Yo, what's going on everybody at your boy? Devon J and we're tuned in ice born radio look at this guy with the radio voice I'll let your boy. We are as you just said twice born radio in this another episode now I pray that you guys are well as you listen to this and also that you have subscribed if you have a subscriber yet What is happening? What are you doing?
What are you waiting? We've been giving you consistent? Content for all of about six weeks like we've been going hard in the pain for six of Years I'm going back and listen to one of our early episodes that I haven't reposted here and my voice was way deeper Kind of like how it sounded right now. It's kind of long speaking of the Orchestra, okay, but I have a theory I have a theory we were very tired when we were doing those episodes What we know?
We well that depends it depends if the energy drink slash sour gummy sugar Snacks that we were eating had kicked in bro. I don't so I mean we're here It's wise more but we when we used to start our podcast we would go to 7-eleven and I don't even know what our plan was a Whole our plan was a whole it was as if though we went trick or treating When playing the plan was to eat all of this During the yep during the episode and by the time we set up and we shopped and we would start recording at like 11 p.m. It would be like really wild energy drink up and we recorded at the church Well, I hope so the 7-eleven was next door Correct And then we recorded at second there's a 7-eleven around the corner. Yeah, we should be sponsored this this okay 7-eleven you guys need to sponsor a matter of fact speaking of which I have almost 6,711 points I think I deserve a sponsorship Honestly, I had well over eight That's not okay.
Well, you've a seven-eleven by your house. Literally. I it would take me three minutes to walk out of my front door and get to 7-eleven That'd be a problem. Yeah, it's a problem for my household honestly, you know, yeah All my kids, you know when they when they disappear for a minute and when they come back I'm like oh Oh guys, I'm telling you right now.
It's rambles. It feels this is what they bring and that's the only thing he drinks What is it? It's like a Ricky thing. It's a Ricky.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like cherry limeade cherry limeade Arizona it's a cherry limeade Arizona, but it is sparkling so it's not like you know normal Arizona's are just you know They have no fizz no bubbles. No nothing this gives you the soda vibe. Yes with zero percent sugar red dye five and Squirrel bits or something in it.
It's real crazy. There's sugar in this. Yes It's two servings too. It's absolutely sugar in there.
It's nothing but sugar I'm still baffled that you can drink that and see straight It's 22 ounce, baby. You know, it's not the energy drink The center living by my house though has has like really rebranded everything to send a lemon brand so good They're not they're not accepting a lot of like Gatorade and all that kind of stuff now now They have the center living brand like up front. They were playing a fine the original. Yes, yes exactly You have find the Gatorade stuff now.
Well get ready because they're getting ready to well. Let me not get off topic anyway Talk about that we can talk about that but it's good to reminisce with that being said we are officially I don't know what episode this is but we are at the end of April. So whenever we're recording this is the last podcast for April and We started this in we stepped back up again. I think in February, right?
March January. Oh, it was after the fire. I think very yeah, it was late January Okay, so y'all listen we on the we have our rhythm now. We have our rhythm and we're gonna start doing some extra stuff We don't have you guys don't know but we've been having guests on the show almost every recording in fact one of them is here right now And she's in the background and one of the things we're gonna do is start releasing some video clips for you to see that every time we record We have a live in studio audience that cooks bacon Unloads groceries opens mail makes random dishes in the back and does not laugh at a single joke.
Nothing is funny So not good for the laugh track. Not good for the laugh track. No, not at all not at all But uh today we have a good subject. Jay.
What are we talking about today? Manhood so the um the title of it is Um, what makes a man the title of it is what makes a man ultimately the conversation is surrounding manhood Um, but I thought that it would be a good idea to um, you know really talk about manhood, you know from from the perspective of of two pastors who um obviously have Men that they are leading yes as well as you know are trying to be better men themselves and you know obviously we both have Um perspectives of what manhood was growing up, right? So we have that compared to to you know, what it is now and you know are we meeting that even that standard of what we thought manhood was supposed to be And you know, we'll get into all of that. So definitely manhood.
There's a lot to kind of Unfold here. Yeah, um, but let's start with this. Let's start with that that initial portion of the conversation So I'll give I'll give a little background. You can give a little background okay on um what you saw from a Young man's perspective what you saw as manhood or okay thought manhood all entailed all right.
You go first So I'll go first um essentially for me. Um, I you know, you guys know my story. I was pretty much raised by my father Only went to my mother's house every other weekend. Um, I did have a stepfather at my mother's house For most of my adolescent years.
Um, however spent a lot of time with you know kind of like the village Right in my family and I would see my father interact with other men off it Um, my uncle's cousins. I have cousins that are like just a couple years younger than my dad as a matter of fact um So my grandmother my grandmother had eight children and uh, she had those eight children over the span of 20-some odd years So That's why I end up with cousins that are just you know five and six years younger than my father Um, my father's also the second two youngest of his siblings. So, um, with him having seven siblings and obviously most of them older than him um, they were further along in uh in their processes of you know family and all of that so my dad had Um, not just his own father to look up to he also had his sister's husband's, you know Um, that he would hang around and stuff like that. Mm Long story short so for me as a young man growing up in the 80s, um, my depiction of a man was really just uh kind of seeing the men stand around on a circle smilted cigarettes drinking beer Um, and just talking talking man stuff, right?
Um, Ultimately, there's vulgarities. There's jokes. There's there's all these different things that are happening Um, but the one consistent was the cigarettes and the beer Which was really interesting that and the loud laughter outburst right the loud outwards of laughter Um now that being said, I also saw all of these men taking care of their families. I saw them all um, you know Doing their own lawnwork or their kids doing their lawnwork Um working on their own vehicles going over to each other's house to help each other work on vehicles Um, you know my dad is an electrician by trade.
I have a cousin who's a plumber by trade Um one of my uncles was uh, he could have been a mechanic if he wanted to but he was very gifted in the ways of mechanics um, like automobile mechanics. Um And so we have always had also had a uncle who was a, um, a carpenter Um by general So, you know, we've always I've always seen men as hands-on. Yeah, and working Um and always building something putting something together and you know, honestly I saw men who I would say actually got a lot of fulfillment out of the things that they built loved it Who used to take um old gasoline barrels and he used to make, um, barbecue pits Nice. Yes, he would just leave barbecue pits and you know, just just build them in and all right.
This is yours All right. This is yours. You bring me the materials. I'll make it for you, you know, and you know, and you know It wasn't like a business for him, but it was fun.
Yeah, he enjoyed working with his hands. Um And so from a manhood perspective, that's what I really saw but growing up Um, I realized that there's a level of superficial Uh, I'll make enough of a word here superficialness There was a there was a level of uh superficial ability. No, I really think that there was, you know, what I didn't see was transparency I'll put it to you like that. I did not see transparency any of it.
Okay, so if they were going some going through something I never heard it. I never saw it Um other than them, you know Having an argument with their wife or something like that That was at best what I would experience but they would never mention that, you know Hey, I'm sick and I'm going through this or hey, you know, money's running dry or you give it. I'm saying like there was no transparency whatsoever Yeah, um, so that that's my experience. I'm gonna leave it at that so you can give your experience and it will kind of jump back in Well, my mom's a little bit weird, uh, as you know, I was adopted by my grandfather Uh, well like step grandfather.
I guess you want to say it because there really wasn't a blood relation as my grandmother's second marriage Um, but you couldn't tell me that you know as far as I'm concerned my father, but my biological father was also very much in my life Um, uh, who I don't use the word womanizer. I feel like that's a little bit too harsh I might be going there a step too far. I guess I don't know but it was very much one of those where he just really good with women Man, my uncles were very uh, play-alistic stylistic all of that man Um, and so on one side I had a military older gentleman who was very much about what you just described You know what I mean? Uh, good with his hands always working faithful You know, he didn't he drank up until I was in high school.
Um, he didn't really smoke cigarettes or anything like that But you know, he would have a scotch every night, you know Like most military men did back then, um, and then on the flip side, you know, my biological father was drinking and he didn't really smoke But not that I saw but he was constantly drinking and he was you know, constantly with women and So for me, uh, the definition of manhood was a dichotomy if I'm being honest Um, I had decided my grandfather that was working went to church was a deacon Uh, you know what I mean? Had his same routine of the whole nine and then I had my uncles and my dad who were wild stallions And you know, they they taught me what you shouldn't should not do with a woman and how we should work and you had a deanna So it was very much like learning how to live two different lives. So when my uncle's were in town Boy, we about to play the game doc. Well, my when they were gone.
It was very much like You're gonna be you know, you're gonna be buttoned up. You're gonna be Playing by the rules and so once I kind of mastered that I was perfectly fit for church So that was the third part was just kind of learning from all of the people at church So I kind of had three different ideologies of manhood military freedom and then church So I just kind of learned how to exist in all three. That's my definition came from Okay. Yeah, and see for me, I don't you know, you brought in the aspect of church.
I don't think I really Um, it's not that we didn't go to church. We actually did go to church when I was really young Um, but there wasn't much male influence that I can remember from church as a youth Um Yeah, so you know, like I never saw like my dad was not big on church. Okay, and he actually still isn't big on church Um I don't know how much of that is because of what my mom, you know, and him went through. Um, oh, yes You know, he's he's always had issues with what he calls organized religion.
I talked to him all the time about that I'm like calling what you want to but it's not really what I what what I do is not organized religion Exactly. It's it's it's a it's a full-on relationship and we're talking, you know, just trying to live wholly But that being said, um, I didn't really have that influence as a youngster. Uh, the influence that I did have was Um You know, I had so I saw my dad Uh in relationships after my mom and him broke up and obviously I was just said when that happened So as I started to get older, I started to pay attention to things and started to see the way that my dad was moving Right? And so he was kind of I don't want to say in and out of relationships because to me he was in a relationship, but it would only last about two years And so there was kind of I don't want to say a rotation, but essentially it was like, you know, something would happen within two years and it would end Um, however, I saw him trying and he was trying to work towards being married with someone again every single time I never saw him out there playing the field, you know, I mean like there wasn't just random women waking up in my house or anything Like that where I was just like who is she?
You know, it was never anything like that. Um, and if that was happening, that's you know It was never brought around my brother and I got you um coming up. Yeah, so, so, you know, I never felt like oh my dad's out here being a player You know, like that was never an influence for me. However, I did have one uncle who at a very young age used to ask Um, my brother and myself and and this is no shame to him because honestly, um, this is one of my favorite uncles I love this dude.
He passed away a couple years ago, but um, I did his I did his surface as a matter of fact But one of the questions he used to ask and I can remember man I might have been five six seven years old the first time he asked me the question and this is my uncle who you know, he's a military man Okay, he actually was in at Vietnam and you know, he's the carpenter, right? This is this is uh, Marcus's dad Oh, okay. He used to ask me a question. I'll never forget the question because the first time he asked the question I had no idea what he was talking about question.
He used to ask me was hey, man. How many hammers you got? hammers Hammers, okay. Now.
Okay. Now. Okay. Now he's he's uh, you know, we're talking about a an actual Uh, he used to build sets.
He used to he used to work on the sets movies, right? Yeah, he did cha chanqueredemption Um, uh, he did who's the boss I could remember because he he wasn't a big fan of Tony Danza because he said he kept breaking the coffee table And he got the rebuild it every time he broke the coffee table Uh, it's an old man thing to complain about. Oh, I'm bringing the coffee table. Well, I mean he has to rebuild it every time he does it Um, but just just the thought about it and um, so he used to ask me like, you know, how many hammers you got and Um, because he was an actual carpenter.
I'm thinking he's talking about hammers. Well, no, he wasn't talking about hammers He was saying hammers. He was actually talking about how many girls you got So my uncle is telling me how many girls you got Now i'm only, you know, five six seven years old, maybe even older than that But i'm always trying to be prepared to have an answer from my uncle because I know when I see him He's gonna ask me how many hammers you got? I've never heard that phrase can I just say that i've never heard that phrase but I love it now I've never heard it before or after he's the only one that's ever said it to me.
Oh, that's a triple G stuff right there And I love it. I love it to this day. I absolutely love it Um, however, I was making up numbers because in my mind He's he's one of those depictions of a man to me. So I did not want to um, disappoint Right.
One of the things that I didn't want to do is disappoint him and say oh, I don't have any So I you know, even if I didn't have any, oh, I got about three or four of them. You know what I mean? And so I'm thinking that that's what's shaping me into a man Give what i'm saying. So i'm thinking, okay.
Well, a young man must have you got to have some hammers Please though Can't we can ask a question? No as you say that guess that's a question Did he ever this answer our question did you was that like a self-inflicted that inflicted but like was that a expectation you assumed That I needed to have hammers. Yeah Let's let me favor Yeah, probably Absolutely. I mean, but I'm just a young man being asked how many girls you got you know And you're getting a brand new that that huh Uh, no, no, no Did you just remember we also came up in a time where there were no cell phones and all that stuff So at the most at what the age of 14, I might have had a pager.
You know what I mean? We have a people who call it a house Well, yeah, no, but no girls Why do I know that I'm talking to somebody because no calling the house and being at the house is two different things Now I would be on the phone But I also had to share a phone time with my brother and my dad So he doesn't have a cell phone either. Well, actually he worked for JPO He probably did have a cell phone well, he definitely had one well before me. Okay.
Um, but you know, it just wasn't a You could have a long conversation and pretty much you were bested. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that was your girlfriend That was your girlfriend But in my mind when I'm thinking about manhood, I'm being shaped and I'm thinking okay Then there must be a need for me to have some kind of roster or choices or options. Uh-huh.
Yes, the opposite sex, right? And so that's that's what I kind of got from that. Uh, even if that wasn't the intent, that's what I got from it Right. Yeah granted at the same time.
We're also listening to music and everybody's talking about Um being a player and and all of that stuff. So, you know We're also talking about moving into the early 90s And now you got Snoop Dogg and the dog pound and you know the degrading of women and all that stuff All of this stuff is kind of working together and these are the years that I'm being shaped And but see okay, but you know what I'm noticing for both of us most of most of our understanding about manhood On the negative side has to do with emotions and sex Right so like from the consistency and the working with your hands and all of that I think we both have very similar experiences, but when it comes down to like the negative part we experienced It very much had to do with like how to deal with women and and how do we deal with our emotions and you know what I'm saying? I'm like if I'm wondering how much of that was just because that's what we were paying attention to at that time Yeah, you know what I mean isn't isn't that though also the I'll put it like this as an adolescent my thought was well This is kind of the making of you This is this is what you're grated by yeah Now that is a young mind thinking that right it's not till you get older you realize there's so much more to being a man than just How many hammers you got? Let's let's do this for the sake of the show Let's not call it hammers for Let's not call it hammers right now.
Let's let's give it another another name No, I mean, you know, I think that that was one of the things right because we're also talking about a time where You know Don't hate the player hate the game like all the different player, you know types of things came back out This is when we began to become Refixated on like old dolomite and you know super fly and you know because it was it was actually the influence from the artist Right so you had the rappers who were going back to look at dolomite and super fly and you know then you had snoop Girl coming out with um with music that was you know influential of being a pimp and you know all of that kind of stuff And it was like okay, all right, all right And so what you end up to think is that that's how your manhood is going to be graded Yeah, and I think the other part is it was reinforced when we went to school So You know most of the men from that generation We're all pretty much saying the same thing so even if even if you were trying to fight it internally like man I don't even know if I should be thinking that way when you got to school If you weren't thinking that way they would make sure that you were that you were you know chastised ridiculed Or whatever you know i'm saying so like even even pressure from your friends peer pressure from your friends So it's like you know, you know virginity and all that stuff Yeah, I was literally a part of a uh a click and and Same same shameless plug, but the the click was called full life play a click and that's you know, we It was about how many how many girls you had that was that was a part of the game, right? You know, okay, put it this way. Let's go back to the movie. Um, the wood.
Yes, right? You remember the wood where where they're getting ready to go to the dance And the whole thing was wherever comes out with the most phone numbers wins Right they gonna get a dollar. Yep Bro, we used to do that all the time. It didn't even take a dance or a party We'd go to the mall and it was that you know, I mean it was all right who's gonna get the most phone numbers And and it was a celebrated title to be honest.
Absolutely. Absolutely So be completely honest with you. I don't even call half those phone numbers. Oh you tripping I what was interesting is this is how you know this era was just like laden with it because I was a part of a click called play State University It was called psu.
We even had colors. It was we wear orange everything was orange. BC picks up terry myself cw shot Elliot of Buka you see all of us all of us all in orange they went to prom in all orange look at Terry's picture He had a orange top hat with like orange silk shirt. We looked like sugar-free and But again, like we prided ourselves on that because it was like you run it you run it through You know I'm saying like and here's the part that's really crazy about it It wasn't until we became fathers Someone on our side where we started questioning some of the stuff that we wanted to pass on to our kids and For me, you know, I I remember being with would right and I remember dating her in the whole night my mentality was different But it hadn't changed that much but when I held Caleb for the first time I you know, I'm saying it immediately made me think about all of the things I was gonna have to teach him And I remember I remember vividly saying this to him, you know, you know when you you know when they come out You gotta hold him chest naked and all that stuff I remember I remember saying to him I have no idea what I'm doing I remember telling my newborn son that because when I in that moment I was like I I don't really know I forget parenting.
I don't know what manhood looks like and you know because you know You have a little jag who's literally your twin Okay, I don't know I don't know what the heck I'm doing and I think that's it's so interesting that you could have so much confidence in your younger years Only to get older to realize all that stuff we were doing was literally smoke. It was for not it was Yes, I'm a professional and none of it and I would not want to replicate any of it And that's probably why you're seeing such a difference between our generation and the previous generation as a previous generation didn't I don't think they necessarily thought that way I think For every man who had a son I think they could not wait until their son got old enough that they could talk about women With him and and go outside and throw the pigs can and get it He had it and do all that stuff and I think because of that because of that like I cannot wait There was no restraint in their head. There was no like I probably shouldn't say that around him I probably shouldn't teach him that it was like I cannot wait to show him this and I think our generation was the first one to put Apoll's on and be like I don't know I don't know if I want to introduce my son To a life because let me let me be honest like There were diseases and all that stuff, you know as in the 60s and 70s and all that But AIDS was scaring the but Jesus out of people in the 90s Oh, absolutely. HIV was terrifying people If I remember correctly, I don't even think that we had The talk with my dad, but the talk we did have was If you're gonna do it, you better use a condom Don't and if you don't know where to get condoms, this is where you get them in my headboard They're always going to be there.
So that's how that's how afraid of AIDS We were in the late 80s early 90s was that I'm not even talking to you about anatomy and what to do and where this happens and how this all stuff happens But I'm just saying hey, the condoms are over there Listen and you know what's funny. It wasn't an encouragement. That wasn't an encouragement. It's just hey If it's gonna happen and you're not gonna stop you gotta wrap up You got don't and see so for you young bucks out there who are gonna be watching listening to this I know it sounds far-fetched because all y'all just be out there humping And y'all got plan Bs and y'all have all this other stuff There's something A's ain't going nowhere and it is on the rise and it's on the rise.
Yes. Yes. So it's interesting. You know what's funny I think we need to have a part two on this too because I got my boy, Corey I think we'll be great for this because he has a story about that But but what's interesting is like like I don't think you understand like we were watching people in our age group be buried In caskets Because we we did not even fully have a grasp on what you think covid was bad Coven was bad, but we understood like we understood by a certain point what we needed to do no matter how many people were like fighting against it A's and HIV was so like out of it was so wild that people were afraid to play basketball with magic johnson That's that is how that is how wild it was We were there were people afraid that you were going to die from somebody's sweat You know what?
What's crazy about that is even on top of that There is even a worse pandemic that was happening Epidemic or whatever you want to call it crack cocaine lack of fatherhoods. Yes and gangs Yes, so lack of fatherhood and so you had gangs so you had violence. So when you say we were seeing caskets It's not just aids We're talking about people getting shot for colors at the same time Yes, and when we talk about manhood There's a lot of people I knew as a boy that I never met as a man because they didn't make it to man Never got there Because of probably and I would say it's probably safe to attribute it to lack of manhood Um, either somewhere in their lives or the lives of the others who decided to take theirs It exactly my point that this is exactly my point though, right? This is exactly my point Because all of this is happening at the same time.
This this is all of this is happening And I brought up drugs so there's a dare program happening because drugs and the gangs were like they were inextricably tied You could not separate the two so so all of this is happening at the same time and jay just said it during the same time You have diseases that we don't understand gangs You have uh, you have drugs that are going out there in the middle of all of this the fathers are absent Right the fathers are nowhere to be seen so men had to essentially define it So if you want to know how we ended up where we are now And then I'm gonna get you far into it, but there is a Defining defining manhood used to be pretty concrete on the most part Okay, now it has been it's really up to how you feel So what were the aspects then let's let's talk about that for a second What's the aspects what makes a man or what made a man in the 90s? Perfect example. Let me give you a perfect example one thing you can say I don't care if the man was cheating on drugs Whatever I already told y'all my dad was a drug addict anti-alcoholic and he was still in my life, right? Raising your kids was a thing Right it was a thing It was far more frowned upon to be a deadbeat dad, right now.
Let's fast forward to 2025 Anthony Edwards Just got a girl pregnant and said how much is child support going B for 18 years And paid it up and just said here you go now now We also praised him for it. That's what you're ready to say There are people who are like man, at least he's stepping up now You see how far we've gone you should I'm saying stepping up in today's vernacular as a man means I'm gonna pay the money for it my dad did not have the money to take care of me But he went to a payphone every weekend on a Saturday to call our house to say to talk to me for at least 20 minutes That to me is is far more stepping up than just paying money and saying amen Please don't ever come after me from again Right, and again, I don't want to get into the whether it's right or wrong But as much as that's what I mean by like What fatherhood or what manhood meant there were some things that were just concrete and if you didn't do it you were frowned upon Right. Yeah, you were frowned upon. Yeah, so like it's covering up a mistake with money as if though money does the healing It actually doesn't even take into account the life.
Yes in that situation. That's the issue. Yes. It's like Here, I'm gonna sell my child to you.
Yeah, basically that's essentially what it is. He sold his child He didn't buy a child. He sold a child basically said here you can have my jeans to make a child And here's the money for it and now I don't want anything to do with you And what's interesting is nowhere in that equation did you think about what does this kid gonna feel like knowing that his dad was a superstar? And the headline over my life is that my dad paid the money not to see me no more That's a different kind of dollar goal.
Yeah, I mean, well, let's think about this though We are also talking about a generation Who is interested In only the physicality that is offered by the opposite sex. There we go. There we go So so our our algorithms in Instagram are all based on Who's next on my list? Yes And because that's the case what ends up happening is is that you end up leaving this trail of destruction And The people who suffer are the children not the two consensing adults who jumped in the bed who who probably got what they wanted from each other Yeah, what is the children?
Exactly and now this kid has to define manhood With that origin story Yeah, you know absolutely stab bro. I did not learn what happened with my mom and my dad and all that stuff until I was well into my 20s I didn't know what happened because there was no internet. There was no trail. There was no digital anything It was my family told me and they eventually did it.
I didn't know what was happening with that So like like nowadays like I'm saying all that to say this like like for us We were able to kind of navigate even unknown spaces Um, you know regardless what kind of upbringing you had there was enough examples in society that you could point to something Does that make sense like I hate I don't please don't please don't please don't put anything in the comments about this I just want to separate it for a minute. But like when you had shows like the Cosby show Right for get bill just I'm saying just think about it from an 80s and 90s babies perspective Even if I didn't have a dad every every week There was a man who came on with a beautiful family a black man who was successful and taking care of his kids That's what the show was based on regardless of what you feel about bill himself But the idea was even if I didn't have a dad in my life, I had something to aspire and go Oh, yeah, man like like that's dope. You know what I'm saying? Like I would love that If you didn't have that you had an uncle Phil you had a car wins low you had like just that random people that you could be like Amen.
I love to have a dad like that You had something that you would be able to model in the absence of having your own manhood in front of you You had something that you can model in front of you. You don't have that now I think it's I think it's interesting that you bring up Um those two dads right Cosby uncle Phil Yep, right because interesting that you bring up those two because many people will counter that and say well They had the means to everybody's not as educated everybody doesn't have as much money You know from all accounts it seemed like the Cosby's were rich They were And it seemed like you know uncle Phil was rich right which he was he lived in Bel Air He they had a mansion, you know, but then you also had, you know other fathers who weren't rich, but they were present and they gave good hardy Lessons, right? So you talk about um What did you mention? Erkel what's the show?
Always low family matters. Yeah family matters, right? So yeah family matters But then even on the on the other brink like the other end of the whole thing you had uh john amis Right. Yeah, um Um, I don't know what's going on right now.
I can't remember the name of any shows I was there what's happening. I almost said what's happening But y'all know what you're talking about right? So he was you know giving jj and michael the business in good times consistently Right. I'm shame right now And and while he was mad broke and you saw all the money issues that they had on that show He never ran away.
He was present and he was a father He was still that example and it showed you that you don't have to be rich To be good that except for the conversation. Yeah, yeah where he died due to a contract dispute, but yes Correct. It wasn't about the money. Oh No, but you're absolutely right.
I mean there were examples of that there were examples of that and there was a prototype, right? So just what you said is perfectly on spot on because Even if he was poor, there were still there were still similar traits He was there for us. You know what I'm saying? Like there were certain things that you looked at and you were like Hardworking dad there Sherman Hemsley, right?
Right? Right? You know red fox like We were all over the spectrum as far and we're talking about black dads right now because you know we're black but at the end of the day That's that that was what it looked like and there were even moments like um Uh, what's uh, which talking about will is um gary Coleman show? Um different strokes.
Yeah, right like even then you were like, you know, these are two black kids being raised in a white household Adopted adopted you know what I'm saying, but even in that you're watching that you're going There is a version of life for me that doesn't have to be what I'm doing where I'm at right now And so I think I think there were so many examples of manhood and fatherhood and now if you were to look on tv or or I'll put it this way We were raised by tv Cable raised us we were raised by tv We are that we got introduced to the internet by the time we had already formed our decision about manhood By the time a well and all this stuff come out. We in aim, you know instant messenger And we already we've already made up our mind. We're gonna go talk to girls and do all that stuff already been said This generation though was raised by the internet that we played with but this is now their income. This is their identity This is their example you know what i'm saying youtube my son knows more about society through youtube than he does Through anything else so his idea of manhood if i'm absent The only thing left raising my son is youtube now i want you to think about that What is the template of manhood based upon you on youtube?
We can look at the old shows on cable and we can find common threads what common thread of manhood do you find on the internet? I don't think I don't think there is much. I think it's it's Subjective everything is everything is subjective. Yes, but from my perspective.
It's it's almost all fake. Yeah as well as It I don't I don't see much where you can gain from it. You know how so like for instance If you look at uncle feel yes, he taught me something if you look at bill Cosby Um, you know cleave cliff huckstable. He taught me something.
Yeah, you look at al bunty. He taught me something real talk No, ma'am These these people can teach you something. I don't know that today's the internet and and the media that we have today is actually there to teach you There are no lessons being taught. It's all consumable hours of nothingness.
That's a great way to put it Which is why when you walk away from it you feel like, hey, I just wasted six hours. What was I what did I learn today? Nothing. I feel empty.
I'm a big bottle of nothingness and so so so so with that being said, this is kind of why I truly believe Right now is the prime time for the church to step in that This is my belief when you start noticing an absence of something that is so strong that you cannot find a located center There is no epicenter to the epidemic. I can't pinpoint a moment and be like, oh, this is where everything exploded Let me go back to the origin story and try to reverse it We don't know where it's at right now. Everything is everywhere and this is the way I like to look at it Anywhere that there is a a gang of chaos is perfectly prime for Holy Spirit So when you look at Genesis chapter 1 and the earth was formless and void there was dark upon the waters It says the Holy Spirit hovered over the earth brooded over the earth waited incubated the earth It is the same way that we're supposed to do now where there's an absence of fatherhood absence of manhood Where there's an absence of clarity about manhood that is exactly when the church is supposed to hover brood begin to disciple and show people what it's like I shot out to Jason Wilson the dude on on Instagram on if anybody's ever seen him check him out on Instagram Yeah, you probably don't black dude with large gray gray beard, you know bald head But he's constantly teaching him to the young kids. Um, yeah, they were doing what is it?
Some form of martial arts and that was even moving to him just going and showing up with grown men I saw him do a show with Van Wafen and read that man for Phil and just like let him like gave this man a moment to cry like Like like he's doing exactly what's necessary where there's a lack of clarity He's walking in a way that this is not even about In our society and this is the elephant in the room that we can't necessarily dive into but when you talk about gender roles when you talk about gender in general When you talk about manhood like all that stuff like it has become offensive to say things that Really should be normalized, right? We can't say it out loud It should be it should be normalized and I'm saying this based upon the word god Now if I say that I've offended somebody, but this is this is where Jason Um, Jason Wilson's coming in and I think is making a beautiful case He's not even coming in yelling and and and and knocking people over the head with scripture He's literally taping moments of showing you the byproduct of what happens when a man who is a man shows up to help young boys Or shows up to help grown men who are still as young boys. You can't deny the fruit of it Now we can argue theology methodology and all of that but one thing you can't do is argue fruit So when you see a young kid who's who's in pain, but he's pressing through he's learning how to say yes, sir He's learning what a principle means. He's learning how to when you see that then you go.
Oh, okay That that to me is manhood does that make sense like that goes? Okay? I see it I can't explain it I couldn't sit down and define it with a pen But if I wanted to point to something that's a moment that I would want my son to experience Absolutely Absolutely. Yes.
No, I'm in total agreement because um and that was You know, I think it was a perfect time for you to bring that up because I think you know for me my My manhood was formed. So I thought Right, but my manhood that was formed was based on what I saw and what I had experienced coming up Yeah Fast forward into my early adult years and to the time that I became active in church My perspective then changed. I began to see what a man of God looks like versus just a man Same war. So as I began to see what a man of God looks like I started to realize that I was incomplete I was just a man, but I wasn't a man of God I wanted to be a man of God so that I could make men of God Which is why my my my lessons and my teachings to my sons have never been focused on Just the stuff that I saw But also the stuff that I wanted to be Oh, that's good.
And so You know, yes, I used to get frustrated when I'm out there doing my breaks and and you know My sons are in the house hanging out. Yeah, I get frustrated with stuff like that because it's like hey, you know Um, you should be out here with me so you can learn how to do this stuff. Get your body You know, you're gonna have these issues, right? Um, if you if you want to pay for it all the time, that's fine But it still helps to know how to do it.
Yes, because there's gonna come a time where you're not gonna have a choice But to do it yourself and when when that time comes You're gonna be in a in a tough situation when you can't change your tire when you can't do your own breaks or you know Things like that and here's a keyjay and you're not always gonna be there to show them It goes back to black panther Yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely black panther man that that line I told you I was gonna look it up and I didn't I wish I would call it right now I would like to recall it right now But the line is so pertinent man and as a matter of fact if you are listening to this I encourage you to Watch the first black panther movie. Um, and there is a line between um princess princess uh prince to chala and and and king to chaka And this conversation is so deep man and he just really You know kind of pours out his heart to his dad and his dad's response is like I've been preparing you for this That is my job as a father was to prepare you for how to live without me That's heavy. He told him he wasn't ready and that was so heavy because and it what it did was it made me think about How much urgency do I have behind teaching my son to be a man? Yeah Because Because we don't know when Right, we know we're all going to we don't know when If we're laxadaisical about teaching manhood, yes to our sons We could miss the mark because you could be wiped out you could be gone before you had a chance to open the book Don't And then you've left it up to somebody else To teach their influence to teach your son bro, so and that kind of goes to some I did want to talk about was Part of when you mentioned this earlier part of what our our fathers did And i'm speaking in regards to jay and I Part of what they did was they made sure that we were around Their their friends family uncles brothers Um, I don't think it's possible to fully form a kid a boy into a man without community Does that make sense?
Um, I just don't I don't think I don't think it's possible to To fully be able to you can teach him principles and things like that but for him to get a full world view I think it's I think it is imperative that you have good community because part of that is understanding manhood is understanding that you are not a man without community Isolation it's not good for man to be on you could put whatever you want to put there is no lone wolf that prospers There's a lone wolves that survive, but not not ones that prosper Um, and so even like you set yourself up. Yes to live without but there should be a safeguard system in place So for instance if something happens to me the next man up is jay from my son or my daughter I'm watching my brother terry do that right now, man. Um, my my ex his wife sister Passed away from cancer several years ago. Um, and she had kids beautiful kids She had three in total beautiful children, man or back in my before and terry took all those kids All of them and has raised them one of my things getting ready to graduate high school in a minute You understand I'm saying like like I'm saying that they say like Like they have a father He's great.
Um and they and all of that but they they found safety in community And I think god that terry would grew up in a household where man everything you just said Man that was pops that was poster dog. That was him like the first time I ever seen somebody barbecue would go Pops did it. Wow. You know what I'm saying?
He's wanted to talk me how to put flooring in a house the first time I ever saw somebody do plumbing inside He did his own plumbing inside the house. He taught me how to drive stick shift you understand like like I know that those kids Are being raised by a great dude and terry because I watched what his father did does that make sense? So even the even in the void of their mom and their dad not being there terry is there That's the same way it's gotta be for us and it was crazy as terry was active before jambi died You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like jay and roger and eli and nick all these people are active in my kids lives now Like if something happens to ray and I i'm not i'm not really tripping on if my kids are gonna be okay I am very aware that the community's got them And I know that they're surrounded by men who are gonna teach my son how to be a man and women who are gonna teach my daughter how to be a woman Does that make sense?
So like yeah, you know, you're you're bringing up something that we haven't even touched on But you're bringing up something that is important because oftentimes When we do and when we name someone as a godparent, right? Oftentimes we do that with the expectation that it's never gonna be necessary. This is just my best friend This is just my homeboy. This is just my cousin or my brother or you know, what have you?
But you don't know what's coming down the line And you don't know whether you're gonna really need or your kids are gonna really need to rely upon This person as a godparent real talk and so when you're choosing godparents for your children It is imperative to number one choose someone who you know is there for the long haul. Yeah, man Yeah, man That'll be you know what I mean? I mean like an argument ain't gonna end your relationship. Yeah.
Yeah, and you only twice after that Exactly, exactly. And so and then you also want to find someone who you know, if they're already a parent You see their parenting style with their own children. There it is. I have I can look at your life and see fruit Exactly.
Yeah, that's important now It is was in this it's so when I mentioned about having two dads that's how it ended up happening My biological father could not take care of me. Herro Lee Johnson could does that make sense? Yeah Am I dad trusted trusted Herro Lee because he saw the fruit and listen my dad only had he had a son But one thing and he was full grown like by the time I was born Herro Lee was in his 50s But one thing he did see that my dad could see was we looked at Herro Lee's life He could see the fruit of it. I am who I am today Praise god because of my because of my biological father But it is vastly 99% of who I am is because of Herro Lee Johnson I play piano because of him.
I understood administration because of him I say yes ma'am no ma'am because of him every job I've received is because of him any kind of any kind of friendship that I've developed has Been because my father taught me how to develop friendships and and like like to know in the back of my mind Anytime that I start questioning my adoption I can look at the fruit of my life and attribute it to there was a man that stood in the place of another man Right. Do you know what's crazy about that is because It takes you to say that you were adopted for me to even think about it that way Mm. Yeah, I don't I don't think about it that way Man because from my perspective There doesn't seem to be the hurt behind it. Most people, you know who are adopted They've been through some traumatic experience They were taken away from their parents and they were you know awarded the state and and hey if all that happened, okay But you don't wear it is my point right?
And so you know when I was talking earlier, I'm thinking about you know the guy parent thing. It's like I'm a guy parent of like 35 Stop taking up a game We can't because you know we just we just got too many but you know, it's I'm serious, man. It's so important It is so important and it's so important and it's about fruit though. Like you said, it's about fruit It is and you know, we've been I've been saying it but but Jay is the godfather of my children And it will it will be that way until until the lord sees fit to bring me home And and the reason why I can look at Jay's life and be like yo Like there is no other person that I would rather to have my kids learn how to do life with and a part of that's because I've learned It there's two parts to it the two parts for Jay is And this and if anybody's trying to identify manhood I think there's two things that you need to look for whether it be a guy parent or whether it just be for someone to you to emulate when you grow up A man that is vulnerable I think is one of the most crucial things like we love our fathers and as Jay has already said and I've stated before my rant Our fathers really weren't vulnerable like that.
They didn't let you see them fail Like even if they failed it wasn't like a discussion You know what I mean? It wasn't like a thing but what what we do know is that the vulnerability of a man does so much for Just the assurance of people around them just being able to know that they're human is a in and of itself a sign of manhood recognizing limits and recognizing shortfalls and shortcomings because one thing I do want to see is I can see all the stuff you do right. Can I see you striving in the areas that you get wrong? Can I see you pushing in those areas?
You know what I'm saying? Like that's huge and the second thing is a man follows God and when I say follows God I don't I don't mean go to church going to church is extremely important and that is a part of it But that is not the totality of a man of God I can tell you when the switch flipped for my father Apparently was going to church with the rest of us but I know when the man changed I can tell you that exact day the man changed it was a it was a month It was my sophomore year in high school and it was in june I just got out It was like the sunday after I had just got out of school for the summer and they called that man to pray And he got up and he went to go pray and the deacon devotion and something happened to him at that altar I don't know but from that day forward he didn't drink no more scotch He never questioned my mom about why we had to go to church He became so devoted to the church from that day on they named the building after him That's how dedicated he became I saw when he became a believer So it wasn't him going to church. It was him becoming a true man of God those two things a vulnerable man who follows God Bro, I mean we can learn how to change breaks That's important But if a man can't learn to be vulnerable or if a man can't learn to be submitted to that of God All those skills are gonna be great, but you go to train school and learn all that let's be honest You can go on youtube and learn how to change breaks You can't go on youtube and learn how to be vulnerable You know I We in today's world we talk so much about leadership. Yes, right?
Um, unfortunately the conversation starts with leadership Mm-hmm. Yeah leadership should be the the Destination so to speak yes the beginning of the conversation the beginning of the conversation the conversation starts with followership It doesn't start with leadership. You cannot lead if you cannot follow that's If you have never followed Then you where are you leading? Where are you going?
What is happening? You are flying by the seat of your pants making it up as you know And that's what changed for me was I learned how to follow It was me sitting back and watching and seeing a man of God in action and saying Oh, I see where I need to be and being humble enough I pronounced the H there humble enough to actually sit there and say I don't have it all I need to get next to someone who does Yep, and I need to follow that person I need that person's guidance and that person's assistance and that person's help and you know what's so crazy about that is that People in my own family don't even realize how much they've learned from Bishop William Lulu Delard. Wow Having never stepped on the campus a second Baptist Church That's heavy bro That is heavy, but if you get it from me, you got it from him. You got it from him.
You know what I'm saying? Yep. Yep. And and so that's that's like, you know Yeah I'm so glad you said that because it's it's the same here.
It's it's the exact same here I can't I can't even really put into words have the stuff that I've learned Um since being a part of that family I You're either going to stick around and learn or you're gonna run away because you don't want to learn yeah Yeah, that's it. You're gonna make a decision Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I don't I don't understand people who can come around Someone like him and not glean anything and not take anything You know what I mean like to me that doesn't make sense I would say it's a choice and it's also just a hardened heart Yeah, you got to have a hardened heart to be around somebody like Bishop and just be like yeah I ain't got an offer like there's no way in the world. There's no way in the world. You know what I mean?
Yeah, bro, I mean I'm not trying to make him out to be Jesus or anything, but at the same time He he has always been for me. He's always been an open book But at the same time the blueprint Wow You know what I mean and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's perfect right? I've seen him make mistakes, but I've also seen him so willing to say you saw what happened here That was a mistake.
I should not have done that you know what I mean And don't do that and point out that mistake to me so that I don't make the same one right right right right right right You know and I'm not just talking about things of of the church. I'm talking about just manhood. Yeah all together all together bro And so this is why I know we need a part two. It's not no one need a part two because we haven't even really touched the surface we have not touched bro, but I think I think it was a great start And I and you know it's honest to be honest with you I think there's gonna be some good conversation in the comments about this Um and I jay is already kind of I'm sure he's already done it, but shout out to the people man who've been commenting You know, we see your names pop through you guys are faithful listeners your comments matter You guys you guys discussions matter.
It actually, you know, believe it or not. It helps us and even how we guide podcast topics Is yeah, I can't watch it. You know me. Uh, so please in this this clearly gonna be a part two probably a part three Jay said at the beginning and I think he's probably right.
This is probably going to happen to be a series I just I can't it's so it's such a deep subject matter But we got to know what you guys are thinking in the comments You know, we clearly said some things that probably sounded a little bit controversial We didn't said everything from Anthony Edwards to Bill Cosby in here and Part two will probably get to our Kelly But at this point you have enough that you can comment on and we would love to hear your comments So please make sure that after you subscribe You leave a comment and if you can do us a favor leave us a review for all you Apple podcast listeners Leave us a few yeah, yeah for sure and help us to get this podcast No, we purposely have been doing this in this year because we feel like the discussion is necessary. So Jay You have anything? Yeah, no, man. I mean, I would just I mean at this point Um, I would just say, you know, hopefully what was said something will peak your interest to continue to tune in Uh, and also maybe share it to someone who you believe needs to hear the conversation, you know, I mean Um, I don't think anything that we've said has been like offensive or downing or anything like that I mean even even me, you know, sometimes I'm a little open I'm open book and sometimes I share maybe too much or something seems targeted or whatever But that's never my intention, right?
I like to share lessons that have that have taught me great things, right? And so, you know, even in just talking about my own family dynamics and stuff like that That's never that's never with the intent to hurt anybody. That's always with the intent of Hey, you know, I know that if I've been through this or if this is my family dynamics, I'm sure someone's had the same family dynamic You know what I mean? If you come from a big, like I come from a huge family, right?
I've got tons of cousins, you know, um, and so You know, we kind of we kind of raised each other in a sense I mean, you know, when the when the the adults are hanging out and having a good time Then the kids are hanging out and having a true time, you know what I mean? So, um, you know, I have uncles who have filters and I have uncles who have no filter Most of them have no filter, you know, I mean, uh, so you know, those are those are some of the things that, you know Are very interesting because then you find out like, okay, so Do do you go the filter route or do you go the no filter? Like have my kids heard me say the things that I've heard from my my dad and uncle and stuff like that Uh, no, not really maybe maybe in bouts of anger Uh, have I really ever expressed anything like that? But uh, you know, I try to shelter them from that Um, only not because they shouldn't hear it, but um, just because I don't want them to see that Yeah, you know what I mean?
Like that representation. Um, now granted my my kids have both seen me ready to throw hands Uh, unfortunately, unfortunately they have seen me ready to like go all in Um, and it's it's very surprising very surprising, but uh, my daughter was she was she was stoking the fire She was ready to throw the first punch and I'm like, hey, hey back up I get the car girl. I don't want you It's a man's fight Yeah, so uh, yeah, yeah Um, but anyway, no, I mean, I hope you guys got a lot from this. Um, like I said, this is gonna definitely turn into a part two Maybe even a part three, um, because there's so much that we just have any touchdown But we appreciate your time.
I mean, we've held you for over an hour probably Uh, so we appreciate your time That knows the do y'all ain't doing nothing Just playing Everything while you're doing it. Just leave us a review. Let us know if you like it, okay Um, and that's it. I mean we'll be back with another one.
They're probably part two of this who knows but until that time This is your point of honor Jay Until then we'll holla peace middle east