Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need.
It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, Accounting, Inventory, Ecommerce, and more. And the best part? Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's O-D-O-O.com Support for the show comes from Odo.
Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
CRM, Accounting, Inventory, Ecommerce, and more. And the best part? Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's O-D-O-O.com Co-host, Louis Swisher, and Casey Newton, the editor of Platformer, a newsletter about Big Tech. And democracy, obviously, Louis Swisher is my son, who is fantastic.
Hello, boys. Hello, Mom. Happy to be here. Thank you.
Casey in California, Louis downstairs at my studio, my podcast studio here in Washington. It's my second studio. So there's so much to talk about, and we are going to talk about what happened in the Capitol. How are you two doing at the end of 2020 into 2021?
Louis, tell me. Same day, different year. It's been a pretty weird experience, and it feels like a lot more of the same, especially with what happened or transpired yesterday. So we're going to get into that.
But how are you looking toward 2021? I mean, still with hope. It's still, I think, a pretty promising year, considering everything that's happened over the past week. But we'll just have to wait and see.
So how has the fall been? And going to college, and you went to NYU, and you completed a semester there. You also had a two-week quarantine, and everything else. So how would you assess your first few months of college?
Because there was a lot of controversy going back to school, and you'll be going back to school in a couple of weeks. Yes, I will be. It's definitely not all what you guys seem like. It's a very, very weird year to be in college.
Very limiting year to be in college. And there's still a lot of silver lining to it. My classes were still excellent. I still really enjoyed what I was learning about.
I found it very intriguing and interesting. But a lot of the social life of college was almost like shot in the gut. And that sucked. But I think it was manageable.
And I think as we move through this pandemic, things will get better. And it would turn to normal. But it was definitely a weird experience I've gone through, and something I'm glad has passed me. Yeah, well, not yet, actually.
Well, we're almost there. We're almost there. So, Casey, how are you doing there in San Francisco? California pandemic has gotten worse.
You're in place, is that right? Yeah, I mean, I was going to go down and see my family for Christmas, cancel my plans, spend the whole time here in the cottage. And that was really bad and hard, but it felt like a responsible thing to do. And I had about, I don't know, six hours worth of optimism when the Democrats regained control of the Senate.
And then a coup happened. But that was six years ago. Yeah, it feels that way. So yesterday, I mean, I truly think was a dark day in American history.
And I still think darker days could be ahead as long as Trump remains in office. So right now, my eyes just very much on what that man is going to do and whether he can be dislodged from the presidency preferably before January 20th. So that which is in 13 days, 13 days. Louis, we're going to get to the president in a second.
But Casey, when you're feeling that way, when you have this up and down thing, what do you do? What are you doing to cope? I mean, I do throw a lot of it into my work, right? Like the reason that I built the job that I have is because I like engaging with these issues and I covered the tech industry.
And I think there are things that the tech industry can do to make life marginally better for the rest of us. So, you know, I put a lot of it into there. But outside of that, I mean, the track, one of the many tragedies of the pandemic is it has just taken away some of my old coping mechanisms. You know, I'm in an improv comedy troupe.
We've been meeting over Zoom for nine months now. Let me tell you, hey, improv in real life. Wait till you have it happening over Zoom. It is not any better.
OK? Is it funnier? No, it's much worse. There's so much lag.
None of the jokes land. It's miserable. That was one of the main things that I would do to sort of decompress. You know, in a person can't travel, it's harder to see your friends.
The one nice thing is that, you know, here at the house, we now have a roof deck with great furniture. And so I'll have a friend over and we'll sit up on the roof and we'll, you know, have a drink or a glass of wine. And, you know, that has sort of been getting me through. But it's just really shocking how few things it feels like we really have that we're able to do safely, just to maintain some sort of social connection to the world around us right now.
Louis, how do you deal with that? Maybe I don't want to know. Yeah, I mean, there's some ways I could get into, but all right. All right.
Well, definitely I totally agree with what Casey just said. The usual means of like, you know, feeling better, like seeing good friends spending time with loved ones is it's it's almost impossible to nowadays without some sort of risk or, you know, fear on the mind. So I think it's, you know, it's, it's the year that's made us all stronger. And more resilient.
And, you know, I find myself like, you know, as everyone does struggling with 2020 and its continuation, it's, you know, most terrible sequel, 2021. So I think, you know, it's, it's a really hard year. But I think there's, you know, there's still some, I found spending a lot of time with the family. Yeah, I really enjoy your guys' company.
You're just saying that. Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. Who knows with you anymore.
All right, we're going to move on to the big story because there is only one story right now. So, okay, big story is obviously is the insurrection on the US Capitol this week. I can't believe I'm saying that. Let's talk about the platform's response to the coup and Trump's reactions.
Facebook removed Trump's video response to the mob wherein he said the writers were loved and special and he was cheated and he understood. And by the way, go home. That was sort of what he was supposed to be doing, but he did very little of that. Like quite a bit in the video Twitter, which he does all the time.
By the way, he did it all day yesterday, he's done it for the past months, since the election. Twitter ultimately removes several of Trump's tweets and locked him out of his butt for 12 hours. He's probably could be back on very soon. Possibly longer if he does not remove the tweets.
So let's start with Casey. Casey, you can reflect on this, this in a second because we're going to also talk about the organization. We also want to talk about the organization on platforms. But let's talk about the actions of not just Twitter, but it's YouTube and Facebook.
So all three of them removed the video that Trump posted in which he less than halfheartedly tried to encourage his mob to leave the capital. Facebook put out a statement saying they thought that on balance, it was likely or to lead to more violence than not. YouTube actually removed it first. Twitter had labeled it and then eventually removed it.
And then a few hours later, they issued both Facebook and YouTube issued temporary suspensions for Twitter. It was 12 hours after Trump deleted his tweets and for Facebook, it was a full 24 hour ban. YouTube still has yet to act. I don't think this is enough.
I argued in my column yesterday that now is the time to finally deplatform Trump. But these steps that they've taken, I think, have made it likelier than ever before than that they actually will. But they will do that. So why does 12 explain the thinking inside these companies?
Because they each do different things. They each do and they're confusing. They've been confusing for months about the different things they do here. Just lay them out very quickly for Louis.
And then I love Louis, your response of how you feel about the deplatforming. Yeah. So social networks are built to get posts up, right? Social networks work when they have as many people as possible on them and posting.
And if you make a mistake, they want to get you back up and running as soon as you can so that you can get on there and you can post and share and engage and see ads and click on ads and buy things, right? That's how these things are built. And so when they're designing policies like this, they don't come at it from the perspective of like, what are the ways that we can ban our users, right? It's always about what are the penalties that we can assess and all of those penalties are oriented around getting users back on the platform.
So you look at what Twitter did and that makes sense if you're talking about somebody who, I don't know, you know, you actually, I could call Louis like a really mean name on Twitter and like my account wouldn't be suspended. But you know, maybe I could like threaten him in some way. And you know, Twitter instead of banning me forever would say, all right, Casey, take 12 hours off, like get a cooler head and then you can come back to the platform. The problem is they're now trying to apply the same logic to a would-be autocrat who's staging a coup against his own government.
And so that's where I just think a line needs to be drawn. Right, Louis, how do you feel about this? What do you, and I, please don't do it because you and I have argued, I've thought he's a bit different from you, have been on the other side of that for a lot. Louis, what do you think about this?
As someone who watches this? Well, I totally agree with Casey there. I think these tech companies are way too forgiving and they're always trying to invite users on to their platforms. And it seems they don't really have a way to keep these leaders and the things they say, like hold them accountable for the things they say.
So I think he totally should have been kicked off a while ago. I guess I thought the presidency gave him some sort of protection on Twitter, but I guess it doesn't, it's a private company. Jack should kick him off whenever he pleases it, when he feels like it. And I think it should have been months ago, but no time like the president.
So, yeah. So, are you offended by, they argue, conservatives argue that they've been discriminated against, do you know proof that this has happened? But that they, to me, they violated it. That's BS, BS.
They violated it more. They've been giving a platform more than anything. Yeah, so do you feel that the president should be given a special consideration or not? Well, like, you know, he still has his first amendment rights to be, you know, to be, to speak freely and to be, I guess, be heard, doesn't have to be listened to.
But like you can't shout fire in a theater, you know, and he is, he just called for coo almost. Yeah. Without doing it necessarily, he called for coo and invasion of the Capitol. Yeah.
I think, you know, he needs to be held accountable for his words and what he incentivizes. How is that different from, I mean, I'm going to press you here, then, then cable, I can't believe I'm on this side. I think he should be deplatform completely, but the, the, the, they're not taking on television or somewhere else or saying those things. Because he's the president of the United States and people will listen to him.
Because it was, because he doesn't get edited there. And on TV, they can say that is not true. He shouldn't do that. They can, they can add things in and on Twitter, they don't do that or Facebook.
Yeah. He needs to be held accountable. Do you pay attention to him on Twitter at all? You know, I think the best way to deal with Trump going forward should be to ignore him, but apparently we can't leave him like alone.
So yeah, after the month, you have shifted on this. You and I, I thought he should be clever for a while. And I got a lot of flack from the First Amendment crowd because I was like, this, this is private company. This is not a public square.
They can do whatever they want, even though it's capricious. That's the problem I have with them. What, what, what shifted your brain that, that there were people taking selfies and Nancy Pelosi's office? So what?
Well, I've always agreed that they could do it if they wanted. I thought that one, it would just not be very practically effective because you know what would happen is that Trump would decamp to some other platform or he would just post to the official White House website and somebody would write a bot, actually, a lot of people would. They would instantly repost everything the president said on Twitter. One of those accounts would grow up, you know, and be really large.
And you know, you could say, well, you know, the platforms could ban those too. But I just think when you're talking about the president of the United States and you have a person who often is talking about the official business that he's conducting on behalf of the people, you just want to have a balance that tilts toward letting that person continue to talk, even if you think, you know, as I do that he is the worst person in the world. I think what changed is he now has no legitimate claim on power. He has no legitimate claim to that office.
He encouraged an attack on his own government yesterday. And if Twitter and Facebook want to continue to exist in a democracy, it is in their interest to remove someone who is using that platform as a weapon to undermine the democracy that we all depend on. So I just think that yesterday, a Rubicon was crossed. I understand the arguments to ban him earlier and my mentions are full of people saying, oh, well, you know, now, now you say it.
But frankly, I think that there is power in some cohort of us holding back, not calling for an immediate ban. And then when the bright line does finally get crossed, people like me and Ben Thompson come along and say, enough is enough. And you know, my hope is that it will have some influence inside of these walls of those platforms. So how does that manifest itself?
What do you think? That how it had out? How does that occur? And do you think they'll do it?
You have any insight? I know you do. I do. I do.
Twitter put out a multi thread statement that basically said Trump is on his last warning. I'm working on some reporting this time. When we was a kid, if you do this one more time. Yeah.
I mean, look, I, you know, last time this came up or one last time was when Trump basically threatened nuclear war, you know, like, I think it was against Iran. He's also said, you know, very scary things about North Korea. And I understand. Which is like, this is great.
Like this man is using this platform with threat nuclear war, like obviously get rid of him. You know, but at the same time, like this is an official communication from the president of the United States. Like we all hate that he's threatening nuclear war, but if he's going to do it, like, shouldn't we know? Shouldn't we like have that discussion?
And I've sort of I've leaned on that side. But we're just in a different ball game now. Joe Biden has been certified as the president elect of the United States. Trump is a lame duck.
He is soon to be a private citizen. And so he does no longer be afforded the protections that were given to the president of the United States. And I think that that's actually a huge difference. OK.
And Louie, when you think about where he can go, where he could go, how should there's a site I just did an interview this morning with John Mates of Parle, Parler, Parler used to be called Parle, and the things that are considered tweets on Parler are called parlays, which is confusing. He's probably going to go over there to other sites. Should he should there be a fully free speech platform? I mean, doesn't like a chain exist?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I think that there already are places for that. So I think yes, I think people have the right to, you know, say, what they want, but I don't think they have the right to be free of the consequences of what they say. There's always con there should, you know, if you threaten someone, there should be consequences. If you speak ill of someone, you may have to speak to that person or something.
But I think Trump is always going to be a slot on Fox News for Donald Trump. So I think he'll find places to go whether it's not whether it's Fox, OAN, Breitbart, other platforms who will hear what he has to say, regardless of, you know, if he's banned from Twitter. But I think being on mainstream platforms and holding a mainstream, you know, standing at a box in the public square and, you know, like a respected box, you know, it gives him an elevated voice that I think he no longer deserves. Yeah.
The mainstream. I think you're right about the mainstream thing. All right. Let's get to the idea of, do you think he's going to parlor cases?
You got to go back to the fringes. I do. I know why we got some breaking news. This is happening as we're recording.
Mark Zuckerberg just posted and said that they are going to respect Trump's access to his account indefinitely and at least through the next two weeks. So he is not going to have access to Facebook. So that's the right thing to do. And as a result, I would expect the president to find another home.
You know, so often what will happen is that one platform will make a move like this and the rest of them look sort of look around and say, you know what, like, if we're ever going to do it, it's now and they all kind of jump together. I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, by the end of today, Twitter, you know, it makes a similar move. Yeah, that's I'm guessing they should, which is what I called for just recently. So talk a little bit about the posting on social media of this.
That Louie, you were watching a lot of these things yesterday, these pictures of them doing selfies and stuff like that. One of the things that occurred to me was that they put their pictures out there. They're actually actively putting out their pictures. And so it's easy for the FBI to track them.
Yeah. Well, they think their Patriots saving the United States of America from an election that was stolen. They literally believe the narrative that they were trying to uphold and the narrative that they're fighting for. So I think if you were trying to save America, you would post a selfie too.
But, you know, they're just they're just incrimating themselves. They're proving that they were there. I mean, it's like I said, when we were talking before this podcast, there's any time to wear a mask, it's when you're storming the Capitol. So they can't spread COVID.
Louie, I mean, more for anonymity, but like more for anonymity, but like, I mean, it's just I think they're just totally incrimating themselves. And I think they're proud of their actions. And I think that totally debunked some of these Antifa theories about who, you know, who really rated the Capitol, which are ridiculous. But I think, you know, yeah, it's I think they're very proud of their actions.
It seems and they should be held responsible for their actions. All right, Casey, what about you? What do you think about this? How they're using social media, all the, all the maggot people are using it?
Cause they use it actively. They're on parlor. They're on, they're on all kinds of, they're on Instagram, they're Instagraming stuff. What it felt like, I was like literally it's a reality show.
It was duck dynasty. It was the guy with the Viking hat or wherever the hell that guy is. He's a very scary right wing fella. Like you know, the Q and on common or something.
Like you know, the Q and on guy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, except as part of living as a democracy, I'm going to be surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who disagree with me about all sorts of things, right?
And we're close. We do live in the castle. Hey, sometimes in the castle, they don't work close at all. So we're not going to be a social media.
That's a problem. What I see the problem is is realities are splintering. You look around the last couple of weeks, you have this pharmacist in Wisconsin who decides that vaccines are hurting people. So sabotage is 500 doses.
You have in the United Kingdom, people are hanging up the Magna Carta in the windows because they think it allows them to reopen their shops because they saw it in a viral Facebook post. Yeah. You saw the Nashville bomber who is under investigation for maybe believing that a lot of Democrats are like extraterrestrials and lizard people. And it's just become clear to me that this is not a problem that you can solve by removing individual pieces of information, which is what the platforms have tried to do up until now.
You actually need to promote high quality news. You need to create a shared sense of reality. And I can talk about ways that I think the platforms can do it. But ultimately, that I think is the issue that we need to address more than some Republicans are doing stupid posts.
So, Louie, when you think about this, about using social media, you're sort of a medium user. Tell me how you use it right now. How you think about that? I'm glad you didn't go to Congress and take a selfie.
And I'm glad you didn't steal the podium and then do things up. That picture, I was like, your entire face stealing and thumbs up. Like, hey, an adult. It was an adult who did it.
But go ahead. I wouldn't really want to hang around that crowd. But I think that, you know, I use social media pretty, as much it's gone up. I use it as definitely gone up during the pandemic and the restricted lifestyle that it creates.
But I've been trying to move away from more of the social media apps and more towards the social aspect of it and more towards the news aspect of it. I don't really know. I'm trying to be able to do a couple of things. You've evolved.
Talk about your evolving. Because you use Snapchat still, correct? Yeah, I do. I do.
I'm very happy with Facebook. I think, for now, I'll be asking for numbers and not Snapchat's. But forget the Snapchatting business. So when you do that, when you think about Instagram, when you think about TikTok, you don't do TikTok at all, is that correct?
Yeah, I had TikTok, but then I got rid of it. I wasn't really filling it. You said you got rid of it. Why?
I just wasn't really filling it. I didn't really enjoy that. I mean, I used it a lot. I definitely got my attention for a while.
But you were talking about the dancing. Yeah, I just found myself laying in bed and just scrolling on TikTok for hours and hours and hours and hours and I was like, wow, I need to delete this app. But now I do it with YouTube, so it's a little better. You've consistently used YouTube.
I love YouTube. So Casey, what is going to happen with this idea? And these companies also posting illegal pictures. Like these guys are stealing.
It's all fun and games until you steal Nancy Pelosi's podium. Yeah. I mean, there's been this really interesting debate about that over the past couple of years, because people will use social media to post war crimes, for example, or they'll post stolen antiquities. And the platforms will come along and say, well, this is a crime.
And you're not allowed to post evidence of crime on our networks until they'll delete it. And then the activists come along and says, you're deleting evidence of war crimes. And you're deleting part of the historical record. And so there's this debate about what platforms should do.
And I think the answer is that instead of deleting the content, it probably doesn't need to be removed. They were doing that with a lot of the people in beta and the capital that were taking down their videos. But keeping up the journalists' ones of the same thing from the other side, which was interesting. There's a great organization called Belling Cat, which is a lot of investigations into wrongdoing, using social media as part of their investigations.
And yesterday, they put out a call. And they said, if you see any video anywhere from the capital, please save them and submit them to us, because we want to build a historical record of everything that's going on. I'm sure some of it will be shared with law enforcement. But so you're now seeing these community projects that are saying this.
So the revolution will be televised. And our lives streamed. And all of it. By the way, MAGA people, it's not a revolution.
It's just gross to what it is. And then lastly, when you think about this idea of keeping every bit of things in a record, how do you feel about that? Because your whole life, you and I have had long discussions. I'm a bit too much of a Sharon.
Your brother never lets me put anything up. And he's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very good at Apple event. And some Apple reporter, photographer, snagged a picture of him, was up on the website. Like, coincidentally, he had it shut down within minutes.
He was like, what? And he was like, what? Goddamn it, that's my end. He made me call him like him cook.
And take a deep look. Like I said, easier to find images of Richard Sackler. All right. Casey and Luke, let's go on a quick break.
When we come back, we'll talk about another big news during the week to send it flipping blue. And what it means for the future of internet regulations. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough.
So why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need.
It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's O-D-O-O.com.
Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.
Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.
And the best part? Odo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you?
Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's O-D-O-O.com. OK, we're back. Georgia voted in senators Raphael Warnick and John Ossoff to be in the Senate.
Both Democrats. That means the House, the Senate, and the White House will all be blue. What will it mean for the future, the FCC and the future of the internet? Now I know, Louis, you're not an expert.
But you have thoughts on tech regulation. And I talk about it consistently and constantly. I know it's riveting to you. But I'm going to start with Casey on this one.
Casey, what happens to all these things? That neutrality. That attacks on TikTok, Amazon of the Post Office. Test, section 230.
Bill Barr had started in the Justice Department against Google and then the FTC against Facebook. Yeah, I think the number one thing is you will just see these questions begin to be answered in a columnar slower democratic process and not be decided by the whims of a madman. And that's like we sort of just take for granted that that's like our way of life now, but it's not going to be next month and I can't wait. But it is going to have some practical consequences.
I think one of the big ones is there was an assumption that the Republicans would maintain control of the Senate. And so Biden would have to compromise on his FCC appointees in particular and would not be allowed to appoint anyone who believed in that neutrality. That's not true anymore. So Biden has a real opportunity to get in there and appoint people who believe in that neutrality.
And so this could have actually saved that neutrality for the rest of us. Save that neutrality. All right, what else? What are they going to do?
Because I think Biden doesn't know a whole lot. Every time he talks to 30, I get a little bit like no. He doesn't. It's really, it's one of the things about him that I find the most disappointing is he doesn't have a sophisticated understanding at all.
I mean, I'm sure there are some laws he has a good understanding. Hey, wait, wait, does your grandpa, like come on? Does he have to understand how to work? He's dead for your information, Louie.
Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Too soon. Too soon. It's okay.
Yeah, he doesn't have a good understanding of that. And but okay, but at the same time, he has said, like, ban it and repeal it. So and he doesn't like use that kind of talk lightly or about a lot of things. And so I've been inclined to believe he's at least somewhat serious.
So it doesn't look like he's talking about it. I think she has more to speak. And some others have different thoughts. There are a lot of very, let's me disabuse.
There's a lot of very intelligent politicians on these issues, by the way. On both sides of the aisle, incredibly, there's a lot of really smart people who do understand this and they regulate everything else. So there's no reason why they can't regulate this. So if you had to stack rank, what is going to be looked at?
Obviously, they're continuing in the investigation, Justice Department investigation, the FTC investigations into Facebook, Google. What do you see the big part? Is it going to be antitrust? Is it going to be a privacy law?
Is it going to be Section 230? Is Josh, I think Josh Ollie is finished in many ways. And he certainly can't be the leader on this 230 thing, which he was relatively pushing it really hard. But what do you think?
Pick one. I think antitrust, because both Republicans and Democrats share the belief that these companies are too big and they want to see them broken up. You know, I actually think we will see more antitrust. There's a lot of momentum behind an Amazon antitrust suit.
And there's a lot of good reason to pursue an Apple antitrust suit. So I would be surprised if by the end of the year, both of those were facing antitrust, or regulations of their own. And you think Merrick Garland is boo-back these? It'll take the backing of the time.
I know Merrick Garland, Cara, which I don't. I do. I said it's over there. He's lovely.
He's lovely. He's lovely. This is a dinner party in Washington that I went to, which I'm going to drop some names here. But on one side was Merrick Garland, and the other side was Elena Kagan.
Oh my gosh. It was like Supreme Court Justice and the one who didn't get it. And it was so, of course, what did I do? That sucked, huh.
That's what I said to Merrick Garland. And I bet he loved it. He was like, get out of this flyer cracker over here. He was super sweet.
He's very nice. He's really calm, but his wife was like, yeah, that sucked. You know what I mean? It was interesting.
It was an interesting thing. But in any case, that's easy. So when you think about regulating, you're not an expert in this, obviously. But when you think about Big Tech, are they?
Well, you're not. What do you think about the power of Big Tech and power of big companies? Are you worried that, you know, I think I've drilled it into you that we shouldn't have nests in our house, this and that? Like the idea.
Yeah, we totally have a thermostat. We have a thermostat, but it's all the things are turned off. You can't really spy us too much. And again, your brother went around and unplugged all the cameras and everything else that happened to be in the house.
But how do you feel about the power of Big Tech? As a young person. Big Tech has way too much power. And I think with this change in political control of characters like Elizabeth Warner and I have a field day on the tech industry, which I'm really excited to see happen.
I think they've long gone to unregulated. They're just like the big oil companies of the last of the past centuries. And I think that they're, you know, it's time that they got regulated. It's time that the employees became more respected in the companies rather than like the shareholders.
And like that the, you know, I just think it's time for change. And I think this is the time for it. So you use Amazon. That's the one you interface.
I don't really like Amazon. I actually like going to the store. Oh, wow. I think that's pretty exciting.
Yeah. I think Amazon is great. Amazon is a, I've definitely used Amazon a lot in the past. But you think about it?
Because a lot of people feel like a lot of younger people do make choices on what they buy it and where they buy it. Yeah. I mean, I always prefer to go to like a brick and mortar establishment. I find it more exciting than just sitting behind my computer and clicking away.
And also I find it by less than like if I'm just sitting behind the computer. All right. But I think I'm always aware of what I'm doing. I think a lot of younger people are too.
They also think a lot of people are very unaware of the implications of their decisions on the internet and which companies they interact with. Yeah. Would you be able to stack right from yourself? Which ones do you think are better or worse?
I'll give you five. Apple, Netflix, Google, Google slash Alphabet, Facebook, and Twitter. Well, it's very subjective. What do you mean by that?
Well, which one do you feel has your interest at heart? When you think of the brands that you like? Probably. I feel like I trust Apple the most out of all those companies to have my interest at heart.
I think I just got a new phone. And there's a terms of service. I actually looked at the terms of service for the first time. Oh, wow.
It was a little, I didn't read the whole thing, of course. But I found it a little more comforted by Apple than any of these other companies. Some of them scare me. Amazon definitely scares me.
Uh-huh. And what about Netflix? When it knows what you watch, you watch a lot of Netflix. Yeah, I'm more of an HBO Max kind of guy.
But I do like Netflix. I watch a lot of great shows. They've taken off some ones that I like, which I'm upset about. But I do go out.
This is off topic. But you're an HBO Max kind of guy. Why is that? All these streaming services.
How do you look at it? Because you use them all. You use all of them. Yeah.
You watch a linear way? No. You just watch everything on the man, correct? What is the linear way?
What is the linear way? It comes on. And watch it on the cable box. Oh, yeah.
I used to when I was younger. But now we have all these cool technologies. I don't have to. Yeah.
So what do you use? YouTube? I use YouTube way too much. I love YouTube.
It's good for my show retention span. And it has a lot of interesting content. I try to watch more informative content than stupid content. But I find I enjoy both.
Can I ask you a question? When this idea I wrote recently about Warner Brothers putting all the movies on Casey's written about this too. One of those putting all the movies on streaming services so that you watch them at home. I watch Wonder Woman 84, for example.
They put all 17 movies on their 17 other movies on their slate on their new HBO service. Do you care about movie theaters? Or do you rather just watch them when you want to? Well, I was that for Casey?
No, for you. And then Casey. Well, I've been a long-standing believer in watching movies at home over the movie theaters since I was little. Like I can pause it when I want.
I can bring the food that I want. You know, I think you can turn your home into a movie theater, which is pretty exciting. But there is always this like, you know, there's a joy growing the movie theater that can't really be replaced. So I think those will definitely stick around.
But I much prefer watching movies at home than the theater. What about you Casey Newton? Why aren't you on the internet there in San Francisco? My hope is that this is the crisis that leads movie theaters to reinvent themselves.
We already have some great movie theaters here in San Francisco. I love the Alamo, Draft House. Sure. Pretty much.
Oh, no, the wine market there is okay. The Kabuki is nice too. You can order a drink, right? The food is maybe one cut above what you would find like at an AMC.
You know, when there's a kid, we got movie tickets and they wouldn't let us in because we had to go through the bar to get there once. You walk through the bar. That was a great crisis. It was for your family.
Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think, you know, I remember before the pandemic, Alamo was starting to experiment with like a monthly pass. And I think it was 30 bucks a month and you could see like two or three movies, right? You know, movie pass sort of came in white, but I think a lot of people excited about the idea of what a smarter movie theater could do.
So I think there's a lot of opportunity there. Because at the end of the day, like people need to go on dates. People need to do things with their kids, right? Like people love to leave the house.
And I think they will be happy to do so again, but the movie theaters are going to need to meet them halfway. You know, to your Wonder Woman point, I watched that movie on Christmas. Terrible, by the way, really sad. But it's a movie that after I read the reviews, I wouldn't have gone to see it in the theater, but I was happy to pay HBO 15 bucks to have something to do on Christmas.
So I think there's a way where like everyone can win here. All right. What's your big show? I'm a little tired.
Louis is sort of retro. What is your C.C.? I can't expect quarantine. I've watched 30 seasons of Survivor.
Oh, there's something in this time watching like it's such a hard time the way I feel better about myself. I'm gonna regulate Casey. That's what needs to happen. Yeah, we got that.
That's too much Survivor. It definitely is. I also just got masterclass. So now I'm watching Gordon Ramsey is teaching me.
Oh, I've seen the ads for that. It seems that's got me. That's great. It looks great.
I like it. All right. I do have a lot of take though on this. I think 2020 and the pandemic, everything.
It will be the rebirth of the drive and movie. I think that is going to be reinvented. This summer, it was really great. It was, I think that's going to be a big comeback.
And that just because teams love making out and driving movies. I mean, that's one reason. But I think they're really nice. They're really charming, especially.
And you know, when everyone's there, everyone's distanced, but everyone's safe and everyone's having a good time. It's almost like a semblance of normalcy. But I think it's really, really something everyone's searching for. Yeah, that's a flash in the pan.
People will go right back to not going to. Hey, if there's a drive movie, I'd love to go. All right. Okay.
Okay. You want to ask you, what is your prediction, Louis? Is that your prediction that we drive and movie? That's not a prediction.
You're going to watch the next one. You're going to watch, right? That's my next adventure. Your next adventure.
Okay. On that note, all right, Casey and Louis, one more quick break and we'll be back for predictions. So we are 250 years into this American experiment. And I'm saying it's going okay.
I give us like a C plus. There is no perfect past, but there is also no exclusively negative past because humans are going to human. That's what we do. I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people.
What's going to determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve? Okay. So I'm just going to be a jerk here because I'm a historian.
So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people. Okay. You know, I do still remember it from Schoolhouse Rock. We the people and the former more perfect union established justice.
What is it? Insure domestic tranquility? So you're talking about a financial document. So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy.
That's this week on America, actually. This week on Network In Shell, I'm joined by tanks and address the meme king with over 50 million followers across tank good news influencers and movies. And his personal account tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is. How much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes and how mean culture think preparation age, starter packs and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping how we think about money and value.
Get ready for a conversation that will change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the silliest of jokes. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. Okay. Casey and Louie usually Scott is the prediction machine.
But tell me one thing you expect to see in the days, weeks or months ahead. Casey, you go first. All right. No beauty before beauty and age last.
I'm an honorary member of Gen Z. My hot prediction is that Cheryl Samberg will not be a Facebook by the end of the year. I think assuming that Trump is dislodged from the presidency, Democrats retake control of everything, start to pass some pro democracy legislation. She will not have a better opportunity in the next four years than she has this year, maybe next year to kind of gracefully step away.
I'm not sure if I'm going to say, look, we had a lot of problems. I fixed as many of them as I could. This is a natural stepping away point for me. So I say Cheryl's days are now numbered.
Oh, wow. And what is the real behind the scenes situation, Casey? Yeah, I haven't heard a lot of whispering, but the question I'm always asking people at Facebook is like, what is Cheryl like about her job? Like she has nothing left to prove.
She has nothing left to prove. She has nothing left to prove. She still has influential. Yeah.
I think that she's extremely influential. I mean, you know, Mark takes her counsel very seriously. Yeah. But she's been doing that job a long time and no part of that job.
I think Mark takes his own counsel. I think he does. He was relying on her a lot more and less so and that's the problem. One of the well, you know, people have a lot of criticism of her too.
But that's a very good prediction. When, when, when. I'm just going to I would say like by the end of the year is sort of what it feels like to me. I think it'll depend.
I mean, first of all, the Democrats have to actually assume power like they've won. She's not getting a job in this administration. I don't think she wants one. Like I think she'll do something that's like sort of either in the nonprofit realm or the venture realm at least for a little bit.
Like maybe she'll come back to politics later. I mean, she's an incredibly talented business leader. Like she can do a million different things. So she can she can revive the career because she's really been tarnished.
I know in DC they're like, no way. You know, she would have been she would have been number one on the list of commerce, labor, this and that. I think that's what that has to be like intermediate snap, which, you know, might make a non profit thing more likely. But I can also just hear like doing something like that, you know, for the next, you know, long stretch of her career.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
She's still young. She's still very young. I think a lot of people definitely have a lot of criticism of her and a lot of it is aimed at her over Mark, which as you know, I have argued that Mark deserves much of the credit and the. Attraction.
Louie prediction. I think my prediction for 2021, maybe the coming months coming here is that it's going to be a year of progress. It may not be. I think now that the Senate has flipped blue, it's going to be a bit more progress than it would have been, but I think it will be incremental and steady progress towards a greater America based off, you know, the fact that there's, you know, a return to a sense of normalcy, a step away from the chaotic, or the chaos of the Trump era and the Trump administration.
I think, you know, call me young and naive, but I think we have, okay, but I think we have a politician who will actually now listen to us. And if there's going to be real change, I think it's going to happen now. You sound like a problem. I think the first thing you should do is fix the election or else nothing's going to happen.
Would you want to run for office? Maybe. I don't know. There's a lot of things I want to do in my life, but we will see.