Zooming in on weird cameras

Welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of small phones that are very tired and just want to take a little rest. I'm your host, Alison Johnson. And on today's show, I'm talking about two of my very favorite things, small phones and weird cameras. First, I'll be joined by some old friends at Petapixel who are going to talk to me about what's been happening in the camera industry over the last five years. Then Dominic Preston is going to jump on and we are going to tackle a huge pile of listener questions in a mega hotline segment. All that is coming up right after the break. So stay tuned.

Support for the show comes from Satellite. If you've ever thought there has to be a better way to manage my pet's health and safety, then this message is for you. The Satellite Collar Go is an AI-powered GPS dog tracker that helps you keep tabs on your dog, especially in locations where they might run away. And Satellite, since AI, can help you spot challenges in your pet's health. While others just track locations, Satellite decodes lives. Go to Satellite.com to get 35% off with promo code VERGECAST. That's S-A-T-E-L-L-A-I.com to get 35% off with promo code VERGECAST. Satellite.com. Promo code VERGECAST.

Smooth, buttery, marshmallow-y, warm, soft. Socks, underwear, tees, and more. Bombas. Everyday comfort worth obsessing over. Visit bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash audio. One purchase equals one donated. Always.

Support for the show comes from ServiceNow. AI is moving fast across the enterprise, but without visibility, it's just chaos. Different tools, different models, different teams using AI in completely different ways. ServiceNow turns that chaos into control. With the AI control tower, you see all your AI across the business in one place. What it's doing, what it's done, and what it's about to do. So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com.

Welcome back. I am here with some of my very favorite kinds of people, which is to say, camera nerds. I am joined by the faces of Petapixel's YouTube channel. We've got Jordan Drake, of course, you know, co-host, editor, videographer. Hello, Jordan. Occasionally show up on camera. Yes. Yes. Important to note. Doing all the posts to make the other person look fantastic. It's the important job. Already looked fantastic right from the start. I twist a couple knobs, you know, I dial some dials. You're putting polish on a diamond ring. Come on. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so this is setting the tenor for our show. Thank you.

That's Chris Nichols, you know, host, photographer, kind of man about town. Oh, I appreciate that. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And I'm joined by Viren Pavik, who's our supervising producer here at The Verge, also a camera nerd and tests the weird cameras we get in. Is that fair? I guess. Some of them are flying. Most of them are flying if you can get them in the U.S. Oh, I see. A lot harder nowadays. Good if you can get them. Those cameras. It's been a big year for weird cameras. We'll have to touch on that. I am still ready to talk about weird cameras. Maybe that's... I'll back up just a little bit and like...

set the context for how we all know each other. So the two of you are at Petapixel now, you know, long running photography website. Previously, we all worked together at DP Review. So we've been nerding out about camera stuff for a while now. You guys have been doing this for forever, you know, camera store TV. You've got like 15 years of making videos about cameras under your belt. So I have lured you here under the guise of hanging out and just like catching up. I feel like we are usually under extreme duress when we all hang out. It's like at a live event, we're running around. It's like very sweaty and hard to catch up. And I've been kind of like out of the camera.

game for like the last five years and I need a little bit of a refresher on what has happened. So you three are the very people to talk to about this. Nice. Well, thanks for having us. It was great. I'm so excited. Give me kind of like your takes on what have been some of the kind of like landmark or standout launches or maybe just innovations like in the camera technology space, you know, in the past maybe five years. Viren, do you have like a first thought on this?

In five years. What has happened in five years? Olympus went away, but they're still making a camera under a different brand. Yes. Fuji became like one of the hottest cameras out there in X100. And the last two have been insanely popular. And that's been a lot of fun. We've also just like went all the way back to the 2000s and are now taking photos with like Olympus Mew. And, you know, point and truth with a lot of just like high key flash photography. And, but no, a lot more has happened. All of the cameras can now film like incredible video too. For sure. Yeah.

I think to add on that, yeah, I mean, video is certainly a huge thing that's happened in the five years, which makes Jordan happy and me indifferent. And then I would say also another big change is just how everybody's caught up. You know, five years ago, there was more variety and how good people's autofocusing was, what their capabilities were. Now I feel like the sensors are all very similar. Everybody's got good dynamic range. Most players have very comparable autofocus now at this point. Everybody's rocking subject detection. Like, you know, it's kind of like all the trends that one person has started, everybody else has caught up to and jumped on. So yeah, it's kind of a time now where camera design, I think is more important and has to be more exciting than anything else.

We've definitely fixed the image quality issue like a while ago. We're not complaining about image quality anymore. It's forbidden. That's what's so interesting. Like the image quality thing is something every year we looked at as the primary thing. Like, oh, we got more megapixels. It's better in low light now. We're actually seeing the opposite thing happen over the last five. If you look at the higher end cameras, they're like, look, we can make our picture quality a little bit worse in exchange for speed because speed is going to be better for that autofocus and burst shooting and all that video stuff that's happening. So, yeah, it's kind of funny. I still look back to cameras, you know, from back when you were working, Allison, like a D850 from Nikon. And I'm like, that still takes better pictures than even top of the line.

pro cameras at this point. But the new stuff does way better video, way better focus, much faster burst rates, that kind of stuff. So that's kind of a compromise they've been willing to make. Yeah. Can someone explain to me what global shutter is? Does that tie into the like speed thing? Like with autofocus?

It does, but I would say in our world of photography, only one player has actually incorporated it properly. So, you know, the Sony A93 is a very cool camera, has global shutter. It means you can fire a full electronic shutter, no rolling shutter issues whatsoever, no flash sync problems either. Yeah, none of the wibbly wobblies and stuff. And of course, it unlocks insanely fast burst rates. And Sony, of course, have fantastic autofocus. So it's very much a purpose-built sports and action camera. But, you know, kind of like what Jordan was talking about, you do sacrifice a bit of dynamic range, megapixel count, that kind of stuff. Really, it's made for a specific goal, and that is to get as many shots.

Even with flashes flying, like it's a great paparazzi red carpet camera, you know, great video capabilities. But we're seeing that also with stack sensors in general, which don't quite get there, but do a lot of what that does. And that's probably another big change in the last five years. Just the proliferation of high quality stack sensors. Okay. And stack sensor is like...

BSI, right? Like there's layers of pixels and... Beyond the BSI, I would say, yeah. I was just going to say like the BSI is what we saw previously. And then the stack sensors, they've just put the electronics right on the chip. And that's, again, giving us that faster readout for that other stuff. But again, a slightly worse image quality than we had before. Okay. That's so interesting that the image quality is like a thing people are fine with kind of sacrificing a little bit.

everybody's kind of caught up to this idea that image quality isn't the BL end all because they're all good. And now people are, as we've talked about, preferring bad image quality, right? They're preferring cameras with tiny sensors and they're going analog. And we've seen a real resurgence of lenses that are designed to look like old vintage lenses along with all the flaws and failures and issues with those lenses. For a little while there, it was like an arms race to get the greatest, latest and greatest mirrorless camera out on the market. Yeah. It's an arms race to make the image a little bit shittier now. It seems like it. Yeah. Let's talk about compact cameras because I am,

I think just as confused as anyone about what is happening. I mean, you guys sold compact cameras to people many, many years ago. Brand new. And all of a sudden they're back. Yeah. Not even used on eBay. It was brand, like someone actually came in and gave us $900 for this tiny crappy little camera. And they loved every second of it. And it fit in an Altoids Mint container and they were so happy. Oh, yeah. Yeah, those are the days. Viren, what was your, did you have a crappy little digital camera like back in the day? Back in the day, I had a lot of Sony CyberShots. Okay. If you give me like 12 seconds, I can grab two of them. Yeah. Yes, please. Hold on, sorry. It looks like a tape recorder.

No, I had one that did that, too. I had it that's, like, super thin. Yeah, there's another one, which is probably a year later. Okay. Like, these companies were making cameras, like, constantly. So many. This is the one. Oh, look at that. That's the one that Sydney was rocking, yeah. Yeah, I went back home. I got the chargers. I got the memory sticks. I got a memory card reader. Sony memory sticks. Yeah, Pro Duo as well, or Pro or Duo. They still work. There was, like, another Sony camera that I had to use reverse image search to actually find out the real model of it. It was, I don't know how to describe it.

I just don't know how to describe it. It was like a tiny little, think about like a pillbox, and then you can rotate the lens. Oh, yes. The lens was only... Yeah, Nikon and Sony did those.

So here's the question. Did you guys actually use those back in the day or did you kind of rediscover them now, right? Because, you know, we sold those in the store and we played with all those cameras and tested them out. And like, yeah, they're garbage. Like the menus are terrible and everything's slow and the screens are bad. You know, and the image quality is fun, sure. But it was funny, but the designs were so interesting. Like that was the time where manufacturers would just throw everything at the wall to see what would stick. And it was really exciting. All these wacky, strange designs you would never, ever take risks on nowadays. Although I would say that, you know, some of the companies are now starting to come around and try some stuff again, which is kind of cool. I wonder how much of the digital camera renaissance is about people discovering that it's like nice to hold a camera.

camera and you're when you're so used to using a smartphone yeah the weird factor is pretty good too but it's just the novelty is that what people are loving now is like the novelty because we had we were in the trenches you know what i mean it was horrible and now i think people like rediscovering are like oh this is so different and it's so like novel but no it was just garbage at the time but like yeah i did carry around my little cyber shot and took pictures of friends and it was just like that was the only only option you know it's just weird to think of it like that jordan you have a camera in your hands yeah so the last time i saw you allison i was waving this thing around i've put a video out since but if you look at it i think this is really cool because This is a Kodak V770 and it is kind of the origin to the smartphone camera solution. So they had this super thin thing. They're like, well, we can't make the zoom any bigger, the lens any wider, any brighter. So they just put two complete cameras in here. So it's a zoom lens and then an ultra wide and there are two separate sensors in there as well. So it's kind of, they came up with the solution before the smartphone manufacturers did. Well, even this is my favorite camera. This is the Panasonic GM5. It's the greatest camera of all time. We just made it. Yeah, we just made a video about it. And that was like one of our biggest first day views. Like it's crazy because everybody loves this stuff again. It's like a renaissance. I love it. Yeah.

Let's talk about weird cameras, because I feel like there is kind of a natural like synergy. Yeah, these are all weird. They are all super weird. There was kind of like a smushing where like every camera design sort of like became the same. I think that's happened with smartphones, too. Yes. But in the very recent past, we have seen some, I would say, really weird out there kind of camera designs. And I'm all about it. Like, I don't know. What is your guys' feelings about some of these?

I think we're going to fight. I don't know. What should we start with? Like, you know, I think it's as an overarching theme, I would say, I think it's great that manufacturers are trying different designs again. Like the Fujifilm X half is a good example of like a really cute, really adorable design with some fun features on it that harken back to the days of nostalgia. And I will admit like a camera like that did make me feel nostalgic for like a couple of days. And then after that, it wore off and I'm like, this isn't really there, right? Like it's kind of just a basic point and shoot camera with this sort of film experience. But I get it. If somebody hasn't had that, it would be super fun to look at a contact sheet again, whatever. But it's fun that the manufacturers are taking these risks.

How often do they hit, right? Because the Sigma BF is another example of something that was beautifully designed. Sigma always make weird cameras. They always have. I've always thought they're kind of trash, and I kind of thought this last one was too. It's beautiful trash. It's really gorgeous trash. Oh, no. Oh, no. We're about to disagree. We can come back to the Fuji, but I got to defend Sigma here. No, I think about this a lot. The camera that I missed the most is the Sigma BF. The one that I'm like, oh, man, I wish I had a little bit more time with it.

I really enjoyed using that camera. Like truly loved using it. It's like this unibody, kind of unibody metal slab of a camera. It is a Sigma full-frame camera that does some video, but it's not really good at it. It has a built-in storage.

Doesn't have any card slots. It has a microphone, but, like, you would never use it. It doesn't have a hot shoe. It can barely take photos in fluorescent light because of the electric shutter only. You're selling me on it. Yeah, this is not good. I know, right? This is just, like, a list of cons. And then there is the, hey, I went to use this for a little while, and I absolutely loved it. I thought the lenses are pretty good and everything, but I thought, you know, we live in a world where film simulations are everywhere. Everyone's trying to kind of do it. I thought they did pretty good with those. Yeah. But, you know, I really enjoyed how...

Okay, it has internal storage, which makes the camera super fast. Like, turning it on, saving the photos, operations in general, just, like, feel snappy. There's barely any dials on it, right? You have one main dial. Yeah. But in that dial, it's also a D-pad. You can kind of, like... That's a real problem. You can set the, like, what you want to change on it, left and right, and then use the click wheel, basically, to, like, change the settings. And it all shows on a little sub-monitor. And it made me kind of cycle through, you know, two to three options that I would use a lot. And I ended up using them a lot more. Like, the phone simulation and crop.

primarily. And I thought the photos were actually beautiful. I thought, as we said earlier, the autofocus is like not a problem with these cameras anymore. And I thought they did a pretty good job there as well. You said it right there, though, Viren. The thing is, it made you do stuff because the Sigma BF is designed in such a way that you don't have alternative ways to control a camera. And one of the things that really drives me crazy as a photographer is if I have a camera or any product, I mean, even the iPad makes me mad for the same reason, nothing to do with photography, is if there are not multiple ways to control something, you know, logical, intuitive ways, if you're kind of forced to use it a certain way, I find that a little obnoxious. And like, the BF has got this weird thing because it's got a touchscreen, but you only use the touch function.

for certain things. Otherwise you're back to using the dial and it's kind of, there's a lot of clicking to get through things. I felt in stressful, like high paced scenarios, it's too slow to adjust and get set and get changed. The body's gorgeous, but that block of aluminum, I mean, they did such a great job machining it, but those edges are so hard and sharp that, and I've been hearing now feedback, like people are bumping this camera onto things and chipping chunks off those sharp edges. Like your gorgeous jewelry camera is not going to look so gorgeous after a while. You know, there's no EVF, which is a huge strike for me. I know not people care, but like.

When I played with the Panasonic S9, which is a compact little full-frame camera that also was limiting in a lot of ways, but had that same idea, like functionality goes more towards color modes and casual shooting and fun stuff. And then I played with the BF. I was like, give me that S9 back because that thing actually is like, that thing is a professional monster compared to this. So, I mean, I get it. As a beautiful camera that you wear on your shoulder that can take nice photos and that can kind of be navigated once you learn it, great. But I would never like trust or rely on it to be like an everyday camera. And I feel like Kazuto Yamaki, the CEO, just made it because it looks so beautiful. And he's like, this is what I want to carry around myself. Yeah. And truly, it was my...

Everyday carry. Right. Take photos of stuff that I see around the street. I brought it to a press event. I think it was a Google event. Took one photo and I was like, this is not it. So definitely, this was like, I'm going to carry it around, bring it places and take pictures of what I see. Professional setting, absolutely not.

Jordan, was the video just a non-starter for you on the BF? Or what are your BF feelings? Basically, they're pretty similar to Chris's. It's not a great video camera. The microphone thing came up, which is super weird on it. To have Bluetooth support, which I could never get to work anyways. There's no IBIS and the rolling shutter on it's really bad. So again, it's those wibbly wobbly situations on it. And I'm terrified of it. The whole time I'm pulling it, I'm like, what if I accidentally put it down the wrong way and cut my stomach open? There were people who put it in their jacket pockets and they shredded the inside lining of their jacket pockets. So one attribute it has is whenever...

I'm doing anything on my own time, I have a camera with me because we're always testing stuff and everyone ignores me. But this time, the one time I went out with the BF, I had like a half dozen people walk up and just be like, that is cool. What is that? Is that? Yeah. So that's the appeal of it. If you want to meet people and don't like joining clubs, like the BF is a small investment to make new friends. But as a photographic tool, I just found it. Yeah. Very difficult. Yeah. It is an unapologetic camera that owes everybody an apology.

For hurting them physically, it sounds like. For all sorts of stuff. Okay, so on the, like, also unapologetic, but with a different, like, ethos, I think. You know, we brought up the Fujifilm half. I'll be honest, I think it's adorable and fun, and I want to carry it around. Also not, I don't want it to be the camera I have every single day and look back at photos of my kid in 10 years and be like, yeah, sorry, son. These are all, like, crappy, like, film stock simulations. So, yeah, Chris, what's your take on the Fuji?

Yeah, like, look, I, you know, I know I kind of sound like no fun nickels all the time, but I've actually come around a lot on... film simulation modes of all sorts, right? Like, you know, Lumix Lab, Panasonic did that with Lumix Lab and Fujifilm's always done it. And now Sigma's doing like, all the companies are kind of building up on this, make your own preset kind of business, do your own customizations, make a vintage aesthetic, make a warm tone, you know, anything you want to do. And I think that's great. And actually on the XF, I really enjoyed all the silly stuff, like the light leaks and all these kind of features that it had. So you've got this tiny little camera with like a crop sensor down from Micro Four Thirds size-ish. You know, image quality is fine. It's fine, but it's basic. And it's this cute little, I mean, the design is beautiful.

It works in basically two modes. It's like two cameras in one. So first mode is you have a very basic point and shoot digital camera, but you can do film simulations. You can play around with some of this stuff. The second mode is where it really kind of tries to draw nostalgia and give you a film shooting experience. So it shoots in a vertical format. I think we should mention that, which is kind of cool right off the bat. Not that it needs to. That's just what it does, which is adorable. And the camera has a thumb winder on it. So you can go into a film mode. You choose a role of film, like basically a Fuji film simulation. You choose it and you're stuck with it for the next however many shots you're going to do. You can choose 24, 36, like 48, 72. And then at the end of doing that, it develops.

develops that roll of film it gives you a contact sheet with your negatives all laid out like that right as a positive image and it's cute and it's fun and i get it and you're using the thumb winder in between every shot it won't let you shoot unless you crank the thumb winder in this second mode oh my god but the thumb winder doesn't always register if you go too fast with that camera you're you have to like i started treating like an m3 double wind i'm like i'm double winding this thing every time just to make sure And like the novelty, I think it's a super fun thing to do. And then after like, I don't know what your threshold will be, but after like three or four fake rolls of film, I just be like, forget it. I'm going back to the regular camera because I want to be able to have the option to just change things afterwards and not have to, you know, go and go through 36 shots in black and white when I desperately see something I want to shoot color. So I found myself just saying, you know what? And the thumb winder was kind of silly and superfluous. So after a while, I was like, I just use this as a basic point and shoot camera. But then why did I pay for that whole film and thumb winder situation? I mean, I don't know. That's my feeling on it. I'm no fun. It's a gorgeous camera. It's like gorgeously designed. What is the price tag on it? We should say that out loud.

Like 800 bucks? 800 US, yeah. We were really surprised. The one thing I will say about it is Chris may not have enjoyed doing like that film mode thing, but as an outside spectator, because I didn't shoot photos on it. I had the terrible experience of shooting some video on it, which I can briefly address. But it looked like the whole time I'm like, that looks like fun. I want to do that. I want to go take that. So there might be some appeal there. I want to actually try it out, shoot some photos, see if I do enjoy that.

Chris mentioned, you know, the image quality is decent. It's smartphone decent. You know, it's like a type one sensor with a slow lens. So your smartphone will do the same quality. But the video was hilarious because they have light leak effects, which, you know, in photo, just sit in one static place. But in video, if you've got a leak, it'll move based on where the light is coming from. But this doesn't do this. So it looks like you just put like a piece of glass in front of the lens and painted like an orange smear on it. And then it's just stuck in front as you wave the camera around. It looks hilarious. It's like early David Lynch when he was figuring out digital cameras. But it's weird as hell. Ruins the illusion a little bit. Yeah. So, Viren, you wrote the review for us.

which seemed very positive. Is this another Sigma BF situation for you where you're like, yes, it's limited, but I love what it is. I think he's a masochist. I think he's just a masochist. I'm just like an optimist. No, it was mostly...

positive, but so hard to justify, right? And we already talked about the price. The price is just ridiculous. If you look at the comments on any of the videos or articles, everyone is like, this is insane. What I did enjoy about it was actually using it until you hit the, what was also mentioned, it feels slow. You know, when you take a photo and you crank it and it doesn't register. You found that too? Yeah. Oh yeah. It was very slow to like write onto the card and I had a fast card in it. The processor in it is actually like really good. It shouldn't be the case that it's so slow. Those are the things that like bother me. What I did like about it is that it felt like.

Some thought went into designing the hardware and software in tandem for the experience of using it. It didn't feel like, you know, hey, here's a trend. We're going to make something really quickly. Like, you know, at the express events, they give you the R&D story behind it. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, I can kind of buy it. I don't think it's.

Quite just the cash grab, although the price is ridiculous. So using it was fun. I did not try the video with light leaks. Oh, you got to. And you got some time this weekend. Enjoy. I'm good. No, no, no. This was, and just for reference, like it wasn't a review. It was like a hands-on. I had like a couple of hours with it. So it was just like a pretty brief experience with it. And yeah, I think software hardware design was interesting, fun. It was fun to use, but it is like, I would never buy it because of the price, even if I do buy it.

I am a little bit sucker for like high quality, beautiful, high megapixel everything. Sure. I don't think I would actually take it out as much. You know, it would probably be the camera that I leave behind. I use a lot more of like, you know, the Osmo pockets and one of these cameras and I just want to cover every basis. The base that I don't want to cover is fun.

One inch sensor camera that's just an extra. You mentioned the Osmo and I have questions. Actually, I noticed this like, this was starting to ramp up when I was leaving DP Review, but like every camera company launching their like vlogger camera. And I got kind of a glimpse of this. I reported a little bit ago on the Canon PowerShot GX7 3. Oh, lucky. Have these like vlogging focused cameras panned out for the manufacturers or did like the Osmo just win? The Osmo killed them all. That's funny.

Yeah, the Osmo killed them all. I was thinking about this, though, just today. Like, all these companies that we were going through started making vlogging cameras, right? Panasonic did, Nikon did, Sony, of course, really came out of the gate first, Canon then started to. And it was like, no camera viewer that I really knew have super enjoyed these cameras, right? We're all complaining about the same things. It's like, oh, they're expensive, and they're kind of silly, and I don't know who wants these. And I'm convinced it's because there's so many people that do so many other interests that we're just not interested in that are looking for a very basic kit to get started. I guess if I was somebody starting out and I didn't know what I was doing, I just wanted to get something at Best Buy, put it in front of me, and make it work, well, then that might do it, right? So...

I think that's why they were so popular. But I think now as more people catch on to the Osmo, the beauty of the gimbal, the fact that, again, it's very simple, the fact that you can add microphones to it seamlessly, that makes it even more convenient. And I think as more and more people figure out what the pocket cameras do for them, we're going to see even less and less vlog cameras. Have those been hard to get, like the drones? It's not hard to get, except the price has gone up by 40%. I think it's about $900 to get the whole thing. It started with $500.

Yeah. I mean, even at $900, it's still probably worth it. But yeah, like when they were $500, what a steal. Yeah. What a great little camera. And yeah, image quality, as we've talked about, is plateaued. Nobody cares anymore. We want it to work and we want it to be easy. And we want to know that when we get home, everything's okay and it's all set for us. Like, yeah, it's great. Yeah. Well, on the subject of making YouTube videos, I have questions for the two of you, Chris and Jordan. You guys have been at this for so long and...

I'm curious on your perspective on how it's changed. You know, like there's just a lot in that question. There's like the camera market has changed. The technology has changed. Like making the videos has changed. But I don't know. How do you look at the change over the past like decade that you've been doing this? The style that younger creators make now is very different. We still stick to our same style. We shoot a lot on location. And as you said, Jordan, with like nicer cameras, you know, Jordan's looking for more cinematic results and control over depth of field. And so, whereas now I think a lot of young creators are looking more at presets and more extreme color grades and faster cuts and stuff. What do you think, Jordan?

And I think the big difference is when we started, it just had to be passable and you could build a massive audience. Like basically our early stuff is unwatchably bad. No, it's not. But fairly quickly we got to a level where, yeah, it was... better than you know something that someone with no background in video production could put together where now you know the bar is so much higher if you're starting but i think it almost puts us in an interesting place because it's not so much about like how is your production value but it's like what are you producing and if that's compelling like i think if you're like for us specifically hey if you want to review camera gear you know you better back it up with some interesting photos or interesting shoots or an interesting experience or something like that like pure brute technical know-how is not going to get you as far as it used to back in the day so um you know we learn very quickly just start injecting more of our personalities into the video and that's i think why we're still doing this all that time later yeah the tools have definitely like Editing is faster now. On location, they've given us a lot of stuff. You know, more dynamic range in a camera means I can shoot in more locations without looking for a place with easier light to work with. So all of that is just making us more productive. And that's what I love to see is just like, hey, we can actually do more now. Yeah. Does that resonate, V? Yeah, but I actually wanted to ask a question. I feel like in the last couple of years, especially, you know, with the rise of short-form video content, especially when it comes to camera, every release of a camera, everyone has a video about it. Everyone has something ready to go on a more go. It's more saturated than ever, honestly. And, you know, we've seen reports of just like influencer marketing budgets are like...

you know everything right is there anything else that you kind of do or think differently to stand out to remain yourself We've always tried to do a lot of the videos that we, reviews that we do with the cameras that we have, right? And we try to do them on location. So we're not really in the office talking, we're out shooting on location because we want to give the viewers the idea like, look, this is how we're using the camera. This is how you might use the camera. Weather ceiling might be a factor, you know, where you're actually going to be out there and, you know, things like that. Autofocus, all these kinds of things. And you see though, I think a lot of creators are making really good stuff, but they're showing a lot more of the end result of that video camera, for example, or photographic camera, you know, after editing, after compiling it together. And they're often shooting themselves, speaking about it with different camera gear because it's more convenient and it's quicker and it's easier if you're just one person. Whereas-

we have the benefit of the two of us. So, but yeah, it's just a different dynamic, hence Jordan's shirt. And we've always tried to do that, like be on location using the cameras as real world as we can, not only for the photography, but also for the video. Yeah. That one right there. Yeah. Film on location, you cowards. I love it. Yeah, that's where that comes from. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you all three of you for joining me. And I'm sure we're all going to be together IRL, you know, soon enough. Yes, in the fall. One way or another. So thank you. That season's coming up. Yeah. Thanks, guys. We've got to take another break. And after that, we're doing a mega hotline. Stay tuned.

Support for the show comes from Upwork. Business owners know that you kind of need to become a jack of all trades to grow. But as you do, situations arise where you end up wishing you could simply hire a jack or a jill of a very particular trade. In those cases, you'll be glad to have Upwork. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise. With their help, you can fill critical skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale support up or down without committing to a full-time headcount. There's also Business Plus, which lets you access the top 1% of talent on Upwork. And when it comes to the operational stuff, such as contracts and payments, Upwork takes care of it all.

With over 170,000 freelancers holding five-star ratings, you can hire with confidence knowing you're getting someone with a verified track record of applied expertise. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Upwork.com.

Support for the show comes from IDERA by Palo Alto Networks. Every new cloud workload or AI agent your team sends out is another identity that gets permanent access to your systems. And in 2026, those non-human identities with access outnumber actual human identities 109 to 1. You need a tool built to manage them all. Human, machine, and AI. That's exactly what IDERA by Palo Alto Networks was designed to do. It's one identity platform for all, and it outshines legacy tools that were only built to manage human employees. How does it work?

Well, IDERA replaces permanent permissions with dynamic access, so you can lock down every identity without slowing down your own business. With IDERA, you get unified control by replacing siloed IAM or identity and access management, PAM, modern privilege access management, and governance tools, all with a single control plane. And it does that across human, machine, and AI identities. Secure every identity at your organization with IDERA by Palo Alto Networks. Learn more at paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A. Again, that's paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A.

Support for the show comes from Framer. The future of website building is seamlessly blending all the tools we have available. And you could use a platform that has it all and stays useful even after you launch. That's what Framer is. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. On Framer, agents bring speed and scale while people bring taste, judgment, and control. And that all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published.

Everyone's ideas land on the canvas, stay editable, and can be published when the team is ready. Thousands of businesses, from early-stage startups to Fortune 500s, are choosing to build their websites in Framer, where changes take minutes instead of days. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com slash verge for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com slash verge. Rules and restrictions may apply.

Welcome back. I am joined by my colleague, Dominic Preston. Hey, Dom. Hey, Alison. Good to see you again. Good to see you. He's our news editor based in the UK and also a big phone nerd. Yeah, guilty as charged. Yes, I know this. So which figures into our exercise today. I put a call out many months ago at this point for our listeners to write in or call in and let us know the phone buying conundrum they're having. If they're considering a new phone and they're not sure which one to get, if they just need some like philosophical advice, if they own an iPhone mini, which...

You guys showed up. Anyway, we'll just jump right into it. Are you feeling ready? Ready as I'll ever be. I've done a little work on my European phone market, so I can answer some of that side of things, hopefully. Yes, please, because the Xiaomi's of the world are a mystery to me. So, great. Okay, so our first question came from Brendan, and he called in, so we can go ahead and listen to it.

Hi, this is Brendan from Rochester, New York. I have a Pixel 6 that is starting to get a little slow and nearing its end of guaranteed security updates next year. And so I was looking to buy a new phone. I want something that's going to last for a while and have OS updates and security updates. But I also want something that's kind of on the smaller side. The Pixel 6 is kind of heavy and big. So I was tempted by phones like the Asus Zenfone 9. I want something that's kind of around that size, which I know it's really hard to find. So if you had any suggestions, that would be great. Thanks.

I am so sorry, Brendan, but we have nothing but bad news for you. My heart broke a little bit, especially that mention of the Zenfone 9. I know. I missed that one. Yeah, I know. So the quick answer, I think, is you're probably going to want a Samsung Galaxy S25. That is the last small-ish phone that is widely available in the U.S. The ASUS Zenfone kind of went away. They only make a big version now, and I don't think they even sell it in the U.S. Are there options in the U.K. that we just don't get here?

But weirdly, no, this is one area where still even the rest of Europe, and even if you look at China, there's not really a big difference other than going into really tiny oddball things like the Unihertz Jelly Star, which is this minuscule phone with a minuscule screen. Kind of that Zenfone 9-esque form factor has pretty much gone. The S25 is probably the best bet. The kind of the big one you might get in the rest of the world is the Xiaomi 15. But that's basically the same size as like a Pixel 9, Pixel 10. It's still a little bit bigger than an S25. So if the main priority is size, the S25 is going to be the best. Yeah.

So we've failed, Brendan. I'm sorry. But yeah, S25 is probably going to be it. And our hearts are with you. Yeah, we have this perverse thing now where even if you look at the Chinese brands and what they're putting out, even within China, not the stuff that comes to Europe, we're seeing phones that are branded like mini or compact and they're still 6.4 inch displays. And they're bigger than an S25, way bigger than an iPhone mini ever was. It's kind of strange. Yeah, the phone beginning has happened and it's not going to let up, I think. So the next question we have, and we got this kind of a lot, is from Nate.

Hey there, this is Nate. I've been an Apple iPhone user and Mac user forever. I'm definitely in the walled garden of Apple. I have the AirPod Pro, Apple Watch, and I'm just getting a little bored. And I'm curious what the other side is like. And I don't really know, you know, with the Android phones and even the watches and the headphones, is there that much of a difference? It would be nice if they were similar. But yeah, that's my question. Thanks.

So this was kind of a theme, people being bored with their phones. And I don't know if I'm just being a bummer, but I kind of think that's because phones are boring now. What's your read on this, Dom? I think if boredom is the motivator, there are basically only two ways you can go, which is buy a foldable, which may be a little bit more interesting if you're not already on one, or buy something from nothing, which is still ultimately just a phone, but at least it's going to look kind of fun before you put your case on it. Yeah, something from nothing took me a second, but yes, the phone brand nothing. I'm kind of thinking of your traditional like...

Pixels and galaxies and there are things here and there that are a little different. There's definitely more AI features throughout the OS if that's something that interests you. I don't think a lot of people are motivated by AI at this point. But yeah, I think a foldable is that's really the best you can do as far as like it's going to feel different and you're going to use it differently. That changes your experience with the phone, whichever foldable form factor you go for, whether you're talking like a flip phone, which kind of can reduce your screen time. You can leave the phone closed and engage with it a bit less or obviously the book style gets you more of that, you know.

tablet that fits in your pocket kind of thing. Either way, they're a different way of having a phone. I mean, the other thing I'd say to that question with kind of the broader what is there on the Android side of that question from Nate, one big difference, this is definitely a rest of the world thing, I'm afraid, not a US thing, but there is this whole kind of space where cameras in the flagship Android devices from the big Chinese OEMs like Xiaomi and Honor and Oppo and Vivo. Those cameras are really, really wild and they are nothing like you're going to find on any iPhone right now. But in terms of the design, these are like very big, almost DSLR-esque camera rings that dominate devices and make them very top heavy. But, you know, amazing telephoto lenses, really big sensors, really great depth of field from shots and kind of a lot more processing options as well sometimes. That's one thing I think that the Android side has that just isn't an option on the iPhone. The frustrating bit of that is then there's no option for that in the US because I think what Samsung and Google are doing is much more in line with what Apple are doing, which is kind of more modest camera bumps and very impressive cameras, but not really completely pushing the butt out there. Yeah, I feel like there's...

other companies in the world that have been like, what if hardware and Samsung and Pixel phones are kind of like, we've locked in on the hardware and we're just optimizing the shit out of everything with software. So that's kind of where we are. I will say some of those, is it a phone? Is it a camera? Phones are so much fun to use. And I'm extremely jealous that you get to do that more than I do. Well, they're great fun. But I mean, I think there's definitely like there's a big aesthetic tradeoff as well, which I think is part of the reason the big US players haven't opted for it because you're already basically saying I'm willing for my phone to look quite a lot uglier.

in the name of having a way better camera experience. And I don't know that that's the mainstream US or European phone dial, right? Most people are not willing to make that swap. They want a really good camera, but they still want their phone to look like a normal, attractive phone. Yeah, you got to choose. You got to make your choices. And the US manufacturers have made that choice for us. So our next question is kind of relates because Brian wants to know about foldables. So we can listen to that one.

Hi, Allison. My name is Ryan. My thing that I run into a lot with phones, at least for last year or so, and what will be the next year, is battery life. And I am really contemplating some of the folding phones that are out there on the market right now. Obviously, what will be the Pixel Pro 10 Fold is really appealing, but I don't know, just based on what I've seen, if battery life on any foldable right now is that great. So, I guess, like, battery life inside of foldables, or do I just stick to my good old candy bar options?

and get the biggest and baddest battery life. So that's kind of what I'm running into right now. Maybe others are too. Thank you so much, and hopefully talk to you soon. Bye.

So I'm curious your thoughts on this, but I think my general take is the foldable, like the bigger book style foldables have just kind of like the battery life was not great. And they've kind of gotten to a place where you have parity with a decent slab style phone, but not like you should not expect it to exceed like your average slab phone for battery life. What do you think, Dom? Yeah, I broadly agree with that. I think one thing I'd say for the big foldables is so much of it's going to come down to how you expect to use it, which is what I mean by that is how much are you going to open up? I'm a very boring.

foldable user when I'm reviewing them because I actually don't find that many uses for the big screen personally. So I use it 90% of the time as a regular phone closed. And the battery life then is pretty comparable. You're not really getting a difference. Obviously people listening will be, well, why on earth would I buy one of these if I'm not going to open it up all the time? So that's a very fair point. The battery life will go down when you open it up. But you should think about like, do you want it to be something that you can open up for half an hour on your commute in the morning and occasionally when you're sitting on the couch and just want to read? Or is there something where you think all the time you're using this, you're going to open it up and use the big screen? Because the more you use the big screen, the worse the battery is going to be. So there's a bit of a trade-off there.

I have a similar experience where I'm just, I don't know if it's because I just use a slab style phone all the time, but I sort of have to remind myself like, oh no, this phone opens. I need to open it and like try it that way. And I'll inevitably like download Diablo Immortal or something to it to like really play and test it out. And I'm like, A, I think I would do this more because it's so much nicer on a big screen. And B, wow, does that kill the battery life like so fast. So yeah, it is so variable. And I wouldn't discount like your phone habits maybe changing once you have the option of a bigger.

tablet-like experience. But I don't know. I did read a lot of comments recently on something I wrote about foldables where foldable owners were saying that they rarely open their folding phone. And I was like, huh. Oh, interesting. I've always thought that was a me problem. So it's interesting that people who actually own them kind of feel the same way sometimes. Yeah. I guess there's two other things I'd say to Brian on that question. First, I think you are right that a flip phone is probably not for you from the description of what you want. And especially if after your life is the concern, I think the flip phones still struggle there. Like you said, Alison, you can kind of, the bookstore will give you parity with a decent slab.

on battery life, the flips are definitely still behind. And they're good enough right now to run for a day. But, you know, if you're going to use it for four years, I wouldn't trust it would be good enough to last a day in four years' time on any of the flips, really. And the other thing I'll say is a little the rest of the world perspective, because this is a different story outside of the US, though it's only beginning to change. This year, we've seen a lot of big foldables coming out with silicon carbon batteries, which are meaning they're getting bigger capacities. So I reviewed the Oppo Find N5, which was at the time the thinnest around, and that had a, I think, a 5,600 milliamp hour battery. Vivo just put out a foldable in.

I think it's just in China and India, the X Fold 5. That's got a 6,000 milliamp hour battery, though I haven't tried that one. Honor have announced the Magic V5 in China, but they've also announced it's getting a European release, at least very soon. That one is, I think, 5,800 milliamp hours. If all those numbers sound like nonsense to you, all three of those battery capacities are bigger than an S25 Ultra by some way. So these are all big foldables that could beat most smartphones. So this is happening. It's changing. Like I said, those aren't even all out in Europe. I think the Honor will be out in Europe, but the other two aren't. But if you're in Europe, if you're in India, if you're elsewhere, in Asia or somewhere.

look at those brands because you might actually find that there are some recent models from this year that really are up there with not just an average smartphone for battery life, but up there with the best smartphones for battery life. Yeah. And there's been a real hesitation from at least Google and Samsung from what I can tell about adopting the silicon carbon batteries. So I wouldn't expect that to change anytime like super soon, but you never know. I don't know. Maybe we can have nice things too.

Yeah, I think this is a change that's going to roll out faster and faster elsewhere, but I don't expect either Samsung or Google to be jumping on this just yet, but we'll see. It'd be nice if they did, because it really is going to be, you know, both in foldables and in regular phones, it's going to be a big driver of bigger batteries and smaller phones. Yeah, maybe we can have it all. Smaller phones. Maybe we can have small phones again, because we can have big batteries in our small phones. My God, please. Okay, now I am rooting for Silicon Carbon, and I want it now. Next up, we have just a very charming question from Smiley.

Hey, my name is Smiley Rojas Nunez, aka Smiley No Really, singer-songwriter. I'm calling in because I have a Pixel 4a 5G that I refuse to upgrade from. Long story short, the Pixel 4a 5G has a headphone jack, and I like to go and perform music in little clubs and open mics, and it's so useful to have that headphone jack. Also, it's one of the last Pixels with the unlimited photo storage. I don't feel like paying for a planned first photo storage, so that's another reason why I haven't upgraded. But now it does feel like it's getting in my way when it comes to using Instagram, which unfortunately is a tool that I need to use to promote myself.

and my artistry. So I'm thinking of upgrading. I know that the OnePlus 13 is the best Android phone available right now, but sadly it's huge. So I'm like, what to do, what to do? I don't know that I need this year's latest model, but yeah, appreciate you listening to this message and help a brother out. Peace, peace.

I'm just very charmed by Smiley. And I love that he's held on to the Pixel 4a 5G. Like, way to go. Way to milk Google for the unlimited photo storage and hold on to that headphone jack. But I think this is another, like, bad news kind of situation. I'm, like, racking my brain for a, like, flagship-ish phone that has a headphone jack. And I'm trying to figure out if Motorola sells one. Yeah, I feel like some of the cheaper models might still have headphone jacks. I don't think anything higher end.

does even you know in europe they have the whole edge series which is kind of mid-range bordering on flagship and some of those come out in the states under different names but none of those have headphone jacks i think i think you need to be looking at like the moto g kind of budget, a couple hundred bucks models. And I feel like some of those still have a headphone jack kicking around. But yeah, that's right. I don't know how much of a performance bump that will feel like even coming from, I guess, the 4A is old. So they will feel better than a 4A, but not like a giant jump forward. Yeah, that's OK. The Moto G Stylus, I believe, has a headphone jack and like a very nice kind of vegan leather back panel. The thing that I am a little hesitant about is that it is just loaded with bloatware, a lot of which you can.

opt out of and uninstall. So if you're willing to do that, it's a nice little phone. I also worry a little bit about longevity. If you would, I feel like Smiley kind of wants to hold onto a phone for a while, given that he's still rocking the 4i5G. And Motorola, especially for the budget, you get maybe two or three years of upgrades and then you're done. So you're shopping for a new phone again. But that might be the only option with a headphone jack. Yeah, my other hesitation on the Motorola would be the camera because Smiley mentioned, you know, being interested by the Oppo, which the Find X8S, I think is the phone that the Mini ended up.

being, you know, call that out for being smallish with a camera, but the Moto is not going to have a great camera. If anything, that might be one bit where it really does feel like a downgrade from a 4A because I think any pixel camera almost is going to be sort of what you find on a cheap Motorola. Motorola's cameras are good on some of the higher end models, but not on, I doubt the G Stylus is going to be a real winner for that side. Yeah, yeah, that's a good call out. There sort of is one phone that kind of exists that does this almost, but I don't think, I don't think somebody can buy it in the US and I don't think he should, which is the Sony Xperia 1 Mark 7, which is kind of...

compact ish it's got a headphone jack it's got pretty good cameras not the best but they're not bad i don't know how great they are for longevity but it's not out in the us that particular model has had some issues they've had to do a recall for a lot of units across europe certainly wouldn't trust Sony on the longevity in terms of their commitment to the smartphone market. They actually just said in their recent quarterly earnings that the Xperia phone business is very important to them, but I don't know how much I believe that. But putting out one or two phones a year and barely releasing them at all, even if you could buy it, I think it'd be about one and a half grand is the price. So it's crazy expensive for what it is. So that is the phone, but also don't buy that phone. It exists, but also, yeah, don't. Yeah, a couple of years back, I think I was still reviewing Xperia phones. And yeah, it was that kind of like, this is very pricey and I'm only hearing like,

two years of software support promise. So just like the math just doesn't work for me there, I think, among other reasons. But yeah, I don't know. Let us know, Smiley. I hope you find something or maybe I'm just going to have to join the rest of us in the world who lost the headphone jack and we mourn it every day. So I've got another one here. This is from TJ Huddleston. He also messaged me on threads or Blue Sky, one of those. And I kind of hinted at what I think he should get. But here's TJ explaining it.

Hey, my name is TJ Huddleston. I am considering switching from iOS to Android, and I'm not really sure if that is the right move for me. I used Android from its inception up until the iPhone 12, and one of the reasons I switched to the iPhone 12 is I just wanted my phone to work. I used my phone for work more often, and I got tired of all the slowness and uncertainty when it came to Android, but now I'm just getting bored. But here's my issue, is that I work in a construction-related field, and so I always need access to my phone. My phone is a tool, and so I need really good battery life, but also I need a good warranty service. One of the things I really like about having an iPhone or Apple device in general is that I can go to an Apple store.

And I can have my phone fixed most of the time the same day. And so I really want that capacity whenever I switch to an Android phone. Part of me just wants to get a Samsung, maybe the S25 Ultra, because it has that nice stylus and I can annotate on pictures and stuff like that. So my question for Allison is if you were focused on repairability or maybe service when it came to maintenance and repairs, who would you choose? Thanks. Love the show.

I love that TJ and I agree because he names the phone I think he should get, which is the S25 Ultra. And there's a few reasons for that, some of which he mentions, but I'm curious if that was your instinct too, Dom. Yeah, I mean, definitely if we're talking about the US and even really outside the US, it's got to be Samsung. If your aim is serviceability and you want to be able to get quick, easy, reliable repairs for a device and you don't want it to be an Apple. then yeah, Samsung is absolutely going to be the next best thing and Google the best. It is one of those cases where the big brands that play in the US are absolutely the best options. And then, you know, the S25 Ultra, it sounds like, you know, TJ likes the sound of the stylus and the big display. He talked about wanting a foldable for the big screen, so going for the Ultra makes sense.

Yeah. And I would steer him away from a foldable in this case. Yes. Just for the repairability things he mentions. And I can see how the big inner screen would really come in handy. But I guess I think that's a situation where you also have a tablet if you need that kind of thing. But the S25 Ultra being a gigantic phone is the closest you're going to get on a slab style phone. Something else going for the Ultra is that, and it doesn't get talked about enough, I think, is the anti-glare coating on the screen, which is really good. And especially if he's working outside with it a lot and if the sun's shining.

We're sort of used to like casting a shadow over your phone and like hunting over it. And then you can see it outside. You have to see it to believe it. But the Ultra really is like better to use outside, I think. Yeah, that's a great shot. Yeah, we've seen all the brands over the last few years sort of competing on claims about how bright the displays get without focus on use outdoors. And it almost doesn't matter because the Ultra is there with the anti-glare coating that does a much better job than just pumping up the brightness in the screen. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of wild. So I think it's a good choice for that. And like you mentioned, the...

just the availability of places you can walk into you know samsung has an agreement i think with it's called like you break i fix it um something along those lines but i see enough of those around that i sort of followed away in the back of my head like yeah i could bring a samsung phone there if i needed to i say this with a little hesitation because i'm not 100 on the u.s market side of this but i'm pretty sure samsung has some sort of subscription care service a little like apple care plus you know yeah one of those sign up and pay them pay them a certain amount per month and it gets you a guarantee of a certain number of repairs or easier access to repairs or something like that so that would be something to look at as well if you're If you know that that worry that you're regularly breaking your phone, if you have that concern. The wild card, I'd say, again, with my little non-US hat on is a Fairphone, which is a very different take on repairability and serviceability because you fix it yourself. But they are very easy to fix for the most part. I was just reviewing the...

Fairphone 6, the latest model. And I am a complete idiot with this kind of stuff, but I should take the phone completely apart to its parts and put it all the way back together. And it still worked at the other end of it all. And they sell their own, you know, replacement displays, USB ports, speakers, individual camera modules, things like that. You can get the Fairphones in the US, but they're only sold through this company called Moreno that makes this privacy de-Googled OS. It makes them quite expensive. And the OS is a little specific and limiting. I don't totally dislike it, but you've got to want the de-Googled side of it. And if that doesn't appeal, I think you'll find it quite frustrating, especially if TJ's...

hesitation was that he'd been in the ropey early days of Android and was hoping it was a lot better and more polished. EOS is good, but I don't think polished is like what it feels a bit like going back to Android five years ago. But if you are outside the US or in the US and willing to import, you can get a fair phone with their own software, which is kind of closer to stock modern Google and works pretty well. And, you know, they give you user software updates. You can fix the phone easily yourself, get spare parts. So that's a very different take on wanting a phone that's serviceable, repairable, but that's an option elsewhere as well. Yeah.

The DIY option. I took a an HMD Skyline apart and not not like really apart. It's one of those like ultra repairable phones and replace the battery myself. And I felt like I was unstoppable. I was like, I want to take every phone apart. I know it was so much fun disassembling the spare phone surrounded by tiny screws and I only got two bits wrong when I put it back together. It still worked once I figured that out. So anyone can do it if I can. TJ, let me know what you bought, what you plan on buying and good luck to you. So last kind of call in here. We have Sean with I think.

a conundrum that I hear a lot from people. So we'll listen to Sean. Hey, Allison. I am kind of torn. I have been in the Android ecosystem for a very long time. Then I switched to iPhones because my company switched to iPhones. Then I ended up getting my own personal iPhone. So now I have two phones and I'm kind of debating, do I want to go back to Android? You know, my whole family is now on iPhones. And so it's like, that's really the struggle, right? Is they all have iPhones. So now we've got iMessaging. Now we've got shared calendars. Now we've got all of these different pieces that kind of integrate to each other.

So when I used to have an Android, it was a huge problem because we couldn't have a shared family calendar. We had to try to make it work between Google Calendar and Apple Calendar, and it's just never great. So could I just stick with Apple, and it just keeps the ecosystem harmonized together where the whole family's on the same thing? Or if I do switch, what are some of the apps that maybe I could use or should use to try to keep that same compatibility going across all of the family's devices? Thanks a lot. Have a good day.

A family divided. This is always, when I see a couple and one of them has an Android and one of them has an iPhone, I am always asking them this question. I'm like, how's that going for you? I feel like my big answer is like, how much do you want to keep the peace? And also, generally, it has gotten better being a mixed OS family these days than maybe it was, you know, five years ago. But do you have a go-to answer on this, Dom, when people are grappling with this? I have no useful practical advice because when I first started dating my current partner five years ago, she was using an iPhone and I basically...

kind of forced her to switch to an Android because she kept getting jealous of the cameras on my phones and eventually switched. And it was like, oh, that's better. Now we just think up and everything's easier. So I haven't had to live that life of moving between them, at least not in the last few years. I agree it's a lot better than it used to be. If Sean's experience is from a few years ago and kind of comparing five to 10 years ago, that process to now, it will definitely be better. 80 to 90% of the time, everything will just work and it'll be fine. And it won't matter that you're on an Android phone and your partner or your kids are on iPhones. And there'll be that one time where some calendar bit goes a bit screwy or...

you know, the messaging app gets annoying or something like that. And then you'll all be really irritated by it. And how invested are you in avoiding those sort of sporadic irritations is the question. Yeah. And it will be your fault. It doesn't matter if the Apple products are not getting it right. It doesn't matter. It's your fault. I have lived this.

in my own household. Yeah, and I will say, especially in the US, we don't tend to use the third-party messaging apps like you all do. So having RCS support on iOS now has been huge. When I'm on an Android phone now and I'm on a flight, I can still message my husband on his iPhone because we're just doing RCS over Wi-Fi and all that. So that has been a really big help, I think, to the people in the mixed ecosystem situation. Something I will add is that the very recent Pixel 10 phones come with Qi2, which is a wireless charging standard, but also has

the magnets built in and it's basically MagSafe. So if your family's using MagSafe accessories and you have things around the house that, you know, you would not normally be able to plug into like a magnetic charger, you can look at the Pixel 10 and you'd be able to just like slide right into that ecosystem there. But yeah, I think that your point of like something is going to go a little sideways. You can, I certainly have been fine with calendars, you know, switching between iPhone and Android. I think I've gotten It takes a little bit of futzing around, but you can get, you know, all the Google calendars you're supposed to see on iPhone and vice versa. Something goes weird sometimes. And I don't know, you just got to own it. If you're cool with that, then the world is your oyster on Android. So we have a bunch more questions. We'll get into some emails, but we're going to take a really quick break.

Support for the show comes from IDERA by Palo Alto Networks. Every new cloud workload or AI agent your team sends out is another identity that gets permanent access to your systems. And in 2026, those non-human identities with access outnumber actual human identities 109 to 1. You need a tool built to manage them all. Human, machine, and AI. That's exactly what IDERA by Palo Alto Networks was designed to do. It's one identity platform for all, and it outshines legacy tools that were only built to manage human employees. How does it work?

Well, IDERA replaces permanent permissions with dynamic access, so you can lock down every identity without slowing down your own business. With IDERA, you get unified control by replacing siloed IAM or identity and access management, PAM, modern privilege access management, and governance tools, all with a single control plane. And it does that across human, machine, and AI identities. Secure every identity at your organization with IDERA by Palo Alto Networks. Learn more at paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A. Again, that's paloaltonetworks.com slash I-D-I-R-A.

Listen to Machine Gods from NPR on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com slash vox. That's odoo.com slash vox.

Welcome back. We are going to get back into some more listener questions and we have some emails to read. My favorite thing, reading emails. But these are delightful. So this one is from Izzy and I'm going to kind of paraphrase it the best I can. She says, Hi, I'm Izzy. I have a Samsung S24 Plus and I own it outright.

Congratulations, Dizzy. That is a big deal, actually. So she's rarely on social media, but does a lot of texting for a main job. The main use case she's interested in, she calls herself a reader with a capital R. I love this. Reads books and comics and has like 10 different apps for different kinds of content to read. Reads two to three books a week and also says she doesn't care about AI until it stops hallucinating or has a killer app or something. Amen to that. So the conundrum is...

Because she owns her phone, she's under no pressure to move, but she wants to make the reading experience better. Does she look at a books device or a kind of premium reader? She says, well, an e-reader is interesting. She's more of a one device type of girl. So, yeah, this one is interesting because I know more people who definitely have a dedicated device for reading on the go, like a Kindle or like our favorite, our books, Palmas.

oddball one I'll throw out there and I don't actually think you should buy it. I'm testing this TCL 60XE that has an e-ink-ish mode where it just brings the screen to monochrome. You can do it in two ways where it really like is sort of a focus mode thing if you want to like pay attention to notifications less or you can just kind of mimic an e-ink screen and just have access to like all the normal stuff on your phone. I've been carrying it around as a kind of second device in my, I'm not doing anymore, but when I was trying to use a watch. like an LTE watch as my phone. I had this on me, so I would have a screen to read something. And it was all right. It was like surprisingly kind of pleasant for that. Not a great phone overall. So I don't think that's the answer. Yeah. Do you have any ideas here, Dom? I think Izzy should maybe look more closely at the book style foldable. She seems to suggest this as an option and then hesitate about the aspect ratio and the price, which is understandable.

I mean, I would say, I said earlier, when I have a book still foldable, I don't actually open up that much, except for reading. Reading is what I find them really great for. The aspect ratio when they're open is kind of squarish, usually or like a little bit portrait. That makes them odd for watching video or playing games. And that vision of open your phone up to watch a movie doesn't really work because you don't get a lot more space. But open your phone up to read a book or even just, you know, read an article on a website or something. I always do that. That's when I want to open them because it just feels like suddenly the screen is so much more spacious, so much more comfortable to read on. And I much prefer that.

So I do think if reading is the use case that maybe it sounds like an unnecessary expense to get this sort of one and a half thousand dollar phone just to read ebooks on. But it is better. And I do think that would be a nice experience. I really think it will feel like worlds better than reading on a smartphone and definitely better than reading on a flip phone, which is sort of the other option suggested there, which I don't think getting a flip phone solves any of the problems here other than that flip phones are fun. And I love flip phones, so I do often recommend them. But that doesn't necessarily seem like the right thing here.

So I would look at a bookstore one. They are expensive, but you can look at a last gen model or something. We've just had the Pixel 10 Pro Fold. You can look at the 9 Pro Fold and see if that means you can get it at a better price and that kind of thing. I probably wouldn't look at the last gen Samsung right now just because they made such a big jump with the Z Fold 7. And so the Z Fold 6 is maybe a bigger compromise compared to the Pixels, where I think the 9 is really giving you a lot of what you get with the 10. I like the look of the 10, but I don't think you're losing too much with the 9 unless you really, really want the G2 charging. I read this question and I think, yeah, buy a big foldable. It sounds like that's going to solve your problem.

Yeah, the more I hear you argue for it, I'm like, yeah, that does make sense. And given that Izzy owns her S24 Plus, when those trade-in deals come around, Samsung will give you a lot of money off a foldable for your S24 Plus. Very good point, yeah. Yeah, keep an eye on those. That will really take the sting out of the price because they are super expensive. But yeah, I think it would be a lot of fun for that use case. And when you're done reading, you can just close it and that feels great. So, all right, Izzy, I'm sorry, you are resigned to spending $1,500, but that's what we decided.

here in phone court, legally binding. All right. So next up, we have a question from Sam and also going to kind of paraphrase this. So Sam had an iPhone 13 Pro, got sick of it, and then downgraded to the iPhone SE 2 to hang on to that home button. But is struggling with the common complaints of spending too much time on social media and wanting access to like texting, email, calling, podcasts, all that stuff, but has a hard time kind of moderating the...

social media and screen time. So Sam is looking into dumb phones and thought about getting a flip phone or the light phone, but hesitated because they might not have enough of the functionality. I spent some time with the Unihertz Jelly Star, which we've kind of touched on Unihertz a couple of times, but Android phones that really lean into the hardware of like minimalism. And it sounds like. It was too small, and her eyes started hurting from reading the small text on the small screen. She says, I mostly use text and email on it, so it wasn't putting too much of a strain on my eyes, but my one vice was reading the news on the tiny screen, and I think that's what strained my eyes the most. I am...

Sorry to hear that. So it's switched back to the SE2, but it's missing a tiny phone. So, oh my gosh, Sam, you've been on a journey, a journey that brought you to Unihertz and back. I'm so sad that we finally have someone who like did go out and get the small phone, the smallest small phone, the one everyone says they want, and it made her eyes hurt. And now she's having to find a bigger phone. Yeah, I know. No. Yeah, that's a real bummer. Yeah, I own an iPhone 13 mini. I love it. I'm not parting with it until it's a security risk. I don't think I'd recommend someone go buy one secondhand at this point. Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit more specifically about that. But there is the, you know, the battery.

life is not going to be super great at this point. So the one suggestion I'll throw in here is that maybe the answer is a cellular watch because this is an experiment I just ran, you know, trying to see how much I could get away with doing on the watch as kind of a minimalist phone or like a phone replacement. And I had a little bit of trouble, you know, getting everything done with a watch, but it gives you a surprising amount of functionality. You can play your... podcasts, you can type messages to people and it's a little fiddly, but it's not the worst. So I would throw that in as an option. It sounds counterintuitive. You're like more screens and more notifications like buzzing me. Won't that be more distracting? But I'm kind of a believer. So that's the one I'll throw in there. Dom, do you have an idea here for Sam? I have a different suggestion, but it's kind of along the same spirit, which we'll be looking at a foldable flip phone, which also is adding an extra screen into the mix and adding a smaller screen into the mix. But it sounds like the balance I think Sam is trying to strike here is a small phone.

she won't use too much that will sort of stop her from constant phone use, but one that when they do use the phone, won't hurt her eyes. And I guess a flip phone for me, like, you know, Samsung's AdFlipper Moto Razr gives you a little of that because you can have it shut and you can control notifications or apps you can have run on the outer screen. And it can be this sort of minimalist phone experience when it's closed. And you just, I definitely found my general screen time always goes down when I'm using a flip phone. There's something about the psychological barrier that the phone is closed that makes me much less likely to...

open it while I'm watching TV and mindlessly scroll social media or something. It doesn't matter. It only takes a second to open the phone. It's not like it's a hardship, but there's some like imperceptible barrier that makes me more likely just leave it be. And my screen time overall definitely goes down. But when you do have that moment where you give in, you have the device and you want to scroll the news for hours like Xandos, you have a normal size phone that you can open up and it's not going to give eye strain from using it. You know, there's enough screen space to bump the tech size up if that would be helpful in this kind of case. Whereas the Jelly Star, I think it's just too small to even make that really practical. So for me, I think those kind of flip phones give you a bit of the best of both worlds, lowered screen time.

a real functional, useful phone screen when you want to get to it. Yeah. Totally. And that's what I love about a flip phone is you can do so much. And Motorola is like slightly better about letting you just do whatever the hell you want on the cover screen. You have to jump through a couple of hoops on a Samsung phone, but you can get there. But yeah, I run like apps that are by no means meant to be run on a screen that small. And you can get away with stuff like checking bus arrival times or glancing at Google Maps and being like, OK, that's that's my next move. So that would be a super fun option. I hate to be like, I don't know, a mom, but I think we probably all need to get better about focus modes.

Like, you know, they're not perfect. But I think there's a lot I know I could be doing to kind of like tailor what notifications are allowed to bother me at what time. And that would help me kind of cut down on the, oh, I was checking my email and all of a sudden I've been on Instagram for an hour or whatever. So that's like the less fun answer. But yeah, buy a flip phone. That is part of it. Yeah. I think you and I both can kind of the same answer in a way. It's have a real phone maybe, but have some other smaller screen that you can control and limit and make that the screen you use 80% of the time.

while knowing there is a phone there when you really, really need it. And whether that smaller screen is on your wrist or on the outside of the phone, it's kind of getting to the same end result, right? Yeah. Little screen on a big phone. is the way to go, I think. All right. Good luck with your flip phone, Sam. Next we have a message from Alina and she says, currently I'm rocking a Pixel 6a running Graphene OS, but it was already used when I bought it. The screen glass is broken, has 128 gigabytes of storage and the touch gestures don't always work, probably due to the broken glass. Okay. I think it's time for a new phone, Alina. You know, she's concerned about a splash of water, destroying the OLED and is looking for a relatively cheap phone that...

meets her needs. She says she wants to keep it to $500 or under. You know, it has some questions about the Apple ecosystem. iPhone mini comes up again as a thought here. She says, I have all my music as MP3s and use a music player that plays locally stored music, which is 40 gigabytes of stuff that like way to go, is intrigued by folding phones and a flip phone potentially. I think the boring answer is...

A Pixel 9a. And I do think there's a fun answer here. But I mean, the Pixel 9a fits the price bracket. We'll get seven years of OS updates. So you don't have to worry about that. It does mean you are embracing the Google apps and the Google experience. So if you would like to get away from that, a Pixel phone is not going to be the way to go. But I think really for it's it's just my go to for I want the most durable, the most long lasting phone I can get for the least amount of money. It's kind of that like peace of mind phone to me. Like I make my parents buy it.

a Pixel A series when it's their time. Dom, do you have any other ideas or something more fun than my boring Pixel suggestion? I default to the exact same boring answer. I think it's also A, fits a lot of what Alina says. She wants not everything but a lot. B, for me, the moment anyone says around 500 bucks, my brain just fills in.

Pixel 9a. It's a very good default option to be looking at around that price. I might throw in a second shout out to the Fairphone, which I think is very slightly outside of this budget. I think it's 550 euros. And Alina says she's in Germany. So I hope that's a relevant number for her. But she mentions not wanting kind of too much of the Google side. You can get the version running EOS. You can get that in Europe as well. So that's completely de-Googled as an option. She mentions a long-term support and durability. I think it's eight years of EOS updates Fairphone gives you. It's something definitely in that region. So you're getting it for a long time. It's around the right price.

She said she doesn't seem to have two super demanding kind of performance requirements from it. So a Fairphone might be a nice option just for meeting kind of that side of the demand. And it really is going to give you that longevity. And if you do break the screen again, you can just replace it yourself. Hey, it can't be done. We know. Yeah, I put that to the test. All right. Well, I love that she's in Germany and therefore has more than like two options for phones. But yeah, there's your safe answer and then the slightly more daring one. But I think two good options there. So the last question I want to get to.

is the iPhone mini question. And I want to say this is a representative question. I got so many iPhone mini owners reaching out to me, people with the iPhone mini 12 or 13. I sort of brought this. upon us because I prompted it and I own an iPhone 13 mini. But I think a lot of people are at that point with these phones where they're seeing like the performance is slowing down. The battery life wasn't ever great to begin with and is getting steadily worse. So this is for everyone who wrote in with the iPhone mini question. And OK, get ready for this question because it goes on a journey. This is from Zoe. She says, I am the iPhone 12 mini owner. I absolutely love this phone and would take it to my grave if I could.

Same. It's the only phone since iPhone 5, 5S, an original SE. Oh, my God. iPhone 5 is such a banger that I can comfortably use one-handed. And the only one that fits in the infuriatingly tiny pockets found in most women's clothing. Yes. Oh, my God. I so feel this. She says, last year, it flew out of my pocket on a roller coaster and was smashed to oblivion.

This is heartbreaking. Unfortunately, my replacement 12 mini is now showing its age. So she's looking for the upgrade path and it's considered a used iPhone 13 mini, but thinks that'll probably put her back in the same position. The idea of something that folds down to a pocket friendly size is very appealing, but she says she's embedded in the Apple ecosystem. So we'll ideally stick with iPhone unless there's a super compelling Android alternative. She ends this with, finally, if there's no obvious alternative, are my tiny hands doomed to rely on pop sockets forever?

Oh my gosh, Zoe. This is extremely relatable. This is so tough. I just want to say it's probably time to get the smallest iPhone that exists now, which would be like just a regular iPhone 16. But I don't know. Do you have any other ideas for Zoe and all the other suffering iPhone mini owners? Yeah, I feel like we're sort of ending here with another of these sad questions where we just can't give people the answer they want to hear. There is no phone that solves this problem. There is no magical Android alternative that fits the bill. Buy the iPhone 16.

It's like you say, it's the smallest iPhone you're going to get. It's the closest you're going to get to that experience. The Android alternatives like the S25 or the Pixel 10 are basically the same size as an iPhone 16. So if you prefer iOS, you should stick with that. You're not getting a big benefit by jumping to Android. And the only reason for someone who's always positioned to jump to Android is a flip phone. If that's a temptation, I think, you know, we've kind of mentioned a few times. I think they are getting really good now. I'm a big fan of them. I think they don't have to be that expensive. You look like the Motorola Razr, the base Razr models. They're very affordable for what they are, well below a grand and still really solid phones. You do get that compact.

size. They are big when they open up, though. I think people don't always realize that, that they're small when they're shut, they're small in your pocket, they're lightweight, but they actually have bigger screens than, say, an iPhone 16, to pick that as the point of reference. So when it's fully open, it's not going to feel like a small, compact phone. It might actually feel like a really big phone to you when you open the flip phone up. And the last thing I just say is don't wait for the foldable iPhone. We don't know what that will be. We don't know if it'll be a flip or a book style. It's not going to be this year. It might be next year. It might not be next year. It's not worth waiting on for.

Yeah, I would say hold out, I think, if you can to the, you know, we're so close to iPhone 17 season and there are rumors of like a slimmer iPhone. We're doing slim phones this year. The Air might help if that materializes, the iPhone 17 Air. I mean, it would be lighter if the weight is a big part of the concern, right? It doesn't sound like it's going to be smaller in terms of screen size, like we've seen with the Samsung, you know, that version of a thin phone, the edge is, it's not small, it's just.

thinner and lighter and i think that's the way apple's going as well so if weight is your problem i know some people have small phones and it's a weight thing i've spoken to people with wrist issues and arthritis and for them it's not about screen size it's about phone weight and if that's you then then hold out the iphone 17 air or whatever it is might might solve that problem i don't know but if it's if it's that little screen you like and the sort of easy one-handed use then wait for the iphone 17 just because it'll make the 16 cheaper exactly yeah yeah at this point this is sort of like a moratorium on buying new iPhones sort of starts right now where it's like, you might as well just wait and see, you know, they'll take $100 off the price of iPhone 16. I used the Galaxy Edge a bunch, which is, you know, in theory could be like what a potential iPhone 17 Air would be. Being thinner and lighter is.

like makes it feel different. It was very nice. It did not feel like a small phone because it has a big screen in the pocket thing, especially like it's still a big phone. It's still like at the capacity for my like little pouch bags that I'm bringing to the playground. It will fit into an evening clutch, which I do not carry very often, but that was a data point. But yeah, I think it is PopSockets forever, Zoe. I'm sorry. Our colleague Sean Hollister, I think went through the exact same like.

path that she's kind of mentioning he had the iphone mini ditched it for the i think he got a samsung flip phone and had that for about a year and was not happy with it i think you know the battery life was probably equivalent to the mini you know all things considered um and it doesn't like it folds down into a square but it's a thick square so it it doesn't fit in a pocket the same way like i can get the iphone 13 mini into my front jeans pocket and it's not ridiculous Flip phones are still a little bookier. And like you mentioned, when you open it, it is a big phone and you are still doing the big phone, you know, kind of juggle of trying to reach something in the corner of the screen. So, yeah, I think my general advice for the iPhone mini owners is like, first of all, don't download beta software like I did because that has been a journey. But, you know, the things you can try are like get the battery replaced. I don't know if there's if this is a real thing, but a suggestion I saw just for like older phones in general would be to back it up and do a factory reset. And that might.

help performance a little bit. It's like, I haven't tried it myself. It seems, you know, unplug it, plug it back in kind of concept. It's got that energy to it. Yeah. I remember that working a lot on Windows PCs back in the day. I don't know how applicable it is to a phone these days, but it might help. Right. It's something to try. It's like a ritual. You know, you can light some candles. It feels like you're cleansing the phone somehow, getting rid of all that junk you've built up. So give it a go. It's like a juice cleanse for your phone. Yeah. Detox. Yeah. Yeah. I thought, I think about this a lot and it sort of just turns into a dance of like,

When do you feel like it's time to let go? When are you so annoyed with the battery life? It's just not serving you anymore. I don't use my mini that much because I'm bouncing around from phone to phone. But I did have my SIM in it this past few weeks. And it is really slowing down and the battery life is kind of crap. So, yeah, it's...

It might be time. I don't know. I'm going to hold on to mine, but I think I give, if you're looking for permission, like blanket permission to let go of your iPhone mini, I will offer that. Yeah, there's nothing to hold out for. There's nothing on the horizon that will solve this problem. Don't keep going thinking a year from now, the magical phone will arrive that fixes this. Like it's not coming. So just make your peace with it and, you know, enjoy the time you've got left and figure out what the next step is.

This is so sad. It's like, oh my gosh. Grieve for your mini. It's okay. Yes, yes. Maybe we'll have a funeral. Maybe we can have like some kind of service where people can like bring their minis and we'll just let them rest. They've done a lot.

They've done probably more than their little batteries and processors should have. So we'll let them go. Well, that's like a super downer to end on. But that's what we have. Thank you, everyone who wrote in and called in. I listened to all of your messages and read all of your messages. And it was it was so fun. It's so nice to, you know, know you're not alone. And we're all going through this trying to to figure out our next move. And hopefully we we helped some people and didn't depress too many iPhone mini owners. Yeah. But thank you for joining me, Tom.

No, of course. Thank you for having me. All right, that's it for The Verge Cast today. To read more about today's topics, check out the show notes or go to theverge.com. As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings, you can always email us at vergecast at theverge.com or keep calling the hotline 866-VERGE-11. We love hearing from you. Send us all your thoughts and burning questions and ideas for what we should do on the show. We do a hotline question every week, so keep them coming. And if you like what we do here, consider buying a paid subscription.

The show is produced by Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, Travis Larchuk, and Andrew Marino. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Jake Castronakis and the team will be here Friday to talk about the news from the week. And I'll be back next Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com slash vox. That's odoo.com slash vox.