US Indian Women Suffer High Rates of __ (The Why is Hidden)

Simone and Malcolm examine the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, and Two-Spirit (MMIWG2S) movement and the dominant narrative that frames high rates of violence against Native women primarily as the legacy of settler colonialism, racism, and systemic failures.They dig into historical intertribal warfare and raiding practices, the actual circumstances of Sacagawea’s life (captured as a child, sold, and one of multiple wives of a fur trapper by age 16), National Institute of Justice and CDC data on perpetrators of violence and homicide, Canadian statistics showing the large majority of accused are Indigenous, reservation versus off-reservation patterns, tribal sovereignty and property rules, residential school claims, the smallpox-blanket episode in context, and internal corruption during the Trail of Tears.The discussion challenges the “noble savage” framing, argues that most violence is intra-community, and questions whether preserving certain cultural and legal structures is helping or harming the people living under them. Strong language and dark historical accounts throughout.Show NotesNote: If you want to know how we’ve been gaslit about historical American Indians, watch Matt Walsh’s What Schools Don’t Teach You About American IndiansAnother note: Acronyms: American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN)There’s a movement called called MMIWG2SI first learned about it, ironically, from TheHolyBall, because of his song MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+I was like… what is MMIWG2S?MMIWG2S stands for Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, and Two-Spirit people. It is a grassroots movement and a term used to describe and bring awareness to the severe, disproportionate rates of systemic violence, kidnapping, and murder faced by Indigenous communities across the United States and CanadaAccording to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against Native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-Indigenous racism, bordertown violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.Wow, that sounds bad. Is it true? I thought that broadly speaking, most acts of violence and murder are committed by people with whom the victim is close.National Institute of Justice FindingsThe most cited national estimate is NIJ’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey analysis, published in 2016* It found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of these forms of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-American Indian/Alaska Native or/interracial perpetrator; 35% had experienced at least one incident involving an AI/AN/intraracial perpetrator.* These numbers do not mean 97% of incidents were committed by non-Indigenous people and 3% by Indigenous people. The categories overlap: a woman who was harmed by both an Indigenous and a non-Indigenous perpetrator appears in both columns. NIJ explicitly says its analysis measured whether someone had any interracial and/or intraracial victimization, not the count of incidents by each group.* For scale, the same survey found that 84.3% of AI/AN women reported one or more of the measured forms of lifetime violence: 56.1% sexual violence, 55.5% physical intimate-partner violence, 48.8% stalking, and 66.4% psychological aggression by an intimate partner.The report PDFPer this report, what percentage of violence against american indian and alaska native women and men is committed by american indian and alaska native people?* Among American Indian and Alaska Native people who had experienced the covered forms of violence, 35% of female victims and 33% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one American Indian or Alaska Native perpetrator (termed intraracial violence)* The same report found that 97% of female victims and 90% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one non-AI/AN perpetrator.About the National Institute of Justice: It’s the Justice Department’s research and evaluation armOlder US DataAn older Bureau of Justice Statistics analysis, using 1992–96 National Crime Victimization Survey data for all American Indian victims, not women alone, estimated that individual violent-crime victimizations involved perpetrators described as:* 60% White* 10% Black* 29% “other”—a category that combined American Indian and Asian perpetrators, though BJS said this group was likely predominantly other American IndiansIMPORTANT: This is an incident-based estimate, unlike the NIJ “ever experienced” figuresTable 9 from the report:Why This is SussFirst: In the older report, they group native americans with “Asians” in a manner that could be done to reduce the percentage of crimes perpetrated by indigenous americansSecond: In the newer report, they group non-indigenous people with mixed-race people.* Recall that the National Institute of Justice found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of these forms of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-American Indian/Alaska Native or/interracial perpetrator* WELL WHAT PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY AS AMERICAN INDIAN/ALASKA NATIVE ARE ALSO INTERRACIAL?Third: In the newer report, they asked behavioral questions rather than using documented proofHow was data collected for this research?* Interviewers called randomly selected landline and mobile-phone numbers.* The relevant analytic sample included 2,473 AI/AN adult women and 1,505 AI/AN adult men, including people identifying as AI/AN alone or alongside another racial group.* The survey used behaviorally specific questions about what respondents had experienced, rather than relying solely on respondents’ own labels for events—for example, questions about force or threats in sexual violence.=What were the exact behaviorally specific questions used?* The questions were asked in respondent-friendly language and were behavior-specific—for example, asking whether particular acts happened rather than asking “Were you abused?” The complete scripted 2010 questionnaire is publicly available from CDC* Below are representative items/wording from the instrument, organized by what the AI/AN report measured. This is paraphrased rather than reproducing the full questionnaire verbatim.* Physical intimate-partner violence: A partner slapping; pushing or shoving; pulling hair; hitting with a fist or object; kicking; slamming the person against something; trying to choke or suffocate them; beating; burning them intentionally; or using/threatening a knife or gun.* Psychological aggression: An intimate partner acting dangerously; calling the respondent names, insulting, or humiliating them.* Coercive control: Threats; interference with family or friends; restricting access to money; monitoring or controlling the respondent’s activities; and controlling reproductive or sexual health.* Stalking: Repeated unwanted calls, messages, emails, or other contact; watching or following from a distance; use of technology such as GPS or cameras; and leaving odd or potentially threatening items—asked in the context of fear or concern for safety.* Completed or attempted forced penetration: Being physically forced into vaginal, anal, or oral penetration; having penetration attempted through force; or being penetrated when unable to consent because of alcohol or drugs.* Made to penetrate: Being physically forced, pressured, or incapacitated and made to penetrate someone else; this measure included completed and attempted incidents for male respondents.* Sexual coercion: Unwanted sexual penetration after nonphysical pressure—such as persistent pressure, threats to end a relationship, or threats to spread rumors.* Unwanted sexual contact: Unwanted sexual kissing, fondling, touching, or grabbing.* Non-contact sexual experiences: Someone exposing themselves or masturbating in front of the respondent; forcing the respondent to show body parts; making them view or participate in sexual images or videos; or sexually harassing them in public in a way that felt unsafe.More Measurable Data: HomicidesWhat percentage of USA-based homicides with American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN) victims are perpetrated by American Indian/Alaska Native (AI/AN) people?* In the best available CDC analysis (published 2021, looking at data from 2003 to 2018), 32.1% of homicides with AI/AN victims had an AI/AN suspect. The corresponding figures were 39.6% non-AI/AN suspects and 28.3% with the suspect’s race/ethnicity unknown.* This result comes from 2,226 AI/AN homicide victims recorded in the National Violent Death Reporting System across 34 states and Washington, DC, from 2003–2018. A suspect was identified in 82.8% of these homicides; the 32.1%, 39.6%, and 28.3% figures are presented relative to the full set of AI/AN homicide cases, with unknown perpetrator race retained as its own category.* If you limit the denominator to cases where the suspect’s race/ethnicity was known, then about 44.8% of AI/AN-victim homicides with a known-race suspect were attributed to an AI/AN suspect, and 55.2% to a non-AI/AN suspect.The Reality of Murder and Violence in the USAUsing the FBI’s national single-victim/single-offender homicide table for 2019, about 84% of cases with a known victim race and known offender race involved a match within the same broad racial category, and about 16% involved different broad racial categories. This is the closest defensible national “in-group vs cross-race” estimate, but it is not a clean all-race-and-ethnicity measure.Where does violence/murder take most for American Indians and Alaska Natives?About 87% of people who identified as American Indian and/or Alaska Native (AI/AN), alone or in combination with another race, lived outside reservations and other tribal statistical areas in the 2020 Census. About 13% lived on reservations or other trust lands/tribal statistical areas.Are American Indians and Alaska natives more likely to experience violence when living on a reservation or when living off a reservation?* The TL:DR is that nobody is asking:* For violence overall, there is no good national, apples-to-apples estimate that can say AI/AN people are more likely to experience it on versus off reservations. The evidence indicates serious violence can be extremely high in some reservation-based communities, but national data do not adequately measure and compare urban/off-reservation AI/AN victimization using the same definitions and denominators.* What can be said:* The Bureau of Indian Affairs summarizes available evidence as finding that violence rates on some reservations can be up to ten times the national average, and that an NIJ-funded study found high reservation violence rates. But it also explicitly notes a major evidence gap: comparable rates of murder and violence among AI/AN women living in urban areas have not been adequately studied. That means “higher on reservations than off reservations” is not established nationally for all violence.* The exact quote: “While it is estimated that rates of violence on reservation can be up to ten times higher than national averages, research is missing on rates of murder violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas. An NIJ-funded study from 2008 found that the rates of violence on reservations are much higher than the national average. However, according to the Urban Indian Health Institute, no research has been done on the rates of such violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas despite the fact that approximately 71 percent of American Indian and Alaska Natives live in urban areas.”* SO THEY’RE BASICALLY SAYING THEY DON’T WANT TO ANSWER THE QUESTION BECAUSE IT LOOKS REALLY BAD????Canadian FindingsFor Canada, the best national source-specific statistic is for homicide, not all abuse or violence. Statistics Canada found that, among Indigenous women and girls killed from 2014–21 in cases where an accused person was identified, 86% of accused persons were Indigenous and roughly 14% were non-Indigenous. Most victims—81%—were killed by someone they knew.Where We Stand* American Indian and Alaska Native people are victims of violence at much higher rates* The Institute of Justice actively obfuscates the extent to which this violence is committed by American Indians and Alaska Natives by* Grouping them with other racial groups or “not counting them” if they’re interracial* Getting very liberal with definitions of abuse* Rates of violent crimes are higher on reservations* It’s clear both generally and per Canadian homicide statistics about indigenous Canadians that most violence committed against people are committed within communities; not by outsidersIn fairness to native groups, not all members of the MMIWG2S gaslight about perpetrators of violence.* The National Indigenous Women’s Resource Center (NIWRC), a prominent Native-led anti-violence and MMIW advocacy organization, publishes materials calling for accountability for offenders in tribal communities. Its guidance discusses coordinated responses to individual offender cases, sanctions and re-education for batterers, and community systems that hold people who abuse accountable.* The Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women and related MMIWG2S advocates similarly frame MMIWG as involving domestic violence, sexual assault, trafficking, and homicide, while supporting survivor services and accountability in Native communities.* EVEN THOUGH THEY CONTINUE TO INSIST IT’S EUROPEANS WHO SOMEHOW CAUSED ALL THIS VIOLENCE.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Yeah, so there’s this movement called MMIW G2 S.[00:00:08] , it stands for[00:00:10] Speaker 4: . they provided zero dollars to deal with the ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+.[00:00:19] Simone Collins: I[00:00:19] so according to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-indigenous racism, border town violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.[00:00:44] Wow, that sounds really bad. Is it true? I thought that probably speaking, most acts of violence were, you know, like, like murder, were committed by- Mm ... by people with whom the victim is close, right? Like, is that generally the saying-[00:00:59] Malcolm Collins: That is generally true, yes.[00:01:00] Simone Collins: Co- So let’s, okay, let’s figure out what’s happening then.[00:01:03] If, if white colonialism is causing missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit people, let’s find out what’s going on.[00:01:12] Would you like to know more?[00:01:13] Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm, I’m so excited to be speaking with you today because I have been gaslit about American Indians and I am angry.[00:01:23] I, I, the young lady who was obsessed with Sacagawea as a kid and wrote big school reports on her. I dressed up as her, though of course that would get me in trouble now, and I collected those golden Sacagawea coins. I don’t know if you remember these.[00:01:39] Malcolm Collins: Yes ...[00:01:39] Simone Collins: and I spent hours as a kid and teen sitting next to bedrock mortars created by the Neshnon people along the American River, just thinking in, you know, in reverence about these amazing, peaceful people just grinding, you know, food in these really cool mortars.[00:01:55] Little did I know how much I’d been gaslit about American Indians. I didn’t know that by some accounts 96% of American Indian tribes had engaged in warfare and that 85% of American tribes either conducted or actively resisted raids at least once a year. At least once a year. I had no idea. On other[00:02:14] Malcolm Collins: tribes?[00:02:14] Yes,[00:02:14] Simone Collins: on other tribes. Wait, wasn’t Sacagawea’s tribe[00:02:17] Malcolm Collins: the[00:02:19] Simone Collins: one where they would-[00:02:20] Malcolm Collins: Kill people by peeling off their skin using clam shells? I[00:02:23] Simone Collins: had heard that before, but I was like, oh, it’s, it’s, you know, a, adult colonists. Who cares, right? Like, there was an invasion- Not[00:02:29] Malcolm Collins: children. Uh-oh.[00:02:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, but I guess, you know, I hadn’t read the account of Rachel, Rachel Parker Plummer who was captured by Comanche Indians while pregnant, and if you wanna figure out what happened[00:02:40] Malcolm Collins: to[00:02:41] Simone Collins: her- Well, not[00:02:41] Malcolm Collins: the Comanches-[00:02:41] and her infant- ... but we’re talking about, the, the point is it’s not just the Comanches. You see this across, like, extremely brutal behavior.[00:02:47] Simone Collins: Well, and you can understand why. I mean, it’s a very simple di- and one, I mean, almost all primitive cultures regardless of where they are, have engaged in violent raiding and behavior.[00:02:55] Like, this is just, a lot of it comes down to a lack of civilization that we’re, like, refusing to talk about here. But also, I mean, w- in the end, if, if you have an environment, a, a continent in which there are raiding and violent tribes that steal resources from other tribes by killing and stealing, and then you have the peaceful ones, well, after a certain number of, of decades, the peaceful ones are gonna be dead, and the ones who fight back and are also violent and can defend themselves are going to survive.[00:03:24] You know, limping forward. So[00:03:26] Malcolm Collins: obviously- Well, until, the, but the thing is is it’s, it’s different where in Europe you’re able to build full-scale civilization that was able to defend itself and was large enough to the point where your average person didn’t yearly live with the risk-[00:03:38] Simone Collins: So civilization is the bulwark that, that, that, that shifts humans from, from animals into humans.[00:03:43] They’re the thing that, that prevents us from devolving into violence and ferocity. But[00:03:47] Malcolm Collins: what I was most excited about following here was your im- in- No,[00:03:51] Simone Collins: no, no, I, Malcolm, I told you not to interrupt me, and you are. Okay. So you just gotta- Okay. No, no, no ... keep your mouth shut because I still have to, this, ‘cause this is so disturbing to, you have to understand, Malcolm, I’m, like, so [00:04:00] steamed about this.[00:04:01] Because, you know, like I, I mentioned, I was super into Sacagawea as a kid. I didn’t know, despite doing an entire school report on her in the 1990s, that by the time that Lewis and Clark met Sacagawea in 1804, do you know how old she was?[00:04:15] Malcolm Collins: How?[00:04:16] Simone Collins: She was 16 years old. You know, the one with the baby on her back?[00:04:20] And she was only one of the wives of this, this French Canadian fur trapper, one of his wives, who had purchased her from a tribe that had captured her, that likely at the time they captured her ‘cause she was Shoshone and she was taken by the Hidatsa people apparently, as a kid. They probably killed her parents, and then they sold her into sex slavery to some, like, French Canadian trapper who had multiple women.[00:04:47] And so here’s she, th- basically she’s a trafficked woman who’s been put on a gold coin, and everyone’s like, “Oh, lovely woman, lovely...” She died at, like, age, age 24 approximately. Of course, no one also, I didn’t know that either. So here’s this woman who’s like, “Oh, yes, Native Americans are so wonderful. Oh, you know, s- oh, yes, of course, the, the trafficked slave.”[00:05:07] Love it. Love it for her. I, I, I thought she was some adult model, you know? Trafficked[00:05:11] Malcolm Collins: by, by, by the way-[00:05:11] Simone Collins: Trafficked,[00:05:11] Malcolm Collins: trafficked by- ... by Indians ... a[00:05:15] Simone Collins: Native American tribe that captured her So[00:05:18] Malcolm Collins: just, just, just in case people are wondering the guy who was engaged in sex slavery and owned her was, can you guess what religion?[00:05:27] Simone Collins: Oh God, was he Catholic?[00:05:28] Malcolm Collins: He was Catholic.[00:05:29] Simone Collins: Malcolm, I have to reset my- ... hours since Malcolm’s last Catholic, anti-Catholic scree. Fantastic. Of course. No,[00:05:36] Malcolm Collins: I just needed to check. I was like, would my people engage in that practice?[00:05:40] Simone Collins: Of course.[00:05:40] Malcolm Collins: I don’t[00:05:40] Simone Collins: think so. Of course. Of... No, they would just, like, marry the ones that they thought were chill.[00:05:44] They didn’t have to buy them, okay? But like, look, look. Well, honestly though, like I, I didn’t know all of these things had happened to Sacagawea because I had used library books in the ‘90s, before the internet was accessible to me, to learn about her. And some people, I wonder who, were just systematically just erasing all the inconvenient parts of her upbringing and childhood.[00:06:10] Well, I guess still childhood, because I, I didn’t know she was 16 freaking years old when all this was happening. She was a fr- she was a teenager, and we demonize Jeffrey Epstein for tempting young girls with money to do disgusting things, but when American Indians kidnap girls, kill their parents, and sell them into sex slavery, oh, it was just a different time.[00:06:27] They were mostly peaceful people. And I reckon that we say that we’re all pretty glad that Jeffrey Epstein is dead, but when people talk about the erasure of Native American culture, oh, it’s a tragedy. And I can’t tell you about what American Indians did historically, because I tried to do it in another episode and I just started ugly crying, and I’m not doing that again because I, I don’t want[00:06:50] There’s too much of that already. And so what I can tell you about is that it’s possible that we are actively being lied to about American Indians now, not just historically. And so because I’m, I’m pissed at American Indian culture and the damage it may still be doing to this day, I’m coming for it.[00:07:07] Malcolm Collins: To, to people of Native American descent, mind you.[00:07:10] It-[00:07:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, yep, yes ... this proportion- Yeah, exactly, ‘[00:07:12] Malcolm Collins: cause there’s, there’s- ... same way the Sacagawea, this is a, the, that, this is being covered up. Yeah. The number one group that is suffering for it today-[00:07:19] Simone Collins: Is Native Americans ... are[00:07:20] Malcolm Collins: Native Americans.[00:07:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:07:21] Malcolm Collins: The number one victim of the brutality of Native American culture- Because[00:07:25] Simone Collins: we, because we are, we are refusing to say that this is a primitive culture that we have not allowed to evolve into a civilized culture that is allowing people to be abused and hurt.[00:07:35] Yeah, so there’s this movement called MMIW G2 S.[00:07:40] Speaker: G B T yeah K[00:07:52] Simone Collins: It, it, it, it stands for missing and murdered indigenous women, girls, and two-spirit people. And I didn’t [00:08:00] even know it existed until Holy Ball made a song called MMIWG2SLGP2QQIA[00:08:10] Plus. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s a good song. I love that song.[00:08:13] Speaker 4: . They provided zero dollars to deal with the ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQQIA+.[00:08:22] Simone Collins: I d- I, I was confused to this whole addendum that had been put on the front of- the, the alphabet. And a- a- and then it’s, w- actually, when I was trying to search for the, the Holy Ball song on YouTube, some other songs from the MMIW G2S movement came up, like about missing, murdered indigenous women and girls, et cetera.[00:08:46] So according to organizations like the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, violence against native women and children is primarily framed as a legacy of Spanish and Euro-American invasion, settler colonialism, and continuing structural forces such as anti-indigenous racism, border town violence, police brutality, and failures within the judicial system.[00:09:11] Wow, that sounds really bad. Is it true? I thought that probably speaking, most acts of violence were, you know, like, like murder, were committed by- Mm ... by people with whom the victim is close, right? Like, is that generally the saying-[00:09:26] Malcolm Collins: That is generally true, yes.[00:09:27] Simone Collins: Co- So let’s, okay, let’s figure out what’s happening then.[00:09:30] If, if white colonialism is causing missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirit people, let’s find out what’s going on. So the[00:09:40] Malcolm Collins: national- This would be like if you compared the, like, grape rates of, like, Black women or, like, murder rates of Black women, and then try to frame it in a way that it’s like it’s white people doing this to them, when, like, everyone would be like, “I don’t think it is.”[00:09:53] Actually, there was the great chart that looked at directional grape rates over the course of-[00:09:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s been trending recently ... a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:10:00] And- No, i- interracial, interracial rates of- And[00:10:03] Malcolm Collins: it showed the white male on Black female was literally zero for the entire year.[00:10:08] Simone Collins: Right, but the untold story there is how, and this is sounding so bad, but how Black women are screwed in dating markets, that they perform worse in, in swipe-based dating markets, and even on non-swipe based ones, than Asian men, who perform dismally.[00:10:25] Which is to say Like, this sounds so bad, but it’s one of those, like, no one even wants[00:10:31][00:10:34] Simone Collins: situations. Because that is, this is how much bias and, like-[00:10:37] Malcolm Collins: I’m definitely cutting that out, Simone. I[00:10:40] Simone Collins: know- I am- ... but I’m saying, like, that’s, that’s what’s really going on here.[00:10:44] Malcolm Collins: But any- but the, the, the us not being able to talk about this leads to worse o- outcomes for these groups.[00:10:52] Simone Collins: Exactly. And, and what’s, what’s so disturbing about this is that it’s being actively actively sort of buried. It’s like, “Oh, there’s this big problem. It’s all because of...” And then e- so it... Look, if there’s- So[00:11:03] Malcolm Collins: if there’s a giant problem with trafficking and rape and disappearing of women in these communities- Yeah[00:11:10] what we should be doing is[00:11:13] Simone Collins: really focusing- It’s like, no, it’s, it’s like there’s a leak in your house ... on the men in these communities. There’s, like, a leak coming through the roof like in this room right now dripping on top of me. And people are coming over and I’m like, “I’m getting soaked here.[00:11:22] Help me out.” And they’re like, “All right, heading straight to the bathroom. I bet it’s the toilet.” You know, they’re like down there in the basement. I’m sitting here on the third floor being rained on. Like, that’s, that’s the problem. Anyway, I wanted to look at what, what formal institutions are saying, and the National Institute of Justice is one of the prominent bodies that is, and this is, I think it’s a branch of the Department of Justice. Let me, let me double-check. Yeah, it’s the Justice Department’s research and evaluation arm. So this is- The, you know, best and brightest of the US government putting this together for us, really trying to solve tough, wicked problems. And they have provided the most cited national estimate of [00:12:00] national intimate partner and sexual violence from that survey.[00:12:03] So and the, the, the most cited one was published in 2016. It found that 97% of American Indian or Alaska Native women who reported one or more of some form of lifetime violence had experienced at least one incident involving a non-Native American Indian/Alaska Native or interracial perpetrator. 35% had experienced at least one incident involving an American Indian or Alaska Native interracial perpetrator.[00:12:31] So what they’re saying here is, look, 97% are getting hit from outside the room. Only 35% had only experienced at least one incident involving someone of their own kind. These numbers look pretty bad. The, the same survey found that 84.3% of American Indian or Alaska Native women were reported one or more of the, the measured forms of lifetime violence.[00:12:55] 56.1 sexual violence, 55.5 physical intimate partner violence, 48.8 stalking, 66.4 psychological aggression by an intimate partner. I linked to the report’s PDF and a lot of other things in the show notes, so you can take a look at that. But I, I also asked, I, like, opened the PDF and then I used AI to ask what percentage of violence against American Indian and Alaska Native women and men is committed by American Indian and Alaska Native people And the answer is, among American Indian and Alaska Native people who had experienced the covered forms of violence, 35% of female victims and 33% of male victims had experienced violence at least by one American Indian or Alaska Native perpetra- perpetrator.[00:13:37] So, that confused me. I, I was also confused that the same report found that 97% of female victims and 90% of male victims had experienced violence by at least one non-American Indian or Alaska Native perpetrator. And then there’s also older US data that also the Bureau of Justice Statistics Analysis had, had posted looking at a 1992 to ‘96 ra- range of national crime victimization survey data of all American Indian victims, not women alone.[00:14:05] And they found that it involved perpetrators being described as 60% white, 10% Black, 29% other, a category that combined American Indian and Asian perpetrators which is interesting. So here’s what I find sus about these reports, ‘cause I’m not gonna make you figure it out yourself. First, in the older report I just mentioned, they group Native Americans with Asians in a matter that could be done to reduce the percentage of crimes perpetrated by Indigenous Americans.[00:14:34] Like, you, you wouldn’t... You’re like, “Well, that must be, like, mostly Asians then.” Like-[00:14:39] Malcolm Collins: That, that seems intentionally,[00:14:41] Simone Collins: Yeah, like they’re really trying to, like, mm, like- There,[00:14:44] Malcolm Collins: there is- ... look, it’s possibly[00:14:45] Simone Collins: all Asians ...[00:14:45] Malcolm Collins: no, hold on. There isn’t actually... Like, if you’re, if you had good aims in putting together these reports, there is no reason you wouldn’t set out the, the group that you are studying as a category- Mm-hmm[00:14:58] in the attempted assaults.[00:15:01] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:15:01] Malcolm Collins: You,[00:15:01] Simone Collins: there is no- Wait, but remember Octa- No, no so, sorry. Keep thinking of our son. Malcolm, in the first report they did, right? They separated out that, that, that 35% rate of American Indian, Alaska Native, but do you wanna know what they did with the non-Alaska Native American Indian?[00:15:18] What? That, like, much higher percentage. So I read it real fast, but the not American Indian, Alaska Native included interracial people. So if the perceived attacker had a drop of non-pure Native American blood,[00:15:35] Malcolm Collins: they- They encountered them as whatever other... And the fact that the interracial label was dropped from the second survey means it would probably did the same thing to lower the rates.[00:15:47] Because I thought- Well, that- ... those rates sounded low. And yeah, you’re- And then I hear this and I’m like, oh, that’s how they’re low. They’re- Well,[00:15:52] Simone Collins: they, they just grouped, they grouped, like, every other, like, basically non-American Indian plus [00:16:00] any American Indian that’s interracial all in one group, and that was the only two groups that they looked at.[00:16:05] It was either American Indian, Alaska Native or not, but not included interracial, which is- Insanely suspicious. And it just looked to me like they were trying to, like, hand wave away the call coming from within the house. And that made me angry. Of course, not as angry as historical accounts of Native American violence, because I’m not even gonna get into that.[00:16:26] You can look it up yourself, okay? Mm-hmm. I’ll link to a great video by Matt Walsh that you can watch, that I couldn’t finish because I started crying too hard. Okay? But anyway I also wanna touch on, because I’ll- keep in mind they, they were talking about various forms of violence that people reported for this report.[00:16:43] This is less important to my argument, but I still found it notable. For, for the, the research collected in the most cited 2016 study interviewers called randomly selected landline and mobile phone numbers. And the relevant analytic sample studied or looked at, included 2,473 American Indian and Alaska Native adult women, and 1,505 American Indian Alaska Native adult men.[00:17:09] And this included people identifying as these things alongside other groups. So either alone or, like, like I’m half this, half that, or, you know, just I’m pure, pure Cherokee, whatever. And the survey used be- behaviorally specific questions about what respondents had experienced rather than relying on respondents’ own labels.[00:17:30] Like, were you beaten? Are you the victim of sexual violence? Are you the victim of abuse? They didn’t ask that. They asked questions. Can I ask you some example questions? Because they were asked from in this sort of respondent-friendly language and, and behavior-specific, Yeah ... and the questionnaire that was used, ‘cause it’s a complete scripted 2010 questionnaire that they used it’s available publicly from the CDC.[00:17:53] So I created representative wording from the instrument, and I’m gonna ask you some questions so you can see if I have ever abused you. Can I? Are you ready for this?[00:18:03] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah, sure. Sure.[00:18:04] Simone Collins: All right. I’m calling you. Ring, ring. Ring,[00:18:06] Malcolm Collins: ring. Hello, it’s Malcolm.[00:18:09] Simone Collins: Hello, sir. Have you ever experienced a partner slapping, pushing, or shoving, or pulling hair, or hitting with a fist or object, or kicking, or slamming you against something, or trying to choke or suffocate you, or beating you, or burning you intentionally, or using or threatening a knife or gun?[00:18:28] Time, what a great time. Have I never, have I never pushed you or shoved you?[00:18:31] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. The, the, the push is the easiest thing there.[00:18:34] Simone Collins: I mean, are you gonna deny that I’ve shoved you?[00:18:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I d- that’s the one, that’s the big one there. Like, yeah, she’s probably shoved me before.[00:18:43] Simone Collins: These are psychological aggression. Have I acted dangerously, called you names, insulted you, or humiliated you?[00:18:51] Malcolm Collins: Yes, of course. By accident. Okay.[00:18:54] Simone Collins: Have I threatened you, interfered with your family or friends restricted your access to money, monitored or- Yes[00:19:02] controlled your activities? Have I controlled- A[00:19:05] Malcolm Collins: thousand times yes. I am[00:19:06] Simone Collins: constantly bullied ... have I controlled your reproductive or sexual health? Yeah all these things. Also have you, have you rece- stalking. Have you received repeated unwanted calls, messages, emails or other contact- Today Have I followed you-[00:19:22] Malcolm Collins: Malcolm, have you given[00:19:23] Simone Collins: me the Twitter episode yet?[00:19:23] from a distance or used technology such as GPS or cameras, or leaving odd and potentially threatening items asked asking you in the context of fear of control or concern for your safety?[00:19:34] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes, 100%. Right now she’s setting up cameras, little recording devices all over the house for our website.[00:19:41] Simone Collins: Yep.[00:19:43] So I think Malcolm, you’re a[00:19:44] Malcolm Collins: victim- I[00:19:45] Simone Collins: am in the,[00:19:46] Malcolm Collins: You have abusive Max me here.[00:19:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, you’re a victim of abuse. I’m not gonna read the rest of them. But what I’m trying to say is the, the kind of survey that they’re presenting could be leading to a little bit of over-reporting. Hopefully not, you know.[00:19:57] Hopefully they’re doing this in good faith, but what I’m [00:20:00] more, what I’m more,[00:20:00] Malcolm Collins: No, this is clearly not in good faith.[00:20:04] Simone Collins: I know. I know. It’s got- It’s, it’s not g- it doesn’t look great. The research- No survey[00:20:08] Malcolm Collins: done in good faith would include multi-ethnic people as not Native Americans if they’re[00:20:12] Simone Collins: living in the US No, that, that’s, that’s the egregious thing.[00:20:14] Super egregious. And then I mean, also going back to our sanity test at the beginning of this if, if we’re just gonna ask what percentage of USA based homicides with American Indian and Alaska Native victims are perpetrated by American Indian and Alaska Native people, well, per the best CDC analysis, which was published in 2021, but was only looking at data from 2003 to 2018, 32% of homicides with an American Indian or Alaska Native victim had a, a, a suspect that was also a, a, an indigenous American.[00:20:48] And that was basically, like almost 40% had indigenous suspects and then almost another 30%, it was like, “Well, we don’t know who killed them.” And that’s coming from a sample of over 2,000 homicide victims. But then when you look at the reality of murder and violence in the USA, using the FBI’s national single victim or single offender homicide table for 2019, around 84% of cases with a known victim race and a known offender race involved a match within the same broad racial category, and around 16% involved different broad racial categories.[00:21:26] So it’s super freaking weird to me that like- Everyone else kinda keeps it in the fam, and then there’s this, like, one group where it’s like, “Oh, I don’t know who killed them. It’s a mystery.” You know? Like-[00:21:40] Well,[00:21:40] Malcolm Collins: they don’t e- they don’t even include it in the data. You can’t cleanly include it in the data because of the way that they’re counting things.[00:21:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. And then I also was like, okay, well, maybe I can look at, at this from the angle of, like, does... Where does this violence and murder take place most for American Indians and Alaska Natives? And a- apparently, about 87% of people who identified as American Indian or Alaska Native alone, or in combination with some other race, lived outside reservations and other tribal areas in the 2020 census.[00:22:12] About 13% lived on reservations or other trust lands or tribal statistical areas. And I, I asked then, are American Indians and Alaska Natives more likely to experience violence when living on a reservation or when living off a reservation? And basically, no one’s asking, because I think they really don’t want the answer, for violence overall. There’s no good national apples to apples[00:22:38] Malcolm Collins: estimate. That is suspicious that they don’t have that data.[00:22:40] Simone Collins: It’s really suspicious. Basically, the indicates, the evidence that is out there indicates very serious violence can be extremely high in some reservation-based communities, but national data does not adequately measure and compare urban versus off-reservation American Indians and Alaska Natives.[00:22:58] Wasn’t there recently[00:22:58] Malcolm Collins: a case of a murder because of this, where they knew a person was likely to murder someo- someone?[00:23:04] Simone Collins: That was a white woman and her husband.[00:23:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it was a white woman, and, but he lived on a reservation, and the- Mm-hmm ... reservation police w- didn’t wanna do anything about it. Oh[00:23:11] Simone Collins: my God, you’re right.[00:23:12] Ah. And- I forgot that. Ooh.[00:23:15] Malcolm Collins: They’re just like, “Yeah, we, when we have people who say they’re gonna murder women, we just let them do it.” Like, it’s the reservation policy.[00:23:20] Simone Collins: I mean, that’s the, a, you know, yeah. It’s, it’s like the old Cambridge and Oxford days when they were like, “Ah, sorry, Oxford rules.” Like...[00:23:28] Malcolm Collins: She’s talking here about when people were tried under different legal systems i- if they were students and this is what we’re seeing. And, and people are like, “Well, why can’t you just overturn it?” You can’t overturn it because of the the autonomy that’s been given to Native American communities.[00:23:42] There was a great question where I was watching somebody heckle, Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk[00:23:48] Simone Collins: Charlie[00:23:48] Malcolm Collins: Kirk.[00:23:48] About why can’t Native American communities, w- b- people who live in them do X, Y, and Z that a normal American can do?[00:23:56] Speaker 2: I’m not sure if you even know this, but Native Americans are not [00:24:00] allowed to own private property on reservations. All native land is held in federal trust.[00:24:04] Why do I never hear you speaking up for indigenous rights, Charlie? That’s a little too accusatory, but I do speak up for the best of native culture. You know what the first thing that needs to happen? The obliteration of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and redo it in a way that actually represents the best interest of native and indigenous people.[00:24:19] Malcolm Collins: And the obvious answer, it, is th- that’s your own people doing that to you.[00:24:25] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:24:26] Malcolm Collins: You know, we reorganized with your leaders a legal system- That’s it ... and they made it corrupt and abusive to you.[00:24:31] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:24:32] Malcolm Collins: Right? Like, one of the best things you could conceivably do for American Native Americans is to dissolve tribal autonomy.[00:24:39] Simone Collins: Like, for real actually. Huh. But because look, the Bureau of Indian Affairs does summarize available evidence as, as finding that violence rates on some reservations can be up to 10 times the national average.[00:24:54] The exact quote from this report, “While it is estimated- I can see[00:24:57] Malcolm Collins: why they don’t wanna d- do the demographic breakdown here.[00:25:01] Simone Collins: Yes. No, no, but the- No, it,[00:25:02] Malcolm Collins: it’s white people coming in for, like, essay tourism, of course.[00:25:07] Simone Collins: Oh, God. Yeah, so the way they worded it exactly, “While it is estimated that the rates of violence on reservation can be up to 10 times higher than national averages, research is missing on the rates of murder violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas.[00:25:23] An NIJ-funded study from 2008 found that the rates of violence on reservations are much higher than the national average. However, according to the Urban Indian Health Institute, no research has been done on the rates of such violence among American Indian and Alaska Native women living in urban areas, despite the fact that approximately 71% of American Indian and Alaska Native live in urban areas.”[00:25:46] So they’re basically saying they don’t want to answer the question because it looks really bad. And they’re like, “Well, I bet they’re killed off the reservation, too. Like, I’m totally sure, bro.” Like-[00:25:56] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? I, I wanna point out here something you said at the beginning of this that’s really important for people to understand is my ancestors, you know, I, I come from- Originally Scottish ancestry were, were savages, right?[00:26:09] They were godless savages. They practiced, you know, we know what they were practicing[00:26:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, they like literally got kicked out of Scotland. Like they were-[00:26:14] Malcolm Collins: Children sacrifice. No, no, no, but I’m talking about before the Christian period, right? Like they- Oh, sure ... they practiced human sacrifice.[00:26:19] Simone Collins: Oh, oh, yeah.[00:26:21] Malcolm Collins: They would sacrifice children under buildings and bridges to, you know, make them s- more stable.[00:26:26] The, the[00:26:26] Simone Collins: very- No, that was, that was below, that was below Hadrian’s Wall. I don’t know if the Scots got-[00:26:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that might not have been as high up as my area, but they, they did really- No ... they, they, they were, it was very, you[00:26:34] Simone Collins: know- No, but like literally when the Romans came to England and they got to Scotland, they’re like, “Well, let’s build a wall and just keep them-” Yeah, let’s build-[00:26:40] on the other side.” ...[00:26:42] Malcolm Collins: a barrier. Yeah. The, the point I’m making here is that when Simone and I talk about history from these time periods, and when we look for names from our children from these time periods, when we look at what we venerate from these time periods, what groups are we studying? We’re studying the Romans, we’re studying the Greeks, and we’re studying the Israelites.[00:27:01] We are[00:27:02] Simone Collins: not- But not, yeah, our literally own people were doing horrendous, horrible things because they lacked civilization. We honor civilization. The, it, this is not about like your genetic inheritance. This is about are you ruled by civil law by, by something higher than just your animal instincts, or are you not?[00:27:19] And if you’re not- Mm-hmm ... then I don’t care. Like[00:27:23] Malcolm Collins: you can keep the- But a pointless veneration for your own genetic ancestry, which is what we have in an extent sort of brainwashed or forced Native Americans to do within the American educational system, can lead to it being hard to build from that ancestry, where- Yeah,[00:27:39] Simone Collins: there, there’s literally no such thing as a noble savage.[00:27:41] Like the fact that, that this is being held onto is disgusting.[00:27:45] Malcolm Collins: It, it’s racist. Yeah. The assumption that I have to venerate, when I look to the past, I have to venerate Celtic practices, right, is, would, would to me be a racist assumption. Oh, you think just because I’m genetically Celtic that [00:28:00] I have to venerate Celtic practices?[00:28:02] Yeah, like no. No, I venerate- No ... Roman practices. Yeah. I venerate ancient Greek practices. I venerate ancient Israeli practices. I venerate the practices of the civilized world, right?[00:28:12] Simone Collins: Yes, obviously.[00:28:13] Malcolm Collins: Which I am a descendant of because I choose to be. That’s the great thing about civilization, is becoming civilized and identifying with the civilized world is fundamentally a choice.[00:28:24] Mm-hmm. Right? Like you can decide when you look to history, do you read the, And I, and I know this because I’ve read them. I have read many of the because my parents made me read like the Popol Vuh and all of the ancient like Mayan writings, and I w- read many of the Native American origin stories and everything like that.[00:28:44] And I, I, I went through them all. And these are stories often tens of thousands of years younger than you know, much less like The Iliad something like, you know, Dante’s Inferno or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. You know, or, Oh, what’s, what’s that Greek Roman one?[00:29:00] Simone Collins: The Aeneid?[00:29:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the Aeneid.[00:29:03] Th- like the, like you contrast them with, like, the Aeneid, which they’re younger than, and you’re like, “This is... W- what are we even doing here,” right? Like- Yeah ... I, and I, I look at what my people were writing at around those time per- It was nothing, nothing, nothing interesting. If you look at, like, the broadest genetic correl- I guess Beowulf is the oldest thing out of, like, my broader area, and this is, like, 10,000 years after a lot of these other stories, and it’s frankly, I’m gonna be honest, like, artistically not very sophisticated.[00:29:31] And, and the reason I say this, and it’s so important to elevate this point, is we’re not coming at this from some sort of, like, racialist, supremacist lens or something like that. What we’re saying is taking a racialist, supremacist lens, saying you must first and foremost identify with Native American culture you can’t say I’m this variant of Native American culture, permanently traps people in, in a cycle where when you say something like, “We need to dissolve the tribal governments.[00:29:58] Can’t you see how corrupt they are? Can’t you see these horrible situations that they put you on?” Yeah, I remember what the person was saying. They were saying, “Why can’t we own private land on the reservations?” Oh. That is not the federal government’s choice. That is absolutely the reservation’s choice because, well, the, not the reservations, but the, the council that controls the reservation, because they don’t want anyone to have enough power base to challenge them.[00:30:20] Like, not being able to question one’s own corrupt practices or one’s own, which is essentially the-[00:30:26] Simone Collins: Oh, we’ll get to it actually. They, they- Yeah ... they kinda try Go, go, go, go. Yeah, this is kind of the sad ending of it, but in terms of government statistics on the actual perpetrators of the horrific violence and abuse that, that a lot of Native Americans, Alaska Natives, whatever American Indians are subject to Canada’s a little more honest.[00:30:44] In for Canada, the best national source specific statistic is for homicide, not all abuse or violence, which is I would say more accurate, ‘cause again, those questions that I gave you were a little, little broad. Unless Malcolm have you just realized that you need some help? Look, ladies and gentlemen, help out Malcolm here.[00:31:00] Tell Wait, wait, wait, but- Help him get out. Free Malcolm. #FreeMalcolm. But anyway, Statistics Canada- But- ... found that among indigenous women and girls killed from 2014 to 2021, so this is not the 1800s, this is not the 1950s. In cases where the accused person was identified, 86% of accused persons were indigenous and roughly 14% were non-indigenous.[00:31:23] Most victims, 81%, were killed by someone they knew. So where we stand with all this, to sum it up, American Indian and Alaska Native people are victims of violence at much higher rates. It’s true. The Institute of Justice actively obfuscates the extent to which this violence is committed by American Indians and Alaska Natives by, one, grouping them with other racial groups or not counting them if they are interracial, basically, or getting very liter- liberal with their definitions of abuse, and rates of violent crimes are- Indeed, provably higher on reservations, [00:32:00] and it’s clear both generally and per Canadian homicide statistics about indigenous Canadians that most violence committed against people are committed within communities, not by outsiders.[00:32:11] So in fairness to these Native groups, not all members of the MMIWG2S community gaslight about the perpetrators of violence. Or they might... I, I’ve noticed that on some of the same websites where they, like, broadly imply that this is due to European Spanish colonialism and, like, racism or whatever they also say things like, well, the National Indigenous Women’s Resource Center, which is one of the prominent Native-led anti-violence and MMIW advocacy organizations, publishes materials calling for accountability for offenders in tribal communities.[00:32:48] I think that’s interesting because outside tribal communities, it’s generally considered that, like You can call the police and, you know, I don’t know, like get custody, divorce, like actually kind of, you know, call for accountability. Yeah. Anyway, their guidance discusses coordinated responses to indi- individual offender cases, sanctions and re-education for batterers, and community systems that hold people who abuse accountable.[00:33:17] Which to me sounds kind of like a super low bar, and I thought that we already kind of did that in society, but maybe reservations are different. So I thought that was really interesting.[00:33:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and, and that is interesting. It’s like, yeah, let’s, let’s if, if somebody is abusing, we’re- what we should be fighting for is[00:33:36] Simone Collins: having them prosecuted Is telling them to stop.[00:33:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. What? This is so far behind- Tell them to stop ... where the rest of the United States has been.[00:33:44] Simone Collins: Yeah, what are, what are they doing now? I[00:33:47] Malcolm Collins: don’t, And by the way, speaking of gaslighting, you know, it’s, it’s recently come out that that whole thing that we grew up hearing about how the Native children were took from their families in Canada and put- Oh[00:33:56] in these schools where they were, like, mass killed and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then they did recent, like, archeological investigations at the sites and everything looking for the graves and everything like that, and they basically found out it was completely fabricated.[00:34:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, the graves weren’t there[00:34:08] Malcolm Collins: that there, there were instances of attempting to, you know, quote-unquote bring them to civilization- Civilize, yeah ... educate them and stuff like that. But what this looked like is, like, let’s teach them to read. Let’s teach them our language. Let’s help them integrate, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... which is broadly what we do with, like, Muslims in most of Europe now, right?[00:34:27] Like, now, because they were boarding schools, it was slightly different, but it looks like all of these cases of abuse and stuff like that, they’re just not substantiated by the record, which shows how much people have twisted the record.[00:34:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, one, and compare that to the way that many young American Indian, Alaska Native, whatever, indigenous people experienced just among their own tribes especially due to the violence they were subject to with tribal raids.[00:34:55] When Sacagawea was kidnapped she, she and a bunch of other little girls were kidnapped. Men and women were killed during the raid, and also a bunch of young boys. So young boys that she grew up with were just killed. And so I, I imagine that, like, what was freaking out a lot of people who wanted to build a better world for all the humans they encountered were like, “Oh, dude, these kids are either being killed or sold into sex slavery.[00:35:20] Could we, like, do something about this? What if we put them in board-” Like, I, I don’t know the situation in Canada. I look mostly at, at just America-based tribes when I was doing this research. But I’m just saying, like, I don’t imagine that the, the raiding environment, just given the dynamics of basically if there’s anyone raiding, basically soon all w- e- everyone who survives is gonna be raiding just to stay alive or at least defending themselves violently.[00:35:44] Yeah. Anyway, I, I’m not defending tribal schools or whatever, or re-education programs, but I also fully[00:35:51] Malcolm Collins: understand why people would do that Yeah. No, I’m, I’m actually against it, but I think that I’m against it for the reason of, I think if somebody’s from a different culture and they do not want to integrate with your culture...[00:35:57] Now, obviously this was different in the case of Native Americans [00:36:00] because it was us coming into their lands. Yeah. But in general, like you just shouldn’t have them in the country, right?[00:36:05] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:36:06] Yeah. But also, I just wanna add the Coalition to Stop Violence Against Native Women, also related to some, some other organizations, advocates really strongly for involving, they, they want to... Sorry. They frame the movement, the MMIWG movement, as involving domestic violence and sexual assault and trafficking and homicide while supporting survivor services and accountability in native communities. So that same group that I, I quoted at the beginning of, of this discussion that was like, “Oh, this is due to white European settler colonialism,” is all like, “Well, okay, part of the solution is we need to encourage[00:36:47] Malcolm Collins: tribal-” By the way,[00:36:48] Simone Collins: j- just to[00:36:49] Malcolm Collins: understand the amount you are gaslit about Native Americans and everything like that, have you ever heard about the incident of the smallpox blankets?[00:36:57] And everyone’s like-[00:36:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, that never happened, right? “Oh,[00:36:59] Malcolm Collins: yeah, this is so evil, that they gave them smallpox blankets.” Th- this, this happened during the French and Indian War at Fort Pitt, or Potomac’s War, more specifically. Fort Pitt during Potomac’s War. Mm-hmm. And the, the Potomac’s forces had killed a, a, p- settlers outside the fort, including women and children.[00:37:20] They had raided other places, killing civilians, women and children in multiple areas. And the fort was under siege when this was being discussed, and it wasn’t even... Was it carried out?[00:37:32] Simone Collins: I remember my broad conclusion from some historical account of that was like, oh, it wasn’t... There didn’t happen or it wasn’t what I thought it was.[00:37:39] Yeah.[00:37:39] Malcolm Collins: Maybe- I knew there was only two blankets is what it was. But like, then we’re- Look,[00:37:43] Simone Collins: two blankets can go a long way,[00:37:44] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but we’re told that this is like this major horrible thing that they did when we’re not told they were besieged in a fort by a group that had already wiped out the women, children, and babies of multiple other settlements, and they had no other way out, right?[00:37:58] And we’re just like, “Oh, it’s so sad.” Th- this group that was outside was baby killers. They, they had already done that. That is where we were when that happened, right? Like, this is... It, it’s just so... Like, the, the one that really got me was when you told me about the Cherokees ‘cause I always thought of like, well, at least the Trail of Tears was us just being a******s.[00:38:19] And then I learned that actually the reason why the Trail of Tears was as bad as it was is because the Cherokee chief at the time gave out all, all the contracts for managing the removal of his, of his people- Many of the[00:38:28] Simone Collins: contracts with[00:38:29] Malcolm Collins: his family[00:38:30] Simone Collins: members ...[00:38:30] Malcolm Collins: to his family members, and they stole hundreds of thousands, at, at the time, dollars.[00:38:34] I mean, a lot of money. Well,[00:38:34] Simone Collins: they yeah, I mean, it, they enriched themselves. They could have, they could have probably done more to supply the, the, the settlements that they were, that they were leaving. That[00:38:43] Malcolm Collins: the reason it was so bad was because of graft from within the community, and like, we’re just not, we’re not told why the settlers acted in this way.[00:38:51] We’re not told the, the other sides of these stories, and I just,[00:38:55] Simone Collins: it- Well, and it seems like every time we, we try to preserve native cultures, which, yeah, just, I don’t know It, we, we end up causing more harm within those cultures But like I[00:39:07] Malcolm Collins: don’t need, I don’t need, you know, Celtic culture preserved,[00:39:11] Simone Collins: right?[00:39:11] Like No, you really don’t. If Celtic culture involves- Put it in a[00:39:14] Malcolm Collins: museum ...[00:39:15] Simone Collins: violence and, and killing children and women, and[00:39:19] Malcolm Collins: dude, like get the f**k- And normalizing SA and normalizing abduction, which apparently we’re seeing in these communities, normalizing corrupt governments, right? Like, well, maybe we should be pushing back against that.[00:39:27] And, and no, it did, and I’m glad that the Celtic, that, that my ancestors joined a different cultural group.[00:39:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, like literally this, this is where I really struggle with this. But like if native cultures are systematically producing trafficking and assault and violence, those cultures need overhauls.[00:39:48] It’s not like, they’re, they’re toxic cultures. We should stop putting Vaseline on the lens through which we view native, indigenous, whatever cultures, and just collectively [00:40:00] agree they suck and either need to shape up or ship out. And even women or, or leaders within this movement are saying that, and then being systematically ignored by anyone who has the ability to help them.[00:40:11] They’re like, “Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes,” but like not doing anything. So in short, I’m kind of, this is horri- but I’m, I’m kind of glad[00:40:20][00:40:23] Simone Collins: this is, this is dark prenatalism. Like this is when you see a culture that is systematically hurting people, that is not producing human flourishing.[00:40:31] And you see that some people are getting out and shifting to other cultures and other ways and no longer identifying as that old culture. And at first when we got into this movement, I was like, “This is a tragedy. We can’t let this happen.” But I’m realizing now that that, that’s an inherently evil view.[00:40:45] It’s the same as like you know how there are those, Very remote tribes in the Amazon- Yeah ... where people are living basically similar to uncontacted tribes. And now that more and more members of those tribes are starting to learn that there are cities and that there’s antibiotics, like, these tribes are disappearing, and there’s all these researchers who are like, “This is a travesty.”[00:41:04] And you’re like, “Wait, what? So what do you actually want? You want these people to not have antibiotics, to die, like, 30 years younger?” What?[00:41:11] Malcolm Collins: To die, their children to die of things that they could have fixed.[00:41:14] Simone Collins: To die as children. And you know what? These tribes also raid other tribes and kill people all the time.[00:41:19] And so what- I love[00:41:20] Malcolm Collins: how it’s, like, illegal if it’s an uncontacted tribe. Like,[00:41:23] Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah. Oh, yes. Let’s study it. It’s fine.[00:41:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah like, ‘cause I- I’ll read anthropology papers about these tribes. And there was one where they were talking about how a guy didn’t like the woman’s kid w- and he just beat him- Yeah[00:41:36] to death against a tree for no... He’s like- Yeah ... like, a little kid. And he’s the, he’s the hunter of the tribe, so, like, he gets to do what he wants, and- Yeah ... the woman couldn’t do anything about it. No. And the tribe just had to go on living like that. No jail time ‘cause, oh, no, they get, they get to live in their special way.[00:41:49] And this woman wouldn’t wanna live like that.[00:41:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. And again, this is not- And then there was another tribe- This is, again, this, and this, you’re talking about a, a completely different region, completely different culture. This is what you get in the absence of civilization. This is not a racial thing. This is not a...[00:42:03] Look, look, like, our ancestors did stuff like this too. Yeah, you get this[00:42:06] Malcolm Collins: in, in our ancestors. You get this in Africa. You get this in South America. You[00:42:10] Simone Collins: get this- Yeah, this is, this is a, a toxic culture that hurts people. We have alternatives now It’s[00:42:17] Malcolm Collins: not a f*****g profit, Tristan But I remember another one that really got me.[00:42:18] It’s they’re studying the people, and they’re like, “Well, you’ve gotta kill a man before you’re, you’re eligible to be married,” right? Like, this is what men had to do before they’re eligible for wives. And the researchers were like, “Oh, fascinating. Fascinating.” Fu- f- gonna arrest these people. What are you talking about?[00:42:33] Simone Collins: Well, and then, you know, and then, like you said, like you pointed out, there’s that recent, like, viral TikTok thing where she, like, does this meme, and then it- she’s dead, you know, because we couldn’t figure out the jurisdictions, ‘cause in tribal lands. I, I just c- I can’t. Super sick of it. Really, really mad.[00:42:47] Really angry. And this, yeah, this was my introduction to Matt Walsh content. Thanks, Matt Walsh. You ruined Sacagawea and everything else for me.[00:42:57] Malcolm Collins: And if you wanna hear the stuff about the Comanches, which we won’t repeat in this one- Mm-mm.[00:43:00] Simone Collins: Mm-mm ...[00:43:01] Malcolm Collins: because it’s truly terrifying- Mm-hmm ... see our episode on-[00:43:04] Simone Collins: No, just, no.[00:43:05] Literally, if, if you... ‘Cause this is a, a woman’s written account of her experience which of course, if you, like, look at how people couch it, they were like, “Well, this is a very one-sided story of someone who was held hostage.”[00:43:17] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:43:17] Simone Collins: Imagine.[00:43:18] Malcolm Collins: Imagine if you said that about a Native American,[00:43:21] Simone Collins: right? Like the- I know, I know, I know.[00:43:23] But anyway, look up Rachel Parker Plummer. That’s all you need to do. You can look up, like, hostage account or Comanche Rachel Parker Plummer. Don’t, if you if you’re, especially if you’re a woman and/or someone who, who becomes kind of, like, ruined for long periods of time if they hear about harm that befell babies at any time in human history, which I’m one of those people- Don’t look this up, and just do everything you can to support thriving cultures that treat people- And I also want to point out- And raise them well.[00:43:59] [00:44:00] Support anything that protects the development cu- and cultivation of civilization. And we are kind of faltering a little bit as a society now. We’re reaching this point where there’s kind of this huge unsaid debate in, in humanity of like, “Oh, the rule of law, that’s kind of, like, for losers, right? Like, we shouldn’t be enforcing laws right now.”[00:44:20] Like there’s a famous case right now about this, this man who keeps going out and filming himself beating women, just, like, s- stranger women, people he doesn’t know, which is of course a statistical less statistically off common. His family has repeatedly tried to get this man put away begged judges because he’s a repeat offender for this kind of thing.[00:44:41] What jurisdiction is this? What ethnic groups are involved in this? I’m not gonna name his ethnicity because I’m already going on a spree against one ethnicity, and that’s not good. Okay,[00:44:51] Malcolm Collins: so you[00:44:52] Simone Collins: won’t, you won’t- You can put it up to your imagination or just look it up on X or anywhere else on the news.[00:44:58] Just, like, man who films himself beating women. You’re gonna find it. But no, his family has begged for this man to be put away. He’s not been put away. Why are we not enforcing laws anymore? Look, you put an ice cream away. Well,[00:45:10] Malcolm Collins: what I also point out, when you talk about our own ancestors acting in, when they were the Picts and stuff like this, they acted genuinely savage, right?[00:45:16] But when they Christianized and we talk about the reivers or the backwards people and we talk about them getting in these bloody fights, ripping out people’s eyeballs, stuff like this, it was always two consenting adults, right? Like, in the stories- ... that have been passed down to us, it is- It[00:45:29] Simone Collins: was civilized[00:45:31] Malcolm Collins: it was two men getting in an argument over whose horse is better. Okay. Whose wife is better. Something like that is how it always starts. Mm-hmm. It’s never, “I took someone’s baby.” In fact, we don’t have, as I’ve pointed out, a single documented case from this culture anywhere in the historical record anywhere of a grape happening of a captive person.[00:45:49] Which is, which is pretty wild considering all the other stories we have about them. Like, if, if one had happened, somebody would have wrote about it, somebody, at least slanderously, right? You know, the other people- Mm-hmm ... documented all their bad things all the time. They’re... And what I point out here is there is, like, scales of civilizational like, restrainment and evil[00:46:09] And we can... I, I actually don’t mind. I think if you have a civilization with extreme violence between consenting adults, like I’m, I’m actually totally okay with that. Whatever. Like, I, I don’t see that as particularly bad. If, if, if that’s where the United States goes, if that’s where certain cultures- Consenting adults[00:46:23] Simone Collins: in the United[00:46:24] Malcolm Collins: States go- Okay, fine. Fine ... whatever. Fine. But like I’m, I’m okay with bringing the gladiators back. That, that could be entertaining. Like, whatever. Well, th-[00:46:30] Simone Collins: yeah, but Roman gladiators were largely not consenting.[00:46:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, if you did it in a consenting way where it’s like people- Sure[00:46:36] signing up for it. I mean, is that not what sports are these days when you look at people[00:46:41] Simone Collins: who are in fighting? No, that, that is literally what sports are. Yeah, especially contact sports. It’s, it’s already something we know and love, so.[00:46:43] Malcolm Collins: Ho- honest- honestly, I think if we, we came back with like actual gladiators today, it would be like less immoral than the Olympic gymnastics where it’s like teenage girls were doing this too.[00:46:53] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, o- obviously. Like all the, all the, the child sports stuff is, is pretty-[00:46:58] ...[00:46:58] Simone Collins: Dubious.[00:46:58] Malcolm Collins: But l- like that I’m like, “We, we should probably ban that.” Ban, ban the Ol- Olympic gymnastics. And I, I would pr- I would say no Olympic gymnastics. Just off, off. Or just[00:47:07] Simone Collins: just age, a- age minimums I think is, is a little more important.[00:47:11] Malcolm Collins: No, because then they’d still start training at ultra-young ages. God,[00:47:13] Simone Collins: you’re right.[00:47:15] Malcolm Collins: You’re, you’re ruining somebody’s life for something so trivial.[00:47:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:47:18] Malcolm Collins: And, and the things that they go through, like going through their sets with broken legs and stuff like this, it’s like Jesus[00:47:24] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:47:25] Malcolm Collins: I, I can’t-[00:47:26] Simone Collins: Anyway, though, yeah, it’s, but anyway, i- if you care, if you care about humanity thriving, you care about civilization of, and rule of law, I think. I think this is u- underrated. And I’m, I’m reading the, I think[00:47:38] Malcolm Collins: we need to stop pointlessly glorifying the ancestry of specific groups of people that were... Like I- I’m okay with glorifying the ancestry of groups that actually did a lot for civilization, right?[00:47:51] Like, that aren’t my[00:47:52] Simone Collins: own people. Yeah, but celebrate incremental improvements. Don’t celebrate just like, I don’t know, what you think you used to be.[00:47:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And [00:48:00] I think that the way that the urban monoculture relates to identity is forcing Native American groups and cultures into these really sort of, you know, round the fences positions that are really deleterious for the people living in them.[00:48:15] Well,[00:48:15] Simone Collins: look, it’s clearly not working for them when you look at rates of poverty, not to mention the violence and abuse, but also extremely low fertility rates. High fertility rates in modern times come from cultures who are proud of who they are, who are thriving, who feel like they’re in a good position to raise kids well, and also who themselves experienced such great childhoods that they wanna pass that on.[00:48:38] We’re s- getting a pretty strong signal from N- American Indians and Alaska Natives that you know what? They maybe didn’t get such a great upbringing. They maybe don’t feel like they’ve been set up to thrive. They maybe don’t feel like they are super excited to pass on their culture to anyone. And that[00:48:54] Malcolm Collins: requires to fix not just grants, which is what they always ask for, more money for the agencies, more money for the programs.[00:48:59] Well, that[00:48:59] Simone Collins: means the culture is broken. The culture is broken.[00:49:02] Malcolm Collins: Well, that destroys them. We’ve talked about the long-term intergenerational effects of UBI, right? Like, nothing does more to damage a culture than that. Yeah. When we look at the Sam Altman study and you gave people $1,000 for a, a month at, for three years, and the people who were given this money had less money than people who weren’t.[00:49:17] Yeah. Now imagine if you did that not for a three-year period, but intergenerationally. Imagine the effects are cumulative. This is where you see things in some of these groups, where you see unemployment rates of like 45%.[00:49:28] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, clearly the things that have been done to Indigenous Americans since American colonialism hit aren’t great.[00:49:37] But-[00:49:38] Malcolm Collins: But I think we oversell the extent to tho- of those things that are exclusively the fault of the outsiders rather than their own leadership.[00:49:49] Simone Collins: Yeah. A, a, an extremely damaging, it’s an, an extremely damaging culture that has, has, has not been permitted to progress. We allowed our own cultures largely to progress.[00:50:01] And, and stopping a culture intentionally from doing that, putting them in a literal reservation, a little human zoo where they are just left to stagnate is- It, it’s,[00:50:14] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, even consider this from the perspective of European culture. Imagine if I said, “I want to do and live and treat my wife and family and, and practice my religion the way we did in colonial America.”[00:50:26] Most people would be like that’s gonna be, like, super toxic, bro.” But, like, we’re trapping their culture at that stage. We’re not letting it evolve.[00:50:35] Simone Collins: Yeah. I, yeah, and I, I think we kind of... I, I probably had inklings of this before. You know, I didn’t. I didn’t allow myself to think about this until I read about Rachel’s, or I heard about Rachel’s account first and then Mel- Matt Walsh thing, and then read about it and, and then I was like, “You know what?[00:50:50] No.” ‘Cause if you come for an infant, if you hurt an infant, you’re going to hell.[00:50:56] Malcolm Collins: I mean, if you’re, if you’re regularly practicing smex slavery, like, that’s, that’s, a, a- and that’s not a good thing. That’s something that, that was popular in many of these regions, as we’ve seen from the historic accounts.[00:51:09] And obviously, if you can’t address it, the way they used to do things needs to be changed or was downright diabolically evil. They, it can’t be addressed.[00:51:20] Simone Collins: Yeah, and you don’t hurt babies. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care how much I’ve previously loved anyone, you hurt babies. If I am equipped with means of ending your life abruptly, I will do it.[00:51:31] Simone, it[00:51:31] Malcolm Collins: is very, very important that you do not study historic or modern African culture.[00:51:37] Simone Collins: I will not. I will not. Look, there’s a lot of history I just am not allowed to learn ever since I had... Look, before I had kids, this didn’t affect me. So there, like, mama bear syndrome, I cannot e- describe this to you.[00:51:52] Like, it’s, you know how, like, the most dangerous animal you could possibly encounter is a mama bear with babies? [00:52:00] Because she will... Like, that’s a, it’s like a hormonal thing. The, it’s, it should be, it should be given a strange Latin medical diagnosis because it, it is, like, the most... It, I have felt it more severe than any other form of diagnosis than I have ever been given.[00:52:18] Like, ever. And I’m talking, like, other medical conditions. Like, you have scarlet fever, which yes, I did have. No, I didn’t feel scarlet fever as bad as I have felt mama bear syndrome. It is really something, so. You hurt babies, you go. You’re out. Bye-bye.[00:52:39] Malcolm Collins: I love you, Simone. American Indians. Bye ... and, and yeah, I had always thought that this was funny when they’re like, “This group is undergoing so much violence.”[00:52:47] And it’s like w- well, usually-[00:52:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, I mean, I think anyone who hears it is like, “Well, wait, I thought that, like, almost...” Like, I think I actually just read randomly, unrelated to this, this episode, which I researched a couple days back, like, just another, like, “Well, 96% of sexual violence comes from a known partner.”[00:53:05] I’m like, “Huh.”[00:53:07] Malcolm Collins: Well, I just, I... I’ll, I’ll tell you honestly what I imagined when I first heard this statistic, and I don’t know why this image popped in my head.[00:53:13] Simone Collins: No.[00:53:13] Malcolm Collins: Is I thought it was Native Ameri- I think because they showed, like, an a, a video clip of this at one point when I was younger and they were doing it, is Native American women hitchhiking and then being picked up by white drivers.[00:53:25] That, that’s, that’s what was, that’s who was doing this. ‘Cause that’s the video I think they used to show for, like, this sort of violence on, like, Canadian whatever, like,[00:53:34] Simone Collins: Is this some PSA you saw as a kid?[00:53:35] Malcolm Collins: No. I don’t know. I saw this PSA. Other people can tell me where I maybe got this image from, but, like, every time I heard that statistic, that’s what I assumed.[00:53:42] I was like it’s white-”[00:53:44] Simone Collins: The hitchhiking ... “[00:53:44] Malcolm Collins: people picking up hitchhikers.” The hitchhiking. And then, and then I thought about it from, like, a more base perspective, and I was like, “What the... Obviously, it’s not.”[00:53:55] Simone Collins: You’ve done a lot of hitchhiking. I’ve never hitchhiked. I, I, I... Look, I was extremely risky in my travel choices as a young woman traveling solo, but I did not hitchhike, and you hitchhiked your way across Europe by yourself, sleeping in ditches on the side of the road.[00:54:13] I, I can’t believe that we’re still alive. It’s kind of a Christmas miracle. Really goes to show that the vast majority of humans out there are good people. Mm-hmm. But again, in, in, in a small tribal environment- Well, no ... all it takes is one- It depends on where[00:54:27] Malcolm Collins: you are. No. There was the case of the woman who decided to prove that we’re all the same, who was gonna hitchhike across Europe and the Middle East, and she was found raped to death within 10 miles of hitting the first Muslim majority country.[00:54:39] Like, this, the, the cultures aren’t the same. They’re different, and if you pretend you are the same, you’re going to victimize the people who you force to live under the same laws- Mm-hmm ... when the, the underlying cultural group is different. Like, how can we understand that, like, w- one culture is different, it should be preserved, and it’s like, well, okay, if they’re different- Those cultures have got to go[00:54:57] it should be preserved, and then how are they different? Even[00:54:59] Simone Collins: the Old Testament is so freaking clear about this. Like, mm-mm. You don’t... That’s, you don’t do that. It’s not, no, no. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.[00:55:09] All right.[00:55:11] Malcolm Collins: Anyway, the, the spicy episode. Again,[00:55:13] Simone Collins: I, I- Yeah. So here’s, here’s the little s- Yeah, I’m never gonna be able to run for political office again, and I’m so freaking happy about it.[00:55:19] I’m never doing that again.[00:55:20] Malcolm Collins: No,[00:55:20] Simone Collins: I[00:55:20] Malcolm Collins: think th- that- That was,[00:55:21] Simone Collins: that was so awful. Ugh, I hated that so much. I hated every second of[00:55:25] Malcolm Collins: it ... the, the, the key point here is we’re not making any sort of ethnic claims here. No, we’re not. We’re saying, we’re, we’re not making even a, a, a claim that we’re from a culturally superior group.[00:55:35] Simone Collins: We’re not.[00:55:35] Malcolm Collins: Like, we’re making a claim[00:55:37] Simone Collins: that- Like, literally saying[00:55:39][00:55:42] Simone Collins: is trash and needs to go and is backward and abusive is, is political suicide. Thank[00:55:49] Malcolm Collins: you. No, the part that it is in the same way our own ancestors were, just everybody knows not to venerate the[00:55:54] Simone Collins: ancestors. No, but it’s okay because we’re white, so of course we were saved and we’re normal.[00:55:56] Yeah, it’s oh,[00:55:57] Malcolm Collins: of course the Celts were evil. Yeah. ‘[00:55:58] Simone Collins: Cause we’re, we’re [00:56:00] Europeans. There. But the point[00:56:03] Malcolm Collins: I’m making here is we’re not making a unique claim about them. We’re making a claim about people within this stage of the civilization[00:56:08] Simone Collins: as a- Well, yeah, we’re making a, a claim about civilization and the, the huge lack of good morals it takes to, to literally impede, to retard a group of people, a culture from a- adapting to more civilized formats when given the opportunity.[00:56:30] They have had... Th- th- things could have gone so differently and they, they, it’s really unfortunate that, that they, they didn’t[00:56:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well and, and, and, and keep in mind even when you look ... Well anyway, great episode Simone. I’m glad that you looked into this and I’m surprised to see you so radicalized on this particular topic.[00:56:55] I might cut[00:56:56] Simone Collins: out this- No, babies. Ba- no. The, babies. You hurt babies, you’re gone. It does not matter who you are. Does not matter who you are. You’re gone. Straight to jail. Okay, so the[00:57:06] Malcolm Collins: Comanche story is what got you? Okay.[00:57:08] Simone Collins: Yeah. No I’ll do ... Comanches, foom They go, “Mm-mm.”[00:57:17] Malcolm Collins: All right, Simone. It’s been good talking with you.[00:57:20] And I will have to heavily edit this to make sure it’s appropriate for YouTube- ... and doesn’t share too much, you know, information. But I think it is directionally a useful correction in terms of how we think about things as a society so that we can actually begin to address these issues, rather than using them as cudgels for politics against groups that they’re really not related to.[00:57:43] Simone Collins: Yeah. And thank you for your tactful editing. I think it came out when the Chris Williamson roundtable came out and someone else was editing my statements. People were like, “I thought Malcolm was the crazy one.” Ah. “What? It turns out Simone is the unhinged person all along,” because I didn’t have you to make me look less like an inhuman monster.[00:58:09] So thank you, dear husband, for everything that you do to keep me- Thanks for the[00:58:14] Malcolm Collins: editing job you’ve given me on this one.[00:58:17] Simone Collins: You can... Look, I stand by everything I say It’s true[00:58:26] Malcolm Collins: Okay. What are we... Steak for dinner, right? Or did we forget to take it out?[00:58:29] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s fine, but it’s gonna take it’s gonna take some, some time to thaw.[00:58:33] It was in the deep freezer.[00:58:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, okay. Well, what are the kids having?[00:58:36] Simone Collins: You can make glo- we can do gyoza lasagna. We can do that sweet pork rib- Oh, can I do[00:58:42] Malcolm Collins: quesadillas?[00:58:44] Simone Collins: Oh, with your new cheese?[00:58:47] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:58:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. If I’m doing cheese, do you want me to just do queso instead?[00:58:55] Malcolm Collins: No, let’s do quesadillas.[00:58:57] Simone Collins: You want a quesadilla tonight?[00:58:58] Mm. So it shall be. I love you.[00:59:04] Yeah. Okay. I love you.[00:59:08] Malcolm Collins: I love you too.[00:59:08] Simone Collins: Thank you for tolerating my extreme levels of hatred.[00:59:12] Bye. Bye.[00:59:15] Malcolm Collins: Sorry, Simone. That was... It, it looks like it’s about to rain. It,[00:59:20] Simone Collins: it will. We’re gonna have a thunderstorm[00:59:23] Malcolm Collins: at any time. Okay. That would not have been... ‘Cause that took a long time to move in.[00:59:26] Simone Collins: Oh.[00:59:26] Was it two-[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: Four large boxes.[00:59:29] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh.[00:59:30] Malcolm Collins: And a toy it looks like, that you got somebody a toy, a stuffy?[00:59:34] Simone Collins: The axolotls came.[00:59:35] Yeah. Where are they now? The children cannot see them.[00:59:38] Malcolm Collins: They’re on the table downstairs- In the sunroom ...[00:59:40] Simone Collins: in[00:59:40] Malcolm Collins: their bag.[00:59:41] Simone Collins: In the sunroom.[00:59:42] Malcolm Collins: In the sunroom?[00:59:43] Simone Collins: Okay. Just had to make sure.[00:59:45] Look, Tosi, he earned it for playing crime scene cleanup with me, so yeah, that’s... And, and Titan will earn the second one if she puts the Magna-Tiles away every day for a week after playing with them.[00:59:59] ‘Cause [01:00:00] typically she just leaves them out on the table that we need to eat food. Just a giant pile of toys Anyway,[01:00:12] Malcolm Collins: So what’s really cool, and I didn’t notice this until I was going through the story and I’m so excited to run this tracked episode-[01:00:20] Simone Collins: Oh, gosh ...[01:00:20] Malcolm Collins: is I decided to take all of the numbers from the...[01:00:24] Because if you notice, there’s something very strange about that list of, Names ... so and so begot so and so begot so and so begot so and so.[01:00:34] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[01:00:34] Malcolm Collins: In the early list in the Bible. You might not have known this because I think a lot of people turn off the moment they get to one of those. Yeah.[01:00:41] But it lists the age of the parent when the child was born.[01:00:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, and like, whoever it is, I’m sorry, who is the, the 12 kids of Israel, did it, like, in a span of six years at age, like, 80-something. So it’s kinda weird, right?[01:01:01] Malcolm Collins: So, well, no, but what that allows you to do that a normal genealogy with birth and death ages wouldn’t, is construct an exact timeline.[01:01:12] Y- you see, normally, if it was a normal genealogy and you just had age lived, right?[01:01:18] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[01:01:20] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’m actually asking right now. Yeah, genealogies, ancient and modern- We’ll, we’ll go into it more when we do the episode on it. Yeah, it’s done literally nowhere else in the Bible or in any any Mesopotamian records that we have.[01:01:34] Simone Collins: Hmm.[01:01:35] Malcolm Collins: Nobody records the age of the parent at the birth of the kid. But what, what that does is... Do you understand what I mean when I say it allows you to create an exact timeline?[01:01:44] Simone Collins: No. I don’t, I don’t.[01:01:46] Malcolm Collins: Okay. So if you just had a list of names and how long they lived- Mm-hmm ... and I was trying to map that to a civilizational growth or something like that, or a number of distinct populations, you wouldn’t actually have a timeline because you don’t know if somebody lives 800 years, when did they have their kid, right?[01:02:05] So all you can do is, you, well, you can’t put them back to back because then you’re gonna get a timeline that’s way too long. So you just have to make, like, a huge guess. But if you know the age of they were when the kid started to exist, and then you know the kid that lived X long and then had a kid, and you know they lived X long and then had a kid- Mm[01:02:22] you can create a full timeline of events that lasts- Mm ... 1,000, multiple thousand years. And then we can take that timeline, and if we use Catalhoyuk’s founding as the start of the timeline, which was my hypothesized E like the story in the Adam and Eve story you get an exact timeline where nine of the births and deaths match exact major historic events within very short windows, like decades-long windows over a period of thousands of years.[01:02:55] And what’s weirder is at the end you get another interpretation of what the flood could be which is while the flood is real and a separate event that I think happened at a separate time I think what we’re seeing here is a change in civilization being noted. Mm ... and this is when we have the, the largest change from, well, really in the way humans lived from agriculture until like full civilization systems was at exactly this point where the Noah story takes place.[01:03:28] Hmm ... which I was really shocked about. I like, I like going into these things and being like, there is no way that that’s chance. That’s absolutely crazy just to plug in the numbers and see if they match anything.[01:03:38] Simone Collins: That’s so cool. That is so cool. No. Okay. Save, save, save the rest for the episode. I’m super excited for this.[01:03:44] Okay. I, I hope we’re gonna record it soon. Okay we’ll get into mine. We only have a little bit of time to record this, so just let me talk a little bit to begin with to fit stuff in and then, then start joining in.[01:03:55] Malcolm Collins: Okay, Simone.[01:03:57] Simone Collins: Okay.[01:03:59] Speaker 5: [01:04:00] Rubble’s house? Yes. Can you believe you built something so big by yourself? Yeah[01:04:14] Speaker 7: Maybe you need to be creative, Tosi Torso in. Torso in. Mommy! We’ll have to use the magnets now This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe