Oh wait, you're listening to Radio Lab from WNYC. Previously, we were being chased by the police. Oh, yeah. He was with all these very bad people.
Al Qaeda and the Taliban directly associated with Osama bin Laden. Is it possible that he was just running with the wrong people? These are the worst people. How do you say I get out of this?
He's clear. He will have a window when he comes here. I'm Latif Nasir, and this is the other Latif. Episode 3, Sudan.
When we last left Al-Bilithif Nasir, he was a drift. He was in his mid-20s. His mom had died. He dropped out of school.
He'd moved to Libya to make some money, but he was broke. His dreams of studying and teaching science were fading. So he makes a decision to move again. This time to Sudan.
And Muhammadatowi in our last episode suggested, maybe that's where it happened. Sudan probably should best bet to find out where and how. And if the individual was radicalized. So that's the spot to pay attention to.
The reason he said that had to do with timing. Latif said foot in Sudan in 1993. And around that time. What is an Islamic State?
An Islamic State is a State that is not only Islamic at its private level, but also at the level of public life. There had been a coup in Sudan. And a new government stepped in. And the most powerful person in this new government was a man named...
Dr. Hassan Travi. Hassan Travi. Man seen as the architect of the Sudanese Islamic State.
Islam is a comprehensive way of life. Travi had a great vision for his Islamic revolution in Sudan. And it's Alon Baldo, former professor at the University of Khartoum. Hassan Travi, he founded a congress which was open to all extremist jihadist revolutionary groups seeking change against their respective governments.
He basically invited the extremists of the world to come to Sudan and join a club. The loose alliance of all the Ghadi groups, Palestinians and Hamas and Hezbollah and international criminals. Carlos de Jakal of France. Saddam Hussein sent people to Khartoum.
Generalist Peter Bergen and Lawrence Wright. Was Sudan in the mid 90s kind of like the Berkeley in the 60s for Islamism kind of thing? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. It was a convocation of different radical Islamist groups.
I wouldn't have been surprised if they played intramural soccer with each other. Al Qaeda had two teams and they would play after the mosque on Friday. Oh, you're not even kidding. Like, that's for real.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I kind of imagine it as an upside down United Nations. Instead of embassies representing the governments of all these different countries, it was like you had groups from each of those different countries who wanted to overthrow those governments.
So the mere fact that ability of Nasser went to Sudan at the precise moment when all these extremists were flocking to the country, you could see that as suspicious. According to government documents and his lawyer disputes this point, for the first few weeks in Sudan, ability of Nasser joined a Muslim missionary group, a kind of Muslim Jehovah's witnesses. He did that allegedly for 45 days. And then he said off in search of what the government calls quote, the perfect Islamic society.
It's always a little amusing to me how the government will characterize any period of time. That's ability of lawyer Shelby Sullivan-Bennis. As far as I am aware and believe that is not an appropriate description of his time in Sudan. She says, yeah, he may have been longing for purpose, may have been gradually turning to Islam.
But the main reason he went to Sudan was to work. And that's what he ended up doing. He ended up finding a job in the middle of nowhere on a farm. So Sudan was actually the place where he was overseeing the farming of sunflowers.
Sunflowers? Yeah. He was doing the sunflower farming, although I was advised by him multiple times that he was not he's not actually a farmer himself and like possesses no skills in that regard. So managing sort of from above, making sure people had enough resources and enough people on the field.
And this is for the flowers or the oil or the seeds or the... I think it was the seeds. They were growing sunflowers kind of in a field. And I think there were other surrounding it, but that was he was the sunflower man.
Yeah. Which I thought was pretty engineering. I listen to this interview now and I'm like, ugh, idiot. I was so into the idea of the seeds and the process that I forgot to ask a pivotal question.
Who were those sunflowers being farmed for? So I did that conversation. I did some research and ended up bringing it up with Shelby again in a later interview. I just moved to Sudan.
It was also job-based. I think you told me that he worked at a sunflower farm. He was like, you know, like a not farming per se, but like a management to position. Was that Osama bin Laden's farm?
So there's a distinction between information that I know, information I don't know, and information that classified to the client has told me. So I think I can't answer that question at all annoyingly. I'm sorry. Okay.
I think he worked on Osama bin Laden's farm. So at about the age of 29, Abdullah Difnasser is on the payroll of Osama bin Laden, the guy who ordered planes to find the World Trade Center in the Pentagon, the guy that the government would later allege of Abdullah Difnasser became an important military advisor to, which does not look good. But if you stop to think about it, what does that even mean that he was working on Osama bin Laden's farm? Was that a real farm?
Or was it a front? What was he doing there? When I first started reporting, these seemed to be straightforward, answerable questions. But yeah, that's not what they were at all.
Hi, BBC. I can hear you. Hello. Hello.
Hello. Here you go. Hello. This is Kathy.
Can you hear me? Hello. First thing you immediately discover when you talk to people who scrutinized Osama bin Laden's life, people like Kathy Scott Clark. I wrote a book called The Exile, which was a story of the last 10 years of Osama bin Laden.
And people like Lawrence Wright, I'm an author and a staff writer for The New Yorker magazine, is that during his Sudan years, approximately 1991 to 1996, Osama bin Laden saw himself as a totally different guy. It was in some ways one of the happiest times in his life. I mean, he, after the end of the Soviet war in Afghanistan, he'd fought in the Afghan war against the Soviet Union, working with the CIA. He'd squabbled with the Saudi government over their decision to let U.S.
troops into the country. Got kicked out to Saudi Arabia. And when he shows up in Sudan, bin Laden, who by this point is 34 years old, has four wives, 13 children, had a thought that maybe he wasn't going to go back to fight it. Maybe he was ready for a new phase of his life here in Sudan as a nation builder, just like his dad.
You see, back in Saudi Arabia, the older bin Laden had been this huge construction tycoon. His father was extremely wealthy and had been killed in a plane crash. And as one of 17 sons, he was entitled to a sizable share of his father's estate. So he arrived in Sudan with a huge amount of money.
And he was determined to use at least some of that money to help the Sudanese government develop their country. They were promising him huge contracts to build roads and there were lots of opportunities because Sudan was not as, it was kind of several years behind where Saudi Arabia was, as long as father had sort of built Saudi Arabia. So he now thought, well, I'm going to build Sudan. He was in his mind building a perfect Islamic society.
And literally building it. Yeah. He built massive roads and bridges, swimming pools, houses, whatever it was needed. There's this interview.
The first one bin Laden never did with the Western media. He was published in the UK paper, The Independent in 1993. The headline says, anti-Soviet warrior puts his army on the road to peace. In it, the journalist Robert Fisk asks bin Laden after fighting the Russians, is it not anti-climactic for you and your fellow fighters to end up building roads in Sudan?
bin Laden scoffs, saying that he's a construction engineer. This is what he wants to do. Not for profit, but to help local Muslims to improve their lives. Now as for the farm, how that enters the picture.
The government didn't have any money to pay him, so they gave him land. Which is why he ended up having a farm, the Damasine Farm. The Damasine Farm was about 300 miles southeast of cartoon near the Ethiopian border. It was out in the middle of nowhere.
There was nothing there at all when he was first given the land. But it was a part of the country that was verdant and green. Sudan is a wonderfully fertile country and bin Laden really had the idea that it could feed the world if it were properly organized. And he's right.
He raised cattle and horses and there was corn and sesame and... clava beans, watermelon... All sorts of things. But the crop that was the most important to him was his sunflowers.
His wife, Najwa, said he was obsessed with growing the biggest sunflower heads that existed in the whole world. Oh, wow. He thought that his sunflowers should be in the Guinness Book of World Records. What?
Yeah, he was very proud of his sunflowers. And Damasine Farm brought his whole family joy. He took his family down there at weekends and they had a swimming pool down there and horses down there that they could ride occasionally when it was harvesting of sunflowers time. They would come down from the cartoon because they still live in cartoon.
And all of the employees from Damasine Farm would be sent away out of the whole area so that the wives and the kids could get out pairs of scissors and come out into the fields and cut down sunflowers for a few hours. Oh. It's a nice thing to do when you're stuck in the house most of the time to get outside and take your veil off. And this brings us back to Abdullah Tifnasar.
He was the sunflower man, so... So after that interview with Shelby, I went back to the US government's declassified file on Abdullah Tifnasar and looked back over what it said about his time in Sudan. It didn't mention sunflowers. But it did say that he worked for two years as a production overseer.
Managing sort of from above, making sure people had enough resources and enough people on the field. So it seems to possibly match her story. But then it made me wonder what else was happening at that farm? How often would Osama bin Laden just stop by?
Did they ever meet? Did they ever talk? What did they talk about? How did he get the job to begin with?
This is a bookish guy from the city, no agricultural experience at all. How did he wind up there? Well, Partum is a modest sized city. Lawrence Wright suggests that he was probably looking for a job, and he did what people looking for a job in Partum do.
Maybe he got a recommendation. Maybe he just wandered downtown. If you go to downtown Partum and you walk along Meccan River Street, that was a street where Wadi al-Aqik, the bin Laden holding company, was. The mother of old companies.
Suleman Baldo again. He was visible for everyone. And if you were walking down that street and you were talking to someone, where do I find a job? They say, well, walk over there and knock on the door.
Presumably, that's what he did. You walked out of the door, knocked, and then applied. Would bin Laden have interviewed every person who worked for him or no? He was not that kind of bosser.
Well, so every case is different. This is Wesley Wark. He's a Canadian academic. My specialization has been in the fields of national security issues, including terrorism.
I'm not familiar with what might be noted about Mr. Nasser's involvement in Sudan, but bin Laden himself personally interviewed sort of key leadership and management. What a weird job interview that must have been. I actually later found testimony from someone else who worked on that farm, who said that Osama bin Laden preferred to interview job candidates himself for roles on the farm all the way down to assistant managers, which could have included ability for Nasser.
Please answer the required information accurately and truthfully. You can actually find online this job application. To be fair, it's not for the farm. It's an al-Qaeda job application.
Today's date, nickname, father's name, alias, grandfather's name. He probably didn't fill out this particular application. Education level, primary, elementary, secondary. But it's weirdly corporate.
List the experience or expertise that you have in any area. What's your favorite material? Science or literature? But by all accounts?
Please answer in the language you know. These job interviews were about. Please write clearly and legibly. Was not really technical competence around whatever particular function bin Laden wanted to see a person occupy.
They apparently were interviews around. How much of the holy corona have you memorized? Proges to Islam and... Did you study Sharia?
Who was your instructor? Religious and ideological purity. What ideas and views do you, your family and your other acquaintances have about jihad in all his sake here? So they were being assessed in that light.
That can be cast to suggest that anybody went through that process and passed that interview must have been, you know, by definition committed to jihad. I'm not so convinced by that. Wesley Wark has another idea. I mean the thing to keep in mind is again Sudan's very poor country.
You didn't have much of a managerial or professional class. So bin Laden as he embarked on this commercial empire building in Sudan, the state within a state, was desperate to hire people with some professional qualifications. Even if it was a city kid and nastards case with a bit of a university education, that still would have made him stand out perhaps from many of the people that would be available to assist bin Laden in many of these enterprises in Sudan, given the dire poverty of Sudan, and economy. So it's like you're looking at the waiting room outside of that job interview and you're like, okay, that's my guy.
He looks like management material, at least compared to everybody else. Yeah, it's about some university education, probably well spoken, capable of managing and organizing, you know, who knows. But all of that kind of thing could go through your mind to make it less suspicious that a city kid would find himself working on a pharmacy again. You should be a lawyer, I think.
Okay, so whether it's because he was personally suited or ideologically primed or just the best of the bunch who showed up, Abdullah Dif Nasser lands this job on Osama bin Laden's farm. Now, one of bin Laden's former associates wrote that for those years they went in Sudan, quote, al-Qaeda was 99% a construction in agriculture company. But about that other 1%. He loved being this plantation owner and having this vast holdings and he loved imagining himself as this great international businessman.
Yeah. At the same time, he missed the thrill of combat and the aura that surrounded him as the great Muslim warrior. So while he presented a public face of being a warrior on the road to peace, behind the scenes, he was funding and encouraging violent actions abroad in places like Somalia, Algeria, Egypt, Yemen. There are incidents in which the companies were covered for military jihadi in multiple countries of the Arab Islam world.
However, I'm not sure that each and every individual who worked in these different companies or farms would be by necessity a fighter or jihadi. But what about Abdullah Dif Nasser? For those approximately two years that he was on Osama bin Laden's payroll, managing sort of from above, was Abdullah Dif just working a normal boring desk job or was he in on it? I started to dig, to research the company, to research the farm and the deeper I dug, the more evidence I found.
But the more evidence I found, the more I swung back and forth. So let's start on the most basic level. How big was this Osama bin Laden company? Wadi al-Kik?
Well, it was massive. Around that time, it had about 10,000 employees. American companies now in that same ballpark? Netflix, Reebok, Wendy's.
So this is a big company. And there were different enterprises. And it wasn't even really one company. It was a cluster of companies.
The Al-Hidra Construction Company, the Al-Kudurat Shipping Company, Tannery, a Biggeri, an investment bank, even the Al-Eklas Candy Company, who knew Osama bin Laden owned a candy company. There were at least two agricultural companies. One was called the Blessed Fruit Company. And they were pretty big as well.
And as for the Domazine Farm? It appeared to employ about, my recollection is there were about 4,000 people, which is a considerable workforce for a farm. Huge. And the reason they had so many employees was that the farms, and in particular, the Domazine Farm, were enormous.
Well, I don't know exactly how big each one of them was. One of them, he said, was bigger than the United Arab Emirates. Oh my God. That would be roughly the size of the state of South Carolina.
So they were considerable size. And not only that, the Domazine Farm was several hours drive from the company's headquarers in Cartoon. And this is in the 90s in Sudan. So, pre-video conferencing, pre-internet.
So, huge company, huge farm, super remote. So, so far, it feels like blaming someone who works on this farm for being Al-Qaeda feels like blaming someone behind the counter at your local Wendy's for what the CEO believes or does in his spare time at corporate headquarters. I must confess, it goes back a number of years back. Wesley Warr actually told me the story of a different guy, an Egyptian guy, who worked a job just like Obla Thief's at that same Sudanese farm the year before Obla Thief started working there.
But he was very individual by the name of Muhammad's name, Madjube. Madjube's story is actually very similar to Obla Thief's story. He was a foreigner in Sudan, couldn't find a job, ends up interviewing with Osama bin Laden. They do an hour and a half or two hour interview where he claims bin Laden never even brought up religion.
Madjube gets the job and then spends a year overseeing not just the irrigation and cultivation of what he says is a million acre farm, but also managing 4,000 workers who reported directly to him. According to this guy, Madjube, in that year-long stretch, he only met bin Laden three times. And each time it was totally mundane, just reporting on day-to-day operations, that kind of thing. This guy from Humm and Zechim Madjube would face deportation hearings in Canada, in large part for having that job in Sudan.
It gets into that gray area of kind of guilt by association. The argument seems kind of thin. That is until you realize who else worked at the farm. It's like a big farm, especially like Demazin.
You're going to see a lot of veterans at the Afghan war because that's who was employed in these places. Again, former CIA analyst Cynthia Storrer. A lot of Arabs and Arab types. So like if I'm at one of these businesses, if I'm at Wadi'alakeek at the Domazin farm, and they call a staff meeting and I'm like looking around the table at who's here, who am I looking at?
I'm a lot of people from a lot of different nationalities and radical groups. You could be, you know, I'm the manager of X, but I also attend or run a training camp. Thanks to the later testimony of an al-Qaeda guy who worked in the business. We have a pretty good estimate of how many of the 4,000 farm employees were actually members of Al-Qaeda.
Of that workforce, about 500 people were actual al-Qaeda members. Okay, so the majority of the people on this farm were just doing farm jobs. But about one in eight were likely affiliated with Al-Qaeda. Okay, so now you might think this looks kind of suspicious again.
But it turns out these violent revolutionary al-Qaeda guys working on this farm, they're very, very quiet. They thought of themselves as a clandestine and elite group. They wouldn't just let anyone in. And given who Abdullah Tif was, on paper it seems like he was much more likely to be one of the majority of civilian employees rather than one of the minority of al-Qaeda plotters and fighters hidden amongst them.
I totally believe that. Journalist Kathy Scott Clark. I mean, if he's got no previous military experience, he's never trained in an al-Qaeda camp. He's never fought in Afghanistan.
No, he hasn't. And then there's absolutely no way he's going to be let into any details about any kind of military training at the farm. And the Major Hadeen fighters would have kept totally different. He would have kept totally separate from any civilian employees.
Interesting, huh? You know, to support that position, I reached out to Ali Sufahn, the FBI agent who interrogated so many people, and he wasn't really familiar with him. And then I asked Muhammad Ali by eyes the business manager of bin Laden's enterprises in Sudan. And he said to me that he didn't ring a bell.
Also, it was some of bin Laden who had a personal secretary while he was in Sudan, a guy named Wadi al-Haj. That personal secretary had a phone book at the time. We managed to get a copy, looked up, ability's name, and did not find it. So it could be that he was just a low-level employee.
Kind of sort of sitting in a dusty office outside the field and the people who get paid $200 a month come and clock into him every morning and he makes sure that they're doing their jobs properly. That doesn't mean that he's a senior al-Qaeda character at all. There's actually some basis for this point in a declassified summary of a US military interrogation of Abdul-Adith in 2004. In the report, it says, quote, when asked if Osama bin Laden ever spoke directly to Nasser, Nasser related his only interaction with Osama bin Laden was to share greetings when they would pass by each other.
Nasser stated that he was unsure if Osama bin Laden knew his name during that time in Sudan. During that same interrogation, according to the report, ability claimed that it wasn't until the end of his two years working in Sudan that he realized that such a thing as al-Qaeda existed and that Osama bin Laden and all these guys working around him who fought within Laden in Afghanistan were part of it. Now, granted, that could all be a lie, it could be a faulty memory, it could be a falsehood elicited through torture, but it does seem possible. You know, like every TV news interview of a neighbor who's like, I had no idea what was going on next door.
But that makes me wonder, what were these al-Qaeda guys on this farm actually doing? But one thing I haven't said, which I should say is that there was a small area in a far far-flung part of the farm where he did kind of put together this little, what are they called, the al-Qaeda refresher course? Oh, wow. That was in farm, very, very large farm.
A portion of that farm, the northern reaches of it were given over to what was called refresher training in firearms and explosives use by certain al-Qaeda recruits. I mean, a lot of Mujahidin had come from Pakistan with him or had arrived subsequently to him arriving in Sudan because they had nowhere else to go. And so, for stopping going crazy because they trained as fighters, they had these little refresher courses which were run at Damazin. So the Damazin farm wasn't just a pretty field of watermelons and sunflowers.
Then again, this was a farm the size of a small U.S. state, and the training camp was supposedly tucked away in the very northern edge. Do you think it would have been possible, I mean, just based on what your previous knowledge, do you think it would have been possible to work there and not know about that stuff? No.
Absolutely not. There are other places you could work and not know. You could work for some charitable organizations, like Big International Ones, and not know that particular office was full of jahatis because they might do all their bad business in the back room, right? Right, right.
But you couldn't be a Damazin at night, no. How does she know that? I'm not sure. I need to go back and check.
How many people has she interviewed who actually lived in that place at that time, who are not being tortured and will say anything to get you to stop? Right, right. We went back to Cynthia's store to ask her how she did know that. The answer was that it's classified.
Coming up, Abdullah Peeff leaves his job at the farm, or actually, his job at the farm leaves him. And this is Matt from San Jose, California. RadioLab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world.
More information about Sloan at www.sloane.org. Hi, Lulu here, and this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and as someone who reports on mental health, who likes talking to people about their mental health, and what they look to in science, in the natural world, in faith, in friendship. Wherever it may be to help guide them through the rough patches of life, I just wanted to take a moment to say what seems to help people turn corners, find relief, get out of ruts, and even feel flourish is having someone with you.
As much as we can feel private about our mental health struggles, you do not have to go alone. So this may, why not treat your mental health to a buddy? And who better to talk to than a fully licensed mental health therapist, with over 30,000 therapists available, better help has someone you can talk to available at any time that's convenient for you at the push-up button, and because finding the help you need often depends on the therapist's client vibe or rest assured, it would better help you can switch providers at any time. Remember, truly, your mental health matters and you don't have to go alone.
Find support you need at any time with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com. On the broadside, we take you into the heart of the south, with stories that'll surprise you. Bigfoot apparently loves glow sticks.
Next to party, exactly, he's a raver. And topics that dig into the muddy margins of history. Right, but go to the bad, the ugly. It's not clean at all.
It's so messy. Wait a second, this is actually real. Listen to the broadside, one story every week, exploring the rich traditions of the south. I'm Lathith Nasser, this is the other Lathith.
And now the story of how these two men with three names leave the farm with sunflowers behind. Towards the end of Bin Laden's time in Sudan, America began to get upset about what he was up to. This is journalist Lawrence Wright again. And they suspected that his money was behind a lot of different terrorist groups, which it was.
He was funding, for instance, the Islamist group in the Algerian Civil War, trying to stir up the Somali situation. His family disowned him because he was attacking the king. That would be the king of Saudi Arabia. And the family, and I think the royal family, sent Jamal Khashoggi, who was a very prominent journalist who knew Bin Laden and had been his friend.
They sent him to Sudan to try to get him to renounce violence. So Jamal, he was friendly enough with Bin Laden to take a sit down and have dinner. And every night that Jamal was in cartoon, every night course was lamb. They would sit on the floor and eat with their fingers as a better one custom.
And the very first night, Bin Laden told Jamal that he was opposed to violence. This is not the way we need to achieve our goals. And Jamal said, I have my tape recorder. Just say that publicly.
And you will be forgiven. You will be able to return to the kingdom. Bin Laden said maybe tomorrow. So Jamal came back the next day and Bin Laden didn't want to talk about it.
And he came back one more day and said, you know, Osama, I'm leaving tomorrow. You know, if you want to make this statement, I'll be in the Hilton. And Bin Laden never made the call. June 26, 1995, there's an assassination attempt against the Egyptian president.
Al-Qaeda is blamed. And pressure began to be put by the American government on the Sudanese government. And then finally, the Sudanese government decided to agree with the Americans and drive him out of the country. On May 18, 1996, Osama Bin Laden, his family members, and some of his closest allies, Bordeaux Plain, and Flea Cartoon.
Bin Laden, when he was booted out, he had to leave, you know, really quickly. What did they leave hanging there in Sudan, if you know? Curtains? Everything?
I mean, Nadia was the first of the most chatty, friendly wife. They were told they could only pack one suitcase each. So everything that they had in the house is furniture, everything, just one suitcase each. And she says that the plane was kind of segregated with Curtains, so that all the wives and children of Osama plus the wives of Madhya Hadeen fighters who were returning with him, all kind of sat behind the black curtain.
The men sat in another section of the plane. And the women, I don't know about the men, but the women didn't know where they were going. Bin Laden was chased out of Sudan, one of the great diplomatic goofs of our history. His land was simply confiscated along with his machinery and so on, his factories.
I think part of what caused Bin Laden to decide just a few months after to declare war on America is essentially held America responsible for forcing the Sudanese to get rid of him. So the Sudanese, after stealing everything, they could flew him out of there to Afghanistan and the Al Qaeda as we know it was born. So now here's one of the most perplexing parts of the story, and it's where Abdul-Ithiv comes back in. He wasn't on that plane.
According to declassified US government documents, one day Abdul-Ith went from his job on the farm to go to the company headquarters in Cartoon to pick up his monthly paycheck. And when he gets there, he realizes everyone's just gone. He didn't know Bin Laden had left. He just got left behind.
I would imagine just a picture of what happens when Nasey goes up to find out why he's not been paid. It's that there'll just be empty offices, kind of windows flapping open. I mean, nothing there. Everyone's gone.
Everyone's cleared out on one day. Wow. There were probably a lot of people like Nasey who went in to get their paycheck and found that their boss was no longer there. If you read the leaked government documents, they say that Al Qaeda-Ithiv Nasey was supposedly one of Osama Bin Laden's top military advisors.
Was he? He definitely doesn't seem like he was at this point. Certainly not important enough to have been on that plane. But this isn't the end of the story.
A little over a year later, Abdul-Ithiv would once again be in the same country as Osama Bin Laden, where allegedly he, Abdul-Ithiv, caused all kinds of trouble. In the next episode, we come to the decisive moment. We came in and we threw a blue E2 at that one. A.D.C.
Dan Harris reports now from the front line. 16,000 pound device was dropped. US fighter planes at B-52s dropped their payload. Where ability from Nasser actually comes into focus.
And a certain point, it was as if he had decided to just tell the truth. For the first time. This episode was produced by Susie Lachtenberg, Sarakari, and me, Lathiv Nasser, with help from Niza Nando. Fact-checking by Diane Kelly and Margot Williams, editing by Jad Abumrod and Soren Wheeler, original music by Jad Abumrod, Alex Overington, Jeremy Bloom, and Amino Belliani.
Next episode, one week from today. This is Lina Abele Saunders from Temecula, California. Radio Lab is created by Jad Abumrod with Robert Kowich and produced by Soren Wheeler. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design.
Susie Lachtenberg is our executive producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bresler, Rachel Kusick, David Gebel, Bessel Hepti, Tracy Hunt, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Lathiv Nasser, Sarah Kari, Ariann Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. With help from Shema Oli Aye, W. Harry Fortuna, Sarah Samback, Melissa O'Donnell, Tab Davis, and Russell Gragg.
Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris.