The Meaning of Christmas Spirit in “Elf” (2003) – Part 2

Like many of its genre, the film “Elf” connects Christmas spirit to the sorts of bonds that hold together families and communities, despite their inevitable tendencies towards conflict and dissolution. Wes & Erin discuss this 2003 classic, what it means to believe in Christmas, and how this is connected to the possibility of a genuine community. Upcoming Episodes: “Julius Caesar.” Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. This podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit AirwaveMedia.com to listen and subscribe to other Airwave shows like Good Job, Brain and Big Picture Science. Email [email protected] to enquire about advertising on the podcast. Follow: Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:19 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. 0:32 Wes: Okay, welcome to part two of our discussion of elf. We had just gotten done. Erin was talking about the mutual adaptation of Buddy and the people that he's interacting with in New York. And you had me thinking earlier about this in terms of there's a feedback loop between catalysts. So he's got to be a catalyst in a way to change people so that they in turn can be catalysts for him. What does he really need, though, since he's so happy and can eat canned syrup on syrup all day, including alcoholic syrup, what does he need? He needs. Nominally, he needs a father, although he's got a perfectly good father and papa. Yeah. But I think one of the things we had toyed with was the idea that he needed to be with human beings, as racist as it sounds. But he stick to your own kind, not from a racial standpoint, but from a standpoint of being connected to the spirit world without being entirely absorbed into the spirit world. So coming from the spirit world to be the mediator. But he's not just a Christ figure. He's got to learn to be human, essentially, and perhaps even to be an adult to some extent, God forbid. But what's going to happen with him and Jovie and they have a kid. Yikes. But at the end of it, how's that going? 1:58 Erin: Best not to think too deeply about that. 2:03 Wes: But in any case, so he's both angel and messenger and mediator, but the world is also that to him. And this is kind of catch 22. And you see it actually in relationships where people, in a sense, need to help each other, but to get the help you need from one person, you might need to help them do something first. In other words, you might need to help them become capable of helping you. Help me help you change at a deeper psychological level, so that then they can help you with your change. So he's going to reform Walter, make him less cynical, make him a better father, make him someone who's not going to try to cheat children out of their storybook endings, which is literally what he tries to do. It doesn't matter to him if they don't find out what happens to the. What. What are the characters? 2:52 Erin: A penguin or a penguin and a puppy. 2:55 Wes: Penguin and a puppy. And to help Michael have a father and to help Jovie be someone who can sing in public. And does he help anyone else? I mean, he's helping all the world in the sense. Right. By restoring Christmas spirit. Right, but thinking in terms of specific interactions. But these other figures that he's transforming, they're part of what he needs, so he's transforming them so they can also be something for him. 3:23 Erin: I don't know if I want to go in this direction, because it seems a little like we might be taking this too seriously. But it makes one think of theological types of questions, like, does God need us to worship him? There seems to be this same feedback loop that you're describing in the whole idea of the Incarnation, or the idea that Christ needs to come down and be human and be part of us, and that there's this. This mediation that happens between us and God. And then we're also supposed to be the catalysts, not for. Not for helping Jesus do something, but, you know, for. For others that has to have a kind of ripple effect. But I'm cringing as I say this because I don't. I don't necessarily want to make this. I don't want to go down this path and talk about the theology of Elf. There is more I wanted to say about the whole faith and works thing having to do with Walter. But should we drill down a little bit more into Walter? Because the thing that I want to know is why? I mean, he's a children's book author. Because in the end, Buddy has to be a children's book author. 4:19 Wes: And then thematically, it's very. You know, it's nice. It's neat, that thematically. Right. He's trying to kill off storybook endings. 4:27 Erin: Right. Right. He's a children's book publisher, I should say. 4:29 Wes: Or. 4:29 Erin: Right. I don't know what he is. 4:31 Wes: Right. So he's not just cynical and depleted and sad, kind of. And he's playing the role initially as a sort of antagonist of trying to rob people of their happy magic child storybook endings. He's in a role where he should write. He should be interested in children getting a kick out of the books that he's publishing and want them to get joy out of that. But he doesn't even, you know, he can, for financial reasons, give them an unfinished book. So anyway, symbolically, thematically, it's very rich. But in terms of the psychology, the poetics of the film, we have to ask. Yeah, how did he become that way? Why is he that way? 5:13 Erin: It's interesting because he's in this role, it seems, as a means to an end. There's this idea that he's a workaholic, and yet he doesn't really care about the work. The work has become disenchanted for him. He's working a lot, it seems, for the money, but he's also not really paying attention. He's not doing a great job. So it's quite complex, actually, because he's leaving pages out of a book, and yet he's working all the time. So it's like, what is taking up his time at this job? Nominally, he's working on making these books for children. He's working all the time, and yet he's slipping up. He's making these mistakes. I like the way that you put it that he's robbing these storybook endings from children. But at the same time, there's a lack of consciousness about it. You know, he's not deliberately taking candy from children or something like that. 6:00 Wes: It's a lapse his characterization, I think, is nice and it's subtly done right. It's not over the top, but, you know, it needs to be because he's gonna have to be reformed in the end. Right. So he can't be too much of a villain. He seems more depleted. I don't know. I think you might have said that word first, but I think it's a good one. There's an element of cynicism, but it's not irredeemable. Perhaps part of the idea here is just getting back to this idea of work is right. It's at the point where it becomes an assembly line that people get dissatisfied. It's no longer new, it's no longer creative. He's dealing with idiot writers and then also huge egos like the Miles characters who are just in it for the fame. So you can imagine it would start it out as something he was enthusiastic about, possibly. And then he's just done too much of it. He's dealt with all the bullshit and all the characters, including the receptionist who's talking about declawing kittens. 6:54 Erin: Oh, my God. Amy Sedaris in this. 6:57 Wes: I love that. 6:59 Erin: Yeah. She's so amazing in this. I love her. Anyway, and this is. She had to have ad libbed that, right? She's probably just thinking to herself, what's the sickest thing I could say in this ad libbed phone conversation? 7:11 Wes: Yeah, that would be great if it is. Is that in the trivia? 7:14 Erin: I don't. I don't. No, I didn't read that, but I wouldn't put it. I mean, she's a comedic genius, so that's exactly the kind of thing she would do. 7:20 Wes: Let's just look at this line. Oh, I don't know, Connie. I've never. 7:23 Erin: I've never declawed kittens before. 7:25 Wes: How many? Eight. 7:27 Erin: Take them down to the camper. 7:28 Wes: I don't. I don't know if I'm gonna have time. 7:31 Erin: Yeah, bring them by the camper. 7:32 Wes: Bring them by the camp. Camper. I love that. Right? Yeah. So we deal with all these, you know, the human with all these crazy characters. And it's charming from the standpoint of the film audience, but in daily life, it gets old real quick. So we. We know, you know, we're all personally familiar with how the cynicism can set in, even if it's our dream job and even if it's. Yeah. 7:58 Erin: Well, I love the connection you make to the North Pole and the assembly line idea, because the. It's actually unclear. You know, Walter has a Boss, who I think is the head of the publishing company. So Walter, presumably, would be the head of the children's book division. Maybe. Maybe this is something they say explicitly, but I don't remember it. He's not writing the books himself. He has the, as you say, these two idiot writers. One of them is Andy Richter. These two idiot writers that are actually. That he's then passing on the responsibility of making them come up with the story. 8:32 Wes: How about some asparagus children who are ashamed of the way their pee smell so good? 8:38 Erin: That is like, one of the funniest. 8:39 Wes: And it's all there vegetable ideas. 8:40 Erin: That's so funny. 8:41 Wes: But. Yeah. Sorry. 8:43 Erin: But they then pass, you know, as we already said in part one, they then pass off the responsibility to Miles Finch to come up with the idea. Drawing the connection to the elves makes me think of. This is a perfect symbol of a depleted assembly line. So rather than passing on the object to then having more things added to it, there's a sort of passing the buck. There's a. Nothing is being created, and it's just being pushed off onto somebody else. That's the assembly line quality of this. Depleted. It's not inertia, but like, you know, something that. Something that just isn't gaining any traction as it goes along. It's just becoming more and more nothing somehow. 9:24 Wes: Yeah. No. And then the person it's pushed on to, the person who's not depleted. Right. Who's still ambitious, is functioning in that way because he's completely full of himself. Right. His narcissism is his fuel. So there is spirit there in someone like Miles. Right. Where the others are just sort of there. Right. Just got to get this done. There's a kind of spirit in Miles, but it's fueled by turbines, so to speak, instead of by the. 9:52 Erin: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. And it's. And it's false, too. I thought about the idea that, you know, what does being a little person mean in this context other than the opportunity to make these elf jokes that. That Buddy makes. Right. But really it's this idea, of course, that being. There's a sort of superficiality to that somehow that being small means being childlike or being close to kids or having that kind of access or having that elf like. Right. So the idea is, I think that he would be this perfect children's book author somehow, because he has that understanding or that access to the mind of a kid, and instead that's flipped on its head. He's this deeply cynical, but also ambitious and Powerful man who is successful. I mean, he does seem to have success in accessing the mind of children, but that doesn't translate into any personal warmth or he doesn't seem like someone who would ever actually connect with kids in real life. 10:52 Wes: Right. So at that point where people are formidable. Right. So he's someone who's formidable. He's like the fixer, the hitman walking in, or the prima donna. He needs a certain car and it's got to be 71 degrees and all that stuff. But he's earned it with his talent. He's earned it with his genius. That kind of deference, that kind of treatment. He can make those demands on people because apparently he's supposed to be so great, but it's gone to his head. So, again, yeah, the spirit of narcissism, that in a weird way, it's more. Much more animated. And there's a sense in which it's close to the. It's more benign version, which comes from generosity and love as opposed to self love. 11:35 Erin: Yeah. There's a contradiction, though, in what he preaches and what his actual ideas are. He's about to make his pitch when the meeting gets interrupted and he tells the writer guy's that everyone's pushing small town rural. So another farm book would just be white noise. Right. And this is another thing I wanted to say actually in relationship to the idea of New York City becoming a small community, somehow that being invested through this catalyst interaction that you're describing with Buddy, where the city is changing too, in response to him. Right. Like there's this moment of the shrunken community where the city becomes a little bit more like a small town and then becomes reanimated or re. You know, destroyed. Cynicized for a moment and animated with this positive, aspirational spirit, which then of course, Buddy is able to write. He writes a book that is not about small town rural. It's about the re. Enchantment of the city itself. Right. He describes himself coming through the Lincoln Tunnel as part of his journey and being in the city. So he actually ends up fulfilling Miles's directive to stay away from small town rural. But Miles's best idea is about a peach. And what's more vulnerable than a peach? Because he also says no tomatoes. They're too vulnerable. Kids are already vulnerable. So he has these dictums that he's. That he's, you know, so one wonders what he was about to pitch in that meeting. If he was just going to throw out all these. No, small town rural, no Farm books. No vulnerable fruits. And then come out with a book about a peach on a farm. Maybe that's what he was going to do. But we don't know. We only know that. 13:13 Wes: And I think the only picture we see from that book is of a chicken. Right. So he's full of interesting. Right? Farm. 13:19 Erin: Yeah, exactly. So there's a. There's. There's something weird going on there too that he's, you know. What is his role anyway? His role is to sell an idea. Maybe that's separate from his own children's book writing career. And so he's going to deliberately lead them astray when he actually thinks small town rural is the way to go and vulnerable peach is the way to go and that he would have pitched them something else about a brobot or something. Anyway, I don't know. The point being that I think he's an extension of the city in this way that seems very much about being narcissistic, projecting these huge ambitions, but also marrying that with an incredible amount of cynicism, which involves lying or somehow being very superficial. 14:01 Wes: Yeah. Buddy recognizes him to be an elf, which is supposed to be funny. And it is. And he's not. Right. He's not trying to make a joke about it or to be insulting, even 14:10 Erin: though everything he says sounds like an insult if you just look at the words. Right. I didn't know there were elves here. Does Santa know you left the workshop? Like, they're all amazing. That dual quality is great. 14:23 Wes: And in a way, he is kind of a dark elf. That's his role in the film. Right. He's also industrious. He's also making things for kids. 14:32 Erin: I like that. 14:33 Wes: But he doesn't have the same humility. And it contrasts in a very comic way with his physical stature. But more importantly, again, just he's. He seems to be doing it out of narcissism more than love. Which is not to say that love isn't part of it. And this is always a problem. Right. We're all. If we do. Any of us who do creative work want recognition for it. But then the need for recognition can overcome the actual love of the creative work itself. So it's more about their proportion. And we know, but. Right. So someone like Walter could start out loving what he does and then just get depleted. And someone like Miles can start out more idealistically and then be too successful and get pulled into this position of self importance. So both of those are different dangers. Losing interest and just becoming a bit depressed and then having one's interest being co opted by an interest in power, let's put it that way. Recognition in power. 15:35 Erin: Yeah. That makes me think, of course, of the Central Park Rangers too. Just to give a little nod to them. Right. Because if they're supposed to be Ringwraiths, aren't Ringwraiths elves who were. Who were corrupted. Right. And they have their own. 15:51 Wes: Given one of the rings. 15:52 Erin: Right, Right. And they have their own work ethic, shall we say? They're overly speaking of power. They seem to be on a power trip and they're. Crowd control tactics at the Simon and Garfunkel concert. Led to. 16:10 Wes: Yeah. Figures like this, you know, like the Ringwraiths. Those types of figures are. Yeah. Are representatives of the dangers of power. The psychological effects of power, how it turns. You know, they're like underneath their cloaks, right. They're kind of deathlike and skeletal. So the real self gets killed off by an interest in the real self, which includes one's own vulnerability, gets killed off by the false self that is interested only in power. So the psychological effect, ironically, is it's a certain kind of depletion. 16:47 Erin: They too have a connection to work or a certain kind of overexertion in relation to performing their job. So that's obviously inherently related to power. 17:00 Wes: Motivator like love. Maybe that's the way to look at it. These dual motivators, power and love. 17:05 Erin: I think we've landed on a powerful argument for Buddy needing to adapt to New York. New York adapts to him. But I was wondering through part of the film if the lesson is that the elves have it right and their relationship to work is actually a healthy one, relatively speaking. And that the movie is making an argument about good work and good exertion and good industriousness versus bad industriousness. I think ultimately you're right that the assembly line quality is of the elves. They're suited to this. But humans are not. And I think it's important that in the end Walter gives up his job and ends up going into work for himself. And that Buddy's verve and enthusiasm for work is channeled in a creative direction rather than in the direction of production for production's sake. But there is a positive work message here, you know, that that needs to be channeled. But ultimately the movie is about finding and doing good work and work that you love and work that actually excites you. It's about that balance as well. But it really is this positive work message which leads me back to the direction that I Wanted to go in at the beginning about faith in works. It seems like that that's really important. It's really important for Walter to leave his job to make a statement about his, say, his faith in his family. But it's also really important that he get a new job where that energy can be channeled appropriately. And it's really important too that even though he believes in Santa at the end and he has been converted, that he actually sings the Christmas song. He can't just mouth it. He has to actually do the work. He has to actually show up. It's not enough to just believe. It's not enough to just walk away from the job. You've got to have that desire to work and that exertion and have it properly channeled. And you have to, you have to work, you have to do something. 18:57 Wes: Well, it connects them to the community. 18:59 Erin: That too. That too. Right. 19:01 Wes: Singing together with the crowd. 19:03 Erin: And that's part of, you know, you have to go, you have to show up. That's. This is the argument for actually going to church rather than among those who actually go to church. That is the argument that you can't just be alone in your belief. Obviously some, some people don't believe that. Some people believe that you could be just a non practicing Christian and not have to be involved in a church community. But that is the argument. 19:25 Wes: I mean, we're talking about here with work and faith. We're talking about good works. As in acts of altruism. 19:31 Erin: Yes. Yeah. And sort of to practice this idea of practice. Yeah. 19:37 Wes: Right. Okay. 19:38 Erin: So as in, as in practicing St. 19:40 Wes: Augustine, going through the motions, doing the rituals as a precursor to faith rather than. Or as a way of keeping the faith. 19:49 Erin: Right. Getting the body involved somehow in the stakes is not enough to have nice feelings. You have to actually do things to sort of support that. Whether the body goes and then the heart and mind follow or vice versa, there has to be some sort of like physical stake or backup. 20:05 Wes: Yeah. And part of what you're doing is you're representing it for others. So. Right. Otherwise faith is just abstract and invisible. And so how do we know what it is? We see other people performing these rituals, but the rituals are also symbols. So we get to see faith in the world. So that's part of my point about him singing and that being. Connecting him to the community and it also being an act of altruism. But you facilitate other people's faith by engaging in singing. 20:38 Erin: Yeah. And you're sort of backing up your words with your actions in a Way that we're describing that's. That's missing in certain elements of New York in Miles saying one thing and having it in his little bible of. His little bible of story ideas, something different, or. Or, you know, saying that something is the world's greatest cup of coffee, but not being able to back it up with the world's greatest cup of coffee or whatever. Right. That kind of disconnect or that disjuncture between what one says and what one does seems to be. It's important that that be in alignment in this film. That that re. Enchantment somehow is about the body and the spirit in agreement. 21:18 Wes: Yeah, I like that. And I like this word re. Enchantment, because I'm interested. Where are we supposed to end up? Which is part of why I asked the question about believing in Christmas as a kid. Right? Because we're not gonna end up with a belief in Christmas, and we're not gonna end up. Even if we've been graced by Buddy's angelic innocence presence. We. We are not ourselves going to become holy fools. We ourselves are not going to just simply revert into being children again. We can't become that. So we have to ask ourselves the question of what we're trying to do for ourselves and for children when we use these rituals like the Christmas. The Christmas ritual. I think in a way, we want the best of both worlds, right? And this goes back to the city and the village, the points you're making. You don't. You don't want to go full small town rural because there are too many drawbacks to that. Vulnerability is part of it. Right. We're less vulnerable in this cynical urban world. In a sense, we're more defended. I think, as you put it, there's more vulnerability, there's more community, but there's a lot of drawbacks to small towns or to rural environments. You ever read Winesburg, Ohio? 22:27 Erin: Yeah. 22:28 Wes: Yeah. It's all about that. So we can idealize that environment, but we do want a lot of the things that come with the city. The ambition and aspiration as it's represented by the Empire State Building, even a certain kind of anonymity. Very practical things like job opportunities, things like that. There's so much to be said for the city and so much to be said for the more rural or the more small town or more village environment. And I think we would ultimately, we would like to fuse them. And likewise, we would love to be able to fuse some of that innocence or Christmas spirit or just more generally spirit that Buddy Brings with, you know, with being an adult, right? We don't want to just become a child again. We don't want to give up our adultness. We don't really want to do that. But. But we still want something of the childlike innocence. So then the question is, how do you make those two things work together? And I think, just going back to the theme that you've been concentrating on, creative work is really one of the ways to do that. We can feel innocent and childlike in the sense of being very playful when we're doing creative work. If we're doing it in the spirit of play and love and have not become ring wraiths, right? Have not just been. Not become miles, not been consumed by the power of it. If we're good at it, we could be wearing the ring, essentially. We could be the greatest writer in the world. And that is the ring in Tolkien's sense. And if we are wearing the ring, then beware, because the temptations of the power of being good at the work rob us of what can be so joyful about it. 24:11 Erin: That's great. I think, in the other direction as well, and thinking about the faith component and this idea of faith in. Or belief in Santa, you know, thinking about these religious conversion themes, you know, these are movies for kids. They're movies in which often the person who has to come to believe is an adult. The child already believes. Maybe that's what the Santa thing is about for kids psychologically. Maybe this is about actually practicing faith. We have to act as though we believe the things we believe in, but we also have to believe what we act. Right? And that seems to be part of the idea of this re. Enchantment of work. You know, faith without works is dead. But also work without faith is. You know, it works in both directions. And so Walter, for instance, is reconnected to the faith element of his work. He makes these critical mistakes which mean that his works are empty without faith. So there's something bidirectional in the film's take on the importance not just of belief, but belief connected to work. So, in other words, meaningful work, as I think you're saying, which leads us, of course, back to creativity. So I'm sort of rephrasing a lot of what you're saying, but I think that is maybe connected to this idea of belief in Santa. I don't know if this is psychologically true at all. I don't know. But helping kids sort of stay connected to childhood seems like the actual motivation for encouraging them to believe in Santa. To keep them young, to keep them out of the adult world in a way by having them believe in something which is, quote unquote, magical. But you could also read that as encouraging them or having them practice a belief in something which they can't see to help them, I don't know, believe in some sort of larger principles. It doesn't have to be religious necessarily. 26:03 Wes: And I think. 26:04 Erin: Yeah, yeah. 26:05 Wes: To help ourselves believe in them too. Right. So we live vicariously through. Through children. And so, yeah, this is like having faith enacted in ritual so that we can reap the rewards of making it more concrete and so facilitating our own faith in general. So. Right. What are we trying to induce in children? We're trying to get them to be childlike. We're trying to get them to be more like Buddy, to maintain their innocence so that we can have that for ourselves to some extent, vicariously. So, for instance, Christmas was magical for me as a kid, even though I didn't need to believe in Santa Claus for that to be true. I think that there's something about Christmas which involves the re. Enchantment of the family, to use your word here, re enchantment. So family life or even human relatedness in general, you could think there's something really magic about it and in the broad sense, charming about it. There's a charm to it. There's a magical quality that's there in people's. The kinds of effects that they have on each other. Or the whole concept of a relationship in a way is like, you know, where is it metaphysically? What is it? Where is it? It's magic. So, but we lose sight of that. So family life easily becomes mundane. Children are going to school, people don't have as much time for each other. Parents at work, this, this and that. So part of what Christmas does is it gives people the opportunity to spend more time together because they're on vacation. It gives people the opportunity to enact generosity. So what's being ritualistically enacted? Giving without any thought necessarily of receiving. Although for me as a kid it was all about receiving, I guess. And if you believing in Santa Claus, it really is all about receiving. You have this infinitely generous entity with a bottomless bag who could deliver everything in one night. One might come to the point where one doesn't even believe in generosity. And that's part of what it means to be cynical. Other people are just self interested. That's the idea. So the concept of gift giving and Santa Claus as a gift giver, that the representation of generosity there is a way to counteract that cynicism. And part of the purpose of that is to re. Enchant the feeling of family life, because cynicism degrades or breaks those bonds. The less you believe in the good intentions of the other, the more you see their self interest at work and their flaws, which you do inevitably in a family. You see. Right. Your parents are not ideal. You find out at a certain point 28:40 Erin: in time, unless your mom is Mary Steenburgen and she's like, both hot and the nicest person ever, who's thrilled. 28:48 Wes: That's got its own set of problems that come with it. 28:50 Erin: Well, I mean, like, if you're Walter, why is it he not spending more time at home? He has the perfect wife. 28:55 Wes: Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So the more you become aware of these ungenerous characteristics in other human beings, the more the bonds of the relationship are degraded. So I think that's. I'm just trying to explain some of these connections between the re. Enchantment of the family feeling, which I think is a big part of Christmas. And it's a big part of these movies. Right. Where you got to get the families working again. And we saw it in Die Hard, getting a couple back together. So it's often about fixing families. And I think that's part of what Kind of Christmas does. Even the aesthetic with the lights and all of that. It's just meant to create this environment of togetherness somehow. 29:35 Erin: That's right. 29:35 Wes: Yeah. 29:36 Erin: I was thinking about that in terms of trying to test this theory that all Christmas movies are about religious conversion. And I was thinking about that being true in something like, say, Home Alone, where it seems like the religion is the family togetherness. Kevin, who wants escape from his family, has to be converted back to the family by their loss. And it's true in The Santa Clause, too. Like, Tim Allen is this divorced dad who needs a better relationship with his family, and he gets one by literally becoming Santa Claus, which is a little extreme. But that's not religious conversion so much as it is religious possession. But that principle of conversion, it seems like Santa can be in that role as the thing you have to believe in, or family can be in the role too. 30:23 Wes: Yeah. And I'm trying to suggest that the psychology of believing in Santa, it really is about believing in the family and believing, I think, for children, in a way, believing in parents, believing that parents have their best interests at heart, that their parents can be essentially generous because they're going to find out that their parents have their own interests and that the parents interests diverge from the interests of the child and that that's going to create a lot of conflicts. So I think we're trying to keep children. You know, it's a harsh reality that children are going to come to, especially in relationship, in relation to their parents. So we think we want to postpone that and we want to not let it be the whole story, so to speak, before we close. Yeah. Where does this stand in the Christmas movie pantheon? Is it. Is that the right word? 31:12 Erin: Even pantheon? It's pretty high up there. 31:13 Wes: Yeah. How would you rank after Die Hard, which is obviously number one? How would you rank? 31:20 Erin: There are certain things I watch every year. It's a quirky list. This is definitely one. And we'll say that this is also an incredibly quotable film. The number one most. 31:29 Wes: Let's hear some of them quoted. We didn't do a lot of that. 31:32 Erin: Yeah, well, the number one, I'm sure 31:34 Wes: listeners will be disappointed in, but yeah, 31:36 Erin: the number one most quoted line in my family is, but the children love the books. For some reason. That's like one of the. It's not one of your headliners. That's the nun saying it to Walter who wants to take a one. 31:51 Wes: Oh, yes. 31:52 Erin: For some reason, that's the thing that caught on. My little brother, my youngest brother was. He would have been two when it came out, but he grew up with it. And he used to answer the phone, Buddy the elf, what's your favorite color? Which he thought was hilarious to do around Christmas. That was back when we still had a landline and people still answered their phones. 32:13 Wes: That's great. 32:13 Erin: Yeah. Is this up there for you? 32:16 Wes: Yeah, I'm trying to remind myself, other than Die Hard, I mean. Yeah. What counts as a Christmas movie? I'm looking at a list. I'm looking at a list here. And yeah, Trading Places, which is great, but what makes that a Christmas movie? 32:29 Erin: I'm trying to think it takes place on Christmas. I always say it has to have two conditions. It either has to take place on Christmas or it has to have an epic battle between good and evil and snow. That makes it a Christmas movie. That's why Fellowship of the Ring is a Christmas movie or the first Harry Potter movie. I don't make the rules. I just. Well, I do make the rules in that instance, but I make them. And then. 32:52 Wes: This seems a little bit too inclusive to me. 32:55 Erin: No, it's actually not that. You'd be surprised how few films have snow in them. We made the argument, remember that Die Hard does Because of the paper falling from the sky. 33:04 Wes: I remember that. 33:06 Erin: But it also took place on Christmas, so that's enough my estimation. But yeah, my favorite Christmas movie is the Thin Man. 33:14 Wes: Okay. I think we watched that together once. 33:17 Erin: Yeah. And then I think my second favorite is the man who Came to Dinner, which is another movie that. That certain people will know, and then another movie that I won't mention, and then Elf. 33:27 Wes: What's the movie you're not mentioning? 33:29 Erin: I love this movie. That maybe some of our listeners will know this. 33:34 Wes: Don't be ashamed. 33:35 Erin: Come on. It's a made for TV movie called Eloise at Christmas Time. I love the Eloise books when I was younger. 33:44 Wes: I don't like the sound of that. 33:45 Erin: No, it's really cute. They're really cute. And they. They did these two. Eloise at the Plaza and then Eloise at Christmastime. These two made for TV movies on ABC Family with Julie Andrews as the nanny of Eloise. And I love these books growing up. And the eloise at Christmastime 1, she lives in the Plaza Hotel. So it's a New York Christmas movie. 34:08 Wes: Okay, so it's not like a Hallmark movie or something like that? 34:11 Erin: No, no, they're excellent. And they have excellent cast, too. Christine Baranski's in it. Jeffrey Tambor. 34:16 Wes: So there's no reason to be ashamed. 34:18 Erin: No, but it's just like, you know, I like weird things. No surprise to our listeners that I like weird things. But that's. That has a lot of nostalgia for me, that film. So I have to watch it every year. 34:30 Wes: All right. Well, that was fun. 34:32 Erin: It was. 34:33 Wes: Thank you. 34:33 Erin: Thank you. And thanks to everyone who listened. For an easy way to do that, go to subtextpodcast.com patreon.com subtextpodcast please send your questions, feedback and episode requests to [email protected] if we get enough questions, we'll do some bonus Q and A shows for subscribers. You can also find us on Facebook at Subtext Podcast and on Twitter nysubtext.