What Makes Something Alive? Assembly Theory and the Origins of Life (Sara Walker, Theoretical Physicist)

Sara Walker is a theoretical physicist who studies the origins of life and the author of Life as No One Knows It. As AI prompts us to rethink what consciousness, intelligence, and life really mean, Sara’s work offers a provocative framework for understanding these questions. In this conversation, Sara shares how she developed assembly theory—a revolutionary approach suggesting that complex objects like DNA molecules (and even microphones) are evidence of life’s processes.We explore:• Why Sara believes we need entirely new laws of physics to understand life• How assembly theory quantifies the transition from non-life to life with a measurable threshold• Why complex objects like DNA and microphones are evidence of evolutionary processes• How our perception of objects as “physical” or “abstract” depends on their temporal scale• Why traditional definitions of life fail as scientific frameworks• How assembly theory could revolutionize our search for extraterrestrial life• The surprising connection between urban atmospheres and biosignatures• Why Sara sees fundamental differences between computation and physical construction• How assembly theory views AI systems and large language models• The creative parallels between theoretical physics and conceptual art—Thank you to the partners who make this possibleTezi: The AI agent for recruiting high-quality candidates quicklyBrex: The banking solution for startups—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(03:32) Sara’s background and approach to studying the origins of life(08:21) Sara’s journey to theoretical physics(11:40) How the “origin of life” field has evolved since she began her research(17:35) Introduction to assembly theory and its core principles(23:11) How assembly theory differs from traditional definitions of life(25:53) The historical parallels between assembly theory and Newtonian physics(31:45) Life vs. alive(34:33) How dabbling across disciplines led to Sara’s focus and partnership with Lee Cronin(40:43) The connection between theoretical physics and art(42:32) The probabilistic nature of assembly theory’s threshold(45:05) The time–size continuum(48:06) New threads that have emerged after Life as No One Knows It(50:27) Why assembly theory may be our best tool for finding life beyond Earth(54:04) The second feature of assembly theory: the copy number(55:39) The challenges of detecting life on exoplanets versus in our solar system(01:00:50) How recent AI developments have impacted Sara’s thinking about life(1:05:48) Whether large language models qualify as “life”(1:13:05) Final meditations—Follow Sara WalkerX: https://x.com/sara_imariLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saraimariwalker—Resources and episode mentions—Books—Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence: https://www.amazon.com/Life-No-One-Knows-Emergence/dp/0593191897The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World: https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Infinity-Explanations-Transform-World/dp/0143121359—People—Lee Cronin on X: https://x.com/leecroninJudea Pearl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_PearlPaul Davies on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-davies-33634114/Michael Lachmann on X: https://x.com/mikha_ehlBenjamin Bratton’s website: https://bratton.info/—Other resources—Are We Alone In The Universe? Sara Seager on Exoplanets, Venus, and the Hunt for Alien Life (Astrophysicist and Planetary Scientist at MIT): https://www.generalist.com/p/are-we-alone-in-the-universe-sara-seagerATP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphateEnceladus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnceladusDefinitions of Life by Carl Sagan: http://www.aim.univ-paris7.fr/enseig/exobiologie_PDF/Biblio/Sagan%20Definitions%20of%20life.pdfLife ≠ alive: https://aeon.co/essays/what-can-schrodingers-cat-say-about-3d-printers-on-marsAIR 2025: https://aspenartmuseum.org/art-week/air-2025/Little black dress: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/83616Dragonfly: https://science.nasa.gov/mission/dragonfly/Universal Turing machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machineVon Neumann universal constructor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_universal_constructor—Production and marketing by penname.co. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.generalist.com/subscribe