Why do I have 2 passwords? How to talk about encryption in Matrix (matrix-conf-2025) episode artwork

EPISODE · Oct 17, 2025 · 50 MIN

Why do I have 2 passwords? How to talk about encryption in Matrix (matrix-conf-2025)

from Chaos Computer Club - recent audio-only feed · host Andy Balaam

Most modern software applications give total trust to the service provider. End-to-end encrypted (E2EE) services are different: the service provider is a gateway, and the real trust is with other people. This is unfamiliar, and can make using E2EE confusing. When you add in federation (meaning lots of different service providers) and a diverse set of client apps, trying to make Matrix's encryption understandable is tricky. It would help to have a shared set of words and definitions. In this talk I describe MSC4161, which attempts to establish a shared vocabulary, and then my own thoughts about some metaphors we can use to make these ideas easier to grasp. End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is unfamiliar to people used to using modern applications: instead of handing over total trust to the server you connect to, E2EE makes the server a simple connector, and we only have to trust the people we are actually talking to. It is quite common for people using Matrix to ask "Why do I have 2 passwords?", referring to the username and password for logging in, and the recovery key. I recently made a leap of understanding about this question: the reason is that there are two audiences: the password is for your homeserver, and the recovery key is for allowing you to talk to other people. I began working on MSC4161 ("Crypto terminology for non-technical users") because I believed we needed to standardise our vocabulary, but it quickly became clear that we need to do more than that: if we want to make Matrix easy to use, we need to agree on: - what the main ideas are, - what words we use to describe them, and - what metaphors we use to explain. In its current form, the MSC focusses on the first two. In this talk, I will summarise the ideas and words that are reasonably settled in the MSC and will hopefully make their way into the spec, and I will also introduce some ideas I have about the third item: how to explain Matrix's E2EE using some metaphors that are intended to find the right level of explanation, and be more accurate than the metaphors we have used up to now. We will go through the proposed common words: - Devices/sessions and Identity - Verified users - Message keys, message history and key storage - Recovery and recovery keys Then we will look at some proposed metaphors: - "connect" for logging in, - "id card" for identity, and - "safe deposit box" for recovery I will try to argue that these metaphors are at the right level of explanation, and they match more closely to what is really happening than the ideas we have used up to now. Licensed to the public under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ about this event: https://cfp.2025.matrix.org/matrix-conf-2025/talk/7LNZZ3/

Most modern software applications give total trust to the service provider. End-to-end encrypted (E2EE) services are different: the service provider is a gateway, and the real trust is with other people. This is unfamiliar, and can make using E2EE confusing. When you add in federation (meaning lots of different service providers) and a diverse set of client apps, trying to make Matrix's encryption understandable is tricky. It would help to have a shared set of words and definitions. In this talk I describe MSC4161, which attempts to establish a shared vocabulary, and then my own thoughts about some metaphors we can use to make these ideas easier to grasp. End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is unfamiliar to people used to using modern applications: instead of handing over total trust to the server you connect to, E2EE makes the server a simple connector, and we only have to trust the people we are actually talking to. It is quite common for people using Matrix to ask "Why do I have 2 passwords?", referring to the username and password for logging in, and the recovery key. I recently made a leap of understanding about this question: the reason is that there are two audiences: the password is for your homeserver, and the recovery key is for allowing you to talk to other people. I began working on MSC4161 ("Crypto terminology for non-technical users") because I believed we needed to standardise our vocabulary, but it quickly became clear that we need to do more than that: if we want to make Matrix easy to use, we need to agree on: - what the main ideas are, - what words we use to describe them, and - what metaphors we use to explain. In its current form, the MSC focusses on the first two. In this talk, I will summarise the ideas and words that are reasonably settled in the MSC and will hopefully make their way into the spec, and I will also introduce some ideas I have about the third item: how to explain Matrix's E2EE using some metaphors that are intended to find the right level of explanation, and be more accurate than the metaphors we have used up to now. We will go through the proposed common words: - Devices/sessions and Identity - Verified users - Message keys, message history and key storage - Recovery and recovery keys Then we will look at some proposed metaphors: - "connect" for logging in, - "id card" for identity, and - "safe deposit box" for recovery I will try to argue that these metaphors are at the right level of explanation, and they match more closely to what is really happening than the ideas we have used up to now. Licensed to the public under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ about this event: https://cfp.2025.matrix.org/matrix-conf-2025/talk/7LNZZ3/

NOW PLAYING

Why do I have 2 passwords? How to talk about encryption in Matrix (matrix-conf-2025)

0:00 50:15

No transcript for this episode yet

We transcribe on demand. Request one and we'll notify you when it's ready — usually under 10 minutes.

Breaking News Show | eTurboNews Juergen Thomas Steinmetz News is relevant to the global travel and tourism industry, human rights and global issues.Breaking news when it happens and only from the source. That Hoarder: Overcome Compulsive Hoarding That Hoarder Hoarding disorder is stigmatised and people who hoard feel vast amounts of shame. This podcast began life as an audio diary, an anonymous outlet for somebody with this weird condition. That Hoarder speaks about her experiences living with compulsive hoarding, she interviews therapists, academics, researchers, children of hoarders, professional organisers and influencers, and she shares insight and tips for others with the problem. Listened to by people who hoard as well as those who love them and those who work with them, Overcome Compulsive Hoarding with That Hoarder aims to shatter the stigma, share the truth and speak openly and honestly to improve lives. HOMELAND HOMELAND The Church is a body not a building. It's the bride of Jesus Christ! Jesus is coming back for a mature bride. That means it's time for the church of Jesus Christ to move from milk to meat. This is the hour of maturity!HOMELAND is an announcement that the church is being set free. Only the church has the ability to transform the world. The kingdom's of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior!All of creation has been waiting for this moment! Sons and daughters of God are rising up and taking their seat! LIGHTS, CAMERA, SMILE! Creatives Club Media Lights, Camera, Smile, is a podcast for anyone with a dream to share something with the world, out of the overflow of themselves - be it their mind, their heart, their personalities, and much more. Each of us are alive in this moment in time, with an innate ability to have ideas and create various things to benefit both ourselves and the people around us for a reason, and here, you will find the encouragement, the inspiration, and the motivation to do just that. Hosted by Cicily, founder of Creatives Club, she dives into various topics surrounding creativity and business. Exploring entrepreneurship for creatives in a corporate reality, sharing tips and tricks in a media centered company, answering questions regarding what a creative actually is are just a few of the things discussed on this podcast. Be encouraged to create for yourself as Cicily gets vulnerable by pivoting the camera to herself for the first time.To submit questions for Cicily to answer, or have her address certain t

Frequently Asked Questions

How long is this episode of Chaos Computer Club - recent audio-only feed?

This episode is 50 minutes long.

When was this Chaos Computer Club - recent audio-only feed episode published?

This episode was published on October 17, 2025.

What is this episode about?

Most modern software applications give total trust to the service provider. End-to-end encrypted (E2EE) services are different: the service provider is a gateway, and the real trust is with other people. This is unfamiliar, and can make using E2EE...

Can I download this Chaos Computer Club - recent audio-only feed episode?

Yes, you can download this episode by clicking the download button on the episode player, or subscribe to the podcast in your preferred podcast app for automatic downloads.
URL copied to clipboard!