Faith is Not Blind

Kristine: Personal Faith Crisis Survivor Who Is Now Thriving After being raised in an orthodox home where questions about faith were not encouraged, Kristine had to learn to revise her belief-system when she received an unexpected and unorthodox answer to a prayer. Kristine had grown up in a world with black and white thinking and had to learn to overcome her certainty in order to start to see nuances in her life and in her belief system. She talks about how her husband’s willingness to try and and understand her helped her survive her faith crisis, especially when other loved ones reacted with fear and criticism. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “The Lord thus asks us to ‘be believing,’ but for reasons intended to encourage our absolutely essential participation. He won’t make the case for belief irresistible. He can’t control whether we voluntarily choose to believe Him, to receive Him, to seek after Him. He can only offer us His hand, and if we elect to take it, then He can guide us. . . He is so close, so available to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, He is so close to whose faith is not blind.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 10, “Choosing to Believe” p. 88) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. We’re really glad you’re here with us. I am especially glad to have my good friend Kristine Anderson with us today. She’s here to talk about some really important things that she’s gone through personally.  I think every testimony is personal and every testimony has an important narrative.  So to begin your narrative, if you would please talk about the foundations of your testimony and your family and how that affected your belief system. Kristine:  Sure. I grew up in Southeast Idaho in a big family–7 kids. My dad worked in sports. I think it was a very stereotypical type of Mormon upbringing–very active and the type of family where we attended every meeting and event. We never had any questions discussed at home. Everything was accepted without question. There were religious books in our home, but they were all from Deseret Book or from General Authorities. They were all from, I guess you could say, accepted, safe avenues. I grew up seeing my parents have faith. They believed deeply. They practiced their faith everyday. I think growing up, they were also very conservative and I think I was exposed to a lot of–let’s say I think my viewpoints may have been influenced by how much Rush Limbaugh I heard. And then combine that with some things that I heard from Church to create one type of truth. I know that not everyone in my family grew up with the same type of black and white thinking that I did. I also think my personality is a little bit more–let’s just say I was the only one in the family who would lecture everybody else on what they were doing right and wrong. I was called the “tattler” of the family. One of my nicknames was Mother Teresa because they said, “Well she never does anything wrong.”  So I think part of my lenses that I grew up with were part just who I was and how I absorbed “truth,” and also what I did hear around me. And so it was my home environment.  Leaders at church and the combination of just the type of person that I was. Faith Is Not Blind: Interesting. You could start that narrative–like you said–you could look at that as a stereotypical LDS story. In some ways it is a stereotype to be sure and very normal and very mainstream, and a lot of people might say, “Well, that’s great. That’s healthy. That’s a very healthy way of approaching life and a very healthy way of approaching your relationship with God. But what happened to make you feel like maybe that wasn’t healthy, especially as you were feeling sort of superior and like, “This certainty is giving me a lot of comfort.” Kristine: Yes. I embraced certainty because I thrived in it. Faith Is Not Blind: And I think it’s easy to thrive in certainty because it’s so simple. Kristine: And as my life progressed, sometimes God just put things in my path or just life happened. I attended college and got married and probably my first encounter with the gap between ideal and the real is when I got married and I couldn’t have children. And when you grow up thinking that the only purpose and role of women is to be mothers, that’s something to grapple with. And since at that time Sheri Dew was talking about how all women are mothers, that’s something I clung to for maybe the next 10 to 12 years of my life. We had a child through IVF, we did 5 years of foster care, we had an adoption that fell through, we did other medical interventions. It just seemed like almost everything in my life for the next 10 to 12 years was just attempting to be a mother. And we moved to Virginia at that point and I just told my husband, “I’m just exhausted emotionally, physically, psychologically–everything I’ve been trying to do to ‘be motherhood.’ I need a break.” Financially I needed to get a job. I said, “Just give me some time to think and rest and then we’ll hop back in.”  I think I had the most cognitive dissonance in my life when I started working full-time and I had a seven-year-old daughter and I was a working mother, which I thought should never happen–that’s not the right choice to make. And I felt the most peace come into my life.  I had this overwhelming feeling of peace and happiness. My family found a rhythm that we all enjoyed and there was so much happiness. And I was confused. And we were living in Virginia and I wasn’t able to reconcile it. I didn’t know what it meant. And I went to the temple and I had just been thinking about it and praying about it and, as I was sitting in the temple, I felt like got the answer to my questions. I got an answer to my prayer that said, “I didn’t send you here to fill a role. I sent you here to build my kingdom.”  And that didn’t make sense to me because I only understood women through roles. It feels like I rushed home, but there was a 5-hour journey home. And I feel like I went straight to the living room and got out the Teaching the Living Prophets manual and I broke it open and I read pages and pages about the role of women and mothers and things the prophets had said in the past about how women shouldn’t be working outside the home. And I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what it meant. I said, “How could I have an answer that doesn’t match what I’ve been taught or told my whole life?” It took me a while to wrestle with that. That was about the time I think that blogs were big and I started reading a blog and there was a post about a father that felt like he didn’t want to be a provider in the home. He wanted to have an egalitarian, equal partnership. And I started being introduced to questions I hadn’t thought of before and Church History that I’d never heard before. I felt unmoored. And amidst all of this I finally just decided to trust my personal inspiration even if it didn’t match what I understood the authoritative answer to be. I think that was a very significant moment in my life where I claimed spiritual authority for myself. Up to that point I probably handed spiritual authority to others. Faith Is Not Blind: I think what’s so interesting about that experience, especially as we talk about binary thinking, is to say, “I felt like the authority figures were telling me one thing and yet God was telling me another.” Did it help you to recognize the authority that came from God? Did that help you get through it?  Because you said you recognized it as a spiritual experience. Did that help you and, if so, how did it help you get by saying, “Maybe my personal story is going to develop with the help of God rather than what I’ve always thought.” Kristine: That was exactly the linchpin. Because my prompting into questions came from a spiritual experience with God, I think I may have had an anchor that other people may not have had. I felt like how could I throw out everything when the first thing that gave me a question was a personal experience where God was speaking to me. Faith Is Not Blind: I think that would understandably be an Impulse to get rid of everything in order to have certainty. Then you wouldn’t have  to grapple with it. As you were  grappling with it, what helped you continue to grapple rather than give up?  What helped you stay connected to God? Kristine:  I would say that I  fell into a deep hole of questions–a faith crisis–a certainty crisis. It probably lasted several years of searching and reading and learning–of trying to find my bearings again. And at a certain point you get tired. And I was at the bottom of the hole–which I never thought I would get to. But I think that it’s common to just start to question everything and feel like, well, none of it is real. And a quick answer came that said, “Well then all that matters–regardless of whether any of this is real or not–all that matters is how we treat each other.”  And I climbed onto that. And then the next step I went back because it felt like everything had kind of fallen apart and I had to come to a personal conclusion that I wanted to rebuild. I think that part of that was because of my spiritual experiences in the past. But I have to make a clarification. I came to distrust all of my warm fuzzy spiritual experiences because in that spiral I remembered that growing up I would feel those feelings when I would watch an inspiring movie. I would feel his feelings when I was at an Amway convention with my parents. And I had to grapple with the fact that those emotional feelings may be confirmation bias, they may be emotions, and they may be the Spirit. So I wanted to find a different way to feel. I felt like I had to rebuild without relying on those warm fuzzy experiences. Faith Is Not Blind: And maybe that’s because your experience with certainty before had come from those experiences. So the fact that you wanted to find a way to find belief in a different way makes sense. And is certainly praiseworthy. As you were going through this–and I think it’s important for other people to understand as they watch someone they love go through this–how did you learn to avoid the same binaries that might have caused some of the trouble in the first place?  And I don’t even know that it’s fair to call it trouble because it is such a good healthy thing in so many ways. Kristine: I would never want to go back and not have my experience. Faith Is Not Blind: I’m so glad you feel that way. I think it’s important to see it that way. But were there times when it was more difficult when the people you loved were trying to push you back into certainty? And if so, what was more helpful for you–especially for people who are wondering, “If I have a loved one going through this, how do I help them?” What was helpful for you? And what was maybe not so helpful for you with other people’s reactions? Kristine: The main response I got from family came from fear.  A lot of my questions or a lot of my beliefs seemed to match people who had left. And they were afraid I was going to be an empty chair at their “Celestial Kingdom table.” And I knew it and I felt it and I felt rejected and I didn’t feel trusted. And I didn’t feel loved. And it was harmful. The more that I got of that, I think the harder it was for me to stay. I think one of my lifelines was my husband who started a little nervous. When it all started he was very nervous. But it came to a point where he sought to understand and he didn’t need to agree. There were times I really wanted him to agree and to see things the way I did but, we never forced each other or put pressure on each other to be where the other one wanted to be to the  point where it created conflict. And while he was trying understand, the fact that he tried to and the fact that he said I will love you anyway helped. And he said, “I didn’t fall in love with you because of your belief in blank.” And I felt safe and I felt like everything would be okay no matter what happened. Faith Is Not Blind: I love that. Because I think safety doesn’t always come in certainty. I think safety comes through love. You remind me of the scripture that says, “Perfect love casteth out fear.” Kristine: Actually I think it’s a terrifying feeling to lose every foundation of how you see yourself in the world, and that provided the temporary space that I needed that allowed me to find space to rebuild to say, “I want to live a life of faith. And what do I do now? How do I do this?” And I looked around and I said, “Well, who are the people that know the things that I want to know and still make it work?” And I looked at the work of Mormon Historians and academics and even some people who have experienced a faith crisis outside of the Mormon Church in their own faith. There are many. There’s one in particular that is a very good example of how things can be deconstructed without losing Jesus. And I still just desperately love Jesus. I love Jesus. I Love The Gospel of Jesus. And that became my new foundation as I rebuilt. I realize that I may have had some of my foundation built on a belief in infallible prophets and some other things that I found out that were not as steady as I thought and maybe I felt let down by.  So that’s where I started my rebuilding.  And even if it’s wrong–like I had to there was still amidst my rebuilding of Jesus and God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I am still giving myself space to be wrong, I may be wrong about Jesus. There was a moment where I was seeking sources of people who are making it work and there was one that explained how belief is not faith and that if you conflate two,once you lose belief, you lose your faith. And as I was searching I tried to ask, “Well, what do I believe then?” There’s a lot of angst when you’re in the midst of so much information and you’re trying to figure out what you believe.  I gave myself space to say some days I’m going to feel like seeing Shall the Youth of Zion Falter from my rooftop and other days I may feel angry and  want to burn everything down andI  may not believe any of it. And that’s okay because I’m not sure that anyone knows all of the spirituality and everything about God. I’m not sure that any human who ever lived knows all things. We all see “through a glass darkly.”  But if I allow myself some flexibility on belief, it allows me to engage in a deep life of faith. I can trust my Heavenly Father. I can have hope that it’s true. And through my actions–how I can love others and how I live is how I engage with my faith. Faith Is Not Blind:  I love that. It’s interesting that being able to recognize that gray area brought you more clarity with your relationship with God, which seems counterintuitive, but is so beautiful because he wants us to come to know him through our experiences, both good and bad. And from where you are now, I like that you can admit that it’s still difficult and they’re still that tension or still hard days. Kristine: And sometimes I see people who have those hard days and it breaks them and they leave, Or they have a hard month. I’m just not sure if I’ll ever be sure again, but I know that I find beauty here. I know that I love practicing. I know that I love God. And I know that I’m a better person when I do. Faith is Not Blind: As you look back on where you’ve come from, when you see people who do think in binaries or maybe see people who don’t understand why you don’t anymore, what has helped you develop charity for them or helped you to understand them better? Have you had experiences where you realize it’s not helpful to judge them any more than you used to judge other people? Kristine: Right. It was very difficult because sometimes how other people live their binaries can hurt you. Or you feel like you were hurt by binaries growing up and so you want to make sure that no one else is using binaries that will hurt if you can help. It can be difficult when you’re in a place where a lot of people think in binaries and they see your faith is lesser. I was with a group of women one time at this Retreat, and one of them is a therapist and she came over and she talked about how we need to love all versions of our past self. And she said that sometimes the difficulty that we have with others is actually the difficulty that we have with our past selves. And I saw that the difficulty that I was having with others was because I was not loving my past self–that I was judging who she was and how she went through the world and saw things and judged others and how it was wrong and bad. And when I came to have charity for my past self and to love her and to be grateful that she was part of who I became–that I needed her–it was so much easier to love others who were in that same space. You have to forgive yourself for things that you might have done that were damaging to others because you didn’t know better. And when you see that you were doing the best you could with what you had, you know that others are doing the best they can with what they have. That was also an important moment in my process. Faith Is Not Blind: As you think about that somewhat painful process that you appreciate as transformative, as sanctifying– knowing what you know now, what would you tell yourself? You talked about that deep dark hole. If you could go back and talk to yourself,  what would you say to yourself at that point to give you hope? Kristine: Oh. That there’s a space on the other side that you can find and that you can work for. If you want to, you can get to the other side. If you want to get to the other side, I feel like you have to have a desire and that you have to work really hard to find it. It’s a type of engagement that with faith and with God and with others is deeper than anything that you’ve experienced before. That you’ll find more love and safety than you think is possible. And even as you continue in uncertainty, you can stay in uncertainty and find safety and faith. You don’t have to choose one or the other or be certain that it’s all true or be certain that it’s all false. Faith Is Not Blind: Going back to one of the things  that caused you to question your value as a woman, it’s so interesting that you found value not through womanhood, but through your relationship with God. Kristine: Yes. Faith Is Not Blind: I love that you found that value. And I love your story and I love you. Thank you so much for sharing. Kristine: Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here. The post Kristine: Personal Faith Crisis Survivor Who Is Now Thriving first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Ben: Openly Gay and Openly Faithful Ben shares his captivating story about his experience of being an openly gay, active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Through his experience of coming out to his family, he learned the astonishing value of unconditional love as his family allowed him to make his own choices without judgement. Ben also learned to wrestle with uncertainty as he weighed his options and ultimately decided to remain active in the Church. He offers unique counsel for gay members, family members, and for ward members. Further reading from Faith Is Not Blind: “Still, even if yielding to such transforming experiences is necessarily a leap of faith, we can’t go there until we’ve walked as far as the light of our search for knowledge allows. And a lifetime of trying to make sense of mortality, especially on the days when it may not seem to make much sense, can give us the experience we need to appreciate the value of our sanctification.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 7, “Beyond Balance,” p. 57) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: I’m here today with Ben. Welcome. Ben: Happy to be here. Faith Is Not Blind: Thanks for being here. I’m wondering if you would take a minute and just introduce yourself a little bit. Ben: I was born and raised in the church. My parents are both converts in the Seattle area. They joined the church year after they got married on the same day. And they have often argued about who got baptized first that day, but we’re pretty sure it was my mom. I’m the youngest of four. Happy, active, raised in the church. I served a mission in Chihuahua, Mexico when I was 19. I have three degrees from BYU–I call them my three degrees of glory. I have a PhD from the University of Arizona. I just recently became a therapist. I have a masters in social work now. Faith Is Not Blind: You talked about your parents’ conversion, but tell us about your conversion to the church.  I know you were born into a family of members, but how does your conversion happen? Ben: When you’re raised in the Church, it’s the thing you do. You go to church, you read scriptures–this is just what you do. The first time I thought I knew that the church was true was when I was at a youth conference. I was 14 years old.  I had a good time that weekend and then we had a testimony meeting with my peers. I remember listening to peers sharing their testimonies of the Savior and I had a feeling like a warm blanket was wrapped around me. I felt like the physical presence of God almost. I just knew it was true and as we were walking out of the building that day and walking across this field, I was just thinking, “How can I ever go back to playing video games or watch TV again?” God lives and he was real and that this was his church. Faith Is Not Blind: Now that moment carried you through to your mission in Mexico? Ben: I was so excited to serve a mission. I just wanted to find the version of my parents in Mexico. The Gospel just meant  so much to me and I wanted to share that with others. Faith Is Not Blind: You wanted to share that joy you experienced at youth conference with other people, which is just fantastic. Ben: Exactly Faith Is Not Blind: What often happens on our path of discipleship is that there are difficulties that crop up. So what for you has been a complexity that you’ve had to deal with in your life? Ben: The biggest thing has been my sexuality.  I first knew I was gay when I was in sixth grade and I first realized that I was attracted to other boys, And this was back in the 90’s when it wasn’t okay to be gay in society. So I didn’t want to be gay and I wasn’t gay and I hated having these feelings. But they didn’t trouble me a ton because I was going to go on my mission and that would fix me. People talked about making a deal with God and he would fix me, but I didn’t feel like I had to do that. I just felt like God would fix me. And it wasn’t until after my mission when I was 21 was the first time that I ever called myself gay. I had been home for around 3 days and was in my parents rec room watching a TV show with an attractive man on it and I remember feeling attracted to him and realizing those feelings were still there and thinking, “Oh my gosh. That didn’t work.” I remember praying that day and staying for the first time, “Heavenly Father, I think I’m gay and I don’t want to be.” And that started two years of my life where I very, very carefully went to the temple everyday and prayed regularly and fasted to to have these feelings go away. Faith Is Not Blind: You know you’re at your home off your mission for 3 days and you have that experience with the TV. I just can’t imagine how that would feel because there you are thinking, “I’ve done all of these things. I’ve finished my mission now everything should be the way that I want it to be.” And then you realize it’s not. So what did it feel like in that moment? I would imagine you felt betrayed? Ben: Yeah, the word “betrayal” might be a little stronger than how I felt. Maybe just disappointed. But I had no concept that my feelings of same-sex attraction weren’t going to change. I knew that they were going to go away. I just had to make sure that I did the right thing so they would go away. I tried to be like Nephi and he said, “If you go and do God will prepare the way.” So I did the very best I could to be straight. There were a couple semesters at my time at BYU where I decided to go on a date with a different woman every week. I have been on 27 blind dates and I’ve been out with probably a hundred unique women. I’ve spent  thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours trying to get married. So it wasn’t until I’ve been home for two years and I’ve been dating like crazy and praying and fasting and going to the temple and doing what we used to call Home Teaching and, you know, all those things that things didn’t change. And I realized this isn’t going to go away. That’s when I finally started to think about, “How am I supposed to live my life as a gay person?” Because the only way I thought I could live was as a straight person. I thought, “That’s what that’s what was going to happen.” So there’s this point when you realize, “Okay, this isn’t going to go away.”  I have to figure out how to live now. I still have this testimony that I feel that I’ve had ever since I was young that I’ve nurtured and yet I have to figure out how do I do this as a gay person. Where do you take it from there? So at this point in my life I hated my sexuality so much. I felt so much shame. There was an interview that came out with Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman around that time that I read and I just devoured all those words and what I think they said was that feeling the same sex attraction didn’t exist in the next life. And I thought, “I want to get rid of these feeling so bad I just wish I could die.”  And I have never been suicidal, but there were there were times I thought I would just be so great to just have cancer then I could die a hero and I wouldn’t have to deal with this. It was a dark time for me–really dark. And then when I’ve been home for about 2 years one of my friends from my ward just randomly stopped by our apartment and announced to the whole apartment that one of her friends had just come out to her at dinner. Now at this point it hadn’t occurred to me that there were other gay students at BYU. I thought I was the only one. I had to do this delicate dance of trying to get information from her because I was so intrigued, but not be curious enough that would think I was gay. I found out there were gay BYU students who wrote Anonymous blogs about their experiences, so as soon as she left I found about a dozen. And it was so good to hear other people going through my same experience. It was so healing to know that I wasn’t alone. But then almost all of the blogs said “I’m in the church and  I’m going to stay that way. I’m going to be faithful.” And then by the end almost all of them ended with them leaving the church. And I wondered if that was going to be my story too. That was going to happen to me too. And I’m really scared. I thought, “If I stay in the church and I’m going to be lonely and sad for the rest of my life. If I leave the church, if I have a same-sex partner, I have to leave behind these gospel teaching that I love.” Both choices just felt too hard to make work. Faith Is Not Blind: That’s incredible, just that image. There’s this fork in the road and you feel like you’ve got to go one way or the other. And then both ways have with them some type of fulfillment, but they also have something that has to go away–something that you love. So how did you deal with that fork in the road? Ben: I remember one night when I allowed my mind to wander, lying on the grass and telling my Heavenly Father that if he needed me to be lonely and sad for the next 60 years I was going to do that to show him that I could be faithful. I got up from my knees not feeling any better, and I ran over to my scriptures and randomly turned to Alma 40 verse 8. There’s this line that says, “Time is measured only to man” And I thought, “I just told God I could do that. I guess I’ll be really lonely and sad for 60 years.” And I thought that was my answer. I was just going to have to be miserable for the rest of my life and then I would die and then I could be happy. And I got the point I just couldn’t do it on my own anymore. And one day my best friend from high school called me and invited me to go to walk with him, which is something we’ve never done. And I asked my roommate Craig, who was my best friend at the time time if he wanted to go on this walk and he agreed. And so we are walking through Kiwanis Park in East Provo and I just knew I had to tell them and I start to get so nervous I thought I was going to vomit. I felt physically ill like the thought of telling this awful thing. I finally got the courage and they asked me to sit on the grass and I told that for as long as I can remember I’ve been more attracted to men than women (because that was easier to digest than “I’m gay”).  And they both respond with love and kindness. And I remember saying to Craig, “I understand if you don’t want to be my roommate anymore” and he said, “Why wouldn’t I want to be your roommate? You’re the same person you’ve always been.” It was healing knowing that if people knew this thing I thought was so awful and gross and terrible about me and that they were still treating me the same. Faith Is Not Blind: So you have that moment there your roommate. How did coming out to loved ones and others go? How did the rest of that sort of talk to other people go? Ben: I’ve come out to hundreds of people including on my blog. So if you know two things about me know that a Latter-day Saint and that I’m gay. It’s almost always been a really wonderful experience. Almost every time the conversation turns to my testimony of the Savior and of the restoration and because of that I found that my sexuality becomes the main vehicle through which I bear my testimony. So it’s become a really marvelous experience for me. The hardest time for coming out to people who are no longer active in the church or who aren’t members. Most my family aren’t members of the church, and they were kind of confused like, “Well, l just be gay.” And so with half of the people in my life I have to explain to them how it’s okay that I’m gay and to the other half my life I have to tell him that it’s okay that I’m a Latter-day Saint. Faith Is Not Blind: So there’s that tension there, that you’re gay and then that you have this testimony–that tension still exists. I’m interested in how it’s continued through your life. How has your family responded–your immediate maybe your extended family? Ben: I came out to my two best friends in the summer of 2007 and I told my parents that Thanksgiving. I had no doubt that they were going to love me and care about me. I could have come home with tattoos and a beer in my hand and a husband and they would have just welcomed me. And they responded exactly as I would have expected. They were so loving and kind and my mom just told me she loved me. She asked me if it was a phase I said I hope so. And my dad said, “Well, you’re probably better off being single. Being married is hard. Typical Dad. My parents really wanted me to get to work to overcome it, which is what I wanted to do. So about once a year my dad would say, “So how’s that whole same-sex attraction thing going?” And I would say, “Good.” And my Mom would say, “We love you.”  And that was about it. And they tried to have conversations about it. I just didn’t want to. And then when I was 30–so five years ago–I just I wasn’t sure I could stay in the church. I just felt like I was trapped. I just couldn’t do it anymore. And I opened up my parents kind of unloaded 30 years of experience on them. And my mom said to me–the most faithful woman you could find–she said, “Ben, if you need to leave the church and marry a man, you and he will always be part of our family. And so by honoring my agency and telling me that no matter what I did I was going to be her son, that gave me the freedom to know if I should go or should I stay. Because before I felt trapped–I felt I had to stay. But then as I got to explore that on my own and reconcile my will with God’s Will, I pointed myself to Christ and then I felt pointed to his church. Interestingly, I had the same conversation with my siblings. And they said, “If you leave the church, you will always be welcome in our home.” And that did so much good for me because that’s not that reaction that a lot of people get. Faith Is Not Blind: Let me ask you some questions about that process, about your experience. Looking back at your life, what’s a piece of advice you would give to a Latter-day Saint who is struggling with same-sex attraction? Ben: Your values and your behaviors have to be in alignment. If you have certain values, not living up to those, you are not going to be happy. It was not my job to prescribe any one’s values for them, but your values and your behaviors have to be the same if you want to thrive in life. That’s something I often share. I made some decisions based on fear and we need to make decisions based on faith. I just made some decisions based on fear and I encourage people to make decisions based on faith. The other thing I would say is, “Don’t focus on outcomes. Focus on faith.” Because I thought I had to be married to be happy. I thought I had a family to be happy. I thought I had to do X Y and Z to be happy in life. Don’t focus on outcomes. If you had told me ten years ago that I’d be living the life that I’m living now and I would love it, I would have thought you were crazy. And God can see so much more than we can see. There are two scriptures I’d like to share. One of them is 1 Corinthians 2:9 and it roughly says, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared  for them that love him. “ and Doctrine and Covenants 58: 3 that says, “Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation.”  I used to try and  I envisioned what my life was going to be like and I just learned that you know I can’t do that.  I don’t know what it will look like when I’m 45 or 55 or 65 or 75 or however long I’m able to live. But what I do know is that if I focus on staying connected to heaven and receiving inspiration that my life is going to be amazing. Faith Is Not Blind: Yeah, and it’s that interesting distinction between faith and outcomes, that  those aren’t the same thing. Then in the end it in some ways goes back to what you experienced as an adolescent–that feeling of I don’t like how I’m feeling I don’t  like this but if I keep doing the right thing I’ll get that outcome. It sounds like what you’re talking about now is the outcome that matters to some extent, but it’s not what I focus on. I I focus on my relationship with God and in making sure those things are aligned which is wonderful. That’s fantastic advice for those who are going through this experience. What advice would you give to the parents, siblings, and friends of Latter-day Saints who are same-sex attracted? Ben: There’s so much advice I could give. The main thing I would say is to be “proximate.” This is an idea I got from Bryan Stevenson who wrote a great book. He talks about being close to people who are different and we need to get close to people who have different experiences. So if you have a gay loved one in your life, you need to really dig into that experience and really sit with them and be with them in those experiences. If you have a gay loved one, talk with them in a humble way and ask them, “What’s it like for you to experience same-sex attraction? What’s it like to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender?”  And ask, “How can I help you?”  I would also ask, “You use this label of same-sex attraction or gay, lesbian, bisexual. What do those labels mean to you?”  I would ask, “Is there anything you want to talk about more?” Because when I first came out, I had so many things I had been holding in for 23 years or so and I didn’t want it to be awkward every time I brought it up. I appreciated it when people said things like, “Thank you for sharing that last week. What else did you want to say that you haven’t had the chance to say before?”  Them just opening up dialogue was so healing for me because then I didn’t always have to do it. Faith Is Not Blind: It sounds like from your experience that one of the central feelings you felt was isolation. And you mentioned shame before. Ben: Definitely. Right. Faith Is Not Blind: You mentioned before that isolating feeling and feeling of shame when you weren’t sure how your roommates were going to respond. In that story when you told your roommate, “If you don’t want to be roommates with me anymore.” And then to have someone who’s willing to listen. I just think that’s good, I think, for all of us to be aware of. I love the idea of proximity. That’s important in all the relationships you have with people, but I think especially those that feel isolated. Ben: President Ballard gave a BYU devotional in November 2017 where he said we need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing and we really do a much better job of listening and understanding. There have been times I’ve met people where they decide to preach to me and tell me things. You know, it always comes from a good place. But the idea that “you know I’ve been thinking of is my entire life” can come off as really trite. But those people to really sit down and ask me questions, those have been the most holy experiences for me. Faith is Not Blind: For family members and and young Latter-Day Saints who are struggling with same-sex attraction or for priesthood leaders and other people in a ward structure–maybe the young men’s presidency and young women’s presidency–what would you say to them about how they can help just in their roles in the church and serving in the church? Ben: The youth today are hungry to hear about the topic. They have gay friends at school or transgender friends and they just want to like how this fits in with the gospel. So if we can have discussions about LGBT issues at church, I think that would be amazing.  You know it’s not like we need to say, “Today is LGBT Day.” I don’t think that’s how it needs to work. But Elder Holland gave such a good example in the conference talk– I think it was in 2015–where he talked about mothers and the son on a mission who came home who was gay.  And he said, “ And he didn’t change and no one expected him to.” We can just talk about LGBT issues in organic ways and make it part of our regular discourse. Any time I hear about LGBT issues, it’s usually within the context of it being a sin. Elder Ballard has said that it’s not a choice–it’s a complex reality. As a church we should be reaching out with love and kindness. And so if we can talk about those principles more regularly in church–I think that would do a lot of good.  And one way that I would recommend that priesthood leaders talk about this issue is frame it in the context of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Because that Parable was prompted by two questions. A lawyer asked Jesus first, “How do you gain eternal life?”  And then he says, “You love God and you love your neighbor.” And then Jesus says, “Who’s your neighbor?”  And to answer that question He gives the parable of the Good Samaritan. And who was the good Samaritan?  The Samaritan was someone he would have hated. He was an apostate and not welcome in the community and that was the example of a person he gave who was going to go to heaven. And I think that’s really interesting. You know, I think we do a lot of judging and I think we do a lot better job not judging people who make choices different than ours. Most of my LGBT friends who had been our members of church aren’t actively participating more and I wish everyone could stay, but you know that’s their choice. I need to honor their agency. So what can we to do love those people who have left and how are we going to include them in our circles of love even if they’re choosing a path different then the one that we’ve chosen for ourselves? Faith is Not Blind: Maybe you’ve experienced this, but but I always cringe a little bit in certain situations where–whether it is homosexuality or even some other things–people will make a comment about people that aren’t like them because they think they’re in a room full of people like them. And that assumption I think can be can be hurtful and also isolating. When someone makes a comment about gays or whatever and they just don’t realize they could be in the room. I think they should keep in mind that those are good conversations to have with those individuals. I love the idea of it being organic. And then also keeping in mind, “How would that feel if somebody in this room is suffering with that or struggling having some questions or feeling isolated–how can we help them?” That’s a really great perspective, but I think especially in this case where it’s so isolating. You talked about that fork in the road and that’s a really tough place to be in. I think our community and  our religion needs to reach out more and be sensitive. That can only help rather than hinder. Ben: I want to share one more piece of advice. The Church website has a section called “counseling resources” and there’s a tab that says, “same-sex attraction.” It’s specifically for church leaders so you have to be on a stake or ward council to have access to it. It gives some advice about what to do when someone comes out and how to help them. And one of the things that says in there is to “encourage them to seek their own inspiration on how to live their life.” That’s the most important thing we can teach any member is to seek inspiration from the Holy Ghost. When I did that and when I started to find out what God wanted for me then none of my behavior has changed. I had always been active in the church and I stayed that way. None of my behavior has changed, but the reason I was doing it changed and that made all the difference in the world. Faith is Not Blind: That’s fantastic. Thank you so much for being willing to share your experience and your advice which is really really helpful. The post Ben: Openly Gay and Openly Faithful first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Emily: Being Divorced in a Family-Centered Church Emily talks about how her expectations were seriously challenged because of traumatic experiences in her childhood. She also discusses how her difficult divorce and the judgments that accompanied it caused her to create complex versions of both faith and charity. Emily’s story is told with both sweetness and wisdom, and she’ll teach you how to see your own suffering and the suffering of others through a unique, insightful lens. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “[O]ur memories of Kirtland can be enriched by our later, perhaps more turbulent experiences. The very meaning of our earlier witnesses will grow richer with the perspective of both time and complexity. . . That we once saw so clearly is our witness that we can again see clearly, now with even greater depth, in the very midst of —or perhaps because of—our afflictions.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 8 “When Will the Angels Come?” p. 68) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. My name is Sarah d’Evegné and I’m here with my good friend Emily. Part of the reason that I really wanted Emily to be able to share her story is because it’s not an easy story, but it’s a story that has a lot of power and a lot of love in it. Emily, if you could just start off by talking a little bit about your childhood and your relationship with the Church and your testimony early on.   Emily: I had a I think I had a fairly happy childhood. I am the middle child of 5 and the oldest daughter. I was born and raised in the Church. I guess if I can just jump straight to my testimony, my family was active my whole life. When I was 12, I had an experience where I had an awakening and I needed to find out for myself. I had a lot of darkness come into my life at that point as well as from an earlier event when I was younger. I finally was old enough to process what had happened to me, and that really set me on a path of seeking the light. And I found that light through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. So I began studying the Book of Mormon. I began listening and watching anything uplifting that I could get my hands on. I read a lot. I went to Church and I listened to the lessons. Particularly when I studied the Book of Mormon, the scriptures that stood out to be the most or were the ones that let me know that I could know for myself. They were the ones that let me know that I could have a personal relationship with Jesus and I wanted that more than anything, so I sought it.    So at around the age of 12, I had a pretty strong witness that my Savior was there and that He loved me. I believed this is his Church and I had a strong testimony of Joseph Smith, so I had a pretty good foundation.   Faith Is Not Blind: You talked about how that strong spiritual foundation helped you to cope with an earlier traumatic event. How did finding that light help you, at least at that age, to feel like you could keep going forward and keep having faith in God?   Emily: So I was able to put things in perspective the best that I could at that age. I was able to realize that I could forgive the person that was involved in that situation with me, and that I could feel clean and pure and that I was of worth and value to God.   Faith Is Not Blind: How important to be able to feel that value. As you went forward in your life, how did you make sure–at least try to make sure–that you still had those feelings of worth and a light? I want to make sure that we talk about how the experiences that maybe don’t have light in them still can have value for us. How did you make sure that you maintained that attitude? Because as we get older, difficulties don’t stop, but neither does the light.    Emily: Oh, absolutely. When I was a teenager President Benson was the Prophet and he said a lot of great things to the youth. And I was very keen on following everything that he said to the letter. One of the blessings (and in some ways not a blessing) of having had a traumatic experience as a young child and then searching for the light, is that I clung to the light with a fervor and zeal because I never wanted to feel the darkness again. So I read my scriptures every day. I did Seminary–early morning Seminary. I went to Church every week. It was like if a  new commandment came out, I was the first to do it. So for me, I was clinging to the Iron Rod.   Faith Is Not Blind:  I think it’s interesting how you said “in a good way and maybe not in a good way.” Because if we feel like the light can protect us or immunize, we will probably be disappointed.    Emily: Exactly. I felt like in doing those things I would then make me immune to further darkness and that was not the case.    Faith Is Not Blind: Then why did you stick with the light?  I think there might be an impulse to say, “This isn’t working.This protection isn’t working” or thinking, “I am being good so I’ll be blessed” but then those blessings aren’t coming. What kept you going if that strict obedience wasn’t giving you the blessings you expected? What kept you grounded and able to keep holding on? What helped you hold on in particular when things became even more difficult as you got older and had even more mature and more difficult experiences?   Emily: I’d like to talk about one of those experiences just to illustrate. I was married at the age of 21, and I had a marriage that lasted for 16 years and then it ended in divorce. And early on in our marriage I could see there were a lot of issues that we were dealing with. And really that’s when the darkness came back for me. That’s when I really struggled to understand why things were happening that way. Because I had been keeping all of the commandments. Because in my mind I thought I had put it on myself. I never put it on God. I thought I must be doing something wrong. I kept trying to fix myself. I kept trying to find an explanation and search through every corner of my soul to find out what was wrong with me. Because surely there was some commandment that I wasn’t following or otherwise this wouldn’t be happening. So I just kept soul searching and soul searching. And then at one point I kind of flipped to a little bit of disillusionment. I did go through a period where I had some conversations with Heavenly Father and I said, “Wow this is really hard.” And I was asking Him, “What did I do to deserve this?”    But then I was able to resolve it because the whole time He kept sending witness after witness after witness. And He would just find these moments where maybe I wasn’t fully involved in the situation or where I was mentally and emotionally available and instantly His Spirit would rush in or I would get just a feeling of love or a feeling of peace. And I would know undeniably that He was there and that He was guiding me. I’ve had several instances like that and that is what kept me going. Those experiences were very personal, very intimate–the kind of nobody-else-there experiences.   Faith Is Not Blind: And did you feel like because you had those experiences that you could keep going?   Emily: Yes. And also words from General Conference and words of the prophets and little quotes here and there. You know, I made the decision when I was going through this that I was going to remain active and faithful in the Church. It was not easy. But because I was in a place where I could hear those things.    Faith Is Not Blind: It sounds like that’s what you could control. You could at least choose to be in a place where you could find hope even if sometimes you had to wait for it. At least you could choose to be in that place and be available, which sometimes is all we can do.    Divorce is a difficult topic in the Church and I do want to talk about that a little bit. As a person who has been through a divorce, what might you say to other people in the Church to help them be supportive to people who are going through things like and maybe they don’t know how to react. Maybe they don’t know how to be supportive or how to give light to someone else who is going through it.   Emily: That’s a really good question. I would just say that I think we all are going to take our turn in the Refiner’s Fire–where it may appear on the outside that things are different than they actually are. And it’s very easy when you haven’t gone through a particular trial to pass judgment, and not even because you’re a bad person or even really wanting to pass judgement. But I think it’s natural to do so. To think, “Well, that person is going through that trial. What did they do?” I think it’s very healthy to acknowledge that we don’t have all the facts and there’s a high likelihood that there are a lot of the facts that cannot be discussed publicly. So rather than trying to figure out what happened or make a judgment call, this is what some people did really well. They rushed in without any judgment and they just asked what they could do to help. They just were completely available and they would just listen and they would just love. And never tried to give me advice, never tried to fix it. They just were there when I needed them. And they let me have the experience that I was having.   Faith is Not Blind: I think it’s so interesting that that matches your description of how God was with you. He was available to you. And when you were feeling like you didn’t know how to judge yourself as a twelve-year-old and when you were feeling like you were doing everything wrong and then God reached in and taught you that you had value. Did that experience help you judge other people less? Because it seems like what was the most powerful for you was when other people reached towards you without judgment. How has that helped you be that same way with other people?   Emily: I would say when I look at other people now I don’t see things in a black and white way. I see the complexity of the situation. I look for their goodness and  I just respect their struggle and  I don’t judge as much as humanly possible. I try not to judge because I know now. I know what they must be going through. And it’s actually a huge relief because trying to carry the burden of being the judge of somebody else is a very heavy burden. It’s just a lot easier to love them.    You know, one thing I wanted to say without going into great detail is that I certainly did feel judged a lot. But it was most of all by myself to myself.  Because I had such a high standard for myself and I had believed and been taught that once you’re sealed in the temple, you don’t get divorced. You work at your marriage and you never give up. So when I went through a divorce I feel like a complete failure. I felt like I was apotacizing from the Church. Before my divorce, l had gone to church and I had sat in the pews in Sacrament Meeting. After my divorce, I went to Church and I snuck in the back door and sat on the last row. And just sat there, just so scared to be there. And I I felt like I had failed.    Faith is Not Blind: So how did you get through that?   Emily: It took a long time. It took me a long time to get the point where Heavenly Father was able to get through to me and just to let me know that it was okay. There’s still a little part of me every once in a while but that circles back that way, but he just let me know that it’s okay. And the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is so strong. And everything doesn’t have to be perfect and everything doesn’t have to look perfect. I had to completely let go of the paradigm of how things should look. What is the perfect LDS life? You know, you’re raised to go on a mission or maybe you go to a Church School. You’re active in the Church your whole life. You go to Girls’ Camp and Seminary Graduation.   Faith Is Not Blind: You check off all of the boxes.    Emily: Yes. You check off all of the boxes. I was the young woman with the picture of the temple on her wall and all of the inspirational quotes everywhere. And I was just so believing. So I went from that sort of extreme to this feeling of absolute failure, like I had missed the ideal. I had gotten a divorce and that was just not okay. But on the other side of that I found. . . Sorry. It’s so hard for me to talk about this in a calm way. I thought I could come and do this in a calm way.   Faith Is Not Blind: You’re doing great.    Emily: But I found Heavenly Father in a deeper way than I had ever found Him before. My relationship with him. Interestingly instead of now trying to look the part of a perfect woman. I felt like I had found something deeper than that. I felt like I had found the true meaning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And it was actually a–again I will use the word–relief to detach from all of that expectation, and for myself and for my children to just have a life experience.    Faith Is Not Blind: The last question that I want to ask is this: you said you found the true Church and the true meaning of the Gospel. How would you define what that truth is?     Emily: So I found the purity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is an understanding of His complete unconditional love and the power that is in the Atonement to lift and to heal and to just make everything okay. And I learned some things going through that–to sound a little cliche–that I couldn’t have learned any other way. I suppose I don’t know that for certain because this is the only way it happened. But I guess I would say that there are lessons that will be etched on my soul for eternity, things that I can’t unknow. By going through that refiner’s fire I learned that the pure message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simply that you are a child of God. You’re here on this earth to have experiences to remind your Spirit to learn the Gospel. And if you’re lucky and blessed, you’ll be able to form an eternal family unit. I know there’s so much more after this life. This life is not just what we see here. So I have this feeling of connection to the Gospel of Jesus Christ–not necessarily the form or the expectation.  Faith Is Not Blind: You make me think of the scripture that talks about Christ saying that He has “engraven us upon the palms of His hands.” But you have also engraven Him on your hands and on your heart and on your life. And I think that’s a pretty beautiful way to have your life be focused. Thank you so much for sharing. The post Emily: Being Divorced in a Family-Centered Church first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

    Jenna didn’t realize that having a faith crisis could nurture her faith and help it to grow in productive, developmental ways.  It wasn’t until her sister chose to leave the Church that Jenna had to reevaluate her definition of what faith is. Jenna beautifully describes how she learned that healthy faith grows, matures, and progresses as we do. FULL TEXT Faith Is Not Blind:  This is the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I’m Sarah d’Evegnée and I’m here in the Washington DC area with Janna. Janna  is going to talk a little bit about her faith crisis, but I’d like to give a little context before we start. Janna is going to talk about how sometimes  a faith crisis can sort of sneak up on you and how it might not always be a result of some of the behaviors or that we might assume it’s a result of. I’m really pleased that Janna is here to share her story and to help us understand what we call a faith crisis a little better.    To start off with, because there’s so much to talk about with your personal experiences, I’d like you to talk about when you were an adolescent and your experiences with your family. At that time in your life, what was your expectation about what a faith crisis might look like? And  then how did your expectations change when some of your family members had a kind of faith crisis?   Janna: I was so young and I had no thought about what a faith crisis was. I kind of had an idea that it happened, but I assumed that maybe the person wanted it to happen, like they weren’t fully invested in the Church and weren’t “all in.” Or that they had done something so that the Spirit couldn’t be with them and that they were more susceptible to mistruths–things that weren’t true. So that answers that part of the questions. Do you want to know about my own spiritual development?   Faith Is Not Blind: Why don’t you talk about your experience with your sister?   Janna: Okay. So when I was when I was younger, my brothers distanced themselves from the Church, and  as I got older–it was about four years or so ago–my sister let me know that she no longer believed in the Church. This was interesting because this came at a time for me when I had really started to commit myself to the Lord in a way that I hadn’t before. It’s not that I wasn’t always a very active and believing person in the Church, but it was like I had the sense that I hadn’t yet fully committed myself to the Savior and to that path of discipleship. And so I had started to study the scriptures with the intent to change and be changed.    Faith Is Not Blind: With real intent, like Moroni says.   Janna: Yes. And all of a sudden I understood what that meant. And the Spirit was my tutor and I was changing and becoming better. And I had felt that I needed to say a prayer to Heavenly Father to ask him if he would teach me something that I didn’t yet know or  that I was ready to know.   Faith Is Not Blind: Which is such a brave question.   Janna: Or naive.   Faith Is Not Blind: Brave or naive, depending on how you look at it.   Janna: Thank you for putting that spin on it. But I kept going after that prayer and I meant it and I felt that I was ready for it. And so what happened in the next two weeks was that I got a message from my mom and my sister separately– they didn’t plan this–in which they both let me know that they were no longer active in the Church. And it was hard for the obvious reasons, but it was hard also because they were people who you just knew never would leave.   Faith Is Not Blind: So it contradicted the previous expectation that you had had that they must have done something to deserve it or that they had wanted it somehow. It was sort of a contradiction of your expectation.   Janna: Yes. And I knew that if they had left, it must have been for some substantial reason. And it was all so hard because at that point I had certain struggles with the Church, certain frustrations over women’s issues. I had read the Essays that the Church had put out.   Faith Is Not Blind: The Gospel Topics Essays?   Janna: Yes. And I had what I felt were some reasonable concerns about them. I didn’t feel like I had unreasonable expectations of early Church leaders or that what I was learning about them didn’t meet those expectations. I think I struggled with things that a reasonable person with reasonable expectations would struggle to reconcile with the Church and its claims.    Faith Is Not Blind: So with your mom and your sister, how did their spin on the reasonability of their decision affect you?   Janna: So with my sister, it felt like I was her in some ways because her reasons for leaving were what would have been my reasons if I had chosen to leave. So it felt like I was seeing an alternate version of myself walk away. And in that moment I felt the Spirit very much. It was strange because as she was telling me, even though it was very hard and painful, I felt a lot of comfort from the Spirit. And I felt the Spirit tell me that I should not try to convince her that she was wrong, that this experience was very painful for her and I shouldn’t make it harder in any way. And that what I needed to do was to love her and make sure that she knew that our relationship wasn’t going to change in any way, which was her big fear. And so that’s what I did. Faith Is Not Blind: So you were a safe place for her.  Janna: She would say so, I think.   Faith Is Not Blind: And you showed compassion, which in some ways again contradicted your previous expectations. So you were able to let go of expectations, which is a sign of maturity. You allowed her to be an individual.    Janna: It may not have been a sign of maturity, but the Spirit made it be clear enough to me that I had no problem doing it. I felt no desire to try to convince her that she was wrong. It was that strong.    Faith Is Not Blind: She had been such a strong, stalwart member before. And you knew her well enough to know that it was painful. That’s very telling. Talk a little bit about how that foreshadowed your own experience not long after that.    Janna: So what happened for me at that point was that I ended this conversation with her and then it kind of felt like any kind of doubt that I’d had in the past kind of crept up on me in that moment. It was like the spiritual ground just fell out from underneath me. And within a matter of days really, I was in a full-blown spiritual crisis. I just could not believe it, partly because right before this happened, I was at what I considered a very strong point.   Faith Is Not Blind: You had described it as having real intent.   Janna: Yes. I was sure that I had nothing to be ashamed of, and that shaped how I handled the crisis. I decided to be very open about it, and I assumed that if I had experienced this as a person who loved the Gospel and who believed, then there must be other people that were experiencing this too. So for their sake as much as mine, I decided that I would be open about it.   Faith Is Not Blind: What did you learn as you talk to other people, even as you were experiencing that grief?   Janna: So I asked my husband for a blessing. And in that blessing, I received some very unusual counsel, and that was to reach out to friends and ask them not what they believed, but why they believed what they believed. So I sent out an email to several friends who I really respected–and I do respect–and I asked them why they believe what they believe. And I was surprised by the number of responses I got back from people who said that they weren’t sure that they did believe. And then I thought, “Why does Heavenly Father want me to ask them?” As fragile as I was, I didn’t know why I was getting this counsel. Why would He have me do this and  then go into an even weaker State? And if I’m honest, I think it did. I think it put me into a weaker state for a while than I was before. So it was interesting.    Faith Is Not Blind: What happened as you talked to those people, even in your weakness? What did you learn about faith crises and the ability to talk about them? Janna: Well, I learned that we should talk about them. I learned that people need to talk about them. I had a friend who felt so much shame about the idea that she was having a faith crisis that she actually wouldn’t write back to me about it. She wanted to go for a walk. She didn’t want to have it documented. She was having her own struggles. And I just thought, “Oh my goodness. Why are we so secretive about this?”   Faith Is Not Blind: Well, let me turn that around and have you answer that question. Why do you think they were so ashamed about it? Why do you think that people might be too ashamed to talk about it?   Janna: Maybe shame isn’t all of it. Maybe it’s fear. And there’s the idea that if we’re going through a faith crisis then it somehow reflects on some kind of weakness. Either I wasn’t doing enough of the right things or I was doing too many of the wrong things, otherwise I wouldn’t be going through this. But I think it can also just be fear because we think, “Oh my goodness. I can’t even look at this. The stakes are so high that I just can’t deal with it. And what if I tell my spouse and then they lose it? Or what if everything is lost because of this?”     Faith Is Not Blind: So there’s all this fear and trepidation going into it, and then also wondering, “Am I indulging this somehow if I talk about it.?”  So how did it help you to talk about it with friends and with your husband? How did it help you to talk about it, first of all? And then second of all, what was helpful as you talked to people?   Janna: Part of the blessing that my  husband gave me to was  that he asked me to talk with people who I related to who were strong in the Gospel. And I did that and I found a lot of people shared some of the concerns that I had about Church History and about women’s issues, but they had found ways to maintain our testimonies.  So that was helpful. What was the other part of your question?   Faith Is Not Blind:  How did people respond in a way that was helpful, especially your husband?   Janna: What my husband said to me when I made it more evident that I was struggling was very simple. He just said, “Well, our faith can’t stay the same.”  And it seems like not very much of a response, like, “That’s all you have to say about it?” But to me, that was perfect  because it was just a simple acknowledgment that this is part of the Plan of Salvation. Part of the Plan is for us to be tried. And I think that if our ultimate ultimate goal is to become like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother–I don’t know what we think it takes to become like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, but Elder Maxwell talked about how sometimes we think that we can just “ride to paradise in a  golf cart.” Well, that is not really what it looks like. We don’t get there by having easy experiences.    Faith Is Not Blind: So as this came to pass in your own life, your faith didn’t stay the same. What does it feel like to have evolving faith? If it’s not “riding to paradise in a golf cart,” what does it feel like?    Janna: It probably feels different for different people but I can say what it felt like for me. Because it was such a shock for it to come in the way that it did, and as fast and hard as it came, I felt paralyzed. I did not know how to pray. I would go to pray and literally all I could say was, “I don’t know what to say.”  And then I would wait for something to come and nothing would. And then I was like, “I don’t know what to say” and then I would just end the prayer. And what I really wanted, what I hoped desperately for, was to know that it was possible to have been the kind of member of the Church that I was–who was “in it,” who had already very critically considered my beliefs–and then go through such a disillusionment and a crisis of faith and come out okay.  I didn’t want to come out of it in spiritual tatters but still be believing. Or be jaded but still believing.    Faith Is Not Blind: Because that’s not an evolution of your faith.   Janna: No. It’s not. That’s just survival and not very good survival. I wanted to be able to come out of this and to be stronger for it. But I hadn’t ever seen that from someone. I had a hard time even finding it  in the scriptures. I didn’t know if it was possible. And so I ultimately had to decide to figure out on my own if it was possible.   Faith Is Not Blind: And what did you find out?   Janna: Well, so what I did was I started to go back to the very basics. And I started to ask myself if there was anything I was sure of. And if I was sure, what were those things? Why was I sure about them? And what was I not sure of any more? And why wasn’t I sure of them anymore? And what does that mean? Then I started to go on. But I was happy that there were some things that I was really sure of, but they were very basic.    They did not include things like, “Was this the true restored Church of Christ?” I had harder questions to grapple with. But one of the things that I felt like Heavenly Father really wanted me to learn in the process of having my testimony stripped down to the very basics was that the things that I was most sure of were the things that he wanted me to care about the most, and that those were the most important things. Because there are a lot of things that matter, but to very different degrees. If Brother So-and-So doesn’t wear a tie to church, I suppose that could be an indication of his commitment, but I kind of doubt it. And even if it were, that’s not the thing to be worrying about right now. But things that really matter–that are really worth my attention–are things like the condition of my heart and the way that I relate to my family and the way that I treat other people. Do I make sure that Brother So-and-So, despite his differences, feels valued and loved and knows that he is supposed to be here–those kinds of things. And it was interesting because as I made that realization about what really matters most, it helped me. Even if I still am frustrated about certain things in Church History and feel like they should not have happened, it put those things in perspective for me in terms of what it is that Heavenly Father is looking for in me. Is He hoping that in the next life I’m going to be able to look at Him and say, “I had a conviction that the Church is infallible?” or “I had a conviction that Church leaders never made meaningful mistakes?” I don’t think that’s what He is as concerned about as much as how converted to the Savior I was. And how much of Him was reflected in me. And when I realized that those were the things that mattered, I understood that those are the things that mattered so much more than anything else. And so it helped me think that the fact that we get it wrong sometimes seems very normal to me. It seems very expected to me, even as a Church. We are so far from who God is and who Heavenly Mother is. Even if we live this incredible life, at the end of it we are still going to be nowhere near where they are. So it’s pretty miraculous to me that we get it as right as we do as often as we do.   Faith Is Not Blind: So I have two last questions I want to ask you. The first one is about how your husband talked about faith doesn’t stay the same, and then you talked about how you think the most important thing is how much we are like the Savior.  So how has the process of your faith evolving changed your relationship with the Savior so that you can become more like Him? What is your relationship with Him like now?   Janna: I think that I understand a lot more how loving and merciful He is. And I think I understand more that He is what they say He is–the Alpha and the Omega. He is the light. He is the truth. Everything starts with Him and everything ends with Him, which is very comforting. I think the more that you get to know Him, the more you realize that we’re all in pretty good hands.   Faith IS Not Blind: Yes. And He has engraven us upon those hands.   Janna: Yes. And He knows me. I have learned through this that He is willing to work with people. And He will take you wherever you are. Believe me, I have felt that very much as I’ve looked at my family and the choices that they’ve made and in the experiences that they’ve gone through and as I’ve considered what I’ve gone through. I have felt the extent of His patience and  love and flexibility.   Faith Is Not Blind: My last question is: for the people who have not gone through a faith crises before, what do you wish they knew more of so that they could handle those who are going through it with a little bit more care and compassion?   Janna:  I wish that they made fewer assumptions. President Uchtdorf talked about this years ago. There are many reasons why people go through a faith crisis. I wish that they would allow for more conversations in faith-promoting settings–so in church where we’ve had the sacrament and where the Spirit is present. Elder Ballard talked about knowing the Gospel Topic Essays like the back of our hand and then talking about them in the Church, and I think we’re still kind of afraid to do that. And of course we have to be careful about how we talk about issues that are tough for people, but I wish that we could create a better space to talk about these things productively. Because it’s possible for a faith crisis to be destructive, but it’s very possible for a faith crisis to be productive. And there’s a lot that we can do to make them normal. They really are very normal. The more that we learn about people’s experiences, the more that we learn that this happens. Faith Is Not Blind: And it seems like your faith crisis has been productive. I love thinking about you searching for someone who had gone through it before. And now you get to be that person. I think of the Pioneers who used to plant crops that they didn’t harvest. They planted them so that the people who came after them would have something to harvest. So thank you for being an example for someone who’s coming along behind you. The post Jenna: Your Faith Doesn’t Have to Stay the Same–Healthy Faith Is Growing Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Brian grew up in Liverpool, England in a poor family that was converted to the Church when young Brian met tall, American missionaries and invited his new “friends” to come to his house. His parents were completed committed to the Church, walking miles and miles each week to attend meetings and to help build a new church building for their congregation brick by brick. But Brian’s true conversion didn’t take place until he had a harrowing experience while working as an engineer in Antarctica. A sudden storm forced Brian to find refuge in a cave he dug in the ice, and for three days and three nights he suffered and prayed and repented. He found light in that dark place and it was a miracle that saved him. This miracle not only saved his life, but it saved his soul. The post Brian: The Life-Saving Miracle that Brought Me Back to God first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Bruce Hafen : My Story of How I Found My Own Testimony   Elder Bruce Hafen is co-author of Faith is Not Blind and is an emeritus General Authority for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In this interview, Elder Hafen details the role of questioning in distinguishing between Gospel belief and knowledge in his own life. He shares his own experience with doubt and with his own questions as he learned to develop his testimony, and offers a refreshing look at how we all need to work to develop our beliefs. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “At nineteen, I didn’t have the words to express my faith adequately—except alone at the pipe organ. The distinctions among knowing, believing, doubting, and wondering are not trivial.  But they are often unclear, because our experience is larger than our vocabulary. . . I try to describe here my personal quest for a more ‘knowing’ faith—the questions I encountered and the vocabulary I learned in seeking answers to them, a step at a time.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 2, “Faith is Not Blind. Or Deaf. Or Dumb,” p. 5)   FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Today we have the author of Faith Is Not Blind, Elder Bruce C. Hafen, with us who wrote the book that this podcast is based on with his wife, Marie. Elder Hafen: Thank you, Eric Faith Is Not Blind: In this podcast and in the other podcasts based on the book, we’ve talked about faith–faith not being blind and some of the ambiguities and the complexities that we face. The questions we’ve been asking people are about the development of their testimony and about when they were young and what is it that brought them into the Church. What is it that helped them to convert. And so I wanted to ask you was how did your testimony in the Gospel of Jesus Christ develop? Elder Hafen:  I grew up in a really wonderful home. My parents were models in the way they lived, in what I have come to call the “simplicity beyond complexity.”  They had worked through complexities in their own lives and they were honest. They were full of devotion to the Lord and to the church, but they were realists and I sensed that about them. And I think that helped me because I think I saw as the prophet Jacob said, “things as they really are.”  I think I saw the ideal and the real as natural, as sort of developmental points along some spectrum of growth. And that was just kind of inborn. I couldn’t have put it into words at that stage, but they were wonderful role models. They gave me many opportunities–typical opportunities in a small Latter-day Saint community. I was active in the Church and all the ways that people are who go to church all the time. But despite having gone to Seminary and having been active in the Church, when I approached going on a mission there was a moment of apprehension for me. Because I really couldn’t stand up at my missionary farewell and say “I know the gospel is true.” I had heard missionaries say that. I’d heard people say that in testimony meeting all my life. I’d heard people say that and in my private moments I couldn’t understand how they could say they knew it. What do you mean “you know the gospel is true?” Because for me in my inner honest thoughts I believed it was true. It made sense to me. I can remember at my missionary farewell because this was kind of a big issue for me and I was determined to keep my integrity, I wasn’t going to say more than I knew. There just happened to be a potted plant on the stand of our chapel during this farewell. And I can remember pointing at that plant and saying, “I think my faith and my testimony are like that plant.” I think I’d  been reading Alma 32 a lot. I don’t know exactly what I said, but the idea was. “I believe it’s true.”I don’t know if I would have said that I planted the seed and all that, but that was the idea. I believed it enough to go on my mission and I went in good conscience. Faith Is Not Blind: You describe your home and I thought it was really interesting that you talk about your parents as being examples of that kind of “simplicity beyond complexity.” And that you said to to some extent you couldn’t quite put that into words. And that plays a role in your missionary farewell. So at what point do you feel like you could put into words your testimony of the Gospel? Elder Hafen: Interesting that you would use those terms, Eric. I know your love of words and I love words. There is one phrase that has occurred to me in describing where I was about belief and faith, and there so many words used to describe our feelings. I don’t think I could have told you this then, but I can say now looking back, is that part of the problem is that our experience is broader than our vocabulary. I knew what my experience was but I didn’t know quite what to call it. I was sensitive and being honest was a big deal for me. I just didn’t want to say more than I knew. In fact when I went on my mission there was an early experience I had. Back in those days we only spent five days and they called it the mission home. I guess we learned faster in those days. We learned about the missionary discussions to get ready to go. Toward the end of that week  there was a moment when we were supposed to give the first discussion to our companion. We were doing a practice session and then I remember there was a returned missionary who was wandering by and we were all in little groups in a big room. I was talking about the apostasy and I was making the point that Christ’s church today needs to have the 12 apostles just like it did when Christ was on the earth. And this returned missionary behind me–I never knew his name–he said, “Elder, bear your testimony about that. Say you know that Christ’s church today needs to have 12 Apostles. Just say that.”  And it kind of touched a nerve. It wasn’t his fault. But I wasn’t going to say I knew it, but I also didn’t want to be any trouble. So I think I said something like, “I’ll bear my testimony. I will gladly do that, but I have my own way to say it and I’ll do it with real investigators. This is kind of a practice session.”  And he said, “Elder, bear your testimony that you know there are 12 Apostles today.”  And I don’t know why, but he  must have been a little fed up. So kind of quietly–I was respectful–but I said, “Well, actually I think Christ’s Church has 15 Apostles.” And he pulled up a chair and sat down next to me and said, “Have we got a little problem here?” I didn’t know how to feel. I wasn’t mad at him, but I was thinking, “I’m not ready for a mission if a mission is going to be like this. Maybe I need to do something else for a while.”  And then we were interrupted or something. I don’t know what happened. But then I started thinking about what if my experience is broader than my vocabulary? But that bothered me enough to want to say something to him. So what was going on? So in my memory I went back to thinking about how almost every night in the two or three weeks before I left on my mission I would use my key to the St. George Tabernacle–that wonderful Pioneer Building. I’d go in at 11 or so and I had a key to the Chapel to the Tabernacle because I was an Assistant Stake Organist. They had a beautiful pipe organ in the Tabernacle. I’d go in and unlock the organ and the only light in the building would be the little light on the console of the organ. And I’d sit there and then play the hymns of Zion. And sing them. Just me and the organ. And I thought to myself, “What was that about if you didn’t have a testimony?” But it was just me and I was singing my heart out and I wanted to go on a mission. And I guess the short answer is that during the course of my mission I had a series of experiences here and there that one by one added up to the shift from belief to knowledge–not in a complete sense–in my experience you don’t go from one category to another. And really ever since that time Alma 32 was kind of like my handbook. I am so thankful for that chapter in The Book of Mormon. Because it was like Alma was tutoring me and he reassured me about my insecurities. Because he said, “you cannot know of a surety that my words are true at first.” And I thought, “Oh. I’m so glad to hear you say that, Alma. Tell me more.”  And then he said, “If you can do no more than desire to believe.” And I sort of walked through all of that. Part of what I love about the analogy that is instructive is that it’s a process of growth. You take a step at a time. You know the seed is good, but there’s still a lot you don’t know. So you can have unbelief and belief at the same time. I love the New Testament story about the man who says to the Savior when the Savior says he can heal his son, “I believe, Help thou my unbelief.” I’m so thankful that that’s in there because there would be those who would say, “Hey look. Either you can believe or you don’t.” But in my experience it’s a process of going from belief to knowledge. It’s organic. You grow. There’s one little example in the book “Faith Is Not Blind” that was very vivid and really significant for me in this sense. I won’t tell the whole story here, but there was this wonderful American couple we met in Germany. And they were about to join the church and then they got a letter from home that really upset them. It was the early sixties. The father’s family told him, “Don’t get close to that church. They don’t give the priesthood to African men.” They were ready to give it all up, but they were tortured by it because they believed it was true. And they turned to me and said, “This is the last time we’re going to talk to you. But we just found this out and we don’t like it. What have you got to say?”  I really had nothing to say except I was just sick at heart to see such good people be in that place. There’s the scripture that says in the hundredth section of the Doctrine and Covenants about the missionaries, “If they will treasure up the words of life continually, in the very moment it will be given them what to say.” And I was sitting there with my mind blank and suddenly I remembered something I’d read in my personal scripture study several months earlier. I’d never heard anybody talk about this and I said, “Why don’t we read Acts chapter 10?” It’s the story of Cornelius where the Lord directs Peter–by sending Cornelius the Gentile to him–that the time has come that the gospel will be given to the Gentiles. It was this incredible revelation that changes the whole history of the Christian World–in fact the entire world. That was just given to me. I had read about it, but it was unmistakable. It was so concrete. And that was one little piece in the process. All  I can say is that in the years that followed–in the years of my mission especially–but here a little there a little, I have come to understand what Alma knows. So now I’m at this stage at the end of the comparison when he comes to the tree and the tree bears fruit and now I know what the fruit is. In fact, it’s only been within the last few years that I’ve finally read Alma 33 and I’ve learned that it’s not just about faith in general. It’s about faith in Jesus Christ. So it only took me 40 years to figure that out. Faith Is Not Blind: I think it’s interesting how you talk about how there are pieces and parts of your testimony. I think sometimes it’s easy to think that that we have this testimony and it’s a static thing. That when you know, that belief starts to crowd out unbelief. But years later after your mission, you gave a devotional called “On Dealing with Uncertainty” in 1979 I believe that I love. It’s one of my all-time favorites. Why did you write that particular devotional? Why did you feel like you needed to address the topic of uncertainty? Elder Hafen: I appreciate that question, Eric. I felt a lot of responsibility for these wonderful students at Ricks College. Marie and I would talk about it. We would pray about it and I don’t even remember exactly what it was, except that it was because of my own experience. I kept seeing in the lives of these of these young people–these students and other people I knew in the church or people who were young and kind of getting started–that they would come to the campus and get surprised by something. They would have disappointed expectations. And they didn’t know how to deal with it. And I would see it over and over. And I thought, “My job here–I’m not an educator, I’m an administrator–it’s my job to mentor these young men and women who come here to learn about life and education and the gospel.” I wanted to explain something to them about life that I think is natural. And  so I think that it was called “On Dealing with Uncertainty.” I gave it as a devotional at Ricks College and then I was later asked to give it at BYU. And then somebody at the Ensign magazine published it. That was a long time ago. Faith Is Not Blind: A lot of those ideas find their way into Faith Is Not Blind. The devotional was in 1979 and then the Faith Is Not Blind book comes out in 2019. What was it about the responses to those devotionals that ended up leading to Faith Is Not Blind? Elder Hafen: Another way to ask that question–you’re too polite to put it this way–I heard one man say of another man, “He’s still talking about that after 40 years?? What happened is we didn’t really keep thinking about it in any active way, except but we believed in the principles. You know, they’re basic gospel principles. I don’t know when this would have started–in the last 20 years–let me put it that way. I would get approached or Marie would or somebody would write a note or somebody would come up to us wherever we might be–at BYU or BYU-Idaho or a Stake Conference someplace and they would say, “Somebody gave me this old talk you gave.” You can find it at lds.org. And they say, “This helped me deal with some issues in my own life.” I’d given enough talks over the years that it began to be striking to me that–why is it that of all the things that might have been of  interest to anybody, why are they talking about this specific talk?  And as we would talk about it, they’d say, “It’s the internet culture. People are being introduced to questions about the church that we had never anticipated.”  What we were talking about in On Dealing with Uncertainty would apply to this kind of environment. So we began thinking and  kind of poking around, trying to understand it and we just followed our feelings and thoughts. And it just seemed to us that those ideas made sense back then. What had we been learning about these ideas for four decades? And how does that apply to today’s world? What we say in the book is not exactly what’s in the talk, but the principles are much the same. And I don’t apologize for that–sort of like faith, repentance and baptism–and I don’t mean to equate them. But the idea that we learn from experience. You know, I guess I will say it’s very basic doctrine.  When we talk about moving from simplicity to complexity to the simplicity beyond complexity–this is all about Adam and Eve. There in the Garden of Eden complexity hits with a vengeance and it lasts a long time and it’s got many variations on the theme. And then the angel comes to teach Adam and Eve about the Redemption in Christ and why they’re offering sacrifice, not to tell them, “So here’s the deal way back into the Garden.” But it  was purposeful. Mortality is purposeful. The reason I was saying this to help our students in the olden days was simply as an expression of the most basic story in the scriptures: the story of Adam and Eve. And why we come to the Earth is the same reason that they did. So it’s really important to think of life as not just is purposeful but developmental. I want to add one more thought, but I want to anchor it to one other idea because it has sort of emerged over time with us. Okay, this is another Ricks College conversation. A long time ago a friend asked me, she said, “You know, Christ is at the center of the temple and at the center of the Gospel. There are pictures of Christ in all the temples. Why doesn’t the temple teach the story of the life of Christ? Why does the endowment teach the story of Adam and Eve?” What a great question. And I couldn’t answer it. And we kept thinking about it–the Religious Problems class continued. And what we came to after a while wasthat  the story of the life of Christ is the story of giving the Atonement. The story of Adam and Eve is the story of receiving the Atonement. And the whole temple experience is the developmental life story of Adam and Eve. It isn’t all at once. It’s development. It’s the process. So whether it’s this the seed that I was talking about or what role does the Adam and Eve story play, these are all the basic motifs and  the most fundamental patterns of the Gospel. And that’s why by receiving the Atonement, we can learn from our experience without being condemned by it. So we can learn from the complexity without  it and the atonement helps us with that/ Faith Is Not Blind: I have one final question: what do you hope readers get from reading your book? Elder Hafen: I think  we try to say in the book what’s really in our hearts. We believe it  because we’ve  been there personally. And  people we love have been through some of these adventures of trying to find their way. Our hearts go out to them now because they’re ashamed or they think they’re doing something wrong. It’s just hard to learn from experience. And that’s what we want to say: we’ve been there and we know this is hard and we’re cheering for you. We want to kind of throw them a line and send  a message to hang in there. Don’t quit because it gets hard. It’s like we told the BYU-Idaho students yesterday. We only discovered this in the New Testament account of the Resurrection recently. The wonderful women went to the tomb early in the morning on the first Easter. It was empty. And in the 24th chapter of Luke it says the women were “perplexed.” They see these two beings shining in the light who said to them, “He’s not here. Why do you seek for the living among the dead?” So they go tell the apostles. Luke tells us the apostles didn’t believe/ They thought these women were telling them “idle tales.” Once more I’m so thankful for the candor of the scripture. The apostles thought this was an “idle tale.” They didn’t believe it. And yet they’re sitting there with the other apostles, feeling perplexed when it says Peter and John and the other nine were still sitting there thinking, “What is going on here?” John didn’t know what was going on, but they felt to get up and do something. Sp they ran–they ran to the tomb. The picture we showed the students at the devotional is that great Eugene Burnand painting of Peter and John on Resurrection Morning. And they’re running and it’s as if their faces are saying “I believe, help thou my unbelief.” Nobody had been resurrected before. So to readers of this book, what we want to say is, “Get up and run and I don’t drop out. These are not idle tales.” Peter and John didn’t understand this but they gave Him the benefit of the doubt. There are things they didn’t understand and so they ran to Him. We live in a society that says,“If you don’t get it, give up– especially if it’s some institution; you can’t trust institutions.” But you can trust God and come unto Christ. It may be really hard and, yes, you may feel belief and unbelief. But it’s okay. Unbelief gradually becomes more belief. And we just want to say, “It’s okay. Hang in there.”  What’s that  line from Milton talking about how he hasn’t got respect for a “cloistered virtue?” He says a cloistered virtue is a virtue that “never sees her adversary.” No. You need to see the adversary. And that’s what we mean by “faith is not a blind.” I don’t mean we go and look for the adversary. It’s just–don’t be afraid of opposition or questions when they come because you will overcome adversity and the challenges of mortality by saying and persisting and overcoming. And the Lord will bless you and you will be stronger and better like Adam and Eve. It’s a way of seeing perplexity not as an obstacle but as the vehicle. It probably felt that way a little bit when Peter and John were running to the tomb. Where you think, “Why am I running?” This could be an obstacle to finding out that what I was hoping for isn’t true or what I’m going through is more challenging that I can handle. But it’s those moments where we’re stretched that can also be the moment that draws us even closer to God than we were before. Faith Is Not Blind: Thank you so much. Thank you for writing this book. And thank you for your message that you’re getting out to everyone. I appreciate it. Elder Hafen: Thank you, Eric. The post Bruce Hafen : My Story of How I Found My Own Testimony first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Jenae Nelson: From Homeless to Finding a Home with God by Faith is Not Blind https://www.faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Janae-Nelson-Faith-is-Not-Blind-Interview_-From-Homeless-to-Finding-My-Home-with-God.mp3 Conversion is not just a faith moment. It is the process that comes after the conversion story. As an agnostic and homeless sixteen-year-old, Jenae decided to search for her biological father. When she met him for the first time, he took her in and introduced her to his faithful, LDS family and to the Church. Jenae says, “It was almost a Saul to Paul reconversion, the way I caught on fire overnight.” “For me, that was the turning point. If my earthly dad—my biological dad—would go through so much effort to bring me into his life. . . I was so impressed that he would be willing to do so much for me that I thought maybe, just maybe that might be what God is like.” “I finally got the point where I thought, I have to find out, I have to know if this is real or not. Because I had given up on God. I remember the first prayer I said. It had been years and years since I had prayed. And I started off: ‘Heavenly Father, if you’re there, if you’re real, then please just let me know. And if you are, I will serve you for the rest of my life.’ And he answered that prayer.” But the story doesn’t end there. It never does. After getting married and having children, Jenae was diagnosed with lupus; she had questions about doctrinal issues; she experienced difficulties with a church leader. Jenae confesses, “I felt guilty if I doubted. . .but things weren’t as simple as I had thought.” So she stripped her testimony down to the basics and tried to piece it all back together, starting with her relationship with God and His love for her. As she rebuilt and restructured her testimony, the pieces of truth and love gradually fell into place. And when she discovered that she knew the essential truths of the Gospel, she returned to God again. Jenae concludes: “Just like I told the Lord, ‘Once I know, I’m yours forever. This is the place now, forever for me.’” The post Jenae Nelson: From Homeless to Finding My Home with God first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

  Linnette: My Reconversion and LGBTQ Identity by Faith is Not Blind https://www.faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Linette-Faith-is-Not-Blind-Interview.mp3 For years, Linnette felt that she had to choose between her faith and her sexual identity. But eventually she found a way to strengthen her relationship with God while still identifying as a lesbian. Linnette’s story will offer hope, understanding, and inspiration to those who wonder how they can reconcile their questions about faith and LGBTQ+ identity. The post Linnette: My Reconversion and LGBTQ Identity first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

    You never “arrive” at a testimony. You’re constantly building it. It’s not a present-wrapped box. It’s a house you’re building, and you continue to do remodeling and refurbishing. Kate expected her faith to be something that was easy to maintain, but her expectations caused her to experience confusion and frustration when she started to have questions. She tells her story about navigating uncertainty with honesty and hope in a way that will make you want to share it with all of your friends.   The post Kate Barker: How My Questions Strengthen My Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Christian: A Modern Prodigal Son–A Story of Redemption and Reconversion Christian shares his remarkable story about leaving the Gospel at a young age and what prompted his return to the Church years later. He speaks openly about what led him away from the Church and then shares the incredible story of what led him to return to his family and to the Church and to then choose a life of complete spiritual devotion. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “The Lord really can’t save us without our freely chosen initiative, energy, desires, and wholehearted participation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink it. . . The Savior offers the grace of His saving blessings only as we willingly participate in our own deliverance by choosing to believe Him, then by exerting all our strength to follow Him.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 10 “Choosing to Believe,” p. 87) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I’m Eric d’Evegnee and today we’re here with Christian Mawlam. Christian, welcome. Christian Mawlam is a communications professor at BYU-Idaho. Christian, could you give us a little bit of background about yourself?   Christian: I’m from northeast of England, so County Durham. The town is Billingham in the top-right of England. And I grew up there until I was about eleven and then moved to the Midlands–that’s around the Birmingham area–for about almost another 10 years, and then found myself back in the north east of England.   Faith Is Not Blind: You lived there until you moved to Idaho?    Christian: We’ve been in the States now, myself, my wife and our kids–four then and five now. My wife and I, we moved here about 5 years ago, give or take. So in September it will be five years   Faith Is Not Blind: And enjoying it so far?   Christian: Yeah. It’s not bad. We like it a lot. I mean, don’t get me wrong, there’s lots of things that you miss about the place where you are from. I usually say to people who want to tie me down that say, “Tell us what’s better, tell us what’s worse.” I just say, “It’s different.” I don’t see that as a cop out. It’s just really good for where we’re at now as kind of a young family at the beginning of middle age, I like to think. But that’s kind of where we’re at.  It’s good. We really love it here. Fantastic people. We do miss the people back home, but this is lovely, too.    Faith Is Not Blind: So tell us a little bit about the foundation of your testimony growing up in England. Your parents were members of the Church. Tell us a little bit about the formation of your testimony.   Christian: So my parents were both converts to the church. My dad joined the church when he was a young boy. On his side of the family they had aunts and uncles who were members of the Church, or at least aunts. And there was even a portion of the family who had joined the Church and actually moved over to the western states down in Utah and are still there. His dad had died when he was young, when he was a little boy. And then his mother married again. When she married again, she married a member of the Church who was actually a second-generation member of the Church. His name was Joseph Nephi. He was a fantastic guy, the only grandfather I knew. So that was my dad’s side. Then, on my mom’s side, she joined the Church when she was street contacted in Stockton Town Center, I think when she was about 17. And so she and a few of her friends joined around that time in that kind “young single adult environment.” As they grew up, they got to know each other and hit it off.    And I’m one of 6 kids. I’ve got a younger brother and four older sisters, and it was a very happy growing up in the northeast of England in a Latter-day Saint home. We always knew that Church was a big part of what we did–you know, Home Evenings and that kind of that kind of thing. It wasn’t necessarily that I was remembering what we talked about–it was always a “what’s for the treat” kind of thing. You know, what’s the incentive? We’d sing songs and I can remember it was lots of fun though.  It was a fun home. Just the way that my parents were, I knew this was something that meant a lot to them and so that was that. That was kind of my formative foundation. But notwithstanding that, when I was a teenager I was quite a willful boy, as all of my siblings are as well. I think that we’ve all got kind of big opinions about ourselves. I don’t know whether that was because we were fighting for our respective corners as children in a big family, or it was just the nature of our personalities. I think it was a bit of a mixed bag of those kinds of contributing factors. But throughout my early teen years I started really not to be that into Church. I’d go because it kept my parents sweet. I thought, “Well, it’s better not to kick up a fuss. It’s better to get out of bed and show up.”  And I did have friends there. I was socially inclined to plenty of aspects of the Church. So that was that.   It was the early 90’s and the “rave scene” was what it was, so parties and good times were very much a pull and a draw for me. I was just more into that. And so notwithstanding this kind of nice spiritual grounding that I can see in hindsight–this foundation–the Church wasn’t something that played a big part in my life. I really wasn’t switched on to things very much spiritually.    Faith Is Not Blind: What’s interesting as we’ve done a few of these podcasts is that one of the themes that’s been present is for a lot of Mormons, especially people that were born into Mormon families or even part-member families, the Church is there. It’s there sometimes in the background, sometimes in the foreground, but it’s there. A lot of the children know that it means something to their parents, but there’s always this kind of movement, I think, in the spiritual maturation process, where a testimony needs to be one’s own at some point. There needs to be this moment where I think a disciple chooses to follow.    For you, you’ve got this really nice foundation with wonderful parents and siblings, and you’ve got this nice ward in England. But there’s a draw to this other scene that goes on–the draw towards other things. So tell us a little bit about what it was that drew you outside to some of those other things– the rave scene etc. And then how does that play a role in the formation of your testimony? How did you move on from that–and we all know  a lot of teenagers, or have even been those teenagers that get involved in different things–and what was it that brought you back to that testimony?    Christian: What attracted me to those alternative offers was that I’m quite the social creature. So I like being with my friends. I like having fun. I like to laugh. I like to joke. As dumb as it sounds, I like music a lot.  I like the dance music scene. I have a creative background–my vocation is creative. I’m involved in teaching video production to other people. And I used to like the narratives that would kind of fly in my head when I would listen to this music, as daft as that sounds now. But I still think that’s one of the reasons I enjoy music and listen to it now. I am as much about the lyrics and the stories that are told as I am about the music. But mainly it was the social aspects of the rave scene and that kind of engagement. But after a good solid five years of that kind of carrying-on, everything just started to lose its luster a little bit. I just wasn’t getting what I had been getting out of going out with friends and popping to parties and pub crawls. In fact, it just kind of wasn’t floating my boat anymore. And I kind of was like, “Is this what growing up is all about?” It was a bit of a downer for me. I remember thinking as a little boy, “There will never be a time when I will don’t play with toys.” I thought, “Adults have all of this disposable income, why don’t they just buy toys?”    But I kind of got to this state where I thought, “I’m just not that into this anymore.” I liked my friends, but I didn’t necessarily like who I was becoming. I was pretty self-centered by that time and quite sarcastic. I would do things to make my friends laugh and often it was at the expense of other people. There was a time when I was in high school when I was called out of the classroom to report to the Head of Year. That’s a big deal. It was even more of a big deal when I opened the door and my parents were sitting there. My dad has been called out of work and my mom is there and they are fuming. And it was the type of situation where the Head of Year is just going to let my parents speak and I’m going to be a witness to it. And my dad says, “It’s your mouth again, isn’t it?” And I was like, “Oh.” And that kind of summarizes the kind of trouble I used to get into. I was a smart mouth. Always with a comeback. Often with a put-down and it really wasn’t that clever. And you know me personally. I haven’t fully weeded that garden, but it needed to get squared away.   Faith Is Not Blind: That’s why I’m smiling.   Christian: I wasn’t happy with who I was and where I was, so I went up from the Midlands where I was living with my parents and I thought I’d just have one last kind of big shindig in the northeast of England. I had lots of friends there that I had grown up with that I was still really tight with. They were actually members of the Church. The crowd that I hung around down south with were not. So I went up for this last hurrah and it was really sort of a damp squib. It really didn’t push the buttons that I wanted it to. And I just found myself kind of adrift, really lacking purpose. So I thought, “What can I do?” This is where an incidental but quite purposeful caveat needs to be made. It should be mentioned that years prior to my move–after I’d moved from the Northeast in 1989–a short while later, Elder Neal A. Maxwell came and visited the Stake and spoke to the members, especially to the parents. And he blessed them. He gave them an Apostolic Blessing and he said, “Your children who are all doing their own thing will come back. Too many of these parents might have felt like their children had “gone the journey.” And it’s so interesting to read the actual verbiage because he said, ”The things of the world that they find attractive will no longer be sweet to them anymore.” It’s interesting that I was kind of wafted up North and then I find myself back in that environment, within the catchment area of that particular particular blessing. And I found myself fulfilling that portion of the blessing, even if it was just kind of a bit-part in my own life. It was incredible. I was kind of like, “I don’t want to do this stuff anymore. I actually want to be somebody else.” And I hark all the way back to what my parents had. I can remember thinking, “What my parents have got and what they had when I was a little person is just lovely.”  And I thought, “That’s what I’d like to have.”    And so having never prayed–oh, I may have knelt by the bed with my parents, blessed the food, given the public prayer at Church, but as a young adult I had never given a proper prayer. And I can remember where it was. I remember it was in this little house where my friends were living. I was sleeping under the stairs–not like Harry Potter; it was open. People are going to think that that’s some kind of British thing. But I was because it was just a convenient spot. But I was on this little mattress and I pray all night. I can’t remember stopping praying. But in the morning I woke up and the windows were open, the sunlight was open. Figuratively speaking someone had pulled back the curtains and I thought, “So this is what it’s like. This is what the Holy Ghost is like that everyone’s been banging about for all of these years.” It was stark. And for someone who is aesthetically switched on, who likes the look of things, the whole world seemed different. The way that I viewed other people was different. It was a bit of a jubilee for quite  a few weeks. And naturally I’m like, “I am going back to Church. This is me. This is who I am.”    Faith Is Not Blind: But it must have been difficult. You describe how one of the things that got you into that scene was your love of music and being around those people and hanging out with them. You had that early rush of the Spirit and that confirmation, You’re on that path. But it must have had its difficulties as you were trying to pull yourself away from that.    Christian: Yeah. I literally kind of walked out my friends down there in the Midlands. I’ve subsequently gotten back in touch through social media connections. But after 20 years I haven’t had a proper sit down with them. I plan on doing that. But we’re into each other’s lives. They’re citizens now as well. They’re tax-paying people who aren’t living the dream anymore. They’ve got kids of their own. They’ve got families and stuff like that. I love seeing that. But at the time I sort of walked out on them and there was this sort of divorce from these friends and that hurt quite a bit. Even with my friends up north end it was different because they just thought, “Oh, Christian’s doing Church now.” And for the most part, they kept on doing their own thing, but I would still hang around them. And I remember kind of slipping back into a few old ways after a few weeks of being really profoundly upset with myself. Because erroneously, I had thought this was me, that I’d been given this kind of superpower and that I was saved essentially. And I was kind of distraught. I think I had smoked a cigarette or two or something and I felt terrible about it. And one of my friends who is still not back on the wagon (he must have had more Seminary than me), he said, “Oh, Christian. I don’t think you’re meant to sort it out in one day.” He starts to explain the process rather than the event. Notwithstanding, this was a milestone. This was a red letter day. Even in an Alma the Younger or a Paul kind of thing, they still have this journey to go on.   Faith Is Not Blind: Can I say this, though? That’s what I was thinking of with Alma the Younger and even with Paul when we get these moments in the scriptural narrative. But you know, they’re writing on these brass plates. They don’t have time to detail the process. So sometimes the way that the narrative unfolds can give us the sense that once the light turns on, “I’m all good. There aren’t any more challenges or growth with your testimony. And that’s what’s so interesting about your story. You have this moment, but that moment is almost like a carrot in front of you. Kind of like, “Okay. This is what it’s like. Now I need to work towards this as it guides me through the process.”     Christian: Absolutely. When I look back at it now I realize that that assurance is more of a projection of possibility rather than a moment where we can say, “I’ve arrived.” That’s what I do even now. Sometimes I think erroneously, “I have arrived.” And it simply isn’t the case. I’m still on the journey. Sometimes we pass through our experiences and we can say, “This is conclusive now. I can park that car. ” But no. The moment that we actually “park the car” and we say “this is how things are now” is when I’ve found that I run into trouble.    And this actually leads quite neatly, it segways. Because the natural thing for this “man of fire” is to go on a mission. So I put in my mission papers and at the same time the Lord is doing a number of my mates–quite a good handful of us in that Stake. That Maxwellian blessing is actually starting to bear some tangible fruit. I think it was always there working in the background. And notwithstanding the blessing from Elder Maxwell, this is Christ working in our lives. And so I go on a mission to Ireland. And then I received this letter from my mom and dad saying, “Robin and Chris, your mates, they’re coming to Ireland on a mission as well.” It was amazing.   But I had become quite the zealot. Before my mission, I was in a fantastic ward, the BIllingham Ward. I love it. The people there were so nurturing and so helpful. but I just wanted to know everything there was to know about the Church on a “head” level. I blazed through the missionary library–Jesus the Christ. Articles of Faith, Doctrines of Salvation. These were thick books really. I hadn’t read books before, I was more of a comics guy. But I loved it. I had a job before I went on a mission, and as I was working I’d be reading these book. I just devoured them. And one of the things about a lot of those books–Mormon Doctrine and the like–they do engender certitude. I mean think about the titles of them. Mormon Doctrine. Doctrines of Salvation. Gospel Doctrine. I suppose I started to soak up some of that kind of bias in a way. And it did make my viewpoint quite binary to an extent. So I went to Ireland on a mission. Not so much in the South where it is predominantly Catholic, albeit culturally to a large extent, but in the South it was “fight night” on the religious debate front because you had a lot of Protestants who really knew their scriptures inside out and they were really fixed in their position.    Faith Is Not Blind: And so did you feel all prepared and ready to go?   Christan: Yes. “Let’s get ready to rumble.” That’s what this was. Which is massively the wrong attitude. It’s like, “I’m here to represent Jesus Christ. So the first thing I’m going to do is tell you why and how you are wrong.” And that’s simply not the case, is it? I can even remember in my scripture study, if someone had said something in the street that was rattling my cage, I needed an answer for that. And so I’d come back and figure out an answer. And then it was like, “The next Evangelical I see tomorrow is going to get it.”    Faith Is Not Blind: So how did that change?    Christian: There were a couple of seeds that were planted actually on my mission. Christopher, one of my best mates in all the world, he and another friend started to call me–and they could get away with it because we were really good mates–and he told other people, “Call Elder Mawlam ‘Revered No Fun.’” Which kind of cuts deep because the real Christian is pretty happy-go-lucky. And yet I’d started to become this kind of hardcore binary, “in it to win it” kind of character. And we’ve discussed subsequently and Christopher even said, “Yeah. I think we became the paper we needed to get by on a mission.” Because it is such an extraordinary situation. I know you served in France for your mission and France and Ireland are quite similar by way of zero success. It was really hard. So a really successful day would be talking to someone for fifteen minutes in the street. And we’d probably just accosted them and they were kind. Don’t get me wrong. There were some successes. I mean, I didn’t baptize anyone on my mission. There were people I taught who went on to get baptized. But it was massively formative to me.    So, I come home from a mission and I’ve still kind of got this quite binary attitude. And I can remember that desire to know everything about the Church had continued. I was getting my hands into books. But then I come home and the internet is more of a thing. So onto the internet I do. And I’m looking up all of the juicy bits of Church History–polygamy, blood atonement–I felt like I needed to have a proper opinion on all of that. Anything sort of out there. I felt like I needed to be able to defend that sort of position. And I can remember one thing as being really quite formative for my understanding of Joseph Smith was that I got myself switched on by a couple of really good missionaries here in the ward in the northeast of England to Truman Madsen’s talks “The Prophet Joseph Smith.” I listen to it now and I appreciate that the target audience is college students. I was listening to it just the other day and as a Communications Professor who teaches propaganda, it sounds quite propagandist in the sense that it is this glowing report of the Prophet Joseph. At the same time, though, he’s not pile on all of the difficulties or concerns about Joseph Smith. He’s not going to do what Elder Maxwell calls, “plucking up daisies to see how the roots are doing.” Or say, “Here are some concerns for you, college kids.” But those talks had been quite formative for me. And one of the things that I’d remembered that Truman Madsen had acknowledged when comparing the characters of Joseph and Hyrum. He said that Joseph was actually more flexible when it came to his being malleable to different situations, whereas Hiram was a bit more fixed. Hyrum was a bit more orthodox. He was a bit most stayed and grounded and more kind of conservative. And I can remember thinking, “I need to be a bit more like Joseph in that regard.” And that is by no means a way to malign Hyrum. But that was a consideration. And I was all over the internet looking at all of these things. However, you didn’t have social media back then. The whole YouTube thing was not really a big thing. And so all of these things that young people come across now–like these huge, aggregated lists–that wasn’t something that I came across. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I was on some anti-Mormon sites. I soaked all of that up. But the funny thing is because I’d kind of engaged in that, when I come across those types of things now, it’s like, “These are just the same old cookies just kind of rolled up and packaged ever so slightly differently.”    But what stopped me being uber binary and to just calm down a little bit was my dad. He was the one that first said something to me.  had a bit of bash at my sisters for something. Reverend No Fun had emerged again. I had said something and it was obviously some weird reproof. I felt like I was the morality police and I needed to make an arrest or whatever. And my dad took me aside and said, “Son, this has got to stop. This got to stop.” And that was really tough because he’s “up here” for me. This is like one of the people in my life who I think has made it.” But then it caused me to reflect. Yeah, I’d seen my dad lose it before and make mistakes. He’s a really good guy. And it made me realize that life is a little bit more nuanced. And maybe there was a way to get back to something that felt a little more like the real Christian, something more sustainable, genuinely sustainable.    Faith Is Not Blind: One of the things I love about your story–there lots of things–but one of the things I love is that kind of moving away from the Gospel that you were raised in and then coming back to it. And oftentimes that’s where the stories end. And it’s like, “Oh look. Chris is back.” And it’s almost like the prodigal son ends that way. The prodigal son comes back and the other son is outside the party and then the father comes to see him and then the story ends. With your story, what’s really fascinating is that there is that coming back, but then there is an adjustment period. You get to see the process that we don’t get to see with Alma the Younger or in some of these other scriptural stories.   So my last question would be what advice would you give as a Dad yourself, just looking back at your life? What advice would you give to parents and then maybe even to young people about your whole process and about helping the people that you love and guiding them through or helping them with the process that you went through?   Christian: I think just be yourself. I mean, there’s a lot of things that we learn from one another, from role models and the like. And we can often think that we kind of need to copy what other people are doing in order to be accepted. Terryl Givens sometimes calls Latter-day Saints almost an ethnic or cultural group. And I think sometimes as a group or a tribe we can sometimes find ourselves thinking, in order to be accepted and to demonstrate competency, we need to tick off all of these boxes and that maybe we need to get the forms down.  Even in how people pray. I remember being corrected in how I prayed when I first came back to Church. I was praying and it wasn’t with the pronouns that they were expecting. It was, “Thank you very much.” And he said to me afterwards this chap, and he laid it on quite thick: “You’re praying wrong.” And it didn’t feel like I was praying wrong. So that was a little tension between what’s expected socially and culturally and what was in my heart. And so that didn’t jive with me. Even after my dad had spoken with me, it took time. But again it’s a process and not an event. But I  found myself becoming a little bit intolerant of a kind of orthodoxy in the Church. And it made me try to be a little bit more free-form, a little more flexible.   But then I realized, “Hey. When you went through being who you were as a teenager and when you went back to Church, you kind of went guns blazing into this hyper-orthodoxy. Try not to become this raving person who has just swung to the other end of the spectrum.” It’s this kind of central middle ground. Because life, the universe, and everything is nothing but a shared space.  Even just developing the capacity to get along with each other and to be understanding and empathetic, even with your kids. My parents were really good at being hands off as much as they could be. Don’t get me wrong, there were “sitting downs” and “tellings off,” which is massively appropriate. But it was always “without compulsory means.” One thing my parents have taught me is that “we don’t go to heaven in a headlock.” And so that’s one of those things that if you get there, it’s because you want to be there. So I know it’s difficult for parents, I know it’s tricky, but let people do what they want. Or help them to understand what they want and to identify really what it is that they want. I think as they do that, they’ll be more comfortable with themselves and the relationships that they’ll have will be richer, better, fuller. And there will be less form and more power in our lives.   Faith Is Not Blind: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. That’s a wonderful quote hearkening back to the First Vision–less form, more power. And that focus on what’s authentic and real about us. But not only just about us, but I think the most important thing that you said, the focus on the people that we love–what’s real about them and loving them. Thank you so much, Chris.   Christian: You’re very welcome. Cheers,mate. The post Christian: A Modern Prodigal Son–A Story of Redemption and Reconversion first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Sarah: Women’s Studies: Finding Women’s Value Sarah’s questions about women’s roles that were raised in graduate school taught her how spiritually enriching and multifaceted her role as a faithful woman could be. She shares how her education enhanced her appreciation of unique Restoration doctrines about women and motherhood. FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. This is Eric d’Evegnee and today we have Sarah with us. She normally does the interviews for us, but we thought today that we would interview her. And–full disclosure–she’s my wife. So this is a fun chance for us to be able to talk about some of the things we’ve been discussing on the podcast. So welcome, Sarah.   Sarah: Thank you. It’s really good to be here on the other end.    Faith Is Not Blind: So tell us a little bit about your background.   Sarah: I grew up in a family that I think in a lot of ways was sort of I like–I like to think of it as  “the classroom experiment.” My parents met in a classroom where they were taking a class called “Your Religious Problems” at BYU where they openly discussed questions about the gospel and pursued ideas. So this classroom was sort of transformed into my home environment. Being raised in my home, we did all the normal things like scripture reading and Family Home Evening, but my parents very deliberately asked us questions about how we felt about things. I never felt like the gospel either had to be true or not true. I felt like it was very safe to ask questions and to respond to questions. And in that way, I think it was nice to sort of see it from my own experience. It was non-binary thinking home. It was very safe and very open. And not that it was all just cerebral and that we were all just discussing questions all the time. It was also a place that was full of love. And I think the love was made manifest in the open-mindedness. It was sort of braided together with the questions and the love and the safeness.   Faith Is Not Blind: Almost like the love allowed for the questioning to happen–that things were open because everything felt safe and secure.    Sarah: Yes. One thing that was really fun about my childhood is that my mom was the Primary Chorister when I was 11. So in the private sphere of our home, there was the safety, but then at Church, here was the same person who had asked me questions and had wanted me really to fully express myself even if I wasn’t sure. And she was leading the songs in Primary. And I specifically remember when I was 11 and she was the chorister, and the kids in my class were the tallest ones in Primary. We were about to go into Young Men’s and Young Women’s and we towered over everyone. Some of the other kids didn’t like to sing the songs. They were sort of above all that. But, maybe partly because my mom was the chorister, I loved singing those songs and I felt my mom’s love of the music and of the songs. But it wasn’t just that, it was the lyrics. One of the first times that I remember feeling the Spirit and knowing that it was the Spirit was when we were singing a specific song in Primary, which was a song about love. It was “Where love is, there God is also. Where love is, I want to be.” And my mom was up there on her tippy-toes just leading with her hands with all the energy of heart and I felt it. And I knew I wanted that love and that kind of experience for the rest of my life. Faith Is Not Blind: Wow. So that’s a real kind of unity between the home and the Church. They sort of bleed into each other. Or a better metaphor would be that they were interwoven–that what you’re being taught at home fits in with what you see happening at Church. And that person that you see at home, you see her at Church and doing the same thing and that helps to really strengthen your testimony.  So I know you were born and raised in Utah and you spent some time in Idaho always around lots of other members and you have that experience you just described. What other experiences have led to your personal testimony of the Gospel?   Sarah: It’s interesting to think about it because we ask people these questions for the Podcast and so you think to yourself, “Well, how would I answer that question?”  And it really does come down to the public sphere vs. private sphere. Because in the private sphere I felt like I had a testimony. I felt like I knew God. My testimony was simultaneously sort of stretched and grown when I realized I wanted to be a mom like my mom and I wanted to teach my children and then I had this revelatory experience where I felt like I should serve a mission. At that time, there weren’t a lot of sister missionaries going on a mission, so what happened was I would tell people I wanted to serve a mission, and it was this very private thing that I was sharing. And what they would say was, “Well, you don’t have to go on a mission. You can just stay home and get married. No one would require that of you.” And I was a little surprised because in my home it was perfectly acceptable, but what I found in the larger Church culture was that me wanting to share the love of the Savior as a missionary might not be as acceptable. So it was the first time where I saw–you know we always talk about “the gap” in Faith Is Not Blind. There was a gap between how I perceived that I could live my testimony and the expectations of other people.    Faith Is Not Blind: It’s interesting the way you described that question. I mean, it almost sounds like the assumption of the question is that motherhood and serving a mission are mutually exclusive. It’s not explicit and it may not be completely intentional, but it almost sounds that way. So instead of saying, “Wow. That’s really great that you want to serve a mission,” the responses were, “You may not have to,” which which is a really interesting way to respond. So your testimony sort of rubbed up against the sort of culture where you thought “I’m not quite sure I understand why that decision is different in public than how it is in my home.” How did you work your way through that particular question?   Sarah: I think a lot of it was that I was an English major and loved reading and loved stories. What helped me the most was finding the story of Abish in the Book of Mormon. This was partly because Abish is a woman. I love that she’s one person. She was a Lamanite and a woman and she was a servant. So in that culture, she had three strikes against her. But looking at her story, I noticed how and she was a missionary.  Before my mission, I hadn’t even seen her really or I guess recognized her enough to be conscious of her story. So on my mission in my missionary scriptures I circled her name and wrote “This is a sister missionary!”  And I thought, “How can I follow her example?” And what I realized in her story was that she reached out to people in private–she went from house to house. But then she also found value in the court and that helped me see–like you were saying earlier–it didn’t have to be mutually exclusive. I could have value in the private sphere in homes–in my own home hopefully one day, but that I could also, like Abish, have a lot of value and have a voice in public and make a difference. And I wanted to be able to do that. So when I got back from my mission I prayed about it and the way that I recognized the Spirit was that it felt like love. Now, it’s not always comfortable, but I wanted to feel that feeling of love. And then I felt like I should go to graduate school, which surprised me.   Faith Is Not Blind: Because it took you one step further, right? You’re back home and then graduate school almost feels like another step away from the home–if you think of it as a binary.   Sarah: Of course I wanted to get married. I wanted to be a mother more than anything else and going to graduate school–even though it would seem like it would take me away from that–I can say that it showed me how not only to be a better teacher, but to be better in the home once I finally was able to have kids. But that tension was really difficult because in graduate school I felt like I should study women’s stories. And up to that point, that was one of the most painful things for me to do in terms of my relationship with God because I realized how painful women’s stories had been in the past. I remember leaving a class where we were learning about some of the painful things that happened to women throughout history and I went home and I dropped to my knees and prayed about it. And God tutored me through it, which was so interesting because it seems like when we have these moments where our faith feels like it’s in crisis a sacrifice has to be made of some kind. And God sort of reached out to me He said, “Don’t sacrifice your faith. Sacrifice the pain. Let me teach you, Let me teach you a little bit better,” And again that was surprising because I was learning about my role as a woman in a very private intimate moment with Him as my Father.   Faith Is Not Blind: If I can back up just a second, you talked about how the tension was really difficult in graduate school. What did that feel like for you? Because it connects with what you’re learning, right?  As you’re on your knees praying about these stories, about understanding the roles of women, what was that tension like for you?   Sarah: The tension was a constructive tension in that it helped me see that where I was didn’t necessarily have to be where I was going to stay. There needed to be some movement. And that the movement didn’t have to be away from God. It could be towards understanding. And that that understanding was going to come through education and through study and through studying women’s stories even more. Through writing my Master’s Thesis about women’s stories and about looking for women stories, I started to understand how I could take that tension and instead of becoming bitter because of it, I could help other women value their stories. I could teach other women how God valued their stories.    Faith Is Not Blind: Yeah. I really love that because it ties back to Abish I think in a lot of ways.  Like you said, her ability to help people from home to home but then also work in the court.  I mean, think about how central she is in that part of the Book of Mormon. Because, you know, it’s interesting. Everybody is passed out because they’re unconscious except for her. Because she had been taught by her father, she’s able to recognize what the situation is and go from home to home. So it’s that lesson again about how important women’s stories are, which is hard because they’re not always front and center. Often we think of Nephi and Lehi’s family where we know there were women included but they’re not really talked aside from Sariah. So what did you gain from that graduate school experience and information? How do you feel like those things helped you in your future as a mother or as a teacher at the University?   Sarah: I like that you said that Abish was the only one who was conscious, she was the only one that was aware. I think being aware and being conscious is a big part of it. I feel like if I’m aware of history, if I’m aware of women’s stories, if I’m aware of my story–that’s going to help me wake everybody up to the importance of these female stories, these female experiences. And ironically me being aware of those public stories and Abish’s influence in the public sphere has helped me in callings with other women, certainly in Relief Society callings and in Young Women’s callings–to be able to help them see that they don’t have to be in the limelight to have value and that their value is unconditional, but that their voice does need to be consciously developed. They need to find ways to share their story, even if they feel uncomfortable. Or if they perceive that they’re less valuable, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s true. But I learned that I could ask them to share their stories and show them that they are certainly valuable beyond their bodies or beyond beauty. And graduate school taught me that.    And then even as a mother. What was so interesting about that, too, is feeling like I wanted to be a mother and I wanted to have as many children as God wanted me to. I think being a missionary and being in graduate school and doing those things in the public sphere helped me feel so valuable that I knew I could sacrifice to have children. It’s that primary song again: “Where love is, I want to be.” And I wanted to have children who hopefully would be raised in a home like that, where love was. But what I found when we were first able to get pregnant was that pregnancy was so difficult. I was much sicker than I thought I would be. I felt useless. I remember lying on the couch and we were in our little newlywed apartment. People would walk by the window and I would think, “How is the world populated?” There were people walking around and every one of them had a mother who felt like this. And I thought, “How in the world does the world keep going? How was it populated?” And in that moment what I learned was that the strength that I had gained through being educated and through finding my value helped me in that very most private of private spheres–with a pregnancy–where no one could help me through it. I was all alone. And again, it was almost like that moment when I had been praying about women’s issues except this time I  was praying about my issue as a woman. And what happened was, because I had the courage and because I had learned that God would reach out to me when I wanted to do the things that He asked me to, in that very private moment, He taught me that the Atonement could help me get through a pregnancy.    We have seven kids. . . as you know.   Faith Is Not Blind: I’ve noticed.   Sarah: With each one of them, I just felt like this: with your faith, you’re approaching an altar and you need to put something on it. So you could put your faith on it and sacrifice your faith. Or you put yourself on it.  And, for me, I learned that the Savior would help me and be so close to me like that it was a private sphere–the private sphere of the Atonement. And that He would strengthen me every day when I got up and I thought that I could not make it through one more day of sickness. It became sort of like this privilege to be in a private sphere with Him.   I also want something here. I think it’s interesting that you asked me how what I learned in graduate school would apply to some of the things that were talking about with women’s issues.  I noticed how studying about women and their stories in graduate school helped me appreciate the sublime beauty of the Restoration and what it offers us in terms of a unique perspective about women. I think of the restored doctrine of Eve. We named one of our daughters Eve because of this new understanding about Eve. We know about the Fall being a blessing. We know that Eve was a hero in that story and that she was able to experience joy because of the Fall. And I don’t think I fully appreciated that before I had had some of the tension, before I had had some of the questions about my role as a woman and my value as a woman. It’s aesthetically astounding to realize that our Church is the only one that believes that about Eve. We believe in a Heavenly Mother. We believe women that women have authority with their husbands and they are able to appreciate and be blessed by the priesthood fully. And that perspective really helps to ground me and to understand how beautiful the restoration is in terms of what it does for women.   Faith Is Not Blind: I love listening to that story. The arc of your story as you just told it is that idea that anything good that we earn, any blessing that we have, we don’t have to lose. The things that we gain through experience and through drawing closer to God can stay with us. Whether it’s graduate school or a mission or motherhood, all those things can combine together. In your story originally–maybe when you were a teenager–it felt like a fork in the road, but it’s not really a fork. But it makes me think of that scripture from Romans: “All things work together for the good of them who love God” regardless of your path . And your path kind of weaves in an interesting way through both the private and the public sphere. But all of it together–much like Abish’s story–brings you closer to God. My final question would be, what advice would you give to younger women who are facing some of those decisions about missions and about marriage and maybe even graduate school? Those decisions that they have are really significant decisions, especially for women in that private public sphere? I would imagine that it could feel like you’ve got to go one way or the other. What would you say to women that are younger than you or what would you even say to your younger version of your younger self?    Sarah: Well, that’s an interesting question because I don’t know that I’m qualified to give advice to women. But I can just speak as myself. I just keep thinking of Alma 32. Ironically, I was listening to it as I was stirring something on the stove. I realized that we talk so much about “planting the seed,” but the people who heard that story had been cast out of the synagogue, cast out of the public sphere. And I know as a woman sometimes it’s easy to feel that way, like you’re cast out of the synagogue. Alma stops preaching to everybody else and focuses on them. And what he says was “even if only have a desire to believe, plant the seed.” And what I noticed when I was listening to it that I hadn’t noticed before was that he’s not necessarily talking about only planting one seed. He’s talking about planting a multiplicity of seeds. It’s a lot of seeds. And some of them will grow up to be trees. And I was imagining it as this tree with all these other trees around it. The most central figure, the most central symbol, is the Tree of Life, which is the Atonement. But there are all of these other trees too. And so I feel like I can plant all the trees that God would ask me to, but that I just need to make sure that it is the fruit of the Tree of Life that I am most centered on. Not that every woman needs to do everything in the public and private sphere. I just think it is private. It is so personal. But when I have centered myself and my testimony on the fruit of the Tree of Life, then all of these other trees get to grow. And I get to become everything–well, beyond everything–that I hoped that I would be. And I think I feel really blessed and lucky to have a whole garden full of trees.   Faith Is Not Blind: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Thanks for being here. I hope you enjoy being in the other chair.   Sarah: I don’t know if enjoyment is the right word, but it was fun talking to you. The post Sarah: Women’s Studies: Finding Women’s Value first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

    by Faith is Not Blind https://www.faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/BETH-BARKER-FINB-INT.mp3 Like many teenagers, Beth rolled her eyes at the way the Law of Chastity was taught in her home and at Church, She just didn’t understand why it was such a big deal. As a young adult in England, she didn’t want to be different from her friends, so she decided she was going to make her own choices rather than following the advice of her parents and church leaders. Beth’s story is about the mistakes we all make, whether we’re the teenager, the parent, or the leader. Beth’s story is about how we can all learn to repent, whether we’re the teenager, the parent, or the leader. Her honest story about chastity teaches us that it’s never too late to repent. And it’s never too late to forgive.       The post Beth Barker: Chastity and Choosing to Learn from Our Mistakes first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Emily: Being Divorced in a Family-Centered Church Emily talks about how her expectations were seriously challenged because of traumatic experiences in her childhood. She also discusses how her difficult divorce and the judgments that accompanied it caused her to create complex versions of both faith and charity. Emily’s story is told with both sweetness and wisdom, and she’ll teach you how to see your own suffering and the suffering of others through a unique, insightful lens. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “[O]ur memories of Kirtland can be enriched by our later, perhaps more turbulent experiences. The very meaning of our earlier witnesses will grow richer with the perspective of both time and complexity. . . That we once saw so clearly is our witness that we can again see clearly, now with even greater depth, in the very midst of —or perhaps because of—our afflictions.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 8 “When Will the Angels Come?” p. 68) The post Emily: Being Divorced in a Family-Centered Church first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Fiona Givens: My Personal Crucible of Doubt   https://www.faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/FIONA-GIVENS-FINB-INT-PT-1-REMASTERED.mp3 Fiona Givens is a scholar, an author, a wife, a mother, and grandmother. And her faith is anything but blind. In this vulnerable interview, Fiona gives us a rare and honest look at her emotional conversion, and then shares why she loves the Gospel despite the difficulties she has faced because of her beliefs. The post Fiona Givens: My Personal Crucible of Doubt first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Erica: How a Questioner Learned that She Belongs and Can Thrive in the Church   Since she was little, Erica has always appreciated the value of asking sincere religious questions. Unfortunately, she has experienced a variety of responses to her questions, some of which made her feel like perhaps she didn’t belong in the church. Erica shares how her relationships with others have been both challenged and ultimately strengthened as she has learned how to use the process of seeking answers to her questions to develop her relationship with her Heavenly Parents.   FULL INTERVIEW: Faith is Not Blind: We’re glad that you’re here. We’ve talked a lot about questions and the difficulty with questions, but this story is about the difficulty that we have with other people responding to the way that we ask questions and that can be uncomfortable.We want to help people with that and we will get there. But let’s back up a little bit and and talk about before you went through those questions and that part of your life–and I think is it’s okay if it’s a continual part. But before you got there, what was your experience like in the church with your family and in your early sort of primary and young women years? Erica: I grew up in Salt Lake City so it was a predominantly Latter Day Saint environment. Big wards. There weren’t a lot of youth in my ward actually, but you know just everyone around me was a member of the church. My parents knew their children very well; they knew we were all very inquisitive. We were all really into academics, very career oriented and so we all kind of grew up asking so many questions. I remember going to church–I think I just graduated primary, so it’s probably 12 or 13, and I was in a Sunday school class and I don’t remember what the question was that it was something was just really bothering me and I felt like it just really didn’t make sense. And so I was raising my hand and asking and it pertained to the subject matter of the class, but the teacher just shut me down and said you know you really just need to have more faith, you know you need to pray about it and that was as a 13 year old–that was not satisfying. So I remember going home and asking my parents that question and they sat me down and facilitated an open conversation and were really able to soothe that storm raging inside of me. FINB: So there was a contrast between how your questions were perceived and received at church and at treated at home? So how did you navigate that so that you felt like you could still go to church and feel safe asking questions? Erica: A lot of times I didn’t want to go to church. I remember there was one time when I was so frustrated at church that I walked out. I think it was like my 15th birthday and I asked a question and I just was shut down and members of the class were like, “Erica why do you always ask questions? Why are you so disruptive?”  And I left. I was like fine, if you don’t want me in the church I’ll leave. And my mom came after me actually and said, “You know why it’s important to go to church because it’s not about them. It’s about God. So come back. You can sit by me and you don’t have to talk to anybody else. We can talk about your questions when we get home, but just like focus on your relationship with God. . And so that was kind of like the motto of my whole religious experience. It’s not about other people–it’s about your relationship with God. Because there are so many times when I felt like I was ostracized by the people in the community for asking questions or for thinking differently or for pointing to something in church doctrine or policy and saying I don’t agree with that and here’s why and  being told that I I don’t belong or that I should have more faith or pray more. So just I guess focusing on my relationship with God and not how other people are perceiving it. Which is way easier said than done. FINB: I think sometimes the motive for the questions can make a difference and it sounds like you weren’t asking questions. It was about God. You weren’t trying to be disruptive. What was motivating you to ask the questions? Erica:  I mean, I think it’s easy at least for me until I fall into a trap of like, “I’ve studied this more than they have, so let me ask a question to like trip them and get ‘em.” But really the motivation–like if you take a step back and think about what the motivation actually is–it really was just trying to feel at peace with your own religion. You know, in Utah everyone thinks they know everything about the church. I had a lot of non-member friends that would say, “Well, so-and-so’s a member of the church and they do this, and so-and-so thinks this way. What do you think?” So I felt like I really had to know what I believed. And just trying to figure out what I really did believe because sometimes it was contrary. FINB: And with that motivation of asking questions so that you could really get to know God better, how did that make you feel to be ostracized? Erica: Heartbreaking. It’s just heartbreaking. I mean, I remember I’ve always had kind of a difficult relationship with the Proclamation to the World on the family. When I was in Young Women’s and I was expressing to a leader that I really wanted to go into a certain career and I wanted to work. And she pulled up the Proclamation and said, “No. Women need to stay in the home.” And so I felt like my own religion was telling me different things than what my heart was telling me  and what my Patriarchal Blessing was telling me.  There’s just this dissonance that was created. FINB: So there was dissonance between you and other people, but also sometimes what the perceived doctrine was. And with and with that example with the Proclamation on the Family, what did you learn that the Proclamation actually said? Because unfortunately what that later told you is is not what it said. It’s her interpretation. How did you learn to look more closely at the actual doctrine? Because it would have been easy for you to say, “Well, if that’s what that says then I’m out of here” or “I don’t I don’t want to do that” or to have that dissonance continue. How did you look more closely so that you could find reconciliation between your feelings and the Proclamation? Erica: I mean, it’s taking me a while I think to find that reconciliation. For a long time I think I would just shut it out and say that I don’t I don’t want to talk about the Proclamation. I don’t agree with it. I think years even, I struggled teaching it on my mission. But I think studying it out with the intent of, I do want to know what this actually says rather than studying it out to find the things I disagree with, which is so much easier and sometimes it’s even gratifying. Like, yeah,  I disagree. I get this fire raging, but in the end that doesn’t lead me anywhere. In the last few months I’ve been able to study it out and think, “Okay, what is it actually saying?” I mean the proclamation says a lot about how individual circumstances can change. And then the focus in the church recently about personal revelation has been huge. And especially empowering women to have voices. I think finally now I can say I’m at a good place with it. Where like I can have it in my home. But there was a while where I thought, “That’s just something in the church I don’t agree with.” FINB:  But that individual application is so important. Let’s talk about how even recently and after your mission it has been difficult to feel like you could comfortably be yourself. We to talk about applying the gospel to yourself and the proclamation talks about individual circumstances, but what conflicts have you found with trying to be your individual, faith-filled, question-asking self in adult relationships? Erica: That’s a great question. I got home from my mission and was kind of in that you know that missionary bubble they talk about, where like you’re just so happy and everything is great. And then I felt like my missionary bubble popped pretty quickly when I was realizing that I still have all these questions and the church is complex and that life isn’t black and white. So I attend Brigham Young University and so I moved down to Provo. I was living with a mission companion and I started dating. A few months later I started dating a young man who I just was crazy about. We both valued intellectual conversations and we both liked the same things. I thought , “Okay, I’ve never been one to want to get married young, but if he’s the one, he’s the one”. So we kind of started talking about our future, But I remember General Conference came around and there were just some talks I really just struggled with. I might not have been in the best mindset listening to them, but there were some things that I felt like didn’t match up with my own personal belief. And as I was expressing it to him–and sometimes very headedly–he just really struggled to understand where I was coming from. I think he just had never come across somebody that questioned what the prophets were saying. And it was hard for him to understand that I still loved the prophet and I had no problems staying faithful. But he ended up breaking up with me over that and that was so hard because I felt like, “Great. Iif the man that I wanted to marry doesn’t even think I belong in the church then who am I to even think I should go to church? I still went, but I think something inside me just kind of snapped where it was like, “I don’t think I belong here. So that was really hard. But I kept going. Sometimes it becomes just like, “I have to go to church” and it’s what your friends are doing. But  deep down I really did believe, and so I kept going to church and I eventually was able to find my way back to those simple beliefs–the foundation of everything. FINB:  How did you do that without feeling like you couldn’t be yourself? Erica: I know. That’s so hard. I think reaching out to people and being really vulnerable about what I was going through. When you go through break up, everyone wants to know how you’re doing. S people would say, “Well, why did you guys break up? You were so happy.”  And I would just explain that we just don’t view the church in the same way. And some people that would go, “So one of you is losing your faith?” FINB: It’s interesting that that’s the natural response–that one of you must have completely lost your faith. Erica: Some people were saying that with the fact that you two broke up over the church must mean that one of you isn’t faithful. I wanted people to know I think we’re both faithful. It’s just that I have all these questions and I still love the church, but I’m not afraid to talk about it. FINB: How did people respond to that? Because that’s a fairly nuanced way of thinking. Erica: A lot of people were very sympathetic. But a lot of people I think were saying, “Well, you guys never would have been happy anyway, so I can understand why that happened.”  But it’s hard. It’s hard to hear. But yes, I think it is a pretty new idea. But talking to people, I realized that there were a lot of people in the same boat that just weren’t as vocal about their experience. FINB: Did you being vocal help them vocalize it as well? Erica: Yeah. I had a roommate that said, “I’ve never thought about these things before until I met you and I realized that church is a lot more complex than we think. It’s not just the primary answers, and within the primary answers there is nuance. I definitely think it helped people for me to be vocal about it and also helped me kind of heal from hurt of being almost betrayed. FINB: Will you share what happened in that relationship? Erica: Whenever I talk about the relationship in the context of the story of how we broke up, people are always shocked it worked out. What happened was that there was a change in the temple endowment ceremony and I heard about it. I’ve always loved the temple and so once I heard about the change–I think it happened January 1st– I was at the temple January 2nd. FINB: There were a lot of people at the temple on January 2nd. That’s what happens. Erica: So I went and I just felt so validated, almost like I was hoping for change and struggling with concepts and then there was change. It can happen! And I think sometimes because there hasn’t been a lot of structural change within the church since the 1950’s we’ve kind of been lulled into the sense of “this is the doctrine.” And so the fact that there was change was just so validating to me and it was very healing. So I actually posted on Instagram and I just posted a picture of the temple and shared how for years I’ve I really struggled with the church but I’m still here and I love God and I love the prophet and today I was really reminded of know how beautiful the gospel is and that we can hope for change and it’s okay to hope for change.  And so the boy that I was dating actually saw my post and I think it really hit him that it’s okay to ask questions and hope for change. So we actually ended getting back into contact and talking to each other and working through some things. And that was about a year ago and we’re actually engaged. FINB: When you think about the restoration. . . I mean, maybe the changes have slowed down, but when you think about the number of changes that were constantly happening in the early years and that our church is built on change and restoration, how wonderful that this relationship could be restored. Erica:  it I think it was good for me to have somebody that hadn’t questioned too much because he would kind of calm me down and and point out my motivation and say, “Erica why are you so angry about this? Let’s talk about what about it makes you upset.” I do credit a lot of where I am now spiritually to him. So he learned to ask more questions, but I’ve also learned to almost like be okay with not having an answer question. It’s a good partnership. FINB: You mentioned the word “partnership.” In the Proclamation on the Family if there’s a phrase in there that says “as equal partners” and that can mean a lot of different things based on the couple. But let me ask you one last question. You mentioned that with the experience in the temple that you saw the beauty and the hope even with the questions. Not despite the questions but with them. How would you recommend that people who have questions can have a Spirit of Hope even when things might seem hopeless? Erica: Yeah. For me, I had to hold on to the things that I understood. I knew that God the Father existed. I’d had personal experiences with Heavenly Mother. I had a good relationship with Jesus Christ. So holding on to that and thinking, “Okay, my heavenly parents and the Savior know where I am and they know what I’m thinking and they still love me.” So with that foundation I was able to go forward and ask the questions. If I hadn’t had that foundation I definitely think I would have left the church. FINB: How wonderful that your mom’s advice is ringing true. You did make it about God. And that’s what it’s all about. Thank you for your example. I hope that people will feel like they can ask questions and vocalize them and find beautiful relationships in the process. Erica: It’s hard. It’s so hard. But when you only make it past the hurt and the anger, and you realize that it’s about God, it’s it’s way better place to be. FINB: Congratulations and keep it up. Thank you. The post Erica: How a Questioner Learned that She Belongs and Can Thrive in the Church first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Janiece: How Becoming a Historian Helped Me Cope With Difficult Church History As a professional historian, Janiece describes the intertwining of her love of the Restored Gospel and her love for history. The challenge of her academic work on the Mountain Meadows Massacre helped her gain perspective and compassion. She shares her hard-won wisdom about how to engage with even the most complex aspects of Church history with both an academic and a faithful perspective. Further Reading in Faith is Not Blind: “Ambiguities, apparent contradictions, and paradoxes are all around us. . . :earning to accept those apparent conflicts long enough to work through them is an essential step in finding the simplicity that lies beyond complexity” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 5, “Productive Ambiguity,” p. 39) Transcript: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. My name is Sarah d’Evegnée.  Today I’m talking to Janiece and one of the reasons that I wanted to interview her is because in some of the research that we’ve done and a lot of the interviews that we’ve done, the issue of Church History has come up again and again. And I thought it would be helpful to have a historian who loves Church History and loves history in general talk to us about her faith and about how learning about church history actually strengthens her faith. So welcome. We’re glad you’re here.  Janiece: Thank you  Faith Is Not Blind: First of all, could I have you give a little bit of your personal background and then we’ll work up to your academic background? Janiece:  I grew up in California in the Bay Area. I went to BYU as an undergraduate, and well I guess I’m just transitioning into my academic background I suppose. But I served a mission in Argentina. My plan was to go to law school. I kind of felt like with my skill set, if I wanted to make any money that was probably a good choice. I came back from a mission–my Mission Presidents were both attorneys and I loved them both. But I came back and didn’t want to go to law school anymore. So I actually figured out what I wanted to do the week before I was supposed to graduate. I had plans to take a year off. I had a job lined up and I thought I’d just figure out what I wanted to do. But I kind of had this epiphany the week before I was supposed to graduate. And right in conjunction with that epiphany, I talked to the graduate director of the history master’s program at BYU who had been impossible to get ahold of and he magically answered his phone. And I decided that I wanted to do history. And I had not taken a history class at BYU. I was a political science major, so it wasn’t completely beyond the scope, but I felt really strongly about it.  My Religion Professor was Stephen Robinson and I took a number of classes from him after I came home. And he had said, “You know, have you ever thought about doing Church History?” And growing up in California, being a seminary teacher was calling, not a job. I had never really considered that, but amongst the other options I was kind of mulling that over in my head, and it was suddenly very clear to me that that’s what I was supposed to do. And so I went and begged them to let me take some history prerequisite classes to start to be prepared for a Master’s Degree. And then I moved into the Master’s Degree at BYU. Faith Is Not Blind: When you talk about it “just feeling right” to go into history, how would you describe that? How did you know and did it have anything to do with any earlier testimonies that you had? Janiece:Yes. Definitely. I think we all figure out how the Spirit speaks to us individually. And I think it’s something difficult because it’s unique for each of us. Growing up, I think 90% of the time when people talked about feeling the Spirit they would quote Doctrine and Covenants 9 and describing a sort of “burning in the bosom” or a “stupor of thought”and there was nothing in between.  And I had never felt something that I would describe that way. Since that time I read a talk of President Oaks saying, “I have never felt something I would describe that way” and that gave me great solace that I’m not alone. I only ever heard people talk about personal revelation in specific ways and I had had my own experiences that I would describe very differently. For example, Joseph Smith talks about “pure intelligence flowing unto you” and that makes sense to me. That’s how I feel sometimes I think. Sometimes I get very emotional. Sometimes the Spirit makes me hyper. I feel the Spirit in a lot of different ways and learning to recognize that when you’re a missionary and trying to get people to recognize the Spirit, that’s a really difficult task because we all experience it differently. I may know someone is feeling the Spirit, but I don’t know exactly what it feels like when they feel it. And for me it was kind of a progression. There were different points when I received answers.  My answer to go on a mission was one of those times. I was going to turn 21 (and back then I could go at 21) in January and it was my junior year at BYU. All fall semester I prayed and tried to get an answer, but it never felt right. it didn’t feel right saying “no” and it didn’t feel right saying “yes, I’m going.”  So I just decided, “Okay, I should go to another semester and I’ll figure it out next summer.” And then right before Thanksgiving I got my answer, and I think this is a pattern for me figuring out what I want to do with my life. And this experience set that pattern. I think another important thing for us to recognize is that the Lord will speak to us in a way that we are going to understand. And sometimes those patterns are repeated in our lives quite often. And the pattern that was set up with my decision to serve a mission is how I get answers. I struggle with something for a long time and then I get an answer very quickly. I woke up on a Sunday morning and I knew I needed to go on a mission. And this was the Sunday before Thanksgiving. I was in a Relief Society Presidency at the time or we had a meeting with the Bishop and he’s talking about different callings for the next semester and I said, “Yeah I think you need to fill my position.” He asked, “What’s going on?” That day I talked to him and I got my mission papers finished. I called my parents and I told them I was going on a mission. But I remember lying in bed thinking, “What if I don’t feel this way in the morning? What am I going to do if I don’t still feel this tomorrow?”  And the only way I went to sleep was telling myself Okay, you can undo these things that you’ve done. It’s going to be okay.” And that has kind of set a pattern for me in figuring out how I receive personal revelation. For what I wanted to do in terms of a career that moment has been really important to me.  I remember that spring before I started graduate school, I was taking a couple of those history prerequisite classes. I love spring at BYU. Everything is so green and you can actually have quiet moments on campus. And I remember walking on campus and just getting that feeling again, getting that reiteration that, “Yes. This is the right thing.”  And I have needed that because my route has been rather circuitous over the last several years until now. I have needed to remember that.” I think that as mortals we forget really easily. The Children of Israel had an issue with forgetting and we have an issue of forgetting. We have passed through the veil of forgetfulness and it’s always going to be hard for us. And maybe something that attracted me to history is that I believe that we don’t know how to perfectly replicate the past, but that we have opportunities to learn. I think the past can help teach us about ourselves.  Faith Is Not Blind: What I love about that whole story is that you use the word “pattern.” The pattern for you might be different from the pattern for somebody else and that is very historical. We can’t assume that our present will somehow repeat the past. It seems like you establishing that pattern of knowing how the Lord speaks to you before you chose to go into history helped you know how to deal with Church History, which is very beautiful. Sometimes a circuitous path can actually be helpful and beneficial.  So when you decided to go into Church History, how did you deal with some of the difficult issues?  Janiece: If you grow up in the Church, you have kind of a primary version of Church History where everything fits in these nice, neat little boxes with bows on top. Faith Is Not Blind: Which I think is good for primary children when you teach primary. It’s age-appropriate.  Janiece: But the problem is if we never progress after that.  And I think that some of the fault is with how the learning has been structured in seminary and institute classes in the past. But I think also some of it is on us, that we are not putting forth enough effort to get to a point where we have a more mature understanding. Faith Is Not Blind: So when would you say that you started to have that more mature understanding and did it mostly come from you seeking it out?  Janiece: I think it mostly came from scripture classes, particularly. Steven Robinson was a really important mentor for me. I read his book called Believing Christ and I think that it was a really critical time for me spiritually. I think that I was trying to save myself. I kind of always thought that if I worked just a little bit harder I would never have to repent, that I would never have to  go through that pain. I could just avoid that all together. And mortality doesn’t work that way. Sin is an important part of mortality–experiencing and repenting and being changed by the process.  You know the point of mortality is not just for us to go point A to point B in the quickest way possible. I think Robinson kind of opened me up to thinking about the gospel and grace in a very different way than I had it before. And so when I heard that I could take classes from him I was really excited. His classes were a really important blend between the academic and spiritual that I have tried to emulate. And those classes really opened up for me how to deal with some of the ambiguity in the Gospel. And just learning to think about scripture more deeply also is going to bring up some difficulties. And that prepared me to think about the history of the Church in a different way. One of my best friends went on a mission to Kirtland at the same time that I went to Argentina. And we both took a Church History class afterwards from somebody.who told really fantastic stories. But my friend who had served her mission in Kirtland would say to me, “It’s a really great story, but maybe it’s a little more complex than that.” I think that those things kind of prepared me to deal with history in a much more mature way and to deal with a much more complex narrative. Faith Is Not Blind: I think it’s interesting to hear the echoes of how you felt on your mission with thinking, “I need to save myself. I need to do everything myself.”  Because often we feel the need to have this pristine, perfect record, which is kind of what we expect from history. It seems that learning that sometimes it’s actually good to work through difficulties could help you when you started looking at Church History as well. Janiece: After I finished my Master’s Degree, I had changed my thesis topic rather late in the process. Faith Is Not Blind: There’s a theme there. Janiece: Yes. It’s that pattern again. And that should make me less frustrated with it when I’m in the middle of it, but it doesn’t. I finished a little late in the year and I was going to have a year before I could move on to a Ph.D program. And I needed a job. I had done an internship with the Church History Library with someone named Ron Walker who was a History Professor BYU. He needed a research assistant and I had an interview with him and felt like it went pretty well. He was working on a project about Brigham Young and the Native Americans. And he pulled me into his office for what I thought was a second interview. And as I went into the interview he told me, “What we’re actually working on is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I would like you to be my research assistant, but you need to know what you’re getting yourself into.” And I needed a job. I wasn’t particularly enthralled with Mountain Meadows at that time. I don’t know how much I actually knew about it. And he said, “You need to pray about this. This is a hard thing.“ And I needed a job and I felt like it was the right thing for me to do.  But for the first several months I was just reading newspapers from the 1870’s and these accounts and I was physically nauseated most of the time. And on top of that, they hadn’t announced the project publicly yet, and I wasn’t supposed to talk about it. And that was weighty. I could talk to the people who were working on the project, which certainly helped. But I have spent more than a decade of my life working on projects about Mountain Meadows, which I think is the darkest moment in Church History. And it was not easy. It wasn’t easy. After a time I was able to focus more on what was going on politically and what was going on and legally. I was the general editor of the legal papers and so I was more focused on that aspect of it which was much more manageable. I worked for Ron Walker for about six months and I was still going to have a few months before I went to Vanderbilt for my Phd Program. So I had lined up another job. But you can’t write a book in six months and the book wasn’t done. And I felt really strongly that I wasn’t done with Mountain Meadows. And Ron kind of said, “You can’t do both of these jobs, and I’m going to have to replace you when you’re gone anyway. So why don’t you go do this job that you committed to and do it well this summer.” But I didn’t feel like I was done with this project, which was right. So I went to get my Phd at Divinity School at Vanderbuilt and then came back and got a job working for Rick Turley on a project about John D. Lee. John D, Lee had two trials leading up to his execution for the Mountains Meadows Massacre. And I worked on that project. So for a decade my life revolved around the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Faith Is Not Blind: And like you said, that topic is pretty dark. And maybe there are people who might not be aware that there could be anything labeled that way in Church History. When you talked about how difficult that was personally, how did you keep going? Because some people might ask you, “Why keep going? Why not just study something else? Why stick with the Church? And why stick with those topics?” How were you able to keep going? Janiece: Rick Turley and I had a really important conversation at one point. He told me that before he approached this project, before he pitched it to the Brethren, he felt like he needed to be okay with whatever the worst outcome might be. In his mind the worst outcome was that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. And I still think that’s probably the worst outcome. And Rick said I had to be able to be okay with the worst outcome and he said, “Once I realized that the church is still true even if something really horrific happened, even if this worst possible thing happened, then I could go forward and know that I could be completely honest with this project.” And I think that was a really important lesson for me as a historian because I want to be balanced and I want to be complete. I think the best way for us to deal with difficult things is to approach them head-on and to learn everything we can. We always have to have humility. We’re not going to know everything, but when we approach difficult issues head-on and when we can learn as much as we can about the topic, I think that we’re able to deal with it. It’s when we assume we know what happened or when we don’t do the work to really learn as much as we can, I think that that’s where the problems come. I think Elder Marlin K. Jensen said it first, that the problem isn’t Church History. The problem is not reading enough Church History. Some of the most faithful, believing people I know are historians and people ask, “How does that work when history is messy?” Well, real people’s lives are messy. That’s just a reality.  No one’s life happens in nice little neat boxes no matter how perfect you appear to everybody else. Life is messy, but when we just know bits and pieces, we maybe just see the bad parts. But if you’re really focused and your life is focused on understanding, then you can’t see the bad without seeing all the good. There are things that I don’t understand. And I do believe we have better answers than we used to, but it would be arrogant to say that we have all of the answers. No mortal has all of the answers. But when we do the work there are better answers when we’re looking at better sources and when we’re trying to look at the complete picture. But along with the bad comes all of this good and I cannot negate all of that good. I see people with messy lives and people who sometimes make the wrong call and do the wrong thing, but I actually have the opportunity to learn from that and then maybe I won’t fall into that same thing. There are plenty of other things that I’m going to mess up with, we have to be more humble and recognize there is just a chasm of things that we don’t understand. I also think that sometimes that helps us to focus on what we do know and what we do understand. I know that the Spirit has spoken to me and I know that the Spirit has made an imprint on my heart and I have to also trust that the Gospel is strong enough for other people to work through those things for themselves. I think sometimes we want to kind of compel people to believe and that’s never going to work.   Faith Is Not Blind: It’s such a good point. I mean, if part of the messiness includes us trying to force people and compel people that won’t turn out well for anyone. Let me ask this question then: if someone is struggling particularly with church history and the messiness, where would you tell them to go to learn more? How would you help them focus on the good? Janiece: I think the Gospel Topics Essays that we have are a great resource that are way underused. There are a  number of students that I have that have no idea where to go to find them. Go to the Church Website (churchofjesuschrist.org) and look under Gospel Study, and look for Gospel Topics. In that whole section there are thirteen Gospel Topics Essays that were written by professional historians who are experts. This is something that has gone through a rigorous vetting process. They have been read by the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. It’s not just one person’s thoughts on the topics. Read those essays and go to the footnotes and read the sources in the footnotes. But I would also say in conjunction with that, go to the Church History Website. I used to work for the Church History Department, so I’ll give a plug. They have done this amazing work to gather together these narratives from Church History from the 19th century, but also from the 20th century. The Church is expanding internationally. And I think that as we read, we don’t just focus on the problem, but we try to learn more in general. Then we begin to see all of that good. I cannot negate the difficulties that many of the early Saints went through, and I don’t want to dismiss their voices. I want to try and understand their experience. I also believe that this will help us understand them better in a more complete way, and not just this kind of caricature. The person we put up on a pedestal isn’t someone we can understand. Pedestals are useless. Nobody can do anything on a pedestal. You can just look pretty on a pedestal and that’s it. Women, prophets, historical figures–people can’t do stuff on pedestals. We are agents and we are meant to act. And in real people’s lives when we act, sometimes that gets messy. But when we put in the time and we work, and I believe work is an eternal principle, we’re blessed. I think that grace more fully reaches out to us as we do more work But that work can change us if we want to know the answers and if we want to feel settled about hard questions, I don’t have all of the answers, but I have enough that I’m okay. I can feel peace. Things are still going to be complicated and some of that messiness isn’t going to go away until mortality is done, but if we’re willing to put in some work then we can have better answers. We can access that peace that is available to us. Faith Is Not Blind: I appreciate that so much. It’s so beautiful to know that as we reach out to God, He’ll reach out to us–even if it takes time, even if it’s a last-minute answer. He can help the messiness have some grace in it. And as we focus on Him, He can help us get through it.  You’re such a good example of that principle. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It was very helpful.   The post Janiece: How Becoming a Historian Helped Me Cope With Difficult Church History first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

David P : A Historian’s Look at Church History   With a Phd in American History, David’s academic perspective on using meekness to understand Church History is enhanced by his personal connection to an ancestor who played a significant role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. David uses both his historical expertise and his personal spiritual experiences to discuss how charity and humility can help us work through our questions and to achieve a greater appreciation for church history and church leaders. Further reading from Faith is Not Blind: “Resources [like the Gospel Topic Essays] can help us work our way through complexity to mature simplicity . . . Is it wrong to wonder or even to wander? We don’t think so. The Church does not self-destruct under questioning and scrutiny. Rather, seeking answers and deeper understanding can really help us grow.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 3, “Simplicity, Complexity, and the Internet Age,” p. 21) FULL TRANSCRIPT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I’m here with David Pulsipher, Professor of History at BYU-Idaho. Welcome, David. David: Thank you. Faith Is Not Blind: David, tell us a little bit about yourself. David:  Well, I’m a seventh generation Latter-day Saint. I grew up in the Salt Lake Area, which makes me very uninteresting in terms of how I grew up. I went to BYU. I served a mission in Pennsylvania. I’ve been married for about 27 years. I have six children and live here in Rexburg. I’ve been here in about 22 years. It’s been a wonderful life.  Faith Is Not Blind: What made you want to study history? David: I didn’t  have any moment where history suddenly grabbed me,  but I grew up with a deep sense of family history. And then I served a mission in Pennsylvania where I served in Gettysburg. I also served on the mission near the site of the Priesthood Restoration and I think there was just kind of an ethos of historical experiences that seem to follow me wherever I went. And over time that just seemed to be the natural place where I gravitated to. I wasn’t necessarily really into history as a child or a teenager. And even at BYU I studied American Studies, which is a study of the American culture more than  American History. But over the course of my graduate work I gradually shifted more from literature into history and then ended up being hired here to teach history. And I think it was more in the teaching of history than anything that I really discovered what I’m interested in. Faith Is Not Blind: What was it about the teaching of history that stood out to you or that attracted you? David: I’ve always just been interested in the human experience and the lives of individuals who shaped the world in one way or another–mostly those who have had a positive impact on the world. And I think in many ways my search for history has also been connected to my search for God. And understanding the human experience helps me to understand the mortal experience and the divine a little bit better in that searching for God and for truth. Faith Is Not Blind: Tell us a little bit about your background with the church. You’re a  seventh generation member of the church. You have a long family history with the Church. But what about for you personally growing up? How does your testimony develop? David: As a very young child I felt very close to God. I never had any particular questions about God’s existence or anything. I felt that God was there, deeply involved in my life as I grew into my teenage years. And I have parents–a father in particular–who always was very open with us about his own spiritual experiences. As I grew up, I knew I had a father who used the spirit about revelation in his life and would share those experiences with me. I knew I had ancestors that had had experiences. And also I I had on my mother’s side another kind of rich legacy that went back as well. I had a grandmother who served as one of the General Officers of the Church, so I felt her testimony and faith growing up. When I was in my teenage years, however, I was sitting in seminary one day as a16-year-old sophomore. And I don’t even know what prompted it. It seemed that it literally came out of left field. I had no preparation for it. I had the thought, “What if this whole thing is a hoax?” And it startled me because I had always felt close to God as a child. And here I realized in that moment that I no longer knew if there even was a God. It wasn’t just “What if Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are a hoax?” It was “What if God doesn’t exist?” And I had this startling revelation that I didn’t know if God existed anymore. And that kind of started a process for me to find out. I began making changes in my life. I realized that I had stopped praying. I wasn’t really living according to the truth that I had known as a child. And so I think I trusted enough in my childhood memories to know that maybe there was something I could recover if I worked hard enough at it. So I went through that process and it was really interesting. Faith Is Not Blind: As you were surrounded by all of the external influences that could help your faith continue and keep going, you just have this one sort of split second existential crisis and that leads you to asking these questions. And so from there how did you go about recovering that faith? David: It involved making some changes in my life and more particularly, I began to pray. And the thing that was hard was that I didn’t know if anyone was actually listening. So I began praying without any real sense that my prayers were going any further than the ceiling of my bedroom. But I began reading the scriptures. We happened to be in the Book of Mormon in Seminary that year and my Seminary Teacher called me into his office said, “I’ll give you an A (which I didn’t deserve) if you promise me you’ll read the Book of Mormon by the end of the summer.” The summer went by and about August I realized that I hadn’t been reading the Book of Mormon and I started reading it feverishly, wanting to be true to that promise if nothing else. At that point I started reading it feverishly. I literally finished it 15 minutes before school started and. And I was able to go in and tell him I had finished the Book of Mormon. But that next year was the Old Testament and it may seem strange, but that was the year that I really discovered the scriptures. The Old Testament became the place where I really fell in love with the scriptures. And I continue to pray and at the same time I was enjoying my scripture study. I was praying, but I still really had no clear sense that God really existed. From all outward appearances you would have had no idea that something was going on. I was that kid who kind of knew all the answers in Sunday school, even the kind of smart-alecky kid who knew the answers. So by all outward appearances I looked like I was the model young man in priesthood, but really inside I didn’t know.   So at the end of my junior year I was called to be in my high school’s Seminary Council President. Because we had so many seminary students we had seminary during release time and it was kind of like receiving an assignment to be part of a shadow student body group. And my responsibility was to call everybody else and to find out who God wanted to have on the council. And that created a major problem for me. I didn’t know if God was really there, and if He was, how to know if he was speaking to me. I was really blessed to have a good mentor in a Seminary advisor who was David Schuler. And he listened to me and coached me and walked me through it. I accepted the calling and then started the process of going through and studying it out in my mind. To make a very long story short, after many attempts at prayer that had failed, one night I went to the Lord in prayer. One of the things that I had been struggling with was, “How do I know if it’s emotion or if it’s the Spirit?” That was my biggest quandary. How can I tell if this is coming from inside of me or if it’s coming from externally? And I had no way of discerning that difference. And one night when I went to the Lord in prayer for the very first time I felt a spirit that came in and confirmed the specific thing that I was praying about. But in the end, that wasn’t the most important thing. The most important thing for me was that I felt the power of God’s love in such a way that I knew it was from beyond me. I had no doubt that it was coming from outside of me. And the thing that was most shocking to me at that moment was to realize that I’ve been feeling this my whole life, but I just hadn’t recognized it. It was like the volume got turned up.  Faith Is No Blind: But how valuable to know it for yourself. Because in some ways having all of the externalities of the church and being so ensconced in some ways can sometimes maybe keep you right from having a personal response or a personal relationship or to know for sure individually. David: And I needed that. I couldn’t continue on without that. I came to the point where I had to know for myself. But growing up with all of that around me led me to know that I could–or at least gave me hope that I could–know I could have that experience, that I could have a personal experience. So I left that night knowing that God was real and God was in a relationship with me. And if that was true, He was in a relationship with everyone. And I didn’t know anything else beyond that, but I knew that. And I’ve never had an experience to that level again. That experience became a kind of an anchor to which I’ve come back repeatedly. Faith is Not Blind: It’s interesting coming back to history and your love of History and American culture, there are people who have a lot of historical issues with church history. And in those types of things–like with every history, it’s hard to know exactly what happened. We put together pieces.  David: We can never know for sure. Faith Is Not Blind: You can never know for sure. And there are some historical questions that are difficult, historical questions that pose a lot of challenges for people. So as you have that foundational experience with the Spirit and with your testimony, have you had any experiences with any of the tensions that we see between the church and church history in particular? David: Well, that’s something that’s been essentially part of my whole life. The difficult problems of church history are an integral part of my family history. I’m a seventh generation Latter-day Saint, but one of those generational lines goes back to John D. Lee. So I’m a descendant of a man who helped orchestrate the murder of 120 people and did it in the name of his faith. And I’ve known that since I was a very small child. I can remember learning about it when I was 6, 7, 8 years old.  Faith Is Not Blind: Just for those that don’t know, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. David: Right. The Mountain Meadows Massacre. My great-great-great father organized it, He was the principle leader on the ground for that experience. Faith Is Not Blind: And for you, that’s a combination of your love of history and your study of humanity and the past and those narratives and then also the family narrative.  David: And the family narrative was interesting because the family narrative growing up was that he did nothing wrong. The family was largely in denial about his role. There was a very family narrative that wanted to exonerate him, that wanted to say, “Well, his gun didn’t go off and there’s no way to prove that he actually killed anybody and he was a good man.” And I remember even as a child wrestling with that because it didn’t seem quite right. That narrative didn’t seem quite right. On the other hand, that he was a total monster, that he was a depraved sadistic man didn’t seem right either.  Actually the very first historical thing, the very first academic paper that I ever published, it was in a student journal at BYU. It was an essay grappling with these two versions of my grandfather and trying to say, “Isn’t there some way that we can understand him as a complex human being? As a person who had deep faith and was trying to do what was right, but also as somebody who made some serious errors in part based upon the very things that made him a strong defender of the faith?” Those very same character traits are also what lead him down a really horrific road. And some really tragic choices that he makes. I found myself pushing against the extremes. Those who wanted to paint him in a really awful light and those in my family who wanted to just redeem him and exonerate him of any responsibility for what happened. I think I didn’t realize it at the time, but that’s where I began really formulating my sense that history is messy and complicated, and that the whole picture usually embraces both the good and the bad. Faith Is Not Blind: That’s a really personal example about the messiness of history and the nuances of history. You can respond to this if I’m out of bounds, but it seems to me that the further away we get from historical moment, the easier it is for us to look past the nuances and to want to categorize too quickly. It just makes the narrative of history easier to follow along if you know who the good guys are, who the bad guys are. This is someone we don’t like–you know some historical figure. When in fact, as an expert in history what you find as you go back is that there are things around the narrative, maybe above and below the narratives that challenge some of those labels we want to put on things that we weren’t there to witness. David:I mean, I ask myself all the time because it’s in my DNA. My ancestor made these choices. What choices would I have made if I had been back there? If I’d been in the heat of that moment would I have had the courage to push against the mob mentality that basically took over? Or would I have gone along with it? You know the tragic thing is I can’t really say for sure which way I would have gone. I would like to hope that I would have had the courage to (and there were few that did–not my ancestors are others) who stood up and said, “No. That’s just wrong. We shouldn’t be doing this.” But they were the minority and most of the people went along with it. And they went along with it in part because they thought they were protecting their community. And they thought they were doing something good, but in the end they were doing something horrible. So yes, knowing the complexity helps me realize that we all have the division of good and evil running through our own hearts. And we make choices all the time which lead us to one side or the other side.  Faith Is Not Blind: It sounds like you’re understanding that nuance–that we all have those parts of us. And what you’re watching in particular with your relative with the Mountain Meadows Massacre is the questions of “How does that happen? How does someone who we believe is faithful and good end up doing something that is tragic and horrific?” But it also sounds like understanding that nuance as you look back helps with your testimony. The understanding that that doesn’t affect your testimony or your sense of the Gospel as much as it does your understanding of how human beings respond in a particular historical moment. David: Yes. I think I knew these things partly because it was a part of my family history and partly because I had a grandmother who was in the upper echelons of church leadership. I grew up with no illusions that there were perfect leaders. And I knew that there’s a difference between God and his human servants. And that just because people make poor choices or do things as we all do, it doesn’t negate God’s reality and his efforts to reach out to his children and to guide them and direct them through imperfect vessels and so on. So for me, my faith is actually strengthened by looking at the good that God does with such imperfect beings. And I look at John D. Lee who, for all of his faults, still was an instrument for good in many instances. Obviously in this instance he was betraying the truth, but in many other instances he was an instrument in God’s hands to do good in the world. And being able to hold both of those ideas at the same time actually gives me hope because I’m so imperfect. And knowing that maybe I can be an instrument in God’s hands and have a chance to do good even though I’m oftentimes making choices that hurt and are not helpful. Faith is Not Blind: So let me ask you this question. With this background, especially with you thinking about your experience with looking back at your ancestor, how do you help your students gain that type of insight, either with history or with church history in particular? David: One of the things that I focus on constantly with students is the view that history is complex. A good historian and the historians that I respect are the ones who approach history with a high degree of with two really important qualities: one is humility–a sense that we don’t know everything and because we can’t know everything there are elements of human lives and decisions and circumstances that we will just never be able to access from our point in history. So we always have to go in with the sense that what we know is limited and any interpretation of the past we come up with is going to be provisional, it’s going to be subject to change. So you start with humility and then the second thing is the best historians always go to their subjects with a high degree of charity. They need to be willing to see the past through the lens of forgiveness and charity. I discovered this as a student in graduate school. I was studying the anti-polygamy legislation that had been passed in Congress in the 1880’s and court decisions. I have another grandfather an ancestor who part of the first case that was prosecuted for polygamy. So I grew up with polygamy and Mountain Meadows. There was never a moment when these topics sort of burst on to my mental stage. They were just always in the background of my family story. So I’m studying these court cases and I’m reading these Congressional debates and I’m angry at the way in which certain hypocrisies were coming out. Members of Congress who had mistresses and countenanced all sorts of immoral acts were then calling Latter-day Saints “highly immoral beings.” And I remember just getting angry. And I couldn’t understand how they could be so cruel to my people. And I was being very tribal. And as I’m sitting in the University of Minnesota Government section of their Library, which is always like in the dungeon of every library, and sitting there at this big metal table and I’m reading these debates because nothing was online at that point. And I’m getting angrier and angrier. And I remember having a moment where I almost heard a voice. The message was clear to me: “You have to forgive them.” And I realized that I had to forgive these people who had hurt my people. And as I forgave them I began to understand them. It wasn’t until I forgave them that I could understand. And I could understand how they were doing things they thought were right and that they were doing what they thought was going to make the world better even if I didn’t agree with what they did. And even if I could see hypocrisies that they couldn’t. They were still trying to do good in the world. And as I gave them the benefit of the doubt, the logic of what they were doing started to become clear. And that became the basis ultimately of my dissertation. It was the logic of enforcing the standard of monogamy and I looked at the way that that happened on Indian reservations where a lot of harm was done to Indian families as they tried to enforce the kind of European standards of marriage onto Native Americans. I was looking at the parallels between what was happening with Latter-day Saints and what was happening with Native Americans, and so the whole dissertation came out of that moment really.  If I hadn’t forgiven them, I wouldn’t have had the insights that came later from being able to let go of the anger. And since I’ve noticed that there are historians who approach history with malice, who approached it with a chip on their shoulder, who want to prove a point, who want to settle scores. And those kinds of Historians, I don’t think are helpful and I don’t think they’re useful generally. But those who approach their subjects with charity and humility generally write the best histories. And I think it’s a good model for Church History. You’re going to look back and in any human record you’re going to find instances of incredible mistakes and pain. And I’ve learned to apply the same principles when I run into instances in Church History. Forgiveness and humility help me to see them as people struggling to find God who are making mistakes–sometimes horrific mistakes like Mountain Meadows and think they’re doing it in the defense of the kingdom and in God’s name. And having charity helps me to understand them at least even if I don’t agree with them, and then ultimately to see God working with very flawed people. But again, if you don’t go in with that sense of charity and forgiveness, you’re going to be angry a lot of the time at things people do.  Faith Is Not Blind: Let me ask you one final question. And I love that response about charity and humility. It’s a great lesson for history, but it’s also a great lesson in general as we encounter people. Do you have any pieces of advice for people who are dealing with questions of Church History? David: Probably my biggest piece of advice is to always remember that the church and its leaders–from prophets down to local leaders to the parents–the whole institution of the church is designed to bring us to God. but it is not God. The vehicle is always imperfect and will always stumble at times. But I think it’s important to realize that our faith is not in the Church. Our faith is in Jesus Christ. My faith is in our Heavenly Father. The church is designed to bring us to them, but it’s not to be the end. It’s the means. I think sometimes people get clouded about that. They think that the Church is somehow the end and that our faith is in it, when really the Church is pointing us to where our faith should be. And it will always be imperfect because it’s human and God is working with what he has to work with–which in my case is not a lot. But He still manages to do some really incredible things with pretty imperfect people. I think there’s sometimes a sense that the Church has to be perfect in order to be endorsed as God’s Church. But I think it’s the very fact that it’s human means that it’s never going to be perfect. If you’re looking for the perfect institution, you’ll never find it–even in history. Maybe even especially in history or in the present-day right now. It’s always going to be a work in progress. Faith Is Not Blind: Wonderful. Thank you so much, David  David: Thank you for the opportunity.   The post David P : A Historian’s Look at Church History first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Marcus : A Stanford Professor Uses Both Faith and Reason Marcus is a Professor of Bio-Engineering at Stanford University who studies Systems and Synthetic Biology. His faith has been strengthened as he has studied, asked questions, and learned to appreciate what he calls the “interdisciplinarity” of faith and science. He discusses how adopting a perspective of humility and a “growth mindset” as we approach apparent paradoxes and contradictions can help us master fundamental concepts and gain greater maturity even as we struggle. Finally, Marcus gives his take on the significance of the pursuit of DNA evidence in the Book of Mormon as well as the importance of listening and learning through being open minded and wrestling until we have “found the blessing.” Further reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “As we search for the right relationship between faith and reason, that process prepares us to reach for a yet higher form of resolution in yonder simplicity.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 6, “The Head and Heart Paradox,” p. 46) Transcript: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Podcast. I’m Bruce Hafen and today we’re in California in the San Francisco area with Marcus Covert. Marcus, thank you for coming across the Bay to see us today.    Marcus: It’s a pleasure and a privilege.   Faith Is Not Blind: Why don’t you share with us what you do for work?   Marcus: I’m a Professor of Bioengineering at Stanford. I study what’s called Systems and Synthetic Biology. It’s a way of thinking about how cells work–how tissue works and thinking about it as a whole. So it’s a hot, very exciting new field that I love being a part of.    Faith Is Not Blind: Could you give us an example of something that you’ve been working on lately?   Marcus: So what our lab is best known for is that we created the first ever computer model of a cell that takes all of the genes into account and uses that to actually predict how that cell can behave. So it’s kind of of a revolution because when you think about it, it’s like the way that we use computers and mathematics is revolutionizing all the sciences right now. It’s how we have things like these new phones and airplanes, but now it needs to happen in Biology.   Faith Is Not Blind: What an opportunity for us to talk to someone who is a part of that world with the credentials that you have. What we want to talk about is your personal Journey of faith. Where you were before. You received all the education you could find and you’ve been adding to it with your own research. You must have encountered a few surprises along the way and what has that led to? And where are you now? Why don’t you just start from an early stage with your growing-up years?   Marcus: Sure. So I have loved science since forever. And I love it and I consider it–I think particularly important here–a search for truth in almost the same way that I consider my gospel study a search for truth. And I think that I’ve always as a result, been trained to have questions in my scientific training and I’ve been trained to just look for answers for those questions.   Faith Is Not Blind: Have you always been put together that way? What were you like when you were young?    Marcus: If my mom were here watching me, I would be forced to say that I was a high-energy, difficult to contain in class, very enthusiastic but very head-strong student. In chemistry in high school I set my final exam on fire. It the first time I heard any bad language from a teacher as she came to try to put out this fire.   Faith Is Not Blind: What were you like spiritually at that age?    Marcus: I was lucky enough to be raised in a home that was  relatively young in the Gospel. And I felt like I was raised to question. I was raised to think independently. My parents and my sisters had and have deep and exciting discussions about things. It was a great upbringing in that way.    Faith Is Not Blind: What was your earliest formative experience that helped you create a foundation spiritually for what would happen the rest of your life?    Marcus: I could tell you about my religious upbringing or about my mission but I think maybe what would be the most interesting in this context would be to talk about the first time I realized that I didn’t have to worry about anything I found in science.    Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. Talk about that.    Marcus: So I had finished college and I knew where I was going to go. I was going to go into this new field of Bioengineering. I was really excited about it, but I did perceive that there were potential problems between what science believes and accepts, and what I thought maybe I could accept on a faith level. And the big topic that I still get asked about all the time is about evolution. And so I had wondered about this and thought about it. And one day I went to this talk and it was by a Nobel Laureate, Christian de Duve, and he was speaking about evolution. In particular he was speaking about how we can look at evolution in a new way. And he said something really interesting about how evolution can still reconcile with something that is predictive. And I could go into detail about it, but the key thing that he said was–he looked at the audience and was explaining all of these equations he said, “What we’ve really found is that chance does not preclude inevitability.” And so the “chance” that we think of when we think of randomness in mutations and in evolution happening over time doesn’t mean that you can’t actually predict the outcome.  And he explained this–and I’d be happy to share more about it–but the most important thing to me is that as I watched this and heard him say it I realized that I was feeling the Spirit. And I actually felt moved to tears in this moment listening to this incredible man give this incredible talk in which he was not trying to share religion with me at all. But I realized all of a sudden that there was this interdisciplinarity for me between science and faith, and that I really could use either one to access the other.   Faith Is Not Blind: So learning that you could use either one to access the other, I think what you said in your earlier comment is that “you didn’t have to worry.” What were you worried about?    Marcus: I think the worry is that there’s a potential tension. You know,  that I’m reaching out in science, but I’m doing things that maybe we can’t accept if we’re a member of the Church. Of course that turns out  not even to be correct I now know, but at the time this worried me.    Faith Is Not Blind: So you were worried that it might threaten your own faith?   Marcus: Yeah, I worried. I think at the time I might have worried more just how some people might see me. For example, right now if I say I believe in the principles of evolution, some people might say, “Well, maybe he’s an ‘edgy Mormon’ or a ‘liberal Mormon’ in some way.” But I think I realized that my job was simply to follow the truth where it led in a positive and a faith-focused way. And that the answers would come, and they might come in a big lecture hall hearing a brilliant scientist share this truth that they had learned. And they might come while I’m sitting in a congregation or visiting somebody who I have been asked to serve. There are many ways it can come, but the truth is the same and that was the important part.   Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. And what an interesting context to receive the spiritual assurance that you did. And it was clear that you knew what that was. As you’ve gone on, Marcus, as you’ve become specialized–you’re teaching at Stanford in a field like genetics–the world has become so secular. I wouldn’t want to guess what the threats have been. Since that earlier experience and the talk about evolution, would you say is the biggest challenge to your religious faith that you’ve encountered all along the way?   Marcus: That’s a really interesting question. Well, maybe I’ll push back on just that concept for a second. Because I’ve definitely had challenges to my faith, but I think that I think about them differently than maybe people think that you have to think about these challenges.    Faith Is Not Blind: Please explain that.   Marcus: I think there’s a real humility in science in the search for truth as a scientist. So for example, as a scientist I’m very well aware that I have only a child’s idea of how the universe works. And it doesn’t bother me to hear a new concept. And I also don’t feel so tied to what I think I know that I couldn’t be convinced of a new idea if the evidence was strong enough to convince me. I think sometimes it’s really interesting to think about what it takes for me to add truth to the world. To get a PhD, for example, it takes 5 years and about 10,000 hours of work. And if you’re lucky you might be able to add a sentence to a textbook one day with all of that work. If you think about one of these students who spends these 10,000 hours, and typically the way that it works, they might spend, you know, many thousand hours just mastering the basics principles. And then they start to reach out and it’s intense. What often happens is someone will come to me at 6000 hours and be like, “You know nothing really seems to work.”  And I’ll be like, “Don’t worry. You’re right on track. Let’s keep going.” And at 7000 hours they start to say, “You know, I’m starting to question the basic fundamentals of this area.” And I’ll say, Yeah. Good. You should be doing that. Let’s see where that goes.” And at 8000 hours, still I’ll say, “You know, you’ve only spent this much time. Just keep going.” And then usually around the last year they start to pull together and they say, “Okay. Here are the big fundamentals that I really feel like I’ve got.” And they have this new humility and they think, “Okay. Of everything I’ve done, this idea is the thing that I think really is something new.” And they pull it together and then they walk out with this PhD. But also with just this glimmer of the new insight that civilization will hold, that civilization will remember. And it’s funny to me  because when I was in the Bishopric in the Stanford Ward, we had these brilliant students, these brilliant young professionals–they’re incredible. A lot of times, though, just given the nature of the internet and given the nature of the way we share information now, someone will come and they will say, “Well, I saw this on the internet.” And I’ll say, “Well, how long have you been thinking about it?” And they’ll respond, “Well, I probably spent about an hour on it.” And as a scientist I would say, “Okay. You’re not even close.”  When I have a concern I don’t think of it as a thing I’m scared of. I think of it as a challenge, but I’m excited to look into it because I know both from science and from faith that it’s going to bring me somewhere really special.    Faith Is Not Blind: You know that from experience. You see it as an opportunity to learn instead of an opportunity to run away, especially after a whole hour. Keep going.   Marcus: Well, I think that’s the special thing about it. If you draw the analogy clearly, even in the Gospel, if you’re going the right way, finding more confusion might mean you’re getting closer. Finding more complexity and finding seeming paradoxes might just be the thing that’s going to catalyze the exact insight that you need.    Faith is Not Blind: So are you saying that running into more complexity or more paradoxes is actually an indication that your search is growing, maturing? That it’s going to take you somewhere?   Marcus: Yes. That’s exactly right.    Faith Is Not Blind: How does paradox help with that? How do conflict and uncertainty help?   Marcus: God loves paradox. Pretty much the first thing we learn in the Bible is that humans are destined to encounter paradox. I mean, that’s the great story of Adam and Eve–to have two seemingly contradictory commandments. I think too often–this is now maybe getting a little bit on the engineering side–too often we think about the commandments as a set of equations that all have to fit exactly in order like equalities as opposed to an optimization problem where we’re trying to make the best decision. And what we have are these guidelines and the Holy Ghost to guide us and then the precious gift of our own choice. And so we’re trying to find the best thing. The beauty of the Atonement is that we don’t have to be perfect. As John Steinbeck said, “We don’t have to be perfect so we can be good.” And as a result of this we know we’re not going to be able to keep every single commandment perfectly because there’s just so much. Instead our job is to find the best. Faith Is Not Blind: So this is how you have encountered challenges of this kind. They help you thrive. You’ve learned to thirst for challenges.They feed your hunger to learn. And you’ve learned that they will feed you. I have the impression, just from listening to you talk about your experience here and other things you’re talking about, that you’ve made your way through that to a stage where you’re kind of beyond just paradox and uncertainty. You don’t just stay there.There’s a more settled rest in your attitudes about spiritual things. I don’t know if that affects the scientific things. Where are you now and your relationship with the Lord and with the spiritual things that you’ve been interested in all your life? Are your faith and your testimony different now because of this maturing process than it was before you got into it?   Marcus: Yes, I would say it’s different. At first I worried. I’m sure as you’re talking to different people, you’ve talked to people who have gone through questions. I don’t want to trivialize those at all. It’s easy for me, for example, as a PhD advisor to say to my student, “You know, you’re going to be great.” They don’t see that. They have not experienced that. What they see is that they’re beating their head against the wall and against this problem. So I don’t want to trivialize that. That’s real and it’s challenging. As I’ve gone through different questions, it can be frustrating. It can be a challenge. And sometimes as I was going through those kinds of questions I wondered if I was going farther away from the answers. I think now I realize that that’s part of a process.   At Stanford we have a wonderful, very prominent psychologist named Carol Dweck. And she talks about what’s called a “growth mindset.” This is something they are now trying to raise children with. Like if you tell a child, “You’re so great at math. You’re so great at all these things.” When they come up against their first challenge, when they don’t get the problem right, they’re devastated. So she recommends instead that we teach the children to love a challenge, to go after a problem, to tackle a problem. And I wonder sometimes if it’s like that for me. If what’s happened really is that I’ve done something similar with my testimony. Instead of feeling like I have a great testimony and I know everything and then being devastated, when I hear this, I try to have a growth mindset of testimony. I like a challenge. I’m excited. I run to new insight. And I know that the way to do that is like a valley to a peak. You’re on your way to good things and you can kind of enjoy that even as it’s driving you nuts, the same way that it does when I’m in the lab.   Faith Is Not Blind: Do you think the Lord wants us to learn like that?   Marcus: Speaking for myself, I definitely feel that way. For me it’s empowering. I mean, the first story we learn in the Restoration, of course, is that that a 14-year-old boy–and really that’s supposed to mean is anyone–can walk into the woods and can come out transformed. They can come out with knowledge that they could not have gotten any other way.    Faith Is Not Blind: But from the way you describe it, it’s not as simple as “I go into the woods. I say my prayer. I take a full fifteen minutes. I come out and then I’m transformed.” You’ve been describing something much more complex and long term than that. Marcus: You know the story that we love from The Book of Mormon about the Tree of Life? You know, Lehi actually tells this story multiple times. And then Nephi tells it. When Lehi first tells it,  it’s actually exactly what I’m talking about. He says he has this vision and he sees this glorified being. And this being says to him, “Follow me,” And it’s easy to miss because it’s so short, but he says, “I followed him and when I did, I found myself in the middle of this dark wasteland.”  And then the next phrase is so telling to me, because the next phrase is “And after I wandered about for the space of many hours.” I think too often we trivialize how long it really can take to have those experiences. On the internet with its “on demand,” I’m sure a lot of people might even think this is absurd or it’s extreme. Like can I click and just click my way to an experience? Can I click my way to conviction?   Once I was walking in the beautiful UCSD campus and it was a quiet morning. It was just me by myself. And actually I was having a question. I was thinking about how we know so much about how to teach people. We know so much about how to get people’s attention and how to kind of compel them to watch more. And I was thinking, “Why doesn’t the Spirit work like that? If Heavenly Father wanted to, he could just brain dump this. And He could really get our attention.” And as I was walking, I was thinking about how the way that it is is so inefficient. And then I felt like, “Well, it depends on what you’re trying to teach.” If you’re only just trying to teach the principles of the Gospel then maybe you should teach them like with a brain dump. But if you’re trying to teach how to listen, if you’re trying to teach how to make your own decisions, there is actually no shortcut to that.    It’s interesting. At Google, where I’ve been consulting for a few years, they often try to parallelize everything. They try to parallelize. And they’ve realized that there are some things you can’t accelerate. And somebody brought it up in a way that’s now been passed down. Somebody brought up kind of sarcastically, “Well, why can’t we just do all this with a baby? Why can’t you have a baby in 10 seconds?” And everybody realizes right away, of course, you can’t have something that precious and meaningful in that much time. No matter how much we parallelize or compress scripture.    Faith Is Not Blind: Before I run out of time, I want to have a specific question. You’re a geneticist. You know a lot about DNA. You know a lot about the Book of Mormon. What would you say to a friend who hears that there’s some question about DNA in the Book of Mormon? Can DNA evidence tell us that everything in the Book of Mormon is true? And if it doesn’t tell us that, does that mean it’s not true? What do you say to people who are running into those issues?   Marcus: This is speaking for myself, but I guess the first thing that anyone would need to know is that I have thought a lot about that. I’ve looked at those things and I’m not bothered or troubled by those things. I don’t think it’s wise for someone to go in guns blazing and feel like they can explain the DNA evidence for or against the Book of Mormon. As a scientist, I would just say, “Okay. I’m ready to learn. I realize that there’s so much more to find.” I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but recently they’ve had these incredible studies where they discovered that they might only know a small fraction of the things and even the buildings that currently exist regarding ancient American ancient civilizations. And what that tells me is that there is so much to learn.    Faith Is Not Blind: And so much that we don’t know and can’t prove.   Marcus; Right. I think it’s a blessing that I don’t feel like I need to know. Even as much as I know about the way the world works, it’s just the tiniest fraction. And I think if I were able to somehow see exactly how everything works in this world, I’d be astonished at how infantile my current knowledge is. So I’m not troubled by it because I know that there are a million problems and complexities that have to be addressed and it’s just our privilege to go in and start trying to figure them out.    Faith Is Not Blind: You know, some people would think that a person who has the credentials you do, who’s done the research that you do, who has been in the places you have been on the edges of science and life, that you would be pretty proud of knowing all of this stuff. But it’s just the opposite, Marcus. There’s a kind of humility about you. Where does that come from?    Marcus: It’s really interesting that you would say that. I don’t know if people who know me would necessarily call me “humble,” but I appreciate that. You know, it’s almost cliche but Socrates said, “True wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing. “ Philosophers like Michel de Montaigne have said basically the thing, that the one way not to be able to learn is to think you already know.    What can happen that’s negative is if somebody goes online and finds something and then a switch has been flipped and now they are no longer able to listen to anything about that topic. And it’s sad because the only reason they can’t learn is because they think they know. You’re turned off at that point. So really I think a mark of an open intellect that I would strive for and aspire to is to always be totally open, just open to everything. Let’s hear it and let’s weigh it and talk about it.   Faith Is Not Blind: Final question. If you are talking to a young person who’s running into the kind of conflict we’re talking about–they’re really stuck and really kind of uprooted–what would you say?   Marcus: The first thing I would say is that I recognize that it’s hard. And the hardest part is that sometimes (and you have this also in your book and other people have remarked on this) other people can make you feel when you’re in this type of situation, like maybe you don’t belong in the Church. Ant this can be people in or out of the Church. They can be like, “Well, you know, if you believe this or if you don’t believe this, then this isn’t the right place for you.” But I would say, “Follow your feelings, ideally in a positive way, in a positive search. Go after the truth and do it in a positive way. And I really feel like guidance will come. Truth will come. You’ll learn it a little bit at a time. You shouldn’t expect it all to come at once. Just don’t let anybody tell you where you do or don’t belong. Just take those things that bring you joy and keep growing. Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. Interesting. Persist. Persist in the dark and dreary wasteland. It sounds like you and Lehi have both discovered the same thing: that you will be led to the Tree of Life.    Marcus: And maybe one more thing that’s kind of interesting. I’ve always loved this idea of Jacob wrestling this angel. And sometimes when people wrestle with a question it’s almost like they’re wrestling with an angel. You know, they’re wrestling. I like the image of wrestling. And what Jacob says to the angel is so interesting: “I will not let you go until you give me a blessing.” Don’t let those questions go. Just take them and have that wrestle. Tell God. Pray and tell Him that you want to do this and you want the blessings that will come from this. And then you can be like the Children of Israel. Israel means “one who wrestles with God.” And we can really take that on ourselves by rolling up our sleeves and saying, “Let’s work on this.” It’s not just going to be easy. But we can roll up our sleeves. That’s even what is desired. And the blessing came.     Faith Is Not Blind: I love the energy. I love the peace and I love the confidence, Marcus. Thank you.   Marcus: It was a pleasure. Truly. The post Marcus : A Stanford Professor Uses Both Faith and Reason first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Tyler: A Stanford Oncologist Shares About the Evolution of His Faith   An Oncologist and Professor at The Stanford Cancer Center, Tyler discusses how understanding the complicated reality of a life of faith, including dealing with church history, is similar to being vaccinated. He discusses how confronting complexity head-on, even though it was uncomfortable, helped him to handle and even appreciate the gap between experience and understanding. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Such resources can help us work our way through complexity to mature simplicity. At that point, we are not just optimists and not just pessimists. We are open-minded believers who know that history and life are not always clear-cut and tidy, but we desire to keep learning and improve the status quo, not just to criticize it.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 3, “Simplicity, Complexity, and the Internet Age,” p. 21) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: This is the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I’m Bruce Hafen. Today we’re in Oakland, California with Tyler Johnson. Tyler, thank you for coming across the Bay.    Tyler: My pleasure.   Faith Is Not Blind: Where do you work and what do you do?   Tyler: So I wear a couple different hats at work. I’m a medical oncologist–that means I’m the doctor who gives chemotherapy to people with cancer. And I spend about half my time doing that, and I do that at the Stanford Medical Center at the Stanford Cancer Center. And then I spend the other half of my time teaching medical students there, teaching Residents there– General Internal Medicine Residents.  I teach oncology fellows there, so I do a lot of teaching.   Faith Is Not Blind: Given that experience, we’re very interested in knowing how you got there and what you have learned, what you’ve bumped into along the way. You’ve certainly encountered some questions that have challenged your worldview and your ideas about your faith,  but you’ve come through it. You’re Bishop of the Stanford Ward. So start at the beginning. Where did you grow up and what was your home life like in terms of your religious experience?   Tyler: Sure. So I grew up in Salt Lake City. I have ancestors going back many generations on both sides who were members of the Church. My dad is an ammature Church Historian of sorts. So I grew up in a home where we literally had Brigham Young’s footstool in our basement and John Taylor’s hymnal from his prayer circle at the temple on my dad’s bookshelf, along with maybe 2,000 Church History Books. So it was just in the water where I grew up.   Faith Is Not Blind: How did that affect the development of your own faith?    Tyler: You know, it’s funny because it actually worked in a sense both ways. What I mean by that is I’m not really given much to dramatic spiritual experiences. I’ve had a few of those, but not many. Most of the meaningful experiences I’ve had have been pretty subtle. And it’s more in reflection that they grow in importance.   Faith Is Not Blind: So it’s the meaning of the experience maybe more than the drama. WIll you talk about some of the early experiences that kind of helped to shape your faith?    Tyler: When I was probably about sixteen I remember this one night–or a sort of combination of a number of nights before–where I felt what now I think looking back I would probably call an existential angst of sorts. I didn’t know any of those words back then, but I just felt this deep unidentifiable sadness, this just sort of “What is this really about? What am I really about? What is the meaning of my existence?” It was also a time, as often happens when you’re a teenager, when, you know, I didn’t have a lot of friends, I hadn’t been making it into the things I’d been trying out for. I think I’d gotten a grade that wasn’t as good as I wanted. I had had sad nights about each of those individual things, but this was not that. This was a deeper, aching sadness that I really could not put my finger on. So I remember going to my dad one night and crying. And I said, “I just don’t know what’s wrong with me. Why am I feeling like this?”  And my dad had a way–and my mom too (they sort of took turns) of coming through in important ways at crucial moments. And I’ll never forget. He listened–really listened. And then he thought for a moment and took down off of the bookshelf the Hymnal and opened it to “O My Father” and started reading. And he read a number of things, but among them was the line that says “And then a secret something whispered, ‘You’re a stranger here.’ And I felt that I had wandered from a more exalted sphere.” And that cut through me like a sword. It was the answer. I mean, it didn’t just cover up the angst or move the angst or disguise the angst. It was like pouring water on a cube of sugar. It  just dissolved. And I just knew it was true in some way. I mean, I was still a 16-year-old kid and was probably playing video games an hour later. But in a way that was fundamental and deep, it just spoke to me and I knew. And I actually try to be very careful about using the “know” because it’s a really complicated word, but I just did.    Faith Is Not Blind: So you identified with the idea that–well. Eliza Snow’s term for it is actually a little ambiguous–”I had wandered. . . and I’m a stranger here.” I feel like I’m in a strange place.    Tyler: Right. I mean in a funny way it’s not a purely comforting idea. It’s actually sort of a melancholy idea.    Faith Is Not Blind: It has echoes of an identity from another place.   Tyler: And that’s what was so important about it. It was a recognition of my melancholy. It wasn’t saying, “Don’t worry about it” or “That’s not real.” It was saying, “This is real.”   Faith Is Not Blind: Yeah. It’s real and it’s meaningful. Thank you for that, Tyler. So keep going.   Tyler: It’s interesting, though. As I said my dad was sort of this Church History buff. A I feel like in a lot of ways my dad in particular sort of had a vaccine before almost anybody else had the vaccine. And so I got the vaccine when I was still growing up.    Faith Is Not Blind: A vaccine for?   Tyler: Well, it was a vaccine to help me handle complexity. Let’s put it that way. So I’ll give you an example. So as many listeners or watchers may know, Fawn Brodie many years ago wrote a psychological biography of Joseph Smith called No Man Knows My History. My Dad had that on his shelf next to other biographies of Joseph Smith–this was before Rough Stone Rolling. And then he had right next to it, he had a little pamphlet that Hugh Nibley had written called “No Ma’am, That’s Not My History,” which was supposed to be a direct rejoinder to Fawn Brodie’s presentation of Joseph Smith’s life. Well, one day I skipped No Man Knows My History–it was much longer than the pamphlet. And I picked up the pamphlet and I read it and brought it back to my dad and said, “This is so great. I don’t even have to read No Man Knows My History because all of the things that are in there are answered in this pamphlet by Hugh Nibley.”  And of course everybody knew that he was the smartest person in the Church. And my dad stopped what he was doing. He put his stuff down and said, “Well, you know, it’s complicated.” Hugh NIbley is 1000 times smarter than I am and my dad told me, “He is a brilliant Egyptologist, a brilliant student of ancient languages and many other things, but professionally he’s not really particularly a student of Post Revolutionary War and early American Religious History and his rejoinder to Fawn Brody was kind of shallow and actually didn’t really answer the substantive things that she brought up.” And I think that you can make an argument that maybe nobody did until Richard Bushman wrote his biography.    Instead of doing whatever I’m sure he was very busy doing and just saying to me, “Oh, you’re right. Tyler. There’s there’s nothing to see ther. Move along. Hugh Nibley is right,” then I think that would have embedded somewhere very deep inside of me. And I would have skipped merrily along my way thinking that I had solved the complexity of Joseph Smith’s life. But because he didn’t, I knew from a very young age that Joseph Smith–like most other parts of the church–is really complicated. You know, vaccines are actually really weird. I mean, the idea of the vaccine is that you introduce a little bit of a disease into somebody so that the immune system learns how to recognize it and to grapple with it. And then the immune system on its own expands and sort of mounts this arsenal against the disease. Then if you actually ever really get the disease, the immune system knows how to grapple with it. I felt like that being raised by my dad. When I read Rough Stone Rolling, for example, which is chock-full of really complicated things, I felt like, “Yes, this is complicated.”   Faith Is Not Blind: But you could handle it.    Tyler: Right. I knew I could handle it.   Faith Is Not Blind: Your immune system was ready for it. Very interesting analogy. Let’s go on to your medical school training. I’m wondering how that showed up when you encountered whatever you found in medical school. I don’t know what it takes to get on the Stanford Medical School Faculty. What does it take?    Tyler: Probably much more in most cases than what I have. I think I just sort of slipped in somehow. I went to BYU for undergrad and majored in American Studies, which has nothing to do with medicine. But it was important to me to get a Liberal Arts education and American Studies really spoke to me. Then I went to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia for medical school and it was different then BYU. At BYU there were however many tens of thousands of members of the church in the student body, and at the University of Pennsylvania there were probably 15 or 20 of us scattered across all of the undergrad. With the Law School and Business School there were probably a few more than that with the married folks. But of the young single adults there, there were probably about that many.    So maybe one of the most complex experiences I had was when I was younger. I remember when I was about seven, we went to visit my father’s Aunt Caroline. I was obviously too young to understand what was really going on, but they told us that she was dying. But she was sitting there with her hair carefully coiffed in a big bouffant even though she was dying. And she was sitting up in her bed and she looked completely serene. I don’t know what was wrong with her, but it didn’t appear to be painful at all. And I just remember she was as peaceful as if she was getting ready for a trip to Ogden. I mean, she just could not have been more at peace with the world and God and herself. She was just ready to go to the next life. But I remember having that experience and it just felt as intuitive to me as my own name that she would be resurrected. How could she not be? It was not as if she would cease to exist after she died.    Well, in medical school I spent three months painstakingly dissecting a dead person’s body. And I mean dissecting every artery and nerve. I held the person’s heart in my hand. I hefted the liver. I picked apart the very complicated nervous architecture of the arm. I looked at the person’s brain. I cut through the bony vertebrae to look at the glistening spinal cord. So on the one hand, it was a fascinating and beautiful experience. And that may seem strange to say, but just take my word for it. But it’s complicated. What does Alma mean when he says “not a hair of the head shall be lost?” Here we were dissecting this body. The body is mutilated when you’re finished with it. So what does it mean that “we should be restored to our perfect form?” Does that mean that that very same body and those same atoms that make up that body are going to be restored?     Faith Is Not Blind: So how did that complexity about the physical body and your training that you so vividly describe affect–testimony seems too shallow of a word–your religious understanding, your feeling, your comprehension? Did you just try to take it all in stride or did it add something and make you see more?   Tyler: Well, I think a lot about fairy tales. Everybody loves fairy tales. When you’re growing up, who doesn’t love a good fairy tale? And the reason that we love them is because the characters are carefully delineated into good guys and bad guys. And everybody gets their just desserts. And the older versions of the fairy tales, the bad “just desserts” are pretty gory. So sometimes the bad guys get punished by having part of their body hacked off and even that seems somehow fundamentally satisfying because the good guys end up married in the castle and the bad guys end up being punished. And I think that when I was young I had a very “fairytale understanding” of the Gospel, which is satisfying when you’re young. But as you age, I think all of us want to hang on to a fairytale understanding of the Gospel because there’s a part of us that always loves that. That’s why people pay so much money to see Star Wars. But I think there’s a deeper part of us that knows that it just doesn’t wash. Fairy tales in that sense just aren’t true. Life just doesn’t work that way. And the Gospel, if it’s going to be deeply, fundamentally meaningful in the way that the lyrics from that hymn were to me all those years ago, has to be capable of dealing with a much deeper complexity and a much richer, more meaningful, more complicated way of looking at the world.   Faith Is Not Blind: How has it done that for you? How has the Gospel kept up in terms of its maturity and depth–what you were just talking about–with the complexity you’ve seen in your education and in your practice?   Tyler: Well, the thing that I think is really the key is that the Gospel doesn’t always “keep up” in the moment. In my view, faith is the willingness to continue diligently doing my very very imperfect best to be a Christian disciple, even in the moments where there is a gap between my understanding and my experience. Now sometimes the gap goes the other way. Sometimes my understanding outstrips my experience, like that time I mentioned earlier with the hymn when I was a teenager. The understanding that infused into me in that moment outstripped what I could articulate. It was beyond my ability to articulate. So that happens sometimes. But then there are times when it goes the other direction and that gap is very troubling. When my ability to articulate my understanding of the Gospel seems for a moment–and sometimes moments are long–to fall behind what I am experiencing. That can be a deeply difficult and painful time, but my experience is that if I continue trying my best to be like Jesus and trying my best to keep my covenants, even in those “gap moments,” then a sweet peace comes eventually.    Faith Is Not Blind:  Let me be sure I understand. It seems like you’re saying that you’ve seen that gap close enough times that your faith is not  just a kind of an idle, desperate hope–it’s the result of experience.   Tyler: You know Moroni says that the witness comes after the trial of our faith. I actually resonate in a lot of ways more intuitively with Alma’s way of describing this. So Alma compares planting the word in our heart to cultivating a tree. Well, there is nothing more boring, more painstaking, and more requiring of faith than planting a tree. It’s the idea that you can take this little, teeny thing you can press between your fingers–you can make it disappear under your thumb–and you can put that in the ground and if you do the right combination of things, you and nature and grace and the soil over 30 years will produce a tree. In California we have these redwood trees that are the oldest living things on the continent. All of those come from these little seeds. You know, we have people in our ward who have lemon trees that put out so much fruit that they just bring baskets around to the members of the ward to get rid of them. But the point is that it is by definition a faith-full (in the real meaning of that word) exercise. And so I would say that cultivating my own faith is like that. It requires trust that the fruit will come. And, yes, I have seen the fruit come and come and come and come.   Faith is Not Blind: But it sounds like from the way you’re describing it with that gap and the faith that will fill it–based on trust–that this is what the Lord wants us to experience. It’s going back to the beginning of the interview when you talked about the lyrics that say “you’re a stranger here.” There’s a little angst and the feeling that “I just don’t get this,” but then you feel something that makes you trust and then you start to understand it. And then you say, “Oh. Okay. I can repeat that cycle because that’s how things grow.”    Tyler: Yes, and that’s what Alma describes–that you have faith. He describes a sort of a “big F Faith” and a “little f faith.” The “big F Faith” is that one day I’m going to be standing here in the shade eating fruit–that’s the “big F Faith.” But the “little f faith” is if I keep watering this I’m going to see a sprout.    Faith Is Not Blind: And we need to remember both kinds of faith. Tyler, beautifully expressed. Thank you very much for coming in today.   Tyler: Thanks so much. The post Tyler: A Stanford Oncologist Shares About the Evolution of His Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Terryl Givens Part II: The Importance of the Contemplative Life Terryl Givens continues his story about what he does in his own life to foster a meditative approach to his faith. He explores his fascination with the aesthetic beauty of the unique doctrines of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. The post Terryl Givens Part II: The Importance of the Contemplative Life first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Janae : Discovering That You Can Believe, and Then Doubt, and Then Choose to Stay Janae questions about her faith as a young adult were as surprising to her as the answers that came. She learned that doubt is not only developmental, but something that could help her faith thrive. Janae gives an honest, refreshing look at the beauty of having a “desire to believe.” The post Janae : Discovering That You Can Believe, and Then Doubt, and Then Choose to Stay first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Loretta (Zimbabwe) : A Convert’s Struggle to Understand the Priesthood Ban   As a Zimbabwean convert Loretta relates how two encounters have built, challenged, and sustained her faith in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. The first experience was as a waitress in a restaurant and the second was as a missionary in England when a street contact asked her how she feels about the church’s historical treatment of Africans, a history she didn’t know. Loretta’s shock at learning about the Priesthood Ban was handled with both charity and understanding by her Mission President, who allowed her to research and to work through her concerns. Through her personal experiences, Loretta will offer you wisdom about how to deal with this difficult issue. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind:  “[W]hen we choose to give the Lord the benefit of the doubt, our righteous desires will help us find, understand, and teach a plausible pattern that supports some divine instruction . . . That was exactly what his mission president had done for him: ‘in my hour of need [he] could give me a reason to believe when no clear answers were readily apparent.’” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 14, “The Benefit of the Doubt and Moving Beyond Complexity,” page 114) FULL TEXT: Faith is Not Blind: I’m really excited to be able to talk to Loretta. She has a unique, important story. To start off with, I’d just like you to introduce yourself. Talk about where you’re from and a little bit of your background. Loretta: I’m from Zimbabwe originally. I grew up in a small family. It just myself and my older sister raised by a single mother. We were not entirely religious. The rest of the family was, but my mom just wanted us to learn from whatever we can. We didn’t go to church, but she always instilled normal moral values:  be good to people, don’t steal, don’t do bad things, stuff like that. So I just grew up with that, but when I would go to visit my grandmother and everybody else then that’s when I kind of got a little bit of religion in my life. Beause they would always go to church on Sundays. So when I was with that side of the family I would go to church. But in my home that we didn’t have. But that was kind of the upbringing. Faith Is Not Blind: How did you find the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I was with my sister and her husband. They were living in South Africa then because he was called there for work. And we were just kind of going through the aftermath of my mom’s passing away. I was struggling more than my sister was, My sister was kind of already moving on with that, but I was still holding on and so she suggested I stay with one of her in-laws who lived in South Africa. She was in a different town because she had kids that were my age and so she wanted me to kind of have that because at our house it was just her and her husband so there wasn’t much there. So I went to visit them. It was about a year or so after my mom’s death so I wasn’t really doing anything.  I wasn’t working. I wasn’t in school. I was just kind of grieving. I didn’t want to participate in anything. So when I was there I remember just getting a feeling that I should get a job. I should just get a job. I did not have a resume anywhere, but I woke up one morning and I thought, “Okay, I’ll go look for a job.” I have no idea where to look for one so I just started walking down the street, which is not like me at all. I was just wearing jeans and a t-shirt and I was just walking around there really asking if they’re hiring. Because it was a coastal town it was like so many tourist places restaurants and stuff like that so I figured if anything I should just look for like a job as a waitress because then it’ll be easier and less busy I guess. As I remember passing through this place and they had a sign that they were hiring and I walked in and I asked the manager if they could hire me. And he said, “Oh, we’re sorry. We still have the sign, but we have already recruited for the season. So just leave your resume and then we’ll get back to you. I didn’t have a resume nor even a handbag, so I just told them, “No, it’s fine. I’ll just apply when you guys are hiring again.” And I remember leaving the place and I got that feeling again: “You need to go back and beg for the job.” It was very specific and I didn’t know what this was then I just thought that’s a nagging feeling. Why do I have to go back for something I don’t want? So I went back and I told the guy that I’m a really good worker and I don’t have anything together. “I don’t have a resume for you, but if you hire me I can prove myself.” He was kind of put off by that because he was thinking, “You want a job, but you’re not prepared.” Like an anyone with does that. And so he’s like, “Okay, I’ll hire you for the night shift,” which is the busiest for that restaurant because it’s very popular in South Africa, “And if you do well, we’ll keep you, but if you don’t then you can’t fault me for not trying.” I remember going home that day thinking, “Okay, I have to prepare for this.” Usually if you’re getting a waitress job you get trained in the kitchen. I could get trained everywhere else before you go on the floor. I didn’t do that. He just told me to come in in the morning to get the menu and then that night I’m workin. So I went there in the morning. Then I started working that night. It was a Thursday night and Thursday night for that restaurant is busy. They have bottomless pizza from like 6 to 9. You just come in and your order pizza and you just keep getting more pizza until the night is over. And so everybody comes for that. It’s the busiest night and I was obviously nervous, but I remember standing with my colleagues at the door helping people if they coming.  I was thinking this was probably not a good idea because I don’t know anything.  I don’t know the menu. What if they don’t want the pizza? It has to be something else. Except for going through that I remember seeing eight people getting out of their cars wearing white shirts and black trousers. And I thought that was very unusual. They were all kind of matching and they had black tags and I said to my co-worker, “That’s a big table. Because they all dress and same, they must be from some company, right?” Then she looked at me she said, “No. You don’t want to help them.” And then everyone said, “The Mormons are coming” and then they kind of all ran away. Then I was only one standing by the door because I want to impress my boss. So I have to serve them, but it didn’t understand why everybody ran away. So as I was there walking towards the door I had a kind of–I don’t want to say Vision–but I had kind of something that reminded of when I was young growing up in Zimbabwe. I remember seeing people dressed like that and that was brought to my memory when I standing at the door. They kind of looked familiar as they were walking towards me and they greeted me. I sat them down and I went to grab their menus and when I was coming back from the menu station to give them the menus that feeling came again:  “Ask them what they do.” And I thought, “That’s not what I’m going to do. I’m just going to give him their menu and you know impress them or whatever.”  And that feeling was really strong to the point where I couldn’t say anything apart from asking what they do. So I got to the table feeling a little bit overwhelmed and I said, “Okay guys, here are your menues. But what do you guys do for a living because your all kind of dressed the same?”  One of the ladies was there and they’re kind of older–older couple missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They said, “We just came in here for a bite to eat. If you want to know what we’ll tell you after we eat.” But then they decided that whole evening gto tell me what they do.  They left no stone unturned. They told me everything. And I was listening and smiling because I’m being watched by my boss so I wanted to impress him. I literally gave them my undivided attention. I listened and would bring glasses of water or something and I’ll just listen for a few minutes to whatever they had to share. But everytime they kept telling me it I seemed too good to be true. I think, “This doesn’t happen. It’s not normal for a 14-year-old boy to just go pray and stuff happens.”  It’s a good story, but I don’t believe it. And at that time in my life because of my mom’s death I had a lot of questions for them. I was asking them, “Why did she have to die? Why do I have to raise myself? She was a good person she didn’t deserve that.” I had all these questions like “Will I ever see her again?” And these missionaries were not addressing any of that. So I was thinking, “If they’re from a church, they should know know what I’m supposed to be staying, but I’m not going to ask them. I’m just going to serve them and then they can go on their way.” Before they left that evening, one of the Elders who ended up teaching me about his testimony on plan of salvation and it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. He just talked to me about the Restoration and the Bible and that history. But then he just felt inclined to share that his testimony about the Plan of Salvation. After they left their number on the ticket. I like what she had said and I wanedt to know more about that. So I called them after my shift. It was like 12 midnight. I didn’t know you couldn’t call them at that time. So I I remember going home and calling and I was like, “I want to know more about what she said, Not everything else you’re talking about.”  You could tell they were happy. “Oh yeah! Got the job.” Faith Is Not Blind: As the missionaries were teaching you, what would you say is the biggest thing that helped you know you should be baptized? What helped you make that decision? Loretta: I think two things. Because I I kind of always wanted to be immersed in religion like when I wnet with my grandmother to church. I I liked everything they taught but I didn’t like it because everyone in my family was Methodist except for us. They would always teach you wonderful doctrine, but it felt like God was some untouchable being, you know. Like I couldn’t talk to him. I couldn’t, you know, just discuss how I’m feeling. So there was that distance and so I wanted if anything to have a personal relationship with that Being that I didn’t know yet. And secondly because before my mom died she kind of sat me down. I don’t know if she knew she was going to pass. I don’t know, but she kind of talked to me about life. She said, “I want you to get an education. I want you to be that person.”  So I think I thought religion would help me. I was a good kid, but I thought that would kind of help me be more consistent with those values. So when the missionaries were talking to me about a 14-year-old boy being committed to something like this I thought, “I’m older than Joseph Smith. I can do it.”  And so I’m praying or beginning to pray and learning how to pray and learning how to communicate with God. That helped me believe it. And the Plan of Salvation. I think that’s what really solidified everything. When the missionaries taught me my first lesson it was not the Restoration. I didn’t tell them anything. I only told them  after I was baptized. They had no idea, but they just felt like, “We need to teach her the Plan of Salvation.” So they came with that and so that was what really drew me because it made sense that, yeah, people die, but we can still see them again. It’s like not the end. I like the principle that our lives here are not just a waste. We can still be reunited and so that was the cherry on top for me. Faith Is Not Blind: I think it’s interesting that you felt like you wanted to have that internal commitment to God in the same way that you perceived Joseph Smith having it so that you could be eternally connected to your mother, which is a beautiful sort of circle. I think it’s interesting that that idea of commitment and being immersed in religion in a relationship with God led you to go on your own missio. Describe how you decided to go on a mission and then where you went on your mission. Loretta:  I think after I got baptized it was two weeks. Yes, it didn’t take long. I knew it was true. But the missionaries were like, “Okay, we have to teach you something so sit down.” And while they were teaching me I’d ask them, “Does everybody know about this? Because I didn’t know about this. Are there people all over the world teaching the same things? It’s not common knowledge still because I didn’t know it. It’s not like as common as getting a newspaper. Why is this not being broadcast everywhere?” I wanted to help you share it with everybody. I asked the missionaries what their program was and where I could I also do this. Is it just guys? Can I do it? After I got baptized I started learning about missionary work. I would go out teaching with them and just understand how to help people and I kind of was drawn to the concept of meeting someone who has no idea or has an idea but doesn’t really have the big picture and seeing that change fascinated me. I went to teach with them because I like how this feels and so I decided to serve a mission. My entire family was surprised, shocked. What are you doing?  Because I’d never really commit anything and after my mom died I kind of didn’t care anymore about much. So the fact that I was caring about something scared them, like “Maybe you’re being irrational you or just grieving in the grieving process. You don’t need to decide to do anything.” But I told them, “This is what I want to do and I’m going to do it with or without your help.” And they’re like, “Well, you know you’re not listening to us. Your mother’s not here so you think you can just decide to do what you want. We’re going to step back.” And I was like, “Okay, fine.”  And so I just started saving. I worked. I still working at the waitress job. I found another job close by in a hotel and that helped. My ward was great and then I went on my mission I think just 2 years after I’d join the church. I served in England. And I just wanted everybody to know what I knew. That’s what I wanted to do. Faith Is Not Blind: It’s a beautiful story. And like most beautiful stories, you want the hero to have sort of an easy way and have things come easily. And I and I think it’s interesting you had these conflicts, but you pushed through them because you’re so certain that it was true. On your mission was there a time when you weren’t as certain? Loretta: Yes. Because I felt like I left on such a whim, like I was literally on a Magic Carpet, which I think sometimes the Spirit can help us do that and it’s wonderful but it can’t last.  And it probably shouldn’t. I remember when I was being taught by the elders I was kind of interested in Church History, but there was just so much study that I didn’t get to study everything. I remember right at the beginning on my mission, I was walking with my trainer and we were just talking to people on the street and there was this guy who came and he talked to us and we sat with him for like a while and he said, “Right. I have a question for you, Sister.”  I was like, “What?” and then he saidI have a question for you.” And then he said, “ow can you be so convinced with everything you’re sharing with me and everything you’re saying, but you know that this church doesn’t like people who look like us.” What does it mean? He started telling me about the Priesthood not being given to people of color and I didn’t know back then. So I kind of listened to what he was saying, but I was like, “I don’t know what he’s talking about. This is ridiculous.” But it would not escape my mind. I kept thinking about it because I guess I was starting to put two and two together, Like, God loves me so obviously so everybody should have everything. So I called my mission president the next day and I told him this is what I was faced with and I don’t know how to deal with it, but I need answers. Faith Is Not Blind: How did you feel? That’s a bombshell to find out something like that. Did you feel that anyone had deliberately tried to hide that information from you? Loretta: At first I did because I was thinking they just didn’t teach me everything. I wanted to be taught everything, so I felt like they just didn’t disclose everything, But at the same time, because I was studying Church History already, I was thinking, “How did I miss that in my study or have I not gotten to it yet?”  So I was just thinking, “This is just a lot and I want to know how to unpack it.” I think that’s why I called my Mission President. Faith Is Not Blind: That’s an interesting approach to try and at least give the benefit of the doubt to the information. So what did your Mission President say? Loretta: He said, “Well, if you want, you can research.” He told me to go on lds.org if I wanted to or I could deal with it when I get home. Faith Is Not Blind: Did he make it clear to you that the information was available? I think that’s interesting that he told you to research it. Loretta: He said, “Well,l nothing is hidden.” Because I told him I don’t understand why I didn’t know this yet. Someone on the street knows it. And he told me, “We have a lot of Church History that is compiled by the leaders of the church that you can find online. And this is where it is. You might have not come across it,but it is there and you are more than welcome to study it. That will help you learn how to assist other people that you might meet on your mission.” So I decided to pray about it after that because I personally have a pattern ab out how to deal with things. I first go to the leaders or a Bishop. Right then it was the Mission President. And after that I pray about it and decide. So I prayed about it and answer was, “You don’t have to deal with it right now or you can deal with it when your home. It won’t be a problem anymore.” Faith Is Not Blind: How did you get that answer when you were so confused? I think sometimes confusion or a misunderstanding or any negative feelings might stop someone from communicating with God. I think your pattern is interesting because you see it all throughout your conversion story–that connection with God. How to do have an open connection with God so that you could ask him and still get an answer even though maybe you had some negative feelings–which were justified in the circumstance–but how did you get that answer from Him? Loretta: After becoming a member of the church I was obsessed with General Conference. I started studying all the Conference talks before I became a member. So I was baptized 2010 and I started from like the seventies. When I started I would study every General Conference because I was obsessed with General Conference. I had lots of talks to draw from to deal with this. And I remember there was one talk by, I think it was, President Boyd K Packer and I had this prompting to read that talk. In that talk that was a scripture recited which was in first Nephi. And it was Nephi being questioned by the angel and he talks about condescension of God and he says, “You know I don’t know the meaning of all things, but I know God loves his children.”  And I was at a point where I didn’t know the meaning of all things, but does that mean God doesn’t love me. I know he does love me and so that scripture was kind of what I needed at that point and that was my answer: I’m not going to have answers for all the people who I meet during this mission. Questions are going to throw at me. I might not have answers,  but what they need to know is that God loves them irregardless of whatever questions they might have. Faith Is Not Blind;  So you read that talk on your mission and after you read the talk, you felt like God’s love is probably the most important thing and still feel that. How did you proceed with the rest of your mission? Were there other obstacles like that or did that help you get through the rest of your mission? Loretta: It did help because during my mission. At first I didn’t understand why I’d been called to England. It didn’t make sense to me when I wanted to go to Africa. But for some reason while I was in England every person of color was drawn to me. I didn’t have to actively seek people. They’d just see me walking down the street with a badge and go, “I need to talk to her.” They’d always ask me, “We didn’t know people of color were in this church.” Like, “Where are you from? Who are you? Where did you come from?” And I’d tell them where I came from there were so many members. And I remember this guy–he was from the Congo– and they were less-active. And then there was another family as well–not even members–we just knocked on their door. So all these people would ask and they’d be surprised first of all because they knew about this church, but they just didn’t know that they had a place in it. And I was kind of like their evidence that there is a place for us. Because she cannot be here doing this for 18 months for no reason. So there were many people. I was just drawn to them and they were drawn to me and I would always bear testimony that, “You may encounter things you do not understand. You may have to really understand why you’re doing this, but at the end of the day God is the one that loves you. He’s the one. If anything, that’s what should help you stay. Faith Is Not Blind: Did you have any of these people asked you specifically about the Priesthood? Loretta: I had one one person talk to me and they were asking me because they didn’t understand I’m staying. They were less active and they  were wondering, “Why are you still a part of this when you know this targets your people?” Well I feel like people are not perfect. God is working with imperfect people and because he’s working with imperfect people these things are what makes them or breaks them. And their choices are not God’s choices. We can only yield to God’s will not our will. Then it’s not a problem right now because they made their choices that they needed to at that time, but I’m choosing to make this choice right now. Faith Is Not Blind: So you took control over your choices and let your relationship with God be your relationship with God. How long have you been home now? Loretta: It’s been awhile. I came home in 2014 in September–almost 5 years. Faith Is Not Blind: I love that your relationship with God basically dictated all your decisions. I mean, even before you knew that that’s what it was pushing you, it was God’s love for you and your love for him. Since you’ve been home, when you’ve had difficulties I love that you turn to Him. How would you recommend that other people do the same?  I think sometimes it’s hard when we have expectation failure or when we have conflicts both in and outside of the Church. How have you made sure that the love of God is what motivates you and pushes you forward? How would you suggest other people do the same? Loretta: For me personally, I think the problems or the questions usually come when a new experience presents itself into one’s life–either a trial or a change of environment something always shift gears. For me, when I left to go on my mission, I was going and knowing that I’m coming back. I had that I had that at the back of my mind–that no matter what happens here I’m going to be home. It’s fine. And so when I came to America I was like, “I don’t know when I’m going to come home.” Right now I’m kind of a fish out of water. And so I struggled a lot spiritually when I came here because things are so different from what I’m used to and I had experiences where my like identity was challenged. Like who I am and where I’m from–things like that. I remember talking to my Stake President at home who I talk to all the time. He was, “Well, when you went on your mission you were going for one purpose–to preach the gospel and go home. You’re here for school that’s different. It’s not technically a mission, but it is a mission because you are here to educate yourself, but you’re also here to help others. So why don’t you take that same energy and those same reasons and apply those here? And it’s not easy because you know you’re not a missionary, but you have to start thinking like one.” The first thing after “love the people you’re serving” is “you cannot compare.” Back home we used a certain type of money and in England they use pounds. What is this? You can’t compare things like that, Like why am I having the American dollar?  You’re here now. This is home so you have to learn again to love other people you’re surrounded by.  I can do that. That’s not a problem. And so I started doing that and I decided to work in the temple because I thought that would be one of the ways I could serve a lot of people without proselytizing or anything. So I started doing that in the temple as an ordinance worker. I was taught a lot of lessons and I realized that sometimes when people don’t want to face the music, they don’t want to face the challenge they’re struggling with. I’m not afraid of trials. I don’t like them, but I’m not afraid because I feel like I’ve already been beaten down with a lot of things. So anything that’s coming–you know–bring it on. I don’t care. So I’m not afraid and Satan knows Loretta’s not afraid and so he will try and find the simple things to detract me. For me, it was kind of the concept of going through the motions. I will go to churc.  I’ll do everything I’m doing, but I’m not invested. I’m just a body sitting in sacrament meeting, but nothing’s in there. No. Nothing is being taken in. Nothing is coming out. And so that was my trial. I was just complacent. But when I go to the temple I can be whole. So I think that’s the kind of the thing that happens if people become complacent. We’re not fully immersed. You don’t have to be less active or stop going to church to be someone who is struggling. We could all be sitting together in church and we’ll all be there, but we’re not there. We’re not active in the daily things that we’re supposed to be doing. And so I didn’t like that feeling. I was like kind of like, “This is not bringing me joy and it’s not who I am.”  So I decided to sit down with my bBshop and I told him, “I haven’t been reading my scriptures and I haven’t been praying.” And he says, “It doesn’t look like that when you come to church.” And I go, “That’s the problem, Bishop. You don’t see it. You know everyone could be sitting struggling but you can’t see it.” I’m showing up for church, but I’m not really there. So I’m the only one with enough guts to come and tell you this is what I’m going through. Probably millions in this world that are going to the same thing and I feel like you need to find ways we can help. I feel that everybody needs that same guidance because I’ve always want to strengthen the leaders of the church. I feel like if anything they can be my goal posts on the road to my Father in Heaven. So I did that and when I started applying those principles–deciding to be the one to choose to go to church, not going because I want to be seen–that I’m sitting there but because I love Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father more than anything and that I will go to church. And it just started off like that. Faith Is Not Blind: I think it’s interesting that you were drawn to the church because you said you wanted to be fully committed. And that commitment essentially is what helped you stay when you were going through struggles. In the end, you you noticed that in order to be fully committed, you need to be doing internal things not just the external things. I think sometimes we feel like the love of God is just something that we can feel no matter what we’re doing, but the connection you’re making is interesting between the commitment and the work and being able to feel the love. The love is always there, but in order to feel that you have to have that commitment and that work. And sometimes giving God the benefit of the doubt during a struggle is the work you have to do. I just want to ask you to describe one last thing. When you feel the love of God–which sounds like that is what keeps you going–what does it feel like? Loretta: With me, I think it shows because I’m naturally a happy person. When I’m really upset with anything or anyone I’m not actually happy. And when I’m not happy it shows. I cannot even hide it because my nature is happiness. Or when I’m not people can tell. I don’t have to say anything. They can just tell even when I’m trying to hide it. People somehow know something’s up with Loretta. And so because of that I feel like the love I received from Heavenly Father comes out in how I treat and how I serve others–how I take care of my friends or family. I always pray ever since joining the church–I’ve always prayed that I want the love that Heavenly Father has for me to show. When I help someone I want them to feel Heavenly Father not me. And so that’s when I know I can feel Heavenly Father’s love–when I am eager to assist people, when I’m eager to just show love in many different forms. And when I go to the temple. I love going to the temple. I feel it that’s the one place where when I go nothing else matters. I don’t even care what’s happening. I’m happy. I feel loved. I’m reminded every time I go there. Heavenly Father makes it a point to tell me that, “I love you” and “You’re important” every time I go. So that’s why I never want leave the temple Faith Is Not Blind: And that’s the importance of your staying committed–so you can be in places where you can feel the love. I appreciate you sharing your story. It’s an extraordinary story and you’re an extraordinary person. I’m grateful that you shared your example. Thank you so much. The post Loretta (Zimbabwe) : A Convert’s Struggle to Understand the Priesthood Ban first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Eric: A Mixed-Faith Home, Divorced Parents, and Loss : Choosing a Faithful Narrative Raised in a mixed-faith home, Eric shares how he discovered his personal conversion to the Gospel despite the tragedies he experienced in his childhood. As an English Professor, Eric has a unique perspective about the power of narrative and the power of God to influence our stories. He speaks with poetic wisdom about how to find grace—even in a life full of loss. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “When in the depth of struggle to ascend my own Sinais, when the air is think and cold and my energy spent, I have felt His strength—not always, but enough.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Epilogue, “Descending to Ascend” p. 131) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: My name is Sarah d’Evegnée and this is the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. This is actually one of our flagship episodes, and for this episode I thought it would be interesting to interview someone that I know quite well. It’s my husband, Eric d’Evegnée. For this podcast we want to explore issues about faith and about questions and about doubt. Eric, let me just ask you to introduce yourself in terms of what is your background with the Church and with your testimony, related to your childhood?   Eric: Well, I was born in Connecticut and my father was a member of the Church. When I was born, he was less active and my mother was Catholic. So we were a part number family for quite a while. Then my dad–around the time that I was about four or five–was wanting to come back to Church. I have an older sister and she would have been about around eight–a little bit before her baptism age. And we started to go back to Church. My mom took a few missionary discussions and we started to get back into Church that way. My grandparents had been active members of the Church. They joined the Church over in Belgium, and they had immigrated to the United States in 1950 or 1952. Growing up, we were in the Newtown Ward in Southwestern Connecticut, and a lot of my early memories are of that Ward. remember quite vividly, we used to meet in what would be my future Junior High.  I remember our little branch met in the choir room. So we met there. At that time, if you wanted to have a Church building, you had to have the land and you had to get enough money to build the building, so our Ward would sell fudge. They would sell fudge at the Danbury Fair, and that’s how they raised enough money. They had donations too, but I remember that we built that chapel in Connecticut. Somebody donated some land and we built a chapel there. So I do have a lot of early memories of that Ward growing up and some of the people there that were just fantastic people.    Faith Is Not Blind: What I think is interesting about that you have that foundation in the Church, but maybe not in the same way that I would or a lot of people would where you have the basic structural foundation in your home with family home evening and with scripture study and other things like that. But you had the literal and figurative foundation of that chapel that you watched people build. At what point did you realize that there was something like a testimony growing? Because I’m your wife I know your background–you wouldn’t have talked about it as a testimony in your home.    Eric: Yes. So I remember early on, I think my first experience–if I can articulate it this way–is I just remember the sense of God. It was the idea that there was someone there and I could feel to some extent His presence or concern for me. And I felt that when I was really young. I can remember we had a Bible Stories record and a record player. It was a Bible Stories book and I remember reading through it–it was almost like a comic book. So they had these little comics and they had little windows with pictures of the stories. And I remember you played the record and it would just talk about the different stories. There was just something about it. I don’t know. I guess it spoke to me and I realized that there was something there. And it was that growth of that feeling of the presence of something bigger than what I could see, and it was connected to that Ward building and tp my experience in the Church. So it was kind of interesting that that sense of the presence of God came before that sort of recognition of, “Oh. It happens when I’m here or when I’m with these people.” People like my grandparents who were wonderful and like some of the ward members–the Duncans and the Proudfoots and the old members of the Newtown Ward. I felt something. And that same feeling I felt it there among those people.    Faith Is Not Blind: So there was a foundation of feeling something like God’s presence, even though maybe you weren’t completely aware of what it was. Will you share a little bit about what happened in your childhood that may have caused a sort of rift in that Spirit or that connection?   Eric: Yes. Things were difficult for my parents. The way they are in a lot of part-member families. My mother was interested in the Church and she was baptized and was a member for a short time, but things didn’t go well both in terms of my parents marriage and also my mother’s membership. So my parents were divorced and then my mother had her name taken off the records of the Church. And I don’t know completely what all of those struggles were about. So I was probably about eight or nine around this time period. And I mean I knew the struggles were there, but I don’t know if I was old enough and mature enough to really understand all of the issues. So that was a challenge. My mom didn’t want anything to do with the church anymore–I remember that quite vividly. My dad would come–he was living somewhere else–and pick us up take us to Mutual, so that was another good connection to that Ward building. But things became difficult. Life became difficult.   Faith Is Not Blind: And even more complicated was what happened after that.   Eric: Yes. My parents were divorced and my mother was struggling in a lot of different ways. And when I was 11, which was in 1987, she and I were going to get some food for dinner and we were hit by a drunk driver and she was killed.   Faith Is Not Blind: For me, I know how things ended up and it’s like a good novel. But when I hear that story I wonder. You teach English. You teach literature and so do I. And looking at this story a reader might say, “So this is the climax of the novel? How in the world is this going to have a happy ending?”  Knowing what happened to you and that complete tragic moment you described, there’s a sort of Prodigal Son moment that needed to happen, but you hadn’t caused the tragedy to happen. You hadn’t left your home. Your home had sort of left you. What brought you to yourself? Eric: This is the thing that I’m glad that we get to talk about. You’re referencing The Prodigal Son and this idea that he “comes to himself.”  We read it in the parable and it feels so quick. We go from verse to verse and his Narrative Arc is really fast. But mine wasn’t. For me, it took a decade. It was hard. I remember quite vividly. I survived the accident, but I was cut up really badly.    Faith Is Not Blind: Both physically and emotionally.   Eric: I had lots of lots of stitches. I remember one of the difficult parts of that experience–and this has been helpful dealing with my students and in talking to people who have been in similar places. I remember walking to the bathroom of the hospital when I could finally get up and walk and I see my face in the mirror with all of those stitches. And you start thinking about that Presence you used to feel. And you start wondering, “Where is that Presence now?” And it did feel in that moment that the Presence was gone.   Faith is Not Blind: The presence of God?   Eric: The presence of God.   Faith Is Not Blind: So what brought it back? Do you remember a moment when you felt like either, “I think it’s coming back” or “It might come back.” I like how you said in most real stories that aren’t parables it isn’t like a light that just switches back on.   Eric: And I think that’s important in the Prodigal Son, and we can’t just brush that off. When I said a decade, I mean a decade. It was 10 years of just feeling like I had been abandoned.   But it wasn’t all bad. And in talking to other people that have experienced similar things, I think it is kind of similar, but you feel it in bits and pieces. I had my grandparents who are Mormon. And I had my grandparents who were Catholic. And their devotion to God in both sets of grandparents was just this wonderful. They were just marvelous people. And then my dad and my sister of course were wonderful. And I had family there. So there were bits and pieces.   I remember a quote from CS Lewis. His mother died when he was 10, and he wrote a book about it called Surprised by Joy. And in the first chapter talks about his mother’s death. In the very last part of that chapter he said something really wonderful and I think it captures what it’s like to have your mom die when you’re that age–that kind of pre-adolescent age where you’re old enough to know, but not really old enough to figure things out. He said his mother’s death was like Atlantis–that’s what he compared it to. He said, “It was all sea and Islands now. The great continent had sunk like Atlantis.” And that’s how it felt. That was the predominant feeling. But like I said, there were bits and pieces of things that were beautiful and transcendent.   But to finish answering the question, I go off to the University of New Hampshire and I study there. I’m majoring in English and I go to the Cambridge student ward in Boston. That’s where my sister was going to Church. So I drive down from New Hampshire to visit her and it’s not all that far away, about 45 minutes. And the story picks up again. I’m sitting in a Church meeting in Boston and the Bishop says, “Any of you who are thinking of leaving on your mission in the next few months, raise your hand.” And I swear I’m not being melodramatic, but I’m sitting there and I look over and my arm is up. And I was shocked. It was just one of those moments. And it was from that moment on that I began to feel the pull towards that Presence. I began to feel–I’m not sure how to say this–but that Someone was watching over me and that Someone was concerned and that They were pulling me towards Them.    So I got in touch with the Bishop and withdrew from the University and was like, “Well, I guess I’m doing this.” And I did it. I just kind of threw myself into this sort of pull.   Faith Is Not Blind:  If this is a novel, I feel like I need to stare at this page for a minute and say, “Okay, wait a minute. How is this happening and how is our protagonist actually following whatever this is?” How did you know what it was and how would you describe why you followed it? Because if we’re talking about how faith isn’t blind, was it just these emotions pulling you? How would you describe how it felt then why did you follow it?   Eric: I think it’s because I recognized it.   Faith Is Not Blind: From when you were a child?   Eric: Yes. Of course it takes reasoning and experience and all those kinds of things. But at the same time it felt like an irresistible pull–in all the best ways. I don’t know how to say something “irresistible” is great when it feels like you don’t have control, but I did have control and I knew it. But there was also something that wouldn’t leave me alone. I could feel it. And, I don’t know, it felt like it was just time to be somewhere else. And that this is where I was supposed to be. And it harkens back to that early Presence that I had felt as a child. And I knew that that’s what it was.   Faith Is Not Blind: So when you followed it, when did you realize that it probably wouldn’t be easy? We would want to believe that you could just follow it and things would be easy and you would have your happily-ever-after? But on your mission do you remember a time when you encountered uncertainty and difficulty and had to confront what the consequences of that miraculous experience might be?   Eric: It’s hard because there were lots of moments.   Faith Is Not Blind: Those “bits and pieces.”   Eric: Yes. Lots of moments of feeling the Spirit about the Book of Mormon and the Prophet Joseph. I could feel those things. And I think every missionary sort of encounters that. You think, “I’ve got this message. I can feel that this is where I’m supposed to be.” And then you get there and you say something in French and they don’t want to listen to you or they don’t understand you. So that was a constant difficulty, I had this message that I feel is important, but nothing I’m doing is working–and that’s a little bit of an overstatement of course. But it wasn’t as successful as one would hope–you know if you wanted to define success by the number of baptisms you have. That was difficult. And then I end up having emergency surgery on my mission.   Faith Is Not Blind: If I didn’t already know about these details, I would be thinking right now, “That just not fair. That’s too much opposition for one person.” And I remember I actually did think that at the time. But how did you deal with that, especially because you had relatively little experience in the Church, relatively little experience with the Spirit? What kept you there instead of just running back home to Connecticut?   Eric: Well, it was the same thing. I remember it quite vividly. I was just terrified. Emergency surgery is probably never fun, but in a different language it’s even harder. And I just remember my Mission President coming in to talk to me and he just said, “Look. I don’t want to send you home for this.” And that was great. You know, he was going to always tell me what he thought and I really appreciated that. And I thought in my head, “Here’s my moment. The get-out-of-jail-free card that no one would blame me for.” But there was something about being in the hospital again. You know, I hadn’t been in the hospital since the accident. And there was something about being there. I think I felt like it was time for me to choose to sacrifice. And to say, “I’m going to do this. I’ve got the chance to go home, but I won’t.” I had felt those stirrings of God’s love. I think I wanted to say to God, “This is what I’m willing to do.” And in that moment this is what happened. It was my moment.    So I have the surgery and everything is fine. But then because of my surgery, I have to rehabilitate at the Mission President’s home, so they put me in the Mission Office. They put me in the office with some of the best Elders–just some of the best people. And it was being with them that changed my entire life. And I think it taught me something about trusting in God because I was with them. What I felt like I learned from them was how to be me and how to be a member of the Church. Because I always kind of felt like a square peg in a round hole a little bit with the Church. You know, our family was different. We did things a little bit differently than the way the families in the Mormon commercials do things. It always felt like I had to be someone entirely different than who I was growing up.    Faith Is Not Blind: I think a lot of people feel like that, Like in the Faith Is Not Blind book–where we feel like we have to be this ideal–whatever that means. This ideal in the Mormon ads. And if I’m not that somehow, then I don’t belong.    Eric: And to try to be the ideal as a Connecticut Yankee in a part-member family who grew up around more Catholics than he did Mormons, you always feel sort of on the outside. I always felt that way anytime anybody would say anything negative about the Catholics. Like at the MTC if one of the Elders said anything negative about Catholics, I would just lose my cool because was always seeing things differently.    But getting back to that experience after my surgery and getting back to that trust in God, I elect to have that surgery in France. And it opens up. And suddenly I feel like, “I can be me in the Gospel.” And I have these wonderful friends–these other missionaries. And they were just fantastic. And we loved the work and we loved each other and we had a lot of fun in an otherwise–to be honest–difficult circumstance. Southwestern France just wasn’t easy. But I loved those men like brothers, and it meant a lot to me. And what it did is, it ended up teaching me something about that trust in God and trusting in that Presence that I feel like has been with me ever since I was little.    Faith Is Not Blind: We’ve talked a lot about foundations. And this particular foundational experience was an upheaval in many ways, but it laid the foundation for you to come home and to live the rest of your life. How did that experience on your mission help to shape who you are now?   Eric: I think my level of trust was high enough that I didn’t feel fear or apprehension. I didn’t feel like God was going to harm me in any way or that something bad was going to happen. So it really comes down to that level of trust. I was like, “Oh. So this is how this works when we choose to sacrifice for God.” And I don’t quite know how to say this, but when we choose to sacrifice to Him, He blesses us for that sacrifice. And it’s not to say that I did things for blessings and it’s not to say that we’re blessed in ways that we always know or see. But that’s the trust that we need to have in Him. And now I feel like–years later after my mission–I sacrifice only now out of gratitude because I have been blessed with so much that I feel like I have to sacrifice and sacrifice to try and make up for everything He’s given me.    I think it was in this kind of moment where I learned that sacrifice is really a kind of way to cleanse your perception of what’s happening. It allows you to let go of some of the things you think that you need and to just trust in Him. And I think that’s why sacrifice exists.   Faith Is Not Blind: On a day-to-day basis, how do you maintain that feeling of sacrifice? If you break down the word sacrifice, the root “sacra” means making something holy. How do you still do that now? We have seven kids and a busy life. You’re teaching students. What does that look like now?   Eric: I think a lot of it has to do with the reason, it has to do with the motivation. The reason why I do things–those interactions with our children, or those interactions with the students, and it’s part of the reason why I’m an English Professor. I feel like stories and narrative and language have given me things that have helped me not only professionally, but also spiritually. What I try to do in my classes is try to think of what my motivation is for teaching my students. A lot of it is that I want to give them something that can help them later in their lives. And I think about that with our own children–that motivation to want to help people so that they won’t have to be where I was when I was struggling so much. I try to give them tools and ideas that can help them in their future and help them in their relationship with God. And that’s a way that I sacrifice and it’s the way that I honor Him because of the things He’s given me.   Faith Is Not Blind: One of the reasons that I love your story–and this is why this is one of the first stories I wanted to tell on our podcast– is because obviously I love you and your story, but it’s not an ideal story. It’s not an easy story. But it’s a story that recognizes the value of just placing God in our story. Maybe the last question I would ask is: what would you say to people who might feel like their story is broken and they don’t know how to keep going or they don’t know how to get that ideal story? I know you talk about it a lot with your students, but what’s the main thing that we could end on?   Eric: You know, it’s interesting as you were talking about people that feel broken or their stories feel broken. I mean, in some ways it may explain my love of 20th century American literature, with the modernist and postmodernist tradition. It’s not well known for its neat and tidy plots. It has open-ended endings and lots of questions.    Faith Is Not Blind: My students always say, “Why do we have to read such depressing stories?” And your story could be viewed that way: “Oh, what a depressing story.” But you don’t see it that way. Why not?   Eric: I haven’t thought about these two things being related before, but it connects to the interpretive process in 20th Century American literature. For example, you read a story and sometimes my students are like, “What just happened?” There is no apparent meaning. There is no “and thus we see” at the end of it. And I think that’s the moment when we can apply our interpretive skills to it and say, “Okay. So out of this experience, what could we learn from it?” And I think you can see maybe a little bit of a biographical connection to those stories for me. My students are always a little bit like, “Why do you like stories like this?” And I always tell them, “It’s because they’re all really good stories.” But I also know there’s a biographical connection. That’s how I lived for half of my life and more. But I think it’s a great skill to say, “Here is this story and here is this thing you see happening. We need to ask ourselves the question: “What could this mean?”   Faith Is Not Blind: Well, because so often as a student or even as a reader of our own story or other people’s stories, we want to say, “Tell me what it means.” Or even in the temple, we want to say, “Tell me exactly what this means.” Why do you think that that’s a better question?   Eric: I actually say this to my students. I tell them that “What does it mean?” is the wrong question, which shocks them. And then I say to them that the better question is “What could it mean?” The question “What could it mean?” suggests that there are possibilities. Then what we need to figure out is what are those possibilities and out of those possibilities which interpretation is best. In literature, we talk about textual evidence. We talk about form and content and all those types of things, but I think there’s something to be said about that question when it comes to faith, and especially when it comes to faith and perplexing experiences that we have. We have experiences that are downright brutal. I mean, my mother’s story doesn’t have some neat and tidy ending to it. And I think about this: now I’m 43 and my mother died at 38. I’m five years older than she ever was. And I keep thinking she never got a chance to revise her story. And I look back on that and I think, “Wow. There’s a lack of a denouement, a lack of resolution to her story.” But that being said, you can still go back with an experience like or with a life like that and ask the question, “What could it mean?” Faith Is Not Blind: Well, I like that because it not only gives it analytical depth, but potential. What could it mean in the future?   Eric: And that’s what Christ’s redemption does to all of our stories. It gives us that potential in the future–the kind of ending that we would like. We may not see that kind of ending until way off in the eternities, but Christ’s redemption can redeem us from anything that happens to us in our lives–any of the things that interrupt the story.    Faith Is Not Blind: If we choose to make him a part of the story. And that’s what I love so much about your story. I appreciate you sharing it with me and with whoever gets to listen to it because I have faith in your happily-ever-after because. . .    Eric: Because you’re it.   Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. And your happily-ever-after is mine too. Thank you for sharing. And thank you for listening. This was Eric d’Evegnée and this is the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. Thank you for joining us. The post Eric: A Mixed-Faith Home, Divorced Parents, and Loss : Choosing a Faithful Narrative first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Leif Mattsson (Sweden): Research Helped Me Nurture My Faith and Nurture Others For Leif Mattsson, building the kingdom has meant not only appreciating his heritage of faith and walking three miles to church when he was a child, but also finding out for himself that what his ”grandfather and father and mother knew and felt was true.” His father counseled him and his three brothers: “You have to get your own testimony” so he did. As a young college student in the 60’s, he took the initiative to ask his religion professors at BYU about church history and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Appreciating the legacy of faith in his family has also meant learning to offer more empathy to those in his family who have struggled or who have left the church. He has sensed how much pain they have experienced as they have “felt like we have turned our backs on them.” Leif says he now, “gives less advice and listens more” in order to preserve the relationships and help them feel that he loves them. The post Leif Mattsson (Sweden): Research Helped Me Nurture My Faith and Nurture Others first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Bill: An Attorney’s Insights About the Burden of Proof and Weighing Evidence As a trial lawyer, Bill has a unique perspective about using the concept of the burden of proof when doing religious research. Drawing on their years of legal experience, Elder Hafen and Bill discuss how to weigh evidence and listen to both sides as a juror might in a court case. Bill also shares how his battle with cancer expanded the strength of revelatory evidence in his life. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Both common sense and our legal system tell us that someone accused of wrongdoing is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And whoever makes the accusation carries the burden of proof to confirm the guilt. Raising questions or doubts alone would never, legally or logically, carry that burden.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 4, “Some Internet Soft Spots,” pages 37-38) FULL TRANSCRIPT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith is not Blind Podcast. I’m Bruce Hafen. Today we’re in Denver talking to Bill Barnett. Thanks for being with us today. Bill: I’m glad to be here. Faith Is Not Blind: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up? Bill: I was born in Texas, but my father was a national park ranger. So by the time I got to junior high school I moved from Texas and I lived in Bryce Canyon National Park, Mount Rainier National Park, and  Yellowstone National Park. Faith Is Not Blind: When did you join the church? Bill:  When I was a freshman in college, so that was in 1967. Faith Is Not Blind:  Had your parents been religious? Did you have a religious background? Bill: My parents were not religious at all. They weren’t atheistic, but we didn’t go to church Because we lived in the national parks, normally there were no schools close by and so I went away to school at a school called Wasatch Academy in Mount Pleasant Utah. Faith Is Not Blind: How did you end up there? Bill: Because at that time we lived in Bryce Canyon. I had started off at Shawnigan Lake Boys School in Canada, which is on Vancouver Island, because my mother’s Canadian. But then when I moved to Bryce Canyon, Wasatch Academy was much closer and it had a reputation for having Park Service kids.  Faith Is Not Blind: Is that how you found the Church? Bill: Yes it was. I dated a girl and she handed me a copy of A Marvelous Work and A Wonder. So that’s where it all started. Once I graduated from Wasatch Academy, I went to Southern Methodist University in Dallas Texas and that’s where I was baptized. I joined the church when I was a freshman at SMU.  Faith Is Not Blind: I’m interested in what formed your testimony. What formed it? What informed it? What was it like in the early stages and then what did it become like as time went on? Bill: I think early on it was driven more by the fact that I had a girlfriend who was a member of the Church and wouldn’t have anything to do with me unless I joined the Church. That kind of started it.  I read A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and then I read the Book of Mormon and I joined the Church, but I didn’t really know a lot about it. Eventually I was no longer with that young girl, but I didn’t leave the Church. I kind of stayed in the Church and I’m amazed that I did back in those early days. Because at SMU–this was in 1967 and 68 before the internet–they would have books of the school that said all the courses involved in the school and what the school was and that sort of thing. At SMU there was a student body population back then of maybe eight to ten thousand. At the very back of that book iit had the different denominations of people that were in various churches. So it had Methodists 7,000, Episcopalians a thousand, Baptists 800, and then it came down to Mormons–one.  Faith Is Not Blind: That was you. Bill: That was me. I had joined a fraternity back then and as a result of being in a fraternity I wanted to go have fun with my fraternity brothers. I basically wanted to be able to do whatever I want without consequences–the doctrine of Nehor. I had joined the Church and I don’t know how much I knew that the Church was true back then. It felt good, but I don’t know how strong my testimony was. But it felt good enough that I couldn’t just go drinking and carousing and stuff with my fraternity brothers unless I felt I could prove the Church was wrong. So I tried reading every anti-Mormon book I could get my hands on that existed back in the 1960’s. So this would be Fawn Brodie’s No Man Knows My History and Mormonism Unveiled, The Godmakers. But for whatever reason, when I would read their books and I would come to a footnote–I love libraries–I’d wander through the stacks to see where they were coming up with this stuff. And I’d look up the quote and I go, “I don’t know how they could say this in the book. What they’re quoting doesn’t say what they’re saying that it says. And so I did that for several years. And while I definitely found that I could not disprove the church by doing that, but it didn’t prove the church either.  Faith Is Not Blind: So why did it not disprove the church if you read that much stuff?  Bill: I mean, I’ve read it all. I’ve continued reading that stuff into the modern day. I listened to John Dehlin, I’ve read Martin Snuffer, I read the CES letter and I have examined all of their stuff and it’s weak. I am a lawyer by trade but back and I didn’t know it. b\But I was protected enough that I shifted the burden of proof to them, not to the church having to prove it was true. But they had to prove it was not true. And their arguments were just weak. They were not supported logically. They were not supported factually. They had more of an agenda than an honest perception of looking for the truth. Faith Is Not Blind: That’s a very interesting point and it’s an unusual one, Bill, because you’re a lawyer. The term “burden of proof” is familiar to you and it is to me. What does it mean and how do you apply it to this situation?  Bill: Well, in my situation I did a lot of criminal defense work and in criminal defense work I’d have to stand in front of a jury and my job was to convince them that the prosecution had not proven their case against my client beyond a reasonable doubt. AndI used to always explain to juries that there were different amounts of burden of proof. If you have an area like this and this is non-belief over here and total belief over here, that there could be a belief in the middle which is a “preponderance of the evidence”–I believe it 51% to 49%. Faith Is Not Blind: Meaning that it’s 51% more likely that it’s this way or that way. Bill:  And then the next level of burden of proof would be “clear and convincing evidence,” which I would always tell juries is about 75% or so. And the DA’s would always object, but the judges always let me do it anyway.  Faith Is Not Blind: I just want to be sure that people grasp this because I think it’s helpful. Could we say with 75%–if the standard in a legal case is clear and convincing evidence–does that mean it is the likelihood that it’s true is 75%? The probability? Is that a simple way to say that? Bill: The probability is high at that point. So you’ve gone from just that it’s likely to it’s very probable. And then in criminal cases the burden is “beyond a reasonable doubt” which means that you’ve got to be very very convinced. Faith Is Not Blind: So beyond 75%? Bill: I would tell juries that it’s 90-95%. You’ve got to be pretty doggone sure before we can convict someone. I feel that in my situation I was very lucky. When I was younger I didn’t know that’s what I was doing, but I would read the anti-LDS or anti-Mormon literature and they weren’t even coming close to approaching burdens of proof.  Faith Is Not Blind: If I understood you right, when said you started off you were trying to disprove the Church.  Bill: My motive was to disprove the Church and it was for purely hedonistic reasons. I wanted to go be a fraternity kid that could drink, carouse, have illicit sexual relations–whatever it was back in those days of the 60’s. I wanted to be able to do that but my conscience wouldn’t let me do that unless I knew that the Church was not true. And so I figured I would read the anti stuff to prove the Church is not true. I would never recommend it to anybody–but for whatever reason I was absolutely driven to study. I’ve been driven my whole life to the study of epistemology–which is a study of knowledge–ontology, quantum physics, evolution–I just have an insatiable curiosity. And I had it back then. So I would read these books, but I’d go. “Man, that that statement is awfully one-sided.”  I mean even in criminal cases we have jury instructions where we tell the jury, “When you listen to this witness, does this witness have an axe to grind or does he have a connection to one side of the case or the other? Does he have something that he needs to prove? Why should you believe this witness?”  We do the same thing with experts. I had numerous trials where my expert argues against their expert and we have jury instructions to say, This is what you’ve got to go through to determine whether you believe this person.” You know, what is their recall of the facts, what is their connection to the case, what would make you believe them? I did not know I was doing it when I was younger. I knew I was doing it when I was older, but when I was younger that’s what I was doing. I was by instinct a very good juror. And so I would read from Brody’s No Man Knows My History– and that was probably the first anti-Mormon book I read back in the sixties–and everybody said how great a scholar she was. And  here I am a freshman and sophomore in college and I would read that and go, “This is not good scholarship.” Faith Is Not Blind: Some of that is because you were reading the footnotes. Bill: And you should do the same thing on the internet today. If you just read it and accept it as true you’re a dead duck. You have to literally have a sufficient curiosity to challenge it–to be able to get back to square one of philosophy. I look at all the anti stuff as–it’s like the branches and leaves of a tree. Okay, so their opinions are the leaves: “The Church isn’t true because the book of Abraham wasn’t written properly or the words don’t match up with the papyri.” That’s an opinion. If you’ve got that opinion, that’s fine, but you’d better back it up. So the next thing is, “What is the premise upon which that opinion is based?”  and you just keep backing up that premise till you get to the foundation. And when you get to the foundation it really becomes pretty simple and that is, “Did Joseph Smith see what he saw? Is the Book of Mormon true?” And when you get back to that foundation it makes the other stuff kind of diminish and go away.  Faith Is Not Blind: Very interesting. From your experience you said when a jury is listening to a witness you try to tell them as a courtroom lawyer to consider what possible motives this person may have for interpreting the situation this way or that way. Can you apply that to people who are reading about the Church online? How are they supposed to know what somebody’s motive is?  Bill:  I would suggest that they need to do. . . Well, there are only four ways you can learn things. There’s the analytical method or the rational method–this is just epistemology stuff. So analytical/rational–two plus two is four. You’re thinking in your own mind. It’s kind of like when in Doctrine and Covenants 9 when the Lord says to Oliver Cowdrey, “You took no thought.” You’ve got to think it out in your own mind. So that’s one way of learning. Typically Einstein would do thought experience. That’s what that is–analytical. The second way is epistemological or experience–what we’ve actually experienced. That’s the scientific method. You can do a test. You can try it. The third method is by learning and by authority. So if you’re my professor and I believe everything you say and then I find out that something you did is wrong my testimony is gone–it’s going to fall apart. And the fourth one is by Intuition or we would say “revelation” in the Church. Now those are the only four ways you can learn anything. There are no other ways.  But when you get to the end of The Book of Mormon the Lord says, “When you read these things if you ask with a sincere heart and an open mind I will disclose it to you by the Holy Ghost.” Also when you’re baptized, what’s the first thing that happens after you’re baptized? You’re given the gift of the Holy Ghost. And I thought about that a long time. Why is that the case? And the reason is, in my mind, because that is our direct conduit with our Heavenly Father and and it’s the only of the four methods of learning– it’s the only one where we are totally completely and personally responsible. If you screw up analytical reasoning, maybe you just have a logical fallacy that messes up your thinking. If you do an experiment wrong that messes up your beliefs. If you listen to the wrong authority–if you listen to an anti-mormon and just take their word at face value–then your belief is built upon sand. The only one that is absolutely true–which is perhaps the hardest for people to understand and to feel–is the inspiration and Revelation. But we all feel uncomfortable with that because we go, “I feel this way, but is that me or am I just feeling this way?”  And so until you get to a point where you learn to trust that, you can be pulled and drawn by these other three methods. So if you’re having a faith crisis in the Church, you need to understand that. Testimony is built on all four ways of learning. And I’ve spent my whole life engaged in all four ways of learning. But it was primarily the first three ways and not the revelatory way until I got older in my life. Faith Is Not Blind: You said an interesting thing about the “revelatory way”and the Holy Ghost and the promise of Moroni in Moroni 10:4 and 5 which I hadn’t thought about in quite the way you put it. The reason that one is so significant is not just because it’s the Holy Ghost, but because he connects you to who? Bill: It connects you straight to your Heavenly Father. And now you’re personally responsible for that.  Faith Is Not Blind: It’s the sort of communications vehicle between you and God. And when that relationship is strong, that’s a source of knowledge  Bill: It’s like Mark Twain said in Huckleberry Finn: “You can’t pray a lie.”  So the bottom line is that if you are true to that and your Heavenly Father,  you can’t go wrong. Faith is Not Blind: So back to the question about motive. What would you say to somebody who is wanting to learn about the church and they are looking at material that’s online and they don’t know who it is from. You know, you can’t tell that. You’ve clicked on Google and you’ve got a list. You go read about it. And you don’t know whether it came from the Church or the Church’s worst enemy. You were saying earlier that unless you know the motives of the person who wrote it, you can’t really evaluate the strength of their testimony. How would you help somebody deal with the motive problem? Bill: You’ve got you’ve got to stop long enough to ask yourself. “Why is this person writing this? Is this person really being honest or is this person trying to convince me?” If a person is really honest they don’t care whether you accept it or not. If they use adjectives–any adjectives which tilt things–you can start to get suspicious. And that goes both ways. You can get overzealous people that want somebody to believe. You can get somebody in the Church who is overzealous that twists it the other way. That’s wrong too. I know that with detectives (and I used to have a pretty good investigator that would use kind of a forensic analysis and people’s statements to try to determine whether they were telling the truth or not) they do that with the words they use and by the way they put together some of their sentences, by the adjectives they used. And he could come back to me and say, “This guy is lying.”  And then it was a matter of trying to find out why. But I’m not good at that and that that takes a lot of skill. But basically I would say you have to be like a juror. You have to be like a juror in the case. So if you read this anti-Church stuff on the web, you’ve got to at least be a juror and say, “Hey, I’m going to give the other side equal opportunity.”  Faith Is Not Blind: But it doesn’t say “Anti” at the top of the page you’re reading. Bill: But you’ll know. There are several websites out there that try to pretend that they are fair and that they are honest. I don’t know if you want them named in here, but I’ve listened to them all. I’ve read the CES letter. I have listened to John Dehlin and I’ve read Denver Snuffer stuff. And you can pick up on it. They have an agenda and you can tell by their adjectives. It started with Fawn Brodie and No Man Knows My History. I could tell by her adjectives that she was not fair. Faith s Not Blind: When you say that kind of material has an agenda, what do you mean? Bill: It wants to convince you that the Church is not true. But it’s not just saying here’s a problem. It doesn’t ask an open-ended question. It’s like a leading question that we would use in court. It doesn’t say, “How did Joseph Smith translate or dictate or produce the Book of Abraham?” It doesn’t say that. It makes assumptions. For example, it makes an assumption about the Book of Abraham, that the papyri that we have in the Book of Mormon doesn’t match up with what the Book of Abraham says and therefore he translated it wrong. They’re assuming that he had something in front of him and that he was translating and that isn’t how it happened at all. But that’s how a website like that would treat that. Faith Is Not Blind: This has really been helpful, Bill. And I want to repeat what is especially interesting to me about this. And that is when you first ran across the discoveries that you’ve described here about the difficulties with really believing the evidence of critics of the church was when you yourself were trying to disprove the Church. So you were predisposed to want to accept that. But there was something really in your neutrality that would help you with your questions. Bill: I was lucky. I was protected. I went through that and after that my next step was when I had another question. I went, “Good grief. How do I even know Christianity is true?” So I went and I bought the scriptures of every religion in the world. And I read Lao Tse Tung and I read many things about Buddhism (they don’t have scriptures but I read parts of the Tripitaka.)  I read the Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism. I bought a Quran and I read that because I went, “You know,  I feel pretty good about joining the Church, but I don’t know that Christianity is even true.”  So I had to back up at that  point and I read all those scriptures. It became really apparent to me when I did that that Christianity was true. That became very apparent to me just reading the scriptures. And I didn’t go to commentaries on what the Quran says. I didn’t go to commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita. I just read the scriptures themselves. I wanted to be able to read it, to get it straight from the horse’s mouth.  I did not want it to be interpreted by somebody else.  I thought, “I’m a smart guy. I can understand what this is supposed to mean.”  So I paid the price and I did all that. And after I did all that, I didn’t have any trouble after that. I thought, “Christianity is true.”  And with Christianity, I didn’t have the problems of which church is right. To me, it was the Catholics or the Mormons. Those are the only two that really had a leg to stand on in my opinion.  And the LDS church just seemed absolutely true.  So for the next 20 years, I was a good, faithful Mormon. On the scale of “Beyond Reasonable Doubt,”  I was to the point of “Beyond Reasonable Doubt,” but the door was still cracked open a little bit, And then I got cancer and I went into the hospital. It was for prostate cancer. It was a very aggressive prostate cancer that had metastasized. So surgery was pretty much the only option because it was aggressive and it had to be done right then. Even so, they told me, “You’ll be in the hospital one night and maybe you’ll be in the hospital two nights.”  And everything went wrong. I was in the hospital for 45 days. The first three or four days were life-or-death. They had to perform surgery several times. They quarantined me in the hospital because they thought I had that skin-eating bacterial stuff. And they didn’t know if I was going to live or not. This just happened this past October, but during that time, during that 45 days, I had experiences that closed the door. The veil was literally pierced. And I don’t want to go too far into that or make people think I saw or did more than I saw or did. But I will say I used to get mad at President Packer because he’d say, “These things are sacred. They’re not secret. And that’s why we don’t talk about them.”  And I used to wonder about the verse about Christ praying “words that cannot be repeated or said” And I admit I got upset at President Packer, thinking, “Well, if you saw Jesus, why didn’t you just say it instead of saying it’s sacred and not secret.” And now I know. I had experiences during that 45 days when literally my life was in the balance. And I related to the Martin Handcart Company what they learned through those extremities. At one point I had people come to me and say, “You ought to sue these doctors. They really messed up.” There’s no way I was going to do that. I’m a lawyer. I know what that involves. I also know my doctor had nothing but the best of intentions for me. It’s just some stuff happened and there’s no way I was going to sue him. But I remember reading about a Martin Handcart Company Sunday School class in Salt Lake City. People said they should have never sent them out that late they criticized the leaders of the church for sending out the handcart company so late. And an old man gets up in the Sunday School class and says, “You know nothing of what you’re talking about. Yes, we had some tough times in the handcart company, but it was through our extremities that we learned of God. And I would never change it for anything.”   My experience in the hospital is the same thing. There is no way I would want to go through that again. There were times I was praying so fervently. I wanted the Lord to either take me or to take away the pain. It was so bad that I didn’t care whether I lived or died. I just wanted it to end. But through that experience any doubt that I had was removed. I learned that God is there. He is our Heavenly Father.  He knows each and every one of us personally–very personally. I know that Jesus is our brother, that he atoned for each of us individually. I was not a blanket Atonement. He knows each one of us personally and what we have gone through. He knows exactly what we experience because he has experienced it. When we cry tears, He’s crying too because he’s already cried the tears that we’re crying. I know that and I’m like President Packer now. I will not go into it because it is sacred. But I will bear my testimony that it’s absolutely true. And I don’t like saying “the church is true” because we’ve said that in Sacrament Meetings for forever and people get out and say that out of custom and tradition. To me as a lawyer to say, “I know it’s true,” your words better be right.  You’d better be accurate. I built my whole trial career on the exactness of words and made a big deal of it, so I don’t like that phrase “the church is true.”  But I do like the phrase “I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth.” Is it perfect? No. As leaders, are we perfect? No. But I know that it is led and given to us to the extent that we can understand.  I can only understand to a certain point. Aad if the Lord tries to explain something beyond what  I can understand,  just like I’m trying to express to you now,  I can only go to a certain point. And so anyone that has a crisis of faith, I would strongly say, “Be a juror. Listen to both sides before you make that decision. And when you do listen, be as honest and open-minded as you can. Don’t have an agenda going into it.” Now I had an agenda when I started. I wanted to leave the Church and be a wild fraternity brother and have no consequences for it, but for whatever reason my makeup didn’t didn’t allow that to happen. But I would say have an open mind and listen to both sides. If you read something that’s “Anti” then go to those websites that will answer those questions. You can go to the Neal Maxwell Institute Website. You can go to the Fair Mormon Website. You can find books that are written by apologists of the Church. You can listen to podcasts. You can watch on YouTube talks by Dan Peterson and Truman Madsen. There are other people that I have high regard for. And when you listen to both sides, if you have an open heart, you can sit quietly and meditate about it. David O McKay said meditation is important. And I do that even though that’s rather a Buddhist way of doing. If you listen in your mind and heart quietly, the truth will come. Have confidence in that. If it makes you feel good, it’s probably the Lord telling you something. But you have to realize where you are and how much you know. That’s going to be filtered to an extent. The feelings are going to be stronger or lesser depending on how much knowledge you have. Faith Is Not Blind: Bill, that’s really valuable. It’s so personal. It’s so experience-based. And I really thank you for being here and sharing with us today. Bill: It was a pleasure to be here. Thank you for letting me come in.  The post Bill: An Attorney’s Insights About the Burden of Proof and Weighing Evidence first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Dan Ellsworth: Surviving a Faith Crisis and Learning About Redemption Dan Ellsworth says his faith crisis made him feel like “a bomb went off.” In this episode, Dan’s shares the personal details and painful realities that accompanied his own crisis of faith. He then describes how he eventually found personal redemption that helped him not only survive the crisis but emerge from it a stronger, more spiritually settled person. Dan also offers seasoned advice that will help both those experiencing a faith crisis and those who have loved ones struggling with deep doubts. FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: I’m in the DC Area with Dan Ellsworth. Dan is someone that we&#8217;ve been wanting to talk to for a few months&#8211;since we started the podcast actually&#8211;because he&#8217;s somewhat of an expert in what we sometimes call the faith crisis community in the church. He actually is part of a group called Uplift and he&#8217;s done wonderful work there. They have a Facebook group and they have other resources for people who are trying to find help and advice for faith tension and faith crises and Dan has a lot of good principle-based advice. Today, though, we&#8217;re going to ask him about his personal story. I was thinking about the good work that Dan has done and I thought about a quote from Neil Postman. He&#8217;s a great artist and storyteller and he said that “without are ourselves die and without a story ourselves die.”  Dan has done other podcast interviews where shares principles and I would encourage you to listen to those. But today we&#8217;re going to talk about his story&#8211;his personal story.  So thank you for being here, for being willing to share part of yourself with us. If you can just introduce yourself a little bit, just your profession and then also what your background is in the church. Dan: I work with organizations on technology consulting and management consulting, helping them think through and implement challenging solutions to problems that they have that they need to fix, things they need to improve.  And I enjoy that. It gives me a lot of exposure to varieties of things that people do. Faith Is Not Blind: I think in an interesting way it sounds like it corresponds with your work in the Faith Community. Dan: Yes, it does. I grew up in the church in Southern California, served a mission in Brazil and loved it. And then after my mission while I was at BYU, I got some exposure to what we call “the complexity,” and some exposure to some of the more challenging issues in church history. But even before that I would say on my mission I had several experiences where&#8211;you know how when we grow up and we go through primary and Seminary we build these very simple mental models of how concepts in our faith are supposed to work and we cherish these mental models? These mental models are emotionally cemented within us by the primary songs that we sang and and in our youth conferences and things like that. Then as you mature and you can you go through things, some of these models you realize need to be reworked. Faith Is Not Blind: Let’s talk about your faith before your mission, before you had had any complexity or much complexity anyway. How did you view faith? What did it feel like? Because I want to contrast it so that people can feel what that sort of expectation failure felt like. Dan: I had experiences before my mission that at a minimum let me know that God is involved in the work of the church. I mean, undoubtedly I had a testimony of Christ. I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Faith Is Not Blind: Could you share a specific one that you felt like started your testimony? Dan: My testimony started with Christ. I was just kind of a difficult kid to raise. I was always pushing boundaries. I just kind of a rebellious kid, and there came a point where I was unhappy, almost like when Enos is out hunting and he just gets to thinking and wondering if these things that he’s been taught about Jesus Christ&#8211;are they real? And that&#8217;s what happened to me. I had an experience one day where I just asked the question, one day where I just honestly asked the question in my mind. And right then and there I received an answer. Sometimes I&#8217;m hesitant to share that because I know that for some people it doesn’t happen that way. But it did happen to me and it was a very powerful experience. I am very much into music and art and I love music that is emotive&#8211;not sentimental but with an emotive melody and that kind of thing, so I know I&#8217;m able to differentiate between emotions and something that is a genuinely spiritual experience. And the experience I had was unlike anything I had ever felt before or experienced before. And so that was my first what I would call a spiritual experience. Faith Is Not Blind: After you had that experience did it come into play with some of the complexity later? Dan: Maybe. It&#8217;s hard to say. After that experience I had a couple of experiences like that and then I served my mission. On my mission I actually saw some of what we call complexity in some experience. Faith Is Not Blind: Can you share one of them? Dan: Okay. I got to be very very close friends with a family down in Brazil and they were people of African descent. And we would sit down to lunch with this family and their kids loved me and my companion. We just loved these kids&#8211;talking and playing with them. And the mom, one day at lunch she looked at me and she said, “Elder Ellsworth, do you think that I was unfaithful in the pre-existence?” I had no clue what she was even hinting at when she asked me. I said, “No. Why?” She said, “Because some people do think that I was unfaithful in the pre-existence and that&#8217;s why my skin is darker than yours.” I thought that can&#8217;t be what people think and I went back that night and I lived with my Zone Leaders and I asked my Zone Leader, “What do you make of this?” And he said, “Oh yeah. Yeah, I believe that some people were fence sitters and that&#8217;s why they&#8217;re born on earth with darker skin.” And that just didn&#8217;t sit right with me. It just didn&#8217;t taste right. So when we went back and talked with them again I told her, “I know that other people believe that, but I don&#8217;t believe that about you and I don&#8217;t have an answer for you on this particular question but I know that I don&#8217;t believe that.”  It didn&#8217;t taste right to me. Faith Is Not Blind: I think some people might have said, “Well if the Zone Leader or anything with the word ‘leader’ after it if they said that, it must be true.” How were you able to say “I need to parse this out myself if it doesn&#8217;t taste right to me?”  Because that&#8217;s pretty young to be able to that. Dan: I had an independent streak, though, about who thought certain ways and felt certain ways. So when my Zone Leader said that I was comfortable saying no. Faith Is Not Blind: You said that after your mission you had some experiences with complexity. Will you share with us what that felt like to go through that complexity? We tend to throw around the words “faith crisis” a lot and I know people define it differently, but I want you to talk about what that felt like to you. Dan: It felt like I just had kind of been building up this mental model. Like when we learn that prophets have a worldview and a culture that they operate within. That the leadership of the church&#8211;they actually do research as they seek revelation. A lot of people find that out and that&#8217;s shocking. We think that they just go in and pray and the answer comes and that&#8217;s it. No. They study, they research,  they use data, they use professional consultants to evaluate issues. That is shocking for some people. Faith Is Not Blind: Did you feel like you were in shock not at that point or did it just gradually build up over time? Dan: It was years and years of more and more of those things adding up and then there came a point where I came across some issues in biblical studies and it was like that metaphor of the shelf breaking. I didn&#8217;t know how in the world to process what I&#8217;m studying and what I&#8217;m learning and what I&#8217;m reading. Not only that, but in light of what I&#8217;m learning, I don&#8217;t know how to process what I thought I had known and in the past. And things I&#8217;ve experienced. I didn&#8217;t know how to process anything at that point. And when you get to that point where the shelf breaks. And I mean the feeling is hard to describe. It just feels like a bomb has gone off in your soul and everything is leveled and you don&#8217;t know which way is up. It was very hard. And when you get to that point there are forks in the road and you have decisions to make. You have emotional decisions to make. And there are certain patterns of thinking and patterns of feeling that you can decide to embrace and there are others that you can decide not to embrace. And there are courses of action that you can take. The first thing that I did was I decided to tell my wife that I didn’t know if I could ever be a believing member of the church again. And that was a hard thing to say. But then I said, “I&#8217;m going to start fasting every week for a period of time.” It was going to be months of fasting every weekend and I said, “At the end of the year I&#8217;m going to just take inventory of where I&#8217;m at and see if I&#8217;ve had any breakthroughs or anything.” And I did that and it was fantastic. It&#8217;s hard to describe the value of that particular decision I made. Faith Is Not Blind: Most people wouldn&#8217;t think that fasting during the week is fantastic. What was fantastic about it? Dan: It&#8217;s probably one of our most underappreciated mechanisms for spirituality. I had done it a few years earlier. I had taken a job in a war zone in Baghdad and I knew that during the year that I was there I was going to be around a lot of wild people&#8211;crazy characters&#8211;and would there be a lot of temptations and things like that. And I decided to fast every week that year and it helped me get through that year spiritually. So I thought I’d  just try it again. And with faith crises there&#8217;s such a strong emotional component. There’s a temptation to gravitate towards anger and accusation and resentment and blaming and all of those things. Fasting is powerful because it really kind of does something to you so you’re able to kind of step back from your instincts and sort of slow down. Faith Is Not Blind: I noticed earlier you talked about how you had emotional issues that you recognized and intellectual issues and it seems like you kind of compartmentalised them. Did that help to fast because those issues are so difficult. How do you feel like you could acknowledge the emotions without letting them take over both compartments? Dan: Fasting king of schools your emotional state. During that time I also said, “Okay while I&#8217;m fasting, I&#8217;m going to do all of the Sunday School answers&#8211;like scripture reading, serving, etc.” I decided to do scripture reading even while my conceptualization of scripture was changing&#8211;very much changing. I was trying to figure it out. I was in complexity, but it was more than complexity. It was almost like just a severe doubting complexity and I I did not know if it was possible to ever engage with scripture with a chosen simplicity, where I can just sit down and read and benefit from it. But  I decided, “I&#8217;m just going to do it anyway, Let&#8217;s see what happens. What harm could there be in fasting every week, serving, going to church, reading my scriptures, and just maintaining a good relationship with my community? What harm could there be?” Faith Is Not Blind: What did you do when the gnawing feelings came?  I know sometimes when people are in the middle of it and they&#8217;re trying to read the scriptures or pray that there are still these feelings. What did you do? Dan: The gnawing feelings were there, but I had just a few little insights and breakthroughs and little things happened during that time. Around that time a friend of mine who was out of the church and I almost never talk&#8211;we will go for years without talking&#8211; during that time he sent me a message and just said, “Hey for some reason I felt like I needed to check on you and see how you&#8217;re doing.”  I just kind of knew, Okay that is how God used to talk to me.” Faith Is Not Blind: Right. This is the language that He used to use. Dan:  I remember&#8211;and I tell this story fairly frequently&#8211;there was a lady in my ward who got up and told her conversion story in a testimony meeting and it was so powerful. She talked about her life growing up overseas, joining the church, and talking about her experiences with her family and challenges with her family and about doing temple work in a difficult family situation. And I watched her tell her story in sacrament meeting and I said, “That is the religion that I want. What she is telling from the pulpit right now&#8211;that&#8217;s the religion that I want.” Faith Is Not Blind: What was it about it? Dan: I&#8217;ve always gravitated towards redemption stories. And this was just real, raw, authentic. You know, a powerful story of the redemption of a family. I&#8217;m not a lawyer, but I like to think in terms of law. You know when we talked about “witnesses” and “testimony?” I said ,”Here&#8217;s a witness and do I believe her testimony or no?t I have a choice right now.” Again we have forks in the road. I can choose whether or not to believe this, but I chose to believe. Faith Is Not Blind: Did that help you to acknowledge that you had the agency to choose? Just like you had as a missionary? Dan: I’m just thinking again in legal terms. Is there anything in her testimony that would discredit her as a witness? Nothing. I mean, it was just a sober-minded intelligent human being speaking the truth. A very,very credible witness. So again, you know there are forks in the road. Do I believe witnesses or not? That is a major fork in the road for somebody. Faith Is Not Blind: You talked earlier about the experience that you had as an adolescent that was so powerful when you recognized the Spirit. How was this experience different? If we held the two up and compared them, how would they compare? Dan: This experience was different because I didn&#8217;t choose how to feel. In some of my previous spiritual experiences they just happened. Nothing about me chose to have this overwhelming feeling or to feel a certain way. I could choose how I responded to this. There were other experiences. I had taken a leap of faith to go out with the missionaries and teach a discussion, and I go out with the missionaries and I&#8217;m thinking, “I have nothing to offer. I don&#8217;t know why I&#8217;m doing this other than I appreciated it when people did it when I was a missionary.”  And we went and we had an appointment. We went and talked to a young man and he had questions in that visit that were exactly the kinds of things that I had been stuck on about the nature of scripture.” And the missionaries were so grateful that I was with them because they didn’t know how to answer those questions. And I walked out of the house and I just said, “You&#8217;ve got to be kidding me.” I never had anybody ask me those kinds of questions anywhere. Just taking this leap of faith things happened and those things added up for a while. And after several years there came a point where I just said, “Okay but I&#8217;m no longer in faith crisis. I&#8217;m a fully believing, committed member of the church.” And that&#8217;s one of the first things I talk about when somebody comes to us in faith crisis. I say, “You have all the time in the world to work through this.” Faith Is Not Blind: No rush. Dan: No rush. I know it hurts and  I know you&#8217;re going to church and feeling like you can&#8217;t relate to anybody around you. I know that that hurts. I&#8217;ve been there are a lot of very painful feel things that you feel in the situation&#8211;the isolation, the loneliness, all of that. It&#8217;s very real. But if you can just internalize the fact that you have so much time to work through these questions. You have all the time in the world to think through these things. Faith Is Not Blind: Even an eternity of time. Dan: Then you can go back to church and say, “Yeah, I&#8217;m uncomfortable, but I&#8217;m working at something that&#8217;s going to take a long time right now and I can I can be okay again, but it&#8217;s not going to be quick. “Again that&#8217;s something that we really try to help people understand. You have plenty of time to work through these issues and and get your bearings again. Faith Is Not Blind: I appreciate that you said you love stories of redemption. Another Storyteller, the American Storyteller Flannery O&#8217;Connor said, “The reader of today wants either mock damnation or mock redemption. They don&#8217;t understand the price of redemption.” And what I love about your story is there&#8217;s nothing “mock” about it. It’s completely real and you went through those feelings of damned, but you also have the feelings of being redeemed. Dan: I love Flannery O&#8217;Connor. I mean, she has these quotes that are just so profound and so powerful. There&#8217;s no easy way through this kind of a situation. You have time to work through it, but it&#8217;s going to be hard. That’s another thing that I try to convey. One of the things that we probably are not taught as much as we should be taught growing up is that faith is really hard. it&#8217;s going to push you to your emotional and intellectual limits further than you think you can go. That it is normal. If you ever feel that then congratulations&#8211; you&#8217;re in company with Abraham Jeremiah and the Savior himself. Iit doesn&#8217;t mean there&#8217;s something wrong with you if you&#8217;re struggling in your faith. It doesn&#8217;t mean you have some kind of a disease or something. Struggling and striving to work through these things is normal. So that&#8217;s another thing. We have got to take away the shame of faith struggles. These are normal. It’s very normal to wrestle through things even for years. So you’re in good company. Faith Is Not Blind: I think you&#8217;re one of those people that gives company to those who need it.  I appreciate your example and you being willing to share your story with us. Thank you so much. Dan: You&#8217;re welcome. <li class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_0 et_pb_social_icon et_pb_social_network_link et-social-facebook'><a href='#' class='icon et_pb_with_border' title='Follow on Facebook' target="_blank"><span class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_name' aria-hidden='true' >Follow<li class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_1 et_pb_social_icon et_pb_social_network_link et-social-youtube'><a href='#' class='icon et_pb_with_border' title='Follow on Youtube' target="_blank"><span class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_name' aria-hidden='true' >Follow<li class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_2 et_pb_social_icon et_pb_social_network_link et-social-instagram'><a href='#' class='icon et_pb_with_border' title='Follow on Instagram' target="_blank"><span class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_name' aria-hidden='true' >Follow<li class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_3 et_pb_social_icon et_pb_social_network_link et-social-pinterest'><a href='#' class='icon et_pb_with_border' title='Follow on Pinterest' target="_blank"><span class='et_pb_social_media_follow_network_name' aria-hidden='true' >Follow The post Dan Ellsworth: Surviving a Faith Crisis and Learning About Redemption first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Tori: Coping with Racism in the Church: &#8220;Ye Are All One in Christ&#8221; As a biracial member of the church, unfortunately Tori has had to deal with ignorant questions and racist comments from other members of the church. With complete honesty Tori shares how painful these interactions have been, but she also shares how she has learned to be forgiving and patient because she wants to help others understand how it feels to be marginalized. Her willingness to share both her sacred and her challenging experiences will inspire you to be more open-minded, more loving, and to remember, as Tori quotes Paul as saying, “[Y]e are all one in Christ” (Galatians 3:28). FULL TEXT: Faith is Not Blind: We’re going to talk today about how difficult it can be to be convert to the church and to stay in the church and we’ll talk about some of the difficulties that come even when you&#8217;re relatively young. Thank you for being here with us, Tori. Tori: Thank you for having me. Faith is Not Blind: Would you just talk a little bit about your childhood and your first encounters with the church and how you found out about the church? Tori:  So my story is kind of a little crazy. Faith is Not Blind: And that&#8217;s why we have you here. Tori:  I don’t know if I&#8217;m considered a convert because t I was born into the church. So my mom and dad both raised me in it and my three other siblings. We went to church every Sunday. I would family home evening and my parents were very faithful and so I grew up only knowing the church and that was my life for the for my first nine years of my life. So up until I was I was part of a Mormon household. Faith is Not Blind: Then what happened after that? Tori: When I turned 9 that was when it starts to become like conversion story. I had kind of a testimony of Christ when I was nine but it was mainly just my parents’ testimony. When I turned ten-years-old my parents got divorced and that was when my mom moved out of my parents house. I lived with my mom and my brother stayed with my dad. My dad kept going to church but my mom stopped and because I live with my mom I stopped going to because I did what she did. Faith is Not Blind: What an interesting story. This is why I think I would label you as sort of a conqueror then. Because there&#8217;s this sort of interruption in your story&#8211;an interruption in the building of your faith. What does that look like? Especially to have so much consistency in the first part? I mean if you looked at the first part of your story you would just assume, well, okay there she goes. She&#8217;s on the path.  But to have this sudden Interruption as a nine-year-old. How did you perceive it at that time? Tori: There&#8217;s no way to really prepare a child for divorce, but there&#8217;s also really no way to prepare child to make such a shift in her life from believing “this is how you&#8217;re supposed to live” and then now “it is an option.” For me, it was really confusing because I didn&#8217;t know what was right anymore. I thought that the way that I grew up living was right,  but now I&#8217;m seeing that there&#8217;s a different way to live. So my thought was, “Okay it looks like it&#8217;s time to live a different way.” It was really confusing for me for a lot of years because what I now thought was living the gospel wasn&#8217;t mandatory any more&#8211;that it&#8217;s just an option and maybe it&#8217;s not even true. And that was my thought process for a long time. Faith is Not Blind: At what point was there a shift back to your beginnings with your gospel roots? Tori: This is kind of a long story, but I had turned 16-years-old and my uncle who lived in Utah had invited me up to stay with them for the summer and I was super against it at first because I didn&#8217;t really want to like spend my summer with a bunch of what I would call “Mormons.” And then going to church and just like going back to that lifestyle&#8211;I just was not interested. But they kept asking. Like, “Come visit us. It would be so fun.”  So I end up going up for the summer and I went to church again for the first time and at first it was super bizarre, super weird. I was in young womens and I had skipped the whole beginning of young women so it was weird&#8211;like I missed primary. Iit was like a big gap that I skipped. And I was being thrown in with these girls who super faithful. And they&#8217;re singing hymns I didn&#8217;t remember. Some of them came back to me, but I didn&#8217;t remember a lot of them. And I was taking Sacrament and I just remember being super overwhelmed by it. But over the course of time I started to realize that this was what true peace felt like. I&#8217;m not going to go  into detail about the things that occurred during the gap of when I didn&#8217;t go to church, but there was a lot of a lot of darkness that I experienced. And a lot of things I got into that really were very worldly and didn&#8217;t really bring me real happiness. And I was seeing for the first time what true happiness was. What it felt like was true joy. And that was like a turning point in my life when I realized that.  I started actually gained my own testimony and realize that this was this was the path I wanted to take. And even though it was going to be difficult, this was something that I wanted to do. So that was probably the turning point. To go further into it, I ended up coming home that summer and it was the summer before my senior year of high school. My uncle asked me if I wanted to spend my senior year in Utah and at first I was like, “Oh, I don&#8217;t want to leave my friends.” It was just super difficult to make new friends and go to a brand new High School and start going to church again like that like. If I moved to Utah that meant that  I have to stay on that path. So I went home to San Diego and it was a few days before my senior year was starting and I just remember sitting in my room and it was late at night and my mom had left to work that night to work as a bartender. A I was just sitting in there and I was thinking, “I have to make a decision fast.” And it was the first time that I had been alone in a while because in Utah I was around my cousins and my aunt and uncle. So I was alone for the first time and I was really having time to really be introspective and really think. I just remember thinking to myself&#8211;just feeling so sad because I couldn&#8217;t figure out what I wanted. I I knew that I couldn&#8217;t sit on the fence. I knew I had to choose the gospel or the world and there was no other way. I couldn&#8217;t sit on the fence for the rest of my life. So I was just sitting in my room and I just remember praying and just crying and trying to figure out what path I wanted to take. And I said a prayer that night. I was like, “Heavenly Father, I I don&#8217;t know what I do, but all I know is I just don&#8217;t want to be alone right now and I just I just need someone.” And I just went to bed that night. I don&#8217;t really talk much because it was such a sacred experience. But this was really the turning point of my testimony. But I was laying down and it was like 12 in the morning and I fell asleep. I remember waking up and I heard dishes clicking and banging in my kitchen and I was like, “that’s odd.” It was like 2 in the morning and I was like “Why is my mom home from work what is she doing?”  I just closed my eyes and went back to sleep and I remember waking up again because I could see my door kind of creaking open. And I looked out of the corner of my eye and my eyes were kind of like fuzzy because I&#8217;ve been crying all night so I couldn’t really see that well. So I close my eyes and just go back to sleep and she just kissed my forehead and just gave me a hug and the feeling that came to me was just warm. Because that was something my mom would do for me when I was really little when I would go to sleep. She would kiss my forehead and give me a hug. She didn&#8217;t do often and hadn’t done that in years her doing that to me meant everything because she hadn&#8217;t done it in so long. And that was exactly what I had asked for. I went back to sleep and I was just so happy. I remember waking up at 7 in the morning and I got up and I ran to my mom&#8217;s room to go thank her for doing that and she wasn&#8217;t home. So I called her and I was like, “Hey, did you go get breakfast? Where did you go?” And she was like, “I spent the night at my friend&#8217;s house last night.” And I was like, “What? You can come home. And  she was like, “No, I didn&#8217;t come home. Are you okay?” And I was like, “Yeah, I&#8217;m okay. I just thought you were here.” So I hung up the phone and I sat in my room and I just couldn&#8217;t figure out what happened. But I thought about it and I prayed about it and I realized. My great-grandmother died when I was 9-year- old and my parents were about to divorce and it was a really hard time for all of us. She loved to cook and she was always in the kitchen. And then I remembered the feelings that I got when I was little and she would hug me and she would kiss me. And I sat down and I thought about it and I realized that Heavenly Father had heard me. It was just such a turning point in my life because I knew right then that it didn&#8217;t matter how far I had gone off the path. Heavenly Father was there the whole time and I think the lesson that I learned from that was it doesn&#8217;t matter how far you sink&#8211;that you can always reach your hand out and I know it.  A lot of people don’t have experiences like that, but I talked to Mom about it and she thinks it was my great-grandmother too. But I know that He really does listen and He sends you people. After that experience I called my aunt and uncle and I said, “I want to be in Utah and I want to spend my senior year there.” And that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m here. It was that experience that got me to Idaho and really grew my testimony. Faith is Not Blind: Wow. What an amazing experience, especially for you to feel that connection not just to God but to your family. Especially realizing you were going to have to leave your mom behind in some ways, to be able to move forward. As you went to Utah it would be nice to just assume that everything is just going to be wonderful, especially with that experience in your heart to take with you to comfort you. After that time what kind of difficulties did you encounter that were unexpected that tested this resolve? Like you said, “it&#8217;s going to be all one way or all the other.”  Were there ways that made it difficult to continue that path even with that sacred experience? Tori: For sure. There was a thing that people told me. They were like, “Once you start to live right, that&#8217;s when the devil really tries to pull you back.” And living in Utah was probably one of the toughest experiences of my life because I really had to face a lot of things that I didn&#8217;t think I would have to. In San Diego there was a lot of culture&#8211;so much culture. And so I had experienced as a kid  some people saying, “Your hair is so curly” or things like that, but I never heard anything that was super racist or anything. But moving to Utah&#8211;that&#8217;s when it was really a culture shock for me and I realized that I do stand out here. And I now have to explain to people “what I am” and “what my parents are” and why my family&#8217;s white and why I&#8217;m black. It was definitely a very hard transition for me having people come to me like, “Sorry, but what are you?” or “Can I touch your hair?” You know, things like that. I had to really overcome things in Utah that really did test my faith. And there were times when I thought to myself, “Is this even worth it? Does God not even really love me because I&#8217;m different?” And there were times when I look at myself and I think, “Wow. I am not happy in my skin.”  And I think that&#8217;s one of my biggest tests of my faith living in Utah. Faith is Not Blind: How did you work through that? Because people might want to assume members of the church will be compassionate, that they&#8217;ll be open-minded, that they won’t ask questions that show ignorance. How did you work through that instead of just going back to California? Tori: It wasn&#8217;t easy for sure. I I still struggle with it today. But the one thing that really just got me through it was going back to the scriptures. I think it&#8217;s Galatians 3 verse 28, but it basically says “There is neither Jew nor Gentile. You are  all one in Christ.” I remember I was in seminary and my teacher read that verse and I just I just like froze. Because it really doesn&#8217;t matter your race or what kind of hair you have or even what you believe. You&#8217;re all one in Christ. And that was what got me through. It didn&#8217;t matter what friends were saying about me or what people in church were saying or even my family said. What mattered was that to Christ I matter to him. And it didn&#8217;t matter the color of my skin. Faith is Not Blind: I think that it&#8217;s beautiful to be able to remember that. Maybe sometimes it&#8217;s harder not to be angry. How did you avoid being angry or blaming those people. How are you able to separate that out?  Sometimes meeting people in the church who aren&#8217;t like Him&#8211;how are you able to separate it so that you didn&#8217;t become angry at them and didn&#8217;t become angry at God? Tori: That&#8217;s definitely something that I really did struggle with coming back to church because I had already questions. I thought if this is true, the people should be very accepting as well. And I learned that people aren&#8217;t perfect and no matter where you go you&#8217;re never going to find perfect people. And I just realized that people are born in different areas and grow up thinking differently, but you just have to love everyone. And getting angry solves absolutely nothing. I think about Martin Luther King and you know how he saw things very peacefully. And I definitely look up to him so much because he he took so much hate and he told his people that we need to be peaceful and don&#8217;t resort to violence. I think that nothing would ever get solved if I was to get angry or resentful and hold hate towards people that said things about me. I wouldn&#8217;t progress and I wouldn&#8217;t be happy and even though it’s still something that I do struggle with, I just think about what really matters is what Christ thinks of me. What some people just don&#8217;t know is that they&#8217;re being ignorant. Some people don&#8217;t know that they&#8217;re being hurtful. And being patient with them and explaining to them, “This is what I am&#8211;I&#8217;m a daughter of God just like you. A daughter or son of God like you and he loves all of us and we can’t judge anyone because of differences.” Faith is Not Blind: You&#8217;re definitely talking about the ideal. I&#8217;m glad that you&#8217;re willing to say it&#8217;s work and it&#8217;s really hard. And maybe every day it isn&#8217;t easy to say those things to yourself.  Just in case there are people who haven&#8217;t had experiences with this or maybe don&#8217;t know what it&#8217;s like to be the recipient of racist comments or hurtful comments, would you just talk about how those comments make you feel so that maybe we can prevent people from making comments like that? Tori: One comment that really hurts is I was told because I&#8217;m half-black&#8211;my dad&#8217;s black and my mom&#8217;s white&#8211;that I&#8217;m breaking a curse because I am half white. The person who said it was not trying to be hateful and they weren&#8217;t trying to make me feel bad day. They really just thought that they were speaking “facts” and that they were happy for me that I was breaking this curse. And it&#8217;s ridiculous when you think about it, but this was really their mindset. And o me it just pierced a hole in my heart to think that my skin is a curse and not a blessing. So I just probably want to say that it hurts to feel like you have to defend your skin.  I think some people don&#8217;t really know what that&#8217;s like to feel like especially in America or in the church&#8211;having to constantly defend your skin color. I think interracial marriage was only legalized a little 50 years ago, so it&#8217;s still really new, So not many people that are biracial but we exist and we&#8217;re still trying to find a place in this world. Just because I&#8217;m half white doesn&#8217;t mean that I don’t still feel the baggage that my ancestors felt when they were in the fields. It definitely does hurt. But I think that just educating people and really just letting them know that our skin is not a curse, that I take a lot of pride in who I am. And even though words do hurt, I&#8217;m going to take that and I&#8217;m just going to keep pressing forward. I think that&#8217;s why people&#8211;especially in the church&#8211;people of color should try to just remember that it doesn&#8217;t matter what anyone else says. It matters what God thinks of you and he loves you doesn&#8217;t matter what your race is. Just educate people and be a walking example of Christ and that&#8217;s the most important thing you can do. Faith is Not Blind: I do&#8211;like we said in the beginning&#8211; think of you as a convert convert to Christ and especially when you&#8217;ve encountered difficult situations. Some people might wonder with the things that you have experienced why you would choose to stay in this church? What keeps you here? Tori: That’s a really good question. I have struggled with that my entire life and even still being at BYU-Idaho. They say you have to live in the darkness to really appreciate the light and I spent so much of my life in the dark and there are still times that I do spend it in the dark. And I have felt what joy is even if it&#8217;s just for a second. And I know that&#8217;s what I want. And I know the only place to find it is in the church.  And despite the racist comments or questions and all the opposition I faced, the joy that I feel in his church outweighs all of it. And the love I feel for Christ just going to church and taking Sacrament and praying and reading scriptures and just feeling the blessings that come from being faithful outweigh all of the darkness. So that&#8217;s what kept me.  And also just seeing how being an example to my siblings and my mom and my dad, how it blesses their lives as well. And knowing that I&#8217;m not just doing this for myself, but I&#8217;m doing it for my future husband and my future kids and that there are so many people that are affected by the choices I make right now. That&#8217;s what keeps me. And just being so happy here and knowing that there&#8217;s so much good to come and so much light that I can feel by being in the church. That&#8217;s what keeps me in the church. Faith is Not Blind: I think of your family line and you&#8217;re just a blessing to everybody. I mean, you&#8217;re spreading the blessings. That’s what you&#8217;re doing. You&#8217;re spreading the blessings of your heritage and the beauty of your heritage. There&#8217;s so much beauty in that. Thank you for sharing it and for passing it on and for educating people with joy. Thank you so much, Tori. Thank you. The post Tori: Coping with Racism in the Church: “Ye Are All One in Christ” first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Geoff: A Convert&#8217;s Balance of Faith and Analysis Because he was a convert who found his faith as a young adult who valued logic, Geoff deals with complexity through nuanced thinking. Rather than looking at his questions through a black and white lens, Geoff shares how his newfound relationship with God shaped not only the way he seeks answers but the way he appreciates the pursuit for answers itself. The post Geoff: A Convert’s Balance of Faith and Analysis first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Connie: Learning to Have Charity for Our Gay Daughter: Ricks Family Part II With admirable honesty and candor, Connie shares her experience about learning her daughter was gay and gives us the opportunity to witness how she allowed the Savior to change her heart when she stopped insisting that her daughter needed to change. in Fai Further Reading in Faith is Not Blind: “God has always interacted with his children through the crucible of mortal complexities. In that crucible, it is always our to decide whether we will trust Him.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 15, “The Spirit of the Army,” p. 117) The post Connie: Learning to Have Charity for Our Gay Daughter: Ricks Family Part II first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Loretta (Simbabwe): Wie eine Neubekehrte für sich gelernt hat, den Priestertumsbann einzuordnen &nbsp; Loretta (Simbabwe): Wie eine Neubekehrte für sich gelernt hat, den Priestertumsbann einzuordnen by Faith is Not Blind http://faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/FINBLORETTA_1.mp3 Glaube ist nicht blind: Ich freue mich wirklich, mit Loretta sprechen zu können. Sie hat eine besondere, wichtige Geschichte. Zum Beginn bitte ich Sie, sich vorzustellen. Erzählen Sie uns, woher Sie kommen und welchen Hintergrund Sie haben. Loretta: Ursprünglich komme ich aus Simbabwe. Ich wuchs in einer kleinen Familie auf. Sie bestand nur aus mir und meiner älteren Schwester, erzogen von einer alleinstehenden Mutter. Wir waren nicht sehr religiös. Der Rest der Familie war es, aber meiner Mutter war es wichtig, dass wir für alles mögliche offen waren, um zu lernen. Wir gingen nicht zur Kirche, aber meine Mutter vermittelte uns die üblichen moralischen Werte: gut zu anderen sein, nicht stehlen, nichts Böses tun, solche Sachen. Damit wuchs ich also auf. Wenn ich aber meine Großmutter und alle anderen in der Familie besuchte, dann kam ein wenig Religion in mein Leben. Denn die gingen sonntags immer in die Kirche. Wenn ich also bei dem Teil der Familie war, ging ich zur Kirche. Aber bei mir zuhause gab es das nicht. So bin ich aufgewachsen. Glaube ist nicht blind: Wie haben Sie die Kirche Jesu Christi der Heiligen der Letzten Tage gefunden? Loretta: Ich war bei meiner Schwester und ihrem Mann. Sie lebten damals in Südafrika, weil er dort arbeitete. Und wir waren dabei, die Nachwirkungen des Todes meiner Mutter zu verarbeiten. Ich hatte mehr damit zu kämpfen als meine Schwester. Meine Schwester hatte das schon so gut wie hinter sich gelassen, doch ich hielt noch daran fest und deshalb riet sie mir, bei einer Verwandten aus der Familie ihres Mannes zu wohnen, die in Südafrika lebte. Diese Frau lebte in einer anderen Stadt. Da sie Kinder in meinem Alter hatte, wünschte meine Schwester für mich, Teil dieser Familie zu sein; denn in ihrem Haus gab es nur sie und ihren Mann—es gab da nicht viel für mich. Also besuchte ich diese Frau. Das war etwa ein Jahr nach dem Tod meiner Mutter und ich hatte nichts zu tun. Ich hatte keinen Job, ich ging nicht zur Schule. Ich trauerte einfach. Ich wollte mit nichts und niemandem etwas zu tun haben. Als ich dann dort war, bekam ich das Gefühl, dass ich mir eine Arbeit suchen sollte. Ich sollte mir einfach eine Arbeit suchen. Ich hatte überhaupt keine Papiere, um mich zu bewerben, doch wachte ich eines Morgens auf und dachte: „Okay, ich werde mir eine Arbeit suchen“. Ich hatte keine Ahnung, wo ich suchen sollte, also ging ich einfach die Straße entlang, und das ist gar nicht typisch für mich. Ich hatte Jeans an und ein T-Shirt und ging einfach umher und fragte, ob hier Leute eingestellt würden. Da dies ein Ort an der Küste war, gab es, wie in vielen Touristenorten, Restaurants und so was, und deshalb dachte ich mir, ich solle mal versuchen, einen Job als Serviererin zu finden. Das sollte einfacher und vermutlich nicht so anstrengend sein. Und ich erinnere mich daran, dass bei einem Restaurant ein Schild aushing, dass Personal gesucht wird. Also ging ich hinein und fragte den Manager, ob man mich einstellen würde. Und er sagte: „Ach, das tut mir leid. Das Schild hängt noch da, aber wir haben schon alle eingestellt, die wir brauchen. Lassen Sie einfach Ihre Bewerbungsunterlagen hier, damit wir Kontakt mit Ihnen aufnehmen können.“ Ich hatte aber keine Unterlagen, nicht einmal eine Handtasche. Also sagte ich einfach: „Nein, ist schon in Ordnung. Ich bewerbe mich wieder, wenn Sie wieder Leute suchen.“ Und ich erinnere mich daran, als ich das Gebäude verließ, dass ich wieder das Gefühl bekam: „Du musst zurückgehen und um den Arbeitsplatz bitten.“ Das war sehr eindeutig und ich wusste damals nicht, was das war, und dachte, es sei einfach ein penetrantes Gefühl. Warum soll ich zurückgehen, wenn ich das gar nicht will? Aber ich ging zurück und sagte dem Mann, ich kann wirklich hart arbeiten, habe aber nichts vorbereitet. „Ich habe keine Bewerbungsunterlagen für Sie, doch wenn Sie mich einstellen, kann ich mich beweisen.“ Er war skeptisch, denn er dachte wohl: „Du willst Arbeit, bist aber nicht so darauf vorbereitet, wie jeder das tun würde.“ Und dann sagt er: „Okay. Ich stelle Sie für die Abendschicht ein.“ Und das ist die geschäftigste Zeit für jenes Restaurant, weil es in Südafrika beliebt ist.„Und wenn Sie gut arbeiten, behalten wir Sie; doch wenn nicht, können Sie mir nicht vorwerfen, ich hätte es nicht versucht.“ Und dann erinnere ich mich daran, dass ich an dem Tag mit dem Gedanken nach Hause gegangen bin: „Okay, da muss ich mich drauf vorbereiten.“ Normalerweise wird eine Serviererin in der Küche angelernt und überall sonst, bevor man im Gästebereich arbeitet. Bei mir war das nicht so. Er sagte mir nur, ich solle am Morgen kommen, um die Speisekarte kennenzulernen und dann am Abend um zu arbeiten. Also ging ich am Morgen dorthin. Dann begann ich am Abend, dort zu arbeiten. Es war Donnerstagabend und das ist für das Restaurant ein geschäftiger Abend. Dort gibt es von 18-21 Uhr Pizza satt. Man kommt einfach hin, bestellt Pizza und kann unbegrenzt nachbestellen, bis die Zeit um ist. Und deshalb kommt jeder dahin. Es ist der geschäftigste Abend und natürlich war ich nervös. Ich erinnere mich daran, wie ich mit meinen Kollegen an der Tür gewartet und die Gäste bei ihrer Ankunft begrüßt habe. Ich dachte bei mir, dies sei vielleicht keine so gute Idee, weil ich ja gar nichts weiß. Ich kenne mich mit der Speisekarte nicht aus. Was, falls sie keine Pizza wollen, sondern was anderes? Und dann kann ich mich noch daran erinnern, acht Leute aus ihren Autos aussteigen zu sehen, alle in weißem Hemd und schwarzer Hose. Und ich dachte, das ist sehr ungewöhnlich. Alle sahen sich sehr ähnlich und hatten schwarze Namensschilder; und ich sagte zu meiner Kollegin: „Das wird ein großer Tisch. Da sie alle gleich angezogen sind, müssen sie von irgendeiner Firma kommen, oder?“ Daraufhin schaute sie mich an und sagte: „Nein. Die willst du nicht bedienen.“ Und alle sagten: „Die Mormonen kommen“ und alle verschwanden. Also war ich die einzige an der Tür, denn a) wollte ich meinen Chef beeindrucken und b) musste ich sie bedienen und konnte gar nicht verstehen, warum alle verschwunden waren. Als ich sie durch die Tür kommen sah, hatte ich eine—ich will es nicht Vision nennen—aber irgendetwas erinnerte mich an meine Jugend in Simbabwe. Da hatte ich Menschen gesehen, die so angezogen waren, und daran musste ich denken, als ich an der Tür stand. Sie kamen mir irgendwie bekannt vor, als sie auf mich zu kamen und mich begrüßten. Ich wies ihnen ihren Platz zu und ging, um die Speisekarten für sie zu holen, und als ich wieder auf dem Weg zu ihnen war, kam wieder dieses Gefühl: „Frage sie, was sie machen.“ Und ich dachte:„Das werde ich nicht tun. Ich werde ihnen einfach die Speisekarte geben.“ Und das Gefühl war so stark, dass ich nichts anderes sagen konnte, als sie zu fragen, was sie tun. Ich kam also an ihren Tisch und fühlte mich ein bisschen überwältigt und sagte: „Okay, Leute. Hier sind die Speisekarten. Aber was für eine Arbeit tun Sie? Sie sehen alle gleich gekleidet aus.“ Auch eine ältere Frau war dabei—wohl Teil eines älteren Missionarsehepaares. „O ja, wir sind Missionare der Kirche Jesu Christi der Heiligen der Letzten Tage. Wir sind nur zum Essen hier. Wollen Sie wissen, was wir tun?“ „Nein, nein, ich habe nur gefragt“, und dann eilte ich weg. Doch dann erzählten sie mir den ganzen Abend lang alles, was sie so tun. Sie waren bis ins Detail  genau und erzählten mir alles. Und ich hörte ihnen zu und lächelte, denn ich wurde von meinem Chef beobachtet und wollte ihn beeindrucken. Ich gab ihnen buchstäblich meine ungeteilte Aufmerksamkeit. Ich hörte zu und brachte ihnen Gläser und Wasser oder ähnliches und hörte ihnen dann einige Minuten lang bei allem zu, was sie mir mitteilten. Aber alles, was sie mir erzählten, hörte sich zu gut an, um wahr zu sein. Ich dachte: „So was gibt’s nicht. Es ist nicht normal, dass ein 14-jähriger Junge beten geht und dann sowas passiert.“ Das ist eine gute Geschichte, aber ich glaube sie nicht. Und zu der Zeit in meinem Leben hatte ich aufgrund des Todes meiner Mutter viele Fragen an Gott. Ich fragte ihn: „Warum musste sie sterben? Warum muss ich alleine aufwachsen? Sie war eine gute Frau; das hatte sie nicht verdient.“ Ich hatte all diese Fragen, wie „Werde ich sie je wiedersehen?“ Und diese Missionare sprachen nichts davon an. Deshalb dachte ich mir: „Wenn sie von einer Kirche kommen, sollten sie die Antwort auf dies alles haben, aber ich werde sie nicht fragen. Ich werde sie nur bedienen und dann können sie ihres Weges gehen.“ Bevor sie an dem Abend weggingen, gab mir einer der Elders, der mich später auch belehrte, sein Zeugnis über den Plan der Erlösung; und das hatte nichts mit dem zu tun, worüber wir vorher gesprochen hatten. Sie hatten mir nur von der Wiederherstellung und der Bibel und dieser Geschichte erzählt. Aber er hatte das Gefühl, mir sein Zeugnis über den Plan der Erlösung geben zu sollen. Und sie hinterließen ihre Telefonnummer auf der Rechnung. Mir gefiel, was er gesagt hatte, und ich wollte mehr darüber erfahren. Also rief ich sie nach meiner Schicht an. Das war so gegen Mitternacht. Ich wusste nicht, dass man sie zu der Zeit nicht anrufen konnte. Ich erinnere mich daran, dass ich sie nach meiner Heimkehr angerufen habe: „Ich möchte mehr über das wissen, was Sie gesagt haben. Nicht alles andere, das Sie auch erwähnten, aber hierüber.“ Man konnte erkennen, dass sie sich freuten, auch wenn ihre Stimme schläfrig klang.Ich habe danach übrigens auch den Job bekommen. Glaube ist nicht blind: Was von allem, was die Missionare Sie lehrten, half Ihnen am meisten zu erkennen, dass Sie sich taufen lassen sollten? Was half Ihnen, sich dafür zu entscheiden? Loretta: Ich glaube, es waren zwei Dinge. Ich wollte mich schon immer ganz und gar in Religion vertiefen, wie ich das erlebt hatte, als ich mit meiner Großmutter zur Kirche ging. Mir gefielen alle ihre Belehrungen, aber dennoch mochte ich es nicht, weil alle in der Familie außer uns Methodisten waren. Sie lehrten wunderbare Wahrheiten, aber ich hatte das Gefühl, Gott sei ein unfassbares Wesen. Als ob man nicht mit ihm sprechen konnte. Ich konnte mit ihm nicht einfach über meine Gefühle sprechen. Es gab also diese Distanz, doch ich wünschte mir, wenn überhaupt, dann eine persönliche Beziehung zu jenem Wesen, das ich noch nicht kannte. Und zweitens gab meine Mutter mir vor ihrem Tod einen wichtigen Rat. Ich weiß nicht, ob sie wusste, dass sie gehen würde. Ich weiß es nicht, aber sie sprach mit mir irgendwie über das Leben. Sie sagte: „Ich möchte, dass du dir eine gute Bildung aneignest. Ich möchte, dass du ein guter Mensch bleibst.“ Deshalb dachte ich, Religion könnte mir helfen. Ich war immer ein gutes Kind gewesen, dachte aber, Religion würde mir helfen, in diesen Werten beständiger zu sein. Als die Missionare also über einen 14-jährigen Jungen sprachen, der zu so etwas so sehr verpflichtet war, dachte ich: „Ich bin älter als Joseph Smith. Das kann ich auch.“ Also betete ich oder fing an zu beten und lernte, wie man betet, und lernte, wie man mit Gott spricht. Das half mir, daran zu glauben. Und auch der Plan der Erlösung. Ich glaube, dadurch wurde alles gefestigt. Als mir die Missionare die erste Lektion gaben, ging es nicht um die Wiederherstellung. Ich hatte ihnen nichts erzählt. Ich erzählte es ihnen erst, nachdem ich getauft war. Sie hatten davon keine Ahnung, fühlten aber: „Wir müssen mit ihr über den Plan der Erlösung sprechen.“ So begannen sie damit und das zog mich wirklich an, denn es ergab Sinn, ja, dass Menschen sterben, aber dass wir sie dennoch wiedersehen können. Es ist nicht wirklich das Ende. Mir gefällt der Gedanke, dass unser Leben hier nicht vergeblich ist. Wir können wieder miteinander vereint sein und das war das Tüpfelchen auf dem i. Glaube ist nicht blind: Es ist für mich bemerkenswert, dass Sie das Gefühl hatten, eine uneingeschränkte, ewige Verpflichtung zu Gott in derselben Weise haben zu wollen, wie Sie das bei Joseph Smith spürten, damit Sie auf ewig mit Ihrer Mutter verbunden sein konnten, und da schließt sich der Kreis sehr schön. Es ist für mich auch bemerkenswert, dass die Vorstellung, sich ganz zu verpflichten und sich völlig in eine religiöse Beziehung zu Gott zu vertiefen, zu Ihrer eigenen Mission führte. Beschreiben Sie uns, wie Sie zu der Entscheidung kamen, auf Mission zu gehen, und wohin Sie dann auf Mission gingen. Loretta: Ich glaube, das war nach meiner Taufe, denn ich wurde schnell, nach ungefähr zwei Wochen, getauft. Ja, ich brauchte nicht lange. Ich wusste, dass es wahr ist. Doch sagten die Missionare: „Okay, wir müssen Ihnen noch etwas mehr erklären; bitte nicht so schnell.“ Und während sie mich belehrten, fragte ich sie: „Wissen das alle? Denn ich habe ja nichts davon gewusst. Gibt es Menschen auf der ganzen Welt, die dasselbe lehren? Es ist nicht allgemein bekannt, denn ich habe ja nichts davon gewusst. Es ist nicht so einfach, wie wenn man eine Zeitung kauft. Warum wird das nicht überall verkündet? Ich möchte Ihnen helfen, das zu verkünden.“ Ich fragte die Missionare nach ihrem Programm und wie ich das auch tun könne. Tun es nur die Männer? Kann ich das auch tun? Nach meiner Taufe begann ich, Missionsarbeit zu verstehen. Ich ging mit ihnen zu Belehrungen und lernte, wie man Menschen hilft; und mir gefiel der Gedanke, mich mit jemandem zu treffen, der keine Vorstellung von dem allen hat oder wenn er eine Vorstellung hat, nicht das große Bild sieht. Und dann die Änderung zu sehen—das faszinierte mich. Ich ging mit ihnen zu Belehrungen. Ich wollte das tun, weil es sich gut anfühlte, und deshalb entschied ich mich, auf Mission zu gehen. Alle aus meiner Familie waren überrascht und schockiert. Was machst du da? Denn ich hatte mich nie zu etwas wirklich verpflichtet, und nach dem Tod meiner Mutter interessierte mich eigentlich nicht mehr viel. Deshalb beunruhigte sie die Tatsache, dass ich mich jetzt für etwas einsetzte. „Vielleicht bist du unvernünftig oder machst gerade den Trauerprozess durch. Du musst dich nicht für irgendwas entscheiden.“ Doch ich sagte ihnen: „Ich möchte das tun und ich werde es tun—mit oder ohne eure Hilfe.“ Und ihre Reaktion war: „Also, du hörst uns einfach nicht zu. Deine Mutter ist nicht hier und deshalb meinst du, du kannst tun, was immer du willst. Da machen wir nicht mit. Wir werden dich in keiner Weise unterstützen.“Und ich sagte: „Okay. In Ordnung.“ Und so begann ich einfach zu sparen und arbeitete. Ich arbeitete weiter als Serviererin. Ich fand einen weiteren Job in der Nähe in einem Hotel und das half. Ich hatte eine gute Gemeinde und dann ging ich, glaube ich, zwei Jahre nachdem ich mich der Kirche angeschlossen hatte, auf Mission. Ich diente in England in der Leeds Mission. Und ich wollte, dass jeder erfährt, was ich erfahren hatte. Genau das wollte ich tun. Glaube ist nicht blind: Eine wunderbare Geschichte. Und wie bei den meisten wunderbaren Geschichten möchte man, dass der Held einen einfachen Weg hat und alles einfach schafft. Und es scheint mir bemerkenswert, dass Sie diese Konflikte erlebt und sie durchgearbeitet haben, weil Sie sich sicher waren, dass es wahr ist. Gab es auf Ihrer Mission eine Zeit, in der Sie sich nicht so sicher waren? Loretta: Ja. Denn ich hatte das Gefühl, aus der Laune des Augenblicks gegangen zu sein, als ob ich auf einem fliegenden Teppich war, was der Geist meines Erachtens manchmal bei uns bewirken kann, und das ist sehr schön, kann aber nicht von Dauer sein. Und sollte es wahrscheinlich auch nicht. Ich erinnere mich daran, dass ich beim Unterricht durch die Elders Interesse an Kirchengeschichte hatte; da es aber so viel zu lernen gab, konnte ich nicht alles anschauen. Ich erinnere mich an eine Begebenheit zu Beginn meiner Mission. Ich war mit meiner Trainerin unterwegs und wir sprachen mit Leuten auf der Straße und da kam dieser Typ und sprach mit uns und wir setzten uns eine Zeit lang mit ihm hin und er sagte: „Gut. Ich habe eine Frage für Sie, Sisters.“ Ich: „Was denn?“, und dann sagte er—und dabei schaute er mich an: „Ich habe eine Frage für Sie. Sister, kommen Sie her.“ Und dann sagte er: „Wie können Sie von all dem überzeugt und dem so verpflichtet sein, was Sie mir mitteilen und mir sagen und doch wissen, dass diese Kirche Menschen, die so aussehen wie Sie und ich, nicht mag?“ „Was meint er eigentlich?“ Dann begann er, mir davon zu erzählen, dass Farbige nicht das Priestertum erhalten hatten, und das wusste ich damals nicht. Also hörte ich ihm zu, dachte aber bei mir: „Ich verstehe nicht, wovon er redet. Das ist Unsinn.“ Doch es ging mir nicht mehr aus dem Sinn. Ich dachte immer wieder darüber nach; ich vermute, dass ich anfing, zwei und zwei zusammenzuzählen. Also, offensichtlich liebt Gott mich, also sollte jeder alles haben. Also rief ich am nächsten Tag meinen Missionspräsidenten an und erzählte ihm, womit ich konfrontiert worden war und dass ich nicht wusste, wie ich damit umgehen sollte; ich brauchte Antworten. Glaube ist nicht blind: Wie sah es in Ihnen aus? So etwas zu entdecken, muss wie eine Bombe sein. Hatten Sie das Gefühl, man habe Ihnen diese Information bewusst vorenthalten? Loretta: Mein erster Gedanke war: Man hat mich einfach nicht über alles belehrt, obwohl ich alles kennenlernen wollte. Und so dachte ich, man hätte mir einfach nicht alles gesagt. Gleichzeitig kam mir der Gedanke in den Sinn, da ich mich ja schon mit Kirchengeschichte beschäftigte: „Wie konnte ich das übersehen? Oder bin ich noch nicht so weit gekommen?“ Und so dachte ich: „Das ist alles sehr belastend und ich möchte wissen, wie ich damit umgehen soll.“ Und deshalb rief ich wohl meinen Missionspräsidenten an. Glaube ist nicht blind: Ein bemerkenswerter Ansatz, zumindest den Versuch zu machen, dieser Neuigkeit mit einem Vertrauensvorschuss zu begegnen. Was hat Ihr Missionspräsident Ihnen gesagt? Loretta:Er sagte: „Wenn Sie möchten, können Sie das erforschen.“ Er schlug mir vor, an meinem P-Day auf lds.orgzu gehen, falls ich das wollte, oder mich damit nach meiner Heimkehr zu befassen. Glaube ist nicht blind: Hat er Ihnen deutlich gemacht, dass es Information darüber gibt? Ich finde es bemerkenswert, dass er Ihnen empfohlen hat, das zu erforschen. Loretta: Er sagte: „Nichts davon wird geheim gehalten.“ Weil ich ihm gesagt hatte, dass ich nicht begreifen konnte, wieso ich davon noch nie gehört hatte. Aber jemand auf der Straße wusste davon. Und er sagte zu mir: „Es gibt vieles aus der Kirchengeschichte, das von Führern der Kirche zusammengetragen worden ist, was Sie online finden können. Und hier kann man es finden. Sie mögen das noch nicht entdeckt haben, aber es ist da und Sie können das gerne durcharbeiten. Dabei werden Sie lernen, wie Sie anderen Menschen helfen können, denen Sie auf Ihrer Mission begegnen.“ Danach entschied ich mich, darüber zu beten; denn ich habe für mich ein bestimmtes Muster, wie ich mit so etwas umgehe. Zunächst gehe ich zu einem Führer oder einem Bischof. Damals war es ja der Missionspräsident. Und dann bete ich darüber und entscheide mich. Als ich darüber betete, war die Antwort: „Du brauchst Dich im Moment nicht damit beschäftigen. Du kannst Dich nach deiner Heimkehr damit befassen. Es wird für Dich kein Problem mehr sein.“ Glaube ist nicht blind: Wie haben Sie diese Antwort erhalten, wo Sie doch so verwirrt waren? Ich glaube, dass Verwirrung oder ein Missverständnis oder irgendwelche negativen Gefühle uns davon abhalten, mit Gott zu sprechen. Ihr persönliches Muster finde ich interessant, weil man es immer wieder bei Ihrer ganzen Bekehrungsgeschichte erkennen kann—diese Verbindung zu Gott. Wie konnten Sie eine offene Verbindung mit Gott haben, so dass Sie ihn bitten und auch eine Antwort erhalten konnten, obwohl Sie vielleicht einige negative Gefühle hatten—was unter solchen Umständen verständlich gewesen wäre—aber wie haben Sie diese Antwort von ihm erhalten? Loretta: Nachdem ich Mitglied der Kirche geworden war, hat mich die Generalkonferenz fasziniert. Ich begann schon vor meiner Mitgliedschaft, alle Ansprachen der Generalkonferenzen zu lesen. Ich wurde 2010 getauft und begann in den Siebzigerjahren. Von da an las ich jede Generalkonferenz. Und weil die Generalkonferenz mich so faszinierte, konnte ich aus etlichen Ansprachen lernen, mit dieser Frage umzugehen. Ich erinnere mich an eine Ansprache, ich glaube von Präsident Boyd K. Packer, und ich hatte die Eingebung, diese Ansprache zu lesen. Darin wurde eine Schriftstelle aus dem Ersten Nephi zitiert. Und Nephi wurde von einem Engel gefragt: „Kennst du die Herablassung Gottes?“, und er sagte: „Ich kenne nicht die Bedeutung von allem, aber ich weiß, dass Gott seine Kinder liebt.“ Und ich befand mich genau an diesem Punkt, wo ich nicht die Bedeutung von allem wusste, aber bedeutete das, dass Gott mich nicht liebt? Nein, er liebt mich; und deshalb war diese Schriftstelle wohl das, was ich in diesem Moment brauchte; und das war meine Antwort: Ich werde nicht für jeden Menschen, dem ich auf meiner Mission begegne, Antworten haben. Ich werde mit Fragen konfrontiert werden. Vielleicht habe ich Antworten, aber vielleicht auch nicht. Aber was diese Menschen wissen müssen ist, dass Gott sie liebt—unabhängig von jedweder Frage, die sie haben mögen. Und so ging ich dann auch vor. Glaube ist nicht blind: So haben Sie also diese Ansprache auf Mission gelesen und danach gespürt, dass Gottes Liebe das Wichtigste ist, und das fühlen Sie auch jetzt noch. Wie ging es dann mit Ihrer Mission weiter? Gab es andere, ähnliche Hindernisse oder half Ihnen das für den Rest Ihrer Mission? Loretta: Es half mir auf meiner Mission. Zunächst hatte ich nicht verstanden, weshalb ich nach England berufen worden war. Das ergab für mich keinen Sinn, weil ich ja nach Afrika wollte. Aber aus irgendeinem Grund fühlten sich während meiner Zeit in England alle Farbigen zu mir hingezogen. Ich musste nicht aktiv Menschen suchen. Sie sahen mich einfach mit meinem Namensschild die Straße entlanggehen und sagten: „Ich muss mit ihr sprechen.“ Immer sagten sie zu mir: „Wir wussten nicht, dass es in dieser Kirche Farbige gibt.“ Also: „Woher stammen Sie? Wer sind Sie? Woher kommen Sie?“ Und dann erzählte ich ihnen, dass es da, wo ich herkam, so viele Mitglieder gab. Ich erinnere mich an diesen Typ aus der Gemeinde—er kam aus dem Kongo—und sie waren weniger aktiv. Und dann gab es da noch eine andere Familie—keine Mitglieder—wir klopften einfach bei ihnen an. Alle diese Leute fragten mich und waren überrascht, zum einen, weil sie von dieser Kirche gehört hatten, aber nicht wussten, dass es dort für sie einen Platz gab. Und ich war der eine Beweis für sie, dass es dort für uns einen Platz gibt. Denn sie kann ja nicht ohne Grund für 18 Monate hier sein. Es gab also viele Leute, zu denen ich mich hingezogen fühlte und sie waren zu mir hingezogen, und ich würde immer davon Zeugnis geben, dass man auf etwas stoßen kann, was man nicht versteht. Man muss verstehen lernen, warum man etwas tut, aber am Ende des Tages ist Gott derjenige, der dich liebt. Er ist der Architekt all dessen, was uns umgibt. Das allein sollte dir helfen, dabei zu bleiben. Glaube ist nicht blind: Haben einige dieser Menschen Sie spezifisch auf das Priestertum angesprochen? Loretta: Eine Person sprach mit mir und stellte mir diese Frage, weil sie nicht verstand, weshalb ich blieb. Sie waren weniger aktiv und fragten sich: „Warum sind Sie immer noch dabei, selbst wenn Sie wissen, dass dies gegen Ihr Volk gerichtet ist?“ Na ja, ich denke, Menschen sind nicht vollkommen. Gott arbeitet mit unvollkommenen Menschen, und weil er mit unvollkommenen Menschen arbeitet, machen Menschen Erfahrungen, die ihnen entweder helfen oder an denen sie scheitern. Und ihre Entscheidungen sind nicht Gottes Entscheidungen. Wir können uns nur Gottes Willen unterwerfen, nicht unserem eigenen. Aus welchem Grund auch immer—jene Entscheidung gehört der Vergangenheit an. Das ist jetzt kein Problem. Denn damals trafen sie ihre Entscheidungen, die zu jener Zeit nötig waren. Aber ich treffe jetzt diese Entscheidung. Und das sollte mir helfen. Glaube ist nicht blind: Sie behielten also die Kontrolle über Ihre Entscheidungen und ließen zu, dass Ihre Beziehung zu Gott allein IhreBeziehung zu Gott war. Wie lange sind Sie schon wieder zu Hause? Loretta: Schon eine ganze Weile. Ich kam im September 2014 zurück—vor beinahe 5 Jahren. Glaube ist nicht blind: Es beeindruckt mich so, dass Ihre Beziehung zu Gott eigentlich all Ihre Entscheidungen bestimmt hat. Ich meine, selbst bevor Ihnen klar wurde, dass es Gottes Liebe für Sie und Ihre Liebe für ihn war, die Sie drängte. Wie haben Sie das seit Ihrer Heimkehr bei Schwierigkeiten immer wieder angewandt? Wie würden Sie anderen Menschen empfehlen, das auch zu tun? Manchmal scheint es mir schwierig zu sein, wenn unsere Erwartungen sich nicht erfüllen oder wenn wir innerhalb und außerhalb der Kirche Konflikte haben. Wie stellen Sie sicher, dass die Liebe Gottes Sie motiviert und vorwärtsdrängt? Was würden Sie anderen Menschen raten, wie sie das auch tun können? Loretta: Ich denke, dass für mich persönlich Probleme oder Zweifel oder Fragen auftauchen, wenn man im Leben neue Erfahrungen macht. Entweder eine Prüfung oder eine neue Umgebung, irgendetwas, das die Situation verändert. Als ich auf Mission ging, wusste ich, dass ich weggehen und wiederkommen würde. Das war immer in meinem Hinterkopf—ganz gleich was hier passiert, ich werde wieder zu Hause sein. Alles ist in Ordnung. Dann aber kam ich nach Amerika und ich wusste nicht, wann ich nach Hause kommen würde. Momentan bin ich mir überhaupt nicht sicher. Ich bin wie ein Fisch ohne Wasser. Und als ich hierher kam, musste ich deshalb spirituell viel kämpfen, denn hier ist alles so anders, als ich es gewöhnt bin, und es fühlte sich so an, als ob meine Identität in Frage gestellt wurde. Also, wer bin ich und woher komme ich—in der Art. Ich erinnere mich an ein Gespräch mit meinem Pfahlpräsidenten zu Hause, wir redeten oft miteinander. Er sagte: „Na ja, als Sie auf Mission gegangen sind, war es zu einem Zweck—das Evangelium zu verkündigen und dann heimzukehren. Hier sind Sie für Ihre Ausbildung, das ist was anderes. Technisch ist es keine Mission, aber irgendwie doch, weil Sie hier sind, um sich weiterzubilden, aber auch, um anderen zu helfen. Nutzen Sie doch dieselbe Energie und dieselbe Motivation, die Sie auf Mission hatten, und wenden Sie sie hier an. Und das ist nicht leicht, weil Sie wissen, dass Sie keine Missionarin sind, doch sollten Sie damit beginnen, wie eine zu denken. Als erstes, dass Sie die Menschen lieben, denen Sie dienen und dann, dass man das nicht miteinander vergleichen kann. Zu Hause benutzten wir eine bestimmte Sorte Geld und in England benutzt man das Pfund. Was ist das? Das kann man nicht vergleichen, also: Wieso habe ich amerikanische Dollar? Sie sind jetzt hier. Dies ist Ihr Zuhause, also sollten Sie lernen, diese Menschen zu lieben, von denen Sie umgeben sind.“ Ich antwortete: „Okay. Das kann ich machen. Das ist kein Problem.“ Also begann ich, entsprechend  zu handeln, und ich entschied mich, im Tempel zu arbeiten, weil ich meinte, auf diese Weise vielen Menschen ohne Missionsarbeit oder so dienen zu können. Also begann ich als Tempelarbeiter zu dienen. Mir wurde vieles beigebracht und mir wurde klar, dass Menschen bei ihren inneren Kämpfen manchmal die Suppe nicht auslöffeln, also sich ihren Herausforderungen nicht stellen wollen. Ich habe keine Angst vor Prüfungen. Ich mag sie nicht, habe aber keine Angst vor ihnen, weil ich schon so manches erlebt habe. Also alles was kommt—her damit. Es macht mir nichts aus. Ich habe keine Angst und der Satan weiß, dass Loretta keine Angst hat, und deshalb versucht er, einfache Dinge zu finden, um mich abzulenken. Für mich war es der Ansatz, gleichgültig zu werden. Ich werde zur Kirche gehen. Ich werde alles tun, was ich zu tun habe, aber ich bin nicht engagiert. Ich bin nur körperlich in der Abendmahlsversammlung anwesend, aber nicht wirklich da. Nichts. Nichts wird aufgenommen. Nichts kommt dabei heraus. Und das war meine Prüfung. Ich war einfach nur da. Wenn ich aber zum Tempel gehe, kann ich ganz da sein. Aber alles andere ist mir egal. Ich bin am falschen Platz. Ich denke, dass sich das so anfühlt, wenn Menschen gleichgültig werden. Wir machen alles automatisch. Wir sind nicht richtig involviert. Wenn jemand mit etwas kämpft, muss er nicht weniger aktiv sein oder aufhören, zur Kirche zu gehen. Wir alle können gemeinsam in der Kirche sitzen und alle anwesend sein, aber wir sind nicht wirklich da. Wir sind nicht im Alltag mit dem beschäftigt, was wir eigentlich tun sollten. Und deshalb gefiel mir dieses Gefühl nicht. Ich dachte bei mir: „Das macht mir keine Freude und das bin nicht ich.“ Also entschloss ich mich, mit meinem Bischof zu sprechen, und erklärte ihm: „Ich habe meine Schriften nicht gelesen und auch nicht gebetet. Was können wir tun?“ Und er sagte: „So sieht das aber nicht aus, wenn Sie zur Kirche kommen.“ Und ich: „Genau das ist das Problem, Bischof. Sie sehen es nicht. Wissen Sie, jeder, der dasitzt, könnte mit etwas kämpfen, aber Sie können das nicht sehen.“ Wir tun, was von uns erwartet wird. Ich komme zur Kirche, bin aber nicht wirklich da. Und ich bin die Einzige, die genügend Mut hat, Ihnen zu sagen, was ich gerade durchmache. Es mag Millionen in dieser Gemeinde geben, die das Gleiche erleben, und ich glaube, Sie müssen Wege finden, um uns zu helfen. Es geht nicht nur um Ausländer; jeder braucht solche Führung.“ Ich möchte die Führer der Kirche stärken. Wenn überhaupt, dann können sie meine Wegweiser auf dem Pfad zurück zu meinem Vater im Himmel sein. Also machte ich das und als ich anfing, diese Grundsätze anzuwenden—nämlich, diejenige zu sein, die sich entschied, zur Kirche zu gehen, und zwar nicht, um gesehen zu werden—sondern um da zu sein, weil ich Jesus Christus und den Vater im Himmel mehr liebe als alles andere. Mit dem Gedanken will ich zur Kirche gehen. Und so begann es einfach. Glaube ist nicht blind: Es ist bemerkenswert, dass Sie sich zur Kirche hingezogen fühlten, weil Sie den Wunsch hatten, sich uneingeschränkt zu verpflichten. Und diese Verpflichtung half Ihnen, in Ihren Kämpfen dabei zu bleiben. Letztendlich erkannten Sie, wenn man uneingeschränkt dabei sein will, muss man auch innerlich dabei sein, nicht nur äußerlich. Manchmal glauben wir, dass wir die Liebe Gottes immer fühlen können, unabhängig von unserem Verhalten, aber Sie zeigen die Verbindung zwischen Selbstverpflichtung und Mitwirken und der Fähigkeit, die Liebe Gottes zu fühlen. Die Liebe ist immer vorhanden, um sie aber zu fühlen, muss man sich verpflichten und aktiv mitwirken. Und manchmal besteht unser Mitwirken einfach darin, Gott in unseren Kämpfen einen Vertrauensvorschuss zu geben. Zum Schluss bitte ich Sie, noch eines zu beschreiben. Wenn Sie die Liebe Gottes fühlen—und die scheint Sie anzutreiben—wie fühlt sich das an? Loretta: Bei mir zeigt sie sich, weil ich von Natur aus ein fröhlicher Mensch bin. Wenn ich durch jemanden oder irgendwas wirklich verärgert bin, bin ich nicht glücklich. Und wenn ich nicht glücklich bin, kann man das sehen. Ich kann das nicht verbergen, denn ich bin von Natur aus fröhlich. Und wenn ich nicht so bin, fällt es anderen auf. Ich muss gar nichts sagen. Sie sehen es, auch wenn ich versuche, es zu verbergen. Menschen spüren es irgendwie, wenn mit Loretta etwas nicht stimmt. Und deshalb denke ich, dass die Liebe, die ich vom Vater im Himmel empfange, sich darin zeigt, wie ich andere Menschen behandle und ihnen diene—wie ich mich um meine Freunde kümmere oder meine Familie. Seitdem ich mich der Kirche angeschlossen habe, bete ich darum, dass man die Liebe, die der Vater im Himmel für mich hat, daran erkennen kann, wie ich anderen helfe. Wenn ich jemandem helfe, möchte ich, dass sie den Vater im Himmel fühlen können, nicht mich. Und auf diese Weise weiß ich, dass ich die Liebe des Vaters im Himmel spüren kann—wenn ich anderen gerne helfe, wenn ich eifrig bestrebt bin, auf alle mögliche Art und Weise Liebe zu zeigen. Und wenn ich zum Tempel gehe. Ich liebe es, in den Tempel zu gehen. Es ist der einzige Ort, wo nichts anderes Bedeutung hat—unabhängig von dem, was passiert. Ich bin glücklich und fühle mich geliebt—jedes Mal wenn ich dort bin. Der Vater im Himmel achtet darauf, mich das jedes Mal, wenn ich hingehe, spüren zu lassen „Ich liebe dich“ und „Du bist wichtig“. Deshalb möchte ich den Tempel niemals verlassen. Glaube ist nicht blind: Und das zeigt, wie wichtig es ist, dass Sie diese Selbstverpflichtung niemals aufgeben—nämlich, um dort sein zu können, wo Sie diese Liebe fühlen können. Danke, dass Sie uns Ihre Geschichte erzählt haben; das ist eine besondere Geschichte und Sie sind ein besonderer Mensch. Danke, dass Sie uns ein Beispiel gezeigt haben und mit anderen das Evangelium teilen. Ganz herzlichen Dank. The post Loretta (Simbabwe): Wie eine Neubekehrte für sich gelernt hat, den Priestertumsbann einzuordnen first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Terryl Givens Part One: My Personal Story of Continually Restructured Testimony &nbsp; In a rare, personal interview about his childhood and teenage years, Terryl Givens recounts how his family encountered the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and what originally attracted him to the faith when he was a teenager. He also shares a personal account of how writing By the Hand of Mormon both challenged and sustained his faith. Further reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “There are some natural tensions between faith and reason, which offer an instructive variation on the theme of tensions between early simplicity and complexity. These experiences reinforced my inclination to seek what I would simply call a balanced approach. I didn’t need to make a permanent choice between my heart and my head.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 6, “The Head and Heart Paradox,” p. 46) FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I&#8217;m Eric d’Evegnée and I&#8217;m here today with Professor Terryl Givens. Welcome, Terryl. Terryl: Good to be here. Faith Is Not Blind: Would you mind giving us a little bit of introduction to yourself? Terryl: Well, my name is Terryl Givens. I am presently employed as a senior researcher at the Neal A Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, having very recently retired from 30 years of teaching at University of Richmond in Virginia. My background is in languages and literatures and intellectual history. I have a Masters Degree from Cornell and a Doctorate in Comparative Literature from Chapel Hill. I had my first job at the University of Richmond and I taught there for 20 years. I was born in New York state, but we moved to Arizona when I was very young. My father and mother joined the church when I was eight or nine and so I&#8217;m never sure if that qualifies me to be a convert or  if that means I&#8217;m a lifelong member. But we joined the church. At that point it didn&#8217;t take initially. We attended church for a few years and then just kind of faded out of activity. I wasn&#8217;t quite sure why. I’m still not sure of the  reasons but for much of my childhood we didn&#8217;t really have any connection to the church. When I was 16 my father had a kind of Lehi experience of sorts. He suddenly had the desire&#8211;the impression&#8211;to move his family back East. I still remember as a sixteen-year-old rather unhappy youth, pulling up to a campground in Central Virginia together with a family large in a family caravan and having the attendant ask my father, “How long are you going to be staying in our campground?”  And my father said, “Until I find work.” So like Nephi I lived in a tent. That was actually my home address for a while while my father looks for work. And being kind of isolated and cut off from everything and everyone my parents looked up the local church. So as  a 16-year-old boy my family reconnected with the church. And that was really when I began to take seriously my religious commitment. Faith Is Not Blind: So like Lehi, your dad feels like he needs to move back East and he&#8217;s living there in the campground trying to find work. So did you feel like as his son, you had a similar experience to Nephi where part of your conversion to the gospel also included trying to understand what your what your dad was seeing or what he is going through? Terryl: I think so. I think I was ready at that moment in my life&#8211;right around 16 or 17&#8211;those are formative years. Years thinking about your future in college and those kinds of things. And I was struck by the fact that my father and his commitment turned so profound so quickly. It was largely a function of him really delving into Latter-day Saint Doctrine and Theology and being attracted to what he saw as its rational appeal. And so I immediately began to collect books and built my own library and found very quickly a life-long commitment. Faith Is Not Blind: What books were you reading? Terryl: Well, it would probably seem a little dated now to most people. I remember LeGrand Richards’ Marvelous Work and a Wonder affected me profoundly. That was also the time that I read the Book of Mormon for the first time. I had a wonderful Seminary teacher who was very influential and a Stake Patriarch who I still revere his memory. I think it was pretty much the usual kind of thing coming from Deseret Book and Bookcraft&#8211; Paul H. Dunn books and the like. Faith Is Not Blind: Then what about your conversion itself? Did that conversion come through reading the Book of Mormon or was it in conjunction with the other books or a combination of all of them? Terryl: I think it was very much a combination. I think I was very much entranced by the fullness of the scope and the complexity of what Latter-day Saints call the Plan of Salvation&#8211;The Plan of Happiness. I just found it very intellectually appealing as a set of propositions that addressed all the great questions. Faith Is Not Blind: One thing we talk about in these podcasts is when people experience a conversion, there’s usually one or many experiences that they have where that conversion gets challenged. So for you what was a moment in your life when your conversion got challenged? Terryl: It wasn’t until many years later as an adult and father I had a near-death experience near drowning, which I won&#8217;t delve into in this context. But it was an experience that left me very unsettled and feeling quite bereft. Until then there had been a number of certainties with which I lived. And I found myself at a place in my life where I was having to ask for the very first time what I think is a question that all of us need to ask: “Is there anything that I really know with absolute certainty?” Very few of us can say I know you beyond any doubt that God lives and that  Joseph was a prophet. Some can. To some is given that gift. And I found my surprise, but also to my comfort, that it turns out that there are some things that I knew at the deepest levels of my being. I knew that the truth and fidelity and honor are good. And that cruelty and kindness and wickedness and disloyalty are bad. And for me, starting with that certitude that our moral sensibility transcends evolutionary inheritance or socialization was for me an indication that there is something like a veil that is permeable, that we do have access to deep truths by which to govern and live our lives. And so I began I guess what I would refer to as a systematic reconstituting of my faith and testimony at that point in my life that has continued to the present time. Faith Is Not Blind: And how did that help you with your faith from that point on? Terryl:  Well, I think I think I&#8217;ve become more acutely aware of the grounds of belief. And I think I have become sensitive to a greater variety of sources from which faith derives.I&#8217;ll give you a few examples.  I&#8217;ve been very deeply impressed in my life by the poet Gerard Manley Hopkins. And one of his poems was written when he went to his own dark night of the soul&#8211;one of a series of beautiful sonnets. And one of them ends “Christ plays in ten thousand places, lovely in limbs and lovely in eyes not his to the Father through the features of men’s faces.” And I have the sense&#8211;can’t logically defend it&#8211;but it&#8217;s just a deeply embedded sense I have that there has to be a source from which ultimate beauty and ultimate goodness come. And that I can see and sense that being transmitted or being conveyed through the beautiful acts and countenances and features of those around me who have clearly been God-touched. And so that&#8217;s one example of a source of testimony that I don&#8217;t think I would have thought about as a sixteen-year-old new convert. But it strikes me now as a very profound catalyst for fortification of our faith. Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. That experience of beauty and that it has to come from somewhere. Another question I have, thinking about your background and some of the things that you&#8217;ve written&#8211;Viper on the Hearth or By the Hand of Mormon and intellectual history&#8211;have you encountered challenges to your testimony that have come from things you&#8217;ve read or ideas that you’ve encountered? Terryl: Yes. Absolutely. For example, when I was writing By the Hand of Mormon, which was really a turning point in my career. I opened the Church News one day and saw that the Church had just published the 100 millionth copy of the Book of Mormon. And I wondered how that compares to other best sellers. It turns out, as I learned very quickly,  that that makes the best selling book in American history produced by an American. So I secured a contract from Oxford to write that book. The question then became, “How do you write as an academic for an academic audience a book about sacred scripture?” You have to effectively bracket questions of faith and supernatural origins. And so I wanted to write what we call in literature “ a reception history.”  How has the book been received, treated, packaged, understood? And I thought to do this I wanted to to read every single critical attack leveled against the Book of Mormon, which I knew could be seen as flirting with danger. The premise behind my project was if the Book of Mormon can&#8217;t sustain every single attack that has been launched against it then it doesn&#8217;t deserve our faith and commitment. And so I took that challenge very seriously. Beginning with 1829 and proceeding to the present, I tried to cover this vast corpus of criticism&#8211;some of it superficial and silly, but some of it very profound and vexing. And so I found a lot of hills and valleys to my faith as I waded through that project. But in the end I came up with a greater conviction and commitment to the Book of Mormon than I started with. Faith Is Not Blind: Can you think of an example of something in particular you found that was vexing? Terryl: Well of course there have been many candidates that have been proffered as having provided influence. Some of the first ones were the Spaulding manuscript, the view of Hebrew, later a certain account of the War of 1812.  And taking some phrasings in isolation you do see what seemed to be striking congruences at times or borrowings. But I fairly soon came to a place where I believe and continue to believe to this day that Joseph received impressions&#8211;he received ideas, glimpses, pictures, images, concepts. But that the Lord had to work through the  cultural and intellectual vocabulary that was available to Joseph Smith. And so the particular words and meanings aren&#8217;t the thing on which we should hang our faith. Faith Is Not Blind: We talk about God having to work with our agency, but we often don&#8217;t equate agency and imagination together. God has to work with the imagination or even simply just the cultural milieu. Terryl: Yes. And I think this is a source of misunderstanding on the part of members of the church, especially those whose faith is challenged by the question of will how could you change revelations. How could there be revisions?  And yet I think we’ve missed the point clearly as evidenced by when the church published the Joseph Smith Papers and especially when they publish the facsimile version of the Doctrine and Covenants. What I love is the fact that it&#8217;s Illustrated in seven different colors so you can actually see the color coded contributions of the series of editors and collaborators that Joseph invited into participation in the project. So here’s a Prophet saying, “I declare these to be revelations given to me by the Spirit and yet clearly I can improve upon the wording and the formulations of the phrases. So I invite these men to help me come closer to what I think was that essential truth toward which God was trying to move my spirit and my mind.”  That seems to me a very humble confession and a very open and public confession on the part of Joseph Smith that revelation is seldom perfect and that even as a prophet he is an imperfect, flawed mediator between God&#8217;s word and his verbal expression. So of course it shouldn’t confuse us or disappoint us if we find that even the Book of Mormon is not a literal transcript of God speaking to him through some kind of means. Faith Is Not Blind: I mean, how are you supposed to talk about the sublime? How do you get that onto a page? How do you communicate that difficult process? It’s not just some revelation that’s just dropped into your head and it’s perfect. I’ve often thought about that with the Kirtland Temple and the vision at the Kirtland Temple where it’s almost like a blueprint where they get the revelation where they see every beam. Maybe there are some revelations like that, but it seems like most revelations aren’t quite that detailed and things need to be worked out and thought through. Terryl: I think the notion of God dictating to Joseph with a pen in hand saying, “Here are the words” is in almost all cases a little over-simplistic. Faith Is Not Blind: Thinking about your own conversion and some of those challenges and issues that have been raised, what are two or three things that you would say to others that help you remain faithful and that could help them remain faithful? Terryl: It was just this past week I was reading in 2 Nephi and I came to Lehi’s sermon to his children and he&#8217;s talking about the Atonement and he&#8217;s talking about the Fall and he said something which in all my readings I had missed. It talked about Adam and Eve’s decision to eat of the fruit of the tree and he said if  they had not eaten of the fruit of the tree “all things would have remained in that state in which they were when they were created.” And I was suddenly struck by that. Think about what he&#8217;s saying that there&#8211;that the  worst of all possible fates and conditions would be to remain in the state in which God has created us. To my mind one of the most thrilling, exciting things about Mormonism is the fact that it’s this dynamic, vital, growing, organic thing and that God expects us to be engaged in this project of continual self transformation and renewal. And so I hope that in 10 years the testimony and faith and understanding I have today seems naive and simple by contrast. So I don&#8217;t know where people get the idea that a testimony should be the same now and forever and that somehow there&#8217;s some kind of act of desperation involved in trying to reconstruct our testimony to meet new evidence. No, we should always be reconstituting, reconstructing our testimony. I think one of the greatest errors of us as a people is this assumption&#8211;think about the presumption that we believe that we can become like God, which is just a foundational principle of Latter-day Saint thought&#8211;if we believe that, think about the sin in thinking that that distance between where we are now and where God is can be bridged by a couple of months of good home teaching and paying our tithing. The distance is so inconceivably immense. So to think that we can capture in language or human conceiving at any given moment the complexity in the fullness and the richness of what it means to believe In Christ and his Atonement in his gospel is just absurd and presumptuous. So of course we&#8217;re just groping in the dark trying to get some kind of a handle. It reminds me of the of John Keats the poet shortly before he died knowing he was dying of tuberculosis, he writes this beautiful, pathetic letter to his brother George in which he laments his incapacity to penetrate the veil and he talks about these faint particles of light, as he calls them, that he detects and senses and tries to grasp hold of. And I think we all need more humility when it comes to what we really mean when we say we know the gospel is true. What we mean is that have glimmerings that our heart affirms&#8211;that we have faints grasps of some of the outlines of what it might mean to be God or to be human aspiring to be like God and to just be more humble about what our own limitations are at any moment and to grasp the truth and be open to change and transformation and challenges to our testimony that force us to reconceive in more interesting complex and sophisticated ways our faith. Faith Is Not Blind: One thing I think that&#8217;s difficult is in order to produce the faith to do some of those things ministering or paying your tithing, I think people feel like they need more than just a glimmer. So what would you say to people that feel like they need more than a glimmering? Or maybe to increase that glimmer so they can be as faithful as they feel like they want to be? Terryl: I guess we need to reorient ourselves. The thing is the Latter-day Saint tradition is rooted in such an array of wild historical claims&#8211;gold plates and angels and visitations. We get distracted and that becomes our focus. So we lose sight of what the real purpose of religion is, which is to invite us into this transformative relationship with God. And it&#8217;s understandable. You know, the President of the Reorganized Church once said, “History as theology is perilous.” Well, of course it’s perilous. But it’s worth the risk. Because Christianity begins with a historical proposition&#8211;this man named Jesus of Nazareth was born, lived, and died and then he came to life again at this moment in history in a real-world. So you can&#8217;t pretend that history isn&#8217;t important. But that&#8217;s not the point. People are thrown for a loop because the Book of Abraham wasn&#8217;t translated in quite the way that they thought it was or Joseph used a different translation method with the Book of Mormon than they expected&#8211;those things are so irrelevant to what the point of religion is. We just need to take upon us that individual responsibility of centering our religion in our relationship to the Healer of the World and not to Joseph Smith or foundational historical moments. Faith Is Not Blind: That reminds me of a quote from Vichtenstein where he talks about the Gospels and why God didn&#8217;t just have four really fantastic historians write down the Gospels. He says they’re just four people and they&#8217;re just trying to write the best history that they can and sometimes there are contradictions or omissions. And he says it’s that way so we don&#8217;t confuse the setting with what’s actually taking place. So we don&#8217;t get lost in the detail and miss the testimony of the Son of God, which is the most important thing. Thank you. I appreciate it The post Terryl Givens Part One: My Personal Story of Continually Restructured Testimony first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Marie Hafen: Creating a Family Culture that Nurtures Complex Faith &nbsp; &nbsp; Marie Hafen: Creating a Family Culture that Nourishes Complex Faith by Faith Is Not Blind http://faithisnotblind.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/FINBMARIE_1.mp3 Sister Hafen is the co-author of Faith Is Not Blind and was on the Young Women General Board. As the mother of seven children, she found ways to create a comfortable environment for her children to develop their own faith in a safe space. She discusses how she tried to nurture and teach her children in a home where they could learn how to deal with complexity and feel free to openly discuss their beliefs and doubts. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “We aren’t attempting here to resolve all of the issues you may be confronting. But we are hoping you find . . . a pattern for how to think about your questions, and how  through grappling with them, to nourish your faith.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Prologue, “Listen Below the Noise,” p. 2)   FULL TEXT: Faith Is Not Blind: We&#8217;ve got a special interview today because I get the chance to interview my mother. I have a unique perspective on her and because of that, for this particular segment I wanted to focus on the home&#8211;partly because I know what it was like to be in Marie Hafen’s home growing up.  I wanted you to start, Mom, with talking about how the classroom that you described in the book and that you&#8217;ve described other places&#8211;the classroom that Wes Belnap created for the Religious Problems and that classroom experience influenced your home.  I love how you and Dad have always said that it started a conversation that helped your marriage develop. How did you continue that conversation in your home? How deliberate was it and what choices did you make to try and create a home that was like that type of classroom? Marie Hafen: Maybe it helps to go back a little bit to talk just for a minute about the kind of home that I grew up in. Because I had a mom and a dad who were quite different from each other. My mom was a redhead&#8211;she was outgoing, she was friendly, she loved other people. She grew up in the colonies of Mexico&#8211;the Mormon colonies with a very tight group of members who had gone there because of polygamy, but also with a group of fMexican people and Saints all around them. So her upbringing was very different from my Dad&#8217;s. She had a mom and a dad and her dad was very invested in raising their 13 children. My dad, on the other hand, grew up in Provo with four siblings and when he was younger than 3 his father passed away at age 34&#8211; very unexpected. My dad had a younger brother who was only 10 months old when this happened. So he grew up in a very sparing and sparse home. What do they call it when you want to hold on to things because you&#8217;re afraid you may not have them? Faith Is Not Blind: A scarcity mentality? Marie Hafen: Yes. So he grew up with a scarcity mentality. That was the issue. His mother was a very talented singer. She was going to go to New York to learn and then financial collapse made it not possible. But she wanted to keep her children together. She wanted to raise them so she did things to support them. Because she had no advanced education, but had grown up in an affluent home, she was willing to take in laundry so that she had the basic necessities and later on students from Brigham Young University to help pay the bills. So the children always grew up knowing they needed to work if they were going to have what they needed to have. My Dad was much more introspective as I was growing up. He didn&#8217;t talk much. He was a school teacher, so we always figured he had spent his talking time at school and didn&#8217;t have much left  to say at home. So we did not talk much about the issues of the day. My mom had a sure testimony. She didn&#8217;t ever question anything. She had her own versions of complexities&#8211;health complexities later. My dad questioned more but we didn&#8217;t hear his questioning, although we knew that there was a space when he was not that active in the church until he was called to be the clerk in the ward. And he did that for four Bishops, and that&#8217;s where I think he grew into his testimony. We knew there was always an issue&#8211;which I&#8217;m glad that we didn&#8217;t have to grapple with as you were growing up&#8211;and that was he was so frugal. It was hard for him to spend money for anything unless it was to save more money&#8211;then he could do that. So I saw him and my mom grapple with issues that caused some challenge between them because they just saw things differently. But again it wasn&#8217;t something that was acknowledged or dealt with directly. We just saw some of the emotional output from that. But but my mom was also independent enough that she thought,”Okay, if I see things that my kids need, I&#8217;m going to find a way to give them to my children even though my husband Ray doesn’t feel the same way about those things.” So she went to work. She got an education. We began to see how she had grappled with things that were difficult for her. Faith is Not Blind: When you went to BYU and you had this class where you were not only encouraged to talk about your religious problems, but you needed to do it for a grade, and then you made friends with whom you talked about it, how did that carry forward or help you? What did you think of that at first? Were you uncomfortable with it or you pretty comfortable with that classroom? Marie Hafen: I&#8217;m glad you asked that question because I came to BYU having chosen BYU over the University of Utah because I was thinking I might do chemistry. But that was not my thing. That was not my bliss. But when I came to BYU, I wanted to be even more grounded in the Gospel. I wanted to understand the depths of the Gospel. The Honors Program was just starting, so I had teachers like Chauncey Riddle,  like Truman Madsen, like Dan Ludlow. I wanted to understand&#8211;I wanted to know&#8211;what it meant to be sanctified. I wanted to know and I wanted to live better. Prior to that class with Wes Belnap, Bob Thomas&#8211;who was a mentor to both me and to your Dad&#8211;he said, “You’ve got to take this class Wes Belnap is teaching. You will understand some things in this class with the format he’s using.” He said, “Take it,” so I took it. And my issue was How can I live the gospel better through understanding what the Spirit is and through feeling the Spirit more?” Faith Is Not Blind: So with taking these issues and talking about them, what was appealing about that to you? Marie Hafen: I was beginning to see that differing views of things could actually give you a richer, more grounded, magnificent view of the world. And then your world view might be bigger in order to share. Your Dad’s issue was, “Should I be a liberal or a conservative?” Asking these questions helped us when we decided, for example, a spiritually based decision just before we got married. We fasted about it. It was when should we have our first child. This was not too long after we had that class because those classes from Truman Madsen and Bob Thomas was my literature teacher as well, but those wonderful broad-gauged, deep professors had given us a foundation that we could work from. Our decision for example&#8211;our spiritual decision&#8211;was to have our first child as soon as possible even though I was planning to get a Master&#8217;s Degree. And the first year I was pregnant taking classes and teaching classes, because I was teaching freshman writing, and they were trying something new. Karen Lynn Davidson was one of my co teachers with Marshall Craig was the Master Teacher. I was getting all this wonderful input developing within me that was different from my Mom and different from my Dad. As far as our home was concerned we took that first little redhead in and I can remember when he was born I didn&#8217;t think any child would ever be born again because it was such a magnificent experience. But the second year I worked on my Master&#8217;s Degree while I was pregnant again with David, so I can remember walking across the stage to get my diploma at 8 and-a-half months pregnant. So there was a definite desire within me to be educated and to keep learning. We began to see this in our home. And now that classroom with the things we carried forward from iit was a place of safety. It was a place where we could express, we could brainstorm, and we would feel like it was okay&#8211;that there was mutual trust there. Faith Is Not Blind: So you taught classes on the University level and you understood how to teach. What would you say was filtered into your teaching of your children? I think some parents might feel like they need to be an authoritarian and tell the kids exactly what to do. How did you create a place of safety and peace&#8211;which is difficult when you have seven children. Marie Hafen: I would say that we did not get that focused about that issue until a little later because we had four children in less than 6 years, so home life was not always organized. So that was a little different from the classroom. Faith Is Not Blind: That makes sense. I think it&#8217;s interesting that your project for the class was about finding the Spirit in your life. So as a young mother with all of that busyness, I think that could be a classroom&#8211;but maybe not as much for your kids&#8211;maybe for you. How did you find learning for yourself personally during those years? Marie Hafen: Because you&#8217;re working with being deliberate at helping your children to grow to a point where they might be able to have that kind of class around the dinner table&#8211;the kind of class that we had in Wes Belnap’s class. I was searching during that time. How do we teach these children? Jon was very different from Dave, so you also have to customize what you&#8217;re trying to teach them. So as we bring that forward, how do you have a home then that will promote the kinds of things that Wes Belnap promoted? Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. How did you create a customized curriculum for your children? Your education and your ability to think about things&#8211;how did that help you to be open-minded enough not to have a one-size-fits-all model of parenting? Even though it was a gospel-centered home how did you make sure that it was individualized? Marie Hafen: That kind of came out organically. I mean you couldn&#8217;t just work with one child. And then the third child, Tom, was different from the other two And Emily was very different from the three of them. Faith Is Not Blind: Yes. I can see that. How did your education help? Marie Hafen: I asked myself, “How can I help these children to grow up to be able to think? There&#8217;s a lot of emotion around this house. There&#8217;s a lot of noise.” But they need to be able to see how we can help them to have their emotions be good and not out of control. So that their brain is a tool that will help to them control their emotions. Faith Is Not Blind: Which is a much different question than “How can I get my children to follow the commandments?” or “How can I get them to be obedient or to look like this ideal family? Because you&#8217;re making a sacrifice if you&#8217;re allowing the kids to develop their own ideas. Marie Hafen: For me, that seemed to be a kind of a natura,  organic thing that happened as I was trying to help these kids and trying to have a connection with God along the way. You did ask me a question earlier about how my education led to that. I was remembering something that came from Carolyn Pearson who said, “Before becoming somebody&#8217;s wife, before becoming somebody&#8217;s mother, try to become somebody.” You have your own developed mind and spirit and your own relationship with God. And that is just as valuable as well. And then we began to see if our children were growing up and we were having discussions and we wanted to be intentional about our parenting in  terms of them gaining what we hoped they were gaining, it was very focused and intentional. We would have dinner together. And  later looking back we read something that said this was&#8211; I don’t want to say it wrong because I read it before I heard it&#8211;Tavola. It was an Italian word that meant having dinner together every day. That was the place where you learned your culture. That&#8217;s where you learned how to engage with other people who might think differently from you, but where you could learn and grow together. And that&#8217;s why we tried every night to have dinner together. Faith Is Not Blind: I can say that wasn&#8217;t just an ideal. As someone growing up in your home, I knew we were going to have dinner together every night and that it was an expectation. And honestly it was something that I looked forward to. How did you try and promote conversations?  I know you had healthy dinners and you tried to have us help cook the food and clean up&#8211;which worked some of the time. Marie Hafen: It&#8217;s tiring to get dinner on the table and to get schedules coordinated and with your dad being very busy and you want to have good nutrition. You know my mother&#8211;she was concerned about the nutrition facts. She had whole wheat and raisins for breakfast. So at dinner there was a purpose in that. It&#8217;s giving the kids questions to answer and asking questions&#8211;your dad was especially good at that. You could ask a good question that any of the kids at the table could contribute to no matter what their level was. Because there were younger kids and older kids and as the kids got into High School Jon was a debater, so he brought all of these points of you and sometimes he would take the opposite point of view just to move the conversation in an interesting level. There was an expectation that everyone would not give a  unified answer because they were different kids. For one thing we knew they were headed in different directions. We wanted to foster whatever was their gift to give the world. Now I do have to say that I began to learn something because you kids would tease me as I was trying to keep a little order. Yes,  you kids had your work to do, but I wanted to be sure that the kitchen was cleaned up before I went to bed. So sometimes I would leave the table and I would be cleaning up by the sink and the kids would tease me a little bit about that. But I was always turned to the conversation and I would shout something from the sink. But I think if I could go back I would say, “Okay, I&#8217;m going to sit down and talk with you right now. And at the end of the meal then we&#8217;ll all pick up our dishes.” But you did anyway even if it was your turn to do the dishes. Faith Is Not Blind: I think maybe it&#8217;s okay for it to be messy&#8211;and maybe we should be okay with it being messy both literally and figuratively some of the time. Marie Hafen: Yes,  and that&#8217;s where we talked about some of the issues. We talked about work. Let&#8217;s take this apart. Let&#8217;s see what the parts are. So that&#8217;s deconstruction, but we always wanted to be constructive in the way we put it back together. Faith Is Not Blind: Yeah, so they can have deconstruction constructively. Marie Hafen: That&#8217;s what we were trying to do. Faith Is Not Blind: And that’s what post-structuralism is all about. That you can deconstruct ideas, but then reconstruct them in order to find Redemption. We share that in common with our degrees in English and I think we both appreciate the ability to find Redemption. Marie Hafen: That&#8217;s right. Even when I was having two babies while I was working on my Master&#8217;s Degree, I was still also learning that there is a broader way to look at things. Because when I first came I didn&#8217;t realize there was a difference between the New York Times and The Washington Post. So you learn things to broaden your perspective that you can bring forward to your family. Faith Is Not Blind: Because I had been raised in that home, I don&#8217;t think I appreciated it necessarily. I remember a moment when you took time to drive a friend and me to a university to look at the university and to look at the dorm to decide where we would go to college. And it was a several hour drive. And at the end of the drive when we got to the destination my friend looked at me and said, Does your mom always do that?” And I said, “Do what?” because I had no idea what she was talking about. And she said, “Does she always ask you questions and find out what you think? Does she always engage with you like that?” She had not been raised in a home where that happened and I thought about it and I said. Yes, she does.” And I thought to myself, “Doesn&#8217;t everybody&#8217;s mom do that?” And my friend said, “I love how she does that. I want to do that too.” And I was grateful for that moment because I think when you&#8217;re raised in a gospel classroom it&#8217;s easy not to appreciate it or to deliberately choose it.  So now with your grandchildren&#8211;how many grandchildren do you have? Marie Hafen: We have 46 total. There are two of them who are on the other side and we hope they&#8217;re cheering for us&#8211;we need that. Faith Is Not Blind: I think it&#8217;s interesting, just listening to you talk about your family, how none of this was really static. It was developmental. Deliberately developmental. And through each stage you tried to learn, which demonstrates that it&#8217;s more of an attitude rather than a checklist mentality. So what do you do now as a grandmother to try and keep that up? Marie Hafen: I have to mention one thing. I think that we as grandparents bring more to bear with our grandchildren than perhaps we did even with our children.  I think that brings more richness. I feel like I am more independent than I used to be&#8211;not as regimented and I think that&#8217;s also good. But there has to be a certain amount of order in which you can bring these things to bear. We&#8217;re trying to do the same thing with our grandchildren that we did with our children&#8211;we gather them around the table. We&#8217;re lucky enough to have many of them come to school either at BYU or UVUU or sometimes they come to work and they bring very different perspectives to the table. And we hope they feel that it&#8217;s a safe place they can brainstorm. That they can say what they really think and it will enrich their education and enhance our relationships. Because I think that&#8217;s the base&#8211;it&#8217;s the relationships with each other and with God that helps us bring everything together in a way that helps. Because if your purpose is to have a relationship with each other rather than just do things the way that you think that you should, it’s very different. And if your purpose is to have a relationship with God then when you see each other, it&#8217;s nurturing and nourishing. And we hope it’s a good pattern that we hope we can help them develop for their own families. Faith Is Not Blind: As your daughter I can say that these patterns were valuable enough to me that we try very hard to continue them because it was so nurturing and nourishing. And it helped me develop an individual identity as well as in identity as your daughter and the daughter of God.  I appreciate that and I appreciate you. It’s wonderful to hear your story. The post Marie Hafen: Creating a Family Culture that Nurtures Complex Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Missy: When a Parent Chooses to Leave The Church &nbsp;   Missy’s whole world changed when her Dad chose to leave the church and her Mom chose to stay. The stark contrasts that existed in her home gradually taught Missy to stop seeing in black and white and to learn to love her Dad unconditionally rather than to judge his choices. This new willingness to see and to accept the &#8220;gray areas&#8221; strengthened not only her relationship with her Dad but also her relationship with Heavenly Father. Missy’s story helps to demonstrate how we can learn to see our loved ones through God’s eyes regardless of the choices they make, and how God’s eyes can teach us to see these people with hope and charity rather than with judgment or criticism. The post Missy: When a Parent Chooses to Leave The Church first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Emily G : Coping with Pornography Addiction A survivor of sexual abuse and early exposure to pornography, Emily G found herself feeling helpless about how to overcome the effects of this trauma. As a mathematician, she discusses how her love of finding solutions to difficult problems helped her to endure and to cope with these difficult issues. Emily is refreshingly honest about her experiences and doesn’t minimize the burden, which makes her story both realistic and encouraging. Further reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Our encounters with doubt and questions aren’t always imposed on us by a threat or an enemy. Whatever their source, they can be an opportunity to learn and grow from experience.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 4, “Some Internet Soft Spots,” p. 38) The post Emily G : Coping with Pornography Addiction first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Jessica: A Mother&#8217;s Story: Learning to Love My Life Even When I Hated It As a thoughtful mother, Jessica’s honest perspective about the difficulty of raising children teaches a unique lesson about how faith can be nurtured by situations that stretch us in unexpected ways. Jessica is the mother of six young children and she isn’t afraid to admit that this experience has challenged her testimony in intense ways. Even though she loves being a mother, this love did not come to her naturally or easily. She shares how she has taught herself to allow her love of motherhood and her understanding of her relationship with her Heavenly Parents to evolve. Further reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Simply knowing something will not sanctify us; it won’t make us capable of being in God’s presence. And our sanctifying experiences won’t always be rational. By its very nature, faith ultimately takes beyond the boundaries of reason. So if we condition our faith on rationality, we might shrink back from a sanctifying experiences—and thus not discover what the experience could teach.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 7 “Beyond Balance,” p. 57) The post Jessica: A Mother’s Story: Learning to Love My Life Even When I Hated It first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Stan: Learning to Love a Gay Daughter with Charity and Understanding: Ricks Family Part I This extraordinary three-part podcast series shares the real story of parents who learned how to love their gay daughter unconditionally. They share both the painful and healing parts of their journey and give us a glimpse into how they manage to cling to both their faith and their daughter. Both Connie and Stan’s stories can be shared with those searching for the most effective ways to show love to their LGBTQ children. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Nourished by his love for the Lord and the Lord’s love for him, he was changed more by that love than by his thinking.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 14 “The Benefit of the Doubt and Moving Beyond Complexity,” p. 116) The post Stan: Learning to Love a Gay Daughter with Charity and Understanding: Ricks Family Part I first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Lauren: Being Gay and Being Raised in the Church—A Story of Hope: Ricks Family Part III With remarkable wisdom and courage, Lauren gives us a raw and rare glimpse of what it&#8217;s like for an LDS adolescent to realize that he or she is gay. It is a privilege to listen to her describe how she survived a suicide attempt and was able to rebuild not only her life, but her relationship with her parents. We encourage both parents of LGBTQ children and members of the LGBTQ community to listen to Lauren’s advice about how to maintain both faith and supportive relationships. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “In times when my heart has broken open with tenderness for Him, there have been moments when He has allowed me to feel His tears falling with mine. My faith flows from such moments and assures me that with Him—because of Him—our barren wildernesses can be turned into watered gardens.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Epilogue, “Descending to Ascend,” p. 131) The post Lauren: Being Gay and Being Raised in the Church—A Story of Hope: Ricks Family Part III first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Seth (England) : A Bishop&#8217;s Faith Crisis Helped Him Develop Stronger, More Empathetic Faith As a history teacher, Seth’s experience with exploring his questions and concerns about church history beautifully parallels the lines from Robert Frost about how woods can be “lovely, dark and deep.” Seth shares how he still mitigates the mundane aspects of every day faith and how he has learned to appreciate his lived experiences and interactions with others as a form of worship.      The Gerard Manley Hopkins poem referenced in the podcast is “Pied Beauty.” “Pied Beauty” Glory be to God for dappled things – For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow; For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim; Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings; Landscape plotted and pieced – fold, fallow, and plough; And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim. All things counter, original, spare, strange; Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?) With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim; He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change: Praise him. Further Reading in Faith is Not Blind: “The witness more powerful than sight applies to the role of actual, demanding experience in developing a witness that one knows the Savior. It is one thing to know about Him, but quite another to know Him. And that higher degree of ‘knowing’ usually comes after complexity. Often it comes because of the complexity.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 11 “A Witness More Powerful Than Sight,” p. 91) The post Seth (England) : A Bishop’s Faith Crisis Helped Him Develop Stronger, More Empathetic Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Ryan : A Scientist&#8217;s Perspective on How Faith and Study Don&#8217;t Have to Be at Odds Ryan shares the journey his faith took as he became a scientist. He describes how he finds hope in belief rather than in knowledge. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “There are some natural tensions between faith and reason, which offer an instructive variation on the theme of tensions between early simplicity and complexity. These experiences reinforced my inclination to seek what I would simply call a balanced approach. I didn’t need to make a permanent choice between my heart and my head.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 6, “The Head and Heart Paradox,” p. 46) The post Ryan : A Scientist’s Perspective on How Faith and Study Don’t Have to Be at Odds first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Jeff: How a Harvard Graduate Found His Testimony in a Primary Classroom As he has traveled the world, Jeff has had the opportunity to meet many people and ask many questions. Jeff talks about how he grapples with questions and doubts and strives to maintain his faith even when he doesn’t have certainty. Jeff has a Ph.D. from the Harvard Kennedy School and has had a career as an economist at the IMF. Along the way, he has been the IMF’s residing representative in Ecuador, Ukraine, and Brussels. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Our freely chosen willingness to believe may very well be the determining factor is whether God’s promises can be fulfilled—because our beliefs impel the actions that only we can take to nourish the seed if faith in its growth.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 10 “Choosing to Believe,” p. 83) The post Jeff: How a Harvard Graduate Found His Testimony in a Primary Classroom first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Jordan (England): Recovery After My Faith Crisis While Jordan’s crisis of faith surprised and overwhelmed him, he was able to work through it with the help and support of his wife. Jordan’s story illustrates how both education and open communication can be used as tools to effectively grapple with doubts in order to produce even stronger faith. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “Learning from experience teaches us in ways that nothing else can. . . Central to that growth process is mortality’s unique opportunity to let us learn by experience—by practice—which is the only way we can develop capacities and skills. (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 9 “The Value of the Veil,” pp. 73-4) The post Jordan (England): Recovery After My Faith Crisis first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Kevin: How Being Lost Helped Me Become Found A California native who loves surfing, Kevin was raised in the Church, but wasn’t converted until later in his life when he decided to choose his beliefs for himself. His journey needed to become personal before he could find a relationship with God. Further Reading in Faith Is Not Blind: “We value what we discover more than we value what we are told. And unless we discover God’s influence for ourselves, perhaps we won’t know it’s there, even if an angel tells us it is.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 10 “Choosing to Believe,” p. 82) The post Kevin: How Being Lost Helped Me Become Found first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Derek: How A Philosophy Professor Appreciates the Beauty of Church Doctrine For Derek, the development of a testimony was a challenge both intellectually and emotionally. As an academic who teaches philosophy, Derek describes learning how to defend and appreciate his own rational and aesthetic experiences with faith. Further Reading In Faith is Not Blind: “William James said, ‘The question of having moral beliefs is decided by our will. If your heart does not want a world of moral reality, your head will assuredly never making you belief in one.’” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 10 “Choosing to Believe,” p. 83) The post Derek: How A Philosophy Professor Appreciates the Beauty of Church Doctrine first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Lauren W: Learning from Doubt and Finding Happiness on the Other Side Lauren W. grew up in a home where religious questions were welcomed, so she was surprised when her questions as a young adult led to a faith crisis. Lauren talks about the slow and steady process that led her to appreciate her faith as well as the questions themselves in a more mature, nuanced way. Further Reading In Faith is Not Blind: “Learning from experience teaches us in ways that nothing else can. . . Central to that growth process is mortality’s unique opportunity to let us learn by experience—by practice—which is the only way we can develop capacities and skills.” (Faith Is Not Blind, Chapter 9 “The Value of the Veil,” pp. 73-4) The post Lauren W: Learning from Doubt and Finding Happiness on the Other Side first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Jason : How Galileo and the Scientific Method Saved My Testimony Using scientific discovery as a metaphor for our spiritual growth, Jason recounts what has helped him continue to nurture his faith when he found contradictions in models of how he’d seen the Gospel practiced. Faith Is Not Blind: Welcome to the Faith Is Not Blind Podcast. I&#8217;m Eric d’Evegnée and I&#8217;m here today with Jason Rose. Welcome, Jason. We’d like to start out by having you introduce yourself a little bit. Just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, your background, and a little bit about your family. Jason: So I grew up mostly in a little town in Idaho called Buhl, not too far from Twin Falls. But before that my family bounced around quite a bit. From the time I was about two-and-a-half until I was six, we lived in Los Angeles. My mom worked as a nurse and my dad was at a truck broker. My parents were kind of growing apart a little bit, and my mom actually went to go see a divorce lawyer and said she wanted to get a divorce and apparently the lawyer was a member of the Church. He was actually a Stake President, which my mom didn&#8217;t know. As she was describing why she wanted to get a divorce he said, “Well, l I know these two young men that could come and visit your family and  teach you, and I think it would really help.”  And so she agreed to have the missionaries come and teach my family. The thing that I remember distinctly from that was just the feeling that I was so happy that the missionaries were there. I enjoyed them coming and teaching lessons. I was excited when they came over. Faith Is Not Blind: And how old were you? Jason: About 6 at this point.   Faith Is Not Blind: So you’re about six. And where were you at this point? Jason: We were still in LA.  Faith Is Not Blind: And they came over and taught your family the Gospel. Jason: Yes. And I remember distinctly walking around the school yard and reflecting on how happy I was and how much my family had changed in that period of time with missionaries there. My mom had been looking for a religion to raise us in and we had gone to other churches and tried other things, but this was different. And I definitely felt the difference and I was excited about that. I wasn&#8217;t old enough to get baptized at that point, but my mom got baptized and my older sister got baptized. My dad was less active and so he was reactivated. So a lot of unity came into our family and I felt like we had a focus and I really liked that. It wasn&#8217;t too long after that that we moved to Buhl. So that change from a big city to rural Idaho was pretty hard and it was particularly hard on my mom because she&#8217;d always worked as a nurse. In small-town Idaho that was really an unusual thing for someone who is LDS to work outside the home. So here was this person that was very competent and had a lot to contribute to the ward, but whenever she went to Church, she had to deal with that negative stereotype that surrounded women who worked outside the home at the time. And so that just gradually kind of drove her away from the Church. So I think that was maybe the first difficult experience and in my life was dealing with the fact that not everybody in my family was not going to Church and kind of reconciling that. Faith Is Not Blind: About how old were you when your mother started to not attend Church anymore?  Jason: About 8. Faith Is Not Blind: So in just a couple of years. How did that affect your testimony of the Gospel and of the Church? Jason: I don&#8217;t think it affected my testimony. It was more like a problem that I felt I needed to overcome. My testimony kind of grew organically. So from that first experience with missionaries. You know, you just notice as you read the scriptures or as you learn things in school and you think, “That fits nicely with the Gospel.” And so those little things kind of accumulate and I felt like that&#8217;s how my testimony grew. I also had friends. When I was in fourth grade I met a friend who is still my friend today. And his parents were strong in the Gospel and kind of took me under their wing. So I had that experience. They would read the scriptures at night, so if I stayed over there&#8211;if I stayed for dinner&#8211;then after dinner we would read scriptures. Or I&#8217;d be there for Family Home Evening with them. And so I got to see that modeled. The other thing was that they were very open about discussing issues in the Church. It was okay to talk about, “This particular thing is not going well at Church, so maybe we could do this.” It was more open in terms of the Gospel dialogue they had because they were more mature in the Church.  Faith Is Not Blind: So that sort of helped you along. Was it hard to see some of those things happening at a different house and then feel like, “Well, I wish this was happening at mine.” Jason: I think I just enjoyed it. I was glad to see it. It was nice just to have that experience and kind of see, “Oh yeah. This is how this could work.”  And, you know, “That&#8217;s not how my family is and I wish it was.” But it made it okay for me. Faith Is Not Blind: What about your sister? Aas she still going to Church with you? Jason: No. She became a teenager and she stopped coming, and then my parents separated and so my dad stopped going to Church. So for a while there, I was kind of the only one that was going to Church. But my best friend and other friends that I had were all going on missions, so it still seemed natural for me to go. My parents were supportive of me. So it wasn&#8217;t that I ever faced real opposition at home. It&#8217;s just things weren&#8217;t, you know, textbook good. So that wasn&#8217;t a problem. Faith Is Not Blind: So you went and served a mission in St Louis. How did that experience help to grow your testimony? Jason: When I got there I was really disappointed to get a call stateside. And the reason was because I felt like if I could speak a different language, I could be outside of myself. And that would somehow be a protection to me. I could have a division between me inside of myself and me as a missionary. So if people were rejecting me in another language maybe that would be okay. So when I got my call stateside, I was like, “Oh, that was really not expected.” My other friends went to Costa Rica or the Dominican Republic. My best friend’s Dad had been the president of the Spanish Branch and I could speak Spanish and I thought, “Surely I’ll go Spanish speaking like everybody else.” So that was a big surprise to go to St. Louis and then I felt a little more naked. I was like, “Okay. These are people that I can communicate very well and with,” so there was no separation there.  In my mission we had this program where you had to carry around a clipboard and you had to pretend as though you were taking a survey. It was very prescribed. And when you went to Zone Conference, the assistant to the President would say, “You have to open the screen door and put your foot inside it.” And that was a little bit forward, especially if you’re a very shy person like me. And then you had to knock exactly seven times. And then you had to say, “Hi, we&#8217;re in the neighborhood taking a survey and we wondered if you have time to answer just a few questions for us.” So that pretense that you were taking a survey would kind of get people to think, “Okay, this isn&#8217;t a vacuum cleaner salesman. They&#8217;re just taking a survey.” And then if you saw bicycles in the yard, you asked about the importance of family. Or if it looked more like a bachelor pad then you’d ask, “What&#8217;s the purpose of life?” And you’d try and get the conversation going from there and invite yourself  for a little message. But that pretense of doing a survey was very difficult for me because it felt dishonest. And because it felt dishonest, I was like, “Wow. This is different.” I didn&#8217;t expect the Church to support something that was dishonest like that, and so it kind of shook me a little bit. And instead of being shaken in an environment where I still had people around me who I could talk to or that would understand, now I was in this environment where the majority were not Mormons. Where I grew up, it was not the majority, but it was probably minority-majority&#8211;like 25% or so. But I always had a good core of people around me that I could ask. And this kind of shook me. Faith Is Not Blind: And to have missionaries your age who might not recognize the question that you have. They might just see it simply as a yes or no type issue, right? Are you obedient or not? But for you, it became an issue of Integrity. So you have support from home. Your family is really supportive, but maybe you didn’t feel like you could reach out to them in the way that you could with some of the other friends that you had. And so how did you work through that?  Jason: I think the mistake I made was that I could have just told my Mission President what I was struggling with, but I was afraid because of all the training that we had around how this was inspired and if you didn&#8217;t follow this particular program you wouldn&#8217;t be successful in obedience was the key right and so if you rub it into this this requirement to live and then you&#8217;ll be successful and if not in so that&#8217;s her to answer the question for me and I think that I would have told the mission president I&#8217;m really struggling with this and here&#8217;s why I was not brave enough to do that and then instead I started to question my own testimony and one thing that didn&#8217;t help was the ban on books so you weren&#8217;t allowed to have any books in your mission other than everything the Mission Library so I started to look for look for ways to to get reading material my became a a mail order book customer I was ordering books and keep it under my pillow and I could read when my companion was in the shower and I&#8217;m such a library I feel we would stop in and I would you know you know see what&#8217;s up with what things there were on topics of scriptures and and Mormonism and things like that you can get into things that are kind of not very supportive so I remember me to pulling out the Encyclopedia Britannica and reading about Mormonism in there was a complete description of the the temple ceremony in there that&#8217;s quite disrespectful of Joseph Smith and pointed out some things that I hadn&#8217;t known about in and its history and I remember this being really shaken to the core by then that with this issue it&#8217;s a question of integrity and that&#8217;s a really hard one because you feel that you know to your core minutes at just really internal and and so how did how did that reading help you or how did it shape you well I think that&#8217;s what I was started ordering books from the oven and reading the oven and collecting sweating Old Testament pseudepigrapha large library but what really made it would really make a difference for me was served an award and it was there was a man they were called companionships of missionaries in this word and then there was an older couple and so they had they just they just had an apartment and got to interact with them and you know they just it was interesting what they did because they just lived in this big lived in this Ward and they just found ways to lift and serve other people so I just gradually building on this Ward and they would go out track thing and things in one time we were out there we&#8217;re at their home and and found out that Elder Hanks had a love of Hugh Nibley books which I also have been enjoying and stuff poke a shared that thing and I sent you know this tracking program but what do you do when you go out trash he&#8217;s like Oh you mean the survey I don&#8217;t do that that&#8217;s dishonest and that was actually like that just flipped a life for me that yeah oh you can have you know you can have an opinion of your own you can you can you know you can let you can live with that that dissonance between you know what your mission President telling you to do in the end and I think that&#8217;s only fair really I think getting another one of my mistakes was too was to imagine that my mission president was was perfect or you know that did he couldn&#8217;t make a mistake or you know that this probably wasn&#8217;t very effective program it maybe if I had asked if I would have gotten over gotten over this problem much sooner but made it just made it a tiny search nearest that revelation of the you know you can live with that you know either present is perfect or he&#8217;s not and you know that the church is perfect or it&#8217;s not it was you know it was important so I think it&#8217;s important to see that in you know if it&#8217;s one thing I think when you know when you&#8217;re young person and you know you have a question like that it&#8217;s one thing sort of search drouin to look through books and and other things try to find that information I think that&#8217;s good and that&#8217;s part of the process but in addition to that I think it&#8217;s it&#8217;s a great thing to see a mentor to see somebody who knows something and you go oh yes someone just spoke of thought I&#8217;ve had that I felt like I couldn&#8217;t Express near and I think seeing that just a levy at some of the things iety of having that question and asking the question why am I different and then be able to see somebody you know I wouldn&#8217;t do that that&#8217;s the song Yeah that&#8217;s true in and then you know and before that time I realized I was struggling with my testimony and because of that right when I talk to my mission present testimony and he was as I will lean on mine and fake it till you make it hotter than of course that that dishonesty there it was really hard for me to deal with and I remember like trying to sneak into the Overflow away from the gym so I could kneel down and pray and try to have some meaningful meaningful you know Angel appearance or something that would that would switch this thing and the realization that I and then I came to as you know you&#8217;ve known since you were six is this church was true you&#8217;ve you&#8217;ve had that feeling in your heart and it&#8217;s it&#8217;s it would kind of be disrespectful of that for her heavenly father to send more witness then what you can already recall and you know what you would you look kind of take away from that witness and that witness has been very strong for me you know ever since just when I reflect on that and you know how did this begin yes and then I can think about things that have strengthened me as I&#8217;ve gone away gone along and good friends and then things that have the hell on to me you know they&#8217;ve helped me and I kind of live with that dissonance a little bit because I see it I study Physics and gradually just heard of migrated to mathematics but when when you heard of clothes this week that was some the most important phrase in in science isn&#8217;t Eureka it&#8217;s over that&#8217;s funny when you see something that&#8217;s not quite what you expected to see if that&#8217;s actually going to lead to that you know that&#8217;s going to lead to discovery of something new that you&#8217;re like all that didn&#8217;t fit what my model was for for the world what is Elder Haven would describe it you know that&#8217;s gap between reality and the idea was actually where where where discoveries are made and example might be relativity right so according to relativity light would have to be moving through some some medium and since sometimes it would be going as the Earth moves around soon as it will be going with the current isn&#8217;t that would be going against the current so it&#8217;d be faster or slower and you should be able to measure that and so that the experiment was designed to to be able to to measure speed of light in different directions and it turned out it was the same in all directions so that&#8217;s funny that&#8217;s not that&#8217;s not what I expected to see that&#8217;s not what&#8217;s described by Newtonian mechanics and that led to the discovery of special relativity so and that that happens over and over at science there&#8217;s no we were so excited when when data fits the model but then then you discover when you look closely I hope it doesn&#8217;t quite fit the model there&#8217;s a difference I didn&#8217;t expect that and and that&#8217;s led to you no refined or tomorrow if I think the important thing to keep in mind is that just because you know you had a model that was working and then you realized oh wait but it doesn&#8217;t describe in this particular scenario that doesn&#8217;t mean the whole model goes away right I mean we still teach Newtonian mechanics because it works in so many of our everyday situations but when things start travelling really faster are really massive then it breaks down and that&#8217;s when we have to go to to relativity to describe those things so you have to have a you get a more refined model but but the simpler model is always a special case of that Maura find model and I think if we get everything about our testimony revision of the Gospel we can start you know if we start with a pretty simple picture and then we still And then we see how there&#8217;s there&#8217;s a gap here so that&#8217;s just something else to learn about Philly and then we can not not have to have it be perfect or worried that the whole model will go away or now be useless because you discovered one little you know counterexample at 1 to look at that was missing to see something again right way to revise means to see it again it&#8217;s over with an essay entirely what we&#8217;re doing is going to work with what&#8217;s in there then so what is suggesting is there are parts of the essay that need to be working and it&#8217;s not see before I think you used to wear model yeah I realize the model needs to be expanded and pray talks about that in in pedagogy as well the expectation failure that that&#8217;s that&#8217;s really growth can occur is when what we expect what we predict to have happen doesn&#8217;t have but that&#8217;s it what you&#8217;re talking about with your parents on your mission I mean mail ordering books and and you don&#8217;t worry about being an authentic or being disobedient I mean that&#8217;s a real to real challenge to have to do that so so what am I questions is and I love how you described that using physics and it&#8217;s a really great metaphor but how do you pass that on to like your children or to students yeah but I really enjoyed what elder sister Haven had to say I think giving them that vision of theirs you know their stage 1 and their stage 2 and stage 3 or moving from being an optimist to being a pessimist to being and improve her and I think the most important thing is to be honest about you know where that is and help people to find resources that will help them.  The post Jason : How Galileo and the Scientific Method Saved My Testimony first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Natalie: Forgiving My Husband and Repairing My Family&#8211;Using the Atonement for Both Healing and Charity Natalie&#8217;s marriage taught her to see how pain and shame can cause people we love to make hurtful decisions. Hers is a narrative full of astounding maturity and forgiveness. Natalie shares what she learned during the process of her husband’s excommunication. She not only had to forgive her husband for his choices, but she had to learn how to find charity for the less-than-perfect church leaders involved in her husband’s repentance process. The post Natalie: Forgiving My Husband and Repairing My Family–Using the Atonement for Both Healing and Charity first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Heidi: Learning to See My Doubts as A Way to Grow Heidi shares how she was able to learn how to use her faith to help her gain more charity towards those she loves who have chosen to leave the Church. She talks about how to embrace love rather than judgement or criticism. The post Heidi: Learning to See My Doubts as A Way to Grow first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Casey : A Convert and Single Mom of Twins Learns to Stop Feeling Judged in Order to See That Everyone Deserves the Blessings of the Gospel As a convert who is also a young single mom of twins living in a small town, Casey had to learn to separate “church culture” from “church doctrine.” She shares how she has navigated her unique situation and how she has tried to deal with any feelings of judgement from ward members. We hope you’ll enjoy Casey’s cheerfully mature attitude about how to keep moving forward even when there isn’t complete certainty. The post Casey : A Convert and Single Mom of Twins Learns to Stop Feeling Judged in Order to See That Everyone Deserves the Blessings of the Gospel first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Erika: An Assault Victim&#8217;s Difficult and Inspiring Journey of Faith After an assault as a teenager, Erika’s view of God and herself went through drastic changes that made it difficult to find value in her previous beliefs. With maturity and honesty, Erika shares the journey that she went through to rediscover her own value as well as an improved and more complex relationship with God. Her story will give you empathy towards those who have suffered through trauma and will give hope to those who have had traumatic experiences of their own. The post Erika: An Assault Victim’s Difficult and Inspiring Journey of Faith first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.

Katrin: (Sweden) Choosing to Stay in the Church as I Watched My Family and Friends Leave As a member of the Church in Sweden, Katrin has had to make a deliberate choice to remain active in the Church as she has watched many of her family and friends choose to leave. As easy as it would have been to follow them away from the Church, Katrin realized that her love for the Lord and for His Restored Gospel outweighed any pressure to leave. With admirable serenity, Katrin shows how her strength comes from finding peace in her decision to remain active in the Church while still actively loving her family and friends who have chosen a different path. Katrin shares advice about how to love those who have chosen to leave the Church and how to be confident in your own decision to stay. The post Katrin: (Sweden) Choosing to Stay in the Church as I Watched My Family and Friends Leave first appeared on Faith is Not Blind.