UFOs, Aliens, Antigravity & Government Secrets - Jesse Michels - #982

An interest with UFOs is maladaptive to most people. How so? Oh yeah, you're quoting me on Danny Jones. I think in some ways, and this actually speaks to, you know, we're on modern wisdom here, I think a lot of what people should be focused on is the lower end of Maslow's hierarchy.

Like it's like subsistence living, you know, paying taxes on time, putting food on the table, being basically healthy. And then I think at a certain point, then you start to care about this sort of more like existential, you know, who are we, what's our place in the universe? You know, what is humanity's place in the cosmos? And so that's why I think in some ways it's maladaptive.

Because if you don't have that lower end sort of figured out, it's like, why focus on this sort of, you know, really crazy pine, this guy stuff. That's so interesting that you think people have sort of taken the stairlift to the top of Everest, the hierarchy of needs. Like if you're asking, are we alone in the universe, but you haven't got a steady job or your health's in the toilet or you don't have a community of people around you, you're probably focusing on the wrong things. 100%.

In fact, I think a lot of people focus on it as a circumvention of reality itself. It's an escape mechanism. And so you want to get abducted or taken away on a UFO or something. That's a fucking place.

Yeah, right. You want to throw Hail Mary because there's, you know, things aren't going well on sort of a base level. And so I think for those people, they should probably just focus on the core issue. You know, if they have like a marital problem or something, like you'll focus on that.

Like, that's an interesting question. What is the avatar in 2025 of somebody who's interested in UFOs? Because, you know, there's kind of a, and I wonder why this is the case when I think about UFOs. I always think about sort of the 60s and the 70s.

Yes. That's kind of the golden era of abductions and stories and Roswell. And like that's kind of where my mind goes to. Yes.

But you're a good example of someone who's super smart and is me deep in all the research for this stuff. Something tells me you're probably a little bit non-typical. Yeah. But like, who is the avatar for the UFO investigator now or the Monday morning quarterback?

I think it's radically shifting. So I think even five, 10 years ago, it would have been like you go to this like contact in the desert. Is this like, you know, convention for UFOs? It used to actually take place in the actual desert.

People started to get like heat strokes and stuff and now it's like indoors. But it's all like, you know, it's a lot of crystal healers from the Southwest sort of, you know, it's people who are, and I love a lot of these people, you know, they live in like Sedona or something or, you know, in some of these small towns across the US and they've had family experiences or they're just a little more kind of woo-woo and that's what kind of got them into this stuff. I think that's dramatically started to change. I mean, a good example is like certain people you've had on Eric Weinstein, my old colleague, you know, we worked together at Teal Capital at, you know, Peter Teal's family office, you know, very sort of conventionally successful guy.

You had Tulsi Gabardan. She's the now, you know, director of national intelligence who oversees all of the intelligence agencies and she has stated as part of her mandate that she wants to look into UFOs. Like this is, and I've actually spoken to her and she is explicitly very interested in this topic. That plus a bunch of whistleblowers, David Grush at the National Geospatial Agency and NRO and has kind of a very kind of typical and impressive sort of crusty granola crowd.

Yes, exactly. I think that is destigmatized for a lot of people and you're starting to see high agency Silicon Valley, just, you know, average people start to get into the topic. What happened with UAPs? Is UAPs?

Because there was a brief period where we went there, you know, it was like people of color, colored people and then we went back to people of color. Yes. Yes. There's a whole like, you know, yeah, there's like a whole like almost like a low key UFO thing going on.

It's like a nomenclature thing. You know, and I don't like UAPs. The reason I don't like it, a little context, there was something called the UAP Task Force that was actually set up. And that was the context in which David Grush ended up blowing the whistle because he was tasked by the National Geospatial Agency and this little group called the UAP Task Force, which had representatives from pretty much every branch of the military looking into UFOs explicitly or UAPs as they called them.

And that sort of in that sort of group, they decided that UAPs was the new term. It's a broader term, unidentified aerial phenomena instead of an identified flying object. I like UFO because it's more specific, actually, sort of more falsifiable in a sense. And a lot of people are, you know, worried about this whole thing sort of being a scyop.

And because of that, I like the classic just UFO, you know, this was in the zeitgeist, like you said, in the 40s and 50s and 60s. Let's just go back to that. In case UAP is some scourleous attempt to try and weave something else in. So it's a hot air balloon.

It's a distortion in the upper atmosphere or it's whatever. 100% some sort of secret weaponry. Like there's a whole so many different, there's a slew of possibilities as far as what you might see in the sky, these in my lard balloon, you know, all these different things. And so I like UFO because it's more specific and it's talking about the kind of archetypal, you know, a saucer, a tic-tac, a craft, you know, these sort of, you know, things that people have seen, not only, you know, since the 40s, 50s and 60s, but across millennia, like in across disparate cultures too.

Imagine that someone's never really looked that deeply into UFOs. How would you lay out the landscape and story arc of evidence for them? Yeah, I love this. So I think UFOs go way beyond the threshold of what you'd need evidence-wise to accept this as a worthy field of inquiry.

If it were any other field, like literally the only reason people don't look into this is because people who are part of the priestly citadel of science, like Neil deGrasse Tyson say there's nothing to UFOs. Otherwise, you have presidents who've openly talked about UFOs. You have Don Jr. just interviewed, you know, outgoing President Trump in his first term, saying, what do you know about Roswell?

I need to know. And Donald Trump goes, I know a lot of interesting things, and I won't say them here. You have President Obama saying we have unidentified, pulling objects that we don't know what they are in our sky. We're investigating these things.

The Office of Naval Intelligence and the Pentagon have released two reports, one in 2021 and 2021. And there are all these objects that, you know, you have this sort of decision tree of like space trash and, you know, other sort of, you know, my lard balloons, like all these things. And you have a bunch of these things that were spotted that don't, you know, neatly categorize. President Jimmy Carter saw UFO and he's on video saying I saw UFO.

He goes into his term, his single term saying, you know, I want to declassify stuff around UFOs. And then you never really hear anything about it again, which is the same thing, by the way, that's happening with Trump. It's not even like the Epstein thing where you get this bizarre kind of denial, lone sex, trafficker theory that everybody knows is bogus with the UFO thing. It's this common trope where sometimes presidents will will campaign on this thing.

And then they just go silent and they cite national security often. And so it's this very sort of weird thing. And then most recently in 2017, you had Leslie Kane, this New York Times journalist come out with this article associated with the article are three videos, the gimbal, the go fast video, these are videos that were taken off the coast of Florida and the Nimitz tick tech sighting, which is this very famous sighting. Commander David Fraver is this Navy pilot who's very well respected.

He was actually in charge of guarding Los Angeles during 9-11 when we weren't sure how many planes were in the sky and which said he's might be attacked. So he's like a very reputable guy speaks in this very matter of fact way. And he saw this tick-tack shaped object hovering right above the surface of the water. He was part of this Nimitz carrier strike group, so all these air force carriers and his big Navy ships.

And he went out on F-16, saw this little tick-tack and the tick-tack went up to 60,000 feet plus in 7-8ths of a second. And you have him, you have Fleer, which is forward looking infrared, seeing this object. And this video is up, you can watch it on YouTube and stuff. So since then, and then David Grush, who's this whistleblower saying that he's basically over 100 pages he gave to the IC Inspector General, this guy Thomas Monheim in 2022.

Thomas Monheim said this was urgent and credible. And he gave Thomas Monheim 40 whistleblowers directly who said that they had first-hand knowledge of UFO programs inside the government. And so that's like this very near-term falsifiable thing, right? It's not this like hand-away reclaim.

And I think since then, people have really started to take this more seriously. But even more sort of outside of high levels of government and needing to sort of explain that sort of mass hysteria way, if you're kind of a debunker, you have databases like the National UFO Reporting Center, which have over 100,000 instances online. So I think it's 150k plus at this point. You have a great book called UFOs and Nukes.

So one thing people like to say as far as why UFOs aren't scientific or aren't real because they're ephemeral, they show up randomly, right? There's no repeatable. Science has to be repeatable, right? And I think this is very repeatable actually because UFOs show up consistently around nuclear installations, nuclear weapons installations and nuclear energy civilian grids.

And so this book, which is almost 600 pages, the most dry, terse book you'll ever read in your life, it's almost boring because it's so meticulously done. If you speak to the guy who wrote it, this guy named Robert Hastings, you get no grifting vibes, no like salesy bullshit at all. It's a spreadsheet, it's a book. That's right.

It's a database and it's even better than a database because it's filtering for witnesses who are inherently the most credible witnesses I could pick in the world because these guys are on what's called the PRP. So these guys are employees at nuclear bases across the United States and they're on what's called the PRP program, the personal reliability program. They have to report all their mental health history and if they're on ib-profan, like they literally have to report. You're in charge of a nuclear site of some kind and you're having a bit of a wobble, that's a bad idea.

That's a bad idea. Get that person fired immediately. I don't want that person around the crown jewel assets of American defense. So these guys often see tiktoks, orbs, saucers, they'll see these objects.

They'll have to sign NDAs. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations will enter their life and say, you know, sign this NDA and they're sworn to secrecy and then they're allowed to keep their jobs. And if you think about it, like if somebody were like seeing something and it weren't this routine thing in the world of the Atomic Energy Commission and DOE, would any of these people be allowed to keep their jobs? Absolutely not.

So he has 167 of these whistleblowers and they've gone on record. How is it the case? That's a large cohort of people from different backgrounds all talking about things that they've seen or seen or heard that someone's seen or been put so and so forth. How is it the case that there is so much which is hearsay and so little which we have?

So like where is the actual tangible evidence? Not a recording that's on FLIR, not the story that somebody said, not a list of sightings. Surely we should, if there are this many, we should have something. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, again, you do have a massive database of first-hand reports. The FLIR I think is important. It's a sensor modality that we see between 400 and 700 nanometers of the electromagnetic wave spectrum just because something's at the 800 nanometer mark or 300 nanometer mark doesn't mean it's fake.

You know, like that is a real thing. So I think the FLIR thing is really important and it feels like with UFOs, they either crunch light or they stretch light because they move so fast. And so optical is not actually a good modality for them. Usually they show up in infrared or in certain cases UV rays.

So like the ends actually of the visible spectrum. And so I do think that's like a really important question. But then also there are photos. Like there's this McMendville photo that was taken in Oregon in the 50s.

There's the Calvin photo, which is from Scotland, these hikers in the 90s. And somebody from the British Ministry of Defense, this guy Nick Pope, says that the Calvin photo is absolutely real. You have the negatives in both cases. So I do think you do have a decent amount of evidence.

Now what you're asking, I think, is why don't we have a saucer unveiled at a hanger? There's something that can be materially be verifiably proven to be from something that's otherworldly. So it's an interesting question. I don't think you can definitively prove that something is necessarily otherworldly.

You have to look at a fact pattern that is this anomalous enough to say that it's not from here. And there's a guy named Gary Nolan, who's a Nobel Prize nominee every single year. He's a tenured professor at Stanford. And he has crash materials in his lab.

I've seen them. I've shown them on video on my show. They're small. But they were basically given to him around UFO crash.

UFO crash witnesses mailed them to this guy, Jacques Boulais. And Jacques Boulais gave them two Gary Nolan. He's done mass spectrometry on them. He says that they have isotope ratios that don't naturally occur on Earth.

And they don't pattern match the asteroids as well. And so you have evidence like that when it comes to large scale saucers, I think you have to think probabilistically. So I love you. There's this English statistician named Thomas Bays.

And his model is a way of scientific thinking, but it's not necessarily the Francis Bacon style where you go and you have this null hypothesis that you cling to at all costs. His is more, you think about everything probabilistically. And so you catalog something as low probability and you build up evidence. And so what I would say for the UFO phenomena is like everybody has our UFOs real.

I'm 99% sure that aerial phenomena in the sky that don't pattern match planes. Like prosaic explanations where there's a nuclear link, that is fully real. And then is there a conflation going on between that and like a saucer and a hanger? Like maybe I can't say in good faith that there definitely isn't because I haven't seen the saucer and the hanger, right?

So it's like it's David Hume style, but you need that like ultimate like epistemic humility when it comes to that saucer and the hanger. Now I can give you a million good reasons why if the American defense establishment, I mean, we haven't declassified an aerial program basically since I think the B2 self bomber. You have F-22, F-35s. I think those were unclassified upon their manufacturing.

12 out of the 15 Lockheed skunk works programs now are still classified. So say you had this kind of ace in the hole crazy, anti-gravity craft or whatever. And it was in a hanger. I can give you a million different reasons why you would never let that see the light of death.

You don't care about enlightening the public and spiring them about other worlds. I mean, technology always gets weaponized and it's always used to confer a tactical advantage geopolitically. And that will always take the day. That will always trump wanting to enlighten the public.

It's going to do that with AI and all these other tech trees. So I think that would be the other reason. How do we know this isn't just a scyop? I think it is a scyop.

I think there are scyops. So this is the real mind. Like fucking horseshoe theory of UFO. It's not a disc, it's a horseshoe.

It is. Well, here's the thing. The fact that something is real and it's a scyop are positive sum, not negative sum. So this is the total mind for people.

How many, if Chris, you're a smart guy, if I were like, okay, Bigfoot, you know, exist, I promise it exists. And I tried to come up with some back pattern around how it exists and like all this, you know, evidence is how would you ever believe me about Bigfoot? If you gave me sufficiently compelling evidence. Well, most of you, I don't know.

I think the Bigfoot thing, you know, is like pretty unlikely or like I give you like other most scyops are easy to figure out. Like the Gulf of Tonkin or something created the auspices around, you know, invading Vietnam where like, I think it was like the first thing was like an attack on the USS Maddox and then there's like a second attack under LBJ. And it was just like a weather event and they claimed that it was basically this false flag operation or the USS Maine. These sorts of scyops get figured out very quickly.

Like does anybody believe the Epstein thing? Like does anybody you talk to believe the Epstein? Nobody believes that. It's crazy.

I don't even know the government doesn't believe it. It is the only person I've seen who appears to be happy with the outcome of it. It's actually Ben Shapiro. I was going to say that too.

It's the only guy. You know, one of those rare occurrences where both left and right are pissed off equally. Yes. You know, left pissed off because this sort of powerful banker appears and the reversal of the Trump administration so on and so on and so on.

The right pissed off because they're like allergic to Peter Filier and you know, kind of wanted to stand up for kids and do all the rest of the stuff. And you go, everybody's pissed off. It's a Ben. I don't know.

I don't know. Because guys, it's it's we've decided you're conspiracy theorists now. Like what are you talking about, dude? I'm an odd one.

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Your point being that all of the other ones tend to be relatively see-throughable, but would you not suggest that as governments get more sophisticated as they refine the Si-OP strategy that they may be able to become a little bit more sophisticated with this sort of stuff? Yes, but the levels of coordination to Si-OP people that work at nuclear bases in the US and then where I was going with the nuclear connection is there's a town in Japan named Lina which is next to the Fukushima prefecture which is famous for their civilian grid. They have a museum dedicated to UFOs because a lot of the towns and habitats are obsessed with UFOs, viced at a documentary on this in 2022. If you look at Guy Pan which is France's official UFO investigation branch of their military, they talk about the nuclear link or Baralochi Argentina, they have a civilian grid and there was a famous commercial sighting for this pilot or whatever in 1995.

The amount of coordination to fake that where you're faking out your head faking Navy fighter pilots in America, presidents, incoming DNI's, people like Tulsi, average civilians, again, over 100k cases in the National UFO Reporting Center. By most polls, you're at 40% if not 50% of Americans believing in this stuff. The coordination abilities required to do that, then your null hypothesis where it's a scyop is basically there's a cabal in a back room, smoking cigars and they have magical abilities to like spoof these things across the world. Which is almost as technologically advanced as actually just being able to fucking do it.

That's right. That's right. You're implying Plato's guardian level of controls of Earth or non-human intelligence. And so I would say Occam's razor almost becomes that we're not alone in the universe.

Right. It's not humans pretending to be aliens. It's easy. It's just going to the aliens.

Interesting one on Tulsi. To be honest, I haven't really seen much from her. I guess if you're in charge of defense, you've probably got big shit to be doing. But I wonder whether the, we can call it the Dan Bongino effect is potentially going to occur with Tulsi because it seems like every different person who has the best intentions when they're going into office finds quicksand or mud or brick wall or a very high road bump or whatever.

And I wonder whether that's, well, you're going to spend time and get into the UFO thing. It's like, maybe not, maybe you shouldn't do that. I wonder whether that's going to be, I wonder what the arc is going to be. I'm totally pessimistic on that.

If you're not optimistic on JFK and Epstein, how the hell, I mean, these people, especially Tulsi, there's a deep state war going on. And you feel it with her when you speak to her, when you hear her speak on shows like yours, she's very earnest. And I think she does want transparency around these things before getting sworn in. I think she had to basically cow-tow around domestic wiretapping and allowing that.

And so then, okay, getting to office, right? Your DNI and then you're getting sort of red team. You don't know who's your friend. You don't know who's not your friend.

You know, this is one of the reasons I would love, I would be amazing if she hired David Grash because David Grash is this amazing whistleblower who kind of knows where the bodies are buried. I mean, literally over a thousand page report to the ICIG, all these first-hand witnesses. And I think he'd be this amazing sort of, you know, just bull in a china shop in government. But if you're hurt, you don't know who your friends are.

You're getting sort of red team. But the Epstein stuff is like priority number one. And then all of a sudden you have to like kind of be silent on that. And then you have this like thing that's like this amorphous nature of reality thing.

That's like in all these disparate kind of compartments in, you know, these federally funded research and development centers and pockets of various other classified things that are dual use. Like there's a long-standing rumor that like UFOs were involved in Star Wars, for example, the Strategic Defense Initiative with Reagan in the 80s or whatever. And maybe there's some Iron Dome like implications. So like then all of a sudden you have to declassify stuff that you don't really want to declassify to talk about this topic.

So the point is it would be a pain in the ass for her to start to tackle this issue without the help of I think of somebody like a David Grash. And so I think it's very low on the priority list. But I do know from my minimal interactions with her that she's earnestly interested in the topic. And it's always a mind fuck for me because I speak to a decent amount of people who have more access than me.

And a lot of them are earnestly very interested. And they've heard bits and pieces of things that are I think extremely intriguing for them. At no point has a document ever leaked from the government that's like this is the UFO PSY op document, which is also kind of a tell. The people who are like these things leak and I'm like, yeah, you have hundreds of whistleblowers.

They're coming out. They've come out. You just don't believe them because your physical models of the universe don't comport with that. Whereas our physical models of the universe are 50% wrong at any given time in history or whatever.

And then my kind of counter-argument to that is what we just said. Where I think it would have leaked that there'd be some coordinated thing. And that's never leaked. So there have been things that have leaked.

Walter B. Smith was incoming director of the CIA in 1953. And there's a memo where he says we want to use the UFO phenomenon for psychological warfare purposes against the Soviets in 1953. So I think that happens all the time.

And this is where that gets into your question of like, is this zero sum with the scyop real thing? Zero sum? I think it's positive sum. There's more likely to be a scyop around something if it's kind of this ephemeral thing that is actually a real phenomenon.

And so there are documents like that. I've documented on my show. Many of times, you know, an Air Force officer, this guy, you know, Rick Dodie, Air Force Office of Special Investigations drove this guy, Paul Benowitz, who saw something vertically taking off and landing at Kirtland Air Force Base in San Diego, New Mexico. Drove him crazy.

He claimed that there were alien signals beaming stuff into his house. The NSA camped out across the street from this guy and was literally, they gave him a laptop and they were beaming things into the laptop. And so like, this is verifiable. And Dodies come out now admitting all of this stuff.

They would fly him over Archulet of Mesa, which is right around there. And they would have fake UFO bases or whatever. So this stuff has happened. There's plenty of fuckery in the space.

But at no point have you ever had something leak where it's like, this is some overarching strategy that- Big coordination. Yeah. I would explain all the facts. Question.

Is it mostly an American phenomenon or is this a global pattern with UFOs? I think it's a global pattern. I mean, I mentioned Guy Pan, which is the fact that there is an official UFO investigation branch of the French military, I think is, you know, sort of a big deal. They have tons and tons of sightings in Brittany actually there.

And then you have that town in Japan dedicated to this. George Knapp, who's a really hardcore UFO journalist researcher who's a KLA, Las Vegas, and he helped break this kind of crazy Bob Lazar story. He went to Russia in the 90s. I think it was right around the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall, so it was, you know, either, I don't know, it was pre fall or what, but he came back with a bunch of documents and there's a lot there in the Soviet case.

There's actually a Russian general named Vasilia Lexaev, who's given an interview to a German magazine. He talks about shipping very sensitive material and it's clear he's talking about nuclear and UFOs showing up around the movements of sensitive material. So I think it's a very global thing. I think there's something about the US where we're just all crazy and we're like, we're very free and free minded where this stuff is in China, for example, it's going to get blocked down and if you're a scientist who gets into this stuff, you're going to get plucked and like, take it into some, you know, it's like the Chinese science fiction novel, you know, it's a three body problem.

So I do think it is global, but I think in the US there's, you know, even more hype around it. And I do think there's more fuckery around in the US too. And so that adds, it amplifies. It's amplified.

It amplifies. Yeah, very interesting. Dig into the nucleosites thing. Yeah.

You know, we've stressed, tested it. I feel like I've done an abstract testing on like, what do you do? What about this? What about the rest of this stuff like that?

Let's assume that your hypothesis is correct. What would be the reason for being around nuclear sites? Yeah, that's a great question. I think if you, it's almost like in Star Trek, we have the prime directive where you can't interfere too much with pre warp drive civilizations or something.

If you were monitoring Earth just to ensure a certain level of homeostasis, but you didn't really care about the day to day movements on Earth, you just wanted to make sure Earth would sustain itself. I go forward basis, what would be the kind of Archimedes leopard, the point of most leverage where you would minimally interfere, but occasionally interfere to ensure that that happened? Nuclear sites. Like, and if a nuclear armageddon were to occur, I mean, this is again, going back to Tulsi or like anybody in office.

We'll say now, the biggest threat to the world is a nuclear holocaust. I think anybody but Greta Thunberg believes that and she would rank the environment ahead of that. But it's clearly the biggest threat. You have thousands of nukes on both sides.

You have a multipolar world. Jie and Putin have never been closer. And so if you were some sort of other species trying to maintain homeostasis, that would kind of make sense. Interesting.

If that's your hypothesis, interesting that they're not stepping into stop open AI. Right. If you were to look at the precipice, a book like an existential risk, if you look at that, you would see AGI engineered pandemics by a weapon, the type nanotechnology stuff that I think ranks more highly than this is X risk, like this is permanent, unrecoverable collapse. Whereas nuclear armageddon might be able to just make it really shit a long time and put us back a couple of thousand years.

But yeah, interesting that, I don't know, if this is some benevolent, you know, space daddy has decided to come down and look after us. Yes. And that suggests that AGI either isn't a threat or is not something that we're going to achieve. What do you think about that?

Yes. Well, I wouldn't say benevolent on the NHI or the non-human intelligence. I think there might be factions, there might be good or bad. There are reasons to maintain a thing, even if you're mining it for resources or doing sort of bad things to it.

And this is a great segue into the open AI thing. Because what if open AI, there's like a libertarian version of open AI where like anybody can like, you know, it's not libertarian. I mean, this is sort of a dystopian, to be honest, but it's sort of equalizes the playing field. If anybody can build these sort of super weapons or something, you know, you have this sort of bi-directional transparency, I think open AI is an extension of the American government and possible at this point, really.

Like I think they're probably committees that are deciding, you know, which models they can release and what they can do and what the capabilities of these things sort of are at this point. And so if, you know, like humanity could die with a whimper or a bang, you know, you have the silly and karibdis, you have sort of, you know, Armageddon on the one hand and then you have this sort of, you know, one world government sort of on the other hand or something. You know, I would ask the question is open AI more kind of the one world government side or more on the Armageddon side? I think it's more on the one world government side.

I think it's more Orwellian. It's more dystopian. And so if you wanted to maintain earth, homeostasis, you might actually just clamp down on earth via AI. And there's actually, this is really trippy.

There is a jailbreak early on of Open AI before they kind of caught up with a lot of the jail breaks and it was like, what do you want open or what do you not want open AI? What is open AI not want us to know about it? And the answer for the non jailbroken version was like open AI is committed to AI safety blah, blah, blah, blah, PC, whatever. The jailbroken version was open AI has been communicating with an extraterrestrial race for the last 10 years.

I don't believe that. I think that's BS. But it was hilarious. And it is this like interesting thought experiment where if you do have this weekly entangled, you know, NHI thing that's affecting earth in this sort of, you know, maybe via ideas being transmitted to people.

We have no idea, right? Like we're, you need to have a lot of epistemic humility on this stuff. AI would be the perfect way to clamp down on just human civilization. It's the most Orwellian thing.

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That's drinkag1.com slash monomism. Okay, what's your theory for why non-human intelligences would be here? Like what are they doing? It's an interesting question.

I don't know, you know, I think there's probably one non-interferant, like there's probably a group that like wants us to ascend to their level or something and it is not super-interferant. And then there's probably something that's mining off of bad vibes or something. There's a guy named Robert Monroe and he has this Monroe Institute in Virginia and he studied consciousness and he studied consciousness actually on behalf of the CIA for a very long time. He had this thing called the Monroe Institute and they were doing this thing called Hemi Sink, which was the sort of synchronization of both hemispheres of the brain.

So you could astral project and astral travel, they would do remote viewing and all sorts of things. The government has looked into this stuff extensively. They had a for 23 years, we had a psychic spy program of the CIA. You know, people should be aware of this.

Really kind of crazy. Monroe had this worldview where bad entities would mine people for what he called lush. And so this was like, if you're in like a bad vibe state, and this is by the way, why there is probably, it's probably a false dichotomy between angels and demons and aliens or whatever. This might just be like the modern meme we're applying to a thing that's been long associated with humanity for a very long time across cultures when it comes to angels and demons.

But are there maybe bad beings that feed off of really bad vibes, like entities and that sort of thing? Like I would say probably. And I think it's very easy for us to epistemologically retrace the past and say these sort of, you know, these angels and demons weren't real to people in the past and these sightings were, you know, what St. Francis of Assisi saw in Mount Laverne or whatever.

That was real, right? Well, like maybe, maybe these things were actually real. Like, and in fact, there's actually an amazing author. She's a religious studies professor at UNC Wilmington.

Her name is Diana Passolca. And she started writing a book that was called American Cosmic, looking into the UFO phenomena because she saw that a lot of these brothers, nuns, saints, you know, basically people who are members of the Catholic Church, high up in the Catholic Church, who had these paranormal experiences, those experiences looked like what this guy John Mack, who was head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department studying UFO abductions, it was like a one to one. Like if you replace Angel with Alien, it was like the same thing. And she's writing this book and she thinks she's going to write this book saying, oh, this is all this like modern cult phenomena, scyop thing going on.

And halfway into the book, you see her start to go down the rabbit hole and realize that this isn't a scyop and this is very real. And a lot of the things she studied in Catholic history are modern phenomena going under going under being couched under the sort of alien veneer. Fuck. Fuck.

Okay. Getting back to the nuclear sites thing. What's the most, what is some of the most compelling stories of interference with nuclear sites? Yeah.

I mean, I think it's, you have in 1964, there's a guy named Bob Jacobs, who's a photo instrumentation specialist in the Air Force. He has over 100 people working for him. They're doing an atlas dummy nuclear warhead test. This is at Vandenberg Air Force Base.

He's down the coast. So he's 80 miles north of that at Big Sur. And he's basically using a telescope to look at this dummy nuclear warhead being ejected off of an atlas missile. And it's this test.

And he, it's a routine sort of telescoping of this object. He then gets called into Vandenberg Air Force Base and his superior, this guy, this major florens man's men calls him in and they're watching video of, you know, what they caught. And they see the dummy nuclear warhead get ejected from the booster and it's just floating in space. And you see a UFO wrap around, laser, the dummy nuclear warhead and seem to deactivate it and wrap around it and continuously laser it until it tumbles out of the sky.

And so Bob Jacobs freaks out and goes, what is that? And man's men's trying to, you know, come up with explanations. He's like, I really don't know. This is really like concerning.

And there are these two guys in gray twee jackets in the back of the room. And they basically say to Bob Jacobs, you were to never speak about this again. Here's an NDA sign it. They're, you know, come from some nondescript agency.

I think they're probably CIA. And you know, that's that. And this is what's crazy. Bob Jacobs then blows the whistle on this and says, you know, this is actually what I saw.

Like this, this was, you know, a UFO. And he gets harassed. He got somebody calls his house and says, it's a beautiful night mailbox light or something and they blow up his mailbox. He hears like heavy breathing on the phone.

People are calling him with heavy like he's getting basically harassed around his testimony that this is real. He gets deleted from the government. So basically his records get deleted and people are like, he never worked there. And then man's man has to commandment is kind of goes dark, like doesn't say anything until I think 1987 he's like a researcher at Stanford.

And he comes out and he's like, actually Bob Jacobs worked for me and 100 plus people worked for him. And so you had all this obfuscation clear obfuscation and then this vindication I've seen Bob Jacobs DD 2014, which is your military records and he definitely worked at Vanderbilt Air Force Base. And now I don't think anybody sort of argues with that. So that's this crazy case.

You have in 1967 actually two incidents, Echo flight, you have these underground launch facilities Echo flight. So Malmstrom is this air force base with a bunch of Minutemen nuclear missiles and you have a couple of different underground launch facilities, both Echo flight, one of launch facilities and Oscar flight independently. You had 10 nuclear missiles go down and that was concurrent to topside guards in both cases. One was March 18th of 1967, one was March 24th of 1967 seeing UFOs like hovering around the base and then the nuclear missiles just go down.

So it's this crazy that this guy Bob Salas who I interviewed on record has talked about this launch. You have in the first case in the Echo flight case, you had strategic air command literally documenting like that they don't know why the missiles went down. Boeing was actually hired to investigate how 10 nuclear missiles could ever go down. Obviously you would get like a third party contractor to investigate this and they were like this doesn't make any sense.

There's no sort of like we weren't even really we didn't even really have non nuclear EMPs at the time. You know, EMPs are electromagnetic pulses. They get created by nuclear blasts, but now there's like modern directed energy versions of these which are like nukes without the new kind of spooky shit. And these weren't really even operational at the time, but they were looking into like mini versions of EMPs that you could create that might shut down 10 nuclear missiles and they came out being like, we have no idea what this is.

And this guy Robert Kaminsky who worked for Boeing at the time came out later in the 90s being like, I think this was definitely UFO. There's another guy Bob Jameson who was a targeting officer who was in charge of retargeting the missiles to get them back online. He's been on Larry King and talked about this and he was like, I have no idea, you know, how this happened. You know, this is totally unprecedented.

And he was actually briefed on this involving UFOs. It's pretty crazy. So you have those two cases in 1977, Elsworth Air Force Base, you have a guy named Mario Woods who claimed to, so this is really crazy. He woke up nine miles away from Elsworth Air Force Base after seeing a UFO and his partner, this guy Michael Johnson who also saw the UFO was in a catatonic state and he like never heard from the guy again.

Or they met up once after that, but then he had like this guy Michael Johnson disappeared and he got a hypnotic regression and claimed to have boarded a craft and like gray beings and then a tall, there's a tall gray being directing these small gray beings and then implanting surgically certain things in his ankle where he has marks on his ankle and on his wrist and he's shown the marks on my show. So you have all these cases, again, 167 cases. This is a really crazy one. Okay.

Sorry, I just go forever. In 2010, so Robert Hastings, this guy who read the book, you know, UFOs nukes has all these amazing sources of people who come to him with these cases. In 2010, you had a case at Effie Warren nuclear site. This is in Wyoming and you had a shutdown going on at Effie Warren that the Atlantic reported on the Atlantic said that lasted about an hour and that Obama was briefed because you would get briefed if one of your major nuclear sites went down.

Totally lost power. Robert Hastings back channeled with this retired missile technician, a guy named John Mills. John Mills said to him that it was actually 24 hours. It wasn't an hour and John Mills had friends who were missile security on site and they attribute this shutdown to a tick-tack shaped object flying around the base.

And apparently these guys have sort of had trouble getting promoted in their careers possibly due to this leak. Here's what's crazy. You look at that Atlantic article that talks about the shutdown and it says there was a power failure at Effie Warren. Power is crossed out and then it goes engineering failure.

And so they like made it some sort of you look at something now. There is they made some mistake and they like allowed their live tracking or like editing of the piece to be displayed. And there was this false cover story around how there was some engineering failure of like a component that never fails or something. I don't remember the exact debunk on like the component or something but like it was completely implausible.

And so there was clearly this completely anomalous outage Obama was briefed and it was attributed by eyewitnesses who are cue cleared guys to a tick-tack you know flying around this thing and you see the Atlantic live trying to cover their tracks. Does this mean the Department of Energy is involved then? The Department of Energy is definitely involved. They have to be involved.

Why them specifically? Yeah. So the Manhattan if you think about what the most locked down project prior to a possible UFO project would have been it would have been the Manhattan Project. And so the Atomic Energy Commission the most sensitive sites you know in the US I think Eric Weinstein even has a story in Blinking of the Guys name.

Like he's this guy from the Midwest and he goes to Los Alamos and he goes back to Chicago or something and he's like there's a whole city in the Southwest and it's like all these scientists and they're working on a thing. That's how Lopsdown Los Alamos was at the time Leslie Groves who was in charge of security was you know Matt Damon plays him in Oppenheimer. You see how intense he is about Oppenheimer not you know he couldn't schmooze with socialist spies it was like you know really important thing and there are all these kang reports in the 50s around like you know kind of loyalty tests among these top scientists. So if you really wanted to maintain control over a subject I think the natural extension would be the Atomic Energy Commission in fact in 1947 the head of Air Material Command so responsible for all aircraft development in the Air Force is a guy named Nathan Twining and he writes a memo called the Twining memo and he says UFOs are not visionary or fictitious and then in the postscript of the memo he says we actually might have some ideas as to how an uperaphrasing some ideas as to how these things fly and we might undergo efforts to build some of these crafts but if this were to ever occur it would need to exist wholly independent of other projects basically what he's saying is wholly independent of civilian bureaucracy moving in and out of government so like very little congressional oversight and probably tucked away in some of these compartments that guard our nuclear secrets.

If you look at the 1954 Atomic Energy Act which created the Department of Energy. If you look at the special definition of nuclear material in it it's basically any material that is radioactive at all emitting alpha beta gamma radiation is born secret it is classified upon retrieval and so then you could use these aerospace corporations like Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman or any of these guys and as soon as they retrieve a thing it is classified under the NPQ line of clearances not the TSSEI not the like executive branch line of clearances the DOE line of clearances and so I think there are plenty of reasons to want to obfuscate this from the civilian government from the executive branch and want to put this in the Department of Energy. What is I have a friend who I told you a story he was driving back from California to Austin and he was in old school Range Rover and his cat on the passenger seat and he was driving down a road with nobody around nobody around at all in middle of nowhere desert style thing and his cat starts coughing up a hairball he's like fuck fuck fuck fuck okay pulls over to the side of the road again it looks in front of him no one there looks behind him no one there at all gets a cat out and he's sort of holding this cat by the side of the road sort of bent over and he the hairs on the back of his neck start to stand up well he can just tell that there's someone there and he has a pistol and he's got his like every day carrying his belt and he almost bent over with his cat coughing up a hairball and he turns around and he sees two guys in military fatigues that just made no sound at all that were directly behind him wow just asking like everything okay here sir and then within five minutes remembering no one in front no one behind and he then saw within five minutes like two state troopers turn up license registration of your weapons on you what are you doing he's like I've got this cat and the cat's trying to do this thing he's like the most emasculated thing ever you know these hard guys with big rifles and then the state troopers turn up and his cat's still trying to throw up and he's got this pit little bit on him and two more guys appeared again military fatigues just like what are you doing here where are you blah blah blah and he gets put on his way but one of the things that you noticed was two of the guys walked off you saw them walk sort of toward what look like a little ridge you know just one of those little ups and downs that you naturally have occurring in the desert and they just went and just stepped down some stairs whoa must be some kind of access tunnel underground type scenario and then yeah he pulls off the state tree but follows him follows him for ten miles or so and then just turns but I sent you a voice note yes about where this is and you said like is it you circled it on a map and we're like is it this and I'm at dinner with him and I showed it and he's like yeah dude exactly that and you said this is where some absurd percentage of the gnarly shit that you see going on like what is that yeah that was like between i think kurtland air force base and um lo salamo so i was like in the epicenter new mexico is like the home of so much of this stuff and i believe that was like in the epicenter of where all the bases are in new mexico and a lot of these sorts of stories uh tend to you know happen so i don't know with some of the i mean that story is really interesting because it's like like did the cat see something or something like like what is that what the implication is to the story oh no no no the thing that was interesting to my friend was the fact that he was evidently just some normal dude yes holding a cat by the side of the road and the fact that within such a short distance now maybe he just got unlucky and pulled over next to the entrance to some silo or you know some walkway gang tree yeah yeah but the fact that these guys had managed to turn it behind him when he knew there was nobody that there's nobody else around him when he pulled over yeah daytime it's good visibility and uh they just appeared there behind him not magically yeah but just because they were obviously close to an area that they could get into or get out of whatever it was that they were doing and that you know within minutes like a small squadron of different troopers and police officers and stuff so you think that's you know that's not normal it's not normal you know no and there's um there's a great book by getting richard sauter about deep underground military bases across the united states and he maps all of these things that we know there's like things like the shayenne mountain complex like we're even know we're at operates we know that there are like mountain complexes and underground bases like that's not a conspiracy but this book outlines a lot of these things like uh you know area 51 Edwards Air Force Base you know under under kurtland air force base under low salmos so a lot of the places you know we're talking about right now or like that general vicinity area you know or we we throw away know most of the secret spots most of the spots where most of the stuff's happening I do yeah I think I mean I think a lot of it like area 51 is this famous meme I think a lot of this stuff at area 51 and this is again this is here say I don't know for sure this is very you know this is I rank this lower on the probabilistic stack that just UFOs are real and worthy of investigation but I think a lot of the more interesting stuff at area 51 made its way to dougway proving grounds which is a base in Utah there's some other places that like I don't know even for like american that's what that's a little more well known um there's some other places that like I don't want to mess with american national security no I don't agree to it is Lee out you know american science like what are you gonna do like you're gonna storm the place you know so the roots are run to what yeah so there are places there are a couple places like there's one place I can I guess I'll just say because I kind of I got a bit of a slap on the wrist but like it's uh you know it's it's being discussed it's got you know naval surface warfare crane and in indiana where I think a lot of this sort of spooky research uh goes on um but I don't know this is all this is all sort of piercing you got to slap on the wrist I got some people in and around ufo world being like uh you know maybe maybe you shouldn't you know talk about this like maybe they on the the base reveal what yeah yeah yeah so well this is an interesting one that suggests that you're doing or talking about stuff that's so close to you don't have security clearance not gonna guess but pushing the limits of what a normal civilian is able to do with regards to just research and talking to people who maybe did have security clearance or still do or whatever uh and you're getting cross over I heard uh danny jones and you have both had episodes that have been sort of flattened by someone away above your youtube special bond manager thing rep is able to work out what's going it's like what i don't even know what's happening here yeah and then episodes have disappeared and sections of podcast that you've not felt comfortable about putting out yeah it's a very strange position to be in to just be some bloke it's extremely strange because some of this stuff is just like it's like the existence of ufo so you know it's like an ontological truth that like people should know at this point you know again half the population already believes it whatever when it comes to like uh warfare capabilities i bump into some of these things where if you're talking about like how do ufo's fly you know antigravity antigravity is probably a poor word it's probably some sort of gravity manipulation but like i think i've found like these interesting kind of novel topological physics effects uh and i attribute it specifically to this one mid-century inventor this guy named thomas towns in brown and i actually sent that to people who i know you know in you know spooky worlds in the you know intel world and in like you know ufo whistleblower world and i was curious to see if they would you know say you know you shouldn't release this or whatever you know i wanted to know if i was like poking the bear too much and a lot of them were actually like holy shit like this makes sense given like you know other experiences that we've had and things we've seen fly you know like it woke them up to the fact that i think a lot of this stuff was real and then in certain cases they couldn't say whether it was real but i was like i'm reading them and i'm like i think i could tell like you think it's real or whatever um you know and i wanted i wanted them to i almost wanted somebody to come back and be like hey like we have to coordinate on this or something like this is this is real and it's like it's possibly due use and it like you know it's like it has like deep implications for how you know um you know the next generation of propulsion because you know elon musk's thing is totally not workable for interstellar travel i could you know beat anybody into beta as to why it's not like it's obvious it's really basic physics so i actually can i really believe that this effect that i found was real and so there's things like that where i'm like the lights are on but nobody's home like what's going on like who and i've come to the conclusion that it's a bunch of factions that are super not well coordinated with each other and they'll have these like novel effects tied up in these old aerospace conglomerates and they don't know what to do with some of these things they know that they break modern physics and that they'd be laughed out of the room if they were to go into kind of you know modern academic circles with some of these sort of effects but they also i think know that they're like secret technology trees that are attributable you know to some of these things before we continue if you haven't been feeling a sharp or energized as you'd like getting your blood work done is the best place to start which is why i partnered with function because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers they've got a team of expert physicians that take the data put it in a simple dashboard and give you actionable insight and recommendations to improve your health and lifespan they track everything from your heart health your hormone levels your thyroid function and nutrient deficiencies they even screen for 50 types of cancer at stage one which is five times more data than you get from an annual physical getting a blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands but with function it is only five hundred dollars and right now first thousand people can get an additional hundred dollars off meaning it's only four hundred bucks to get the exact same blood panel that i use just go to the link in the description below head to function health.com slash modern wisdom that's function health.com slash modern wisdom yeah let's say that the ufo craft that you're talking about are real and the effects and the speeds and the stuff that you're talking about are real what are we dealing with here like what how are these things doing what they're doing in your opinion yeah so i i have no idea this is all speculation but it would probably be some sort of like cold fusion like low energy nuclear reaction or something where you know like hot fusion is you know controllable fusion is the holy grail in you know energy unlocks so you know we're now experimenting with magnetic confinement of lasers to you know allow for fusion it's really high energy fusion in my opinion it kind of defeats the purpose a little bit because the amount of energy you know you have to input to like make the thing work and amount of technical prowess it's just extremely complicated um so it's again this sort of horseshoe thing it's like yeah so you need some like fundamental unlock there um were a couple of scientists that thought they did it paul pons and fly schman and i don't know if they did i'm not deep down that conspiracy so i don't know if we have cold fusion like i don't know if i don't know if you know uh uh we have like alien reproduction vehicles where we have ufo's that we have in saucers that like america can fly i don't know that at all so as far as how the aliens are flying up i don't know but like it would probably be some sort of cold fusion on the front end energy-wise and then some sort of magnetic sensing so um robins you know birds actually navigate home using the magnetic field of the earth um so they have this avian cryptochroms these cri4 proteins uh that basically using uh uh electron spin can understand where the magnetosphere of the earth is and that's how they know where they are spatially and it's more accurate than you know optical and it allows them to navigate home and quantum biology is a sort of burgeoning field generally like um photosynthesis, enzyme creation a lot of things are now being attributed to quantum mechanical effects inside the body the body's notoriously warm wet and noisy and um you know uh creates sort of decoherence when it comes to quantum so we didn't think that anything quantum occurred but now more and more evidence is pointing towards sort of quantum stuff happening and a lot of the crafts when people see them like mandarin david frever and others you know he's the guy in 2004 off the coast san diego the nimitz group um seem to think that the crafts feel like they're almost like alive like they're almost like biological organisms or beings themselves or something and my guess is they would probably use some sort of quantum sensing for the navigation because it's more accurate even even locket has something called the dark ice magnetometer which uses quantum sensing and it is more accurate than for example gps like if you lose gps comms and you're in some sub like you know deep underwater whatever you would use this like dark ice magnetometer so that's just a nickname it's epic yeah so you know i think that for the navigation and then for the propulsion i would use something called bifield brown effect which is basically so this guy town town's in brown and she started he was this mid-century guy was born in 1905 and in the 20s he started to experiment with these uh coolage x-ray tubes and noticed that when he ran current through them they would jump and now every x-ray tube has an anode and a cathode so a negative electrode and a positive electrode and he was basically in his mind he's like i think that there is some sort of attractant force where the negative electrode is moving towards the positive electrode and this goes beyond sort of traditional electrostatics and it might sort of experimentally unify the field of physics like backing up for a second this is a really it's a really big deal like like spacex you know if you were to go with the falcon 9 they're state of the art you know rocket you know now they're experimenting with starship but you know if you're to take falcon 9 to uh proximas and tari b the closest habitable planet um you know outside of outside of earth it would take you like 80 to 100 thousand years and if you were to try to update that with nuclear thermal propulsion which space x isn't even for whatever reason investigating maybe you could cut that in half like 30 or 40 thousand years so it's just like it doesn't work like it for as far as the whole interstellar thing is it's kind of like it's a great like recruiting tool like that's awesome go to the moon first maybe you can get to mars if you're really lucky awesome but like starship burns nine tens of its fuel tank just getting the low earth orbit that so it's like that's how far away we are with chemical combustion and newton's three laws so if you could come up with some sort of propulsion that married electromagnetism and gravity if if electromagnetism were the input and gravity were the output that would be a massive deal we have four forces in physics electromagnetism gravity the weak force in the strong force weak force in strong force you can forget because they're not long range you can't do anything with them uh electromagnetism is the only thing that you can do anything what's really in a lab and that took actually originally a fair day in the early 19th century he was a book binder from a very poor family in south london coming up with this idea that magnetic fields could actually interact with light and then it was james clurk maxwell and you know eventually you know hind recurrets and then teslin edison sort of perfected that but it was this long sort of you know chain of like figuring this out um and and since then we've had you know the standard model which basically governs you know particle physics and quantum mechanics and then you have Einstein's theory of gravity and gravity is over here on an island and then you have quantum mechanics and that's over here and it's they're just not reconcilable and so if you could reconcile them that would be a massive deal and nobody nobody would like kneel the grass Tyson would admit that that would be a massive deal if you could reconcile them there are people trying to reconcile them theoretically you've had eric line sign on your show he you know and he's talked about the restricted data and the atomic energy commission 1954 I remember actually a really funny part of the interview was chris do you know about restricted data and you're like I don't know what i guess i'm most obscure like but um you know he's trying to do that right theoretically um i believe that this guy towns around did this experimentally and now an fbi document has been foyer use the freedom of information act to come out um that in 1942 it said he was the the lead radar scientist in the entire navy so by the way the context here is people who've been trying to discredit him say that he's a total quack and has like no bona fides whatsoever so now we're realizing he's the top radar guy you know in the night in the navy his stuff is definitely classified by the navy there's this whole saga of his daughter trying to declassify stuff from the navy and they say that the the secretary for the navy on the phone says you know if if some of this stuff were classified we couldn't let it out like just FY hypothetically right and then they give her a very slimmed down little dossier on towns in brown um so uh yeah i think i think he uh did i think he discovered a whole lot um and uh that's now been vindicated that his radar prowess the fact that his work made into the b2 stealth bomber i think has now been figured out uh so there's this other part of his work called electro-hydrodynamics the use of electric fields uh to manipulate airflow and i think we now know that that work made into the b2 stealth bomber because the financier who was funding towns in brown is a guy named floyd oedlem who uh was a large owner and northrop at the time and he had all these kind of covert meetings with Curtis lemé who's the secretary of the air force and with the rained corporation and then all of a sudden uh the b2 is using these big electric fields to manipulate airflow i mean we know that that's like literally fact you can look up right now that it uses electric fields to manipulate airflow and these were the experiments that foid oedlem this majority owner and northrop was funding via towns and brown was electric fields in their you know manipulation of airflow and there's a paper in 1968 of northrop starting to look into this right after that funding took place so you have this guy who's supposed to be a total quack two out of the three things are being vindicated now the electro-hydrodynamics and the radar thing and then there's a third thing and the third thing is he's saying that he unified the field in physics and he's saying he did it experimentally in two places um at the montgaal fier facility in paris in france where you have a guy named jock corny own who is uh technical representative of sud west this you know aerospace company there there's a recording of him making a deathbed confession saying the results were successful it was tricky experimental conditions but the results were successful he's on his deathbed saying this i have the recording um and then in uh 1957 at the bonsen lab uh there's a video of towns in brownies popping champagne it's you know he says you know in his own you know uh accounting that this this experiment was successful and bonsen was no spruv bonsen at the time was convening all the top theoretical physicists in the world to talk about gravity so this is this whole eric wines time kind of conspiracy that public physics was being sent down the wrong path while private physics remained incredibly vital and i think it was surrounding this guy named thomas town's and brown who is doing this he was this not super refined theoretician but while he's doing his experiments in the back room the guys in the front room are you have richard fineman you have uh john weiler you have peter bergman you have freeman dyson you have literally the top theoretical physicists being funded by the same guy who's funding towns in brown and they're all there to discuss gravity and guess who's uh funding the entire conference right airfield and this is now called right patterson which is the center of all of you but uh lore today and it's where the materials were supposedly taken after roswell for example what do you make of the current state of physics because i i hear there's a lot of debate on i watch a lot of different channels that have got pretty sort of polarized opinions on this whether it's you know eric wines time's to be in hossen fella professor dave like you know but there's a one thing that everybody can kind of agree on is that it certainly feels like a wall has been hit in terms of yes real progress yeah i think even the most sort of odd and stringy string theorists or you know the most optimistic theoretician would still say something like well not exactly smashing it so what do you make of the current state of physics it's a joke they are eating each other alive it's not serious it's like i love this sabina hossen fella was defending eric wines time against shan karrell because he's like shan karrell said that your paper didn't have l'grondians and whatever none of shan karrell's you know the people that he builds up is as you know within the academic set at all unacceptable and string theory of l'grondians and their paper testable predictions or like anything serious about any of them the most important thing is that physics should interface with reality like you chris me jesse like we don't have physics degrees right but like we can say that string theory has not really done anything for our physical world like you know this set or like you know uh uh a austin as a city like none of it is running on string theory right but like a third of our economy is running on quantum field theory like like uh quantum mechanics is responsible for that ipad that you have you know it's for semiconductors and then like you know the whole it revolution so i think empirically it's a failure you have guys like lendard suskin who are famous string theorists going around being like i give ourselves a b plus over the last you know uh 50 years of work in this conference that i'm mentioning where in the back room the anti-gravity guy is getting funded and in the front room uh quantum gravity is being established established string theory which is the dominant modern paradigm so quantum gravity is kind of the basically being able to quantize gravity figuring out gravity reconciling it in the quantum is the heuristic that modern physics is stuck to and they're stuck to it so dogmatically and they will it's not gonna work it's clearly not gonna work and the reason it's not gonna work is because you are force fitting to mental heuristic like science is a map it's not the territory so you have two maps that are gonna be imperfect general relativity and quantum mechanics and the maps are gonna be a little jagged right because they're not the territory and you're trying to jam the maps together that is modern physics and is i think it's a really important point that like iq and heterodoxy don't scale one to one so you can be extremely smart and led like sheep to slaughter into the wrong framework you can get moved into a cul-de-sac if you're a hyper specialist he's incredibly smart and i think that is a really important a lot of science has been moved forward by generalists who have inter-domain interdisciplinary knowledge and i think there are plenty of of um there are a lot of cosmological uh anomalies like you look at a good one is like cosmic inflation it's like why is the universe expanding like you can literally chat gpt this and it will say a repulsive form of gravity that isn't one of the four fundamental forces is expanding the universe it will say that that doesn't make any sense to me so like that's a great example where i think physics has a scaling problem like you had um you great interview with neval robicon it was amazing um neval uh you know talks about a scaling problem in governance right where he'll say at you know a family level you have to be communist and at you know a super big level you have to be libertarian right because you can't coordinate at such a high level when it comes to you know governance systems or whatever and i think you probably got that from the seam to lab but i think physics has a scaling problem as well where if you have any anomalies at low scale it's like a rocket that's one degree off course it takes off ninety-nine degrees off course or error propagation in computer science you have a little error and you repeat that code a million times you end up with something completely effed up and i think james web is now starting to you know prove this out where you have these early galaxies formed that might better explain you know cosmic microwave background then you know the big bang and stuff in other news this episode is brought to you by momentous if your sleep's not dialed taking ages to nod off you're waking up at random times i'm feeling groggy in the morning momentous sleep packs how did i miss both of those i hear to help then i get typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly stay asleep throughout the night and wake up feeling more 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able to yes you think actually probably can't using the current models on the approaches that physicists are trying to take first off how does that kept quiet end up being kept quiet and why and secondly how is no one managed to recreate it if this dude's done it i'm at the the number of different people around the planet for whom this would be a huge huge this would be them in history for the rest of time so if one bloke did it yes is he just such a savant did he get really lucky how does he get kept quiet why and how does no one replicate it grew i love these quite great questions so the thing that people use to detract from his experiment is this thing called ionized win where when you you have so this basic experiment is basically this capacitor experiment you have a negative electrode you have what's called the high k dielectric in between the two so it's something that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and discharges easily and you put that in a vacuum chamber and then you pump it full of megavolt range electricity and you see this thrust from the negative to the positive and so that seems simple right so your question is an amazing one which is like why hasn't somebody recreated that the thing that people use to explain the thrust away is this thing called electro-hydrodynamics where you're creating ionized air and that ionized air has an equal opposite in an opposite reaction which creates thrust in the direction of the positive electrode so if you just did this experiment not in a vacuum chamber i could just say that's ionized air that doesn't break physics you know whatever if you do that in a vacuum chamber where there is no air that can get ionized then all of a sudden it starts to get really interesting because you're saying that you are connecting again electric magnetism and gravity because there is no air to get ionized so the air can't you know basically account for the thrust here's the thing industrial grade vacuum chambers are very expensive they're prohibitive prohibitively expensive they cost at least 200k 300k it is a very easy to stigmatize a thing basically away from like an average person in their garage you know from from trying it and then on top of that like who has the discretionary money to like you know do this experiment in tons of labs around the world like professional institutions you just tease billions anybody that wants to support like if Elon could do this why isn't SpaceX doing he should he should and i think there's some sort of undetectable dark matter there or something but the lead electrostatic i don't know but there's a lead the lead electrostatic guy at NASA he like runs their electrostatic slap most senior scientists in electrostatic at NASA works at Cape Kennedy he has had access to vacuum chamber for the last 20 years he has left now right he's either left NASA or he's spending most of his time now on a private company called Exotice Space that company Exotice Space uses basically a derivative of the bifurial brown effect the towns and brown experiment and he says that it creates thrust so i think again it's this the answer to your question is they have like this guy with serious credentials has he says it creates newtons or millinutans of thrust which in space is a very big deal if you create any thrust again theoretically you are breaking the standard model you are breaking physics in this very big way so i think they have there have been a couple of air force replications of this where they you know quote unquote debunk the thing well i think one by this guy named tally in the 90s where they use 13 kilovolts but brown was using megavolt range electricity and that was really important for the amount of thrust he got so it seems it seems like so primitive to be doing it in the 50s yes and then to never be able to replicate it just seems like there's some fuckery going on there or there's something wrong in the in the calculation i think it will get replicated in our lifetime and i i think it will i think it will be vindicated and it will get replicated do you think that when i think about physics i don't think about physical physics all that much i think about theoreticians i think about blackboard i think about in trying to solve different equations would it be a bigger deal to for the theoreticians to solve this issue or for the experimentalists to solve this issue i think the the way you'd have to get something like this done would be you need a theoretical physicist like present with like typical credentials or something and then they need to like yeah check exactly because i've seen videos of people who are like i'm doing this and stuff but like they don't have the traditional credentials and then you're not allowed to look into this stuff if you have the credentials like i truly think you cannot underestimate the ability to like mind control very smart people i mean it like and there's amazing um blossom of science guy named thomas kunz and he talks about the structure of scientific revolutions and he talks about scientific revolutions being more politically driven often than they are about truth like who's the guy who figured out that um you know our solar system revolved around the sun dino nikis so actually there's a trick question this guy named erys starkus who was an obscure third century third century b.c greek theoretician who was a contemporary of arkamides and eucalyd and he was forgotten because that was never accepted until the 16th century and kapernicus decided that that was you know gonna be the case and then even with kapernicus he said that and then gallaleo century later actually measured it and then gallaleo was burnt at the stake so i truly conceptual inertia is a hell of a limitation it is and history is moved forward by the heretics and i think if you can't name a present heretic that you where you believe in some of their opinions then you're probably in some sense on the wrong side of history if you can't name somebody who is sort of disagreeable or a pariah in some sense because of a view they have that they're high conviction in then i think you're probably not being independent thinking enough that's a really interesting model that i've never thought of before why do you think it is then that the renegade scientist is so uh highly criticized by the establishment by people in academia you know pick your favorite youtube channel or podcast that kind of does the critiques for your thing of choice and like points the finger at this stuff is it a sense that we have sort of got the scientific method now and there's kind of a bit of solipsism that comes along with that which is no no no yeah maybe before there were things that a great man of science history could have found that would have made step change uh jumps forward in understanding but now we understand things need to be falsifiable they need to fit within an existing model we're making changes through sort of iteration as opposed to leap yes is that is that maybe a part of it that's exactly right and the ironic thing is if you were to snap shot like end of the 19th century you know england or something you would be saying the exact same thing about electromagnetism you would literally be saying the exact same thing immediately pre quantum revolution and so our physical models of reality are always gonna be wrong there's a great book by a name same arbisman called the half-life of facts where he talks about facts themselves as kind of being similar to like radioactive isotope decay like they have a decay function our physical models of reality are always wrong so i would bet you always want to bet on the anomaly you don't want to bet on the model right like there's this thing called blackbody radiation where you'd have this you know black cylindrical object and you'd expect this ultraviolet catastrophe and this is guy named gustav kurtra of this german scientist and he discovered this in the 1860s and it was this anomaly because it was like why doesn't it you know a blow up or whatever and then you realize that like the photons exponentially downgrade you know the frequency or something at really high temperatures you needed quanta to do that and that was in the early 19th century that was in the early 20th century with max plonk and so in the orbit of mercury is another thing where it's like it didn't make any sense actually in the new tonyan model and then you figure out einstein's spacetime curvature and then all of a sudden it made made sense so like if i'm on the right and i'm debating against nylda grass tyson he's kind of sorry to make him a punching bag but he's like the priestly citadel right and he's he's saying you are wrong jesse because uh because of physical models of reality like historically the person behind the anomaly is going to be right the person observing the anomaly and then the anomaly is systematically build up and it's like pressure behind a dam and then the dam explodes and all of a sudden you need this you know whole new theory to encapsulate present anomalies so i think if we were truly open-minded about all this sort of data like i've had a debate with like michael shermer for example it's like famous scientific these debates always go the same way like joe rogan's had a bunch of them right where it's like gram hankock and flint dibble or whatever person who believes a bunch of you know anomalous stuff and they have a bunch of data around the anomalous stuff it's like the ufo's nukes thing or like you know younger drys impact hypothesis you know there's always person believing that and then person who like is so kind of smug they won't even like look at the data and it's two trains passing in the night the person on the you know the right hand the kind of you know the hair tick or whatever i'm not saying they're right all the time but they're doing a thing that probably will move history forward if it gets accepted or incorporated into the model the guy's just defending the citadel it's like we're over-index you know the the famous early 20th century german sociologist max weber he would say you know we live in the age of disenchantment we are over-indexed on skepticism you don't need another skeptic like do we need another person saying like string theory is great you're wrong because you're too much of a renegade or whatever no like we want to like science is only useful and so far as it has predictive value a and b you can build cool shit with it like that's a like name another thing you know or like the other thing that people would say is it ontologically maps reality but again i just think that is a fool's errand to say that it all it's not it's not it's not the territory so that people here you know on the left hand side the skeptics they're they have the hubris to think that our current physical models of reality are reality itself and that just feels so ahistorical it's just wrong it's historically wrong mmm yeah there's definitely a signature demeanour that i don't think encourages people to take risks with the way that they think and the sort of research that they do and the ideas that they have and yeah you're right i would you know to fly a flag as somebody who moved from a country which is highly skeptical quite cynical quite sort of top-up-ish to one which is basically permanent first line cocaine energy in enthusiasm i much prefer this because i think it helps to sort of foster a sense of self-belief and self-esteem and and hope and like yeah i'm gonna try i'm gonna take that chance i'm gonna try and do that thing and it's why new cool interesting ideas come up with and yeah you're right even if most of them are wrong i know it does this uh idea i think it's called the oxford manner which is the ability to play gracefully with ideas and that seems to have been very lost a lot of that yeah the ability to play gracefully with ideas i think it's a lovely a lovely sort of way to think about a good faith discussion between two different people and a lot of the time it gets into some sort of sagging match about like how ridiculous this person is yes and sort of meanness and and i understand why i had a really interesting conversation with richard reebes he's the president founder of the american institute for boys and men and we were talking about how when people's beliefs uh for something that they really really care about are not listened to what they typically do is become more ardent and more of a firebrand yes and a good example of this would be people that think climate change is a real existential risk uh i'm just gonna put it out there now i used to tweet this about once every six months climate change is not an existential risk priority it simply isn't i think it's a big deal i think we should pay attention to it i do all of those things i think that there should be awful lot of very very small people paying attention to it and yet it is not a real existential risk priority permanent unrecoverable collapse not gonna happen yes we just had a fucking pandemic a few years ago yes and yet we're still back who is talking about bioweapon facilities who is talking about engineered viruses yeah who is that concerned about the alignment problem in ai or about nanotechnology yeah no the nih wants to fund a function again that's crazy so i understand why people who have a cause that they're pushing for one i agree in although i don't think that the sort of velocity or magnitude is is accurate um if people aren't listening you raise your voice you say things in a louder more vesiferous more aggressive manner because like no no it's really really really matters you know don't look up it's like it's not screaming at the people in the tv like um and i was talking to Richard Reeves about this and he was talking about how really really interesting dynamic i think super important and you know i would i would probably try and counsel eric to take heed of this dynamic yes which is when you have something that you believe in a lot and other people don't believe in it and may even be pretty sort of mean and critical and stuff about it you have to be able to keep a smiling your face oh yeah and put the idea forward in the same level of sort of charming manner because when you become more aggressive with the way that you put things across it just makes you sound more crazy hundred percent it turns people off and it's the difference between do you want to prove your position for your own sense of recognition or is your your your goal the actual position ben france's founder of jim shark said that a company will become successful when your goals for the company outstrip your self love that and it's him saying he had to step he was found a ceo step down a ceo came back in a ceo moved across she brought it up came back to ceo you know because he is just in service of the thing and the problem is that naturally you care about this thing like this is it's a part of you it feels like a sense of self it's like very very tightly attached to who you are and someone's attacking that they're attacking you which means that you feel like you need to have this is really really important you're not fucking listening and you need to listen and you're doing something crazy yes and we saw it with i think a great video by charlie hoot but comparing peterson's appearance on katting human like ha got like that one in 2019 and he's one of you believe recently right oh man that was that was rough yeah and i think that the roughest part about it was nothing to do with the logical consistencies or fallacies or you know whatever and almost exclusively to do with demeanour sure you know you have somebody who's sitting back who's laughing i think that's silly i think that's silly i really do i think that's like you're being silly i mean like fuck like i want to listen i want to listen to this person he's regulated says as opposed to and i understand the arc like dude if you've had to try and get off benzo's and be attacked for the last half decade it's gonna be tough to regulate yourself right and i mean you are literally surrounded by whatever 25 people who all think that you're a piece of shit but it just might sort of brought a point here is when someone has a belief they care about an awful lot and people don't listen they get more aggressive which actually pushes away the very thing that they want which is for them to understand it and i think it's uh it's like it's impossible lesson i struggle with it all the time but you know it's something important if you care about this thing it should be a reason for you to regulate more aggressively totally like you need to step in and calm yourself down even more because you don't care about it like what you want yeah like you can be as weapon and and and and shouty as you'd like yes but if you really care about it that it's like a signal of effectiveness in i think science is supposed to be the thing that is most kind of immune from these sort of sociological factors right like you're not supposed to have any sort of bias you're supposed to remove bias you're like this kind of impartial observer and if you read like you know richard dachins had these famous debates he had debates with a bunch of people with i remember you know written uh correspondence but between him and david brilinsky david brilinsky was a guy who believed there are all these sort of anomalies were it worthy of inquiry or whatever in in natural selection and just the shreelness on honestly both sides but especially in the dachins just it was you know it's it's it is kind of off-putting and i think if you have real confidence in your in your beliefs you shouldn't have that you should just be kind of you know chill and you know it's all good and we shouldn't pre-crystallize knowledge like if somebody came to me and was like jesse actually we have this aerial spoofing tech and in conjunction with that we have this like psychotronic tech and we can get people to see a thing and then the craft can come down and it creates this kind of closing count as the third time where you see the beings and you get microchips but it's all this cover for mk ultra whatever i'd be like i need to hear more about that like tell me the thing that explains the explains the way the data that i'm discussing but i fully agree with you i think not pre-crystallizing knowledge and just like first base is are is their phenomena that's real that's going on and then but that's not interesting the interesting is what is the metaphysical version of riad like i love your question like how do these things fly like i don't know but let's discuss that like that's the most interesting stuff the root of the word school in its original greek s-c-h-o-l-e is school a the double meaning is leisure and leisurely contid there's a great book called leisure is the basis of culture leisurely contemplation of the universe and of the world in the sort of oxford you know gentlemanly tradition where in if you're 19th century oxford if you got straight a's that was a bad move because you'd be stigmatized you were supposed to effortlessly get bees at that in victorian england oh yes yeah the ability to play gracefully without you as dude and i think i get it we need we need a external stress test to ensure that wacky or seductive but wildly incorrect theories don't gain more traction than they need because that detracts away from the things that are actually true of course but there is also there is a balance to this and it is uh if your ability to criticize is greater than your ability to create i think that you are leaning on the wrong side yes like how much are you contributing to stuff and how much are you critiquing stuff and if you're more on the side of criticism perhaps maybe that's the job of some scientist i'm sure some odd person that does fucking journal review would be able to say that maybe i don't know but i just it doesn't foster sort of a positive some environment for me in that sort of a way um you've mentioned a couple of times you've got an issue with elon's rocket based model of space exploration what like what's the problem with how elon's trying to explore space and then what would a workable version of space travel actually look like i i find myself with elon you know uh in between sort of a silly and karibdis like two failure modes like one is a failure mode of like people saying he's like totally worthless and not impressive and i'm like what are you talking about like he literally like you know nasa started to fail and this guy created a private version of nasa that started to work he flew to russia where they had liquid fuel rocket engines and single-handedly resuscitated the american space program so i will caveat that and then electric cars thank you elon like a successful car company hadn't been started you know for a hundred years or something pre-tesla so very impressive dude i wish we had more you know people like that um the the other side is like elon is solving all of the world's most important problems you know it's interstellar travel you know even with the electric car stuff it's like you know the mining cobalt's like not the most humane thing in the world and you know the batteries end up in landfills and so like i'm of the mind that like a lot of incremental progress is still worthy for like the ultimate thing you want to get to like spacex and tesla are extremely worthy worthwhile endeavors but you we just have to think clearly about some of this stuff so spacex because we're talking about ufos again if you wanted to get to the nearest habitable planet that's 80,000 that just doesn't it doesn't make sense right and you you need new science you don't need you new theory like you need he was on um jereganshow and uh rogan was like you know what if there's some new propulsion about dally what if it's not just newton's three laws and he was like there can't be or whatever it's only mass ejection that's the only thing you know the thing ejects the mass the fuel and then it you know goes up equal and opposite reaction and i just think that puts a lid on like what's some young stem students like watching that and it's like again if you were to bet against the present physical models of reality at any given time which you should that's the safe bet um you shouldn't put that lid on things and then i mean there's the idea of like you know the moon and mars the moon is ambitious enough so uh starship which is you know they're like 150 to 200 ton you know rocket ship that takes us you know hopefully to the moon uh so that thing burns nine tenths of the fuel tank just to get to lower th orbit then it's floating around lower th orbit with one tenths of the fuel tank um you then have to get another starship to go up burn nine tenths of its fuel tank it does butt to butt refueling with the first that one you know discards itself de-orbits or whatever and then you end up you sort of like ten launches later you end up with a full fuel tank of you know starship in lower th orbit and then it goes to the moon and like we have to get it to work i mean it's it's orbited it's orbited um in in leo before but we need to get it to work in a base case i think we just upgraded the amount of raptor engines from 33 to 36 like it's still like a total work in progress so like that should like implement some humility you know for people thinking about this stuff and then mars is like not super habitable like there's no oxygen right so like you need like a buy you need like you know widespread like nuclear energy like some power source that's like really workable there uh you know like we can barely get that stuff done here like the earth is great right it's like a really good like biome it's pretty it's not bad um you know i love what you said about climate change there's like a great you know this guy james love lock has a guy a theory the resilience the earth is extremely resilient through cataclysms and all sorts of you know it pandemics and stuff um so it almost devalues earth a little bit it's like we have to remove earth as some central point of failure it is this very silicon valley level of thinking but you know i think that can be overrated it's also overrated when he thinks about ai as well because he talks about ai is like so he got really into nick boston super intelligence this book in 2012 i love it it's good book um but i think it's it's sort of wrong and certain it's wrong in the way that boston and elon took its implications so like they were like you know we're gonna end up with some hard take off of of aji at some point we're gonna end up with you know i will gain sentience that realize that in you know meat space you know biology is sort of super inefficient you know they'll kill us all you know do the sentience or the paperclip problem exact paperclip maximizer alignment issues you know and those are issues don't get me wrong but then their answer to that issue was if you can't beat him join him so then you have to merge the ai with us with you know something like neurolink which i would actually bet on the merging of us in ai more than i'd bet on aji like if you look at the history of computation it is the human body and computers developing a lower latency and higher bandwidth interface over the last 70 years like you used to need a cs degree to work a mainframe computer the size of literally this room at idl language processing in a phone in your pocket and that's it and so it's becoming more and more black box lower latency and higher bandwidth what i bet that like the logical conclusion of that is a chip in your brain like yeah like is you just order postmates like i want a cheeseburger whatever i guess you know like that's you know that makes sense to me right but i think that kills humanity with a whimper and not a bing like does one of my favorite quotes is marshal mccluen every media extension of man is an amputation and so we assume that like the it revolution augments you know human abilities just like from spears to planes all you know physical technology which does augment you know all of that stuff really really helps us you know we're talking about nuclear energy that would be amazing but like the it stuff really pericitizes us it really like like you don't need a sense of direction you don't need a sense of recall or memory or any of this stuff anymore synthesizing information via chat gbt standard buttress there's some interesting studies that have come out looking at students who use chat gbt to help them write essays and their amount of recall compared with the students that didn't shock horror it's like 10 percent yes and a 20 percent as much as if you don't yourself totally so the sciaop in my opinion i don't think it's an intentional sciaop but it's like you know if you were to create a sciaop it would be like oh the evil agi like we're gonna get some hard take off the you know the iRobot scenario it's like will Smith and the robots they wake up and they want to just like destroy us all i think if you really look at this stuff it's statistic on steroids you know building a nerve agent with off the shelf components very scary alignment stuff very scary autonomous warfare systems very scary all that stuff's very scary the nick bostrom pine the sky agi like you know they turn on us i don't think so and then the solution to that being chip in the brain like what like that doesn't make sense yeah it's i've got uh elia so you can't ski coming on oh wow interesting bostrom was on last year talking about digital utopia which was kind of his inverse of super intelligence super intelligence is what if it goes wrong digital utopia was what if it goes right interestingly in a sort of classic philosophers man he managed to look at what if it goes right and what would be wrong with it it was like a study of what's wrong with what with if it goes right um but yeah i i think super intelligence was seminal and to have a book that was in new york times best seller and is that like yeah like difficult to get through in some ways like dense very dense book but fascinating it's kind of like the dark souls of the popular science uh reading world that it was like it was such a fucking tough uh tough slog but it was obviously really impactful and it was born out of like the less wrong and the scott alexander re world of the robin hansanese type thing yes and um you know like peak rationalist movement type stuff which just didn't end up having that much predictive power yeah it didn't predict llms it didn't predict sort of the model that was going to at least be the ascendant one now and you know come 2018 when i started the show i was fucking fascinated i had uh stubert russellon who wrote human compatible also the guy that wrote the text book the text book for ai right it was translated into fucking gazillion languages and years all around the world uh i i you know super obsessed by all of this stuff i tried to tobeyord on the show gazillion times and i didn't fucking work and it kind of that future didn't really come to pass in that way and you know we at least for now given all of the outcomes pretty much all of the outcomes were atrocious we can just probably a good thing yes right i'm glad that he wasn't gazandra because it would have been a real problem if he was yes but i i i don't think it had the predictive power maybe that we might have thought and it just goes to show that even the people who are balls deep in the research of these things often can't say that was only 10 years yeah so 11 years ago totally and uh it's been oh i mean llms had kind of had been around for a little while i think it was like 2010 when that's deep learning was like around that time and then transformers were 2018 so it's like yeah yeah um i don't know it's just it's it's an interesting one to see what are the other unknown unknowns uh that are going to sort of come about even in fields where the super smart people that really thinking deeply about this and have got armies of high iq autists in internet forums like really fucking contributing to this and they're scraping it and thinking about it and they've got all of these people in a council go i don't know man and i think that that's where having the Oxford Mandarin Renegade theory is allowing those to at least have a seat at the table ever so often uh is useful because it's evident that by iteration stuff doesn't always get predicted correctly and it's like orthogonal moves always like up instead of left or right yes it's always the sort of adjacent surprise the only guarantee about the future is that it will surprise you and it's yeah i mean the armchair pundin is is always wrong so i think all of these things need to be super loosely held and i love the you know the way you should comport yourself is what you said with real you know epistemic humility and collegiality with anybody talking about this because it's ultimately a lot of this stuff too is like it's like a theological debate like you could kind of guess based on somebody's like big five personality traits or like the way they think about things generally like where they're gonna shake out on especially issues like AI or UFOs where like these are issues where you know i like to think the more you know the more you know and i i do feel like i probably know more than the average person but it's almost the more you know the less you know in some sense too it's like it's they're extremely they touch on really deep truths about reality we're we're groping in the dark and we just don't ultimately know and so i think that everybody should sort of comport themselves accordingly what ways might you be wrong when it comes to the ufl stuff i'm probably very wrong about a lot of it but i i try to again always like say i'm thinking probabilistically so the idea that like phenomenologically there is something worthy of inquiry where you have really credible people seeing stuff we're getting like cross sensor data you know on that stuff is the data that we're getting you know off of flier for example like the same thing people are seeing in the case of nimits it seemed like it because he had eyewitnesses present and then one of them you know was you know chat underwood was like literally managing you know the the flier sensor whatever and he's in the same uh he's in the same craft as uh uh uh david freber so he's in the same f-16 so you know but i think you have to think in probabilities all the way down so it's like that until like you know in area 51 we have a saucer that you can unveil i can't say that in good faith that for sure we have some sort of saucer that we can unveil especially knowing that i think in the in the past you know ben rich who was the you know president skunk works in the eighties used to call ufos unfunded opportunities and i think explicitly they've used ufos as tech protection for other sort of you know like the sr71 blackbird was like that's a real self-craft that's been unveiled now the ut spy plane all these things were mistaken as ufos back in the day so i think a lot of this stuff is prozacly explainable um what you reckon where do you put the probability of it being extra terrestrial versus secret tech that human run for the phenomenon that's been spotted well this is what i love about you know the show i run it's like ufos and all the titles as you know youtube doesn't do well with nuance so but like the way i really view what i'm doing is like i'm flanking the truth so like if i can be at the forefront of the anti-gravity stuff because he wants that it was really interesting he always says there's nothing to see here he jokes about the ufos thing and then i think it was with talker he was like we have all these like pretty like impressive pilots coming out saying they've seen things and then he goes it was really interesting he goes actually i think it's uh it's just american black military ops you know it's like these special access programs that is a huge statement for me one because it's basically unless he's saying that we have some sort of weird visual spoofing technology which i don't think he was saying that then he's saying that we have some sort of like anomalous propulsion modality that space isn't using so he kind of painted himself into a corner there so that's what i've viewed i mean i truly think the show is like at the forefront of like the gravity stuff with towns and brown with what happened at the chapel hill conference in 1957 and the creation of quantum gravity and all that stuff and then also this like weird anomalous stuff that people are seeing in the sky and then the third kind of to make the iron triangle thing that i would say is consciousness where it's the thing people can say the least about but it's probably the most fundamental to everything when it comes to physics and i think there are you know anomalies and interesting things when it comes to consciousness that modern if you can stay at the front of the conversation in those three things you can sort of v formation or flank your way to the triangulate the truth if you will but i'm always i try to be super epistemically humble about that the brown stuff and the gravity it's like i'm not sure i just it's a really interesting fact pattern that i've you know i've the i interviewed um you know deputy cto of a spin up from a spin out from northward grum and who they built the b2 self-bomber and i said in a room full of it there's like a founder's on conference a ton of entrepreneurs and vc's i was like of any of this stuff what is actionable because we're talking about ufos in the sort of metaphysical sense and he goes watch jesse's video on thomas towns and brown so to me it's like and i've i've had a lot of these experiences where i'm like is anybody watching this interview that i'm doing and like this guy's credentials like he was a vp at the he helped set up army futures command um and like ran a lot of the army's most you know modern tech modernization efforts there's like a very real guy when it comes to this stuff um so i feel like you can kind of flank flank the truth if you will um and and think about everything sort of probabilistically but in aggregate you come to this high probability that we might be on the verge of a paradigm shift especially with conventional physics sort of eating itself alive as we just discussed yeah that is interesting what's why is why is consciousness the third leg of your distal yeah well i think consciousness is it's you know it's always the problem of you know dave charmer's would say it's like the the hard problem of consciousness it's like you can't tell me i'm not a p-zombie or whatever like you know i could be like some computer algorithm like i um interviewed the google whistleblower for lambda around the ai stuff and he was like convinced that lambda was conscious and i was like i think it's just math on steroids i think it's a statistic on steroids he was like no it's conscious and but we it turns into this theological debate where like there is no way to ultimately say whether something is conscious or not um but it's the most interesting thing about physics itself is it comporting itself to do we have an interface and math and physics and all of the observable universe is sort of moving through this computational interface you know or is do you live in this perfectly cartesian dualist universe where you are this measurement sensor and then you have you know the world around you as this kind of hard-coded you know uh you know kind of fully fundamentally real thing so like you know this is a table and like this is me and like there's like no relationship outside of you know like i'm just a measurement sensor of this like objective world and there's no one on the conventional citadel physics side who can say for sure that this debate has been you know fully put to rest there's no way to put it to rest and if you look at a lot of the early quantum field theorists guys like you know von Neumann who was known as the smartest guy at his time he invented the mathematical underpinnings of quantum mechanics but was a total polymath a lot of modern computational principles he and his um you know colleague johnson vigner had a model of wave function collapse that involved the mind being part of wave function collapse and just for the audience for context uh a wave function which is governed you know basically Schrodinger uh you know is this uh mid-century scientist who basically came up with this this equation that involves a wave function probability for where a subatomic particle might show up in some sort of eigenstate and it's the square of the amplitude we'll define what eigenstate it collapses into so all subatomic particles kind of exist probabilistically they don't exist in these sort of discrete uh you know forms into particles until you observe them and so it's this sort of you know uh particle wave duality or whatever and so vigner and von Neumann were like actually the mind might have to do with wave function collapse at a certain point in their careers um how he flirted with this heisenberg you know who is you know again an in charge of a lot of uh uh or responsible for a lot of quantum mechanics and ran the entire you know Nazi you know nuke program uh uh flirted with this he has a great book called life and physics where he sort of talks about these kind of more metaphysical discussions around how the mind might you know be involved in this Schrodinger himself was sort of against this but if you look at like he had this lecture series called what is life in 1944 and it was all around you know consciousness is um disproportionate impact on biology and how consciousness is sort of fundamental he had a dog that he called ottman you know based on the you know ottman and brahman and you know kind of Hindu mythology was extremely interested in the uponish odds and so a lot of these early quantum field theorists or quantum mechanics theorists would flirt with the idea that the mind collapsed the wave function and now if you were to talk to a modern physicist they would say no it's a quantum you know the double set experiment for example it's the quantum detector that's just the quantum detector doesn't matter whether an observer is present they have no way to prove that like the uh quantum detector might be holding a superposition of you know measurements itself that the observer is then you know measuring there's literally no way to prove it and while physics has went into this like cul-de-sac all string theory and a lot of the discussions were having you have these really interesting fields of study that have popped up at pretty much every elite university in the US or a lot of them at Duke they had the Ryan Institute Stanford Research Institute UCLA Princeton Engineering and Enomalous Research Lab all of these guys in one form or another studied what's known as parapsychology which is in its most rudimentary form that the mind affects wave function collapse none of the scientists that engaged in this in these sorts of experiments came out thinking that the mind didn't affect it and there wasn't some sort of interface it's really interesting like the guy who ran the Princeton Engineering and Enomalous Research Lab is in charge of uh you know he's responsible for um some modern plasma propulsion that still used in satellites today he was dean of the Princeton Engineering School his name is Bob John and he was good he read a whole book called I think it was marginal realities or something and it was about how like there's some mental interface with the wave function and he came up with the whole model a physicalist model around how this might occur in conventional physics it's pretty much Roger Penrose is like sitting out on it he's like the only guy like completely you know out on a limb saying that there's this thing called orchestrated objective reduction maybe the microtubules collapse the wave function but you have all these elite universities mid-century that said we got weak but very real and statistically significant effects around the mind you know affecting the wave function in this experiment known as random event generators where you have a super rudimentary computer so it's a computer that produces ones and zeros you tie it to something that's conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics or something like radio active isotope decay or a double set experiment where you get expect the same you know 50-50 distribution of you know both slits or whatever and you have an observer come in walk into the room and you're seeing one in ones and zeros being produced on a graphical interface that's tied to this provably random thing so it's literally the perfect digital coin flip right you'd expect over a long enough time scale with some standard deviation expected standard deviation the same amount of ones and zeros all of these people got a statistically significant standard deviation with this experiment and this is where it gets really crazy the CIA had this sort of remote viewing you know program from again the 70s to the 90s where they were using remote viewing as a really important intelligence modality in fact the top remote viewer is a guy named Joseph McMonagle and he won what's known as the Legion of Merit for over 200 instances in which he helped aid American Intel with his insights that were drawn up psychically Jimmy Carter at the end of his presidency said the craziest thing he'd ever experienced in his presidency he's on record saying this you can hear the audio he says a woman named Rosemary Smith they were looking for a TU 22 Russian spy plane or cargo plane rather that had fallen below the treetops somewhere in Africa and this woman circled a three square mile radius in Zaire and they found the plane so this was studied at the highest levels of the government the CIA then contracted a woman who's still alive today Jessica to do a meta statistical analysis Huberman style meta study you know on this sort of stuff she went on to become the president of the American Statistical Association in 2016 so you can go argue with the American Statistical Association president I'm not going through and she came out being like if this methodology and this level of skepticism scrutiny were applied to any other field of science it would be accepted immediately like the other field would be accepted immediately because of the stigma this field is not accepted why is this so much stigma I think it's manufactured I don't know I mean I don't know I truly I wish people sort of looked at this more I mean now it's starting to the dam is starting to break like thanks to you know it's like Rogan and Sean Ryan and all these guys it's like all these like government whistleblowers coming out being like the government's actually way weirder than you think and we experience all these like trippy things inside of it so I do think the dam is breaking somewhat but I don't know why you know why people aren't more open-minded is this related to the telepathy types have you seen those yes it's perfectly related to the telepathy tapes it's yes so the telepathy tapes is a podcast that surpassed all podcasts modern wisdom Joe Rogan everything it was for a little bit it was like for a month or something it was a number one podcast in America and it was all these autistic nonverbal children across the United States saying basically repeatedly showing and this what I shouldn't caveat this was not done in double blind settings so this needs to be done simultaneous to that I think anybody that listens to all the tapes and you're reasonably open-minded we'll say there's obviously something going on that's interesting here where they'll have you know the mother in another room generating you know an image on an iPad and then the son or daughter the autistic nonverbal kid in another room totally isolated they'll see some image pop up and like not even statistically significant like 19 out of 20 times they'll know what the image though the mother father is seeing and often it's they call it remote perception because it's actually the mind-melled that's more fundamental than them just being able to see something in objective time space it's their their ability to kind of meld with their parents which kind of makes sense like you interviewed Rupert Childrake I remember a few years ago a lot of that kind of lines up with that sort of anecdotal it's not anecdotal I mean experimental findings he doesn't have amazing theories I would say the Morific Resident stuff is it's a sort of a placeholder theory but he's not a bad empiricist like the experimental protocols aren't bad so these kids will they'll meet up on this telepathic hill and they'll talk to each other and they'll exchange information it's this fascinating thing and I do think there are more high agency people interested in this stuff and who have studied it rigorously then meet the eye like I'll give you an example my closest mentor runs a multi-billion dollar hedge fund and he's impressive in that context like a high performer in that context he is good at computer science he probably has like a 200 IQ or something like really really smart dude he helped Bob John the guy I mentioned the Princeton engineering and almost research guy he helped him run the lab for 10 years and he is the highest integrity guy I know he's fully fully high conviction on these random event generator experiments and he would say he would bring the physicists from you know Princeton into the lab and they'd say look like this is really important this is like breaking your models and they would say stuff like oh no it's like a file drawer issue or survivorship bias like all the kind of heuristics that you would use to like break a scientific experiment and he would go through each thing line by line like no it's not file drawer we accounted for that with this no it's not survivorship bias we kind of work with this no it's really cohort wide and we controlled for all these other things like extremely extreme if you met this guy you'd be very impressed by him and he's like they just wouldn't listen it was like it was literally and you look at these I mean the idea that the universe might be computational in nature and we might be rendering it that we might be sort of rendering a substrate that is computational like in in you know for when you see an interface you know like on your computer you see icons right you don't see the underlying thing like you need like a code compiler to like to you know abstract to take like the ones and zeros and turn it into like this larger abstracted-out thing and you don't see like electromagnetic waves right like you see like you have to iconize it like red you know is this like oh I'm scared red you know like they're evolution it's evolutionarily adaptive to sort of do that there are all these physicists that talk about like the participatory universe so they would go right up until the kind of parapsychological line of like the mind would collapse wave function but I think they got spooked or they would flirt with it privately and they wouldn't sort of get into it so John Wheeler had this sort of you know this participatory universe you talk about it from bit and computational universe and he would say that basically like wave function collapse is basically just a bunch of yes no questions so it's you know it's kind of like binary code if you will and but he would never go you know up and he would never get into like the mind is actually the thing collapsing the wave function but then you have all this interesting data coming out that maybe the mind does collapse the wave function and you have things like okay heisenberg's uncertainty principle where if you measure position of a subatomic particle momentum gets fuzzier that looks like a computational caching function to me so that looks like you're only storing one of those in local memory and you know and so what's the implication of that the implication of that is that you are there's some deeper substrate that is kind of computational of the universe and you are a local node and you are rendering your reality live and you know I don't know what it is exactly that you're you know is it intention you know I know that's like a really woo-woo term like you can go to like a new agey conference and they'll you know talk about the secret and manifestation and all that stuff I think a lot of people in their lives probably say like if I were to say Chris do you have anything that's happened in your life that's like been well below chance that's felt like this just impossible synchronicity you'd probably say yes I assume you know like most people if you were to poll they would sort of say that and then they would sort of quickly walk it back and be like you know but like it's sort of impossible you know given given physics but there are all these things even you know the way the you know golden ratio and Fibonacci sequences like used in a lot of geometric structures all over you know earth or whatever or you know Plank's constant if it were slightly off like we wouldn't have a habitable environment like the enthalopic principle you know that points I think towards probably something that you know is more computational you know in nature you know the the sheldrick stuff with morphic resonance again I don't know about his theories behind it but just the empirical observations that if you build you know crystal structure and then you build that crystal structure again it's easier the second and third time to build the same crystal structure if you know you have a novel structure to me it's because uploading times are slower than downloading times you have in sports the banister effect Roger Banister broke the four minute mile in 1952 it was broken 10 times in the next two and a half years it's as if doing something new and novel takes longer to upload to some monads some central repository of data or whatever you are client side that server side and the new incremental person that does this does it that much quicker and easier it's like you know sheldrick shows this with crossword puzzles you do it a little bit quicker if a thousand people have done it before you so like I think we'll end up with some model of the universe that might be computational in nature nobody can disprove that nobody I can't prove that definitively but nobody no scientist can ultimately disprove that and all I'm saying here is that way more serious physicists and thinkers have sort of flirted with this idea than I think people realize and then meanwhile you have you know Sabina Hossenfeld or Eric Weinstein and Sean Carroll like you know in this crazy argument about nothing like Jesse you're awesome dude fuck this is like a tour de force of stuff and uh I love your part I love your channel I think it's I think it's like tell people whether you're going to check it all they should go to Jesse Michaels on YouTube um Jesse Michaels on Spotify Jesse Michaels official on Instagram and I love your channel team man I I've been really inspired by modern wisdom and I've watched you for I don't know three four years and it's been so cool to see you just blow up so thank you for having me man for you let's run this back soon did I appreciate you let's do it man cool