In the dead of night, as people sleep, that is when the spirits creep. As the bell tolls three dark things take power, we like to call it the supernatural hour. Hey, welcome to the Supernatural Hour Podcast. I'm your host, Raven.
This is Rogue. This is Doc, and I'm Chad. Today is being brought to you by Castle's Art Studio. The whole day is?
Or just the business? The whole day. It's been a really long month. Okay.
Today was brought to you by the letter O. Sure. Oh, no. Okay, for the business.
We're not going to have a paranormal investigation. Probably until January, we're working on some things right now to get that going. We're looking forward to a couple of things we want to do then. We are looking at having a year end review in November.
We're still putting that together. We'll get you more information on that. We just wanted to touch real briefly on our TikTok. We have 1,615 patrons.
If you're not already a subscriber to our TikTok, please go out and do that. Our YouTube were up to 125. We did some pretty cool events for Halloween, and we're going to talk about those a little bit, but people that attended those events, signed up for things. Awesome.
They kind of helped that I made one of those little. What do they call it? QC codes. QC codes.
Do you want to see codes and just have them right there? I can't scan this thing. Scan it. You remember now.
It's like a... Subscribe. Well, the fun thing with TikTok is those teenagers just run out of TikTok. You don't have to ask them.
It's like a drug. It's like a TikTok. So, Rogue, what do you got going? Well, we went and we visited a few libraries, and we went to the Salt Lake Carnegie Library, and that was a pretty special building.
Yeah, that was the Chapman Library, and it was a Carnegie Foundation Library from the 1920s or 1930s when they originally did that one. Right, and it was beautiful inside. It was probably... Such a beautiful building.
Yeah, just old, probably what they said it was built in 1918 or 1920? I think it's an area. Right in that area. Just beautiful woodwork.
There's something about woodwork, old woodwork in a building that I just really like. Right, and they had kept the original shelving, and so much of it. It was just true and original. It's just really a beautiful building.
So, I actually admired the building. You know, it was a fabulous experience, but I really admired the building. That's what stood out to me. Right, and they had some pretty impressive activity going on.
One of the things that they said they had going on was several years ago they had a Christmas tree, and where this Christmas tree was, you had to have a ladder to get to it. I mean, it was visible, but it was up high on a little flat area, and they decorated it, and they came back the next day, and all the decorations had been taken off and just lined up on the shelf, and then the block drains did it. Right, or the little kid footprints that they had found in the dust up on a shelf where no little kid footprints should be? No, in the shelf.
I don't know if it was built in or if it was one that they had just put in there, but it wasn't very wide, and unless it was screwed to the wall, if you got upon it, it would tip over. And aside from that, this little, it was like a little fire, it was a shelf, not a fireplace. This little shelf was directly across from the librarian station, and it wasn't a very big library, and it was high enough that if a little kid tried to climb up on there, someone would see them, and they would tell them to get down, and then you would see like scuffling in the dust, but they only saw footprints. All I have in my mind is the library scene from Ghostbusters, just very classic, spooky library.
It was old like that, files flying out of it. Well, they had Kirk out, like, they did, but they did have books that flew off of their shelf, they sat downstairs, they showed us the, and they had a case where that happened, and then they did have, there's a female ghost there, so it almost is Ghostbusters. It's pretty much Ghostbusters. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your segment.
Very cool library. Of course, yeah, that is a great library, and I don't want to set aside the American Fork Library that was also intriguing. That one for me, I was locked outside, and I'm not a purple alien, Joy-Bian locked outside, was not on purpose, thankfully. However, in my complaining of rope does not like to be locked outside when she's cold and not prepared, I looked over and I seen a door open, and I was able to come in and bring the people in with me, and later after talking with the librarians, that is a door that no one has a key to, a door that's never unlocked, it is an exit door out of the break room, and it was not unlocked for us to be entering in and out of.
So that one was a little interesting as well. And then she had known about that. When she came around with my group, we went, we were on the backside of that building, and she went over and she said the other group was able to get in here. So we tried it, and it was locked.
I didn't know that. And that's what she told us. The other group was able to get in here, and we don't know how they did that, because they had activity. The librarians would hear voices at night when it was quiet.
So how many people did we have at the lecture, and then it was kind of a mini investigation? Right, so that one, so when we did the libraries, we usually do about an hour presentation with a PowerPoint, kind of a we call it paranormal 101, and you'll have a question answer period after it, and then we'll do a mini investigation. If you've investigated with us, usually we'll do some rotations, and we've never done rotations on a library investigation before, but we did this time, and we did just three, what, ten minute rotations? We didn't have much time for the investigation.
There's a ladybug climbing across my screen here a minute ago. It was November. I thought ladybugs were all dead or hibernating. It's a little late about praying.
We were participating in paranormal podcasts, because we've got one. There's our host, Ladybug. Anyway, she had 50 people sign up. She'd be in the librarian, and I think most of them were there.
I think there was about... I thought it was 47 or 48, she said. That was before she had. I mean, that was a few days prior.
I think everybody had signed up, but I think only about 35 to 40 came. Yeah. It's still pretty good turnout. It was a really good turnout.
Absolutely. It was a very good turnout, and everybody was great. Everybody was interested. And some of the people that turned out showed up at the Indian Hills haunted horror, too.
They did. Awesome. We'll talk about that in a minute, but let's go on with the library. Any more?
Come on. Go. So, well, we separated into teams, so I only had a certain amount of experiences to go over, because it was pretty quiet for us. I had a gentleman that had dowsing rods.
He was talking to two ladies that would sit there and spin the dowsing rods, and really was entertaining the crowd quite well. Ultimately, all three groups kind of came to the same conclusion that there were two gentlemen spirits that were downstairs, and then there were two female spirits upstairs. And they didn't really mingle a whole lot. They didn't really get along.
And not like they weren't mad at each other or anything, but they just didn't hang. They kept their separate spaces. But the American Fork Library is in a park. And part of the park has a DUP, which is Daughters of the Utah Pioneer section, where there was four or five little cabins.
Mm-hmm. Some little historic cabins that were first in American Fork, first homes in American Fork. Right. And we didn't really have time to go inside the cabins, and I guess it was kind of off-screen.
They weren't open for that. But they did let us go, because they have them, you know, an advanced in area. They did let us inside the advanced in area. And my group had a gentleman, a little kid, a young man, who was about 14, and we were there for just a few minutes by the cabins.
And he said, uh, I feel like someone was pulling the back of my jacket. And after some yes-no questions through the K2 meter, we determined it was a teenage girl that thought he was cute. And... Trying to get his attention?
Trying to get his attention, we told her that she had to stay there. His mother was very emphatic that she not follow him home. Mm-hmm. And then he could sleep all night.
And his dad said, no more ghosts, that's for you until you're older. I happened to know his mom. So she was there too. But it was a fun night.
Yeah. And this, I mean, this little gal spirit, I mean she was flying. She was not even cute. So, so the other thing we did...
That's fun. Yeah, so the other thing we did was the Indian Hills horror haunted house. Did I say that right? Yes.
I was in trouble with it. No, you nailed it. Awesome. Very nice.
Awesome. So we did a TikTok live on Sunday night because they ran at Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And Doc participated in it. He was ready to go.
Yes. Well, two of the three nights I was ready to go. I was an evil, like, lab, mad scientist guy for the other night. But pretty awesome turnout.
I think we were close to 1200 people total. So 1100 maybe. And that was a total of eight hours was all. Yep, eight hours was all worth.
Oh, a lot more eight hours of shows of haunting. Yeah. And we had a pretty awesome haunted house. You know, we put about, you know, we start early October 1st, sometimes even in September and, you know, building things out.
And it was great. I was actually down there tonight pulling things down. You were breaking down, breaking it down is a lot easier than putting it up. And we'll be doing that for a few days still.
But it was great. We had an awesome turnout. Had a lot of people from work that went through and we made a lot of children cry. And a lot of parents are very happy about their children crying.
It was so much fun to watch. Yeah. So, all right, we had our booth up just right at the where they come out. Yes.
And it's funny because little kids would come out crying and the parents would be laughing hysterically because their kids were crying. And some people walk out, you know, because they're trying to be tough and people would come out screaming, I think, standing by the entrances is the most fun part of that haunted house. We had, I think we had more crying children this year than we had in the previous 14 years combined. We scared a hell of a lot of kids.
That's a good haunting weekend. So what's the difference? Doc, there's a difference between a haunted house and a spook alley. Oh, I don't know.
You didn't know that? This is this is according to Klaus. Well, I'd love to hear it. A spook alley is for like children 12 and under where you don't scare the bejippers out of them.
You just spook them and you have a little fun and we're even thinking about maybe doing a little spook alley for some of the kids in the neighborhood this next year. Nice. Put a little just a little walkway and let them go through and run them around the back of the house. What you're trying to say is Klaus felt guilty.
We scared so many kids. No, well, this will certainly not be that because this will be like doing it on a weekday night before Halloween because we'll be down there for Halloween. This will be a one night on a Wednesday kind of thing. But things like, you know, spaghetti with them feeling it and telling them it's got some singing pumpkins.
Singing pumpkins. A little bit fog. So that'll be more of the spook alley rather than the haunted house. And the haunted house is when you don't dare turn the corner because you don't know what standing there.
Because you're going to get eaten by a clown. Or more. In the spider room. I don't like the spider room.
Anyway, it was a lot of fun though. We met a lot of really cool people that stopped by our booth and talked to us and we've got a bunch of residential in the works. And tell them about your other cool TikTok thing that you did with the drums, the Tesla coils that you watched. Oh, so the haunted house, our haunted house started at eight.
But while we were setting up down the street, I mean, you can see it from where we were just sitting, there was a man with these huge, huge Tesla coils on either side of his driveway and he was sitting in the driveway with a computer and he would play songs on the Tesla coil. And I did a live. It's a little hard to find the lives and they only stay up for so long. So I'll actually post a video of it on our TikTok.
But it was singing Ghostbusters and Zelda songs and thriller. It was really, really cool to watch. So we'll throw that on TikTok. It was very neat.
Very cool. All right. Main topic is brought to you by Utah freeze dried for pets. You can find us online at utoffreeze dried for pets.com.
So our main topic today is the Worthington house murder. And when I first heard of Worthington house, I don't know, to me it sounded like some old stately mansion in England, you know, in 1747. But it's actually very recent. It happened in 2002.
A lady by the name of Krista Worthington. And it happened not in Cape Cod, but in like a suburb of Cape Cod called Truro, Truro, Massachusetts. And she was a fashion writer. And she did fashion writing for, she was an A-list fashion writer, basically.
Like Vogue and, yeah, some of those bigger. And a New York City life stuff. Yeah. Yep.
And she had done stuff internationally for Paris and Milan and, you know, those things. Yeah. And she would go to parties with Woody Allen and people like that. And so, you know, she's living her best life.
She'd had kind of a trouble life. She'd had a little hard time with personal relationships. And we were watching one thing about her. And a friend of hers said that her life was full of regrets.
And one of the things she regretted was not having children. So she actually had a baby at the age of 43, a little girl named Ava. And Ava was two and a half years old when Krista was found murdered. So what happened was one of her friends found her.
And the friend was allegedly returning a flashlight. When I say allegedly, we're still not entirely sure who did this, but we'll get there. I'm jumping ahead. Now he had been a former boyfriend.
Yes. And he, when they found him and maybe I'm skipping ahead, he was actually with his father when he was allegedly returning the flashlight. Right. Okay.
And so he actually went to the door and knocked and there wasn't an answer. And he was able to look through the window and he saw Ava Lane on the ground. And you know, his first reaction wasn't, oh, she's dead, but you know, maybe she's driven fallen or passed out. He goes into the house and he picked up the baby and took her outside, gave her to the father, went back in to see if he could find a phone to call, couldn't find a phone in the house, actually had to go to a different house to make a phone call, called the police.
And you can find this recording online. And you know, he basically says, you know, you need to send someone to this address, you know, to this house, you know, Krista Worthington's house, you know, I think she's dead. And I am not a detective by any stretch of the imagination, but from my limited experience, he sounds legitimately shaken on the phone call, you know, kind of confused and then you know, like he's, you know, in haste, get someone here. You know, there's something that's not right.
And the sad thing is just the state of the baby, you know, it had been at least 24 hours, the work she had been with her mother. And she was about two and a half. She was two and a half. You know, at first, I didn't even write down the name of the guy who looked for her.
Wow, researchers, not us. But he thought not me. But at first, she didn't see any blood. And you know, just the way the body was situated and everything.
And when they, you know, kind of, while they were waiting for the policeman to come, one of the things that they noticed about the baby, she wasn't covered in blood, but she had blood on her. Some of the things that they noticed was blood on like her, like Ava's little girl, her bloody handprints were on a Disney video that she tried to put the VCR on her own Sippy Cup. And they determined that she tried to feed her mother with a Sippy Cup. They found Ava's fingerprints of blood on the box of Cheerio.
She was able to pull down from a counter. She would tell the police, you know, mommy fell down. And apparently Ava was still nursing a little bit. And so when this man found her, she was actually nursing when he went in.
But the man that found her, when he gave Ava to his father, he said, I just found Ava, or I just found Krista. I think she's D-E-A-D. He didn't even want to say it in front of her daughter. When they found her, she had been stabbed to the chest so deeply that the blade had gone in and nicked the floor underneath her.
And she'd been beaten, she'd been raped, it was pretty nasty. I guess her cell phone was on the floor by her. And it had the digit 9 punched in it. Like she'd been trying to call 911 and just couldn't finish that phone calls.
Like if she could have just gotten two more numbers in, they may have been able to find out who did it. Now one of the interesting things about this whole situation, and we'll get to who they put in jail, but it's not even really definitive that he's the guy that did it. There's still even not sure. There's some people that say they put the wrong person in jail.
And part of the problem is just all the contamination of evidence. The people running in, because the guy that found her, you know, ran through the house trying to find a phone. And I guess when he ran off to try to find a phone somewhere else, his father went in trying to find a phone. And then Ava, I mean she's doing a half, you can't blame her.
So any evidence that could have been there was just really hard to find and contaminated. Yeah, and one of the things I said that she was wearing like there was a green cloak or a green coat or something that was at the crime scene, but it didn't get documented with the evidence and people testified about it being there in their interviews, but it wasn't collected. There was some shoddy collection. Right.
And one of the issues that they talked about is just this was such a peaceful little area and that there hadn't been any violent crime in there since like the 1950s, I think 1958. Yeah, the last murder was like 1958. And the so that crime detective scenes really on the newest procedures predating DNA evidence and I don't even show what they're doing. So just with the contamination of evidence and then just lack of I guess they finally did bring some people in from Boston.
So that's what I was saying. I was just trying to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out how to figure out. But I think, you know, kind of what I want to talk about a little bit are the different people that could have done it. And there's a lot like we said before she just did not she was not looking love and just had a bunch of not so great partners.
Yeah, and they weren't great, great. Just she just didn't have a good look. So one of the guys named was Tim Arnold. He was actually a former boyfriend and he was an author wrote several books.
Tim was a children's book titled The Winter Mittens and they dated for about a year. And he actually continued to help her take care of Ava even after they broke up. So it wasn't an ugly relationship and he was actually the one that found her. So Tim Arnold I did write it down.
Yay, me. But after some investigation they did clear him. They said no, you know, he's not but he was he was actually one of them. The one that I thought was interesting was Christopher Toppie Worthington and this was her father.
She and her father did not have the best relationship. He was a person who was just for quite a long time. He was a Harvard educated lawyer and he was a civil prosecutor. Had been, he wasn't at the time for the state attorney general's office and at the time of her murder he was 72 at the time and he was in a relationship with a gal named Elizabeth Porter who was 29.
She had a colorful life. She was a former prostitute and heroin addict. And for obvious reasons Krista wasn't too thrilled with this and you know was a very upset with her father about this relationship. And they weren't married, they were just having a relationship but he was supporting her financially and Krista did not approve of this at all.
So you almost wonder if why Elizabeth wasn't. But wouldn't the little girl have known it was grandpa? Didn't the little girl see anything? You would think so and they questioned her you know about as well as you can question the two and a half year old.
I've seen not snippets about this case in particular but you know different cases where they interview small small children and it's hard to get information from them. Sure. But you almost wonder Elizabeth Porter is not one of the suspects that I found listed. You would, I have watched enough IDTV that those girlfriends can definitely have issues.
All the suspects were men. So yeah so so so daddy. Well there was that DNA evidence. Yeah so she was raped.
There's that. So there's that. Kind of makes the girl less of a suspect. But she could at least be on there and then be cleared.
Yeah one of the things that's interesting to me is just how brutally she was murdered and then they didn't touch the kid. Like you know like the kid just do her thing. Yeah the kid may have been up asleep in the other room. I mean may not have been way instead what happened but it's just one of those things.
There's such a weird polarization there where it's like stabbed, raped, murdered and there's like kitty and Cheerios trying to pop bloody VHS into the VCR or whatever. I mean. And then you wonder too did they know the child was there but didn't have a beef with the child and at least had enough moral compass to not kill an innocent child. Right.
But then you go well who would have a moral compass to do that to a woman. Someone that you really agree. Yeah. You'll kill the two year old's mother who's going to take care of her now.
So the one that we want to talk about there was actually quite a few suspects. Most of them were cleared. The one that actually went to jail was a fellow by the name of Christopher McCowan. And there is a lot a lot on the internet about him.
When we did the research on it, this was it was really hard to find a whole lot of information about this. But you could find a lot of information on Christopher McCowan. I almost wanted to change the topic to Christopher McCowan. What did or didn't he do?
But we didn't. So he was actually a garbage man in the area. And it's a smaller area. Most people know it.
Now one thing about her home is where her home was. You had to know where it was to go there. You're not going to just stumble across it. You know, it wasn't a crime of opportunity.
It wasn't, oh, hey, here's a house. Let's go see what's inside. You had to know where to go to get there. And he had actually had a little bit of a colored past.
You had some sexual assaults and some things that when they said, okay, let's look into his past and what happened to Krista. It wasn't a big shocker. You know, they lined up. It was plausible that he did this thing.
Pretty well. Absolutely. He was so when this went down, they actually, you know, they did the rape kit on her during the autopsy and found that there was evidence of a rape. And so they went to the town and said, okay, we need you all to give a DNA sample.
And quite a few of them did. And they actually didn't get around to testing all of them because they just didn't have the resources and the time to do that at the time. But several people came forward. He was one of them.
The voluntarily came forward. The voluntarily came forward. And I mean, that alone doesn't clear you. Right.
You would think because I would think you did. But there were a lot of men that were like, oh, we're not doing it. So you know, you have to ask yourself why? What else have you done?
If you didn't kill her. Right. What else have you done? Wow.
So, but when they did run a few of the DNA tests and he has actually matched the evidence that they found on her, you know, according to the rape. And so they're like, okay, you done it. We got our guy. But he claims that it was consensual.
And he says, you know, the course of doing his duties, you know, he went in. And I don't remember if he said she asked him to come in for some reason. And they were talking and one thing turns to another. They're doing the deed.
But he says it was consensual. So instead of it being a rape, there was a consensual sexual event prior to her murder. And so it was involving two different people. There was some discrepancies though, because first he says he didn't know her outside of the trash route.
But then he says, oh, no, we had a consensual. So there was that little discrepancy. It was later that he admitted. And so it's like, are you nervous and you're claiming you don't know, but then you fess up?
I don't know. With the garbage guy. So McAllen told police that there was another man named Jeremy Frazier that was also there that night and that the two of them beat Worthington, but Frazier had killed her. So he claims he's innocent, but yet he says he was there and another man was there.
They actually found fingerprints of McAllen on a blanket because there was a blanket close by. That's not a good defense though. We just beat her up real bad. And someone else killed her.
But I didn't know her. Yeah. So for me, if I'm a police officer. But we had consensual sex and then I beat her up with a friend.
And he's the one that killed her. So I guess it was at the trial, his defense attorney at the time said McAllen and Worthington had consensual sex on Thursday before she was murdered when he was there at her house for a regular trash pickup. And she was actually discovered on Sunday. McAllen later told 2020 he lied to police about not knowing her to protect her reputation.
But police believe that McAllen went to Worthington's house alone the night that she was killed. But he is long maintained as innocent. He to this day, as far as I know, I mean, because I chat with him on a regular basis. And now his penthouse.
But he's still to this day maintains his innocence. But it's like, how can you be innocent if you said you beat her up and this Frazier guy killed her and your DNA is all over her and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. No, it does not. See, this just even gave me a headache right now.
I couldn't be the detective. I'd listen to a couple things that testimony and I'd be like, yeah, I'm out. I'd go chase some butterflies in unicorn snow. No kidding.
Yeah, well, that's a really sad situation. It really is. And so, you know, to this day, I don't think anybody really has any definitive evidence just because of just the contamination of the site and everything. Sounds to me like there's some pretty good definitive evidence.
Yeah, and they convicted him, right? He's in jail? Yeah, he's in prison. He's trying to get a retrial.
Yeah, he's working on the retrial. Some people think he's innocent. Some people think that he's being straight up. Some people thought Ted Bundy was innocent too.
I know. Very charismatic. There's lots of people that think lots of people are innocent that the preponderance of evidence doesn't seem to support that idea. Oh, I seen there bringing the Scott Peterson case back up.
Oh, they really have. Yeah, his sister or somebody or she feels that she has enough evidence now to prove that somebody else. Yeah, I could not do this line of work. I really couldn't be doing it.
Yeah, right. So, just one last little thing about my count on. He says he found Worthington attractive. And this is a quote she had something with her, unquote, and that being near her inner home, one thing just led to another.
Oh, yes. The hots turned into a killing, apparently. Garbage man just knocks on my door all the time. Right.
Yeah, seems to shadios out. So there's actually... Oh, go ahead. What happened to the little girl do we know?
So she is actually being raised by, I think their names were Jackson's. I think they were friends of hers. Oh. Because she was on the outside with her parents?
Yeah. So a lawyer who was a murder suspect. Yeah. I'm not with a 29-year-old...
I'm not a great relationship. I'm not a great relationship. Yeah, probably not. That's not who you want to be raising yourself.
That's not who you're going to put down as your... I think we're going to find somebody else on that will. Yeah. Oh, here's an I'm not Jackson.
That's to be my children. Susan jacket. It looks like the lady who is raising me. But even now would be 23 to 24 years old, so she's probably raising herself now.
Yeah. Hopefully she's normal. Right. So we are not a crime podcast.
Right? Two and a half, I wouldn't think you remember very much, honestly. Hopefully, but it's in the news so much and with her feeding her mom and being so involved, kind of in the case, I don't know. Yeah, there might be some memories that have been reinforced, but I would think that...
I'm not trying to think of... I mean, I didn't have anything that traumatic happened when I was doing it. Right. But I don't remember being doing it now.
Maybe one little snippet here and there. Right. So we're not a crime podcast, right? We're super natural.
So what's the super natural bent here? Hmm. I will tell you what the super natural bent is here. So this little bit is from Susan jacket, the lady that ended up taking care of Eva.
She just went on to say how much this little girl was wanted and how much Krista wanted to be mother. And she was a single mother. She was single the whole time. I'm not even sure we know who the father is.
I don't know that I ever ran across that in the little teeny bit that is available online. But Susan said that if you went to Krista's house, she said the yard was just a jumble of toys. Stoves, refrigerators, will-be-carrages. And I've seen pictures inside the home and it wasn't like a hoarder house or it wasn't filthy, but there was just a lot of stuff she doted on this little girl.
She said we go inside, every available surface was covered with toys or little boxes of cereal and treats, pacifiers everywhere. She said you'd go in on the main star, right there'd just be stacks of children's books. The banister had fish net over it to keep Eva from falling through the banister. And she said at the time of the murder, which I think was in February, but the Christmas tree was still up.
And it was a few days before Christmas, Warlyton went to a dinner at a friend's house. I'll try to see when this murder took place on January 6th. So, you know, Christmas tree is still up, obviously she couldn't take it down. But Warlyton went to dinner at a friend's house in a village just a week or so before she was murdered.
And, you know, as you do at all parties, and I'm sure you go to an A-list or party with people and keep going. It's probably pretty fancy, but the adults are talking and the kids are off for all of you, and doing what they're doing for Christmas party. And Krista had a friend by the name of Terry Reed. And he said I remember very clearly that Krista was talking and she stopped in mid-sentence.
And she just-every friend that she had said she doted on this little girl. And Terry Reed says I remember her saying I can't stand it, she's too adorable. She said I was supposed to wait for Christmas, but I can't. And at that point she brought out a shopping bag and gave Eva one of her Christmas presents, which was a pink tool tutu.
And, you know, Eva loved it, it was so cute, you know, she's two and a half, and she's got this pink frothy little tutu. So, she puts it on on and she continues, you know, happy dancing and twirling and playing with the kids. And then she did that. Krista just went on to her friends, you know, isn't she amazing?
And they said that with all the relationships in her life that just went poorly and came and went, and she never felt stable in a relationship with a man, Eva was the one relationship in her life that just stayed perfect and stayed. Not only was it a perfect relationship, but it was one that she maintained and was always there. And then going back to Susan Jacket, she said, since her mother died, Susan's mother, she personally had been on a spiritual path reading books about life after life and went on, you know, at once people passed. And she said it just put me in this frame of mind about, you know, my friend Krista.
And she says, I honestly, this is from the friend, she says I honestly don't think Krista's spirit left the house until the police got there. She said, you know, in her, just deep in her heart, she said I know Krista, and I know that she would not have left that little girl alone, you know, to fend for herself. And she said, I think she just stayed there that night looking over her baby, she just hovered. And she said it wouldn't surprise me if Krista stayed with her daughter until she knew that she was safe.
And not even just safe in that moment, but until she knew that she was safe as an adult. And this is, you know, people say, well, why would spirits stay? You know, why do you go ghost hunting? Why wouldn't the ghost just go right to heaven?
This is one of those instances that we've discussed where, you know, that mother loved that child so much, she's not going to pass and go, I'm out, see Eva. And she would stay with her until she felt comfortable and was that a week? Was it five years? Was it 10 years?
Is she still with Eva now? We don't know. You're torn between, do I stay here? Do I move on?
And like you said, with a two and a half year old baby that you decided to have pretty late in life because you really wanted a child. And by yourself? That's an awful lot of commitment, love, commitment and just dedication, right? You wouldn't want to move on from that, I'm sure.
Right. And you know, where you're just, you know, I keep using the word doting, but that's the word that just speaks to me right now, but you don't own this child and she is literally your life breath. And I mean, she's two and a half years old and she's still nursing for having sex. I mean, that's a very intimate, you know, mother child bond.
And I can't imagine that just being broken instantly. I did look around to see if there had been any sightings. And I didn't, you know, I looked every which way. This was the only paranormal aspect I could find, but it's a very strong one.
And it's one that, you know, we have run into this on investigations. We've run into a teen, a male teenage spirit that didn't want to cross over or hadn't crossed over because he and his father had a very bad relationship. And he was afraid to have to face his father in the next life. And that's why he had stayed.
He was born into spirits that didn't believe in an afterlife. And when suddenly there was one, they thought, well, dang, now we're a fear to go over because we haven't necessarily lived the kind of life we probably should have. So that's definitely very interesting. That's one reason why I like to go to dentist to find out why the spirits that haven't crossed haven't.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like just a rubber stamp automatic process. Right. Well, I think it comes down to the idea of agency we've talked about before, that, you know, we have agency and we can do things. We move on from, you know, the physical realm here.
You know, do we have to move on or can we choose to stay with our loved ones? That's an interesting question. But the idea of, oh, no, you know, you're dead and you have to move on and there's nothing. Now, you might not be able to interact with them.
You might not be able to do that, but you still have an agency possibly to stay and do that and you don't have to move on. And so, you know, entities and spirits may stay with their loved ones, even if there's nothing that they can really do, but they can observe and then try. Right. I know when I first started ghost hunting and not even when I started, well, yeah.
But my thought on ghosts was all ghosts are evil spirits and they're all trying to deceive us. But the more exactly, but the more I've gotten into it and the more that I've seen some stuff and I could be wrong. I tell people all the time I could die and go, I could pat me on the head and go, look out, get you are trying to figure things out. You were so wrong, you were talking to evil spirits all the whole time.
You know, that could happen. But, you know, just the idea of what Chad was saying with agency and saying, you know what, I have passed on, but I don't want to go to that other dimension yet. I want to stay in this realm, you know, for whatever reason. And I don't know what kind of, you know, that's one reason we go to, why?
You know, what at some point you have to go. You know, why have you chosen to stay? What happens if you stay? Right.
And to your point too. I mean, by the definition ghosts would be there us. I mean, I think the general populace is good for the most part. Right.
Most individuals are generally well intentioned, neutral at worst. There are some people who are just terrible and they're the ones who make news headlines by murdering people. Right. But, you know, if you think about interacting with a ghost, the probability of that ghost being an evil spirit is probably lower than we're thinking.
Right. Because if you think, at least in our religion, the doctrine is that only one third of the host of Heaven was evil. So that leaves two thirds that are just people, you know, in varying degrees of jerkiness. We're goodness.
We're goodness. We all have our own. Crankiness, cranky ghost. Yeah.
I agree with you. I think that in general, most people are good people that just want to feed their families and have relaxed a little on the weekend and make good people. And most ghosts are good ghosts. They die and they don't want to move on.
Yeah. And it might be they're confused. It might be there's unfinished business. It might be, you know, could be that they're just unsure of what's out there.
Right. I know what it is. I know what I'm here now. I don't know what happens if I go through that bright light.
I'm scared to move on. So, it's really interesting with that idea of, you know, spirits, you know, are human spirits having that opportunity to stay around. And it's not just, you know, it's not just Christian, you know, lore. It's pervasive across all sorts of different religions and cultures and everything that those are there.
And it's kind of the idea of the other evil spirits also, but of the ghosts, the spirits of the people, you know, who have passed having, you know, unstained and trying to finish unfinished business. Again, you hear stories all the time of, you know, someone who's passed and they've presented themselves to someone who's really struggling with their passing or, you know, coming to warn them. Or there's just too many stories out there. Going back to Krista Worthington though, there is a movie that came out in 2017 so fairly recently called Murder on the Cape.
It's based on this story. It's not a documentary. It's a movie. Very loosely based.
So, when you watch this. It's not a documentary. It's not a documentary. Fictionalized.
There is a really good on YouTube. It was a 2020 CBSC kind of a podcast. Yeah, there was a podcast deal. Like six or eight parts.
It was very good. You know, it's a podcast. It's on YouTube. It's a podcast.
You just stare at the same picture for hours. Kind of like our podcast. We do change pictures. We have some movement on ours.
So, and I have not watched this, but I'm interested in watching this. So I think we might just, just for something to watch. All right. That wraps up our main topic.
We're going to move on to the bucket list. We're out to you by OTAO's. It's a Mexican restaurant that has some pretty fancy tacos. They're really good.
They're tasty. A couple locations. Is it Ormond Linden that they're in? Yes.
Awesome. Check them out if you get, if you're ever in the area, they're fantastic. All right. So, today the bucket list is on me and I'm excited to finally have something to throw on my bucket list.
So, I found out that the original Kennecott Mine is in Alaska. And for those of you that don't know, I did work at the local Kennecott Mine here. It's an open pit copper mine. But they say that you can see from outer space.
It's a mile wide. So, for me to see that there is an abandoned ghost town from the original Kennecott, that intrigues me. So, I found this great article that said that back in 1990s, there were some construction workers trying to do some work there and mysteriously all of their tools like hammers and stuff would go missing. So, I would terrify the strongest man and so he would run off and wouldn't come back to work there.
So, I always like those kind of stories. I want to go there and have those types of experiences. I don't want stuff to disappear if I go there. Right?
Well, I grew up in a house where the stuff would disappear and we would find it in odd places. So, as long as we get to find it in odd places, it's okay. As long as it comes back? Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. So, did it say, did it say, where in Alaska, the Kennecott Mine is? Yeah, it's 300 miles east of Anchorage. So, this is in Alaska.
This is the original Kennecott Mine. Right. Yeah. Right.
You say Kennecott Mine is the Utah. Right. Right. Right.
Hilarious. So, Kennecott, the original Kennecott in Alaska has been abandoned now since the 1930s. So once the ore ran out, everybody left the town and it's been sitting there as a ghost town now for almost 100 years. So, it is being taken care of by the National Park Service and it is a big historical site now that's being maintained.
So, I don't know how much ghosty stuff is really still going on or if we could actually ghost hunt, but it looks like it's a very large property. So, I'm sure there's still all kinds of activity up there. I'm still trying to- Enough that it made it to the world's scariest haunted place book that I bought. Nice.
I'm still lamenting that I was going to just get in the car and drive over to Kennecott. Now I'm sad that it's in Alaska. Well, I thought you guys were just off really fast. Right.
When I first noticed it in the back of the book and the index, I was like, what do you mean? I used to work up there. What are you talking about? It's one of the scariest places I've got to know.
It's a little bit longer of a drive. Yeah. Got to go to Canada. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So, maybe one day we can get out of here and go see the original Kennecott. I don't know if the Canadian salina will be.
Mmm. That changes daily. We're getting close. We're getting close.
Maybe we can drive there one day. Road trip. Alright. Our paranormal junk drawer is being brought to you by Barbara Coast Saloon.
They've got a great little flat-iron steak on Thursday nights. They've got very tasty food. Rob and I went there not too long ago for lunch and I had their Philly beef and Swiss that's pretty tasty too. I haven't had anything that's bad there.
That's great. They also have that amazing breakfast brunch on Sunday mornings. What time? Wonderful.
I believe it's from 10 to like 2 in the afternoon. It goes probably until all of the biscuits are gone. It's very, very good. It's like 7.99.
Really relatively inexpensive. I'd be super happy they brought back their stuff. Okay. So, our bucket list.
I don't know if you've ever heard about this, but there is a headstone in the Salt Lake City Cemetery. It's for a lady named Lily Gray and her grave reads that she is the victim of the Beast 666. I have heard of this. Yeah.
It's pretty famous. She was buried there more than 50 years ago. And, you know, if you're walking through the cemetery and you see the victim of the Beast 666, you're going to be thinking what in the heck was she involved in? So, do you know much about this or have you just heard about it?
No. I read about it on Atlas Obscura, which is one of my favorite websites. It has just weird random things that you can see in different states. But they didn't give much detail as to what that actually meant.
Well, let me fill you in. Alright. I'll fill you in. So, we might get a little giggly here, but you know, whatever we haven't done that before.
The Utah State Historical Society gets a lot of questions about this oddly enough. And one of the library collection coordinators from the Division of State History, his name is Doug Mizner. They actually have some information on her. So, here's the deal.
According to the Division of State History, she died of natural causes. Okay. That's the Beast. Natural causes was the Beast.
There's more. Okay. We're not done. But, according to the State, she died of natural causes.
And that's not very interesting. Based on your reaction, right? Yeah. But another record from the State Archives from 1947 written by Lily Gray's husband, Elmer.
Mmm. It's like just something else. Okay. He indicates that his parents...
Wasn't Elmer in prison? Yes. So, prison hubby Elmer. Prison hubby Elmer.