PODCAST · education
Confronting The Line
by Anne L. Peterson
We are here to explore the world of personal development, and examine the often blurry line between transformation and exploitation. We are dedicated to finding that line, then looking, listening and learning in service of safer seeking for life long learners, like us.
Episodes
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Integrity, Part 2 Preview: Prove It
Michael Jensen’s 2009 paper, “Integrity: Without It Nothing Works,” claims that integrity creates “workability,” and workability creates performance. In this short preview, Chris Shelton asks Anne Peterson to prove it. She tries with two examples, a bicycle that won’t work and a stool missing a...
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E74 | The Self-Help Idea of Integrity That Gives Harmful People a Pass — with Chris Shelton
A popular self-help definition of integrity says it's simply keeping your word, with nothing to do with good versus bad. So Chris Shelton asked the follow-up: by that definition, can a serial killer be a person of integrity? After nearly 30 years inside programs built on this model, Anne Peterson...
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E73 | 50 Years Treating Trauma and Mind Control — A Therapist on Where Self-Help Crosses the Line
Susan Pease Banitt has spent nearly fifty years as a trauma therapist, including decades working with survivors of mind control and trafficking. In this conversation, she turns that clinical eye on the self-help world: where it helps, where it crosses the line, and how to tell the difference.…
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Getting Clear: A Preview from Beyond the Line
This episode is a sample from Beyond the Line, the companion space to Confronting the Line. Over the next few months, Beyond the Line is running a series on the clichés that show up all over self-help and personal development: phrases many of us heard so often we stopped asking what they meant....
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PART 2 | Inside a High-Control Coaching Culture: Who You Surrender Your Agency To (E72)
AUDIO FIXED - PART 2 OF 2: In Part 1, Garry Norman was told to erase what he filmed. In Part 2, he and Anne Peterson ask how a culture teaches good people to look away. CONTENT WARNING: This episode discusses psychological and verbal abuse in a workplace and coaching setting, including how a...
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E71 Inside a High-Control Coaching Culture: What One Staffer Saw — and Was Told to Erase (Part 1)
CONTENT WARNING: This episode discusses psychological and verbal abuse in a workplace and coaching setting, including a training exercise involving simulated strangulation, and references to historical assault allegations. If this is difficult territory for you, please take care as you listen…
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E70: Jen Coached People 30 Hours a Week for Free and Called It Integrity — 17 Years Inside Landmark
For seventeen years, Jen Coken was a Landmark seminar leader, coaching people thirty hours a week for free, leading sessions with a 103-degree fever, and calling it integrity. It took her more than a decade after leaving Landmark Worldwide (formerly Landmark Education) to say the word out loud…
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E69 30 Years Inside Transformational Coaching — Then She Started Asking Where the Guardrails Were
For thirty years, Vera Sheranova has stood inside the rooms where "transformation" gets sold. First as a language teacher, then as the person doing live, unrehearsed simultaneous interpretation of a high-stakes leadership course into Russian, with no script and no warning of what the instructors...
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E68: 11 Years Inside a Buddhist Community: A Cult Researcher on Spiritual Abuse and Trauma-Coerced Attachment
A cult researcher spent 11 years inside a Buddhist community, rising to her teacher's inner circle, before a spiritual crisis broke it open. CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains open discussion of spiritual abuse, coercive control and psychological manipulation within a high-control spiritual...
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SPECIAL: Nobody Taught Us How to Keep Our Minds Safe — Until Now
Anne Peterson and Chris Shelton — author of What Now: A Practical Guide to Life After a Cult — are teaming up for a 21-week workshop designed for anyone who has ever found themselves in a group, relationship, or environment that left them confused, smaller, or asking what just happened to me? We...
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E67 She Thought She'd Left. A Panic Attack in Costco Proved She Hadn't. | Susan Stirling
She thought she had left. She had walked away from the church, built a career, created a new life. Then a panic attack in a Costco in the early days of the pandemic stopped her cold — and told her the truth. She had left the building. But the building had never left her. Susan Stirling is the...
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E64 When Blowing the Whistle Gets You Sued: A Landmark Legal Victory
CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains open discussion of psychological harm, coercive control, and alleged physical abuse in an employment context. If you are a survivor of a high-control group or workplace abuse, please read on carefully and take care of yourself as you listen. That might mean...
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SPECIAL: Lost in the Work: How Harmful Programming Rewires the Mind
Children of the Forum is a special series on Confronting the Line, hosted by Lindsey Hartzel, exploring the lasting impact of Large Group Awareness Trainings on young people and those shaped by high-control environments before they had the language to name what was happening to them. This is...
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E63 Cara Cordone | She Tried to Reform the Group That Harmed Her — Here's What She Found
Cara Cordone thought she'd found her people. Then she tried to fix what was broken — and discovered the damage was by design. In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Anne sits down with Cara Cordone — coach, advocate, and host of Fool's Gold: Discernment in the Age of Grift — to trace how a…
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E62 The Slow Burn: The Guru Promises Love. What You Get Instead
What happens when the very tools meant to help us grow are turned against us? In this episode, host Anne sits down with Kellie Rhea — an Australian entrepreneur, former animal behaviorist, and horsemanship expert — who spent nearly two decades inside a personal development organization that…
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E61 Can You Be Manipulated? The Honest Answer Might Surprise You
If you've ever thought "I would never fall for that" — this conversation is for you. Anne sits down with author and researcher Jon Caven-Atack (If Scientology Ruled the World, Opening Our Minds) for a candid, wide-ranging conversation about how smart, well-meaning people end up in high-control...
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SPECIAL: From Landmark Poster Child to Problem: What Happens When You Question the System
Brandon began Landmark programs at just 13 years old and quickly became a success story within the organization. But the deeper he went, the more he began to see things that didn’t line up with the promises of personal and global transformation. And when he started asking questions and raising...
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E60 Is Your Coach Ethical? What You Need to Know Before You Hire One
What Makes Coaching Truly Safe — and When It Crosses the Line Not all coaching is created equal — and knowing the difference could protect you from real harm. In this episode, Anne sits down with Ann Betz, CPCC, PCC, MNTC — neuroscience researcher, master coach trainer, and co-founder of BEabove...
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E59 Prestige, Power & Predators: What the Epstein Case Reveals About Elite Influence
In this episode of Confronting the Line, Anne Peterson and Dr. Ed Gurowitz examine how prestige, proximity, and institutional affiliation can shield harmful behavior. Using the case of Jeffrey Epstein as a reference point, this conversation explores how charismatic figures embed themselves within...
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Special: Children of the Forum - Abandoned for Transformation: How I Lost My Mom to Landmark
As part of Confronting the Line’s ongoing examination of how high-control personal development spaces impact real lives, this special series turns our focus to those who entered Landmark and similar LGAT environments as children—before they were old enough to consent, question, or fully…
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E58 Identity Before Consent: Lindsey Hartzel on Growing Up in Landmark
What happens when transformational programs reach people before they’re old enough to consent? In this episode Anne formally introduces Lindsey Hartzel, who will be hosting a special series examining the impact of LGATs on children and teens. Lindsey shares her own story of growing up inside...
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E57 | When Institutions Respond—but Don’t Reckon | A Follow-Up with Ben Eisenberg
What happens after someone speaks out—and an institution responds? In this follow-up episode of Confronting the Line, we examine how organizations act when concerns are raised without acknowledging harm. After Ben Eisenberg shared his experience of growing up inside Landmark Worldwide, Landmark’s...
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E56 When Dissent Triggers Disinformation
In this episode of Confronting the Line, Anne Peterson is joined by her friend and colleague Chris Shelton—former Scientologist and long-time advocate for people recovering from high-control groups. Together, they unpack a recent online incident involving a Landmark supporter posting what…
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E55 Growing Up in Landmark Worldwide: When Transformation Crosses a Developmental Line
This episode examines the developmental and ethical boundaries of youth participation in transformational programs like Landmark Worldwide. Writer and strategist Ben Eisenberg shares what it means to grow up inside a high-control self-help framework before meaningful consent is possible. Ben’s…
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E54 When Self-Help Turns Harmful: The ‘Choice’ Narrative and Trauma
On this episode of Confronting the Line, we examine some common myths the self-help industry often tries to sell: “Trauma is a choice.” “Healing is a choice.” “You can choose differently.” These ideas sound empowering on the surface—until they devolve to shame, blame, or silence for people who…
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E53 Gay and Christian: Confronting Shame, Conformity, and the Line Between Faith and Fear
Anne Peterson welcomes Ken Wortley, a former pastor and author of the memoir The Gospel of Secrets, to Confronting the Line. Our show explores how groups—from spiritual to personal development—can cross the boundary from providing help to inflicting harm and exploitation. Ken shares his deeply...
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E52 An Emotional Blueprint: Exploring the R.E.M. Model and Self-Help Abuse with Brian Arbor (Part 2)
In this follow-up conversation, Anne Peterson and former Landmark Worldwide Headquarters Staffer Brian Arbor go deeper into the emotional and moral mechanics of high-control transformation environments. Building on Part One, they unpack how Chris Shelton’s R.E.M. Model (Rationalization, Emotion,...
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E51 Thoughts on Landmark, Trauma & Moral Injury: A Follow up Conversation with Brian Arbor (Part 1)
In this follow-up conversation, Anne Peterson and former Landmark staff member Brian Arbor take an unflinching look at what happens when transformational ideals collide with organizational control. ⚠️ Content Note: This episode includes discussion of psychological harm, trauma, and moral injury....
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E50 Beyond the Guru: Building a Safer Self-Help Community w/ the folks at SEEKSafely.org
In this episode, I am joined by Dr. Glenn Doyle, SEEK Safely Board President, and Jean Brown, manager and board member of SEEK, to discuss several upcoming events and programs we are launching in the coming months. SEEK Safely was born in response to the tragedy that took three people's lives,...
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E49 Chris Shelton: The REM Model: Rationalization, Emotion & Morals in Cult Influence (and Recovery)
In Part 2 of Confronting the Line conversation with Chris Shelton he unveils his REM Model—a practical lens for understanding how we get pulled into (and out of) coercive systems. We map the three interacting layers that drive human behavior: ** Rationalization: the stories we tell ourselves…
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E48 Chris Shelton Pt.1 — From Scientology Survivor to the REM Model: Victimhood, Responsibility & Waking Up
In Part 1, Anne sits down with cult-education creator Chris Shelton to trace the lived experiences that shaped his forthcoming REM Model. Chris shares his journey growing up in Scientology, signing the Sea Org’s “billion-year” contract, and enduring systemic abuse, forced “volunteer” labor, and...
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E47 The Fine Line: Leadership, Power, and Transformation with Ed Gurowitz
Anne with author and transformational expert Ed Gurowitz dive into the fine line between empowerment and exploitation in personal development. Together they explore how transformational tools can be misused, why organizations drift into control and coercion, and what it takes to build safe…
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E45 The Psychology of Control: Werner Erhard, L. Ron Hubbard & High-Control Leadership w/ Jon Atack
In Part Two of this in-depth conversation, Anne continues her dialogue with influence expert and author Jon Atack, diving deeper into the psychology of coercive influence and the nature of high-control groups.Drawing from their personal experiences with Landmark Worldwide (Anne) and Scientology...
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Is it or isn't it?
“It’s not a cult.” 🚨 If you have to keep saying it… it probably is. Kyla, a former Landmark staff member, shares what it was really like behind the polished promises of “transformation.” Watch the full episode for the FULL story. #ConfrontingTheLine #CultRecovery #SelfHelpExposed #WorkplaceJustice
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The Tale of Two Faces
What you see on stage isn’t always what happens behind the scenes. Former staff of popular self-help seminar organization share how there were always two stories: the shiny public one, and the painful private one. #ConfrontingTheLine #WorkplaceAbuse #LaborDayTruth #SelfHelpExposed
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💔 Behind the “transformation” curtain 💔
Jennifer shares how staff were overworked, underpaid, and shamed — all in the name of “changing lives.” #WorkplaceAbuse #ConfrontingTheLine
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E44 Confronting the Line between LOVE and LOVE BOMBING w/ Rachel Bernstein
In this nuanced and engaging conversation, Anne with therapist and cult expert Rachel Bernstein unpack the concept of love bombing, distinguishing it from genuine expressions of affection or appreciation. They define love bombing as a calculated tactic designed to fast-track loyalty, create...
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Labor Day Special: Former Landmark Staff Speak Out on Exploitation & Abuse in the Name of ‘Transformation’
This Labor Day, Confronting the Line shines a light on the hidden labor behind “transformation.” Anne sits down with Tony, Jennifer, and Kyla—former Landmark Worldwide staff members from Los Angeles and Newport Beach—to share what it was really like to work inside one of the most well-known...
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E43 A Conversation with Rachel Bernstein: When Does Inquiry Become Indoctrination?
In this thoughtful and revealing dialogue, Anne Peterson and Rachel Bernstein, noted therapist, podcaster and cult education expert, delve into the mechanics of indoctrination, especially in the context of self-help and transformational organizations like Landmark. They explore how indoctrination...
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E42 Behind the Curtain: ISTA, Accountability, and Speaking Out w/ Dave Booda
In this candid conversation, Anne and guest Dave Booda explore the dynamics of ISTA, a school focused on sexuality and personal development, and the challenges faced by individuals within such organizations. Dave, a musician and retreat facilitator, describes how he helped create a volunteer…
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E41 Landmark, Scientology, and Society's Tolerance for Exploitation w/ Jon Atack
In this initial conversation with author and podcaster John Atak, we explore the complex nature of cult-like organizations, referencing his almost 40 years of research and experience alongside my experience in Landmark, a group rooted in Werner Erhard’s controversial teachings. We discussed how...
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E40 Transformation: From Potential to Practice with Ed Gurowitz
In this conversation, resident expert and author on transformational methodologies, Ed Gurowitz, and I explore the nuances of transformation methodologies, the distinction between technology and methodology, and the complexities surrounding the concept of responsibility. We discuss his recent…
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E39 The Dangers of Formulaic Therapy or Self-Help: A Conversation with Rachel Bernstein
In this conversation, Anne is joined by Rachel Bernstein, LMFT, MSEd, Podcaster, and Cult Education Expert, to explore the complexities of healing and recovery, particularly in relation to high control groups, exploitative employers and abusive partners. They discuss the manipulative use of...
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E38 Misuse and abuse of good ideas in high control groups w/ coercive control expert Chris Shelton
In this episode, Anne and fellow deconstructionist Chris Shelton delve into the dynamics of high-control groups and gurus. They explore how language, choice, and context can play crucial roles in manipulation and personal experiences. They discuss the dangers of the distortions of everyday…
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E37 From Landmark Insider to Outsider: Brandon Hurst on his Journey of Healing
In this conversation, Brandon Hurst discusses his journey from initial involvement with Landmark Worldwide at a VERY young age and leaving high school early to become a Staff member by the age18! He shares his experiences of the emotional manipulation, high-control dynamics, and pressures...
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E36 Can You Transform Trauma? A Hard Truth About Healing PTSD w/ Brian Arbor PT2
In part two of their conversation, Anne and Brian Arbor delve into the complexities of trauma and PTSD. They explore the efficacy of personal development in addressing PTSD and emphasize the importance of healing rather than merely transforming trauma. Brian shares his personal experiences with...
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E35 Transformational Tools & Trauma: Brian Arbor on War, PTSD, and Landmark
In this conversation we invited former Landmark Staffer and Army combat veteran Brian Arbor to delve into the complex interplay between personal transformational tools and the toughest of living circumstances, deployment to an active war zone. We explore Brian's journey through PTSD recovery, his...
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E34 What They Don’t Tell You About Transformation w/ Dr John Hunter & Ed Gurowitz
In this conversation I (Anne) invited Dr. John Hunter and Dr. Ed Gurowitz to delve into the complexities of transformational methodologies, particularly focusing on large group awareness trainings (LGATs). We discussed the potential benefits and risks associated with these methodologies, the...
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E33 Help or Harm? The Fine Line in Coaching & Transformation w/ Ann Betz
In this episode we meet up with Ann Betz, Co-founder of BEabove Leadership and an expert on the intersection of neuroscience, coaching, trauma and human transformation. Ann speaks, trains and coaches internationally, and writes about neuroscience and coaching as well as relational trauma. TRIGGER...
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E32 Wait - Am I Running a Cult?! Pyramid Schemes & Exploitation in Coaching w/ Publisher Angela Kingdon
I LOVED this conversation with my book publisher Angela Kingdon. On this one year anniversary of writing my first book Is This A Cult? Angela and I explore the complex dynamics of personal transformation, the fine line between empowerment and exploitation, and the impact of cult-like structures…
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ABOUT THIS SHOW
We are here to explore the world of personal development, and examine the often blurry line between transformation and exploitation. We are dedicated to finding that line, then looking, listening and learning in service of safer seeking for life long learners, like us.
HOSTED BY
Anne L. Peterson
CATEGORIES
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Frequently Asked Questions
How many episodes does Confronting The Line have?
Confronting The Line currently has 70 episodes available on PodParley. New episodes are automatically indexed when they're published to the podcast feed.
What is Confronting The Line about?
We are here to explore the world of personal development, and examine the often blurry line between transformation and exploitation. We are dedicated to finding that line, then looking, listening and learning in service of safer seeking for life long learners, like us.
How often does Confronting The Line release new episodes?
Confronting The Line has 70 episodes. Check the episode list to see recent publication dates and frequency.
Where can I listen to Confronting The Line?
You can listen to Confronting The Line on PodParley by clicking any episode. We provide an embedded audio player for direct listening, and you can also subscribe via your preferred podcast app using the RSS feed.
Who hosts Confronting The Line?
Confronting The Line is created and hosted by Anne L. Peterson.
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