What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power

How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it. They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan's book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions. You'll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you. Timestamps: 1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever 3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray 8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating 14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials 20:10 – Susan on being a white person who "meant well" but needed to unlearn 26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice 33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative 36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox 43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like 52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short 59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are) Guest Information: Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change. Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face. Richard Gray serves as director of AISR's Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country. He also directs AISR's Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers' unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes.     Click here to DONATE and support our podcast All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas. Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race. Contact [email protected] to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences. Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)    Connect with me: Instagram Facebook YouTube Twitter LinkedIn Tiktok Website    Previous Episodes Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring Loved this episode?  Leave us a review and rating