest challenge to a shaky ceasefire, Iran attacked three commercial ships and the United States were tallied by carrying out airstrikes against several Iranian military targets and by revoking Iran's right to sell oil on the open market. The tit for tat attacks demonstrated the challenge of restoring both peace and pre-war levels of trade in the region. And in France, a court has upheld the conviction of the far right leader, Marine Le Pen, on charges of embezzlement. But in a major victory for Le Pen, the court lifted a ban on her ability to run for office.
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