The Bakari Sellers Podcast tackles the most pressing current events through conversations and interviews with high-profile guests. Building upon his experience in South Carolina government and politics, and his experience as a lawyer, Sellers will talk to his guests about all topics from the world of politics. Check out the Bakari Sellers Podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sean Fennissi.
I'm Amanda Daven. And this is the big picture, a conversation show about slipping into obscurity later in the show. I'll be joined by Alex Ross Perry, the great filmmaker behind her smell and listen up to Philip, among others. We'll be talking about hard to see movies or classics that have fallen out of favor and why that might be.
But first, Amanda, we got some big news in the world of movies, and that news is that a movie is no longer a movie. Apparently, Peter Jackson's The Beatles Get Back is not a film that is coming out in movie theaters in August, but is in fact a mini-series that will be appearing exclusively on Disney Plus over the Thanksgiving weekend. How do you feel about this? I don't want to be ungrateful.
I love Beatles content. I love six hours of anything, I guess. I mean, more Beatles is sort of the animating principle of this entire documentary. So I guess just like show us what you got.
But I did read this news in my email first thing this morning, like, you know, 705, phone straight to my nose because I don't want my contacts in yet. And I was sad because number one, Thanksgiving is a lot later than August, and I need things to look forward to. All my favorites are getting delayed. Number two, like, can we have a movie?
Please? Does everything good have to be a TV show now? Could we just? Could we have a movie?
Please? Yeah, I had the same reaction. On the one hand, I'm torn because, you know, in the same way that I want the Oscars to be nine hours long, in the same way that I'm utterly content with the Irishman being five and a half hours long, I love the idea of more Beatles. Peter Jackson showed us a sneak preview of the footage he was working with during the pandemic.
He called me and he said, Sean, can I come over? And Pete came over and he sat me down and he showed me the treasure trove of archival footage that he has. And I was like, Pete, this is incredible stuff you've got here. I think what you should do is expand this into 12 hours or 18 hours.
So he went with six and I am excited to see six hours. On the other hand, I do love a good film, love a good documentary, love a good music documentary. And this is no longer that. And also, to me, the really the issue is I wanted to see them theaters.
I have not actually had a lot of experiences where I've been able to hear Beatles songs at that volume in that surround experience on iMacs. I mean, that just seems like a really cool opportunity. And now it's the opposite of that. It's sitting in your house over the Thanksgiving weekend and watching it on your TV.
And no matter how big your TV is, I can't match an iMacs. Yeah, we talk a lot about how sound is kind of like the most under-examined part of the theater and the home going versus the home viewing experience. And like, I think it was Pavarotti, you and I both went to see, which was like a nice documentary, but it was just like Pavarotti at full volume for however long. And that was great.
And, you know, I'm reminded of a star is born and just shallow at full surround sound volume. Take me back. So yes, that's an important part. That said, I think you and I are probably like wrong on this particular take.
Not wrong, but like I think this is like a bad take from us on this issue. But on the larger point, I think we're right. And of course, you and I could only interpret this in sort of an angsty referendum on the future of movies, as opposed to two Beatles nerds getting more Beatles content in our home over Thanksgiving. So we don't have to talk to our families, you know, like it's, it's, and by the way, it is like perfect family viewing.
I bet I can even get my in-laws to watch this, which is like really exciting because they like to talk more than I like watching movies. But I do see it as indicative of a larger thing of just like they don't know one cares about movies. Have you seen Starstruck on HBO Max? I have not seen it.
It was recommended to me by a couple of people, including Juliette Levin, and it's just a completely charming romantic comedy. And it's six parts each are like 30 minutes, so I think it's three hours total. And I haven't finished it yet. I've been saving it, but watch the beginning was like, wow, this is so delightful romantic comedy.
They're back. And then I was like, oh, and it's a TV series because like no one wants to make a movie of just no one. Nice movies. What are we going to do?
Yeah, I don't know. I think, unfortunately for the watch, this is a TV podcast now in many ways. You know what it is? It's ultimately a series podcast because everything is a series now.
No, that's not new. In fact, when the Beatles announcement came through this morning, the first thing I thought of was that this is just the Beatles anthology all over again, which was, of course, for those of you who have never seen it, I would recommend it. It was a three part mini series that aired on ABC, I believe in 1995 over the Thanksgiving weekend. So that's 26 years ago.
Now that series tracked really the progression of the Beatles whole career effectively, that whole kind of 10 year span where they dominated music and it showed a lot of never before seen footage and then there were the accompanying albums that featured outtakes and different compositions and recordings from their time in Germany and a whole bunch of stuff really in a sweet spot for you and I as Beatles fans coming of age. So that was a powerful document. Get back is covering obviously a very different time in the Beatles career, but it's effectively the same thing. I mean, that was six hours of Beatles documentary and this is six hours of Beatles documentary and I loved the anthology.
I'm sure I'll love get back. It's not so much about the form as it is what we were led to believe something was and then having the rug pulled out from under us a little bit. It also, it raises a question that has been at the top of my mind lately, which is, have we lost our ability to edit? You're an editor.
You are a person about a condition. So funny because as you were talking about it, I was just like Peter Jackson known enemy. It does like a long thing. He likes a long film.
He likes multiple endings. I really love Peter Jackson's movies for the most part and I'm sure he will do a great job with this. He seems to have the same kind of admiration, adoration and excitement about the Beatles that we do. But everything is so long now.
I've seen so many new movies, even just these standalone films in the last few weeks or so, so many of which are two hours and 20 minutes. And I don't do not understand. I don't get it. I do get why Starstruck is a six part, you know, three hour TV experience rolled out over time.
That's about engagement. That's about streaming services trying to keep you locked in over a period of weeks. But why is Cruella two hours and 20 minutes? Why is the forthcoming the Tomorrow War two hours and 20 minutes?
Why are these movies so long right now? I think it's the same thing. It's engagement. I think that you and I and purists and people who like editing are the only people still concerned with the, you know, form and certainly beginnings and endings.
No one cares about it anymore. They give you five and then they give you five more in the next one and then they're like, surprise, there will be three more sequels plus a TV show and, you know, like a whole comic book thing for you to buy. But also I think that people are just trying to get big streaming services. They're trying to get bang for their buck money wise and time wise.
And it's just like, well, we don't really need to cut it. We've got the time. We'll just put it on and maybe you want one more weird fight like that. No one needs.
It's always someone more just weird fights. Yeah, it occurs to me that part of the reason for that is because one of the lessons that movies have taken from TV and that I think the Marvel movies in particular have read throughout the world of movies is you need to build a world. And if you're not building a world that allows you to tell stories in the future, you're not doing a good enough job of keeping your consumer on the line. And the best way to build a world is to just keep giving backstory and exposition and that extra fight that you're talking about and more and more and more and more and more more and more.
And so ultimately then you wind up with a film that probably should have been an hour and fifty five minutes or at least conventionally would have been in 1991 and has now been extrapolated into this series of trapdoor endings where every time you think there's been a conclusion or a climax of some kind, we have to go to another place and do another thing. And it is I'm of course we're always kind of there's always a sense of false panic around conversations like this, but it does feel like it has generally changed the expectations around like the three acts structure of a movie for me. I now feel like most movies are four acts where you get through, you know, like the rising action and get through the climax and then you get to the conclusion and then you get to conclusion number two. That feels like it's I mean, I mean, I'm inclusion number two that also sets up.
You know, act one of the next thing. It's like they've brought they still do the stinger, but they also bring the stinger into the movie itself and expand it. Yeah, I agree with you. I think a lot of it ties back to the conversation that we were having earlier this week about streaming services and the idea that the movie or even the TV series at this point is just like a vehicle for other forms of content and time spent.
And it's like it's the homework that you have to do before you go read 40 other things or, you know, go online and do your threads or or whatever that the form itself kind of gets lost because no one really cares. They're just trying to find out like what happens so that they can move on to the next like stop on the monopoly board. So do you think that this is just the way things are now? Do you think that there will be an evolution in the form?
I probably should have anticipated this when Iron Man came out in 2008 because when you see Iron Man, you're like, oh, I see. They're setting up all of these dominoes so they can knock them over over the course of the next 10 years. Do you think that there's do you think that we are just on this ever growing chain of content that is interconnected to each other forever? Have you looked at your in my lives?
Yes, we are. We had daddy made you some content. Okay? Every week.
I mean, yes, and also we're being absurd, right? Like the thing that started this six hour fetal documentary because Peter Jackson had some extra footage and a place to put it on Disney Plus. Like why are we whining? You know, like who cares?
The last dance was 10 episodes because they had all the footage and they had Michael Jordan with his iPad. Like, great. Show us what you got. So that's silly.
And in some ways, and in this case, we just have new places to put things and new ways to tell stories and you fit it to to the medium. But do I also think that especially in kind of mainstream big studio franchise content were just on a never ending train of and here's the next chapter and here's the next chapter. Here's more content. Yes, absolutely.
I do. I watched the second episode of Loki this week and that episode, even more than the first episode, resembled a podcast and it was a live action commentary on things that could happen in alternate universes and the whole show in many respects. I'm sure I'm just understanding it in some ways, but it's just an opportunity to talk about what could be happening in these branched out realities that may or may not affect the future of the storytelling. So then I really like watching this series, which I think is well made and pretty funny.
I'm like, we're totally through the living glass. Like, you can just say, not only do you have to pay attention to every single storyline in this entire MCU experience, but you also have to think about potential other realities that may or may not matter to the long term story. I already stopped listening. I just say, okay, I started hurting.
I know. Okay, but do you think just the normal lovely MCU fan who's just like, it's Wednesday? Is that a real person? I'm trying to be generous.
You know, it's like my mid year. You're saying me. You're saying me. The person who's not you, who doesn't spend their whole day listening to her thinking about podcast, like Wednesday night and they're like, oh, man, new Loki.
I'm like, do you think that they turned it on? And they're like, wow, what a profound commentary on podcasting? Or are they just like, this is pretty cool. I never thought about time and space like that.
I don't know. I need to make friends with more people who are not in my line work. I think that's the thing you realize is such as bubble myself off into a series of conversations about how TV shows are podcast now. So you're saying nothing is ever going to get shorter.
Yeah. Oh, definitely not. Editing is dead. This is a new thing, but this is also not a new thing.
Like people have not known how to edit and it's just been like, well, I don't know. I'll add another 30 minutes here because I feel like it's time immemorial, right? Like. Did you watch the Soderbergh movie?
No, I haven't seen it yet. I can only watch like, I don't do all the good movies in one day shot. I got to personal it out. I can't just sit there for 15 hours.
I'm not like Loki or whatever, you know? You truly are not Loki. Let me tell you. I could be the God of Mischief.
Is that a role that you want? Don't you think it's one that I play fairly often? Yeah. What do you think the application process is like there?
You know, like what kind of references you have to provide to become the God of Mischief? Something to consider. I only bring it up because I was like, oh, yeah, right. You can still edit a movie effectively.
We'll talk a lot about No Sudden Move, The New Soderbergh movie on July 1st when it comes to HBO Max, fittingly. But that was a rare case where I was like, oh, hey, this is one hour and 50 minutes. It closes all the loops on the story and it's immensely enjoyable. God bless that man.
Soderbergh forever. Can't take it away from me. Okay, I'm in it. Well, enough confetching for now.
We'll be back next week. Thanks for chatting. Let's go to my conversation now with Alex Russ Perry. Spring Break isn't what it used to be.
It's better. This spring, stay three nights and get a $50 best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at BestWestern.
Visit BestWestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Welcome back to the show, The Great Filmmaker. Are you the first five time guest Alex Ross Perry? Well, only you would know that.
I guess I'd have to see if I could remember. I know I promoted two movies. And I know that I did one other appearance. I think you also have a horror theme to appear on that.
I was in the Criterion. You'd ship it on the Criterion episode too. So this is your the first five time, or you're like the Steve Martin or Tom Hanks of Saturday Night Live to the Big Picture. Does that make you feel good?
I'm happy to hear that. I feel like, you know, for me, your sort of network, if I can be in the company of a Chuck Closterman in terms of frequency and for me, the excitement when you're like, oh, that's a guest that delivers. We were just watching, of course, everyone. Everyone was.
We as a culture that Charles Groden talk show appearances. I mean, that's kind of what you aim for, anything podcast or mature enough that we have those guests now. Do you feel Groden-esque? No, it's too high of a compliment, much pressure.
I'm glad you're back. We were having an interesting email exchange about how we watch things, where we watch them, and what we're watching. And I was just saying on the show earlier this week that I feel like more is that my fingertips never has been. You're somebody who is a relentless consumer of movies.
You've worked in video stores. You know what it's like to be on the hunt for things. And so on the one hand, I feel like, yes, I can watch anything I want until the day that I die. And on the other hand, there is still all of this stuff that feels out of touch, that feels unable to be seen.
What's your sense of things now that all of the streaming services seem to have arrived, now that all the physical media is starting to evolve? Are we in a great moment of availability or is there still like a scarcity out in the world? Well, I think everybody like ourselves, and I assume many of your listeners knows, for 10 years now, when someone says, oh, everything is streaming. People like us know that that's wrong.
And that's just clearly inaccurate. And you can put 50,000 things available. And that's to most people, that sounds like an infinite number. And it is.
I mean, that's enough to watch a movie every day of your life until you die. But most people don't just watch things alphabetically from, you know, Leonard Melton book. So like, it just seems like this is like the same thing that Nolan talks about when he talks about how the biggest threat to his preferred method of the actual exhibition is misinformation. And how as soon as people started saying it's cheaper to shoot movies digitally and it's cheaper to show them digitally, everybody who knows nothing just said, I'm sure that's true.
And this is the exact same thing for people to say, well, everything's available. The person who's hearing that unless it's you or me or somebody with our mindset is likely to go, yeah, that seems right. Do you think that that affects a lot of the kind of fake work that we do want to show like this, the kind of cannon building the idea of creating some sense of history in the medium because you're right that there's a lot that I just can't see without a bottomless, you know, set of resources? And is that like materially hurting our ability to maybe properly understand movie history?
Why always think and this is kind of what we started emailing about and I don't remember why, but that's exactly what it is because it goes without saying that things can be cultified and they can be in the cult cannon. Maybe that's why we were emailing about cult movies when you did that, but it goes without saying that in order for something to be just above ground canonical, the key to that is unlimited access to it. And you look at something as basic as an AFI Top 100 or things like that, you know, that list from 1998, that's 100 movies that are always accessible. And you know, the thing like this that we just lived through is a month or two ago around the Oscars, my wife and I, you know, we always put together little programs at home.
We were like, let's each write down six best picture nominees that we've never seen. Maybe you've seen a couple of mine, maybe I've seen a couple of yours, but six that are new to each of us. And let's just watch those. And it was fun doing that for like a couple of weeks because every time I was like, oh, these movies are all just the easiest ones to get.
Like half of these are just on Netflix at no extra cost. And then a few of them are on HBO at no extra cost. So it's like these are the movies that people want you to have access to because they're the greatest and the most acclaimed, but they remain the most accessible because they're so great and they remain so known because they're so accessible. And if you step off that path, then suddenly you're just lost.
And I think that's really crucial. And most people don't think about that. And you look at like the work that a video company streaming or physical does in sort of shaping a cannon and you look at the way that something slips through the cracks or what I'm always fascinated by now. And this is happening a lot more is like, like, you know, criteria playing out street wise, as documentary that, you know, I would be hard pressed to find someone I know who hasn't seen that film and has considered it an absolute masterpiece for 15 years since you first discovered it.
And to most people, this is a non-existent movie that you have at best heard about and that will change from now on. And I just feel like that relationship is very under analyzed. In some cases, entire bodies of work slipped through the crack. So a director of massive importance canonical value to people like myself who spent their entire 20s seen 35 millimeter screenings at every venue in New York.
I know the value of these filmmakers. But if they miss the DVD era, they're missing from history. And now they can maybe catch up. The fact that like criteria now has Jack Revett films in the collection, which when Museum of the Moving Image did a complete Jack Revett retrospective in December of 2016 or 2006.
And that was like opening King Tut's tomb. Like that was like 12 lost films that had not been screened in some cases ever in America. And suddenly, everyone who was there, 300 people at each sold out screening had an entire new body of work that you could grapple with and understand. And then it takes 15 more years for his most famous films, Selena Jolie-Go-Boding to be available to anybody outside of probably New York or LA who has access to a revival theater.
I remember being made aware of that Museum of the Moving Image screening, I think, because there was a screening of Last Days of Disco. And I ran into a friend at Last Days of Disco and they were like, you know what the real shit is going to be is when they start showing these revet films. And there was a sense of word of mouth. And I wonder if not just the fact that we haven't had movie theaters for the last 15 months, but the fact that just the culture around for lack of a better word kind of art house independent movie going has also reduced some of that.
And I feel a bit torn because on the one hand, when you don't have those experiences and you make something available more widely, more people get a chance to see it. But it also removes a little bit of that cult specialness that I think allows a movie to kind of grow in the estimation of people like me and you, which then gives it a different valence, a different kind of critical acclaim for lack of a better word. Do you see a correlation between those two things where if something remains rare and scarce and untouchable, is that in a perverse way better for its reputation? It is until that reputation needs to cross a line.
Like it's better for its reputation. Maybe that there wasn't, you know, some like those sort of, I think they were Fox, Lourber, DVDs of all that Eric Romer movies that were the only way to see them for 15 years. Like it's better that these revet films were not available in these like really indifferent transfers because then their emergence became this sort of like magical thing, like in a clips or a comment that happened on screens in New York, often on for like 20 years. But then that can only go so far, especially, well now, when I say now meaning a year and a half ago, and especially now again, because you know those habits change and you'll always, you know, up until I came out on DVD, you would always sell out a screening of Selena and Julie Go-Bode anywhere in New York.
And then there's certain things that like, you know, that would pop up on a calendar in 2005 through 2014 or whatever and it would be like, if you haven't seen that, you have to go, that's the only way to see it. It's over three hours long. There's an old New Yorker tape of it. No one can access that.
There's a BFI DVD. That's only for the most physical media collectors. So you have to just give yourself to it for 200 minutes and you have to go do it 35 millimeter. Eventually, everyone who wants to see that will see it and they'll always be new ones every three years, but it is like, because otherwise no one knows if those movies are important enough to restore and reevaluate.
But then on the other hand, there are things that for me, like, and does it just a New York thing or an LA thing like classics like that that I never have seen or had never seen until I caught them on video when I just said, it screens all the time. So I'll just catch it at some point. I mean, that's just like, I live in a city with a great revival culture things to say. Well, that's screens all the time.
So that's why I've never seen it because it doesn't screen once every three years. And that's why I have to go that day. It's like, yeah, like once a year, X or Y movie pops up in one series or another. So I'll catch it at some point.
And that happens to me all the time, whereas like, it's always been like, if you miss this screening of the mother in the horror, you will not see that movie for four more years. So don't miss that screening because the movie doesn't exist otherwise. Talk about filmmakers that have an entire body of work that is largely invisible to the canon and to the culture due to access issues, John new stash. Like everyone in New York knows that that movie is the real deal.
And it's a movie that many filmmakers have cited as being hugely influential. I mean, it was a poster for it hanging up and it's in the whale in the ping pong room. And yet it has never been made available in this or any country past VHS. And that means it's not in the canon, even though in my mind, it's one of my top 10 favorite films of all time.
It is the canon. It is the totality of French cinema up to 1972 and 1973. And yet, say, I don't even know what that is. That's kind of an amazing thing.
Can you give me a couple of examples of some of those Oscar films that you and your wife watched? Oh, geez. The list is downstairs. I mean, I'm going to try to remember.
I mean, it's just like everyone of these is an embarrassing thing to never have seen. So I won't say who hadn't seen which. I'll just list the ones I remember. It's okay.
We watched ghost. Okay. We watched Mushraq. We watched Dangerous Liaisons.
That was a double revisit. That we did both things. I just felt worth checking back it in on. We watched Rain Man.
We watched something else from that like 88 year. Maybe that was ghost. So you were mostly watching American films that were mainstream, kind of crowd pleasers, you know, dramas in some respects. And there is like a radical difference there between a movie like that and movie like the mother and the whore.
You know, obviously one is a foreign film, an art film in some respects. And so I think that like why some films are made available and why other films are not made available is an interesting topic. Because on the one hand, there are all of these movies that are available that are obviously available. And so I think that ghost is always going to be available because it's an award winning film.
It was a box office success. It's made by features, movie stars. And then there are of course like art films that maybe you're not going to be as widely available. They come from different countries.
The distribution is confusing. But then there is a third category. There's sort of like films from major filmmakers or major artists from the 60s, 70s, 80s, even 90s that are hard to find and hard to get. And I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of availability and scarcity as much as I can lately.
I'll give you like an example. Yes, please. True Lies from James Cameron. It's a great example.
This is a great movie or at least it's a movie that I remember to be great. It's not available on Blu-Ray. It's not. I don't believe on a streaming service at the moment.
I think it's one of those. It's not. True Lies was never going to invest picture, but it was a huge hit. And it feels like True Lies has just exited the culture.
It's no longer a part of movie culture. Now is that also striking in the movie that might just be on cable a lot? Someone doesn't have cable. I can't say that.
But maybe it's out of rotation there too. I feel like it is. I'm not sure. Speaking of that, I mean, I had written down in half of Catherine Bigelow's filmography.
Speaking of, you could say the same thing about it. I'm always shocked to check back in and find out that neither Strange Days nor Mere Dark are ever available in any form. Even though Mere Dark is one of them, those are both DVDs of such ubiquitous nature as 2B-valuis. I think Strange Days was literally a budget DVD that retailed for $8.99.
And to my knowledge, it has not been streaming in any capacity for quite a while, if at all. I wonder if there is some correlation between Cameron and Bigelow there in terms of the rights to their films, because it's odd that the two of them in particular have so many examples of that. I just re-watched Blue Seal for the first time in a long time. I think I watched it on 2B TV or 2B TV.
Of course, only for reasons like this. Yes, which is bizarre, but you can for free. You can just watch Blue Seal with some advertising, which is kind of a miracle. I wouldn't say it was the greatest transfer I've ever seen in that movie.
That's a movie I would love to see on a big screen again. I've only seen it in the theater. I saw it in a Catherine Bigelow series, where I think about Strange Days as one of those movies that pops up on 35mm in New York, no more than once every 16 months. Yeah, so like, I guess why does that happen?
From a filmmaker's perspective in terms of why some things are shared and other things are not shared, why some things become a part of, you know, how does something get into a video store? How does something get into a streaming service? How does something get cable rights? Like, help people understand a little bit of how some of this stuff works.
Well, one of the things that, you know, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist or like someone who buys into like an Adam Curtis theory of media and culture, but like, if you think that you are making a choice when you choose what you watch, you are buying into one of the greatest scams of all time. Like, if you think you're making a choice of your own free will when you go to a four screen art house or a 10 screen art house, or when you load up a streaming service and you think, I'm making a choice, you're not making any more of a choice than you are if somebody says, what do you want? A green apple or a red apple? And you think, wow, this is so nice to give me options.
And it's like, it would never occur to people to say, it doesn't really feel like I have too many choices here. And this is the same thing. I mean, you know, the way the movies are exhibited to believe that this is based on merit. Of course, you know, you discuss often things like that.
We know that that's not true. It's based on advertising dollars and how much money has been invested in this and this applies to ten polls and festival acquisitions. And that from the minute those things are birthed, that basically decides the rest of their life. And something remains visible because it carries with it the aura of respectability or success or popularity.
This is why some of the only movies you ever see on Netflix that are not Netflix movies that are recent are all A24 movies, because those just from the minute they're released with the correct marketing seem like relevant films, whether they make $1 million or $10 million, then they're on Netflix. So they must be important. And then they're on Netflix. So people watch them and then people watch them.
So Netflix pays money to keep them there. And then it's just like, that must be one of the most important movies. Because when I load up Netflix, it's like Rain Man dances with wolves, which is another one that we watched. And then like Lee Burton moonlight.
So these must be like as much of the greatest movies of all time as these things I've been hearing about from before I was born. And if you think that that is called having free will, you're completely mistaken. And that's why, you know, the agency of as you discuss like having five streaming options and theatrical options. And in the past, human interaction to sort of shape these things from you for you is like clearly what it takes to build your own understanding of things.
Because if you're just relying on what you're fed, then you only get what the lunch lady serves you, not what you want. Have you longed to have one of your films with one of those distributors so that your film could seem more important than maybe it otherwise would be as if it had a kind of numerical grade or financial grade attached to it? That's all anybody wants. It's not because the people who run any one company or another have like a magic wand.
It's just this sort of mass deception that logos that are applied to a movie after it's been finished and premiered are instrumental in defining its quality or its value. And you know, I mean, we grew up like, I mean, you know, when you were younger, you knew what an Orion film meant because that meant something fun like Robocop and later you knew what a cannon film meant. And later later, you knew or maybe in the middle, you knew what a Miramax film meant. And those things do have meaning.
It's not that these are fake. These are not fake symbols because they have real meaning, but the meaning is manufactured in a way that is much more overt than it ever was before, which is why it's interesting that like streaming services have done everything they can to decentralize their own identity to the extent that an Netflix logo means absolutely nothing because it could be one of a thousand things. Do you feel like fan culture has the quote unquote power to change some of that because we're obviously in a moment now where, you know, people can loudly demand things and sometimes they get them like the Snyder cut. And that didn't seem to be necessarily operating in exactly the same way.
And this, like, legitimately, I think affects what movies are made and how they're made. Obviously, the mother and the whore is not going to hit Netflix because 500,000 people on Twitter demanded. Although if you want to get that campaign going right now, we can certainly try. I mean, I have gotten too deep into it with every distributor about like what can be done about this and the French distributor that I've worked with on at least four or five releases of my movies.
They said they came closer than anybody to getting the complete U slash catalog from his son and then it all fell apart. And I said, you think it'll ever happen. You just went through this for two years. And they said, no, I don't think these movies, I don't think his estate will ever come to terms that are agreeable.
And I believe these movies will remain, you know, unrestored on DVD, on Blu-rayed on streaming on 2K. Like they really were like, I just don't think it's going to happen based on what we just went through. What about for what like, let's say that some of the movies we're going to talk about here today. We both made some lists.
We're going to talk about some films that have either fallen out of fashion or maybe never in fashion if you're misunderstood. I think I've been using the phrase lost classic, which is not is inadequate. I think for the kind of conversation that we're having, but I'm trying to find a way to describe these very particular kinds of films. They use stage films.
That's a little different. I think those are films that are widely understood to a certain audience that has been exposed to them to have a meaningful reputation and to be these kind of objects of adoration when people are exposed to them. But like what we're talking about is like a little bit different. You know, there's that feeling of like slipping through your fingers with some of these things.
It's not a rare object. It's something that was once not necessarily mainstream, but accessible and now is vanished. How do you think about those things? At one point emailed you when we were trying to come up with what to talk about a phrase that, again, in my younger and more vulnerable years of repertory three movies a day sometimes film going, the phrase we would use was the one to see, which I mentioned to you, which meant if this is fluid, but that meant if today there was a if Alamo Draft House was doing an all 35 millimeter James Cameron series based on what you just said, true lies is the one to see.
Because the Terminator movies pop up often. Maybe you don't care about revisiting Avatar, whatever the abyss, who knows what version they're playing. But then there's this one that was never changed. There's only one version of it.
It's on, you know, that's the one to see. And for us, this always kind of even in a new series of films that never popped up still numero zero, the documentary about his grandma was the one to see because that was the one that really never popped up. And in any series, there would be the one to see the one that sort of is revived the lease, the movie that would only appear in a complete retrospective. If you're doing, you know, Cameron classics for four days, you're not going to get the true lies.
If you're doing, and some of the directors will talk about, you know, if you're doing an abbreviated series, this is the move. This is one of you draw a line somewhere and this is underneath it always. The only way these movies would ever pop up is if it is a complete retrospective of everything. And therefore, you can say, you know, that's kind of the one to see because it never screens nobody cares about it.
It's rare because it's bad or it's bad because it's where it's seen as bad because it's rare. We don't really know used to be on tape. I never got around to it because it doesn't matter. This is not something I'll talk about.
But like, you know, when Metro graph open, one of their first series was complete diploma. And I finally saw get to know your rabbit, which was never rare. I had just never bothered to watch it. But for me, that was like, this is the one to see because this will never screen again.
There's no reason this will ever play outside of a leave nothing out of the palm of series. And, you know, all I can say about it is I cross it off my list and I had one really great overhead shot. It kind of moves above a building. The kind of thing, Tarantino later started doing a lot of and diploma did more of.
But as far as I remember, it's the first time diploma did, like the thing where you lift up over the set and you move from rooms. And I was like, okay, it's got one great shot. I think it was the first time you had any money, which is probably why he was able to experiment a little bit until time. That's not exactly.
I think that's a really good description of what we're doing here. And so to me, in terms of excavating and figuring out who fits the bill here, you know, most of the directors that I thought of were filmmakers who have long careers who made a number of decades and who have frankly, like so many good films that it's easy to forget some of the mediocre ones. And then they develop into having that reputation. You described as bad.
You know, it's like, well, this movie, nobody's really seen thought about much talked about much. It wasn't reviled. It was just forgotten and ignored. Is that more or less?
Yeah, it is. But also, you know, the other thing to bring in my own experience of what you were saying, like to kind of go back into the fallacy that people just in the marketplace are sold about how movies are released. I remember when her smell came out, you know, the actors are promoting on social media and Cardellovine was posting something about it a couple times. You know, she did several posts.
This movie, here's a clip here. And every time some of the top comments were, you know, the movie, we had a four week exclusive theatrical release, which at the time, people were like, I know this is kind of weird. It's neither here nor there. But I think someday more movies will do this.
And now it's essentially the norm. And every single time somebody said this movie wasn't even really released. It must be bad. Or, you know, this didn't even play in theaters.
So obviously it's bad. And that perception is still there. And in the way that if you just said, you know what, we're going to sink a lot of money into this and do a 700 screen wide release and see if people click with it and then go wider, then people wouldn't be able to make that criticism of something. And there is still exactly what you're saying, this perception that, oh, well, X factor TBD.
So therefore, it must be bad. This has never been on Blu-ray. So it must not be worth it. This has never been streaming.
So it must be bad. This was never put onto DVD. So it must not have deserved that. As though these are such wonderful lofty accomplishments that only the deserving films received them.
I don't know how to explain that though, that my lizard brain, if I can't find something on Blu-ray, it's a paradox for me. Because on the one hand, I'm like, well, this must not be important. And then on the other hand, I'm like, the fact that I can only get a version of it on DVD that was printed in Korea in 1999 actually makes it seem sexier. So that always makes me go, yeah, that makes me sick.
Well, this must be special. It must be something about this. It must be like too hot for the marketplace that if they put possession or out of the Blu-ray, that would be bad for American children to have access to those films. So that must be why those movies, despite being like two of the most undeniable classics, to the point that I feel ridiculous, even citing these as important films, because that's like saying, you know, the Godfather is important to something.
It's like, yeah, possession is canonically one of the greatest films ever made. And then other people would go, oh, yeah, I've never been able to track that down. I guess it's good, says somebody instead of like, yeah, it's just clearly like, it's just too hot. You can't put that movie on Blu-ray.
It would destroy people. You have to leave it at the cinema. Let me give you a counterpoint to that though. Take them.
I don't know how you feel about this movie, but take them and be like she hate me. So that's a movie that's not available on Blu-ray. It's widely considered one of Spike's least affected movies and kind of a down moment for him as a filmmaker. Is the fact that it's not available there enticing to you?
Does it make you reevaluate what you thought of that movie originally? I've never seen it. So in this case, yes. Only because, I mean, now I couldn't tell you why I didn't see it, but two years ago, my wife said she'd never seen Bamboozled and I was like, well, that's easily top three.
That's that do the right thing and then fill in the Malcolm X maybe, but like, you can't deny that this is one of the best. And at the time, it wasn't streaming, which I learned was because Criterion was obviously doing a new edition of it. So we got in the mail from Netflix, the DVD of it, which looked pretty, you know, pretty gnarly, especially for a movie shot on consumer video. But, you know, that was just like, well, this was just perceived as a bomb and I'm sure that because of the way it was shot, they can't easily do it.
And then of course, the reason was they're doing it. But, yeah, I mean, to me, I would never be like, yeah, it's probably fine that a film at all by a major filmmaker is just not a bit like, I would never be like, yeah, we don't need she hate me. It's like, you either need everything or you can survive with nothing. And like, it just, yeah, that's a compelling, totally oddball example that I never would have thought of.
Nor would I ever think to look up is that movie available because I just assume that it is. And now it's just like, you know, that's the exact kind of movie that is not. I mean, the other thing is that a lot of movie, you know, beyond studio, studio movies and certainly European films and I have quite a few of those on my list. You know, like, there's just companies don't exist anymore.
Like, I don't know movies from 2005. Like, oh, she hate me was released by like a new market or like a palm picture. And so there's like any of these companies that it's just like, what happened to their assets? Like, they don't exist.
And now they're, I mean, the company that released was not filled up doesn't exist anymore. And we were trying to figure out how to put the movie on Blu-ray. And it's just like this whole thing of like, there are people in charge of these things, but like, this is how things disappear. So if you think that it's not on Blu-ray because it didn't sell for $10 million at Sundance and didn't get released in more than 70 screens, you're right, but you're also wrong because it's not on Blu-ray for a very didactic reason, the company that released it didn't have the money to do that because they were nickel and dime and now they're gone.
If they had released, let's not fill up on Blu-ray. Would they have had enough money to stay in business? Are you saying that I should potentially try to purchase this company? Should I try to find all their assets?
If you, if you were so inclined, I imagine you could probably do that. I'm not so sure about that. You pointed out two movies to me when we first were having this email exchange. I think one was the life of Quadak with Steve Zisu and one was deathproof.
And you were saying like, you know, these are movies that are not necessarily the most acclaimed in the UVA of the filmmaker, but they, in a, in a, in a maybe more conventional way, do still kind of fit the one to see, they may eventually become the one to see, you know, they may become the one over time. When we look at the arc of the filmmaker's career, when I first, when I first went, I was like, I want you to know that I think deathproof is fucking incredible. And I still feel that way. And I think maybe I'm also just attracted to these movies that quickly gained the reputation of like, this one isn't as great as the classics.
Were you thinking about it in the same way? Kind of. Yeah. I mean, I think your email yesterday when we were finalizing these plans sort of through a small wrench, but I was able to kind of split into what I was initially thinking.
And then what I think you were looking for. But, you know, picturing, I mean, the main page used to do this like in the late nineties, early 2000s. And you're like, here's a director's complete filmography, which movie is your favorite. Right.
And you picture that and you picture whichever one has 3% of the vote. And you're like, what 3% of people look at the Tarrant you know, from a group is number one. What, you know, like there's not a wrong answer. It's not like that's just so insane.
But it's more like, yeah, I'm interested in the mentality of someone who's like, yeah, I mean, I love all fiction and Jackie Brown, but like that proof is the one for me. And it's just like, okay, that's interesting. So I like the ones that sort of would seem like they're some. It's just, it's likely that they would be but a sliver of that pie chart.
And that is just a visual way of thinking about the basically all of the ones that I have come up with here. But by no means like the only criteria I was thinking of because some of these, I, you know, probably wouldn't be that necessarily. But only because some of these are from filmmakers with 50 movies. So why don't you kick us off?
What's the first thing you want to talk about? So should I go from the oldest to the newest? Yeah, I should do that way. All right.
So the first thing is I keep it. So I have two categories. One is what you said, which is like this movie kind of has a dodgy reputation. Maybe it's actually worthwhile.
And the other one is movies that I think like mother in the horror are just basically not in the conversation are completely obscure because they're not available. So those that's kind of like a side thing. I can just list those because that's kind of not what we're focusing on. But the first thing, 1958, Nicholas Raised, Wind Across the Everglades.
And I'm hoping that a lot of the I'm hoping that at least three of these you'll go. I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that because that's what you want from these movies. And you know, Wind Across the Everglades is not not the greatest movie.
It's, you know, I wouldn't even say it's one of the 10 greatest Nicholas Ra films. But again, that's a pretty lofty thing to claim that you could even crack that that list of his masterpieces. But it's written by Bud Schulberg, who's a famous screenwriter and a famous novelist, Sars Christopher Plummer, who is now regarded as one of the finest actors of the second half of the 20th century. And it is this sort of slow, somewhat dull, but kind of beautifully shot Florida location movie about conservationists and bird watching.
And I think there's a character in it that carries a raccoon the entire movie. And it's just this sort of odd what's it kind of, you know, not terribly late in the Nick Ray filmography, but, you know, towards the back third of his film certainly. That is, you know, like a lot of these four completists only not available. As far as I could tell, perhaps it was a tape, certainly no DVD, no Blu-ray, no streaming on this one.
And I saw it in the film forum Nick Ray series in like 2006, probably. And everyone was like, don't miss Wind Across the Everglades because that one's never going to pop up again. And sure enough, as far as I know it never has. I've never seen it.
I don't even know where I would say it. Maybe it would run on TCM or something from time. I feel like a couple years ago, I might have seen like Richard Brody pointing out that it was popping up on TCM. I mean, that's where it would turn up now.
And it would just be like, this is on at 2.30 in the morning for some reason, set your recorder because this is, I mean, again, all these things are probably on torrents, but like, who understands or has time for that? He's a really interesting example of what you're talking about too, because he's someone who, you know, in pretty short order after he kind of moved out of fashion, out of work, he had hits, you know, he had a rebel that would cause and things like that in a lonely place. This is like 55. So I'm like not that far removed from like, but exactly where he wants to be.
But he also had, I feel like a second life where Johnny Guitar and Bigger Than Life gained a kind of like more mainstream for lack of a better word appreciation. And there still are all of these films that he made. This is a Warner Brothers film. Yeah.
And this is, as I predicted, the last film on the second line of his Wikipedia, you know, Portal. But it is kind of, I mean, there's nothing after this that I think is, you know, a major film. Right. That's a bigger victory right before this is probably his last major film.
But even that's another masterpiece. I mean, that was like one of the, that's like a movie that broke O'Dard's brain in half that like he talks about seeing like every day for a month in the theatre or something. Like, so he's in a great period in his career. But yeah, at this point, his movies have not entered the canon beyond, I would say, bigger than life, which is 56.
So that's a great pick. My picks will invariably be more conventional than yours. Maybe, I mean, you know, a couple of these are just, you know, Hollywood movies. So one Hollywood movie that's kind of an interesting movie in the career of a very famous 70s filmmaker is Health.
Sure. Robert Altman movie from 1980. Yeah. That was the one to see at the Altman series at the moment.
I caught it there. I think it remains the one to see. You know, Popeye usually has the reputation of being the movie that kind of sunk him for good given the expenditures on that production and the challenging nature of that film. But you know, that was a Paramount movie and it's got all that lore because of Robert Evans and everything that was going on there.
So this is the last movie that he made with Fox after making a string of really interesting movies, some of which are great, some of which don't work that well, starting with three women. And health is like a parody and a satire of frankly something that would become pretty dominant in our culture. This kind of like self care, health care culture. The movie is pretty funny, not very funny.
It's certainly not also in the top 10 Robert Altman movies. But it's a movie that I don't know if you don't go to a retrospective. I don't know how you see this movie. Yeah.
I mean, the video store I worked in had a tape of it that may have been a bootleg, but I think was, you know, I'm sure it was really some tape. But I feel like now this movie is just more famous for Ronald Reagan calling it the world's worst movie. Right. That's exactly right.
But yeah, I mean, I remember when, you know, 2014 or so, I mean, this turned up when I was scrolling through here and I feel like I saw that movie. 13, I was at 15. I feel like when I saw that on my list, I was like, it's crazy that I saw that movie like New Year's Eve, I think. That's a brolicking.
No, guys. I saw it on December 21, 2014, a moment on a double feature with a wedding. Oh, that's, which is like, you know, it's like a Kerst double feature. That's like, that's like, you know, not if you're a Paul Doolie head.
It's a great. I mean, that's just like a buried Altman double feature, but yeah, health is perfectly valid. And again, like, I prefer it to Popeye. I remember watching it and being like, it's not bad.
Like in the context of a series where I was in the groove of these films, I was like, this one, this is just right. I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong about the tone of this movie. Like in the way that there is with Popeye, especially if you're coming to it for an Altman film. And yeah, this I just remember being like, yeah, this was fine.
I mean, thought it was going to be a train wreck. It's like maybe like a two and a half or three star movie and now I can move on. It's interesting what happens to him, you know, shortly after this and Popeye, you know, he basically goes into this like visible obscurity, making TV movies. So it's an interesting artifact.
I think of like the end of a fruitful relationship with a filmmaker. What else you got? I mean, another one just real quick before we move on is like, first from the cloud was not available until like three years ago. And that's a movie that unlike this was a lot of people's favorite Altman.
And again, when that would screen, it would be like, you have to go see it because you're not going to get it any other way. And yeah, it's just weird that he could have a film from that miracle run that became so invisible. And that was completely accessible. But anyway, that was one more.
It was even more egregious though, because it was between Mash and McCabe. So it was like, there's this mystery item that somehow is invisible if you want to rent a DVD. Anyhow, continue. Next one, I have 1963 John Ford's Donovan's Reef.
Oh, yeah, sure. I've seen this. So I saw it on three more slots to hit one. And I suspect that was my last case that I thought.
But you know, I saw that in like a John Wayne centennial series at Moment. And it has like the old John Wayne collection DVD where every DVD, no matter how much he's in the movie, was 90% his face and then a couple other pieces of clipart. I don't think it was ever in any of the like nice Warner Brothers or Fox equivalent John Ford box sets. And it was, you know, the only non-unjustputable masterpiece in the John Wayne.
There was like six or eight movies. It was the big trail. The searchers. Exactly what you would want.
And then this one. And I was like, I don't know if it's reefing, you go watch it. And it's just like, what if there was a movie where John Wayne and Lee Marvin just like hung out in the tropics and ran like a pub or like a sort of like, speak easy on the beach and got drunk and got into fist fights. And then like looking enough today, I was like, I guess there's like a whole plot of this movie.
I remember this movie being like borderline meditatively plotless. And it's just again, like what I mean, you know, you couldn't name five more significant 20th century director actor collaborations in John Ford John Wayne. And here's one of them that is for all intents and purposes inaccessible right now. That is a great pick.
And truly a word on the poster. There's not one, but two illustrations of John Wayne throwing a punch. Yeah, I mean, they're just like friends and they work together and they hate each other and I think they served together. And now they just kind of like get drunk and get into fights and go on adventures and get into fights.
And it's like, it just kind of seems like a movie that would be like a thing on the Simpsons or the critic, I guess more specifically. But I remember thinking it was like kind of the discovery of that series, which I just had no expectations of and was pretty shocked to find out that it's still kind of just not accessible and therefore just kind of a curio in the late John Ford. Filmography. Okay, here's one for you that I know you're going to have some familiarity with.
Frankly, I want to hear you talk about a little bit more. This film is available on Blu-ray, but I don't think very many people know it. It's called Patty Hearst. So Paul Schrader movie from 1988.
It's a kind of a biopic docu-drama about Patty Hearst's abduction and then I guess infiltration inside the Sydney's liberation army. And you know, it's from one of our great American filmmakers, a filmmaker who you made a documentary about. And I feel like it's, is it the least discussed of all the Schrader films you think? No, I mean, there's touch the online movie, which is borderline unwatchable.
And I mean, sure, he's got a couple scraping the bottom there. I mean, there's like the major TV ones. I don't want to look. I just want to see if I can think of any others that would be that it would be lower than touch.
I mean, I feel like nobody remembers that the Walker is a movie. Yeah. But that's the thing. I mean, all of his movies, I think the one exception of touch when I ended up seeing them, I was like, this is a very valid and serious and worthwhile film.
But the exact, and Patty Hearst was on DVD. I remember the DVD. I never saw it. And then two years ago, I was a guest at the Harvard Film Archive.
And I was showing all of my movies and speaking in a bunch of classes at Harvard. And they sent me the list of their complete archive. And they said, you know, while you're here, do, we'll show four-year movies and we'll do, you pick four films from our entire archive. And one of the things in the archive was a pristine release print of Patty Hearst.
And I said, you know, this is when I was working on the documentary. And I said, you know, this is one of like two straight-year movies I've still not seen. Let's watch it. And I'll just watch it for the first time on this print.
And I was so excited by it because it's so mysterious and evocative. And the first third of it basically takes place in a black box. In darkness. Yes.
Let's see. A print of it was really exciting. And then I guess the other was like a Twilight time Blu-Ray. And then it was on Criterion when my documentary went up.
So maybe I can claim a bit of credit for that movie not being purely invisible. But I think it was like made, it's one of those movies that was made by like a Japanese electronics company. Like I think it's literally, whatever it is, I'll look up. I mean, it literally might as well start by saying like a Magnavox production.
This is an interesting example of both of those cases you just gave. One, it was made available on Criterion channel for a period of time. And then it was removed again. And two, it was produced by Twilight time in this really nice edition on Blu-Ray.
That's the Blu-Ray that you're referring to. That's the Blu-Ray I'm referring to. But Twilight time ceased production last year. They're now defunct.
So there's only this limited edition number of Blu-rays. So now this movie that it seemed like had been saved from obscurity is now probably going back into obscurity in a strange way. That's on IMDB that it is on to be on to be on to be on the small around the subject. I mean, I guess that's the thing you have to check now when you want to say something bold like track.
This is a Zenith entertainment film. Incredible. So like, you know, why were they producing biopics about the Patty Hearst kidnapping? Probably because they thought it would play on tape.
I don't know. I mean, like I feel like mystery train or one of the early drummers movies is a JVC film. And it's just like that's a VCR company. Why are they like, but, but yeah, I mean, you know, but that's the thing.
Like once something kind of slips in to disc or slips into streaming, it can never fully go away. And, you know, criterion channel, we see this like a movie expires and it comes back six months later. Right. Right.
So. You know, I was patty hers. What's on? Yeah.
I feel like I feel like I thought I thought I thought in the theater and then my wife had never seen it. She wasn't there with me that weekend and then when it appeared on the channel with my documentary, I said, watch it again. And she said, you saw this like three months ago. Yeah, but it's really good.
And she had just listened to an audio book about Patty Hearst. It was very compelling, but a worthy film. Okay. What do you got next?
1971 is the touch by Ingmar Bergman. Never seen it. Which again, like I wouldn't have included this until we started going in a slightly different direction because this also is just on the criterion channel, which previously was unthinkable. This movie had caused Elliott Gold to have a nervous breakdown and somehow, despite that, because of it, he purchased the rights to it.