Every generation thinks that they've got it worse than the one before them, and this generation is no different. But this generation really might be in a rough spot. I've got a growing thesis on what I think is happening, especially to men. I think masculinity as a brand is probably the right way to think about it, is in crisis and that's having a huge knock on effect for young men.
I've been thinking a lot about this topic, and today I'm joined by Justin Waller. One of the people young men today are flocking to for a vision of what it means to be a man. Justin is an experienced entrepreneur who built the steel building construction company from scratch and is also becoming a lightning rod, online personality known for often controversial takes on modern masculinity. We certainly did not see eye to eye on everything, but I found Justin to be sincere in his desire to help people, and I really enjoyed my conversation with him.
We didn't always agree on what path leads to a truly evolved man, but that's part of what keeps these talks interesting. I'll be really interested to see what you guys think about this episode in general, and specifically this topic, and if you agree with me that there really is something going on in culture now that needs to be lovingly nudged in a new direction. And speaking of new directions, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the ad-free feed of Impact Theory on Apple Podcasts. You'll even get access to curated playlists and additional bonus content you won't find anywhere else.
Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts. This is Tom Billio, and now I bring you. What do you think is involved? I think social media is a big part of it.
What is it about social media? So I think in a lot of ways, if you look to any man that wants to have a good life, he needs to be appreciated. And so, for example, I have a lot of guys that work for me and still company. One thing that I'm constantly challenged with is that guy, even though he's great at what he does, even though he's building America, even though he's doing things that makes the world go round, nobody appreciates him for it because when he goes on Facebook or Instagram, he sees a 21-year-old that caught a crypto pump or a dead Amazon drop shipping, driving a Lambo and a buy.
And I think that's a really big problem for me. What causes that problem? That feels more to me like it is a consequence of something that we need to establish is what should a man derive his worth from? Money, women, cars.
That's not going to do it for you ever, ever, ever. It's going to be you meeting the expectation you have for yourself and the man. So you envision this man that you're going to become. I think most people do that from early age.
They see something they want an avatar or something they want to do and they want to go become that person. And I believe the formula for happiness and fulfillment is the gap between your expectation of who you become and your reality. And so a lot of guys are not meeting that expectation for themselves. And I think it's harder and harder to do that, particularly in a world where we've gone off the gold standard, a man can't just have a job and support a family and be the man of the house anymore.
And I think that's one of the biggest issues with families now. I want to make sure that we're careful to piece together exactly the argument here. So when I say that we have societal decay and it's tied to masculinity, is that are we in agreement with that? 100%.
Okay. So then as we begin to tease apart, what does that mean? The first thing you went to was men or they're not being appreciated. Social media sort of blasts that out.
You see all these images, not of hardworking, blue collar, I'm putting that word in your mouth, but sort of hands in the dirt, doing something hard. That's no longer being celebrated. Instead, it's the crypto pump, whatever that and I say this a lot is that a woman can put her ass on Instagram and make more money than the man that built a road to where we're going. I think that's a big issue with society.
And I think that's men's fault. I think this whole thing is actually the fault of weak men. Okay. So why is putting your ass on Instagram a problem?
Because in a lot of ways, how is a man ever going to be able to be with a woman that is showing herself all over the internet and still garner her respect if he doesn't shut it down? Okay. Let's really answer that question. So garnering her respect does not feel like there would be any problem if your girl is, I'm assuming we're talking only fans here.
So you're going to ask an only fans account. Putting her ass out there, she has been given a gift from God or she's working on it and she's in incredible shape and men are responding. In any cases, she's going to make more money than the average guy. Which is fine.
What I don't understand is, well, not true. I'll argue that it's not fine for their dynamic probably. Okay. So the base assumption that I hear you say is that their dynamic will not be successful and will need to find success in a second.
But their dynamic will not be successful. She will not be able to, she won't be able to respect him. Is that where you're going? Because she earns more money.
Yeah. I think in most cases when the woman makes more than the man, then there's a bit of an issue. Okay. And you see quite a bit.
I don't think that's a crazy statement. It's interesting. I don't think it's a crazy statement, but there's a follow on statement which is, but what's the alternative? Because I live by motto.
Never asks someone to slow down so that you can lead. I agree. I agree with that completely. And here's another thing.
I don't judge those women only fans. I think in the past, I might have put a light out there that I do. Actually, I don't. Because in my opinion, there's not enough strong men out there that could lead a woman for all of the women that probably make money on only fans to find somebody they can look up to.
I do think that's very important in relationship dynamic that the woman does look up to the man in some way. I do think that's very important. I think that's very primal as well. It's important that men look up to the women in some way.
I think it's important that they love and respect them. But not, there's a clear distinction for you between. There's a clear distinction who the leader is. Respect equals love, right?
I'll take that in that you believe that. I do believe that. I'd love for you to challenge it. I don't know.
If you're a woman, doesn't respect you, she doesn't love you. I don't think I love, certainly I don't love everyone romantically that I respect. No, of course not. That's not what I'm saying.
Respect equals love in the sense that if a woman can't respect you, she's probably not going to love you. And as she starts and in many situations when a woman goes to leave, she has lost respect for that man in some way. I do believe that. What do you think is the whole cocktail?
Yeah. What do you think is a cohesion that keeps a man and woman together? We're now really jumping to right where I think my disconnect is with the... God.
Red pill is what people are going to apply to you. You seem to side-step that. What word would you put on your stance if you had to put it under an umbrella? I believe the more strong men we build in this world, the better for men and as a result, the better for women.
Okay. So we'll call that instead of calling it red pill. Or whatever. Yeah.
Call it whatever you want. It's just men have to understand their life is going to be difficult. They're going to have to fight their ass off to get in a position to be able to find a partner that looks up to them, respects them, they can lead a family and feel fulfillment and be in the leader of that family. I think that's very natural for every man who wants to be the leader of the household.
Yes. Okay. This is a very complicated issue. Let's take things one at a time.
So my bundle of things that I think make for a long-term relationship, and this is the one thing where I'll say as we distill these down, I think this is the place where we're going to see where we don't agree. Cool. Let's do it. So I think that nature from an evolutionary standpoint has ensured that you are half of a life, all of the success emotionally and in the tangible world of staying safe, being fed, all of that, procreating that you need to come together as a unit.
And so now the question becomes what is the ideal unit and what is going to make sure that that unit stays safe and strong. So when I look at that, there is a neurological component to parabonding. So Dr. Ayman has done research on this fascinating guy.
People don't know who he is. Look him up. He's a neuroscientist that's in more brain scanning. I think than anybody else.
He's been doing this for 20 plus years. Right. So he's a person oxytocin. And he was saying, I won't let someone date my daughter until I scan their brain and I see how receptive they are to those two compounds because they're the compounds that predict parabonding.
And I thought, ooh, that's really interesting. And I think is a key reason why. So I've been married for 21 years and why I think our marriage has been so successful. And she got with me when I was broke.
It's hilarious that people, like she has my wife being... Of course I do, bro. People on the internet, bro. So she finds it funny and I find it hilarious.
So part of our reason, I think I'm a super responder. So for me, I really get something out of parabonding. So when my wife and I got together, and by the way, she's the only woman I ever told I loved, not the only woman I've slept with, but the only woman I ever told I loved. So for me, it was like one shot, one kill.
And you know exactly what I was looking for. When I found it, I was like, look it up. So, and then the rest was, okay, do I know how to navigate this so that it gives me enough to be worth the sacrifice. But again, I'm coming at this from an evolutionary perspective of what is most likely to allow us to come together to be safe in an ancestral environment where we're getting attacked left right and center, where our kids are hyper-likely to die.
This is all really a dangerous endeavor. And so coming together and saying, are we making each other better? Am I a better version of myself with her? Then I would be without her.
Is she a better version of herself with me than without me? And does she make me her number one? And this is where I think... Yeah, where we might see a schism between how we look at this.
So I would never give up sex with other women if I didn't become my wife's number one and feel like the coolest person in the world has picked me to be like, yo, if you ever slip, I've got you. You ever need to be pushed, I've got you. You never need help, I laugh, whatever. Somebody to see you celebrate you, cheer you on, whatever.
Like I got you. That is the only thing that I have ever found that makes the other sacrifices, which is not just sex, but that's a big one, especially for guys, has made that worth it. Can I ask you a question on that I got you think, please? The support, the cheering you on.
That's awesome stuff, right? What about when you're down? Do you call your wife or do you call your guy friends? My wife, 100%.
Yeah. Do you feel like you have a brotherhood where you could call people outside of your wife? Yes, but I understand the position. It's not a disney.
It's a genuine question. Whatever is true is true. I have no beef whatsoever. No.
I would say that is outside. I have had that. So my previous business was with two other guys and it was always very clear to me that the brotherhood was far more important than the money and all that. So I know what it is and I love it.
That to me is a very important part of what I think is broken. I think that men are not being held to an exacting standard. I think that's a big part of the problem. You're can you expand on an exacting standard?
I can, but I don't want to deviate too much from you. So that's my roughness of things where a relationship can be worth all the sacrifice you will make for it and turn you into something better than you would be on your own. But the price it demands is that you be the other person's number one and you make them your number one. What is your basket of goods that you think make that relationship worthwhile or not?
Well, actually everything you just said I'm completely in line with now. I wouldn't take my problems listening to my wife because I believe there's a really important part of the male and female dynamic where you get to be the hero. You get to be the one saving the day. You get to be the one solving all the problems, especially in the world for the men that are very feminized, not to say that you are, but I believe that men are more feminized now than they've ever been.
And in the counter opposite direction with the female, like let's say feminism, women are going in the direction of more masculinity men or being more feminine and women are like wear them in and it's been my experience for women. I've either dated or seen or even even at home. Hey, listen, I really like the fact that you take the lead. You take the mask and roll and allow me to be feminine.
In fact, I would even go as far as to say is that the smartest, strongest young women today are the ones that actually are okay with hearing the noise from the world and choose to be feminine, like and enjoy it. Maybe one of the common mother, which is something that's growing more and more unpopular or getting pushed back against an unrealistic time frame that they have. So I do like the idea of being the hero and not bringing problems home or to someone that have to worry because I'm supposed to be the one solving those problems. This said, as a father or as somebody that's putting information on the internet, all I want to do is a few things.
I want to educate people on or my children, let's just say my children on how the world works. Give them the tools it takes to navigate through that world and put themselves in a position where they have choice. Outside of that, I don't want anything for anyone else what choice. And that's from, you know, guests that you've had on, let's say, let's say, uh, Destiny, you had Destiny on, right?
I got no issue with that guy. If that guy's happy and he's truly a piece with himself, even if he hated me, bro, I got nothing but love for him because all I want to see people have in their life is choice and happiness. And only you can decide that. So I think there's a way to make that happen.
You obviously think there's a way to make that happen. Destiny thinks there's a way there's a way to make that happen. I'm a little certain that those three ways are all completely, well, not completely different, in some regards, but I don't think that's what solves for correct. I think what solves correct is if you're happy and you're fulfilled in that relationship.
That's it. Do you think that there is anything preordained about what's going to make people happy and fulfilled? Yeah, I think appreciation for a man is one thing. I think men want to be appreciated.
I really do. I think it's their job to go earn that appreciation. And I think women want to feel protected and loved and cared for fully. And they want to know that they have a position with that man where he is going to take care of them forever.
Or he is going to put all of his efforts in to take care and he gets fulfillment from it. I get a lot of fulfillment from taking care of my family. I love it. I'm glad you said that.
So when they become 14, if they hear the wrong tweet or they want to start coming at me with the heat, I'll quickly remind them who pays the fucking bills. I'm not going to I'm not going to send for them. It's just not that time. Right now, when I love them, I want to know they have a father at home.
I want them. They see me a lot. I was just telling you before the show, I imagine that I spent more hours with my kids than the average man because I'll come home for a week at a time, two weeks at a time and stay with them all day. I see them quite a bit.
I very much enjoy it. And when the time comes, you know, the teenage years, if they want to get fresh from me, they'll quickly find out that I can't complain. That's it. In fact, I kind of look forward to kind of setting that frame with them.
I think it's going to be important. Okay. I want to talk about that. So even your energy changes when you talk about that, like you imagine them 14 come with the heat, your energy changed.
So that moment, I think it's a very important moment. I think it's also very misunderstood and can create can create problems for sure in a marriage could potentially create problems with kids, whatever. So why is that? I'm sorry, which thing?
The change in energy. So I'll give you an example. My path was going from weak to strong and I got into business and I was weak. And through the crucible of a brotherhood and the free market, I had to get hard.
Now, I spent a lot of years in a very intense, I'll be generous, a very intense environment. And it was exactly what I needed and it hardened me and made me far more capable than I ever was before. And I would never take it back. But as soon as I then branched out and started a company on my own, I was like, okay, I'm not doing that because it breaks almost everyone that it touches.
And I used to think about it like the inner city and the inner city breaks the vast majority of people that it touches, but you get a few people that have to get so tough to overcome that that they overshoot and they do just unbelievably amazing things. But the vast majority of people get destroyed by it. I feel that way by construction. I can imagine.
I really do. Yeah. So getting tough, very important. I'm sure we will explore that more.
However, in the tougher I got, the harder it was for my wife. And the only way she knew how to articulate the problem was I want my husband back. And that was very disorienting for me because I was proud of who I'd become. But she now I ultimately figure out what she was trying to communicate and I'll explain it in a second.
But that was very weird. The more proud I became of myself, the harder time she had in our marriage. And I was like, well, that's weird. And so she just kept saying I want my husband back.
I want my husband back. I want my husband back. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like I am your husband.
This is me. So you say you want something other than who I have become. So anyway, I finally realized what she's looking for is for me to broadcast and receive love. Meaning I can use your language.
I can hold a frame. But I don't have to be I don't have to shift into an aggressive mode. Now I do and it feels good and I love it. But ultimately communication isn't what you intend.
It's what's heard. And so also how you make people feel. Yeah. So how do you navigate that moment where you go from because the the.
Yeah, maybe I gave you the wrong impression. I think when I talk about my girls, I get a little fired up, you know, it means something that means so that I think this this thing is that the transition of energy is exactly what makes you uniquely interesting, right? You're part of the for people that don't know you're part of the androids a small group of people. But you have a very different vibe.
But if you think of that sort of energy as a spectrum and you've got to at least publicly is only ever on aggression in your face. I want to be a sensational inflammatory, seemingly possible and guilty or innocent. Like he he creates a frame that is not surprising at all that he brings a lot of animosity in his direction. You are able to move between there are times where I'm going to be intense and there are times where I'm going to be jovial and sweet and a gentleman.
You've got a whole thing. Yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about it about what being a gentleman means and all that. But that moment of shifting your energy, I want to better understand what what that means. Why like when you think about your daughters coming to you at 14.
Do you really want to bring the smoke or is it like? I think I might have shown you energy from passion anytime I get past you'd ask me a business question and I'd have been talking about my guys. I was saying thing but I wouldn't handle the situation any different with my we're not much different with my daughter than I would an employee. I'd move and he's able out of the way I sit with her or him need any and say, Hey, listen, I see this this and this and here's where I think that this is going to either hurt you or hinder your situation.
Here's why I love you with all my heart. I'm not a yellow. I don't yell at my people. I certainly won't yell at my children would never yell at a woman.
So what I'm saying is that yes, I'll get fired up on the subject, but if it came down to me and you talking about something that was really, really critical or me and my daughter or me and an employee or me and Andrew, I would be very much just present in that moment with them because I feel like if you start yelling at someone, they can no longer hear you. And so one thing I like to do is like just sit there, need a knee and be in their space and just be present in the moment and just tell them how I'm feeling. I won't get much higher than this. In fact, I'll probably be a little lower than this.
I don't think people can hear you when you yell at them or when you get overly aggressive. So I might have made that mistake earlier in my 20s, but generally now I'm not raising my voice. No, not at all. What's the role of aggression?
And I asked that in the context of I really want to know what is young men listening to this. They need a target to aim at. They need to know what the ideal man looks like. Does aggression play a role in that?
Only when it needs to. I believe the definition of a man is someone that can slit a throat and hold a baby in the same day. I really do. I think that you have to have the entire spectrum in all areas and I only find it necessary to be aggressive when you're protecting.
Other than that, I think that you can love people through things and have conversations. I fired people that I told them I love them, but they got to go because I'd already set them down and say, hey, look, man, I brought you here. I believe in you. I really want you to make me right.
But you're doing this, this and this and you can't do this on jobsite. Maybe it's substance or maybe it's something that's a safety issue. So please prove me right, man, because I believe in you. Pull him in a month later.
Hey, man, I love you, but this isn't going to work. We all work for this company and I have to protect the other families. You have to go hug them. Let them go.
That's it. And so I don't see the I don't see a particular need to get overly aggressive with anyone in any situation. Even the physical altercation, I'm not a yellow. I'll just throw the first job cross because I don't even want to, you know, but there's times for aggression, but this outward projection of aggression, I'm never going to be good at.
I'm never going to be good at being an entertain. Ever. We align on very, very many things and we have a lot of the same beliefs and he is absolutely wonderful in person and you'd be shocked. But I'll never be able to be him the way he is online, you know, in any way.
And I could not even attempt to try, you know, it's just not in me. He has something that I don't in that way. Like as far as being an orator or being a person that talks in certain ways, I'll never be able to do that. I wish to because I think that my place in our group and what we're trying to accomplish together, which is to help young men all over the world, there's a place for me in that.
And it's not being Andrew. It's being Justin. And that's all it can be anyway. So it doesn't matter.
So what is the ideal that you want to see young men or old men for that matter strive towards? I want young men to take accountability. I want them to understand the world, look at what it will take to create the competencies to give them choice. It's no different from before.
I want young men to have choice. I say if I were to have a son and he were to be gay, I would be completely cool with that. My concern is like, okay, if this is how you feel, that's fine. I love you on my heart, need a conversation, right?
However, you're going to deal with this and this. Let me show you how I think you can best handle it and then put yourself in a position to have choice or you can live your life on your own terms. And that's all I want for any young man. Straight, gay, liberal, Republican, anything.
I love people truly. I have an Emmy. It's going to come off of me. I can't help it.
In fact, I would even go as far as say, my first year and a half online, I was just putting these positions where I couldn't show aside of me. That was actually in there. It's always these arguing, the part that really loves people, the part that's not really judging anybody, the part that wants to understand and help that part. I don't really have much hate or aggression in my heart really.
I have to only defend and get aggressive when it's somebody else. And for the most part, people's words don't hurt me. I had a clip that went viral. It wasn't even my clip.
It was a clip that went viral on a dating show at 25 million. And I was just getting hate because it was a Christian lady and somebody asked me about it on my podcast and they gave me a layup to shit on her. And I just refused to do it because I like a lot of things that lady says. And I think if I were to meet that woman outside of that context, we would get along just fine.
And for that reason, I just don't see that need to hate on anybody. I want to create a situation in my life and all my platforms where I'm enough for myself and anybody that wants to follow me can, anybody that doesn't, that's okay. And I want people to live their life that way because I feel like there's a big push in the world to either guilt or shame in into doing things that society wants. And I don't think that's the right way to go at all.
What does society want? I believe society wants to be weak. I think they want to be fat. I think they want to be submissive to their wives and the community in the way that maybe they don't want to go.
And I think that's why Andrew is so popular. I think there's a world full of, there's no superheroes anymore, man. I was sitting at Andrew's house the other day and this kid sent me a poster of me and Andrew in the wall. And I flipped over and I showed Andrew, I said, you know this used to be a rainbow.
And he goes, I know, it's fucking crazy. So I believe that young men are disenfranchised with the direction that society is trying to take them particularly in the West. And I think that they're fighting against it and maybe even over, maybe the red pill space is over correcting. I'm not crazy about being called a red pillar.
I'm really not. I'm really fucking hot. But I do believe that there's times where the red pill space when the world's dragging people in this direction and the red pill taking them to an extreme, hopefully, my genuine hope is that they fall in the middle and they can be a gentleman or they can be a father and they don't hate women. I certainly don't hate women at all.
And that's one thing that I think the red pill space will probably try to promote. Maybe there's a little peacocking. There's things that are wrong in the space. But I think on the average, all they're doing is counteracting what society is making men and they're hopefully falling in the middle if they have a brain.
You know what I heard Destiny say on show that if you were to measure most red pill content followers brain instead it'd be small. I don't think that's true. I just think that a young man will want to answer and they need somebody strong to look up to. And when they look up now, you know, they're superheroes or homosexual or feminine or whatever.
And then why doesn't that work or why is that bad? For young men? Yeah. I think that they're disenfranchised with being suppressed as males and that they want to grow up and they want to do these great things and they want to be strong and they want to be capable and the same thing with Jordan Peterson.
Jordan Peterson created the same movement in a much different way. And I just think that young men are tired of being asked to not be men. Okay. So that's hard to argue with man.
I can give you the art for it. It is not one that I necessarily agree with. But so before I do that, what I really want to understand every time somebody puts forth, like this is how I think things should be or whatever. They're a part of the hypothesis.
So your hypothesis is that men are, they're not given a vision of what they could be. So I think that they have a true nature is what I think they have a true nature and it's getting suppressed and they want to be something else. Okay. So men have a nature.
What is that nature? That nature is to conquer to get as much build up as much as they can become the greatest man that can build up what everything in their life. They want to, I think truly men want to be an abundance of resources. They want to have abundance of choice with women.
They want to have children. They want to have people that look up to them. They want to feel appreciated all of these things. And I think those things are by and largely getting suppressed.
But even in the school system, in what way does the school system suppress that? I don't feel like curriculums are made for their boys. I think they're made for mostly, I think girls do better in school than boys. And I think they boys don't want to sit still.
I think they want to go outside. I think they want to explore. I think they want to build things. And so when a little boy sits in a classroom and he's told to be quiet or to sit still for hours on end, he's not going to be successful.
Even me, myself, I feel sixth grade. I was labeled a 504 student. I got put on Ritalin. I didn't read all that well.
And so that made me feel like I was failing from the job. Well, jokes on them, like I substantially make more money than all of my teachers put together every year. It's just I think that the world, particularly little boys, have had enough of being suppressed and let down. And so that's why guys like Peterson say do so well.
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Very interesting. I want to I want to really point. Do I disagree with anything that you've said not yet? We may disagree in the particulars but I do want to make sure that we answer the question if so one thing I disagree with I don't think there is a problem at all if the superhero that's presented to kids is gay.
That doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I think I think that people are tired against pushing their face. I don't personally hear you. This is why I think there is there's something that marries these two ideas of the little mermaid being black, race-wapped and being given gay superheroes.
I mean articulate what it feels like from this side of the table but let me know. I love both groups. Got them against any ethnic group or homosexual people. In fact, I have a super good reason why I like gay guys.
Give it to me. Bro. Imagine this. You're in a room.
There's five guys in the room. One of those guys is gay. There's one girl that's pretty and everybody wants a girl. He's going to be the best dressed, sharpest.
He's probably going to be in the best shape and he's going to take one with him. So it's me against three other moms. I love a gay guy. Reason number two I love a gay guy is that if you get on his team he's the best ally on the planet as a wingman.
So I got numb below for him. Enjoy your month only. Yeah. I've had a bunch of close friends that are gay.
Really good to me too. I had a banker. That was my banker for ten years at Chase Bank. Really helped me through some hard times.
Helped me move money. All kinds of things. And he'd hit on me. I'm like, shut up.
And it was like this joke. I'm like, I'm going to kick your ass. He goes, oh please. It's like it's just like guys don't really care.
And I don't think people care about race and gender or excuse me, sexual preference as much as the world says. And I think that's the issue is that it gets pushed into people's face anyway when nobody really cares anymore. Okay. So the social engineering thing will set aside at least on that part.
But I do want to get a better understanding of, okay, you said society wants men weak. Why would they want to make them weak, effeminate? Do you think it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's comply. You want to take over a country, right?
Who are you going to attack? You're going to attack the fighting age males or you're going to attack the women, the children and the old people and get them thinking that way and then create pressures on the men and just let it blow up from the inside out. Don't you think that's what's happening to America right now? No.
What do you think's happening? So I have a very bad feeling that this is what happens when nobody's being chased by a lion. I think Jordan Peterson. So this is something I'm thinking through now.
So come and forgive me of six months from now. I've a totally different take. I watched Jordan Peterson go on his dad arc and I was really excited about it was amazing. And I think he helped a lot of people.
I know a lot of people hate him. Unimaginably good things for a lot of young men. And when he came back from his illness, he was like super religious. I did not understand the hard right turn.
I was like, what's going on? And looking back on when he was the Internet's dad, it was he was really ahead of his time. And he was saying things that people hadn't said before. And so you had guys coming out of the woodwork saying basically, thank you for holding me to a standard, which was what I was saying in the beginning.
I think this is really a problem of nobody's being held to an exacting standard. And the reason they're not being held to an exacting standard is there is no immediate consequence to not being held to an exacting standard because nobody's being chased by a lion. So you're even you can't make ends meet like people can survive in Chicago homeless. But like you can survive a winter in Chicago because you get governmental support and all that now that all of these things when you isolate them sound awesome.
I would never want somebody who ends up being homeless, not taking care of. And yet as we get to the point where Thomas Jefferson had a quote, every generation must pay for freedom in blood. And we don't do that anymore. And so we've now hit if Eric Weinstein is right, there was a 70 year window of prosperity.
That was amazing. But it's become deranged because I don't think intentionally with when nobody has World War, famine, Great Depression, like none of that stuff is hammering people that all the sudden we have to and now bring it back to Jordan Peterson, you've got young people who their final stage of development is a messianic complex. So you want to really go matter in the world. And I really get that.
But what happens when God is dead? It's not an effective way. It's not an effective organizing principle in society anymore because on mass we just don't believe in it. It's a it's folklore.
It's a fairy tale. It's not anything real. Nietzsche called this back whenever he was 11 forget what years. And that's really playing out now.
So you have a world where things are easy. And so this is your idea of you want to give people a choice and I get the way you mean it. So I'm going to use the same word, but I don't want to pretend I don't understand what you're talking about. The choice is the problem.
I think that there are so few things that people have to do to stay alive that all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm not in a battle here for the lives of our children. And so I don't have to be back to back with my wife where she also has a sword in her hand and I have a sword in mind. And look, I'm going to kill as many people as I can kill because that's my job. But hey, you better be ready if the shit hits the fan and you're the last line of defense.
You better be swinging that sword. And so that's my vision of how men and women have worked historically and yes, huge division of labor, all of that, we can go down that rabbit hole for now. Just that's how I think about it. They're back to back bringing what they each bring to the table to ensure the survival into the next generation.
So you have a world where you have everybody passing through the need to have their messianic moment where they can help save the world. But because there aren't those immediate impending dooms, we start latching onto things which are hugely important. They don't have that kind of immediacy. And so now it becomes, oh, God, you start going on like literal crusades, make whatever change you have to make, spend trillions of dollars, depopulate the earth for the climate.
The climate is the problem. The climate must be addressed. But when it becomes your messianic moment, then I think the solutions become pathologized and are no longer in the realm. When you want to make sure that gay people are celebrated and venerated as well as anybody else, but that's your messianic moment, then now all of a sudden it pushes out so far that it were to the point where we're not even protecting kids.
We're saying that, okay, same thing. Yeah. So people are having enough of this. I'm not even worried about people having enough.
What I'm saying is, is it pathological or not? Because if it isn't pathological and it is real progress, then people need to reorient. And so every movement is a North Star. I think there is only one right North Star.
I think it is absolute and I think it should apply to everybody. That is, does this action increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering at the widest possible scale? If yes, do it, if no, don't do it. Now you get into complexities about, okay, how do we wait future lives versus contemporary lives?
Anyway, we will rapidly get way too far off. So this is what I think is the problem. Everyone needs their messiah moment. Like we need it.
We need to matter. We need to feel like we've contributed. That's what I'm about appreciation. 100% which we'll get to next.
I've got a whole thing about appreciation. The number of times I've tried to get my wife to understand, all you have to do, you can manipulate me to the ends of the earth. I will do anything you want. Just fucking appreciate me.
Just make me feel appreciates. Yes. I know what you're talking about. 100%.
So, but right now my, the thing I think is a problem. I do not think there's a master plan. I think we've made things so good. I agree.
I think it's just fucked. Yeah. We've made things so good that now all of a sudden things are breaking down because we have these evolutionary drives to fight, to matter, to be messiahs. I don't mean that literally, but that impulse to really save people, to really contribute, to really help, but there's, there's no one to fight anymore.
There's so anyway, it just, there's pathology on both sides. It's what I really want people to understand. So what do you think? It's just because we're in this whole good times, strong men, strong men, weak times at whole.
Yeah. It's a very simple way. It's probably overly simplistic, but it certainly gets people in the right direction. But more important to me is, okay, then what do we do about it?
So that's where I really want to understand like the ideal you've laid out of what you want men to strive towards, what young men should be doing. But as we actually then put that in a modern context, what does it look like? What is your North Star off camera? You and I were talking, in fact, brought it up earlier, that if you're striving for money and things, it won't work.
But you should do it. And so how do you get people to understand that I have a lot of money and yet I'm still pursuing more money and unabashedly so. But I understand what money is. And so how do you help as the more nuanced of the tribe, the elder statesmen of the red tail here?
I would. So whether you're the most nuanced, totally different question, but as the more nuanced, how do we bring this into the real world? How do we give young men a map out of a world where I think they have too many choices because they're not truly under threat and they're making the easy choice at every turn and in conjunction with things like chemical exposure, which I do think microplastics play a big role in all this. And I want to imagine in that sort of whole thing, how do we help them find a path out?
So we have to start with the fact it's going to be hard. It's going to be difficult. You have to accept that. Right.
From there, there are things that we're obviously constantly promoting that they avoid drugs, porn, you know, chasing women as much as as much attention as let's say me and Andrew and Tristan get for chasing women. I cannot tell you how much I disencourage young men to chase women. I often say give up your 20s, become the best man you can possibly be women will see that go jump in front of you. I don't believe in game.
I've never taken a game course. I've never taught anybody how to pick up a girl. In fact, I would not even say I have a very good game. I think I have really good signals, but that's all predecessor from the work I did to become the best man I can be signals of what signals.
So Instagram, oh, he has a good lifestyle. He travels muscles. He's done well for himself. Other men respect him.
I think those are good signals that you would be a good mate. That ought to be a good mate. I think that's very primal. If you look in the animal kingdom, there's many, many animals that do dances or create certain or have colors and all these other things.
Why did Indians have feathers? So, so the women knew who could hunt and who couldn't what to get in. Right. I'm very non apologetically feel that way.
I do think that's very real and I think it's very primal. Do I think it'll make you happy? I absolutely do not. What makes a young man happier is always make me happy is working on the man that I'm going to become.
I often talk about this thing I have called the rocking chair test where I have this relationship with the older version of myself where he can no longer go out and live and work and just sit on a rocking chair, smoke and scar, drink and coffee and he's looking back and I keep this thing in my phone, a folder where I speak to him and I tell him, hey, I'm scared of this. I'm doing I'm doing four mobile home parks right now in due diligence. Hey, I'm a little bit scared. What if they're lying to me on the plumbing or what if what if I have to do in my dad's system and I'm constantly talking to him because my goal is to make the older version of me happy while I'm trying to become the man that I envisioned to be in my life and to do that, you have to take care of things like fitness, money, style, understanding how to network, understanding how to create connection with another human.
These are all the things that we're teaching people how to do. You're never going to go online and find an Android take where it's how to text girls. You're never going to hear me talking about how to text girls, text girls like this do this or most importantly how to manipulate girls. One thing I cannot stand seeing is people teaching young men how to neg women.
Oh, you're kind of okay. They're saying just be the best man you can be because if you can become that man, you now have the opportunity to be able to act like a gentleman and not have to do things to manipulate other people. You're just that guy and I think that we're trying to build young men that guy even if it's not a Tate status, even if it's not a fresh or myron status or a destiny status, maybe they're just a person that lives in a small town, has respect for people in the community, makes a couple hundred grand a year, which is a lot, right? And they live a full fulfilled life where they can have all the things that they wanted and they worked hard to get it.
So they really appreciate it. I don't believe in giving people compliments on something they didn't work hard for. If it's just something natural because it won't mean anything to you. And so I feel the same way for young men, if they have to work for it, they understand life's going to be hard.
They go through the struggles just like you went through the struggles in your business to build your businesses. It wouldn't be as sweet if you didn't have the pain. And so I think what we need to do is tell young men that it's going to be painful, it's going to hurt, you're going to get hit in the face, you're going to get broken, you might go bankrupt, but if you just keep fighting, you're going to be really proud of the man you become. And I don't think there's anything other than that that young man needs to know.
Okay, so what are the areas that you want to see that manifest in their life? So their physical body? I think it's number one. Even more than money, particularly when you're young and your body is developing.
I think your physical body is a big thing. Being able to communicate with other people and not getting overly aggressive, you know, I think that's really, really important. Understanding finances is a really, really big thing that I think most people are under educated in particular in the schools. If they can just understand how money works, they could have a better relationship with it, not be scared of it, be able to look at it, be able to actually use it as a tool, because that's all money is right, it's a tool, an opportunity for freedom.
And then understanding female nature, I think is very important. And there's a big divider for me between understanding female nature and learning gang, because I in no way ever want to make a young man think he needs to learn how to get women, he needs to be that guy and absorb the attention. And then from there, he has the proper masculine frame to retain the woman and have her respect him. And that's it.
Okay, so what does absorb the attention mean? Yeah. And everything, right, let's say you're doing fitness, money, style, you're obviously respected in your space or your industry. You're a person that garners respect.
I believe that women see that and they're like, that's a good horse to bet on. And then you're going to get attention from women and then you have abundance of choice of women. Notice I didn't say sleep with a bunch of women. A lot of people in rep Hill space will be like, oh, sleep with this many girls, blah, blah, blah.
I do think that having sex with women changes that dynamic and that young men should experience different dynamics with women after they slept with them, but I don't have the set number in my mind. I just would like to see them have that experience. I think that they'll need that in the future, of course. Why?
Why? Because when you sleep with a young woman that you're going to get a different response out of some women than others, some women will never talk to you again. They'll be on a yacht tomorrow, say Miami, right? Some girls, that means something too.
And I think a young man needs to see that because ideally if I were to help him make his decision, he would put much more of a time and energy investment in the young woman that wants to have a family and wants to not sleep with a bunch of people. I don't think that promiscuity for women is a good thing at all. I don't think it's good for them. And is it a double standard?
Yeah, I do think it's a double standard. Is it fair? No, sir, I don't. Is it a double standard brought to you by evolution or is it a double standard brought to you by a I think it's a side.
I think it's by evolution 100%. I think that so you I believe that men are wired to try to sleep with as many women as possible. And if they do that, they will have more what offspring. Yes.
So is there what's your nor star? Is it fulfillment is choice? Mine or stories always going to be choice choice choice. Look, who am I to tell?
Now I tell it's good. Who am I to tell a young man what to do with his life? I can tell everybody. Exactly.
So hey, here's how the world works. Here's what it's going to take for you to put yourself in a position of choice. And then once you get the choice, I think you should be a good person. I think you should be kind to people.
I think you should always tell the truth and be honest and be able to communicate with them. Okay. I can't tell you whether to have two wives or 50 girlfriends or one wife or to live in a monastery. Yes.
But you give a lot of advice. And I think the reason you give advice is you know that some steps make sense and other steps don't. And but I really have a hard time believing you actually optimize that you actually want people to optimize for choice. So I'll ask a clarifying question.
We'll do it. Well, no. So if somebody's life had more choices, but they ended up in screaming agony, would you still say that they were better off because they have more choices? No.
Okay. And that's a great point. So we're not our north star isn't choices. You just think choices is a step along a road to something else.
What is that something else? I'm going back to choice, man. Well, okay. So because some people are going to be genuine no matter what, but you know that you don't want somebody to end up in a scenario where they have all the choices in the world that they're in screaming pain.
Sure. Right. So if choice led to pain in their life, you'd say, oh, it's actually better to reduce choice. Right.
I would, but I think you're north star then. No, I believe that if you're taking care of your situation, let's say you're in a bad place and you're creating pain for yourself. You should have the choice to change your atmosphere. Love that.
I'm a very big believer in atmosphere. Like let's say that I was saying what do you get from changing your atmosphere? You put yourself in a different place. Have you not gone from one place to another and felt completely different?
I have. So I want to be very clear. So we don't argue about something stupid. I agree that choice is incredibly valuable in the way I feel about choice, exactly the way I feel about money that you want as much choice as you can get, but it isn't nothing.
So having choice will not make you feel good about yourself. So if you make wise choices, then you end up, no, no, no, I think this is really important. And this is where I think people end up optimizing for let's take money. It's far easier to people will get it when I say money.
Like if you're optimizing your life for money, we both know fools errand. Even if you get it, you're going to end up being like, oh, I didn't want this. So or it did not give me the thing I thought it was going to give me. So my favorite story to tell people about money is, oh, the way that I got rich was selling a piece of my company.