A Curious Space: Leadership, Culture and Teams

In this episode of A Curious Space, Kate and Maddy open up the Culture Clinic for the first time, responding to a letter from a listener we are calling Rowan. Rowan runs a business where two years of deliberate culture-building is being undermined by one person: a commercial director who brings in more revenue than anyone else and makes working life harder for almost everyone around them.   The question Rowan is sitting with is one that will be familiar to many leaders: can I afford to lose this person? Kate and Maddy turn that question around. Have you properly costed what it is to keep them?   What we cover in this episode The tension between visible and invisible costs in organisations, and why the financial impact of difficult behaviour rarely makes it onto a balance sheet.   Research by Pearson and Porath (2005) on workplace incivility, including findings that 50% of people lose significant work time managing around a difficult colleague, 70% vent outside the organisation, and one in eight eventually leave.   Why tolerating behaviour sends a louder signal than any values statement.   How to approach a genuinely different kind of conversation with a high performer whose behaviour is causing damage, one that is curious about what is driving it rather than just addressing the symptom.   The role of reward structures and performance expectations in either reinforcing or shifting the problem.   What support for this kind of conversation can look like, including for the leader having it.   Research referenced Pearson, C. and Porath, C. (2005). On the nature, consequences and remedies of workplace incivility: No time for "nice"? Think again. Academy of Management Perspectives, 19(1), 7-18.   About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com).   Listen and connect Find all episodes of A Curious Space at www.acuriousspacepodcast.com.   Get in touch with a cultural conundrum, a question, or to find out how Kate and Maddy can support your organisation: [email protected].   Credits A Curious Space is produced by Tim Fox with music by Richard Flindell.

Throughout season one of A Curious Space, one name kept coming up: Nancy Kline. Whether we were talking about culture, trust, conflict or storytelling, her framework, the Thinking Environment, kept appearing in the background. So in this post-season deep dive, we decided to give it the conversation it has always deserved. This episode is a proper exploration of Kline's work: where it comes from, what the ten principles actually are, and how both of us use them in our day-to-day work with teams and individuals. What is the Thinking Environment? The Thinking Environment is built on a simple but powerful premise: the quality of everything we do depends on the quality of the thinking we do first. And the quality of our thinking depends on the way we treat each other while we are thinking. Kline identified ten principles that, when present, create the conditions for people to think at their best. We walk through all ten in this episode: Attention: genuinely focused, uninterrupted listening Equality: every person's thinking is welcome and valued Ease: creating the internal spaciousness to think rather than react Encouragement: keeping thinking moving, even when it is uncomfortable Appreciation: acknowledging the thinking, not just the outcome Feelings: making space for emotion as part of the thinking process Information: ensuring people have what they need to think clearly Diversity: actively seeking different perspectives as a source of richness Place: recognising that physical environment shapes thinking Incisive questions: questions that remove the assumptions blocking deeper thought What we talk about We discuss why interruption is so costly (people are interrupted on average every eleven seconds, and the anticipation of it alone changes how we think), how equality in a meeting is not just about who speaks but about the conditions given to each person to think, and why ease is a performance consideration, not a wellbeing one. We also get into the two techniques we both reach for most: thinking rounds and thinking pairs. Rounds give every voice in the room the same quality of space, with no interruption and no right of reply, surfacing perspectives that rarely make it into open discussion. Thinking pairs offer uninterrupted time to think out loud with someone whose entire job is to hold attention. The only follow-up question available is: what more do you think, feel or want to say? Maddy shares her experience of working with a regular thinking partner over the past year, and what that quality of listening has made possible. We also talk practically: how to use rounds to open and close team sessions, why starting with a question about what is going well changes the quality of what follows, and the single simplest change you can make to your next team meeting today: rewrite your agenda headings as questions. Recommended reading Nancy Kline, Time to Think (1999) Nancy Kline, More Time to Think (2009) Kline narrates the audiobook of More Time to Think herself, and having trained with her, Maddy particularly recommends this as a way into the work.   About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Get in touch Questions, reflections, or things you would like us to explore further? We would love to hear from you. Write to us at [email protected] or visit www.acuriousspacepodcast.com Thank you as always to our producer Tim Fox and to Richard Flindell for the music.

Season one comes to a close with perhaps the most timely question we have explored this series: what actually happens to organisations when the pressure is on? In this episode, Kate Nicholroy and Maddie Fox look at the research behind threat rigidity, a well-documented pattern where individuals and systems under stress narrow their thinking, restrict communication, and default to familiar behaviour at precisely the moment when more expansive responses are needed. It is predictable, it is biological, and it is entirely possible to prepare for. Drawing on real examples from the COVID era and beyond, including the better.com mass layoffs, the Marriott response, the Wells Fargo accounts scandal, and the LEGO turnaround, Kate and Maddy explore the difference between organisations that come through sustained and acute pressure with their culture intact and those that don't. The answer is rarely strategy alone. It is almost always the quality of the humanity that leaders choose to maintain under pressure, and the degree to which open, curious, above-the-line practices have been built into organisational life before the crisis arrives. In this episode: Threat rigidity: what it is, where it comes from, and how it shows up in individuals and organisations Why pressure narrows thinking at the neurological level, and what that means for leadership teams The contrast between the better.com Zoom layoffs and Arne Sorenson's Marriott response Wells Fargo, rule beating, and why removing people from a broken system does not fix the system Lego's early 2000s turnaround and the practice of leading at eye level Practical tools: naming what is happening in the room, somatic awareness, above-the-line practice, and the seventh generation question Resources mentioned: Staw, Sandelands and Dutton on threat rigidity Arne Sorenson's March 2020 video to Marriott staff (available publicly online) better.com CEO Zoom call, December 2021 (available publicly online) Donella Meadows on rule beating and systems traps "If You Aspire to Be a Great Leader, Be Present," Harvard Business Review Richard Strozzi-Heckler, Embodied Leadership (available on Audible via Sounds True) About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Connect with us: We would love to know what has landed for you across season one, and what you would like us to explore in season two. Email us at [email protected] or find us at www.acuriousspacepodcast.com Many thanks to Tim Fox for producing the show, and to Richard Flindell for the music throughout.

Kate Nicholroy and Maddie Fox dig into one of the most persistent frustrations in organisational life: why culture change programmes so often fail to deliver, and what leaders can do differently.   They explore the gap between change as an event and transition as an internal process, why the leadership team is always further ahead than the people hearing the news, and why culture does not live in the big moments. It lives in what happens every day in between.   Why 70% of organisational transformations fail, and why the announcement is rarely the problem The Bridges Transition Model: change versus transition, and the three stages of endings, neutral zone, and new beginnings Why the change team is always ahead of everyone else in the room, and how to account for that gap The elephant and the rider: why logical business cases are not enough to shift behaviour What leaders signal through what they measure, and how those signals shape culture more than any values statement Why acknowledging what came before is not sentiment. It is a structural requirement for change that sticks Culture change as a daily leadership practice rather than a project with a launch date     Models and thinkers mentioned The Bridges Transition Model, William Bridges (1991) The Elephant and the Rider, Jonathan Haidt, The Happiness Hypothesis (2006) Family Constellations and systemic principles, Bert Hellinger Appreciative Inquiry (mentioned briefly; worth exploring further)     Reflection questions from this episode Take these into your week:   What am I measuring as a leader, and what does that signal to my people about what I actually value? When did I last ask someone what they would be sad to lose in any change we are making? What is one thing I can do differently in the ordinary spaces between the big moments?   For the next seven days, try noticing one moment each day where culture happens in the margins rather than in a staged event or formal communication. What do you notice, and what does it tell you about where your team really is?   About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Get in touch We would love to hear from you. If you have been part of a culture change programme that genuinely worked, we want to know about it. Reach us at [email protected].   Find all episodes and resources at www.acuriousspacepodcast.com.     Coming up next Episode 10: Purpose and Values Under Pressure. How do you hold yourself to the culture you want when things get hard? That is when it gets crunchy, and we cannot wait to get into it.     With thanks to Tim Fox for producing A Curious Space and to Richard Flindell for the music.

Not One Weather System: Why Your Organisation Has Many Cultures, and What to Do About It If you have ever moved between departments and felt like you had walked into a completely different organisation, this episode is for you. This week, Kate and Maddie are exploring organisational subcultures: what they are, why they form, how they can help or hinder the change you are trying to make, and why understanding power between subcultures is one of the most overlooked skills in organisational life. What we cover in this episode: Kate opens with a surprising detour into the world of bees (specifically, what they do in winter to keep the hive warm), before the conversation turns to the main event. We start by unpacking what subcultures actually are and why they emerge. Drawing on Robin Dunbar's research into the limits of human social connection, Kate and Maddie explore why organisations stop feeling like one cohesive group once they grow beyond a certain size, and what fills that space instead. We then introduce a typology from researchers Martin and Siehl, which describes three kinds of subcultures: Enhancing subcultures, which amplify and reinforce the dominant culture of the organisation. Orthogonal subcultures, which are simply different, not aligned or opposed, just doing their own thing. And countercultural subcultures, which actively push back against the dominant direction. Maddy brings in the origin story of the Skunk Works project at Lockheed Martin, one of the most famous examples of a deliberately created enhancing subculture, designed to cut through bureaucracy and drive innovation at speed. We also touch on Google's cycling culture as an example of how an orthogonal subculture can create unexpected cross-functional connections. Kate then shares a case study from researchers Ogbonna and Harris (2015), based on a Premier League football club the researchers call Regent FC. It is a forensic look at what happens when a powerful subculture is directly threatened by organisational change, and what leaders can learn from why that change did not succeed. We close with some practical things to try, including how to audit the subcultures in your own organisation, and a personal reflection prompt for anyone who has recently changed roles or been promoted. Key concepts and thinkers mentioned: Robin Dunbar and Dunbar's Number, the idea that human beings can maintain stable social relationships with roughly 150 people at most. His book is listed below. Amy Edmondson's research on psychological safety and the role that team-level culture can play in providing safety even within a broader unsafe organisation. Her book is also listed below. Martin and Siehl's typology of organisational subcultures: enhancing, orthogonal, and countercultural. Ogbonna and Harris (2015), a case study on subculture, power, and failed culture change in a Premier League football club. Things to try: Do a subculture audit. Map the subcultures that exist in your organisation. Think about what each one is doing, which type it represents, and whether it is helping or creating drag on what you are trying to build. Consider what needs to be consistent across the whole organisation, and where genuine difference might actually be a strength rather than a problem. Reflect on your own position in the ecosystem. Which subcultures are you part of? Which ones have you recently left, perhaps through a change in role or level? What might that mean for how you are perceived, and for the relationships you may need to rebuild? Recommended reading: Amy Edmondson, The Fearless Organization Robin Dunbar, Friends: Understanding the Hidden Networks of Our Social Lives Katherine May, Wintering Next episode: Kate and Maddie turn their attention to culture change itself. How do you drive meaningful change in an organisation in a way that actually works? That one is coming soon. About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Get in touch: We would love to hear what you think. You can reach us at [email protected] If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review on your podcast listening platform, and consider telling a colleague who would find it useful. A Curious Space is produced by Tim Fox. Music by Richard Flindell. Thank you both.

Conflict is not the problem. Avoiding it is. In this episode, Kate and Maddie get into one of the most misunderstood dynamics in workplace culture: conflict. Not the dramatic kind, but the everyday kind. The disagreement that goes unspoken in a meeting. The tension that surfaces as gossip rather than conversation. The team that looks cohesive on the surface but is quietly stuck. They explore how we are each shaped around conflict before we even walk into a room, what leaders can do to manage themselves through difficult conversations, and how to build team cultures where productive, generative conflict is actually possible. What we cover How your personal history shapes the way you show up in conflict, often without you realising it. The difference between task conflict (disagreeing about the work) and relational conflict (it has become about the person), and why one can tip into the other faster than you would expect. Why high-agreeableness teams are particularly vulnerable to conflict going underground, and what that costs them over time. The "above a five" rule: if a reaction is disproportionate, the issue is almost never the thing being discussed. What to do before a difficult conversation, including timing, mindset, and the "just like me" exercise from Google's Project Aristotle research. How to stay grounded during conflict: active listening, reflecting back, and what your body is telling you. Practical tools for creating a culture of productive conflict in your team, including Nancy Kline's thinking rounds, pre-mortems, de Bono's six thinking hats, and how to set ground rules before you need them. Resources mentioned No Hard Feelings: Emotions at Work by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy Time to Think by Nancy Kline (the thinking environment and thinking rounds) The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni The Thomas Kilmann Conflict Mode Instrument (a tool for understanding your conflict style) De Bono's Six Thinking Hats Try this this week Start your next team meeting with a thinking round. Ask one question: what is going well on this project right now? Give everyone uninterrupted space to answer. Notice what it does to the room. About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Get in touch Got a question for our culture clinic at the end of the series? Send it to [email protected] Find us at www.acuriousspacepodcast.com Next episode Subcultures within organisations: how to influence them, whether they are helpful, and what they mean for driving change across a whole organisation.  This episode wouldn't have been nearly as fabulous without the work of our brilliant producer, Tim Fox, and our catchy music by Richard Flindell.               

Trust is one of those words that gets used a lot in organisations and examined rarely. In this episode, Kate and Maddie get into what trust actually means in the context of teams, why low trust is so costly, and what you can do to build and repair it in practice. They explore a framework for understanding trust not as a single thing but as a set of distinct components, and why that distinction matters enormously when something has gone wrong. What We Cover Why trust matters more than most organisations realise Low trust has a measurable cost. When people don't feel safe, they stop collaborating openly, they paper-trail decisions, and they spend energy managing the mistrust rather than doing the work. Kate shares some vivid examples from her own career. What trust actually is Trust, at its simplest, is choosing to make yourself vulnerable to another person's actions. Teammates have to get comfortable with that vulnerability in order to build real trust with one another. The different types of trust Rather than treating trust as all or nothing, Kate and Maddie explore a model that breaks it into three core components: competence trust (can you do what you say?), integrity trust (will you do what you said?), and benevolence trust (do you care about my interests?). They also discuss sincerity as a fourth dimension: do you mean what you say? How trust is built It is not built in big moments. It is stacked in small, repeated, reciprocal actions over time. Kate and Maddie talk through what that looks like in practice, and why the away day is not the answer (though it can play a supporting role when done well). Organised fun: what works and what really does not Trust falls. Compulsory group dances. Outdoor adventure days with no opt-out. Kate and Maddie have opinions. They also point to Priya Parker's work on intentional gatherings as a more considered approach. How to repair trust when it breaks The repair looks different depending on which type of trust has fractured. Kate and Maddie walk through practical approaches for each: narrowing and demonstrating competence, owning integrity gaps without justification, and listening deeply when benevolence trust has been broken. Team contracting as a foundation Setting clear, explicit agreements about how a team works together gives everyone a shared reference point. It makes calling out a breach of trust feel less personal and more like holding each other to what was agreed. Reflecting on your own pattern of trust How do you approach trust with someone you don't know yet? Are you trust-first, or do you need evidence first? Are there types of people you tend to trust more or less quickly? These questions are worth sitting with. References and Resources The Thin Book of Trust by Charles Feltman A short, practical book on trust in organisations. Explores sincerity, reliability, competence, and care as the core components of trust. The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni Trust is the foundational layer in Lencioni's model. The book includes practical exercises for building it. Worth reading alongside the framework discussed in this episode. An integrative model of organizational trust, Mayer, Davis & Schoorman (1995)  Research on competence-based, integrity-based, and benevolence-based trust in organisational contexts. Brene Brown on trust and vulnerability Brene Brown's work on vulnerability underpins much of the conversation in this episode. Her TED Talk on vulnerability remains one of the most watched of all time. She also has specific resources on trust, including her BRAVING acronym, available at brenebrown.com. Amy Brann, Neuroscience for Coaches Referenced in relation to how low psychological safety activates threat responses in the brain, reducing the capacity for higher-order thinking and collaboration. Priya Parker, The Art of Gathering Mentioned in relation to how to bring teams together intentionally. A practical and thoughtful guide to designing gatherings, both social and organisational, that actually do what you want them to do. Practical Things to Try Identify which type of trust has broken down. When something feels off in a relationship or team, ask whether it is a competence issue, an integrity issue, or a benevolence issue. The answer shapes the conversation. Reflect on your own pattern of trust. Do you extend trust by default, or do you need evidence first? Are there patterns in who you tend to trust more or less readily? What criteria are you using? Contract with your team on ways of working. Make your expectations of one another explicit. It gives you a foundation to return to if trust is breached, without it feeling like a personal attack. In a repair conversation: own the gap, explain the reasoning, and then be boring. Acknowledge what happened, provide context without justification, and then be predictably consistent until a new track record is established. Next Episode Kate and Maddie are talking about conflict in teams. If you have a question, conundrum, or situation involving conflict at work that you would like them to discuss in a bonus episode, send it to [email protected]. All questions are handled anonymously. About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast platform of choice, or share it with a colleague who would find it useful. Wonderful Producer: Tim Fox Fabulous Music: Richard Flindell

In this episode, Kate and Maddie dive into belonging: why it matters so much to individuals and organisations, what it actually looks and feels like in practice, and how you can start building it in your team today. Spoiler: it's not about writing a policy. It's about the small stuff. What We Cover 1. Belonging beyond a slogan We talk about why belonging is so fundamental, to individuals and to organisations. Kate shares insights from Helen Beedham's new book People Glue, which looks at what makes organisations sticky: the kind that people want to join, stay in, and bring their best selves to. We explore the neuroscience of exclusion (yes, it literally hurts), why belonging is a collective responsibility, and why it takes more than one "inclusion month" to make it real. 2. Belonging vs inclusion vs fit There's an important distinction between diversity, inclusion, and belonging, and there's one word that comes up constantly in hiring that we really don't like. We look at why "cultural fit" is a lazy shorthand that often just means "like me," how it quietly blocks difference, and what a better question to be asking might be. We also take a small detour into the nine-box grid. Kate has feelings. 3. Designing belonging without erasing difference Diverse teams genuinely outperform, but only when they're well supported. We look at Randall Peterson's research on what helps diverse teams thrive, including building trust deliberately, guarding against coordination failures, and making decision-making transparent. We also talk about amplification, a simple but powerful practice that came out of the Obama administration's female staffers and still holds up brilliantly today. Things to Try Share who you are, not just what you do. As a leader, try telling your team something about yourself that has nothing to do with work. You're modelling that there's room here for full humans, not just job titles. It's a small act that signals a lot. Start your next meeting with a check-in. Two words, one to ten, a mood thermometer, a llama picture: pick your format. The point is acknowledging that people arrive as whole people, not just resources. It also gives you useful information as a leader about who might need a bit more support. Watch who has airtime. Run yourself a quiet experiment this week: observe who speaks in meetings, whose ideas land, and whose get talked over. Then deliberately invite in the quieter voices. Notice what shifts. Try amplification. When someone's idea gets echoed by someone else, name the originator: "As Kate was saying..." It's simple, it's effective, and it changes the texture of a room over time. Find Out More People Glue by Helen Beedham No Hard Feelings: Emotions at Work and How They Help Us Succeed by Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown (or her podcast, for her thinking on belonging specifically) Time to Think by Nancy Kline (on the Thinking Environment and equality of voice in meetings) Randall Peterson's research on diversity and team performance https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/four-ways-get-best-out-diverse-teams-randall-s-peterson/  About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Agony Aunt/Culture Clinic Got a culture challenge you'd like Kate and Maddie to think through? We're collecting questions for our Agony Aunt episodes at the end of this series. Send yours to [email protected] If you enjoyed this episode, a five-star rating or a follow goes a long way for a new podcast. And if you know someone who'd love this, please share it with them. Thanks to our producer Tim Fox and music creator Richard Flindell for making A Curious Space sound the way it does.

What if the narratives running through your organization are shaping performance in ways you've never noticed? In this episode, Maddie and Kate explore the power of storytelling at three critical levels: the stories we tell ourselves, the stories around us, and the stories organizations tell. From growth mindset to system traps, from medieval fairs to Patagonia's environmental activism, we unpack how deliberate storytelling can transform individual performance, team dynamics, and organizational culture. Plus, we share why appreciation matters more than you think, and what a housekeeper's trip to Hawaii can teach us about company values. In This Episode The Stories We Tell Ourselves How self-narratives become self-fulfilling prophecies The power of reframing and conducting a "story audit" Carol Dweck's growth mindset research: why praising effort matters more than praising intelligence Practice makes progress: shifting from fixed to growth mindsets The Stories Around Us The Pygmalion Effect: how expectations shape performance System traps and the "drift to low performance" Why the nine-box grid might be reinforcing the wrong narratives The emotional bank account: why specific appreciation beats generic praise How to escape the vortex of negative organisational narratives The Stories Organizations Tell Why leaders need to repeat messages until they're sick of saying them How to honor organisational heritage while driving change The Ritz Carlton's $2,000 laptop story and what it teaches about culture Patagonia's environmental activism narrative and paying legal fees for protesters Crafting change narratives that connect to existing organisational stories One Thing to Try If you're a leader running a project or implementing change, try writing the story of your initiative. Don't just focus on the what and why—think about: How does this link to the past? How does it build on existing organizational narratives? How does this help evolve those stories? What future are you trying to create? Write it out, then share it with people and see if it lands differently. Referenced in This Episode Books: Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows The Future of the Responsible Company: What We've Learned from Patagonia's First 50 Years by Patagonia Time to Think, Nancy Kline Research & Concepts: Carol Dweck's Growth Mindset research (Stanford University) The Pygmalion Effect (Rosenthal and Jacobson) System traps: "Drift to Low Performance" and "Success to the Successful" from Thinking in Systems, Donella Meadows Gallup workplace engagement studies Nancy Kline's work on appreciation and thinking environments Watch: Ted Lasso (Apple TV) - A masterclass in building culture through storytelling Connect With Us Got a question for our Agony Aunts episode? We'd love to hear from you! Send your workplace dilemmas, leadership challenges, or organizational puzzles to: [email protected] About the Hosts Maddie Fox is the founder of Madfox Group, working with organizations on leadership development, culture change, and coaching. Kate Nicholroy is the founder of The Good Ideas Agency, specializing in innovation, systems thinking, and organizational development. Credits Music: Richard Flindell Producer: Tim Fox If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support helps us reach more curious leaders. Coming Next Episode: Building cultures that enable belonging—and why you'd want to.

How individuals influence culture (and what Zorro can teach us about it) Culture often gets talked about as something set by leaders, strategies and values decks. In this episode of A Curious Space, we zoom in somewhere else. We explore the role individuals play in shaping culture day to day, through small choices, habits and behaviours that quietly ripple out across teams and organisations. We unpack a simple but powerful idea: we all have the power to significantly shape the cultures we are part of, especially when we do it together. In this episode, Kate and Maddie discuss: Why culture is made up of small actions rather than grand gestures How individuals can influence culture intentionally, even without formal authority Emotional contagion, mood hoovers and radiators The spheres of control, influence and concern, and why they matter when change feels overwhelming What Zorro can teach us about growing influence by starting small How team identity shapes behaviour and outcomes Why being deliberate about “how we want to be” as a team really matters As ever, we share practical reflections, useful frameworks and ideas you can take straight back into your work. References and further reading Stephen Covey – Spheres of Control, Influence and Concern Margaret Heffernan – Beyond Measure Sean Achor – The Happiness Advantage Haslam, Reicher & Platow – Research on leadership identity and “who we are” Drexler–Sibbet Team Performance Model Got a team dilemma? We’re collecting questions, challenges and conundrums for our Agony Aunt episodes later in the series. If you’ve got a tricky team dynamic, a culture question, or something you’d love a thoughtful outside perspective on, email us at: (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com).   Thank you Huge thanks to our brilliant producer, Tim Fox, for keeping us on track and making the podcast sound far more coherent than it sometimes feels in the moment. And thank you to our music creator, Richard Flindell,  for the soundtrack that carries us in and out of these conversations so beautifully. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it, rate it, or send it to someone who might need a reminder that small actions really do matter.

In this episode of A Curious Space, Kate and Maddie explore one of the biggest (and most underestimated) forces shaping organisational culture: leaders and founders. From emotional “weather systems” to decision-making habits and unexamined assumptions, this conversation looks at how culture is created every day — often unintentionally — through how leaders show up, decide, and relate to others. Along the way, we share practical reflections, coaching insights, and one simple thing you can try immediately if you lead (or influence) others. What we explore 1. Leaders and founders set the emotional temperature How leaders’ moods, stress levels and ways of showing up ripple through teams — whether they intend it or not. We explore why this impact is amplified in leadership roles and how awareness is the first lever for change. 2. Decision-making as culture in action Who gets listened to, how decisions really get made (not just how governance says they should), and how leaders shape culture through what they prioritise, question, or bypass. 3. The unintended influence leaders carry From inherited beliefs and assumptions to past organisational experiences, leaders bring a lot with them. We unpack why unexamined assumptions can quietly undermine good intentions — and what helps surface them. One thing to try Before your next meeting, pause for 30 seconds and ask yourself: “How do I want to be in this room — and what will help me show up that way?” It might be a breath, a reset, a smile before you click “join”, or building small gaps between meetings. Tiny shifts in presence can have outsized effects. Find out more The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership – Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman & Kaley Warner Klemp (Including the simple but powerful above the line / below the line model) Harvard Business Review article: If You Want to Be a Great Leader, Be Present On mindfulness, presence, and the measurable impact leaders have on team performance and wellbeing Agony Aunt: your questions wanted We’re collecting real dilemmas for our upcoming Agony Aunt–style bonus episodes. If you have: a tricky team dynamic a leadership challenge a culture or collaboration question 📩 Email us at (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). Coming up next In the next episode, we shift the lens away from leaders and ask: What role can everyone else play in shaping culture — regardless of job title? Thanks for listening, and see you next time in A Curious Space.

In the first episode of A Curious Space, hosts Kate Nicholroy and Maddie Fox kick off their opening series with a practical exploration of organisational culture: what it really is, how it forms, and why leaders can’t afford to ignore it. Moving beyond values statements and posters on the wall, Kate and Maddie unpack culture as “the way things actually get done around here” — the visible and invisible forces that shape behaviour, decision-making and performance. Using the iceberg model of culture, they explore the gap between what organisations say they value and what people experience day to day. Through examples from Timpsons, Netflix and investment banking, they examine how different cultural choices play out in practice, why culture change takes time, and how small leadership behaviours can create powerful ripple effects. The episode also introduces new ways of thinking about organisations as living systems rather than machines — and what that means for leadership, trust and learning. This episode is for leaders who know culture matters, and want to shape it intentionally rather than leaving it to chance. Key leadership reflections: Culture is tested most when leaders are under pressure Small, repeated leadership behaviours create outsized cultural impact People are quick to spot dissonance between stated values and lived reality Owning the culture you actually have enables more honest hiring and engagement Fear shuts down learning — and leaders set the tone for both Resources mentioned: Wheatley, Margaret — Leadership and the New Science Heffernan, Margaret — Beyond Measure: The Big Impact of Small Changes Coyle, Daniel — The Culture Code Morgan, Gareth — Images of Organization McCord, Patty — Powerful: Building a Culture of Freedom and Responsibility Gratton, Lynda — work on organisational “hotspots” and high-performing teams Brown, Brené — writing and talks on leadership, vulnerability and high performance Send us your agony aunt suggestions, or your general thoughts to [email protected]  we'd love to hear from you! About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com). This episode was recorded by your hosts Maddie Fox of MadFox Group, and Kate Nicholroy of the Good Ideas Agency.  It was produced by Tim Fox with original music by Richard Flindell.

Episode 0: Welcome to a Curious Space What does it really mean to be human at work, and why does that matter more than ever right now? Senior leaders are under more pressure than ever, to deliver results, keep teams engaged, and drive innovation, while navigating constant change and uncertainty. In this intro episode, Kate Nicholroy and Maddie Fox explain why curiosity and culture are the two most powerful levers you can pull to build high-performing, resilient organisations. They share insights from their work as coaches and facilitators, explore the real challenges organisations face today, and explain what to expect from Season 1: practical, actionable ways to influence culture and make your organisation thrive. If you lead people or teams, this is your space to think differently—and make work better for everyone. Welcome to A Curious Space! About the hosts Kate Nicholroy is a systemic team coach and facilitator working with senior leadership teams across the UK to help them think and work better together. She is founder of the Good Ideas Agency (www.goodideasagency.com) and holds executive coaching accreditations with the EMCC and ICF. Maddie Fox is a senior HR leader and executive coach working with individuals, teams and organisations, who want to develop authentic, conscious leadership skills, navigate challenging change and build foundations to become more resilient. She is the founder of MadFox Group (www.madfoxgroup.com).   Transcript MadFox (00:09.89) Happy Friday, Kate. Kate Nicholroy (00:11.765) Friday! How are you doing today? MadFox (00:15.614) I am good thank you, I am good, how are you? Kate Nicholroy (00:18.825) Yeah, excited for this intro episode to a curious space. MadFox (00:23.82) Yeah. So we thought that it would probably be a good idea to let the world know who on earth we are and why we're doing a podcast and what we're going to be covering in our first season. So Kate, why this podcast and why now? Kate Nicholroy (00:40.565) Well, I think when we were talking about this, this is really a podcast for leaders and people within organizations who want to make their organizations a better place for the people in them so that they can achieve better results, so that they can grow, so that they can adapt to everything that's going on in the world. And I think in our work as coaches and facilitators, what we see is a lot of teams and organizations Just having a really tough time with everything that's going on economically, a lot of the stuff that is happening politically across the world right now is making it really hard for people working within organisations. And they're having to adapt, they're having to change. And we're hearing a lot about the need to increase resilience and reduce burnout and teams being restructured and restructured and restructured to the point that the organisation has almost lost a sense of who's doing what and how. work gets done. And within that, it can be really hard to remember actually, what is it to be human at work? And how does being really human help our organisations to thrive? So I think it was all about how do we share some of the things we know that are helpful? How do we help leaders who want to have healthier, more successful, more sustainable organisations? MadFox (02:03.67) Yeah, lovely. And I think that some of what you're talking about there is actually people are reacting in a very normal way to what is a very extenuating circumstances at the moment with all the things that you've described. And I think that can get a little bit lost too when we're always focused on the outcome in terms of less about how we can support people. Kate Nicholroy (02:27.733) Absolutely. And we expect a lot about leaders and I think we'll talk about that. Leaders are supposed to lead their teams, help their organisations navigate this uncertainty and ambiguity, still achieve great results, help their teams with their emotions and their resilience and their focus. But actually leaders too are themselves human. So how can we create organisations that work for leaders, work for the people that they're working with? and still achieve really great things for the organization. And it's how do you navigate what sometimes feel like quite strong tensions within that. MadFox (03:07.97) Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about all of that with you. Kate Nicholroy (03:12.167) And I think for me, there was just something in all of our conversations leading up to this where we're both really curious about this and that there's something about curiosity being a really key skill for this modern age. You you need to keep learning. And also it's a source of a lot of joy, think, learning at work. You when you see people who have learned new skills, who've got new ideas and they want to try them out, like the sort of bubbling energy that comes with that. So... We thought it might just be useful to introduce ourselves. so Maddy, can you talk us through what curiosity means in your life and what's got you to being on this podcast today? MadFox (03:56.983) Yeah, absolutely. So I think inherently I've always been quite a curious person. appreciate a lot of people might say this. And I actually think my time at school sort of dimmed that light a little bit. I think I was quite sort of, I wanted to know practically, know, schools taught in a very particular way, particularly when we were at school, I appreciate it might have changed. somewhat now since I haven't been there for quite a while. But it was that sort of learning by rote, you're learning facts, learning to pass exams, etc. And I always just wanted to know, well, why? What was in that that was going to help me? I definitely drove my maths teacher mad by saying, honestly, can you tell me how trigonometry is going to help me in everyday life? There have also then been points in my life where someone has actually said to me, it's just basic trigonometry and I went, ah, that's why I was meant to learn it. for me, having some practical connections and pragmatic connection to what I was learning was really important. And I think as a result, kind of missed out a lot at school. And my first job, which I thought was, you know, just a What am I doing with my life? I'll be there for a few months while I work that out. Actually turned into four years. And I, yes, yeah. I worked for a well-known electrical retailer in the UK for our UK listeners. will know who they are. And I had a wonderful first manager who continually asked me, Kate Nicholroy (05:26.613) That's always the way. MadFox (05:46.935) what did I think should be done about something? So I would go with a problem and he'd say, well, what would you like to do about that? I was like, one, I get a choice and two, I get to kind of work this out myself. And then I would make a suggestion and he would really support me on that. And what I found was people then kept coming to me saying, well, what would you do about this? And so I sort of found myself in this place where I was really trying to help other people get curious too and experimental, right? Let's do something. Let's see if it works. And as part of that job, I ended up on a leadership, three day leadership workshop and the person who ran it was very inspirational. You could see a lot of change happening in the room. You could see people really connecting with him and with the content. And I just went, that's really cool. I want to do that. So it sort of brought me back to learning. And I realized that, actually there are different learning styles. you as I got to sort of learn more about how you facilitate, how you train, what coaching is all about, all of those sorts of things. And it started to make sense why I wasn't really learning at school, but that didn't mean I wasn't interested in learning or I wasn't curious. Yeah, so I think that kind of remained a thread and from that job on have continued to do things in learning and development, in HR, had a wonderful experience. sort of, I guess, maybe it was my third job, fourth job, and where I was connected with coaching. And I was like, this is kind of really cool. This is how you help other people or people can help you using coaching style and coaching questions to be curious, to learn things for yourself. to explore in a different way. There's something so potent about asking a question a particular way that allows someone to let their thinking flow, which is definitely, and we'll talk about this, one of the things that you and I have bonded over. So yeah, yeah, think it remained a thread through all of that. yeah, and here we are. Kate Nicholroy (08:01.045) 100%. Kate Nicholroy (08:09.909) And I also think a thing that we really have in common is that pragmatic side to all of this. Like, love theory. I love exploring it from a theoretical perspective. But there is something where you get to the point of, but how do you do this in practice? Actually, what are the steps? What is real here? And what is realistic? And what is just a nice idea? And I think we both, well, I don't know. We both really align on the importance of that and the fun of that. Fab. MadFox (08:35.916) Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So before we talk about how we met and what's our story collectively, tell us a little bit about your story and what curiosity means to you. Kate Nicholroy (08:54.088) So my parents were both teachers. So I think that inherently creates an environment where you are encouraged to be curious and to explore what you're interested in and get asked a lot of questions to help you think things through and think things differently. And from there, I went on to do a history degree because I was generally curious about all of the subjects that I did at school. And the joy of history is you can study anything you like as long as it was... yesterday or before. So, you know, I did the history of medicine, economic history, political history, history of art, history of architecture, history of witchcraft through the ages. Anything you like, you can just look at through that lens. And when I got to the end of university, I was like, I want a proper job, what do I do? And I had the opportunity to go and work in China for a year. And for me, the big driver was that I didn't know anything like I'd read Wild Swans. That was all that I knew about China. And what an adventure to go somewhere that you don't know anything about at all. And then when I came back, I started my career in HR in a very unionized environment. And I learned a lot there about how organizations try to control people and try to use policies and procedures to control and you're being involved in employee relations meetings with union reps and HR people and just looking at this going, this is not helping anybody. Like I just don't believe that this is the way to get people doing great work. So I then decided that I would go and work in learning and development and I learned a lot there about how do individuals learn? How do you help people grow as sort of technical specialists and grow and learn as managers and leaders? And then From there, I moved into a digital product innovation role. Makes no sense as a career move, but I did it. It was a lot of fun. And that was a really interesting lens on organizations because instead of thinking about how do individuals grow, I was thinking about if my innovation team creates something brand new, A, there's a lot of learning that has to go into that. But then B, when we move it into the department that is going to use it ongoing, how do you help them learn? Kate Nicholroy (11:19.945) and be prepared to receive that and embed that into their processes and structures and thinking. Like the hardest part, I think, of innovation is actually not creating a widget or creating a thing. It's how do you get the receiving team to embrace and adapt and use it and make sure that it works at that level. And so that's really interesting when you're looking at how an organization functions, because it's just a very different lens on it. And from there, I moved into working in an innovation and transformation role where I was sort of at a strategic level across the organisation. They had this big five year strategy plan and it wasn't going very well and trying to go, right, how do we get all of these different departments who have to work on these big strategic projects who are not used to working together to understand how to do that? And what are the levers to to pull to influence that? And so much of it came down to how do you create understanding and trust amongst people? How do you create safe environments where people are able to say, I don't understand or don't think this is the right thing? How do you help people learn how to have really healthy conflict, not like really toxic, horrible conflict? And so I fell in love with coaching approaches, with facilitation techniques, with tools like design thinking, because they're just really good at creating ways for people to think about things differently so that organizations can then be different. and I'm still super curious about all of that. MadFox (12:51.246) Yeah, I think it's so right that that that sort of that how piece because so many organizations I work with say they want to be a curious or a learning organization say that it's okay to to fail. And what you've talked about there in terms of that trust and safety. It's like, actually does the culture allow for this? And as you said, we really did bond over that pragmatic piece because all the theory in the world, which we love by the way, and we're very geeky about that, is fantastic. And what really happens when the rubber hits the road with that? And how do people embody that, practice that, get to get it wrong? Like I definitely grew, I feel like I grew up in an environment, I was shaped by an environment that getting things wrong wasn't... actually that great and that's the antithesis of learning it seems. Kate Nicholroy (13:53.045) Absolutely, and I've worked for a number of leaders in my career and there is one who stands out because the environment that she created, we were really pushed to high standards and to constant achievement, but there was no failure because if anything went wrong, it was never, well, that's failed, it's right, what are we going to do to get this back on its feet? Or what have we learned from this and how do we pivot? So it was an absolute masterclass in how do you create environments where people are motivated, work really hard. and if things don't go right, can then work together to fix it. And I think it's that work together piece, because that's usually in the room, there's the solutions. But if people aren't feeling safe or they're feeling they need to protect their own interests, then you don't get the collaboration. And a lot of that culture is driven by leaders. And I find it fascinating when you've got pockets of that in otherwise dysfunctional organisations as well. MadFox (14:50.412) Yeah, yeah. And so much of that is about being listened to, right? Or being prepared to listen to openly what others have to say in that process of working together to get the result. And I guess that's something else we've bonded over is Nancy Klein and her thinking environment. We love Nancy Klein, who, for a quick quote on her, says that on average, we are interrupted every 11 seconds. Kate Nicholroy (15:09.971) love Nancy. Kate Nicholroy (15:21.055) temptation to interrupt you in the middle of that sentence was almost unbearable. MadFox (15:23.542) Absolutely. Kate Nicholroy (15:26.877) So I think people are getting the sense of what we're interested in. But how did we meet, Maddie? MadFox (15:28.654) Yes. Well, so shout out to Kirsty Lewis of the School of Facilitation. We were both at one of her gatherings earlier this year, I think. In fact, when are we putting this out there? Early 2025, should we say, is when we met. this might be out in January, in which case, yes, last year. Kate Nicholroy (15:36.405) Whoop whoop. Kate Nicholroy (15:47.983) last year. MadFox (15:57.031) And I guess those things that are starting to come through, you're starting to hear now, are the things that we really bonded over. And this sort of curiosity and interest in how organizations, teams and cultures work, actually work, what's going on in them and really kind of geeking out on human behavior, particularly in this world where that's a real challenge. right now. And yeah, I think we got sent off on a walk, didn't we? We were walking around the block and having such a nice time, even though it was 30 degrees and you were worried about burning. Kate Nicholroy (16:36.309) And we didn't want to go back, we were having such a good chat. Kate Nicholroy (16:45.129) Yeah, for those of you listening online, I am Ginger. MadFox (16:48.718) you Kate Nicholroy (16:49.653) It's just a constant fear. MadFox (16:51.758) So what was it that you really liked about me, Kate? Kate Nicholroy (16:56.853) That's such a great question. I mean, I think it was just that we are so curious and interested in all of these things, interested in the research, interested in how people are applying it and sort of enjoying the ridiculousness that comes with this world sometimes. So I think we have a mutual irreverence and hopefully that will make some of our conversations that might be quite theoretical a bit more fun and interesting on this podcast. MadFox (17:27.532) Yeah, and as we will be learning too, right, we don't have all the answers. So we will definitely be learning as we go along the way as well. Kate Nicholroy (17:37.269) Totally. So for leaders and listeners listening, what are the things they can expect us to be curious about on this podcast? MadFox (17:45.359) So cultures, organizations, leaders and teams and essentially how they respond to each other and the world around them is what we are super curious about and what we're really going to be focusing on. And I think because of both our expertise is we do have a clear view on what makes for a healthy organization. But we also want to explore new research. impact of current trends on organizations and different ways of thinking about challenges that they might face, and also finding new ways of creating great organizations. So with that in mind, what is our first season all about? Kate Nicholroy (18:31.263) So the first season is all about culture. So how do you create organizations that achieve higher levels of performance by focusing on creating really powerful, sustainable cultures that drive innovation, drive growth, that are resilient to change and that enable the people in them to thrive and learn and grow and evolve. So if you're interested in how to... get sustainable growth in your organization and you're interested in how culture might support that. This is the podcast for you. And what I love about culture is I think leaders have a really big impact in it, but I think it's something that anyone can affect in their team. Teams are just made up of people and you can make a decision to influence your team in any way that you like. So hopefully whoever you are. if you work in an organisation, there should be insights here that will help your team to do better. And we wanted to start with culture as a jumping off point to I'm sure many other seasons to come because it's such a fundamental glue in teams and yet it's so intangible. So people sort of know what it is, we all talk about it, but how do you actually influence it? How do you... get your hands around it. I think we've all joined new organisations and you can feel that it's different in some way from where you've come from. But if you want to influence and change your organisation, what are the things that you need to be thinking about there? So that's sort of the first episode, first season. MadFox (20:13.484) Yeah, and with that, articulate it. I think often people really struggle when someone asks them in an interview, what's the culture like around here? And it can be difficult to explain it as well. So with that in mind, we want some shared understanding of what we mean by culture. And our plan for the first episode is called What Even Is Culture Anyway? And should be ready for you to listen now when this intro goes out. and we will be doing fortnightly episodes. Kate Nicholroy (20:46.741) And one of the things that we want to do towards the end of the season is to have some sort of agony out slots. So if you have an issue, a challenge, a situation in your team that you think relates to culture that you'd like some advice on, then drop us a line. We'll be putting how in the show notes. And at the end of the season, we will answer some of your questions and queries. So, yeah. MadFox (21:13.108) And can we also share that Kate has promised me that we can have some bonus sessions on books, another shared passion. Books of all sorts of topics, but particularly on these topics, obviously, because we want to make it relatable. So hopefully we can talk about some of the theory in a bit more depth as well. Kate Nicholroy (21:36.533) And I think I quite often recommend books to people. If I was a doctor, think books would be my solution to many things. So yes, we'll do some fun book episodes and we'll see where this adventure takes us. So if this sounds up your street, if you are a leader or you work in an organisation and you want to make it an even better place to work, reach even higher levels of performance, then... MadFox (21:45.513) Yeah. Kate Nicholroy (22:05.503) Come and join us in our curious space. MadFox (22:08.856) We look forward to seeing you there.