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Today's guest is Russell Brunson. He's the CEO and co-founder of ClickFunnels, which is now the fastest growing non-venture backed software company in the world with a following of roughly 2 million entrepreneurs. Along with his partner, he took ClickFunnels from zero to roughly $100 million in revenue in just three short years. And on top of all of that business success, he's also an accomplished author and an extraordinary state champion, All-American wrestler who finished his college career as one of the top 10 wrestlers in the country, Russell.
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. It's really cool to have you here. Obviously, we've gotten to know each other from our trips to Puerto Rico, and I have to say, I'm very impressed with what you've accomplished.
And given what everybody is going through right now, I wanted to start with some of the lessons that you actually learned in wrestling. You've talked a lot about hard work and what you learned through the process. One, what makes you good at wrestling? I think that's where I want to start.
So it's funny because I know that I wasn't ever the best athlete, but I'm super grateful for a dad who was really good at watching what I would do and like mistakes I made and sitting down with me and figuring out how to fix things. I was never like the guy who's undefeated. I was never the guy who won every match. I was the guy who would lose a match and come back and sit down and figure out what were the mistakes, what adjustments can we make, and we'd practice and practice and practice.
The next time we go out, we'd win. And so I think that's kind of what made me a great wrestler. That is awesome, dude. I love that story.
I love the way that, you know, when if somebody wins just from the jump, they're sort of naturally gifted. One of the things about Bo Jackson that I always found sort of heartbreaking is when you ask him, like, what made you so good? He's always like, No, I'm just naturally talented. And I was on a crushing because it's like I'm not naturally talented.
So for me, everything has sort of been this ramble of trying to learn. But I went through this, that period you talk about of the sort of devastation where you expected to kill it and then you lose and you're like, Oh, shit, I went through that in film school where, dude, I thought I was just going to dominate. I thought that I was a natural born filmmaker. And look, I had my fears that maybe I wasn't, but like, I was sort of cruising on this, you know, I'm good at this.
I have natural talent. And then I really got faced with the fact that I wasn't naturally talented. And in fact, at the time, I didn't have really any talent for this thing that I love at all. And so my life one, I went through a really dark period because this is all before mindset and stuff like that, that that word had not entered my vocabulary at all at the time.
And so I had no sense of, oh, I can build myself up. I can get better. So it's rad that your dad really helped you, you know, focus on improvement and getting better. Talk to me a little bit about because talk to me about discipline is where I was headed, because I think that what we're going to see in through COVID-19 and the crisis and what I think is going to happen to the economy, which is going to be less than ideal.
It's going to be somewhere between less than ideal and catastrophic. And so I think what the people who are going to win are the people that are going to be able to start over. And one thing that you've talked a lot about, you certainly talk about in your newest book, Traffic Secrets, is understanding that, look, some things could just go away overnight. And how you respond to that is going to be really, really essential.
So what's the role of discipline in your life? How can people get more of it in their own lives? Yeah, I think a lot about like, you know, obviously I help work with a huge entrepreneur, a community of entrepreneurs, and like a lot of them are freaking out right now for all the all the normal reasons. And what's been interesting is watching a lot of them who just like frozen up right now, where it's like, I don't know what to do.
And as I worked and talked through it with a whole bunch of them, it's like understanding that so many of them are so scared of like failure, so scared of whatever the next thing is, that they never they're not willing to like to take the step. And so they're just frozen, which is like the worst, the worst possible thing. I think one of the most valuable things I got out of wrestling that that ties back to this was like when you're wrestling, you step on the mat and when you lose, it's like I lost this match. But you don't ever says like I'm a loser.
Like I lost this match. I'm gonna go figure out what I need to do to win next time. Whereas it seems like with business, so many people have it tied to identity into there to everything that when they lose, they say I'm a loser. It's because of that, like they're scared to lose.
They don't feel like a loser. They're scared of, you know, maybe they have a dream or a vision. They're scared if they try to fail, that the dream will disappear. I think I think the biggest thing that's helped me throughout this, I think that I think most people need to have is just is going in with the expectation of like, it's okay if I lose.
It's okay if I fail. Like that doesn't mean I'm a failure. It's like this, the situation failed, but then when you detach yourself from that, then it's so much easier to be like, okay, what was wrong? What do I need to tweak and go out and try it again and try it again and try it again.
Because so many people are just so frozen right now. And I think that's the that's the biggest thing I think with mindset is just help people to detach the consequences of the failure being their own and as opposed to failure being being like a match, like a thing that just that failed that you can go back and fix and figure out the next step with. That makes sense. It does.
One thing. So I wrestled exactly one time in my life. It was for, I want to say, what's what's the normal round? Three minutes?
In high school, it's like 2-2-3, yeah, two minutes. Okay, so probably two minutes then. And it was, I'm not joking. It was the single most physically exhausting thing I've ever done in my life.
It felt like I was fighting to survive. I ended up, so this was back in middle school. This is before MMA. I ended up putting the guy in a headlock and basically just trying to choke him because I was so fucking tired.
I was like, dude, I have to do something. Like, I'm dying over here. And so in that, I realized, yo, people that get good at this, this shit isn't human. So what I want to know is, how do you like pain?
So there's an awesome quote. I wish I remembered who said it, but fatigue makes cowards of us all. And I think that people are going to face fatigue in this, like the having to get up and try and try and try again. If they've lost their job, the thought of rebuilding, imagine somebody in their fifties losing their job now.
And they're like, yo, I've got to rebuild. Like, I'm fucking tired. The thought of having to start from scratch is bordering on unbearable. What did you discover falling off the...the cliff and Batman asks, why are you trying to kill me?
And the Joker starts laughing. He's like, I'm not trying to kill you. He's like, he's like, without you, there's no me. I can't do what I do without you.
And I feel like that's been such my mindset. In fact, you know, we passed that company. It's like, hey, who's the next people? And we found who they are and I'm studying them and understanding at a deeper level.
And like, and so for me, it's, I don't get to be in business where it's just a business just to grow or I don't know, without a, without a goal or purpose or something to strive towards and to move, move, move forward. I remember reading, I think it was Napoleon Bonaparte said something about, um, what man will do for a, for a scrap of ribbon. I feel like maybe that's like in wrestling, that's what it was for me. Like I had to go and I went to a state champ and I was all America.
Like I kept going for the, whatever that scrap of ribbon I had to get it. And I feel like in business, it's the same thing for me. It's just like, it's a game, there's competitors. We're trying to figure out the landscape, where we fit in and how we, how we pursue and how we go after them.
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That's I-N-C-O-G-N-I.com slash impact and use code impact. Dude, I think that is genius. So as somebody, I didn't like being competitive when I was younger because I was afraid I was going to lose. And of course, I didn't want to say that.
So I was just saying, or I may not even have understood it if I'm completely honest. It triggered some something in me which I would now recognize as insecurity, which I can now articulate as I had this fear of having proof, empirical data that I wasn't good enough, which of course is my biggest fear when I was a kid. And now getting into business and realizing, yo, motherfucker, like you've got to be going hard. And this is like, look, I like you.
I would be shocked if somebody was interpreting my competitiveness, my desire to win as hate, but it is what I call the dark side. It is a dark energy, right? There's the light side, which is the beautiful things I want to create and the gratitude I have for what I have in my life and all of that. And it's amazing.
But then there's also the competitive side of wanting to win and saying, look, I'm going after that person. And the people who, so I'm not a sports guy, but because of my mentality, I constantly find myself drawn to athletes. So I'll use that language, but please don't mistake me for an athlete. But when you talk to the guys that are really, really great and you look at the amount of tape they watch, like how they've studied their competitors, they study themselves.
They stare nakedly at their inadequacies. It, it, dude, there's something there. And the fact that people don't put in that time and energy to learn what is going on is crazy. The amount of insights you'll get are extraordinary.
And that to me is, is the power. So as we go into, um, this, which probably is going to be a recession, might be a depression. Um, how do you think about overcoming the obstacles that are going to come your way? How do you avoid falling into the trap of thinking that, you know, everything already, like how do you stay nimble?
Um, that's a good question. You know, at this point, our company is so big that you have a lot of friends who are solo entrepreneurs and they're able to be nimble because like, it's just them and they can, you know, but now we've got 400 plus employees and it's a, it's harder to be nimble. I think it's been interesting because I've been trying to, trying to figure that out. And, um, you know, one of our mutual friends, Dean Graziosi, I talked to him about this a lot as everything started hitting things, start shifting.
And, uh, and I remember watching him because I, again, I'm, I'm kind of a marketing nerd. So I remember when I was in high school, I used to sit back and I would watch infomercials. I remember I watched Dean on infomercials back when I was a kid and like I would take notes and like, Whoa, I like the way he said things. Um, I remember watching, um, as it came up to like the last big recession, watching all Dean's infomercials.
And at the time there was probably, I don't know, 30 different get rich in real estate infomercials on TV. Like anyone who ever flipped a house in their life were like, I'm an infomercial guru and teaching people how to do it. Right. And then the recession hit and the housing market crashed and it went from like 50 infomercial gurus to like three down to one.
And then there was just Dean and Dean continued running infomercials the entire thing. And then, uh, and then, and then beyond. And I remember, I didn't know him at the time. I remember watching it and just being interested in how, like, he was, he was the only one still on.
And so I asked him later, how in the world did you, did you survive when everyone else got crushed? And he said something super profound. He's like, if I didn't shift, I didn't shift, um, my product. I mean, my product was still the same.
He's like, I shifted my marketing and my product. He said, everyone else was speaking very aspirational. Like how do we, how do we create this thing? You know, how do we, how do we get rich?
How do we make money, things like that. And he's like, I shifted for me an aspirational to, to looking at my business more as like a life preserver, like, like how do you, how do you protect yourself and how this product can protect you? And uh, so as we started coming into this thing, I realized the same thing. Like, um, in fact, I talk a little about in traffic secrets.
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All right, guys, take care. Be legendary. I love that idea of simplification. That's something.
So do you know Noah Kagan? Yeah, I do. All right, super interesting guy. And I think one of the things that makes him so effective, he said his superpower is making money.
But what he means by that is his superpower isn't simplifying. It's in breaking the process down into immediate action. And those two things, simplifying it and then taking immediate action to me, are the exact things people need to be obsessively focused with right now. Because right now, first and foremost, if you're in a dire situation, take care of your basic needs, man.
Don't worry about launching the next Facebook. Make sure that you've got a roof over your head and you can put food on the table. And that's where a lot of people are going to crash and burn is, Yo, Maslow's hierarchy of needs has stood the test of time for a reason. There are just certain things, safety, security.
Get those taken care of. And you may have to do a job that you didn't want to do, or you may have to call people up and be banging the phones if you're trying to keep a product that really has value in stock. You don't know how to get it out. You've got to think like a direct marketer.
And this is where I think my own story confuses people because I'm so intense and I've got that rah-rah spirit. But the reality is I'm not a burn the ships at the shore guy. I'm a, Yo, keep your day job, man. When we launched Quest, we had a software company.
So during the day, I was running a software company and nights and weekends, I was making protein bars because I wanted to see if this would work, like you're saying. Make sure there is an audience before you go, like, we didn't get a warehouse and start buying equipment until we were selling protein bars. I don't even think we bought the equipment until we were already profitable. So we were making the bars by hand, which was pure insanity, making bars by hand ourselves nights and weekends to make sure that there was something real there.
So what advice do you have for somebody who's like, Yo, I just lost my job and I feel totally out of control. What can they do as a solopreneur to get that first audience to get that first sale? Yeah, I want to first off agree with you. People message me all the time, like, I read your book.
I'm going to quit my job and do this thing. I'm like, no, like, no, don't quit your job and do the thing. Keep your job. Because, you know, as well as I do, like when you have that, like the uncertainty and like it makes the pressure so much higher and it makes it so much harder to like get creative and get bigger things out when those needs are met.
It's so much easier to go figure things out. But someone like, it's funny because I've had this conversation with some close friends who've lost their jobs, who are freaking out right now. And I try to explain to them, like, you have to understand that like the money didn't just disappear, right? Like we're in this great wealth transfer.
Things are shifting around. Like I don't know if you know Perry Belcher, but he's one of my friends who owns Survival Life.com. And you look at Survival Life in the last 30 days has made more money than the last like 10 years combined, right? Like money is shifting over there.
You look at, you know, like, and it's not that it's disappeared. Like people still have money. They're just not going to the movie theaters and restaurants. They're spending it other places.
And like, it's understanding that. And so if your whole world just got pulled away from you, it's not that the money just evaporated. It just got transferred somewhere. So the first thing people are looking like, where is this getting transferred?
Like where are the companies and the businesses that are making more money right now? Like they can't handle it that they're looking for more help because, because man, also because of this new circumstance, everything is just growing like crazy. That's the first thing. Second thing I look at is like, what is the skill set that is the most valuable inside of a company?
And I've got a friend who's a dentist. I tease him all the time because you know, most dentists, like they're the dentist. Like that's the most important person in the business, right? I'm the person who does the thing on people's teeth.
I had this whole conversation. I'm like, you're not the most important person in your business. He's like, yeah, I am. Without me, they can't clean teeth.
I was like, I was like, the most important person in your business is the person who can get customers to come in the front door because that person can't bring customers in the front door, give you no teeth to clean. Therefore, your skill set is useless. Like the most valuable person in any company is the person who we call rainmakers, who can make it rain, who bring people in. And so like, that's what it comes down to.
Like this book traffic secrets. It's like the person who can drive traffic and bring the customers in becomes the most valuable person in any company. I have friends who are so good at driving traffic that they literally will find a company that's struggling or maybe on the downside. They'll come and say, Hey, look, I can bring you the thing that you're missing.
It's the Holy grail for your business and all businesses. It's customers. And I can bring you as many as you want, as often as you want. The only thing is like, I don't work for money.
I work for equity. So if you want me to do this, I want 30% of your company. And people are like, just hand him in the company. Here you go.
If you can bring, you can make it rain. You can bring me customers. You can bring leads. And so like I start shifting.
Like if I got to figure out a skill set in this market, it's like most valuable thing I can learn is how do I make it rain for a company? And then I go plug into companies I like find, like whatever that is, but now you're so valuable that like when, when things start going down, like I So doing that and then playing the long game and building relationships, not trying to get anything in the short term, look, I'm not a fool. I get that acting in that way and adding value to somebody else, it ultimately does come back to you. Some percentage, not all of it.
But like one, it feels good in the moment. And then two, you'll be able to weather a storm because there are gonna be other people there for you. And it goes back to the story you told about Arsenio Hall, which I think is really powerful. Tell people that story.
Because one, because I have a follow-up question about it, which is, building a platform isn't the only way and I'm super curious. Tell the story because the people need to understand the punchline before I can really ask the question. Yeah, for sure. So one of the, what I talk about in the book is one of the most powerful ways to infiltrate your dream 100, to get to know these people, is by having your own platform.
Because what do I have to offer Tony Robbins? What do I have to offer, you know, these people that I'd love to be, on my dream 100? Like a lot of times they have everything, I'm not going to pay them. I'm not going to, so what I have to offer, the thing you have to offer is your platform.
And I think there's a lot of ways to infiltrate your dream 100 and get to know people, but one of the most powerful ways, for sure, is that the reason why I met Tony Robbins initially, and I did a whole YouTube video, it's like 10 minutes long, showing a 10-year journey I went on with Tony of helping him, serving him, doing all these things for him before eventually he promoted something for me a decade later. But it was like, the only way the door even opened is because I had a platform. I was able to help promote him on top of my platform and open up the doors. And so many other people I've had a chance to meet all came because I had a platform to be able to offer them and it opens up doors you can't get otherwise.
So I'm a huge believer that people should start their own show. It could be a YouTube show, it could be a podcast, it could be a blog, it doesn't really matter what, but something where you create a platform you can leverage to get to know people that own your customers. All right, well then let's talk about that. So I think we're going to see the death of an influencer class as advertising revenues dry up.
So a lot of people that have been making it their livelihood, it's going to, I think, stop being their livelihood. But any time where there's massive disruption, there's massive opportunity. And I think there's going to be a whole new crop of influencers that actually figure out how to crack this nut. So what are some of the, as the king of something with secret in the title, what are the secrets to building a platform?
Yeah, a couple of things. Like number one is, like you have to realize that first year, you are not going to be good. I remember when I started my first podcast, it was called The Marketing Your Car Podcast. I called it that because I had a five-minute commute from my house to the office.
And I was like, at least I know I'll be consistent. I'm just going to get my phone out and record and I'm just going to talk while I drive. And I did a five-minute podcast every single day for, I don't know, five or six, seven years now. It's been, it's been a long, long time.
And what's crazy, my first set up, I didn't know how to track stats. And the first three years, I had no, I just didn't know. I just set it up and I started recording and my brother published it. And I'd ask him if people were listening.
He's like, I don't even know how to check. So we didn't even know. I'm so grateful that I didn't know. Because I just kept publishing.
I'm like, I'm driving anyway. I might as well do these things. And it was about 300 episodes in when we shifted it from the marketing, your car to marketing secrets. And that time we switched the platform.
We set up the analytics and my brother's like, Oh my gosh, we're getting like, I can't remember, like 10,000 people per episode listening right now. I was like, oh, I got no idea. This is amazing. And we started looking back at the stats.
You look at like how, how little it was for so long. And then I remember one of my, this guy that came into my world, he's one of our hyper successful students now. He's like, I came in, you know, I started, I came in episode 300. I was like, I'm gonna binge listen to everything.
So I started at number one. And he's like, man, the first like 40 or 50 episodes were so bad. He's like, you were the worst ever. He's like, but about 45, 46, you started like getting in the rhythm.
And then like it started getting good. Now, like I love it. And so the first lesson is like, you have to publish long enough to find your voice. Like most people do like two episodes, like, oh, no, one's coming.
But it's like, no, you have to like make this a commitment. You've got to do this for a long time because first, no one's gonna be listening and that's okay because you're gonna be really bad. It's gonna give you the ability to like find your voice. That's number one.
Number two is, and I have an article here that from one of my friends, Nathan Berry, he wrote a blog post called endure long enough to get noticed. And he talked about and said, like, if you look at most good TV shows, like usually you don't find out what a good TV show feels like in season five or season six, right? Or movies that are like, you know, the third movie. Oh, I'm gonna go back and watch all of them now because they, they survived.
And he said that, you know, so because there's so much content being created all the time that us as consumers, we wait for the best stuff to rise to the top. And so the first thing on your publishing all the time is because you're trying to find your voice. That's number one. And step number two is doing it long enough that your dream customers can find you.
And so it's coming down and saying, I'm gonna be consistent. I'm gonna do this. I always tell my people like publish something, at least a hundred episodes. And by the time you've done a hundred episodes and I recommend at least like in a year window.
So you're doing multiple times a week. If in a year you'll found your voice, your people have found you and you'll be financially free. And so far anybody who's taken that challenge by the end of the year, they have done exactly that. They found their voice, the people found them, they've been financially free.
And so it's just like one of those things that just, it's, it's scary. It's weird. And it feels painful at first cause it's not fun when you're really bad, but then you get your stride and it just, it gets really good. Yeah, I will echo that sentiment.
So when I first started, this was back at Quest. I started a show called Inside Quest, which would be very recognizable to fans of Impact Theory. But when we first started it even though I would say that if we all have some element of talent where we get just disproportionate wins mine is for sure verbal ability. So the more I have practiced, the more energy I put into being able to articulate a message, to be able to speak extemporaneously I just got disproportionate returns from that.
So somebody else might do the same thing. If I'm getting a 1.3 X return on my time, maybe they're getting a 0.7, right? So for me, like, that's a, that's a pretty big gap. When I started, I was so frustrated.
No one was listening. I didn't think I was good at it. And I went to my producer, who I also happened to be married to. And I said, Yo, I look, I'm, I'm running a billion dollar business over here.
Like this doesn't make sense. I'm wasting my fucking time. Like, what are we doing? And she said over my dead body.
And ironically, what the exact amount of time she said was you're going to do this for a year. And she said, if at the end of the year, it's still not delivering like you don't feel that it's delivering enough value to be worth doing it, then we'll stop. But she was like, I really believe in this. I really think that you can add value to people's lives.
So just take the time to figure it out. Take the time to let the audience find you. And of course, now at the time, it was just like one thing that we were doing to try, honestly started as a way to add value to my employees. And now it's become my entire business model is predicated on creating content.
So the, the platform, as you're saying. I think that's really, really powerful. Um, one thing I would just kick myself in the face, if I didn't ask you about that, you brought up earlier, um, you've gone through cycles before. You've been in business for a very long time.
You've dealt with downturns. I want to know emotionally, you said, you know, you're coming in and you're laying off half your people. Um, you've got to convince the other half to stay and you've got to be tied to the mission and all of that. How have you stayed passionate about what and now three years later they have like I think 1.5 million women on the list, 100,000 women have gone through their weight loss courses, and how many lives, like families have been transformed and changed because of that one entrepreneur.
And then we got like Chris at chrisbeescancer.com, a guy who goes through cancer and figures out a way to actually cure himself, and now he publishes on our platform and he's now helped thousands of people who are going through this fear of like of cancer. And not that he cures everyone, but he helps people and helps them understand like all these amazing things like that's one entrepreneur on the platform. And then I could list off hundreds and hundreds of names, but for me, it's like, man, every entrepreneur we're able to affect has the ability to affect 100 or 1,000 or a million people. And so that's the impact that we're trying to have is how do we gather these gatherers, give them the tools and the resources and the knowledge they need to be able to gather their people and serve them at a high level.
And if we can do that, we'll change the world. I love that, dude. Thank you so much for coming on, man. This was a lot of fun.
Again, I just love the way that you think. I love the way that you're crushing it, man. I love your optimism for the period that we're in right now. I share that.
So brother, I salute you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Everybody, if you haven't already gone into this man's world, do it. It is extraordinary.
And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Everybody, thank you so much for listening.
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All right, guys, thank you again so much. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Let's talk about a pattern that is guaranteed to be killing your progress.
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