Zion Today, Not Someday | An Interview with Dan Duckworth

Dan Duckworth speaks, teaches, and writes on leadership, power, and systemic change. His forthcoming book, The Leader in Chains (spring 2026), challenges conventional ideas and calls for a radical rethinking of leadership—and how it is developed. You can read his Zion Leadership essays at danduckworth.substack.com or connect with him on LinkedIn. Links LeadingSaints.org/Zion DanDuckworth.Substack.com Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights In this episode, Dan Duckworth engages in a thought-provoking discussion about the concept of Zion and its implications for leadership within the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He begins by addressing the common resistance to transformational leadership in church settings, noting that many members feel uncomfortable with the idea of change-making. Dan emphasizes that the principles of leadership are deeply rooted in scripture, particularly in the teachings of Jesus Christ. He articulates the need for a “faithful vocabulary of leadership” that resonates with church members, moving away from secular leadership jargon that may not align with their beliefs. Dan challenges the traditional view of hierarchy in church leadership, asserting that God’s ways are different from man’s ways. He references the Doctrine and Covenants, specifically highlighting that in Zion, there shall be no king or ruler, suggesting that true leadership should not be about hierarchy but about unity and collaboration. Dan elaborates on the idea that Zion is not merely a future state but a present social condition characterized by a people who are of one heart and one mind. He encourages listeners to reflect on their own communities—families, wards, and councils—asking whether they operate under a hierarchical structure or if they embody the principles of Zion. He argues that the work of building Zion requires breaking free from systemic forces that constrain behavior and perpetuate the status quo. Dan also explains that leadership involves creating space for individuals to use their gifts and talents, rather than adhering strictly to established hierarchies. He emphasizes that leaders should discern the needs of their communities and empower others to step into leadership roles, regardless of formal titles or positions. Dan shares a scriptural example from the Old Testament, recounting how Moses responded to the concerns of Joshua regarding unauthorized prophecy. Moses expresses a desire for all people to be prophets, highlighting the importance of recognizing and nurturing the gifts within the community. He contrasts this with the story of Aaron and Miriam, who are chastised for their desire to lead without the proper authority, illustrating the balance between recognizing divine gifts and maintaining order. Dan underscores the significance of understanding the difference between appointed leaders and true leaders. He notes that a bishop, while holding an ecclesiastical role, may not necessarily be a leader in the transformative sense. Instead, he should act as a facilitator, allowing the gifts of others to flourish and ensuring that the community operates in alignment with God’s mercies. Dan concludes by addressing the challenges faced by those who feel called to lead in a Zion-like manner, particularly in the face of institutional resistance. He encourages listeners to be mindful of the timing and approach when implementing change, suggesting that leaders should work quietly and effectively to build Zion without drawing unnecessary attention or backlash from the established hierarchy. He emphasizes the importance of direct communication with the Lord to ensure that one’s actions align with divine guidance, ultimately reinforcing the idea that building Zion is a collective effort that requires courage, discernment, and a willingness to embrace the messiness of community life. 00:05:08 – The Nature of Hierarchy in the Church 00:09:22 – Zion as a Present Goal vs. a Future Event 00:12:08 – Leadership in Zion 00:17:18 – The Role of Gifts and Discerning Leadership 00:23:25 – Distinction Between Ruler and Leader 00:28:13 – Ecclesiastical Work vs. Zion Building 00:29:54 – Anointed vs. Appointed Leaders 00:45:02 – Navigating Resistance and Subversive Building The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, <a href="https://leading...