Why Should We Care How Indo-Pacific Allies Manage a Volatile and Distracted America? | with Marise Payne

Washington is engaging plenty with its Indo-Pacific allies these days … just not always on the things they want, and too often on things they don't. So how do savvy allies steer that relationship when the world's most powerful partner feels less predictable than ever?To find out, Ray Powell and Jim Carouso sit down with Marise Payne, Australia's former Defence Minister and Foreign Minister. Marise helped launch AUKUS and grow the Quad, and navigated the first Trump administration from both chairs. Now a distinguished visiting fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution, Payne brings rare insider perspective on how middle powers keep America engaged and what they must build for themselves when it drifts.In a wide-ranging conversation, Payne unpacks:Why "fewer Shangri-Las, more submarines" sets up a false choice, and why showing up still mattersThe AUKUS reality check: what the shift from the "optimal pathway" means, and the social license challenge facing CanberraWhether Pillar One is now on a "suboptimal pathway," and the case for driving Pillar Two harderHow the Quad found its feet again after COVID, and why the New Delhi foreign ministers' meeting mattersReassuring a skeptical ASEAN on nuclear submarines, and the relationship-first diplomacy that made it workChina's "do as I say, not as I do" stance on Japan's remilitarizationThe contrast between leading Defence and Foreign Affairs: "straight lines" versus "grasping at wisps of smoke"It's a practitioner's masterclass in alliance management for an era of strategic uncertainty. Essential listening for anyone tracking US-China competition, AUKUS, national defense, diplomacy and the future of the Indo-Pacific.Follow Marise Payne on Facebook Follow us on X, @IndoPacPodcast, LinkedIn, or FacebookFollow Ray Powell on X, @GordianKnotRay, or LinkedIn, or check out his maritime transparency work at SeaLightFollow Jim Carouso on LinkedInSponsored by BowerGroupAsia, a strategic advisory firm that specializes in the Indo-Pacific