The Madame of Mayhem

Hi, I'm Holly and I'm Haley. Welcome to Mountain Mysteries Tales from Appalachia. Ready. Welcome back everybody.

Hello. I want to start out this podcast by giving a shout out to five ladies who are my colleagues, who have found the podcast and are huge fans. They have been listening and they're now in our inside jokes. They're like, yeah, I probably just sewn drugs the tavern in your past life.

Maybe. Maybe. That's right. Doing tater sack races or all of those things that we've talked about.

They are fantastic. They are huge supporters of us and me. So, yay. Thank you guys.

They also gave us some story ideas. This is where I got the story today. So I'm going to give a huge shout out to Elizabeth. Thank you for this story.

Thanks, Elizabeth. And Sydney, who wants to be our research assistant, she has offered. And I said, heck yeah. We have this is a dream that we've had for a really long time.

So she said that she would be willing to do it. And she was actually, I was with her. She was looking up stories and was like, have you guys on this one? Have you guys on this one?

And it was fantastic. I was like, no, we haven't done this one. What we did do that? We don't think we can pay you.

I know. That's the problem. But she said that she would be, she just loves to do the research. She would love to do it.

Yeah. We'll send you an awesome send them to the email. She's pretty awesome. So they're all pretty awesome.

So we shout out. But last week, Kaylee, you attempted us. Oh, I did. A story.

I alluded to a story. And then you stopped yourself and you're like, no, no, no, I'm going to wait. We're going to wait. So it's been a week and I'm losing my mind.

So what's the story? Okay. So my coworker and she'll kill me for telling the story, which is fine. She doesn't live.

So it's fine. I won't say her name, but my coworker, she traveled over spring break and went to a beach and was surfing because she's a crazy person. I love her. But during this event, she got sung by a stingray got barbed in the foot by a stingray.

Like the bar was in her foot. So she gets out of the ocean, she like gets the bar about and is like all those things that people she's with are like, you know, it's probably fine. You know, you've got the thing like no big deal kind of thing. So she goes on with life, comes back to work, shows us like a picture of her foot from when it happened.

I'm like, Oh my God, that's crazy. I don't know anything about stingrays or how stingrays work. Oh my God, that's nuts. How is it now?

And she shows me her foot and it still looks pretty bad. And I'm like, Oh, that's not great. And so we kind of move on. Something can like heal like it's not like a hole in her foot.

Kind of thing. I'm like, that's not great. And then over the next few days, you're a good friend. She's like hot.

And now she's notoriously cold. She has a space heater running all the time. Yeah, notoriously cold. I'm just like, I'm burning up and like we kind of made a show quickly.

It's probably the stingray venom in your foot. And she's like, you know, it has been hurting. It hurts really bad. And I'm like, take a shoe off and see, she's like, I don't want to.

Bad. And I'm like, she's been wearing like socks and a shoe. Yeah. And I'm like, take off her shoe.

And she's like, nope, I'm not gonna do it. I'm like, trick it off. So I was like, Oh, knock her down. Look at it.

So she did. She takes off and it's like, clearly infected, clearly infected. And I'm like, she has to know you need to go to the doctor. Yeah, you need to go.

So she's like, okay, so she calls gets an appointment and just out of like, you know, curiosity. I'm like, let me just tip and tap on over to the Google real quick. Because that's what I would do if I was somebody. Right.

And the first thing I would do after being stung by stingray, like what could happen? But your shoe back on and go to work. What do you do? The first thing that pops up when you Google what to do if you get stung by stingray says seek medical attention immediately.

It's now then almost a week since she has been stung by the stingray. I'm like, your foot's gonna fall off. And like, like, go to the doctor. Yeah, she goes, she gets the antibiotics.

She does things. Today at work, I was like, let me see the foot, how's it doing? How we doing? She's like, I'm on the second round of antibiotics.

It looks remarkably better, but it's still not well. And so like, you should probably go back to the doctor. So she did get an appointment and went back and I haven't heard. But I will text for an update.

I think it's important to find out. Yeah. I'm gonna say, how was the doctor? Yes, but knowing her should probably say, he's well, he's well.

No, no, no, no. How was your foot? How is it still a touch? Yeah, so, you know, if you're listening, she's not.

But if you happen to be, I'm really proud of you for getting your foot looked at and listeners, if you ever get sung by a stingray, please seek medical attention. Exactly. Quickly. Exactly.

So it has been just kind of a, you know, progression, I would say, of the stingray incident. Well, yeah, that's another reason. Don't go surfing. Don't go surfing.

Don't go out in the woods. Seems like a lot of risk. Oh, I do want to tell you a side note. Yeah.

So about two weeks ago, and I said, Hey, leave a video of this, my son and I were talking about Bigfoot. Oh, yeah. And I don't know where that came from in him. He just started talking about Bigfoot and he was like, you know, Bigfoot lives out in the woods.

And I was like, yeah, honey. And he was like, we don't go in the woods. That's damn right. We don't go out in the woods.

But he was just talking about Bigfoot. And I said, you know, Auntie Haley wants to marry Bigfoot. And he said, no, no, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think she should marry Bigfoot.

So I said, her, this video of us talking about Bigfoot. And I texted it to her and Haley said, that's not cool. He is dashing like my relationship goal. But he very much said, no, I know, I hate to break us in my current partner, but my heart belongs to Bigfoot.

Sorry. And speaking of that, Haley found him at the beach. I did find Bigfoot at the beach. I said, Holly, a picture of me and Bigfoot.

It was outside of a random little beach shop. I didn't know that he preferred the beach. No, it's where I see that. I mean, it was vacationing.

Outer banks, yeah, it was vacationing. And it was really special. Those it was a beautiful moment. The couple, I can't say enough, you know, big hairy beast with some t-shirts for sale behind him and Haley.

It was really special. I see the wedding now, anyway. It'd be very hairy. Yeah.

So with the children, maybe they'd be redheads. I don't know. It'd be a lot of moaning. You're like, oh, little Bigfoot's hungry.

Yeah. No, I think that's a bill of no kids relationship. If you want to marry him, you have to, you know, pursue all avenues. I mean, consummate the relationship.

You have to. I mean, then your marriage is kind of null and void. It's kind of part of it. Yeah, maybe.

Maybe. Yeah, think about that. I mean, maybe he'll just be a friend. A close friend.

Maybe a confidant. You can share all your, because he's not telling me, but he's like, he just moans and, you know, he's a grunts. He's not telling me about your secrets. Maybe he'd be my therapist.

They'll be great. I think that's better. I wonder if you would utilize like a CBT model. Oh, maybe a shtolt.

Maybe. Maybe we do that. What's the light to the. Oh, and the art.

That's the one. Oh, maybe some, maybe some tapping. Tapping. Yeah.

That would be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

He's really missing out on a career. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be great at that.

I mean, thanks. Okay. Are you ready for a story? I am so ready.

And like I said, my colleague Elizabeth gave me this story. It's great. And it's insane. All right.

So my colleague Elizabeth actually knew this person that the story is about. So yeah, we're going to be bouncing a little location wise, but stick with me. It's worth it. All right.

So we are headed to Avery County, North Carolina, which is a gorgeous place, smack dab in the middle of the mountains. Very scenic, very beautiful. Also Appalachian State University. That's right.

In Boone. In the Boone area. That's right. We actually did an episode called Brown Mountain Lights, which is also in this area.

So a lot of history. I'll be traveling that way. Next week. Are you really?

I have a training. Actually, at Appalachian State University. Fantastic. So we're taking a day trip.

Sounds great. So it's a, it's a journey. Yeah. It'll be fun.

It's not too bad. It's not terrible. Yeah. Yes.

Something like that. Yeah. But Kirby Road. It's very, very curvy.

Yeah. Yeah. Not excited about that part. Now that's hard.

Yeah. Not unless you're driving. I will be driving. Oh, that's better.

Yeah. So this is where we meet Joyce McKinney. Joyce was born in 1949 and raised in this area. As a teen, she moved to Wyoming, where in 1973, she was crowned Miss Wyoming.

Yeah. So Joyce was a stunning woman. Clearly. She had blonde hair, exceptional features and a really good body.

All the things that folks say about me, sands the exceptional features in the good body. So more like blonde. They don't say any of those things about me. To be fair, they say every six weeks, blonde.

So yeah. Got it. Got it. Yeah.

So I mean, she had a lot going for her. But I digress. By the mid 1970s, Joyce moved to Salt Lake City, Utah, where she was enrolled at Brigham Young University. Oh, nice.

Yes. Joyce was a devout Mormon at this point. She had converted to Mormonism. So she's living in Salt Lake.

She's like to the Mormon. Yes, you can. That's not common. Not usually.

You're usually born. That's why that caught me off guard. Yeah. Okay.

But she converted. She felt called and led. So she was now a devout Mormon and she was living in Salt Lake and attending Brigham Young University. And she was majoring.

She was getting actually her PhD in drama. Cool. PhD. So like not only is she very attractive, but she's also smart.

Yeah. So good for her. It was at university where she first met fellow student Kirk Anderson. Joyce was 25 at the time and Kirk and undergrad was a mere 19.

So legal, you know, some age difference. Joyce and Kirk started dating and according to reports had a romantic liaison at least once. So it's just a nice way of saying they did the D hooked up. The nasty.

Wow. They have a dippity. The boom boom. Yeah.

Yeah. Why, you know, why would you care if they were engaging in sexual activity as well? You see nice Mormon girls and boys did not have intercourse outside of marriage. This was really frowned upon.

Right. That's a no. No. Yeah.

Yeah. So there was some shame associated with this and Joyce claimed that, you know, through this boom boom, she got pregnant. Another big no, no. Mary.

Oh, now she's pregnant. I mean, that's unfortunate. Yeah. It is because it kind of leaves you with several options like, you know, now we're just going to have to get married or, you know, when we do what's the plan here?

There's, yeah, there's a lot of stuff involved. You're going to quit school. Right. Yeah.

So well, Joyce claimed that she ended up miscarrying the child. So there is this question of was she actually pregnant? Right. Because according to the story, their liaison, their boom boom, only happened once or twice, not saying that you can't get pregnant.

Right. She's young and fertile, but still. Right. So Kirk was pretty much beside himself with guilt.

So he went to his church and he confessed to the elders that he had sex with Joyce outside of marriage. The church elders felt that it was best for him to get away from Joyce as she would continue to be a temptation for him if he stayed. I mean, okay. Yeah.

Sure. Here's an idea. Just keep your pants on. Yeah.

Just also self control. And I think it would have been fantastic to maybe pray with him and pray for some self control. And and I'm just kind of glad that I mean, not that they're sending anybody away, but they said it looks in her way. It's truly that's true.

Get rid of the temptation. No, they they decided to send him away and they encouraged him to do missionary work overseas, but not to tell Joyce where he was going. So you need to secretly go tell others about the Lord. Whether they want to hear about it or not.

And essentially, you know, you do the nasty with someone, you get pregnant, you get a little and then you ditch her. Then you got to run. Yeah. It's just to tell people about the Lord.

Yeah, forcefully. Sometimes aggressively. It's true. That's true.

You ever had somebody knock on your door? Absolutely. It's wild times as Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. I really have only had the Jehovah's Witnesses. They knock on my door.

Yeah. They do. They're always unvisive. I feel really bad because I often hide.

I know they're just doing what they feel called to do. And there's a part of me that goes guilty about it. I get it. I see them coming up the driveway and I'm like, I wanted those movies where you like duck thunder away.

Nobody's home. Nobody's home. I get it though. I just don't want it to be weird.

It's a weird interaction. Like, I feel like I need to be polite to them, but I'm like, I've already found the Lord. Like we're tight. I know that you're thinking yours is a little different.

And to be truthful, I don't know what more they could do for you. Right. You know, I'm not the one. No.

Maybe my neighbor though. You should give them their phone number. I'll call them immediately. Sure.

Yeah. I will. You said, I know a lady. She's in a gated community, but she loved to see.

She would. Randy would also love to hear about just a bicycle wheel spinning. Yeah. Stop.

Stop. Stop. We're creating our own fantasy of an episode featuring Randy. That's all we want to do.

That's a poor Randy. This poor guy has no idea. I thought he listens. No.

There's no way. No. Don't. Don't.

Don't. Because I'll be so embarrassed. Oh my gosh. Okay.

So by this point, Joyce was pretty obsessed with Kirk and his absence was not taken well. In fact, Joyce hired a private detective to find him. Oh, God. Maybe she thought he'd been disappeared.

Maybe. Maybe so. Maybe she thought that, you know, the moment of the term. I thought the moment of the term.

I think so. I feel like there's like a documentary about that. I think so. I definitely know that Scientology is one of those that disappeared.

Yeah. Yeah. I think most organized religion. Yeah.

Can make things happen. Make things happen. Yep. Yeah.

So she hired the PA and she's like, okay, fine. My honey bear found him. So she finds out that he's working as a missionary in England. What an odd place to missionary.

Yeah. Can you imagine you're sitting down for your four o'clock tea and ding dong. Can you go and say hello? Can I help you, mate?

And you know, he's like, hello. I want to talk to you about the Lord. I don't think he says the Lord. I don't know.

I don't really know. I don't know. We're in the play. No.

I have any there that really want to. We should. I heard the song like when they're like knocking on the doors. Yeah.

Maybe we should. Like they just sing that. I love that it's a musical. It is a musical.

So my thing. Listen to the soundtrack. I've never seen the show. Really great.

We'll do that together. Sounds magical. Okay. So sweet.

We've got a date plan whenever that'll come in a direction. So she places an ad. So this is Joyce. She places an ad in the local paper in Utah for two bodyguards to travel with her overseas to confront her boyfriend.

Is she worried about England? Not a safe place to travel? Well, I think she's worried about maybe how he'll react or if he has like if he's under like lock and key. You know what I mean?

Like other people are like you get out here or she disappears. So to speak. You know, so maybe she's a little scared. So that makes sense.

She ends up hiring a bodybuilder and an airplane pilot. They're the ones who answered her ad and she was like, you know what? You got to work. Good enough.

Sure. In addition, she brings a good friend of hers named Keith May. Now, I don't know if her plan was to like go and yell at him or try to convince him like we belong together. I don't know.

But things kind of go awry. Okay. I mean, I think if you're bringing three like back up people with you, I'm not sure that this is the romantic reconnection you think it's good. You may not be able to have that liaison that you're looking for.

The liaison may not have them. Yeah. So Joyce and her male companions arrive in Britain. While at a hotel, the pilot and the bodybuilder noticed that Joyce and her and Keith have listening and recording devices.

They also have rope, handcuffs, and chloroform. Are we kidnapping? Are we disappearing? No.

What's happening? You shall see. So the bodybuilder and the pilot soon realized that this was more than just a simple confrontation that something bad was about to go down and they didn't want to stick around to be a part of it. So they got the hell out of there.

They were like, Oh, no, you're on your own. We're going back to the States. Bye. So now it's just Joyce and Keith, the duo spent several days planning and stalking Kirk.

When the time about right, they confronted him on the steps of the Mormon church that he was working at. What a perfect place. I mean, right there in God's house. Under the Lord and everybody.

It's ain't that the truth. Hey. When I say confront, I mean, that Joyce pulled a gun on him and forced him to get into her car. That would be a confrontation.

Yes. I would say. Yeah. It was there that she put a rag, drenched in chloroform over his mouth and nose.

Kirk passed out and back a car and Keith drove them to the countryside home. The two had rented. Okay. Doesn't feel like it's going well.

It's either about to get real kinky, really uncomfortable for somebody or all the above or all the above. Yeah. So once they get to the house, Keith helped Joyce carry a passed out Kirk into the house. It was there that Joyce used her fur line handcuffs and they were actually made of mink.

Yeah. To handcuff Kirk to the bed. I'm leaving towards kink. Just said.

She left him handcuffed to the bed for several days. Oh. So as he started to come to, he was surprised to find that he could not really move his arms. For days?

Yes. She had handcuffed for days. Oh, wow. Yeah.

During that time, in which he was handcuffed to the bed, Joyce had sex with him on multiple occasions and later stated that during the interactions he vowed to marry her. I mean, probably would have said anything so this woman would go away. So not consensual. I'm going to go ahead and guess.

That is correct. So I just, not not kinky. Not kinky. This is assault.

Yeah. All right. So we're moving. We're moving on.

And I just want to say here, just to read a rate and we all know this, but you know, forcing someone to have sex with you against their will is rape no matter if you are a man or a woman. Oh, I'll be right. So and I will also say our bodies react physically to stimulation. So whether you want it or not, sometimes it just happens.

Yeah. So I'm going to just say that. Yeah. Yep.

After three days of being handcuffed, he was actually able to get out of the cuffs and run for help. Wow. Yeah. It's impressive.

Joyce was arrested for kidnapping. Yeah. But she was never charged for rape because in England at the time, there were no statutes for rape for a man. And when is this?

This is 1977. Dang. Yep. Wow.

Joyce served three months in jail, but got out on bail due to her declining mental health. You don't say, right? I mean, you did kidnap someone and rape them for three days. Yes.

And then only served three months. Yep. Okay. Yeah.

There's that. So it gets crazier. After leaving prison, she turned to the tabloids who seemed to really embrace her, calling her the madam of mayhem. Oh, you little crazy minks.

You're so so silly that you held someone up a gunpoint chloroform them. You know, handcuffed him to a bed and rape them. Oh, you little minks. You little madam of mayhem.

That's gross. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

But you've committed all these crimes if a man had done this. Oh, my God. A rapist, a creep, all the names you could have given him. Right.

But since it was a woman, she's so adorable. Like that's, yeah. Yeah, it's gross. Yeah.

So Joyce told the tabloids that it was three days filled with food, fun, and sex. Yeah. She said that he enjoyed every minute of it. A man who wasn't able to even get up in urinate and who probably was peeing and pooping on himself.

So Joyce made money from these tabloid articles. And people seem to love her. The daily mail, in fact, paid her $300,000 in today's money. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah. If you share your story, we'll give you all this money because look at you, you little madam of mayhem. Dear, a rapist.

Yeah. Exactly. And I'm not really sure what happened court-wise with Keith, the accomplice, but the two ended up fleeing the UK and going to Canada using false passports. Wow.

So again, you got to remember, it's 1977, pre-911, which were very different. Yeah. Yeah. Joyce and Keith, while in Canada, we're like, now, how are we going to get back into the states?

Well, they had their fake passports, but they wanted to have a disguise. What do you think they dressed as? Pickfoot. Nope.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Each other.

Nuns. Yes. Yes. They said, you know what?

Good move. Yep. We're going to be nuns. We're going to bring the Lord back.

Oh, yeah. Full circle. We've full circle. We've full circle Mormons to Catholicism.

Exactly. But that's fine. Just whatever gets us in the country at this point. And apparently it's nuns.

Well, so they get to the US border and fortunately officials weren't fooled by their clever disguises and arrested the two. Yeah, for falsifying passports in order to gain entry into these here United States. Wow. Did you get an answer from your colleague?

No. No. Okay. Bummer.

I heard your phone. No. It was my brother checking in on the dog asking if he needed to pick her up. That's very sweet.

No, but I do need him to do my breaks. Absolutely. Okay. So I know here real life, you guys, real life.

Okay. So when it was discovered that they had fled the UK, British authorities, you know, talked to the US and they were like, listen, we just kind of want this to go away. So we're not going to extradite her back. We're just going to drop all the charges.

She's already back in your custody. You deal with her. We don't want her back. But man, wasn't she cute?

Perfect. Yeah. So she and her compost got away with kidnapping and rape. Not only that, but she was applauded in the tabloids and profited off it.

Great. Joyce continued to speak with the tabloids and told them that the reason she kidnapped Kirk was to deprogram him. You see, Joyce felt that Kirk was an occult. I mean, okay.

She had in fact been reading up on cults and how to deprogram people in the days leading up to the crime. She referred to him as cult Kirk. Is rape a part of deprogramming? Well, we're about to get to that.

Okay. Don't think it is, but she felt that she could use her power and influence as a woman to help deprogram him. So essentially, she was using her body to go hurt him into leaving the cult. Can't you hear it now?

Hey, Mr. Cultman, take a gandere this. You tell those bad bad cult leaders to leave you alone and you and I can have a good time. Well, it sounds like you already did that and then he fled the country.

He felt so guilty about what he had done voluntarily with you that he had to leave the country. So yeah. I'm not sure this is the route we should be going. This is exactly.

So she told the press that she wanted to encourage Kirk to fulfill his repressed sexual desires that his Mormon faith make him keep in check. She insisted that their interactions were consensual and he enjoyed them, stating quote, he was grinning like a monkey and quote, grinning like a monkey or grimacing and saying, please get off of me. All the things. Joy stated that she didn't even take pleasure from their encounters as she was too preoccupied with satisfying his needs.

I highly doubt that. Okay. She stated that bondage was the was only used to help cure him of his repressed desires and if she didn't handcuff him, he would never give in to his animalistic needs. I doubt that.

I think that she wanted a prisoner. I think so too. Yeah. That's a lot.

So all this cold ideology came from Joyce's perception that the Mormon church was a cult who forced her true love to ditch her and run off to another country. I mean, there are some valid points here that I do want to address. Like, yeah, instead of, you know, encouraging him to be a big boy and like face up to what you've done, they were like, no, it's cool. You can just run away.

So I get that piece. But I will say if you have an issue with the church, maybe go talk to the church. Don't kidnap and assault your ex boyfriend. Just throw in the app.

Or give him a phone call and say, listen, what you did was not cool. I like, you know, I don't know something. Maybe any of those options. Use your words.

Yeah. That helps. Yeah. Kirk on the other hand, hold the press and UK courts that their relations were not consensual in the least and he did not enjoy any part of this.

Joyce later denounced the Mormon church. Go figure and left the religion. Who would have thought? Yeah.

But prior to the kidnapping, she had actually dated an Osmond brother. So Wayne Osmond was the older brother of Donnie and Marie, who were famous and well known in the Mormon church. They had their own variety shown in the 70s. She had dated the brother.

Yeah. Joyce went on to be famous herself after all of this publicity and would even go to Hollywood events and parties with celebrities, including, who is it? Not Joan Crawford, but Joan. Oh gosh.

I didn't write it down, but the other Joan. The other Joan. Yeah. Sure.

She also worked as a prostitute and posed for provocative photographs. Okay. She ended up moving back to every county North Carolina, but just could not get Kirk out of her head. It's hard to do.

He's just kind of stamped on your heart. By 1984, Kirk was married with a child and had moved on. He was living and working in Utah and had tried hard to put the incident behind him and just move on. Good for Kirk.

Joyce, however, couldn't. So she went to Utah and began stalking him. Oh my god. Yeah.

So this is about seven years after the event. She found out where he was working and was sitting in the parking lot and writing down his coming and going in a journal. I don't like that. I don't either.

I'm worried about Kirk. Yeah. Kirk realized that he was being stopped and he called the police. When the police confronted Joyce, they found her journal and a suitcase with chains and handcuffs inside.

Oh god. Joyce told the police that she had no ill intent. She just wanted to talk with Kirk and see how he was doing after all these years. Not well.

Not well. But not well. He was doing okay until you showed up again. Yeah.

Kirk told police that he didn't expect her to show up in his life again and that he wanted her to just leave him alone. Yeah. Rather than arresting her because that guy's would just be too easy. Police asked her to leave the state and not return.

So Joyce goes back to North Carolina where she continues her eccentric lifestyle and this is where my colleague meets her. Joyce was well known in the community for being crazy. Oh see my colleague work at the time at a vet's office and Joyce would bring her dog booger in. Oh.

Joyce claimed that booger was ill and in pain and needed pain meds. So when the vet would say, oh well how about we try this? Joyce would say back. No, I'm allergic to that.

Oh my god. They caught on real fast. Yeah. Joyce was drug seeking for herself and not a precious booger.

Sounds like it. Also, Elizabeth told me booger was mean as hell. Booger used to bite people at the grocery store. Why was the dog at the grocery store?

Oh, here's another piece to it. When Joyce was asked not to bring booger into the grocery store, she claimed it was unconstitutional since booger was a therapy dog or what would now be known as an emotional support pet. Booger ends up dying and Joyce was so devastated. This is another just great part.

You'll love this. Anyway, she was so devastated that she reached out to a South Korean laboratory to see if they could clone booger. Wow. Yeah.

Not kidding. That's wild. In 2008, Joyce made headlines when she successfully cloned booger with three puppies. Oh my god.

Yes. They only charged her $50,000 to do it because she said in return for you doing this at a lower price, I will give you publicity because you know I'm semi-famous here. Right. So it was apparently one third of what they normally would have charged, which I guess would have been $150,000.

That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. I did ask my colleague if Joyce had money, like to just throw out like 50 grand for this and she stated no.