The Truth About Forgiving Abuse With Valerie Hudson

Have clergy or therapists pushed you toward forgiving abuse? Here’s why that’s so damaging. Before you discover the truth about forgiving abuse, confirm it’s abuse by taking our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation (They’re Not The Same Thing) Betrayal Trauma Recovery is inter-paradigm. Religious and non-religious victims can accept that reconciliation is not only unnecessary, but inadvisable in working toward the process of forgiving abuse. Forgiveness does not mean: Staying in a relationship with your abuser Spending time with your abuser Accepting responsibility for your abuser’s choices Continuing to associate with your abuser’s family and friends Continuing to associate or attend community or religious services in the same location as your abuser Staying legally married to your abuser even if you are living separately Forgiveness & “Turning The Other Cheek” When clergy and religious therapists counsel women to “turn the other cheek” by forgiving abuse or relinquish judgment against their abusers, they are putting victims in danger. “Turning the other cheek” simply doesn’t make sense in the context of abuse and betrayal: Instead, victims can hold abusers accountable by: Reporting crime Distancing themselves from abuse Forgiveness Is About Justice – Not Mercy Ultimately, forgiving abuse is about justice, not mercy. Trauma victims can find solace in accepting that it isn’t their responsibility to grant mercy to their abusers – it’s their duty to hold abusers accountable for the abuse. While this may feel daunting, victims can take small steps to seek safety. Choosing to believe in natural consequences while taking empowering steps toward safety is the process of forgiveness. Harmful societal scripts that place the burden of forgiving abuse and reconciliation on traumatized victims can be difficult to work through. Victims need a safe place to process trauma and create healthier ways to begin healing. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and find the community you need to help you on your healing journey today. Transcript: The Truth About Forgiving Abuse Anne: I am honored to have Valerie M. Hudson on today’s episode. She is a distinguished University professor. And holds the George H. W. Bush Chair in the Department of International Affairs in the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A & M University. Where she directs the program on women, peace and security. She is the co founder of the women’s stats project. You can find that at womenstats.org. And the author of Sex and World Peace, The Hillary Doctrine, The First Political Order and Bear Branches. In 2009, Foreign Policy Magazine listed Valerie as one of the world’s top 100 Global Thinkers. Welcome Valerie. Valerie: Oh, it’s delightful to be here. Anne: She has many wonderful accomplishments and books she’s written. So I encourage everyone to look at her body of work. It’s amazing, and I’m so grateful for that. Valerie will talk about her article, Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity: What It Is and What It Is Not, (A Guide for the Perplexed Christian Woman). She sent this over to me. It hits on every concern that abuse victims face when confronted with this question of forgiving abuse. Maybe a therapist or family member, or maybe clergy, told her, you need to forgive kind of advice or counsel. It is actually hurtful or harmful to the victim, rather than being helpful. So to start Valerie, thank you for writing this. It’s incredible. Valerie’s Inspiration For Writing The Article Valerie: Believe it or not, I wrote this article in a 72 hour period following the birth of one of my children. It overcame me in a rush, and I could not help but put pen to paper. So I would hold my little baby in one arm and nurse him while typing away with my other hand. I look back on that period, which is amazing. And realized that my spirit had put together many of the lessons I had learned prior to that time paid for in blood and tears. If I put them together in one monstrous essay, you would interview me one day. And perhaps to help others by some of the knowledge I gained. Anne: Well, I appreciate it. I already posted it on our Facebook page, and I’m trying to get the word out to everyone. Like read this, read this! It is so incredible, so you talk about forgiving abuse and atrocity. How are abuse and atrocity different from other offenses? In forgiving abuse? Valerie: Yes, I really think that if we’re going to talk about forgiveness. We have to understand that to forgive slights, to forgive microaggressions, those kinds of things are a very different kettle of fish. Than forgiving the person who has raped you, the person who has murdered your child. I think it’s important that while we are enjoined to freely forgive those who have slighted us. We may one day slight others ourselves. That it’s different with atrocity, because we’re never going to murder somebody. We’re never going to rape somebody. And these are the deep, deep harms that attack the soul of a human being. And in that case, I think we need to tease out what forgiving abuse means. Abuse Is A Profound Betrayal Of Trust Anne: One of the definitions you have for abuse in this article is a profound betrayal of trust, which I talk about on the podcast all the time. That years and years of psychological abuse surrounding someone’s exploitative materials use. Where they’re living a double life, gaslighting their spouse and dismissing her concerns. Lying is emotionally abusive. That is profound psychological and emotional abuse surrounding perhaps their pornography use or maybe the affairs they have. And you talk about this several times in this article. Down at the bottom, you actually give an example of someone abandoning their family due to a So? Before we talk about the forgiving abuse element of this, which I want to spend a lot of time on. Can you talk about why the world doesn’t see psychological abuse or emotional abuse, gaslighting, or betrayal in forms of living a double life with affairs and pornography as abuse? Why do you think the general population, even people in the church, don’t see that as a serious form of abuse? And recommend forgiving abuse. Valerie: I think males tend to be those disinclined to see that serious abuse. I think females tend to be those inclined to see it as serious abuse. I’m not a psychologist, so all I can say is that sometimes men have a greater ability to compartmentalize. And say yeah, I watched pornography. But hey, I still love you. That all makes sense for them. I think for most women, the viewing of exploitative material is clearly an infidelity. It’s a betrayal of trust, and it is deeply wounding. And there is complexity involved in forgiving abuse. The Truth About Forgiving Abuse: The Legacy of Male Perspectives In Institutions Valerie: Many of our religious and secular institutional leaders are men with male perspectives. And I think we see this legacy in our rape laws and other kinds of things. Where questions like, well, what were you wearing or what time of night was it? Or had you been drinking? Somehow excuse the rape, explain it, make it seem more natural that she was raped. And that is a real male perspective on things. So I see this as a legacy of the dominance of our religious and secular spaces by men. Anne: This is when it’s important for women to understand how to recognize victim blaming. I want to quote you, this is from her article. “The betrayed spouse is told to ‘make peace’ for the sake of the children, but it is often a peace based on lies and concealment of abuse.” And, this happens with use as well. When people are told, well, make sure you don’t tell anyone about it, support his recovery, keep it quiet. You’re going to be the worst sinner if you don’t end up forgiving. https://youtube.com/shorts/ixVDYZDSVfc So let’s transition into talking about forgiving abuse and your definition of forgiveness. I had never even considered before reading this article, but once I read it, I was like, yes, this makes sense. I totally get it, because I was told so many times. Why aren’t you just forgiving abuse? And so many members of our community have when we continue to hold boundaries for our own safety. Rather than recognizing that this abuse is still ongoing, I need to hold these boundaries for my own safety. People are like, what’s wrong with you? Why are you holding a boundary? You should be forgiving. because that’s what Christ says. So can you tell your definition of forgiveness? Valerie’s Definition Of Forgiveness Valerie: I distinguish between forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiveness is between you and God. Reconciliation is between you, God, and the abuser. And I think this is where the confusion comes in. I think people use the term forgiveness when they mean reconciliation. They’re confusing these two concepts. So what I ask people to do in this essay is understand that forgiving abuse means something that happens between you and God, not the abuser. And what happens between you and God is that you choose sincerely to have faith in God’s justice, not God’s mercy. But God’s justice, and you can do that without involving the abuser at all. In fact, it has nothing to do with the abuser, and because it has nothing to do with the abuser. Forgiving abuse does not mean that you have to return to a relationship with your abuser. It does not mean you have to lower your barriers to an abuser and invite them back into your life. It doesn’t mean you have to keep silent about the abuser or hide their abuse from the authorities. No, no, no, forgiveness means you believe in God’s justice, and you are not prepared to exact justice yourself on the abuser. But you will leave it to God, and you will leave it to civil authorities. And you will not stoke hatred in your heart, because you so sincerely believe justice will be done. Anne: I’ve been listening to the Psalms lately when I can’t sleep, and they put me back to sleep. And I appreciate you bringing this up in this article about David and writing the Psalms about the justice of God. Forgiveness Is About Believing In God’s Justice Anne: Thinking of forgiveness, you said this. I’m going to quote you again. Your article says, “Forgiveness is not about believing in God’s mercy. Forgiveness is about believing in God’s justice.” And that speaks to my heart and the heart of all these victims, because that is one of the most difficult things to wrap your head around. You’ve seen these atrocities. You’ve been a victim of abuse, and it seems like you can’t get help. Women might go to a therapist, or to clergy, or even in the court system right now. They’re trying to get help, and they’re not finding it. And so believing that God will hold them accountable and that they will have to pay in some way. Or that justice is served in God’s own way and in his own time. There is such a different view of forgiving abuse, because you can let that go to God and hopefully live in peace in the moment, and I just appreciated that. Thank you so much. I think that definition is perfect, especially in this context. Have you had any pushback from this definition from people? Valerie: No, actually not. I think it’s found its way mostly to women who have been abused. And I think their reaction is pretty much the same as yours. If I understood this before. I wouldn’t beat myself up for the fact that I didn’t feel good about going back to an abusive relationship. We hear folks quoting to us from the Bible. It’s up to you to forgive 70 times seven, or you remain the greater sin. Forgiving Abuse: It Does Not Involve Reconciliation Valerie: That changes completely when we understand that what God is talking about is a sincere belief in God’s justice and injustice. Civil authorities will administer it. We root it out of our own heart. We would otherwise be tempted to use the sword against our abuser. People are, I think, liberated by the notion that forgiving abuse does not involve reconciliation. And that in fact, it may be part of one’s duty to God to not reconcile when there is a chance that reconciliation will harm innocence. I think it really changes things. Anne: One of the things you talk about in the article is reporting to civil authorities. Husbands have raped many of our podcast listeners, so wife rape. Their husbands have lied and cheated them with money. Husbands commit actual crimes. Women don’t feel comfortable enough to report it. Because civil authorities chances of serving justice are very low. Women have a hard time getting justice because they are married to the person. So victims consider these things when they’re thinking about reporting. Wives can’t report to authorities in cases of psychological abuse or emotional abuse. And clergy may not believe them. Do you have anything to say about that scenario? When it comes to believing in the justice of God and forgiving abuse. When we exhaust all earthly means, and there seems to be no earthly justice? Valerie: Oh, I’m glad you asked that question. And I think it’s a compelling question. As we were talking about just a few minutes ago, I think our legal system is a legacy of male perspectives on these kinds of things. I mean, it took until the 1970s for the criminalization of marital rape. People simply assumed there was no rape before that. They were married. Creating Distance From The Abuser Valerie: Rape could not occur. He had his conjugal rights to use her body as he saw fit. Sometimes women will not count on civil authorities to administer earthly justice, though they can always count on God to administer heavenly justice. And I think that’s where the healing comes. But in cases like that, to be perfectly honest with you, I think it’s incumbent upon the woman to begin to create a distance from the abuser. God does not want you to be abused. And I think it is incumbent upon a Christian disciple to escape an abusive relationship. Anne: I want to talk about some of these, let’s say, misapplied Christian principles in the context of forgiving abuse. But before that, you quoted a scripture that I often quote to victims, and it’s Alma 5:60. I love the scripture. I quote it all the time to victims, and it says, “and now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you. And if you will hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep, and he commandeth you that you suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you. That ye may not be destroyed.” I love that scripture. He’s commanding us to be safe, not abused. He’s commanding us to step away from that. So let’s talk about some of these often used misapplied Christian principles in forgiving abuse. Turn the Other Cheek Misapplied Anne: The first one being “turn the other cheek.” So can you talk about how that principle does not work in this context? Valerie: One of the problems I think is that we are not living in the same time as Jesus Christ. And as a result, I think there are many things about the context of the turn the other cheek that are so different. So for example, one Christian theologian, James Talmadge had this to say. “Of old the principle of retaliation had been tolerated. By which one who suffered injury could exact or inflict a penalty of the same nature as the offense.” “Thus an eye was demanded for the loss of an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for life. In contrast, Christ taught that men should rather suffer than do evil. To the extent of submission without resistance under certain implied conditions. His forceful illustrations that if one were smitten on the cheek, he should turn the other.” “That if a man took another’s coat by process of law, the loser should also give his cloak. That if one was pressed into service to carry another’s burden a mile, he should willingly go two miles. One should readily give or lend his ass. These are not to be construed,” Talmadge says, “as commanding abject subservience to unjust demands. Nor as an abrogation of the principle of self protection.” “Jesus directs these instructions primarily to the apostles. Who are devoted to the work of the kingdom, to the exclusion of all other interests. In their ministry, it would be better to suffer material loss or personal indignity at the hands of wicked oppressors. Than bring about an impairment of efficiency in a hindrance of work through resistance and contention.” Forgiving Abuse: Misinterpretation Of Smiting the Other Cheek Valerie: So no, if a man has molested your 10 year old, do not offer your six year old as well. If your husband has broken your left ribs, don’t offer him your right ribs to break. If a rapist enters your home to attack you and you shoot him dead, that’s not a failure to turn the other cheek. I think that if a Christian woman gets on her knees and asks God, God will tell her in no uncertain terms. No, I do not want you to be abused. That’s not what this example of smiting the other cheek means. Anne: We know divorce feels terrible, and it doesn’t feel right. We know abuse isn’t right. The feelings confuse many Christian women. I think they often think the Spirit is telling them: No, it’s not right to divorce. Because they feel so terrible and don’t feel peace. And to women in that situation, I always want to say it’s the abuse talking. It’s this fog of abuse and manipulation that is talking. When you face abuse, when you have to confront it, when you have to make your way out of it, there’s no part of that that’s going to feel peaceful, even forgiving abust. You might have moments of peace where you’re doing the right thing, even though you feel terrible. When something is so atrocious, I love that you use the word atrocity. It is not going to feel good. There’s not going to be this like, Oh, I feel so good. This is perfect. I’m happy. This is fine. I’m making my way out of abuse. God’s Will Against Abuse Anne: It’s going to feel miserable until you can make it out of the fog. You shouldn’t let the misery and horror of realizing you’re abused stop you from making your way to safety and forgiving abuse. Valerie: That’s absolutely right. You said that is so well. It boggles the mind that one would believe such a horrible thing about God. That God wants you to stay in an abusive relationship. I opened my essay by talking about a true story of an acquaintance. Her husband would beat her up, and she would go to the hospital. And she would lie and say she’d fallen down the stairs or something. And her husband would say, don’t tell them. I’m so sorry. I’ll never do it again. And she would return to him. Then he beat her so badly she was in a coma. He was put in jail and her children were put in foster care. So tell me how God wanted that situation? Did God want her in a coma? Did God want these children in foster care? I don’t think so. If you really love your abuser, the worst thing you could do to their soul is let them keep abusing you. Let that sink in for a minute. That is the worst thing, because they are on the path to hell. Beating and abusing you is part of their progression to hell. Anne: Another Christian principle misapplied in this context is, love your enemies and do good to them that despitefully use you. Any more to say about that one? And forgiving abuse? Valerie: This is applicable if someone has insulted you or done it with some sort of microaggression. I think when we talk about abuse and atrocity, these are issues that imperil your own salvation. Scriptural Guidance On Dealing With Offenders Valerie: For example, not to fight scripture with scripture, but another scripture from Matthew, Jesus Christ talking. About forgiving abuse not reconciliation.. “Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, and then won’t change his ways, tell it to the church. And if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.” Remember that Jews didn’t have dealings with heathens and publicans. This means to put distance between you and the abusive person. Then here’s the one from Mark, which is one of my favorites. “Therefore, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, or if thy brother offend thee and confess not and forsake not, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell. It is better for thee to enter into life without thy brother than for thee and thy brother to be cast into hell. “ “And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. For he that is thy standard by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life than having two feet to be cast into hell. Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself, not for another, not trusting another. If thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee, to show thee light, becomes a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.” “It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother.” Forgiving Abuse: Gaslighting & Manipulation Techniques Valerie: This is Christ, our Savior, speaking very plainly here. He doesn’t want you to travel the road to hell. And if that means cutting off thy hand, or cutting off thy foot, or plucking out thy eye, which seems extreme and painful, I don’t think that we’re really being a disciple of Christ. Anne: This leads perfectly into the classic gaslighting or manipulation technique. When people confront abusers about their abuse. And they don’t want to take accountability, be honest, humble, or submit to God’s will. They begin to say things like, well, if you just loved me. Don’t you love me? You would be patient if you loved me. And you would wait while I got help. And I’m going to go to therapy. It’s just this grooming phase where they act repentant or like they love you. They’re saying, if you don’t allow me this, because if you don’t tolerate this while I “get better” or while I work on it. Then you’re not being Christlike, because you don’t have unconditional love. And you’re not forgiving abuse. I think the church misapplies the unconditional love idea in general. Can you talk about that? Valerie: Oh, that’s absolutely right. Yeah, I think we’ve all heard that phrase unconditional love. But you know what? It doesn’t appear in the scriptures at all. And we know that Christian theologian Russell M. Nelson has said that divine love can be called perfect. It is infinite, enduring and universal, it can not correctly be characterized as unconditional. That’s because God loves all his sons and daughters and wants them to gain salvation and eternal life and live with him forever. God’s Conditional Love Valerie: Absolutely, so in that sense, God’s love is universal, alright? However, it’s also true that if you’re headed off on the path to hell, God is there is also true. He’s not going to be happy about that and will not shower blessings upon you. He will withdraw his spirit, and he may even send you chastening punishments. But that’s actually love, isn’t it? Because God doesn’t actually want you to end up in hell. So he’s going to try to show you that this is a terrible, terrible path to be on. So, God’s love is universal. But if we’re talking about love in terms of loving favor and presence, God’s love is definitely conditional, right? Absolutely conditional. And I think that means we should emulate that. Which is, if your abuser says you need to stay with me while I’m going through this treatment program. You could say, no that wouldn’t be helpful to you. Because you would be tempted to abuse me. So why don’t I remove myself from the situation? You go through the rehab program, bring forth fruits of repentance, and I’ll be praying for you the whole time. And then sincerely mean it. Sincerely pray and fast for them. But you’re not doing anything loving. When you allow your abuser access to you, so that you can be abused again. That is not a loving thing to do to this person, who is clearly marching towards hell and not heaven. Anne: I want to say, you don’t have to set boundaries from a place of love. If you’re like, I don’t feel love for them, so I guess I can’t hold this boundary. You can do things from a safety standpoint, this is the truth about forgiving abuse. Setting Boundaries For Safety Anne: Don’t let someone manipulate you into thinking the only way to set a boundary or take a step towards safety. Is if you feel compassion toward your abuser. You don’t have to feel compassion, love, or anything to set a boundary. I’ve said this in another episode. If you witnessed a crime of a car hijacking, no one on the street next to you would say, oh, don’t call the police yet. Do you feel love for that carjacker? Are you doing this from a place of compassion? Because unless you call the police from a place of compassion and love, you shouldn’t call the police. No, it’s okay. You can just set the boundary. Valerie: And remember that God teaches us in a sense what love is like. Which is that when there is love, and that is accompanied by trust and respect, and all those wonderful things that should be part of love. Then that feels like you want to hug the other person. You want to love the other person, et cetera, et cetera. But remember, that love can also exist in the situation where you are not feeling like you want to be with them, or forgiving abuse. So let’s not confuse feeling soft, warm, and intimate towards somebody with loving them. For example, if one of my children hurts another child, I will say, look, I love you, but you’ve done something wrong here. And so you will have to change. You will have to do some restitution here. In the moment where I say, look, you’re going to have to repent. There’s going to be a punishment. You’ll have to make restitution. Can I still say I love them? Yes, yes I can. Forgiving Abuse: Tough Love & God’s Example Valerie: But let’s not confuse feeling warm and soft towards someone with loving them. Because we can do tough love. God does tough love to his children all the time. Anne: When the abuser uses that love word to gaslight or manipulate, they’re using it to say, you have to love me in the way I want to be loved. You have to overlook my bad behavior and tolerate my abuse. If you’re doing something else, you must not love me. But victims need to realize that’s just abuse. It’s not, am I being a good Christian? Am I loving him enough? That type of talk is abusive and only meant to manipulate you into tolerating bad behavior. It’s not meant to actually bring you closer together. Valerie: That’s absolutely right. And I’m so glad that You have mentioned that. Anne: I was talking to a victim, and she said I want to see him as God sees him. He is a child of God. And I said, well, read Alma 5, the wicked are seen as children of hell by God. Other places in the scriptures, it talks about don’t cast your pearls before swine, or like a dog to his vomit, or like a sow in the mire. And in my mind, helping her realize that he is wicked. And that this wickedness was going to harm her would get her to safety more quickly. Valerie: You know, I think that’s a really good point. I would feel no compunction about divorcing a child of God clearly on the path to hell. But I do think there’s a sense in which we must remember their humanity or our own humanity is lost. The Wicked Are Cast Out Anne: With those animal references like don’t cast your pearls before swine or like a dog to his vomit or references of someone being a child of hell. Being able to say the fruits of this person’s actions right now are dangerous. And they’re not healthy to me. I’m going to keep myself safe and observe from a super safe distance. In the scriptures, it does not say, and they were wicked and so we set their therapy appointments and we made sure that we dressed up and wore lipstick. It says, and they were wicked and cast out. If someone continues to exhibit the fruits of wickedness, then like that Alma 5 scripture, He commands us to cast them out. Valerie: That’s brilliant. Anne: Many women in this situation hope their abuser can see the light. What are the types of things they need to look for to see if the abuser truly has repented if he’s truly changed? Valerie: Yeah, the abuser must fully complete all the steps of repentance sincerely and bring forth fruit meet for repentance. And some crimes may be so awful that full completion of these requirements probably cannot even occur in this life. So how would you recognize sincere repentance? First of all, a recognition that you’ve abused. I think many abusers are simply unable to even recognize that they committed any sin or crime, and will blame their victims for whatever abuse happened. I think abuse is almost predicated on someone lacking any sense of personal responsibility at all. So absolutely a recognition that one has abused. Secondly, sincere remorse, great suffering always accompanies a recognition that you have abused someone. But I also know that some abusers can be insincerely remorseful. Sincere Repentance With Restitution Valerie: And so that I think is where, you know, uh, being in touch with the spirit helps. If you don’t think that person is sincere, they’re probably not. And it would probably be better for you to assume they’re not sincere. Confession, confessing to civil authorities, confessing to ecclesiastical authorities. If they can’t even do that, then it’s not sincere repentance. Restitution, that’s a big one where abusers will say, just forgive me, I won’t do it anymore. But you know, a sense of restitution. What kind of restitution would help make up for what you’ve done? Can you help repay the victim for what you’ve taken from them? And it’s possible that restitution cannot be made in this life, you know, for murder and so forth. We cannot make restitution in this life, but the abusers should be searching for a way to make that restitution. And then finally, true change. A repentant abuser will not be slipping back into abuse again. And if they do, and insist that you forgive them all over again, the abuser has not sincerely gone through the repentance process. Anne: Or that was just grooming. Where they were putting on a show to groom you. When you talk about confession, I know of many stories where the abuser talks to their clergy and says, hey, I have been abusing my wife. I’ve been gaslighting her. And the clergy will say, oh no, you haven’t. No, that’s not abuse. Or they’ll say I’ve been using pornography, and that’s abuse to my wife. And they’ll be like, no, you’re not. Forgiving Abuse: Bystanders Enabling Abusers Anne: Or I’m a addict. I’ve been using it a lot and lying about it. No, you’re not an addict. So obviously that is not going to help the abuser. Usually they only tell a partial truth. When there’s one rat, there’s 50. And so if clergy takes that partial truth and is like, you’re a good guy. What are you talking about? Instead of saying, whoa, this is serious. We need to see the whole iceberg here. We need to ferret out all the lies he’s told. Anne: Can you talk about why bystanders have such a difficult time supporting victims and in many cases end up accidentally enabling the abuser? Valerie: Again, in all the cases you’ve just mentioned, I believe the ecclesiastical authority was male. I think men are prone to give other men the benefit of the doubt, rather than other women. I do know one thing, that those things are heinous in the sight of God. That God will judge those ecclesiastical authorities with clarity and exquisite precision. So I think we need to believe in God’s justice for some of them. There was a terrible old legacy in my own church. which suggested that victims of rape needed to repent themselves. Because they were no longer chaste. And fortunately, my church has changed on this and given out very plain instruction that victims of sexual abuse are innocent. And that no one can take their chastity and innocence from them, that they hold it still. So I think that was an important change. Ecclesiastical Authorities & Abuse Valerie: I’m just aghast to hear what you said. Because as an ecclesiastical authority, I certainly would want to talk to the person who had been abused to figure out what I was dealing with here. Predators are skillful at gaslighting, not only their victims, but also gaslighting authorities. Anne: You quoted, Christian theologian, Richard G. Scott in your article. And he said, “Remember that predators are skillful at cultivating public appearance of piety to mask their despicable acts. Recognize that it is unlikely the perpetrator will confess his depraved acts. Painstakingly assure that every individual suffering from abuse receives appropriate help.” We have heard so many stories of the woman going in. She talks about the abuse, the clergy says, Oh, that’s awful. That’s terrible. I’ll help you. Let me call him in. So he calls him into the office. And then after he hears “his side of the story,” not realizing it’s all lies and manipulation is like, oh, I see what’s happening now. She’s controlling. She’s not doing what she’s supposed to do. It’s her problem. I get it now. You’re not an abuser. And so even though so many churches have policies that say we do not tolerate abuse because clergy are not educated about abuse. They’re not sure what to look for, they can’t recognize that that type of gaslighting to the clergy is not only abusive to the clergy, but also just piling on the abuse to the victim. In that thinking, okay, there’s two sides of the story, and the truth must be somewhere in the middle. They need to realize that a victim tells the truth. Training Clergy On Cognitive Biases Anne: And the abuser manipulates and lies. So the truth isn’t somewhere in the middle. There’s an absolute truth here, and they need to figure out what that is. Rather than believing a manipulator and liar. Valerie: I’m so glad you said that, because I believe many people make that mistake. They hear that one person says A, one person says C, so the truth is B. That’s not it. In abusive situations, the truth is probably either A or C. And that we do a disservice. to victims in abuse situations when we assume there’s some sort of middle ground of truth when dealing with abuse. That is so important. And I hope churches are training their clergy in these kinds of cognitive biases. Being male, believing that truth will be the middle ground between two counts. Unless they are, one of the most important things that can be done, and this certainly would be revolutionary in my own church, is that women need to sit in on these discussions also. The male perspective needs to be balanced by the female perspective, then I think it needs balancing in the case where we decide where truth lies. Anne: Absolutely, I always recommend that women report their husband’s abuse to clergy, either psychological, emotional, or their exploitative materials use. They take another woman with them who understands abuse into that meeting, that they do not go in alone. We’ve seen so many times that clergy will further abuse that victim. By saying, oh, well, are you having sex with them or are you making dinner or what are you doing? Take another woman with them to ensure she is not further harmed in that interaction. Which is happening all over the place in every denomination and religion. Forgiving Abuse: The Prodigal Son Misapplied Anne: We have women from every faith paradigm here, and it’s happening everywhere. So the last Christian principle misapplied here, in the context of abuse, is this prodigal son concept. Where, if you don’t forgive, meaning reconcile, they’re not talking about actual forgiveness here or forgiving abuse. They’re saying, if you don’t reconcile, if you don’t make sure you kill the fatted calf and welcome this guy home and give him hugs, the greater sin lies with you. Can you talk about why this principle is misapplied, and when it’s misapplied, it continues to put victims in harm’s way? Valerie: Oh, that’s great. Let’s look at the parable itself. Now, we can’t tell from the scriptures whether the prodigal son was abusing others or simply living some sort of riotous life. Nevertheless, while the son lived this riotous existence, the father in the parable didn’t chase his son. He didn’t offer to have him live at home and be provided for and enabled while he continued this type of life. Instead, the father waited in silence. We’re not told how long he had to wait. Maybe he had to wait for years. We are not told that there was even any contact between the father and the son during this time. But when the son turned around, when he repented of his foolishness. When he did retrace his steps back home, wanting only to be a servant and not to claim back his privileges. When that day came, his father ran out to meet him and embrace him. The father even held a big party to rejoice over his son’s return. Now, was the prodigal son restored to all his privileges, at least in this life? I don’t think so. I’d venture he probably wasn’t trusted with money anymore. Wait From A Distance To Observe Valerie: And he’d spent his inheritance. I don’t think the father carved out a separate inheritance for him. So even after sincere repentance, there may be some continuing restrictions or limitations. Based on a knowledge of the abuser’s weaknesses. But while the son is doing wrongfully, that love waited silently and at a distance . Not in a state of enabling or overlooking the bad behavior or running after the abusive person. I think we need to see the parable of the prodigal son for what it’s telling us. You will have to wait at a distance. Not have a full fledged relationship with someone involved in self destruction or other destruction. Anne: It shows his repentance, because he was willing to give up his “entitlements.” He’s willing to come back as a servant. If an abuser is unwilling to give up his entitlements, he feels entitled perhaps to intimacy. Maybe he feels entitled to lying, or maybe he feels entitled to a hot meal, whatever it is he feels entitled to, that he’s not willing to give up. Like, I won’t be abusive, but you have to have it with me every Wednesday. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to make sure you lose 10 pounds. Or I’m not going to be abusive, but you need to treat me with respect, which means she won’t maybe ask him questions about where he’s been or what he’s doing. That lack of willingness to give up their entitlements is exemplified by the prodigal son willing to give up those entitlements. Valerie: Yes. That’s a brilliant point. He’s willing to give up it all, eating the pig’s scraps. He’s willing to be a servant and not a son anymore. Valerie’s Work On World Peace Valerie: That’s a form of restitution, isn’t it? To give up one’s entitlement. I think that’s a brilliant way to see it. Anne: You’ve written whole books on this, and you’ve given speeches. You have this concept that world peace is available if the sexes. If men and women can get along, and if abuse is eradicated. I hate to ask you to summarize all this body of work that you have done. But could you perhaps just leave us with this idea that peace within homes and peace between husbands and wives is a precursor to world peace? I think it is so interesting. And I’d love to leave our audience with your ideas on this. Valerie: Oh, you bet, absolutely. In fact, I wrote a book that just came out this year. It’s called The First Political Order, How Sex Shapes Governance and National Security Worldwide. So if you would like the extended version, please pick up that book. But yeah, the first political order in any society is the sexual political order. It is the foundation for all human societies. Sometimes I ask my students to think of themselves as video game designers. And I say, I’m just going to give you two parameters, go make me a game. One is that within the society there are roughly two equal groups. And number two is that unless these two groups cooperate, there is no second round, everyone dies. And they say, well, you haven’t told us enough. They say, are these two groups like equals, or is one superior or one inferior? Who does the decision-making for the whole group? Is it one of the groups or both groups? How are conflicts resolved? By violence or compromise? Forgiving Abuse: Government Grant About Evidence Valerie: And who’s got access to the valuable resources? Is it basically one of the groups, or is it both of the groups? And I say, yep, that’s exactly right. Those are all political questions. And how any society answers those questions, in a sense, establishes the first political order. And that first political order will shape everything else that arises within that society. A first political order based on the subordination of women will be unstable, violent, corrupt, exploitative, and autocratic. Why? Because it’s built on a first political order at the level of every household in society. That’s domestic instability, domestic violence, domestic terror, domestic corruption, domestic exploitation, and domestic autocracy. It couldn’t be any other way. All right, so what your first political order is will determine what your society looks like in terms of violence and governance, and so forth. And there’ll be many other spillover effects. If you’ve created gender tasks so that perhaps women are responsible for safeguarding people’s health within the family, then if you subordinate women. You’re going to undercut the health of women, not only children, but also men. If you’ve gendered a task where women are responsible for making sure there’s food on the table for everybody each day. When you disempower women, that’s going to lead to food insecurity. So there are many different ramifications of a subordinative first political order. We received a four year, 1. 3 million grant from the U.S. Department of Defense in 2014. To look and see if there was empirical evidence what we were saying was true. That the subordination of women at household level led to worse nation state outcomes. In terms of violence, governance, terrorism, food insecurity, and economic performance, and you name it. Results Of Our Study Valerie: And so we did. It was a Herculean task, but we were able to examine over 160 different outcome variables on nation states. We were able to show that the subordination of women, even when controlling for other alternative hypotheses, was critically determinative in how poorly a nation would be on these outcomes. And so I think it’s true, is that what you do to your women, you do to your nation. And if you curse your women, you’re also choosing to curse your nation. This is fully in line with what I understand about God’s plan, which if God’s plan was an equal partnership between men and women and an equal loving and respectful partnership. Then to the degree that we warp that and pervert that and turn it into a subordinative hierarchy, we’ve undercut the basis of all God’s blessings. Including blessings such as peace and plenty. The Baha’i faith actually has a beautiful metaphor. They liken humankind to a bird with two wings, and they say the male wing has been strong, but the female wing has been injured and is weak. And therefore, the bird cannot fly. So we must strengthen and heal the female wing so that the bird can soar into the heavens. And I think that’s beautiful and encapsulates everything we’re saying. Which is that abusive of households will not prosper, and that subordination of women never leads to good outcomes. Not only for women, but also for children, and also for men and whole societies. There can’t be any peace on earth until there’s peace between men and women. Starting In Our Own Homes To Make The World Better Anne: I love that because I’ve been saying for years, if you want to do your part, you need to start in your own home and set boundaries around the abusive behavior in your own home. And that will make the world a better place. And also abuse and forgiving abuse is bigger than you. Societal scripting set up this situation, and religious scripting misapplied. And because of that, you’re up against a lot of misinformation and traditions that are not good for you. And if you want to make the world a better place, start with your own home. Valerie: Amen to that. Anne: Valerie, you are one of my heroes. I am so grateful that you came on today’s episode. You can find her book, The First Political Order, and her other book, Sex and World Peace, on our website at btr.org/books. We discussed at length today forgiving abuse and the article Forgiveness of Abuse and Atrocity, What It Is and What It Is Not. A guide for the perplexed Christian woman. Thank you so much for coming on today, Valerie. Valerie: My pleasure. And thank you for all the good work that you’re doing.