EPISODE · Sep 3, 2015 · 32 MIN
Zeynep Ton: The Good Jobs Strategy, Lean Thinking, and Respect for People *
from Lean Blog Interviews: Real-World Lean Leadership Conversations in Healthcare and Beyond · host Mark Graban
Remastered January 2022 Episode page: https://www.leanblog.org/228 Labor Day is Monday, so maybe it's appropriate that my guest for episode #228 of the podcast is Zeynep Ton, an Adjunct Associate Professor of Operations Management at the MIT Sloan School of Management. You may have recently seen her being interviewed by Fareed Zakaria on CNN. Read her full bio here. She is author of the 2014 book The Good Jobs Strategy: How the Smartest Companies Invest in Employees to Lower Costs and Boost Profits. I saw Ton give a lecture at an MIT alumni event back in June and immediately bought and read the book (read my blog post about the book and parallels to Lean and healthcare). I highly recommend it and I wish more hospitals and health systems would pursue this “good jobs strategy” instead of being so focused on cutting labor costs. As Ton explains in the book and our discussion, this strategy is not about being kind or nice — it's just good business that drives better long-term results for all. In the podcast, we talk about: How she transitioned from industrial engineering and supply chain management to studying retail companies. In the vicious cycle of the “bad jobs strategy, ” why is this considered conventional wisdom that the way to maximize profits in a low-margin industry is to offer minimal pay, training, and hours? What are the components (and system) of “the good jobs strategy?” What connections do you draw between the good jobs strategy and Toyota or Lean? Do the companies or founders that have a good jobs strategy sort of naturally embrace it? Of the “good jobs” components, is it most difficult to help people see that 100% utilization is often very harmful and that “slack” is necessary? Is it easier for privately held companies to pursue the good jobs strategy having less quarterly financial pressure? Any thoughts on why society focuses so much on wages, while seemingly ignoring other aspects of workplace conditions that need to be improved?
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What this episode covers
In this episode, Mark Graban speaks with Zeynep Ton, author of The Good Jobs Strategy, about why treating labor as a cost creates a vicious cycle of poor performance, high turnover, and frustrated customers — especially in retail and healthcare. Drawing from years of research, Ton explains how companies that invest in people through stable schedules, adequate staffing, cross-training, and operational slack consistently outperform competitors focused on labor cost minimization. The discussion highlights strong parallels with Lean thinking and Toyota’s respect for people principle. This conversation is essential listening for leaders who want better results without burning out their workforce — and who are willing to rethink how work is designed, measured, and managed. Editor’s note (2026): This conversation remains highly relevant amid today’s debates about algorithmic scheduling, labor utilization, and the future of “good jobs.”
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Zeynep Ton: The Good Jobs Strategy, Lean Thinking, and Respect for People *
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