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Welcome to the new books network. While many have noted the general Jewishness of the Gospel of John, few have given it a seat at the ideologically crowded table with ancient Jewish practice and belief until now. Join us as we speak with Wally Sirafesi, whose book, John Within Judaism, offers a reading of the Gospel of John as an expression of the fluid and flexible nature of Jewish identity in Greco-Roman antiquity. You're listening to new books and biblical studies a channel of the new books network, and I'm your host, Michael Morales.
Wally Sirafesi, obtained his PhD from the University of Oslo where he is visiting researcher in the Faculty of Theology, is published on range of topics related to the New Testament, ancient Judaism, and early Christianity, including verbal aspects and synoptic parallels. Wally, welcome to new books and biblical studies. Thanks, Michael. Good to be here.
So how did you get interested in reading the New Testament from a Jewish perspective or within Judaism? Yeah, that's a great question. It's hard to know where to start. Academic journey has been a long one.
I suppose it's always interested me to read really any text, not just New Testament, but within its historical context. I'm a big history guy. I'm a historical context guy. I mean, I even went to undergrad with my degree.
I was in history education, sort of my thing. So I've always been interested in sort of the largest surrounding of the ancient world, especially as I got into New Testament studies. So, you know, but it really wasn't until I deeply engaged with the world of early Judaism, particularly as literature and even a bit of its archaeology as well, that I really started to get interested in early Judaism for itself, not even just as sort of a background for the world. But just to understand sort of this world that we call second temple Judaism.
And so I mean, that world is so rich in terms of its sources, all the problems of course that are there too, in terms of how to actually study it, all the questions that are there methodologically. And so the more I got into it, the more I was working on my master's degree, I got to some coursework in second temple period Judaism. I knew that I wanted to kind of make my living there somehow. So I was interested in the Bible of course as well, I was interested in the Testament.
But it wasn't really until I started my doctoral work under the supervision of a guy named Anders Runison, where I started to get interacting a little bit more with this idea of reading the New Testament, not just against the background of early Judaism or second temple period Judaism, but actually as a part of it, right, as an expression of sort of the intense, you know, diversity that existed in this period, and of course, as the period of Jesus, the period of the time in which the gospels were written, especially the gospel of John. So, sort of, you know, I think it started to be an interesting context, interest in history, and then the more I got into it, the more I just, I think really understood it, at least from my perspective, and everybody agrees with me, of course, but from my perspective, I think it's a very interesting thing. I mean, it's also a really good question, because I think there are some parts of the New Testament that are less contentious when it comes to how well or how comfortably does this particular document sit within its second temple period Jewish context. So it was less debate about the gospel of Matthew, for instance, I mean, there's some of course, and how it fits within this sort of time period in this body literature, but less so.
The gospel of John is a little bit more contentious because it has these really difficult passages to interpret when you have Jesus sort of saying some really nasty things about a group of people called Huy U Daioi, or the Jews, and so for a long time, people have acknowledged that John is in some way indebted to a second temple period Jewish context, and there's no doubt about that, right, that John sort of sits in that world. And so the most part scholarship has suggested that John, you know, through its narrative construction is sort of on the way out, so to say, right, so it's part of this idea of the so-called parting of the way between Judaism and Christianity and John is kind of encouraging readers to think now, you know, maybe the John and by nature, the joining Jesus is sort of in Judaism at this point in time. Well, it's trying to move its readers outside of it. But I wanted to question that.
I wanted to suggest that, well, if we really consider this issue of diversity, right, within second temple period Judaism both before and after the time of Jesus, both before and after the time of the New Testament, then actually the gospel of John as well. Even with its harsh criticism of the Eudioi or the Jews and with its, you know, some of its difficult passages actually does fit within what we know about how ancient Jews constructed their identities in very different ways sometimes, even competing, right, in very sort of contentious ways, but still as a part of this, this milieu. So, so, you know, again, not everybody agrees with me, you know, but that's also what makes it fun and it's also what makes it really important when it comes to the study of the gospel of John. So, you know, after five of your work focuses on the ancestral land in John's gospel, would you rehearse for us some of your findings here.
Yeah, yeah, so, you know, with this, this category of the quote unquote the land, you know, so what I tried to do in the book, I think readers will get a really quick glimpse of is I try to understand the Jewish people or sort of the Jewish nation quote unquote as just like any other people group in antiquity, right, so we've sort of been in the work of Roman world. You have all these different groups of people, all these ethnic, so to say, that constructed their ideas about what it meant to be part of an ethnic of an ethnic group and they're in general about four different categories that sort of cohered or that, you know, ethnic identity sort of cohered around in the ancient world. And ideas about an ancestral land was one of them right so we see lots of other groups thinking about the what does it mean to have this kind of attachment to an ancestral land. And in general, I mean, again there's lots of variation but in general if you look at the broader world of the Mediterranean, Eastern Mediterranean you have lots of groups thinking differently depending on where they are both geographically and also where they stand politically as well in terms of who's controlling their land, right, and so you have sometimes you have this idea of a quote unquote homeland religion that is constructed where you have, you know, really strong ideas about, you know, having a statehood and a national cult that is not just sort of something that you can access anywhere in the world but it's really it's it's land based friends all these kind of ideas about what does it mean to be attached to a land that is sort of nationally or state state kind of state based sort of say, but then you have an alternative or kind of a different way of constructing one's attachment to the land and or this idea of land and that's what it was sometimes called the sport or sort of the sport form of religious expression and so within this kind of construction of identity the land takes can take on a wholly, wholly different perspective.
So in some contexts you have some DS sport context that is you have the birth of what we sometimes call apocalyptic literature or in other words, this idea that you can access your ancestral land and cult in a way that is not actually concretely tied to the actual land as real political territory you can access it anywhere the gods start to move around become more portable in that sense right, so we see that in Greco Roman text not just Jewish ones we see this in Jewish ones as well, of course, but if you had that kind of basic landscape in in this period of time both Jews are doing this and and non Jews as well. I suggested that well john could be up to the same thing right so let's look at what john is doing with this idea of the ancestral Jewish land for the long time scholars have suggested especially based on john chapter. Is it john's rating that's a little while we have this idea of my kingdom is not of this world Jesus says in his engagement with pilot right and so for long time people just suggested what a land just doesn't mean anything to the join in Jesus right i mean john is just sort of off doing his spiritual thing without any real interest in this category of ancestral land. And I've suggested that no I mean certainly john is trying to re territory lies or reconceive of what does it mean to be attached to an ancestral land certainly he's not doing it in a way that is somehow un-Jewish or in a sort of new Christian kind of idea of spiritualizing of the idea of land he's been in a way that takes into account a diasporic form of Jewish identity right and so even if you look this is also where some of the early rabbinic literature is helpful we have this idea of the land or the world to come right or in other second temple period Jewish literature you have ideas of a sort of an apocalyptusized or an apocalyptic land or apocalyptic temple those kinds of things where God and land are reconceived or reimagined.
So that's what I suggested that john is doing john fits in the sort of de-sporic movement of reconceiving of the idea of land the land of Israel that is. But he's doing it in a way or the gospel is doing it in a way where real political territory is not important you still have key ideas like you know Jesus being the king of Israel and these kinds of ideas as well. But what the joy energy seems to be up to is conceiving of access to the land and access to the god of Israel in ways that would be relevant and accessible to those with the outside of the land for whatever reason whether it's because of the destruction of the temple or you know other kinds of displacement types of context. So that's chapter five.
That is John's gospel relate to the temple and synagogue. Yeah, so those two ideas are connected temple and synagogue but I think we're talking about separately. So within the context of the temple has gotten a lot a lot of attention right so especially in john chapter two we have this idea of Jesus saying that destroy this temple and I will raise it up again three days and then the narrator makes that comment right that he was referring to the temple of his body right and so interpreters have really latched on to this kind of idea that john has a temple Christology right that the temple is really important for understanding john's which is true I think that's absolutely true. And it's fundamentally linked to that temple Christology and a lot of scholarship I think is the idea that well Jesus is somehow replacing the temple so the replacement theology kind of built into this oftentimes tied to other certain concepts like super session is or Christian superstition is where john has in mind this new kind of religious movement that what we call Christianity or not is somehow distinct from Judaism.
It's somehow replaces it's somehow better than Judaism and all the Judaism has to offer with regard to the temple. And I suggested that that's not the case and we can go really conveniently to a an ancient Jewish thinker called by low by low that was well known philosopher from I was in Egypt and in some of his writings you have actually three different kind of ideas about what constitutes temple right and of course I was writing in a DS port context right he's not in India he doesn't have daily access to to the temple some scholars suggest that he actually never even made it to Jerusalem like others have suggested he made at least one trip to Jerusalem himself so someone who's a very key Jewish thinker but also removed from the temple. But he didn't think of the temple of course as the real concrete building right made with with human hands but of course he can think about the temple as the community of the of the fake ball or believers in the god of Israel or the people of Israel and then he can also think of the of the soul right as the house of God right so there are all these ways that I'm following himself and see this reflected in some other sources to that Jews thought about sacred space or sanctuary space more specifically in very different ways and not to the exclusion right now to the replacement of the actual real temple in Jerusalem right and so I suggested that even absolutely John has this very important framework this temple framework through which to understand Jesus and his mission is to find identity all these kinds of things that Jesus is doing this also in tandem or in complimentary fashion with the temple that's actually standing in Jerusalem he can still call it for example his father's house right if the temple didn't mean anything to Jesus he wouldn't call it his father's house at least that's my own orientation perspective so yeah and so there's some other complicated things that especially when it comes around John chapter four when Jesus is engaged with the Samaritan woman and he's talking about true worship not being in Jerusalem or on this mountain for instance the mountain kerosene but I think it's it's reading into the gospel of John a Adventist or replacement theology that arrives at this conclusion that Jesus is not the new temple that replaces the old rather than actually saying what the text said texts never to mention it never use any of that kind of language. So I kind of filled it out in the chapter six and long chapter.
So, it's got to kind of read some details there but I try to push against replacement theology especially in in chapter six with Jesus and temple. But but on the spon on synagogue side on the synagogue side of things the synagogue or that idea of us synagogue has played a really important role also particularly with the historical interpretation of John right and so the so called Japan and community Again, so that theory goes that kind of stands behind on that circle level, stands behind the gospel of John. And so in various kinds of ways the synagogue has sort of been a stand-in for thinking about Judaism as a whole, right? So that when you see these passages or three times in the gospel of John, John uses this really interesting term.
Only John uses it, but apocinical goes towards various forms. So they have been expelled or kicked out of or put out of the synagogue. Where people have suggested, well, because John has those passages, the gospel must be sort of anti-cinnagogue, or somehow Christ believers are being kicked out of synagogue, therefore they've been kicked out of Judaism, right? And so what I've tried to suggest based on recent research into synagogue studies is that actually that's not the case at all.
If we understand that what John is interested in is a particular kind of synagogue, or in what I call the public assembly synagogue, if we understand how public synagogues work as institutions, these places are full of conflict, left and right, full of diverse interpretations of Torah, they're diverse institutions through what John seems to be interested in is certainly recounting or expressing some sort of conflict, but it's conflict within a public assembly. There's differences over the person of Jesus. Some agree with them, some don't. There's contention.
There's a contentious politics that are there, and Christ followers are being whatever, you know, whatever reason or however you want to interpret are being put outside of that, but not outside of Judaism, but outside of the public assembly. But then this kind of moves into another interpretation then, where Christ followers kicked out of the synagogue could also form their identities and their associations in other kinds of ways, right? And so this is where we have also, it's important to sort of unpack other diverse kinds of synagogues, right? There's not just the public assembly type, there's also synagogues formed around other kinds of identity markers.
So which are Jewish through and through? So there's not somehow one is more Jewish than the other, one is Jewish and one is unJewish. So in kick out of a synagogue, just meant you were losing the battle for influence within the public assembly, not that you were losing your Jewish identity. So I think this helps kind of reconceive two key institutions, Temple and Synagogue, within a Jewish framework for John.
And yes, there's conflict, there's renegotiation, there's all these kinds of things that scholars have seen for a long time, but there's really no reason, unless you're imposing a later Christian theological perspective onto the gospel of God, there's really no reason to read it outside of Judaism, with every reason to read it within, I think. All you can tell us about any other projects you're working on? Yeah, sure, thanks for asking. So the gospel of John, this work on the gospel of John was my dissertation, revised PhD dissertation, published as a book.
And so now I've been sort of neck deep into another project, and actually the results of this project are coming out this year. With Fortress Press, it's a history of Jews and Christians in the village of Capernaum. So a regional New Testament will kind of know that village has an important village in Galilee, that was important to Jesus, but it's also really important to Jews and Christians living there for centuries after Jesus. And so this book works through the archaeology and the literary sources to try to piece together what we can, what we can, about the history, particularly Jewish Christian interactions from the first century, from the first century, from the from the time of Jesus, all the way through the emergence of Islam in the Eastern Mediterranean in the seventh century.
So really fun project, I really enjoyed it. That one's also wrapping up here, and then we'll be published in October. While it's been a delight hearing about your work, thank you for being with us. Thank you so much Michael, really happy to be here and thanks for the opportunity to talk about it.
Friends, you've been listening to New Books in Billicle Studies, a channel of the New Books Network. Until next time, goodbye.