The Last Evening

Diane it's 1052 p.m. Welcome to the ninth episode of Twin Peaks Peaks. Is it nine? This is episode eight.

I thought it was episode eight plus the pilot. I'm pretty sure it's Apologize for my what rolling of my peas? I don't know my fattening of my peas. Uh I'm pretty sure it's a close-up actually.

Okay. All right, Ashley. I've taken some linguistics classes, right? Okay, I told you this is episode eight plus the pilot.

No, it's episode eight not plus the pilot. It's episode eight total. I'm 90% certain because I just started a file for this podcast and it did not throw up an error when I just typed in, you know, tpp8. Okay, so it is the eighth episode.

It's the ninth week because we took a week off. That's what it is. Hey I'm I'm Matthew. I can count the number of episodes in Twin Peaks season one, Olson Uh, there is no revival news this week, but unlike last week we did remember to get food.

So there will be a damn fine food segment in this week's episode the season one finale Uh the last evening Is it easy? Is it easy? I have an episode. Yeah, it's also the only episode that Mark Frost directed and one of many that he wrote But it is the first one that he has written without David Lynch so far.

I can tell you This is definitely a Mark Frost episode Right. Like if you if you just remember that he was on Hill Street Blues He's one of the creators of Hill Street Blues and action driven shows. Yes. Yes.

Yes I think that puts a lot in perspective. Where do you want to start talking about the explosive exciting season finale? Also, I guess the this is the season finale of our podcast, right? Except we come back next week.

We come back next week We have the we have the build-in. I just feel like We should try to mirror the show a little bit and have some really exciting things happen this week like things that are Consequential for the like the future of this podcast, you know, like we should inject some personal drama is all I'm saying It's no better time. All right. Um, so You want to talk about okay the first note that I have actually you can just take a look I let me read it out for the listeners Donna in a baseball cap a look Um, I remember uh, also noting like Donna's got a baseball cap on which I think if we both noticed it is a look I think it's norm core is what the kids are calling it's all right.

Oh my god. Donna's norm core look That's where we're gonna start the episode is look segment this week. Oh my god. We're not like five minutes in and you've already dropped your phone again Sorry, um, well look that just this is one of the recurring thematic elements of our podcast is the fun dropping.

Sorry Um, no, but that's like that's like her detective outfit is like I'm gonna put on a baseball cap and no one in this town of 5,000 or 50,000 People are gonna recognize me. Yeah, not the The smoothest disguise I think Other note from that scene. It's just really quick She pushes the button in the wilder in jikobies office I'm not music starts playing and then she like gets mad at james that she like pushed the button and the music starts playing Yeah, when this is clearly like her problem Um So so so we're referencing that look and how you remember it's been a couple days since I watched the episode Uh, but my notes are all my notes and they they they track with my memory But I'm at the very start of the episode. I just want to say the slow pan over dr.

jikobies office Like I felt to me like This explains everything like the whole choice of throwing these quirks is like love of the beach life Um, it's like beach life. It's very specifically like polynesian culture Yeah That whole thing was just like a setup for this like long shot that gets to luxuriate over the pan across this office because it's such If you're watching this just like with the opening credits the show immediately preceding it It's so dissonant to go from snow quality falls to this like palm tree backdrop and then like crashing ocean wave sound and like that whole vibe It's you go from uh nirvana to fucking margarita ville is what it is It's that harsh transition and it's that kind of thing that twin peaks Like I don't know if I would call it like the frost touch But it's definitely an automatic of a show is that the show can luxuriate all at once in It's north western setting and it can also throw you for a loop by throwing you into Uh cooper's dream or something out of the blue it can like keep you on your toes in that way Um, and even though this is like, yeah, it's just a physical office Like it's still different enough to feel different than to stand out in that way Well, yeah, and I was also gonna make a joke about like admiring his commitment to his aesthetic and jikobies commitment to his aesthetic But I think it also really mirrors the shows commitment to his aesthetic through it's like Um set design costume design sort of the approaches that they take in visually arranging the series and its production This episode is obviously very full of the color red for instance, which was a very purposeful choice. Yes. Yes, it was Um Cool.

I would love to hang out in that office drink a drink a margarita and eat a cheeseburger and not paradise That's how you should redecorate your place I am looking You know in various places for sort of like design inspiration I don't think twin piece is that because no no jikobies office Well, I don't want jikobies office nor do I want like zigzag floors and red curtains because that would probably wig me out Nor do I want like a large deer head hanging for my wall. There's not a lot of I could Well, I know if you know if I had time and money to change my shitty Uh shitty Portland apartment into the great northern. I would love that. That's my alley I was uh just last week.

I was at the uh the ski cabin that belongs to our alma mater I he's something about me. I just hate that phrase for some reason Yeah, it seems like it seems like all the modders always busted out and like the worst the worst kind of like Conversations, but anyway, that's correct. That's the ski cabin and I mainly go there not to hike in the summer time Not the ski and when I talk because I can't ski but just to like hang out in a cabin There's something like so nice about the cabin feel. Yeah, I like the cabin feel.

That's why I like the great northern Uh, so Before we leave our weird wonderful friend dr. Jacobi he gets totally fucked up by the mystery person dude wait I know And show what happens um and it's something that this is the only what my third fourth time watching this episode But I've always I always like seem to forget uh that story be or at least how intense and like kind of Legitimately frightening it is um And he has a heart attack. It's like it's so bad. He has a heart attack and then it's just like it's it's nice Going back and always for kindness.

It's like oh yeah jacobie. I can feel bad for you You are weird you had a very inappropriate relationship with laura pauler of some kind but also like These like mystery kids donna baseball cap hayward and james Cocaine and the tailpipe well in the in the gas tank Tailpipe cocaine is of a much lower quality The kind that leo and bob you're trying to sling in any case not the place to store your cocaine You sure I feel like I feel like that Has to be based like it's because you're right it's still out to me too Like the you know who the fuck would put a bag of cocaine in the gas tank like that doesn't make any sense But then I realized that I'm not someone who would ride a motorcycle and try to smuggle cocaine across borders or anything Like I had another's like a million other places you could potentially hide it in a bike But also maybe that's happened like the hell angels are a thing they have transport drugs It doesn't seem safe because like if there's a hole in the bag then your fucking cocaine is ruined Right there's that investment down the toilet if there's a hole in the bag But also that's assuming that you're moving like what? Just like a handful of bags of cocaine and they're just like oh man I lost one and now my business is sunk like no This is like this would be large quantities and losses happen even in the drugs business more people die when a bag or two Just lost in the drugs business. I'm sure but you know Now I'm now gonna be up at three in the morning Immediately after we finish recording this podcast at this rate looking up like how many people transported drugs to the gas tank of motorcycles in real life Y'all who answers that that happened Anyway Yeah, so I was saying like this is definitely a mark-cross episode and I feel like mark-cross episodes are In terms of like his like this one is like most of it by him by the lines that stick out and you're not sure whether they're good or bad in context Um we get more time Uh with cooper and company at when I jacks and cooper finally talks to Jacques and gets the like confession of great Discomforting shot of jocks mouth as you say what?

Oh, what did you think of that? Oh, that was the worst Other than your visceral reaction like I'm sure you mean like obviously it was like suppose Uncomfortable I was supposed to make him into an unsympathetic character Um what do you think is appropriate considering kind of what he's involved in and I think it I'm Sometimes I think that um pieces of media go out of the way to humanize and create sympathy for bad people And that audiences can kind of easily fall prey to that. Um, well Heisenberg is the uh, he's the protagonist of breaking bad And you're supposed to root for him because he's a badass, right? Hi And uh But uh point being I wrote my thesis about this um to a large extent Um, but I thought that that was like a very thesis for your alma mater Yes, um, but it was like a very like it was a really good way to like make the audience feel like viscerally creeped out by this dude Not just like analog like oh, yeah, I guess he's a bad dude But like it was a very real like discomfort But also the shit that's coming out of his mouth penned by mark Ross is so Like the situation he describes with lea when the bird and Laura is like terrible But then the the quote that shock is that supposedly from leo's mouth Um, I'm gonna do my best to uh imitate jockereno right now Bite the bullet baby And he's gonna watch his lips, uh real up close There's I have more lines like this that has stuck out to me from this episode That for various reasons.

I can't tell if I actually like the line or if the line is just memorable in part because it He's telegraphing something so bluntly like leo and jocke are bad men When that's the con given the context and the delivery of that line by the bullet like it's like there's no other takeaway Um, which is you know, like you said it's unambiguous, which is nice when sometimes it's nice It's nice when actually we just start enough to be like no, this is a bad person And I don't want to give you the room to be like oh the hero the story is actually jockereno Or we're in french-canadian Smokeland drugs across the border and also mistreating women. Oh wait that doesn't sound right But I don't have critical thinking skills like it doesn't leave room for that kind of thing so much Yeah, um, do you want to know the one line that I took down from this episode? Yes He might not be a mystery man, but you might be history man. That's another one You might be history.

Okay. I'm just gonna let's just do some twin peaks Who this could be a new segment where we like try to deliver our like stand out lines from the episode Okay, I don't have any other ones like that. So you can go okay. Um, this is this is Andy in the episode when asked about His relationship with Lucy, uh and where that stands as we say in law enforcement gang the trails gone cold Um, okay.

Do you want to hear my do you want me to do my best? Laura yeah, that's Laura. Okay. God James is sweet, but he's so dumb I can only take so much sweet right now actually wait.

Can we talk about Laura's tape when you're done? We absolutely have to talk about it. Um, uh, oh here comes mom with milk and cookies Like these are the lines. I kept these are mark cross wrote these Um, do I have any more?

When Where Leland just says hospital Um Yeah, I think another well, what kind of dangerous game have you been playing? I don't know Fuck me. I didn't even write down who said that. Oh, I do love um before I get to Laura's tape that uh, I think Lucy's nickname if I caught correctly was Punky?

Yes Uh, let's talk about Laura's tape, but quickly because I led with that Andy line. Okay, let's talk about the Lucy and Andy Okay, okay So most people had to do from the previous episode that Lucy is pregnant and she breaks the news to Andy after he successfully fires his gun And she whoa whoa whoa wait, okay. Wait, think about What's happening there? He successfully shoots his gun.

Um, Lucy's pregnant And there's something that the viewer who's watching along doesn't yet know in this equation But that will the pairing of those metaphors will make sense. Yes in the future In this situation the gun represents anyway I mean does does a gun ever represent anything else? Um, if I Do you ever heard of I think it's called Zardos? It's this movie with Sean Connery Uh, where like literally in the dialogue characters are talking about How Uh, like just drawing the direct comparison between guns and penises, but it's like a fantasy movie like in a world gone wrong And it's like matriarchy and all this stuff but like gun penis direct comparison is drawn in the sand Um, very interesting.

Sean Connery wears like a red speedo and like a red like double like cross over the chest bandolier the whole movie And that's really tacky Anyway, wow, but uh, the important thing is that Andy does not take the news of Lucy's pregnancy No, and Lucy does not in turn take him taking that news poorly well. So What's gonna happen to the two most level characters in the sheriff's department? We don't know Piece of lingering drama number one for the season finale Um, Laura's tape the tape that the the mystery kids were so damn hard to get a hold of So I actually texted you about this tape before I came over here. Remember?

Uh, yes. Yes So we've heard the state previously, um, so it's gonna sound familiar and people on the use net boards were pretty quick to point out that um That the tapes are different despite ostensibly being the same Um, both in terms of like delivery and the actual like written lines Hmm. Did you notice that? I did not notice that um continuity is not my strong suit So different sides of the same paint.

No, no, no, no, no like they're like tapes work No, no, no, no, no, it works like if you okay, so the first tape the one that we hear um in episode two So this is after Jacoby like eyes a locket and he's like received her last tape that she mailed him before she died Um, it starts with hey, what's up doc? It's laura palmer in case you haven't guessed I'm making another one of these tapes, which is you already know I've mailed to you and one of the envelopes you gave me it's Thursday the 23rd. I'm so bored I'm in a weird mood. God James is sweet, but he's so dumb I should have met you a long time ago doctor jacobie because right now I can just take so much of sweet I know I'm gonna get lost in those woods again tonight.

I just know I remember me telling you about that mystery man well And that's when he puts headphones on in that cutout so in the delivery for that tape she's like Very obviously on the verge of sobbing and like very very upset Um, and then in the tape that donna maddy and james steel from doctor jacobie's office Which is ostensibly the same tape it goes hey with that doc. It's laura in case you haven't guessed No line here. So the line that was previously here is just gone It's thursday the 23rd and i'm so bored actually i'm in kind of a weird mood god james is sweet But he's so dumb and right now I can only take so much of sweet Hey, remember that mystery man. I told you about Well, and then we get the like yeah mom milk So there's like it's obviously like two different performances and it's not just that like The tape has been like caught out for some reason So the question becomes like is this like a production error or like Did jacobie like have someone rerecord this what would the point be in that?

Is there just a second version of this that exists? I would just like I wouldn't even necessarily talk about to it being like a production error Like you could also take the the leave-in say like when episode two was written out There were some things that weren't so crystal clear in the minds of the writers about what they wanted laura's last tape to convey About laura's character and like the important thought details is they were setting up that by episode eight They were just like well Well, and then just like change it for the sake of changing it hoping that no one would notice Not even thinking that no one Not even thinking about people noticing it like well and like the thing that I like kind of take issue with if they are just like Rhett conning that original version of the tape is it paints like a much more like flat simplistic picture of laura Yeah the I mean something about laura's character which I I think Is both interesting and sort of a problem for the show is that laura's characters in a way constantly being right conned because we're getting these we're getting what's ostensibly complete pictures of of laura's life at least as mystery as focal point of mystery delivered to us You know kind of every couple episodes in the course of this mystery where it's like this is laura And I feel like every time a new piece of information comes out like we meet someone else who was close to laura Like we're actually kind of being fed not just like something to flash out that picture more We're kind of being fed a different entirely Well, and I think it's like make that like what you're talking about right now like different people presenting different sides of laura Like makes sense to a certain or like can be rationalized to a certain extent because like you act differently around different people That's just like a fact of the human experience because you like you social cues to like read off of the environment Um, but the fact is that like this artifact should have been constant across time and it wasn't right well, I mean we live in a reality where the Barrenstain bears books On my other podcast that we're in timeline to where laura was not crying when she recorded I'm just saying like I think it's you can obviously the intent when people like make revelations about laura and like they knew that Laura was in trouble where they like were with laura in this certain time or whatever Those are meant to give us the audience like a fuller picture of laura and if you was and they do but also sometimes it feels like it Bleeds into like the attitude everywhere where it's like someone was like laura was into like darker shit than you knew And then now like whenever anybody's talking about laura that's like the paul that hangs over it Where's just like but no you knew laura is just like the nice The nice high school homecoming queen but like now you're like nah like but she but she was though It's like that wasn't what you said back in episode two like well I mean that also gets into another interesting point like have you listened to cereal? Uh, no, I haven't listened to cereal in fact I don't think we should promote them because people just stop listening to our podcast and listen to them That is true Um, but the there's this interesting part where they're interviewing someone who was um friends with the victim And they're saying, you know, what did you think of the guy who has been jailed for this time? You know when you met him prior to this um and the the victim's friend is saying oh, you know, there's always something wrong with him I just see uh bad guy.

Um, and then they kind of pushed a little harder and say like oh but you you hung out with him like your friend Like what was that like and then the victim's friend says oh well looking back on it Like I didn't have a problem with him. He was just like a normal guy So like that kind of stuff can absolutely overshadow your memories particularly because The mechanism of memory is so fragile and so dependent on the process of remembering previously So every time you remember remembering you're really remembering The process of remembering it from previously so you're in a sensory writing it welcome to our pop psychology podcast No, I mean like yeah, this is all this is all relevant and interesting to this discussion I just think though that like yeah Talking about call to production error if you want but I would be more inclined to just think that the writers In plotting out one episode made of the decision and then mark frosted down to pen episode eight He he uses some of the same lines but as it's just like artistic license whatever like retcons happen and One thing that I think is sometimes detrimental to at least the enjoyment of a thing Uh, if not like the analysis is taking a retcon too seriously Um, especially one that's like I guess like yeah, it does mean a lot to the tone changes like the tone changing means more to me than the Like lines not being there or something. Yeah No, and like that like if it had just been like here is this tape or like it's audio that we've already made and we're just gonna like Cut some stuff out and we'll like intersperse it with some other stuff So you don't really that conscious decision but like to have the how surely like re-record that with like this lighter tone Yeah, that conscious decision to do all that like is more concerning to me than the fact that they like adders track of lines Like they also like directed it differently and again that could just be oversight Uh like whoops mistake like we didn't really intend that but then like one day was just someone's wind was different and they would have rather had checked But that's totally different from like when marvel tries to retcon characters having a different origin because they want comics To reflect movies and stuff like and then but then people like like that's clearly a telegraph like reason why they're doing that But then people will be like that changes everything in terms of the other thing It's like well, you know what you're already like probably ignoring a lot of things to enjoy comics But you should really just like roll with the punches when it's like clearly an external force And I think this as weird as it is Like I would just roll with a bunch like twin pieces are showed where the production constraints and things like are actually like pretty much on display all around Um, I would say it's not like a poorly like or like under budget show But you can tell especially in season two where production gets in the way of things um and I hear what you're saying and like I yeah like shit like this happens But this is also like how the artifact like is constructed And I'm not talking about the tape like the show itself is constructed And like it is just part of like the interpretive process to try to reconcile these two things like what do you think It means in these scenes that these tapes are different because I feel like this is really kind of like I just lost the word I was thinking of but it's kind of Coddling like Donna and Maddie and James to have this version of the tape And they had the one where she was like distressed and talking to dr. Jacobi about how she kind of wished she had gotten help sooner like that I think to them it's a very different picture of like where she was at right before she died But yeah, that is really interesting.

I just don't want to then have to like and I would love to like think on that Like essay on that but I would not ever want to put myself unless she's someone who's gonna jump through hoops to explain In the context of the show why that happened like you know like a physical Say like it's a production error and still like do some like interpretive work on it. Yeah, which is like a lot of like The interpretive process for like any piece of media or art. I feel well If it's of like a sufficiently high quality There's a lot of stuff I would say out there that revolves around these kind of quirks and things that are clearly like artifacts production That then just get hung up on reconciling that for the sake of enjoyment when the answer to just enjoying it is to enjoy it Yeah, but in doing and interpreting can be two different things I'm saying there is what you're saying like would be like worthwhile interpretive work things being Pitched as such. I'm saying this is a fan of lost That are in that are just people using high-fluent language and and critical terms to ultimately just like sew up their plot holes such that they feel good about it And I think you're not saying that in the case of this tape.

I'm saying I think you're saying it's interesting that it's presenting these two different views and we can just like chalk it up to whatever In your work, you wouldn't be trying to say like but could it be because the tape passed through The dream room at one point. Okay, if I was if I was like actually writing a say that I was gonna submit to like some kind of like publication Yeah, professor whatever I would have to account for that in some way because the existence of both like you feel like that's necessary Yeah, I would like ideally want to if I didn't come to something satisfactory I could gloss over it but like ultimately like the mechanism could be important to the thesis about interpretation Would you okay tell me this would you first? Wait, wait, wait, let me clarify also There is another way to go about it, which is talking about like the meta construction of the show which would Be more able to incorporate production error as like a part of interpretation versus like really getting into um, just looking at block I was gonna say that is like one obvious route to go where you're just saying like these things change and then the change You know, you kind of like take this you know time sensitive approach to saying how these things evolve within the context of the show recognize all that or Could you go for some kind of like not? I'm reaching for like unreliable narrator here But something wherein when we are in a scene with dr.

Jacobian private and he's listening to the tape what we're getting is like Like the presentation is such being this is the world in this like private sphere in this one sense and then the world being shown like Like this is like it's like getting close to the meta stuff without actually acknowledging like the production of the show But trying to just say like what if what we're getting in all these because the twin pieces of show that changes its tone so quickly from scene Or like you just have a comic scene with you know, Andy and Lucy in one sense and the next scene is dark twisted fucked up Whatever, um that itself is very important and you could play some kind of interpretive game And I'm not using game like I'm not trying to use game in a derogatory something like You can try and construct this thing whereby you say like twin peeks the show that is intentionally by virtue of having these characters as anchors Playing with the information it presents in genre very consciously to the point where and then you point to the tape is evidence Where even like what is presented verbally is not stable is not like immutable. It's in flux Yeah, I absolutely think that that works On a genre level and that's really interesting and that also reminds me of you just got me excited. Sorry. Okay.

Can I finish the thought? Okay, but it also works on a like psycho analytic interpretive level. I don't know if you know the affair on showtime at one like best Drama series at the Emmys this year But the point being and this is sort of like a gimmick in the show is that it's these scenes that are shown from two points of view So when these two characters meet it's about a care When it's from the man's point of view, you know, they meet and she's wearing a short skirt and her hair is down And then when it's shown from the woman's point of view, you know, she's wearing a very Drap outfit. He's being a creep.

Um, so playing with I could see those scenes in Twin Peaks being Being able to interpret them in a similar way Um, the other thing that I thought it was just like if I had to like write an essay I would absolutely do my best to stretch this into a parallel example of this tape thing is the minor bird when the minor bird is recorded Uh, we like see its last moments essentially right and go back and tear this apart You know listening if you want to but we see its last moments in it goes like laura laura and then boom We see the shot now you can say implied in between that more time passes where the minor bird says more that we then later here on the tape but Normal conventions of like how you shoot those kinds of scenes in the way it's presented. I feel like heavily implied that we're just seeing its final moments Laura laura boom Leo shoots the bird instead, but they go back to the tape But suddenly there are more characters in the room Um, well because they've been recording the bird all day, right? They have been recording the bird all day, but we not only do we go through scrub through and we have like the comic moments Uh like now like tragic conk moments of like Lucy and adi talking about the bird But then we get the laura laura and then there's more stuff that the bird says before it gets shot that like given the presentation It doesn't seem like fits in yeah. No, I see we're saying that's interesting that that's happening with the recording devices I do think that like um there's a little it's all dying That's the this is where you just like then you like cut it like because if you try to like this I didn't say like recording devices don't work Into the I know that's interesting, but then if we try to like actually explain what's happening like in the world It starts to get like that's just like me talking for a place of having listened to like the x-files files for like two hours today Um, but this actually gets a question that I wanted to pose for this uh podcast This is like piggyback and a lot of other stuff we've been talking about Um, how do we treat and how do we interpret the characters between peaks?

Do you know what I'm asking? No, okay, so um I like that's a broad question right so what I'm like specifically getting at is like there are like There is a spectrum of interpretive modes and you've kind of got the one formalist and where you're really talking about style and um aesthetics and like artistic choices And you're not really doing psychoanalysis in any sense or like talking about motivation or anything like that or characterization Um, and then that's obviously the other end of the spectrum Um, and I think that we've mostly been talking about the style aesthetic choices, um, but listening to the x-files files Which I do when I walk to and from work as I've been listening to a lot of that Um It's like pretty compelling Um, and I don't think that like the shows are comparable in that sense like they're doing different things with characters Which is I think why um we haven't been talking about them in the same way, but we did kind of get into that with Dale Cooper Yeah, um And I do think people Viewers generally kind of get the urge to do that with Laura Because like there is this sort of like dangling carrot of like the mystery of Laura And there's also there's a If he was seeing a doctor yeah talk therapy, um, so like that the existence of Both like the show in the in universe. There's this commitment to aesthetic. We have people who make conscious Dress choices and things we also have existing in universe the recognition of people's inner Goings on and mental processes and how that constrict was constructed character Um Recognized so both are like I say have their kind of totems in the show that allow for Interpretation and like you said we were talking about Dale from this perspective, but like How do we interpret them like how did how was like the cultural discussion happening in the 90s like I have a point back to that like fashion spread Um, and like who were the breakout stars?

Versus like the fact that how much can you actually find outside of like, you know, people's like strange like undergrad graduate? Theses that eventually like trickled out about twin peaks that are taking like different interpretive modes Like like actually putting that to paper as we might want to do like turning our brains towards putting it on the podcast I don't know my question is how do you want to interpret them? This is this a dramatic beat number one of our podcasts for this season finale is do you feel like we've been focusing too much in a certain way? Do you want me to start doing more like or do you personally want to start doing more like we're in terms of approaching these characters differently?

Um as we talk about them because I can do drape runner corner, which is kind of bleak this week. Yeah. Oh god That's gonna be more I can try to like be serious and take it on in a serious life Well, but I think to a certain extent like yeah Nadine's like inner thought processes that have led her on the journey We've seen stuff thus far rather than just make a joke out of it or talk about how cool her eyepatches Like yeah, we can we can we can well, okay And like I get what you're saying that like we can interpret it however we want to and that's kind of like the magic of like post-modern literary Interpretation, but there's also like a way that like the show is like like moving you to interpret it to get what I'm saying But setting up its own interpretive processes. I'm not saying I wasn't one I would never be like for the I would never go as far as like just consciously supply like post-modern we can interpret it however we want to know I'm saying I think the show actually like kind of does highlight these two different branches And I think that it moves maybe between them like for instance Nadine and Ed is played in the first like five six episodes very comic And like the story is solved Ed wants out of this relationship Nadine is Like obsessed with this weird thing and obsessed with Ed in this weird way and it's just like kind of played for last and then last episode Ed shows more care for Nadine Nadine Makes an attempt on her own life this episode in a very dramatic like not characteristic and not like funny way Which is the mode that she's existed in primarily?

I feel like the show consciously says like nope, it's time for you to start taking this Like not at this like, you know, not in this way But in not this like you know concerned with like the wacky characters of Twin Peaks and here's the slice of life of Nadine Way, but it's like these are also real people like if you've been giving anybody in the show credit for being close to real people Like we're gonna inject some of this in there in this where you didn't expect it Does that make sense like I see what you're saying but like the show plays with how it wants you to interpret characters at different times I see what you're saying. I for me. I feel like the show really skews aesthetic and it skews kind of um Oh, what's the word? Pestich it skews kind of passage um and I think that like one thing that I have been kind of thinking about and interested in is like Do the characters have a life off screen like between scenes?

Like do you get the sense that they're doing something? That's like not a part of the plot line because that's kind of like a good marker for like three-dimensional characterization and like A good sense of like an inner life of a character the one character who I think exactly Precisely does not exhibit a life off screen and you're gonna either agree with me or not very strongly Cooper. Yeah, I think Cooper Exists when we have eyes on Cooper and otherwise does not I think that's very fun but like Like I don't think it's the characters that people necessarily latch onto like you might want to say the same Like you might be inclined to say the same thing about Audrey But I think we see Shelley between having shot Leo in this episode um like It's not like she ends one scene in one emotional state and is still there the next like she has taken time to like regroup and recover In a little bit such that then she is shocked when Leo comes back like not just still in this state of like I'm terrified of what I did But I guess what I'm kind of thinking about in a certain sense is not just that but it also feels like all these characters To the audience have their cards on the table. There's nothing simmering under the surface that's kind of peaking um like I think a salient example from the x-files is Mulder's like porn addiction thing going on like that's very rarely explicitly commented on but it's just this like Low level piece of character development that like is a constant and like you can imagine you can imagine when he's not doing the x-files He's like watching porn and like sleeping on his couch and like that says a huge amount about his character and like what he's doing when you're not watching him Whereas all of the characters in tweet Twin Peaks have these secrets that the audience knows about and in their off time You just assume that they're like following up on these plans that you as an audience member know about Here's the thing we've yet to still get to one of the most like cringe worthy scenes of the whole show You know what I'm talking about don't it's musical in nature What?

James yes, okay I think sometimes when we get some of this what is like otherwise less consequential stuff thrown in but those two round out characters Sometimes I think maybe the show doesn't even do well, but it's like do we ever see where Truman lives? Like do we ever see Harry's apartment? No like a lot of these characters are defined like pretty much like first or second on the list of their traits is what their profession is Um that's not like yeah Mulder is an FBI agent But obviously he's so much more not even just by his like belief in the in the extraterritals like yeah Foreign VHS and the Fridge or whatever but like um and also I'm still early on the Xbox but I love it Mollies Sully's family has the like weird fixation with Moby Dick and Starbucks and people and all that anyway. Oh my god I love Quequag Uh, so Yeah, we don't so much get that stuff and you think that that's Well, I think okay, would you describe the show as character driven?

Is there only one way to have a character driven show? That's a gotcha question. That's a gotcha question. That's like where we're at Where I can be like here's not breaking bad is like really character driven and you have these like quiet moments with characters where like you see that Jesse almost called him Todd Because that's Aaron Paul's character's name in Bojack Horseman anyway, okay, um you see that like Well, like you have these like quiet moments with Jesse where you like really see like how he's like dealing with like his drug addiction and like his guild and stuff And so great.

It's a great example when he goes home and his brother is found with a skunk weed and he covers That moment in the grand scheme of the story of breaking bad means nothing but it means so much to who Jesse is yeah When we just talk about that, that's one of the things that rise immediately to mind and there's like a billion others. Does any character in Twin Peaks have that? No, a lot of it's like um, I don't it's not It's plot driven to a certain extent But can you think about so let's bring up lost again a show that there was lots of Twin Peaks in terms of being a show that is trying to uh be Primarily driven by a central mystery at least in terms of how it's pitched and how it grabs some portion of the audience's attention This is also a show that reveled in having flashback moments that Like sometimes would increase the mystery and be like evidence for like how they all brought together if they had these connections before But a lot of those pieces were pretty much just character Like a lot of that stuff and even like on the island lots of episodes Jack shit for the central mystery and the show ultimately you know Swear is skews towards not being so much concerned with its mystery So which is the kind of like vibe and feeling that in parts and the lives of its characters and what the experience that they went through Which is ultimately satisfying right? I think Twin Peaks comes out from a different angle where actually what matters to it is that it has a central mystery and characters that pop around that But it is not trying to bait you in with the mystery And then gets you to care about these characters that it never spent the time to develop I think it consciously developed characters to a different level Is what I would say yeah, it wasn't like I want to be a character driven show and then not know what it wants And I think the other important part is that um a lot of the like driving plot factors are actually external Laura like her death is external to all of these characters at this point as well as the darkness in the woods Um, and you know what parallel I want to draw here What pretty little liars Don't know how much about pretty little liars other than I remember in one uh for my frequent people were In the call out for the discussion thread like the headline was saying like it's like Twin Peaks It's actually um, it's really interesting because like pacing wise they feel very similar because you spend a lot of time with these characters and they're not really As much as it's about like secrets.

You don't get a lot of interiority Um, the secrets are like driving people to act rather than to reflect if that makes sense Yeah, there's also an FBI agent named agent Cooper Um, and I was multitasking so I had pretty little liars on while doing something else Um, and I heard them say agent Cooper and I suddenly was like I thought I had pretty little liars on Um, and then there was this great line where the FBI agent is leaving town And agent Cooper's played by a black actress in pretty little liars and she says I really love the food in this town I'm gonna miss this place I think one thing this came to mind if we're trying to figure out this kind of interiority and like Side traits that we can then apply to characters something we've talked about is that food occupies a weird role on this show? Yeah, but it's not necessarily an overstated role people We're fans of the show might like latch onto the pie and coffee thing a lot and we have some pie here that we will sample later But it's also like I think of the great Ben and Jerry the nice cream But they're a great moment with the brie and butter baguettes Where like that also like in the dialogue prompts them to like associate it with a memory from childhood And like the way in which they attack that food in the context where it is just like this this slow Family dinner that's interrupted like that's a moment But it doesn't want to throw those in all over the place It wants to be pacy and kind of you know Try and even if it's not intending to answer questions Dig away at the secrets of the town and other characters more than it is just telling you like and here's Lucy grocery shopping Like and then the thing happens um which would be amazing to see like that's a weird thing is that like I think I think you're bringing something I've never thought about and it's making me feel like This sense of money because I do know these characters so well, but right I don't But also I'm excited by the prospect of like what if we learned more? Yeah, well and like it would be a different show and this is obviously something that's coming out of um The leaning into like the self-obber genre And I think like what is so interesting about like the way that these characters are constructed and the way that straddles out like Two to one dimension dimensionality thing is like you do know these intimate things about the characters and that makes you really feel like you know them Um, but you know just like very limited things about them. Yeah, and they're plot relevant things.

Yeah Let's talk about the episode Glad we got that out of the way God also and it's a I'll say again It's another thing that if we revisit this conversation in like 10 episodes time You might be like everything's gone to shit and now we can't have you can't have it either way or anyway And I want to just like be upset with this show And it might be it might be mark frost doing as well. Um, can we talk about rather than the And again, I don't mean this in a dismissive sense, but the kind of airy up in the clouds What do we think of the sum of these characters as they're presented over the course of what we watched so far and And how that's being constructed. Can we talk about the very overt framing of hank in this episode with the fucking antlers on that mounted deer Looking like they're coming out of his head in the framing of the shot where yes, josey is like also shorter Uh, then hank, but it's intentionally framed from like below so that it's like he's towering over here with these like horns coming out of his head Mark Ross Not shells that um is that kind of vibe also and then like the whole blood foam Like again, I think if we want to talk about how characters are rendered again up in the clouds All things considered though hank doesn't get a lot of any like bandwidth in terms of being anything but blunt with his characterization Well, sing those for leo. Yeah, uh, yeah leos, which is we've talked about this before like the character development across genders but It's the I love that shot, but also just like I love it because it is like it's like a shower idea It's like a shower idea had for how to make character look bad How to clearly communicate because you can show a screenshot of that and I actually took it as a screenshot for this week's episode preemptively To anybody without any context and would be like that's a bad man, right?

That means it's not okay Sometimes the yeah sometimes the show with characters like leo and hank definitely doesn't even want to play the game of doing that kind of work in the writing and I won't say in the acting but in the writing and then plotting and then The things going into what we then take in as that character as a sum whole and trying to be like this character is around It's like no thanks the guy who Uh does all the bad shit supposedly killed Andrew Packard and then also killed a homeless person to stage manslaughter to have an alibi like That's how bad they're trying to make him look is like not only to kill someone for money And then it's like being threatening to the person who contracted him But his solution to an alibi was to kill yet another person and go to prison like you cannot like I'm a brother right now But you can't possibly make someone seem more evil than that without getting just straight up comical But I do appreciate The gender reversal of lack of character development like I know I like literally just said that but what I mean is like in another show like Hank and leo would have all of these motivations There would be all of these justifications for what they were doing and then you have a high spurt effect Yeah, well, and then you know, shelly would be two-dimensional shelly would be a skylar Uh like a two-dimensional nagging skylar Um, yeah, no, not saying high spurt effect is really like very bad doesn't give space to to the characters with this gender Like no, no, no, yeah, but just say like the fucking people who think that he's the the hero I was like, oh my god, can you shut up and never wear that t-shirt? Um, so we haven't talked about Audrey in this episode yet. We haven't we haven't talked about a lot of things in this episode In the podcast is going long, but let's talk about Audrey. It's very important that we do another look and Oh, wait, are we gonna call the the one I jacksept to look cuz I'm calling it a look I I don't know if we talked about this when we first encountered we really yeah, we did last year Yeah, you were like, what do you think of that outfit and I like didn't understand what you meant.

I was like, yeah, it's like I'm into it anyway, all the one I jacks outfits I don't see like how that's supposed to be sexy. I don't know Um, they all look vaguely like reggae and dolls or something. Yeah, it's really campy, but she looks really like ethereal Yeah, she she makes it out better with the like heavy emphasis on whites and lace and that kind of thing in the card card deck cocktail dresses Um, so the card that Audrey picks for I don't there's some important component of it Like it's sewed onto her outfit like they're all there all the girls just like aren't they all identified just by their their card and sweet Probably but also like then why why does the deck that blacky have like why is that a full deck because you think that you would just take out the cars that i'm Because because if Audrey picks one that's already been chosen she just gets killed right on the spot There we go. That's what's on the spot because they're just like oh you can try to cherry but actually this is the final test and you failed And we can't we can't have you blabbing about our uh brothel so bye Sorry, I'm tired.

Um, maybe we should have gotten coffee for the food. Well, well, we shouldn't have made it so late to record this Anyway, this is the seat This is well, this is setting up for the scene you were talking about in terms of Audrey's vulnerability, right? That is yes, but what I wanted to make note of was her choice of the queen of diamonds for the card So, I mean the obvious thing and I feel like every time I watch the scene I think this is what they're gonna do is like she's gonna pick the queen of hearts because she's like the cutest girl And she's like a harp do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, um like that's the obvious choice I think the queen of diamonds is like much more interesting.

I mean there's the obvious like Marilyn Monroe parallels diamond circles best friend anyway Um, but she's not she doesn't wear her hurt on her sleeve to borrow that cliche like she's a very inaccessible character Yeah, the the choice of the diamond Just hold on to that hold on to that symbol in your brain Okay, you specifically I yeah, I'll go listen or you yeah, okay, I go and we'll see if I even remember what I mean right now When it comes relevant again, but I think you can make an argument later on down the road of that having In universe implications. You know what the other thing about that card is though what so people are noting this on the use net boards So the Manchurian candidate which is a movie that has Denzel Washington in it and a movie before that that didn't have Denzel Washington in it Okay, yeah, it really pranks and not true within it, but anyway So in that movie which is like archived in the library of congress all this stuff um the whole premise is um Parodied in Zoolander, which is how something might be familiar with it Um, this guy is like trained to be an assassin and seize the card. Let's assume that people know that manchurian can't I didn't know what to say. Well, we gotta save some time on this long Okay, anyway, so the point is when he sees the card and the card is specifically the queen of diamonds Then he's like activated into assassin mode.

Um, so that's also interesting What do we call that parrotectual? Intertextual sorry. Yeah, that's what I meant. Yep.

Uh Yeah, Audrey God, I mean There's something about This is another yet another like cliffhanger drama moments where band horn is coming into the room to see the new girl and I'm just like I mean at a certain point Her luck has in a way run out her tenaciousness in terms of Digging up there on what she knows is her father's operation and that which she expects has some connection to Laura's death At a certain point moved things a little too fast and didn't stop to consider that Your father is the owner of the place It would not be unreasonable. I think to expect that this kind of thing is exactly the worst liability that could happen. Yeah but also like It's a weird like obviously you panic in this moment. You're trying to find a way out of it and whatever but it also is kind of The the choice to go after this is like the dramatic situation is kind of weird because I don't think thus far the Implication has been that this would Like be a life-threatening situation for Audrey for instance like the stakes of like are I think to me unclear like If she is discovered then what and that uncertainty is certainly something that can be panic-conferring do things and so forth But it's also just like as a viewer I'm just like this is Awful, but then it seems like the only way it can be resolved like the only way that the show is going to take this is that she Finds a way out of it.

Like that's like I think telegraph for them When they set up the scene because it's just like what does happen like you're my daughter Yeah, that's the discussion like that's the discovery and then what from there like the worst grounding of all time Like I don't know it's it Ben isn't yet painted as someone who would murder his own daughter for instance So it's not like a life-threatening thing being said. I don't know I don't know if I'm just rambling at this point, but I feel like there's something Off about this as like a setup for attention Yeah, I get what you're saying the stakes are pretty unclear, but it's also like Kind of like humiliating. There's like a shame aspect to it. I think Um that I think can be like pretty highly motivating.

We'll talk we'll talk more. I think we should focus more on this in whole next week. Yeah um So we've talked about Andy firing the gun. We've talked about me gene.

We talked about Hank and Josie Um, I want to really quickly just highlight a great moment when Pete and Catherine are talking Oh my god. It's manipulating Pete which is like I feel for Pete But just the dudes trying to eavesdrop like the whole like another okay Well, this is like a plus thumbs up. I love it Mark Frost the dudes just trying to hear their conversation and look into the room Throughout the entire scene just going pasting around this great room with the windows all around. I love that moment so much And I love it whenever like it sneaks up on me every time watching and I was like, oh wait, is this the Outro scene anyway, there's also a great moment when they're talking and he's just like leaning into like Pete is leaning into this Taxider me bear Just like in the embrace of the bear still one of my faves um and Pete so Milfire well, I was also gonna say like the Catherine Pete story is like kind of interesting the captain It's not like overly interesting, but it like explains a lot.

Yeah. Well, it puts it in much clearer terms Where their relationship stands? Yeah, um because it's it's Catherine has been thrust into the situation where she knows her life is being friend And approaches Pete and faines this connection and the great hug with her like exasperated face But for all that she still does not care for Pete knows Like trust Pete well enough to come to him with this information like she is maybe bullshitting about her feelings But she's kind of not hiding that she's in some deep shit and it suspects that that you know, something bad is hanging her Um and Pete's devotion is like, you know, I guess I won't get mink oil on my bed like no He still loves Catherine. Yeah, that is made of one leaguer Because he runs into when oh my god, so the whole mill thing the thing that this that this season builds up too.

Yeah, uh, shallies Put in there by leo leo leo is apparently at least a scale enough arsonist to make that timer bomb It's playing to also try and get bobby like into the mill to burn to death or just shoot or no just just kill bobby I guess everyone's supposed to be in the mill to die. Um, yeah, cuz it Catherine's there keep runs in Um, it's a clusterfuck of the mill. Yeah Well, and I think it's like kind of a redeeming moment for Catherine when she she saved Shelly because she Laughter and then she could have just untied her and been like you're on your own But she grabbed Shelly and pulls her out of there and is thinking about how to get both of them out of the burning mill Um and she doesn't know who Shelly is is the other thing. She's not like oh, yeah I see you around yeah or anything like that Catherine doesn't seem like the type to stuff in the double arm much Um, yeah, I don't see does she even like pie or coffee doubt it.

Oh, she totally loves coffee. You know it Um, probably not because Pete loves coffee and also if you live with Pete, there's a good chance that official ends up in the percolator Right, so you might get turned off the coffee. You're right. Um, and then there's that um Complicated web of double crossing so the notes that I have from watching this two days ago are bobby and mike So they're taking orders from leo leo taking orders from jock And then there's maybe someone above that and cooper is kind of pretending to be that person Uh, at one ijax but then leo is also taking orders from hank taking orders from then yep So there's just like every every bad thing that's like not even the half of it though and like Hank is contracted to josey.

Yeah, he's contracted then but is it the same and like yeah Catherine's in there It's a mess. Yeah, it's a mess and it's weird So a mutual acquaintance of ours I talked to about the show quite recently who we're hoping to have actually Maybe come on for a segment of the podcast at one point or maybe a whole episode or something Um, you know what i'm talking about price don't like yeah, yeah, this doesn't work out Uh, but he brought up to me He's probably had to say to get what like semi-headspinning because it's just like another way you can Another perspective from which you can just oppose the show In terms of analyzing it is look at the show as having a particularly ecological statement or like environmental statement with the fact that actually For all that's going on with laura Um, a lot of that is immediately adjacent to the question of what is going to happen to this mill in a town that seems Quite heavily supported by logging. Yeah with the encroaching investment of big money from outside of america And you know specifically from like the normal regions and the jasque Yeah, um like what's going on there if you realize if you take a step back and you not realize but you decide to conceptualize that as being the central Focus of season one which can make a very good argument for yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense I mean that kind of also gets at the like americana themes the kind of small town you vibes um and the The darkness in the woods like what the town lives with takes on a different sense When you are just like if you want to consider this town is right now a prime spot for like take over from outside forces Yeah, um in a very literal sense where yeah, they want to build a country club Where the jobs were yeah, uh Class wrapped up in it Like there's a lot going on there that we should maybe leave for for future episodes. Yeah, I think that'll be around Just being a double crosses Uh, so leo goes to get bobby and bobby i think Quite admirably but very obviously in effect she tries to easily way out of it He's like oh leo i was just looking for a little He probably should have just run like i want bobby to be smart enough to just run uh, but I just uh And this is like maybe one of the most Um like like the the initial pan Uh over jacobie's office.

I really like the the lingering of when leo is shot on these television turned silent to invitation to love Yes, um again my frost but also very nice enjoyed it a lot that moment Um, yeah, we should also leave time in the future like action. We should go like How familiar are you with the Simpsons No, I've seen that one episode you'll see you'll see where i'm going with this quite shortly Have you are you familiar with the character mik bane? Big bane is there like short-center stand in um and Throughout a couple seasons there are episodes that start with them watching a mik bane movie Okay, um in the show but then actually those clips like have an ordering to them Yeah, and then like kind of like there's selected scenes from this one mik bane movie Um, and it's like kind of like I mean it's a take off a bunch of different movies but kind of like die hard um Uh, I want to do that with the clips from invitation to love Where it's like wait, can we actually like trace what's going on here? Like do we see a dramatic progression that we can more closely map to the events between these characters or is it just like the obvious Parallels and then it's just like someone gets shot when leo gets shot It's like the back of the back on the letter deck gets shot when leo gets shot Like is there is it doing a little bit more like we're gonna just having the characters were obviously analogues and then having similar things happen to them Is there like a sequence of events also that I bet that's on the internet already And I want to see that there's another show that did that same thing the thing that you were just talking about with sense I can't remember what it is.

Oh You shouldn't even admit that because normally you're the tv expert you shouldn't ever say that you Think there's something about tv that you don't know I'll go find it out later than that anyway And leo I mean leo's fate is uncertain yes, but we did the we he was shot earlier this season So it's not really a cliffhanger. So um, but someone's is not leelind's Hospital Pulls a one foot over the coo-coo's nest on jock-rennel. Yeah, goodbye jock-rennel And something that people are talking about on these netboards is like how did leelind know what he knew in order to do that? Because he just shows up at the police station is like is it true you have a suspect who told him that?

Who was this leak in the police department that's telling him these things? And then doc Hayward is the one who's like me neither the hospital or whatever Presumably there are more people than that in the hospital leelind just goes on a smothering spree Just everyone who's bedridden when that fire alarm goes off is just dead. Yeah So it's a question like how he knew who to find kind of I have to like I would just like I don't know a lot about when criminals are checked into hospitals, but I assume there's maybe like a paper trailer like obvious signs it could have followed and I don't Maybe there was a strange tape recorder left in the lobby that says it no um Yeah Goodbye jock Is have we covered the have we covered all the poppies so Audrey's I mean the mills on fire big thing. Oh right Concerning the star of the show that I Yeah, so the only one who gets shot Yeah, but we want to say about that Cooper gets shot.

Yeah, well, I do know what I want to say about this 24-hour room service must be one of the premier achievements of lobby civilization another great line That's yeah, well, I mean that's like for all the other stuff though. Like that's an eventual cliffhanger Yeah, like maybe it wasn't done much before this. I don't know how common of a trip it was was just like uh season cliffhanger is one of the main characters gonna survive having just been shot but Yeah, the bill fires like infinitely more interesting is a is a cliffhanger type setup and also then I guess like I would say Audrey's situation because it's so The stakes are uncertain and so unconventional and so unusual that's also like more like oh shit right in a way than just like okay, well He got shot. I wonder what's gonna happen to well, so um people on the use net boards are Comparing this to dallas.

Okay, who shot jr? Um and people on the use net boards are actually like kind of upset about this episode and not into it Um, but let me someone compiled a list of all the cliffhangers Let me just read them to you. Okay, who shot Cooper? What was an Audrey's?

No, what'll happen when Ben sees the new girl will Nadine survive will jacobie survive? Will James land in jail is Andy the father did leo die did Montana die? Will Pete survive will Catherine survive will shelly survive will Bobby be caught will Cooper survive who killed Laura? Will Truman find out about Josie will Andy do right by Lucy?

Is Josie head in over her head with Hank will Pete and Catherine reconcile will Leland be found out will run out wake up? Will Norma wise up to Hank will Cooper learn of Madeline's existence? Will Jacobi learn of Madeline's existence? Learn of Madeline's existence will Dr.

Lydacher wake up will killer Bob reappear Wow, so but Montana Montana made it in there um It's a lot it's a lot that's I think a pretty preful recap of what what's happening there We should just read that now it's the whole podcast probably no one coming to us for our insightful analysis, right? No, no everyone is Um, so do you want to hear a couple of choice quotes when you use netboards besides that? Uh, I do Yes, okay. Does anyone else feel that last night's show was the worst stinker of the series?

Harsh people are not into this episode I mean like there are people who are into it, but there is like a disproportionate number of people saying like That this is not how they wanted this year's finale to end um particularly because uh some people were saying that this is like a characters were like out of character that this is like too conventional of uh the cliffhangers are too conventional plot devices um I mean This shows like rife with conventional plot devices. Yeah, the whole thing is that it like I mean I guess you could be like Yeah, it is but then like they didn't do these one interestingly. It's like, okay Maybe it's hard because like of course when I watch a shot is just like well, I'll play the next episode Uh, maybe I would have been you know kind of teed off because like I sit and see what they're thinking like it's gonna be year before I see more trim Like a lot of people were in mortal danger. Yeah, like that's cheap um but I feel like it's earned most of those and also that I wouldn't actually be too concerned about a lot of those like there could be losses Of certain characters who are currently in danger.

It's like, you know Like does dr. Jacoby for instance have anything more to contribute to this Like good. Maybe not Uh, do I consider that the total cliffhanger then? Not really.

Do I want to know who assaulted him? Yes, do I kind of like Also like are they just gonna put the mill far out? Like no, like there's there's certain things. There's just like yes This is like a catalyst is a big moment and then like but I don't consider it to be like the quintessential payoff It's like or the quintessential Put hanger in need of a payoff like the mill's fate is decided.

I'm not worried. It's about the people in it Jacoby's fate for instance. Like I don't really care about I couldn't can assume that Lucy and Andy's pot thread won't be dropped Um, it will go on so you know There's there's things to be really worried about and one of them I will say is not Cooper Like Cooper getting shot. I would not look at and be like well Bye, Kyle with lockman.

It was a nice run Like two pieces a lot of things and it does a lot of things that other shows even today will dare to tread but Killing off the star is something that I think how many shows have done. Can you think of any? It happens, but It's it doesn't happen like this. Yeah, like when when like a league actor gets shot and it's like that actor's like the big draw for the series They're not gonna die.

You know that they're contracted for two more seasons You're gonna keep seeing them like that actually happens a lot with the shameless where people are like, ah Frank's finally gonna die and it's like The network loves capitalizing on William H. Macy. They're never gonna take him off of the show. Yeah And why would they find actor?

He is which they would give him some better material. That's a different story So there are two theories that I'm gonna share with you from this week the first is that um Twin Peaks is actually a show that the people from invitation to love are watching Um, no reason to believe that just a thought I guess um, I'll take that and then um Here's a theory on what's gonna happen to Cooper. So pretty much everyone is assuming that Cooper went into his sting operation at one I jacks wearing a bulletproof vest So someone says let's just suppose that's not happening So Cooper I'm reading the post now Cooper has been shot. He's not wearing his bulletproof vest shame on him dying He's Russia's hospital while he lies in a coma.

We dive into his unconscious subconscious once more as he has one of those notorious near death experiences He drifts away from his body and just long dark tunnel There's no light at the end but several people are sitting in chairs awaiting their turns to go in Nadine is there Cooper talks to her. She's going to greener pastures after all She does however have a twin cousin a la Cooper's dream who turns out to be blackie Oh my god, the madam of one eye jacks Cooper doesn't get much out of this and moves on jockets out of his chair and says they're calling for me They're taking me away. I have nothing more to say to you agent Cooper That's a better rewrite Hello Now things get interesting he begins to have conversations with the other uh patients interned at the hospital in the near-death world He talks to jacobie. He discovers lie decor leo gives him something to think about From the clues they give him From clues they give him he determines that neither leo nor jacobie killed laura now comes the good part run at pielaski She's bills the beans what beans why who killed laura of course only maybe it wasn't laura Um what behind the receptionist desk is a woman who looks like laura as it turns out it is her twin cousin Madeline Wait, what?

Yeah, um Okay, Madeline spells the real beans Cooper wakes up in the murder of Madeline Ferguson is solid. Oh Okay, I see what's going in There's actually a really interesting episode of um 6 feet under that's a little like that I like that that theory just quickly devolves into fanfiction I will give it credit for at least having the awareness about the show to assume that Cooper experiencing a traumatic event can be a catalyst for diving back into the dangling carrot of what the hell happened at the end of episode three And what was that and how are we meant to interpret that? Yeah? Um the because that I think is ultimately where the show And it's not a spoiler to say moves on from here Is that it's and this is where it's like my mind has been changed by that friend of ours dropping that comment Where it's like yeah, we were talking about how the book house boys are like kind of at the Like they like get forgotten about for a couple episodes and the whole thing about the darkness in the the woods gets forgotten about And the focus just shifts towards you know, what's up with jacobie?

What's up with leo? Can we find a murderer? Um, but actually it's building towards this this catastrophe at the mill and all the double crosses and just like the like Complicated yet. It's all just like very Pretty clear motivation criminal stuff going on like money In you know, ten different ways and murder in this many ways um But from here the show's focus is just like wait, but actually all that stuff we set up We have ideas.

Yeah, we know where that's You know, we know a direction we want to pull that in Um This is the end of season one and I think it's interesting to maybe spend a little time thinking about like You know What if season one was it because before they they had confirmed the season two and season two, you know assuming like It could have just been this it could put peaks in another timeline in the baron steamed timeline Twin peaks could have just been this one season. Yeah, and then there's no like room for uh, the I mean, there's like room for cult appreciation stuff, but a lot of what people latch onto is Very thinly represented at that point in the show. Yeah, the thing you get the like the the black lodge It's iconic you get it for just a sliver. Yeah Well, and I think that like what I could see happening in that sense is I could see the uh tv movie version gaining like some traction and some following but I think it would be very hard to like watch just these you know episodes from the first season and feel like invested or feel like a sense of payoff or You know, I mean as much as I like the season like I would be mad if this was it.

Yeah, we can talk about when we finally reached the end of season two about you know What did happen and and how that experience itself can feel complete or incomplete? Um, But at least by the end of the second season. I was just watching today. Uh, I was posted on the like what's it called the official twin peaks?

um cast site cast site yes a clip of David Lynch on David vitamin at the time when I mean lynch goes on letterman, which is on cds Not a bc where twin pieces is showing at the time and says, uh, hey, please send your mail to iger The like head of programming or whatever a bc tell that you want to see the show. Um, you know, he says like I think wednesday at 10 would be a good time And I don't know quite like I don't know what on the 10 but like there was like chuckles about that In turn to the recommend time slot, but they were putting twin peaks on the weekend and table They said I think people who are into this show are party people and they don't want to be in party people It says they're party people go watch it. That's great. Uh, and I don't think I don't think they want to be in A house on a saturday.

I think we would do much better on a weekday And it's like of course like he doesn't want the death slot Yeah, but they were making the show knowing full well at that point because it's a longer production run. They're doing 22 episodes So the writing's on the wall in a sense while they're still producing the show. Yeah, um Uh, so the season two can kind of be shaped accordingly. Um, and it makes for a different experience, I think Especially that finale, um, which I still can't believe you have like it can't like that's the thing is that I can be like, oh, it's so You know, whatever that you haven't seen this the back half of season two But you also haven't seen the finale.

I know what happens. You know what happened. I know what happened But I haven't seen it. I know I know I know and we're gonna find out That's when we get there once from now.

I know but it'll be a lot better on the podcast if we can If we can what I'm not if I can be fresh when this happens Okay, it'll be a different date. Okay. Yeah. It's a good thing that you stop working that job where episodes of twin peaks were like Uh Every week it was running right up against what I had seen.

Yeah, so just don't drop by there and yeah Linger running those episodes if you want to stay fresh, which I appreciate and I thank you very committed to your your role Um, the soon well not soon like in a while to be new Uh, the certain aspects I can't wait for when we have to do the episode on all the footage that didn't make it into um Sorry fire walk with me because I saw him seeing that and I can save that and we'll both have a better experience Um, and who the hell knows what that's gonna be like because we'll do that after fire walk with Yeah, that's gonna be um, I also I said this before I'm just gonna say again. We should definitely do moholland drive Would you ever seen sure? This is a tween peaks podcast. Okay.

It was gonna be a back door pilot for a show about Audrey We should do dune because I have a fan theory that uh What's his name? At at Reyes? Anyway, you know it kind of a lot of characters in those in those universes are the same. Oh, that's my fan theory Okay, if you play Laura's second last tape backwards, it lays it all out.

Um, despite my flow, uh, I'll have to go home and do that Production notes on this one. I didn't really have any um, just use of red and that um It was mark frost only episode eight directed. Okay, uh, then let's just do our food segment Damn fine food Uh this week it is um, what did you say? mary and berry pie?

Yeah, mary and berry pie that you picked up at new seasons So is this the second pie from new seasons that we've done on the show? We're at the final place in town that's actually known for its pie in a sample. Um, but oh, please don't please don't give Forch craving sounds. I'm sorry on the podcast.

Just eat your pie very gently. Um, it's been singing for like hours because we I know I can't like a lot of get recording You just want to enjoy it. Yeah, I can't pick it up trying to eat it. Um, does everyone do all the listeners know what mary and berry is?

What um, well, do you know what mary and berry is? I guess I don't it's just a special strain of blackberry. Okay Yeah, I guess I didn't know that but it only grows well, it doesn't only grow in Oregon But let's like grow in an Oregon I'm gonna have to keep vamping though while you eat because I'm not gonna go back and edit out like long sciences of us both eating pie Like that's not gonna happen. I'm not gonna put that much effort into it.

I'm gonna eat this Yeah, so I'm just gonna have to talk about the experience of sitting here while eating this pie, which is really funny for me But also the more I make you laugh while you try to eat this the slower you're gonna be So I've got that to consider. Um, do you like this better than the apple pie we had? Uh, yeah Um, I was not a pie fan growing up. Um, and I think it's because like I think Tell me if I'm way off base here, but I feel like to make a really good apple pie is really hard Like really hard Because you can just have it be like gross unappealing apple chunks in like watery apple sauce is the filling But like berries like lend themselves like nice flavorful pie filling.

I think better Anyway, yeah, I learned things about blackberries this time You have just a little bit of cross-left. So can we just can you talk about your experience the pie now? I'll take another bite and then we'll finish up the segment. Okay, great finish chewing finish laughing finish laugh chewing, please I'm sorry.

Your mom is listening to this right now and worried that you're gonna choke. Okay, and this very moment is she's listening She's worried that you're gonna choke on some pie Yeah, she's gonna like call me about this pie too You're not gonna get the wrong idea that you really like nieces is pie and then like then like somehow hook you up with like a gift card To nieces is gonna be like it's for the pie that you like so much. I would take a gift card to nieces. Yeah, I guess that's true Um that being said, please send your gift cards to new seasons to our PO box.

Just contact us for that information Our PO box that we totally have for all the fan mail that we get for this podcast. I will say though. Yeah, that's damn fine. Bye.

Oh, yeah Yeah, is that all we have to say? Yeah, no, I like this pie Um, they sell it. That's it. I'm putting my foot down.

This is a dramatic moment in this podcast Food segments done. We're never doing it again Okay, I'm gonna shoot this food segment And it's gonna turn out next week that damn fine food's had a pull-up proof vest on and it will survive if only because Though the pie was great this week. I still want to sample more donuts We still have donut places a plenty in town to sample that we do and coffee rusters We're not going to do the one that you're maybe thinking of that's associated with Portland. Oh god I wasn't even thinking about that.

I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the listeners right now if you're thinking of a particular donut brand that like is like the Portland donut and they have a like vaguely I mean, I was like Arguably culturally appropriate of name and they have boxes of a distinctive color that you'll see people carrying at the airport and carrying at the big bookstore in town Not gonna fuck and eat those donuts. We're not gonna give those donuts Any of our time other than for me to just be ruthlessly mean about them right here right now those donuts ain't shit You just painted a picture of all of my least favorite things about Portland Hey, I'm gonna go to go to this party at an apartment at Burnside 26 later It's really cool. They've got kegs in a lobby and stuff just there for the residents seems really dope.

Oh, is it like craft beer? Oh, it's craft beer It's craft beer and are you gonna like go have you heard of an II II IPA? No Well, I have anyway Um What else do we have to add to this week? It's already Is the latest how well yeah, we didn't add that you heard at the top of the show at the top of the show when I do that I am always saying when we're actually starting the recording so it's late now Do the math Yeah, and a season one and we made it this far as podcasters.

I feel like we should pat it Give ourselves a pat on the back or something for we've been like pretty good to it. Yeah, that out there. Yeah, uh otherwise. Hey Um, I'm Matthew Olson.

You can find me on twitter at Matthew Olson Spell it right. I do another podcast from a friend keon best. It's called can you get to that? You can find that at can you get to that?

simplecast.fm If you enjoyed say some of these dumb fan theories Uh about Twin Peaks or when I insisted that we lived in different timelines You might be interested in the episode we did about John Titor Um, it's a Wikipedia game podcast so we pick a topic and we play the Wikipedia game to get to it and John Titor is this like supposed A time traveler. Oh shit. All this stuff gets together. I think it's real funny Got to record another one tomorrow.

That's why I have going back to back podcast back to back podcast actually what about you? um, I'm at Ashley Brandt on twitter and um Hopefully in the near future, I'm gonna have a podcast with our friend Taylor the Grown called the K-hole And it's going to be about drugs It's gonna be on the vice. No, um, it's gonna be about the Kardashians We're just waiting for them to announce when the new episodes are premiering at this point Also, you gotta get set up with the right equipment, right? We're working on that.

Yeah, we're in the process. Let me know how recording remote goes We're gonna figure that out. Yeah Because who knows maybe there'll be a time when we need to do that. Whoa Just saying Aren't you gonna also then if that goes well start another Uh podcast called straight white male.

Yeah, I really like that idea Um, so keep keep an eye out for that and then uh, I have another idea for a podcast though Okay, well you can't have I think it's a little unreasonable if you have four podcasts at this point Uh You there's time there's time for all these podcasts. Well, one of them would be a seasonal podcast where me and um Sandra Deanda, um our friend who is a comedian in Portland. We would talk about the Oscar Okay Yeah, that is very seasonal. Okay.

Uh otherwise that's It I just feel weird because we didn't crack two hours on this episode It would seem very us to do that on the finale or like somehow we're like forgetting something But you literally read through a lot of the fingers do draper on a corner because 19 Swallows a bunch of pills this episode. It's not funny to be like oh my OTP Like the subject matters a little too grim for me to do the bit This might be the the death of grape runner corner. That's true And I guess you'll have to just tune into a future episodes of this podcast to find out if I find humor in that Ted worse Again, or if I ever like pretend to be david lynch marching into the room. Sorry.

I should say If david lynch ever comes back to the podcast. I shouldn't Shouldn't make pretend like I'm him Ashley do you have anything to add before science? No, okay, these grapes are right on it I think we're gonna do that one No, we should set up the old time That's not right