For Love & Money

EPISODE OVERVIEW What if the biggest obstacle to creating change in your organisation isn't a lack of resources, effort, or intention — but the questions you're asking? That's the central challenge Hildy Gottlieb has spent 30 years answering, and it cuts right to the heart of what purpose-driven leadership actually requires. Hildy Gottlieb is a futurist, social scientist, and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a question-based framework for systems change published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review and used by nonprofit leaders, social entrepreneurs, and purpose-driven businesses around the world. Over three decades working with community organisations, Hildy and her partner Dimitri Petropolis made a confronting discovery: the tools most organisations rely on to pursue change — strategic planning, resource development, board governance — were never designed to create the world we want. They were designed to maintain the world we have. In this conversation, Hildy unpacks the deceptively simple maths behind why most change efforts stall, walks us through the seven questions of Catalytic Thinking, and makes a compelling case for why the most important thing a purpose-driven leader can do right now — in business, nonprofit, or social enterprise — is dream bigger, not smaller. Listeners can expect actionable ideas for leaders in nonprofit, social enterprise and business who want to move from reactive fixes to ambitious, inclusive change — starting with one simple shift: change the questions, change the world. WHO THIS EPISODE IS FOR This episode is for you if you're a CEO, nonprofit leader, social entrepreneur, sustainability or ESG leader, or anyone responsible for organisational strategy and culture who: Wants to move beyond incremental, reactive change toward genuine systems change Is grappling with how to embed purpose more deeply into how your organisation plans and operates Leads teams and wants to unlock more creativity, inclusion, and collective ownership Is navigating a difficult external environment and looking for a framework that builds resilience and hope alongside action Is curious about what inclusive leadership and stakeholder-centred strategy actually looks like in practice ABOUT HILDY GOTTLIEB Hildy Gottlieb is the co-founder of Creating the Future and the developer of Catalytic Thinking — a framework for social change rooted in neuroscience, mathematics, and economics. Her work has been published in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, and her SSIR article on Movements vs. Organizations was selected to open their ebook Essentials of Social Innovation: Transforming Leadership — and directly inspired the design of the Community Centric Fundraising movement. Hildy is a TEDx speaker and the author of multiple books used as texts in undergraduate and graduate programs around the world. With her partner Dimitri Petropolis, she co-founded the world's first Diaper Bank, sparking a movement across North America and earning a Points of Light Citation from President Bill Clinton. She helped develop the Masters degree program in Community Leadership at Duquesne University (pron. Dew-cáyne), where she and Dimitri taught as professors, and has lectured at institutions including UC Berkeley and the University of Waikato in New Zealand. Her forthcoming book, How to Create the Future, distils 30 years of research and demonstration projects on what actually creates lasting change. WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE Why love isn't just welcome in business — it's essential to good decision-making, and why its absence leads to what Hildy calls 'really dumb decisions' How Hildy and Dimitri moved from commercial real estate to founding a social change movement — and what values drove that journey The five-year wake-up call: why doing nonprofit strategic planning 'the right way' produced good reputations but no community change The maths that changes everything: why less bad does not equal good, and what the number line from minus one to plus one reveals about how organisations set their ambitions Why most organisations are aiming at zero — and how Catalytic Thinking reorients purpose-driven leaders toward the positive future they actually want to create The seven questions of Catalytic Thinking, grouped into Radical Inclusion, Radical Possibility, and Radical Strength Why the first question — who will be affected, and what will it take to include them — changes everything downstream in organisational planning Radical Inclusion vs. target marketing: why centering your community (not your organisation) produces fundamentally different strategy Why strategic planning inherited from the military and church charity was never designed to create systems change — and what to use instead The Amy's Organic Foods story: what a small startup learned about collaboration by calling one of the world's largest frozen food companies Why money is not a resource — and the concept of Collective Enoughness that transforms how organisations think about what they already have The AIDS coalition story: how asking 'what does good look like for the whole community?' led to orange T-shirts and a breakthrough in HIV prevention among seniors How purpose-driven leaders can hold onto hope and long-term vision while navigating a world that feels like it's moving backwards Why simultaneously resisting what's wrong and creating what's possible is the only path out of playing defence forever KEY INSIGHTS Less bad is not the same as good — and the maths proves it Hildy uses a simple number line — minus one to plus one, with zero in the middle — to expose a structural flaw in how most organisations pursue change. When success is defined as eliminating a problem, we're aiming at zero: a world without poverty, without homelessness, without illness. But zero isn't good. It's stasis. The question that unlocks genuine systems change isn't 'how do we end this bad thing?' It's 'what does a healthy, equitable, joyful community actually look like — and what will it take to create that?' Purpose-driven leaders who make this shift stop playing defence and start building something worth aiming at. The questions leaders ask determine the results organisations get Every thought is the answer to a question — including the questions we don't know we're asking. Conventional strategic planning asks 'what can we accomplish in the next two years?' or 'what can we get funded?' Those questions produce reactive, incremental plans. Catalytic Thinking asks 'what would our community look like if we were 100% successful?' — and that question produces a fundamentally different strategy. For purpose-driven leaders, the implication is significant: the questions you bring into your planning process are already shaping what's possible before anyone picks up a pen. Radical Inclusion: start by asking who isn't in the room The first question of Catalytic Thinking is: who will be affected by whatever we're considering, and what would it take for them to be part of the decision — or even to lead the direction we take? A 30-person strategic planning group making decisions that affect a million people isn't just inefficient — it's structurally designed to miss the most important knowledge available. Radical Inclusion is the opposite of target marketing: instead of narrowing your focus to who you think matters, you expand it to everyone who will be touched by your work. That shift, Hildy argues, is where love enters leadership. Money is not a resource — and reframing this unlocks abundance Money is a means of exchange for the things organisations actually need: information, expertise, relationships, space, vehicles, cooking facilities. When leaders jump straight to 'we need more funding,' they skip past the question of what they truly need — and miss the abundance that already exists in their community. Hildy calls this Collective Enoughness: together, we already have everything we need. It's only when organisations go it alone, in a scarcity mindset, that they experience lack. For nonprofit leaders and social entrepreneurs especially, this reframe changes how you approach partnerships, resource-sharing, and community engagement. Hope is a leadership practice, not a feeling In a world that feels like it's moving backwards, Hildy's challenge to purpose-driven leaders is direct: resist and react, yes — but simultaneously plan for the world you want. If all we do is play defence, we'll be playing defence forever. The current moment is part of a longer pendulum swing, and the organisations that will matter in 10 years are the ones building toward what's possible right now — not just protecting against what's wrong. Hope isn't wishful thinking. It's a practice rooted in concrete planning, causality-driven strategy, and the brain science that says creativity requires quieting the reactive, fear-driven part of the brain. RESOURCES MENTIONED Creating the Future (includes free weekly Catalytic Thinking exercises via newsletter) Hildy's forthcoming book: How to Create the Future (out late 2026) Hildy's TEDx Talk  Hildy's article in Stanford Social Innovation Review: 'Creating a Better World Means Asking Better Questions' The Catalytic Thinking fact sheet: The 7 Questions The Creating the Future podcast Community Centric Fundraising movement  CONNECT WITH HILDY Website: creatingthefuture.org Newsletter: creatingthefuture.org — sign up for free weekly Catalytic Thinking exercises Amazon: search 'Hildy Gottlieb' for full book list WORK WITH CAROLYN Carolyn Butler-Madden works with leaders and organisations on how purpose becomes a powerful driver of trust, performance, and resilience. She speaks at leadership conferences and company events about how purpose shows up where it matters most — in leadership, culture, and strategy — helping organisations grow with clarity and confidence in a changing world. Keynote speaking: Carolyn Butler-Madden Consulting: The Cause Effect  

EPISODE OVERVIEW Episode 100 is a milestone celebration — and a role reversal. This time, Carolyn Butler-Madden is in the guest seat, interviewed by purpose champion and trusted colleague Peter ter Weeme. Together they reflect on 100 episodes of For Love & Money: the insights that have surprised, some of the stories that guests have shared, and the ideas that have grown more powerful with every conversation. What began as a 12-episode companion to Carolyn’s book became something far bigger — a growing archive of proof that purpose-led business is not a trade-off but a compounding advantage. This episode draws threads across all 100 conversations: love as the unexpected connective tissue, purpose as the engine of genuine innovation, and identity as the foundation everything else is built on. ABOUT PETER TER WEEME Peter ter Weeme is one of Canada’s most respected purpose champions — a leader whose commitment to purpose in challenging industries has earned him recognition that goes well beyond titles. The Canadian Purpose Economy Project named its Purpose Champions Award in his honour: the Peter ter Weeme Purpose Champions Award. He and Carolyn collaborate through Purpose Ignition, and his decision to turn the tables and interview Carolyn for this milestone episode is a tribute to the relationship they’ve built through shared belief in what business can be. THEMES EXPLORED IN THIS EPISODE Love as the unexpected constant Why Carolyn opens every interview with the question: “Do you believe there’s a role for love in business?” How “love” arrives differently in every conversation — and yet keeps arriving The Dave Dahl story: a guest who resisted the question and answered it completely by the end What 100 episodes have clarified: when business is driven by humanity and is profitable, that is business at its absolute best Purpose and profit: proof over 100 episodes The case for purpose and profit going hand in hand rather than head-to-head Intrepid Travel: from Episode 2 to Episode 99, the most-featured guest on the show and why — on track to $1.3B, AFR Fast Growth List 2024 (#2), B Corp certified The elephant rides decision: pulling out of a highly profitable offering because it conflicted with who they were The Antarctica decision: withdrawing from a profitable tour and partnering to do it more sustainably Sarah King’s concept of “impatient capital”: purpose held to the same standard as financial targets COVID as a test: Intrepid going to zero revenue overnight, using purpose as their North Star — and rehiring most of those they’d let go Other proof points: Who Gives a Crap, Outland Denim, Future Super, Dave’s Killer Bread (sold to Flower Foods for $275M USD) Purpose as the engine of genuine innovation Good Citizens Eyewear: born around a dining table during a climate conversation — Harry Robinson (aged 8) holding a water bottle next to a pair of sunnies Koskela: an office furniture subscription model designed to solve the waste problem, applying a familiar model in a new context Pioneera (Danielle Owen Whitford): an AI-driven language model that detects burnout signals in workplace communication platforms like Slack and Teams film (Elizabeth Tyler): a film platform built to bridge a divided world — curating films that tackle complex social issues including domestic violence and coercive control Athena Manley / The Flexible CEO: identifying a two-sided problem (experienced C-suite leaders overlooked; mid-sized businesses unable to attract quality CEOs) and building a bridge Robin Power / Insitutek: civil engineering touches 70% of Australia’s emissions — using that stat as a foundation for a new kind of company built around positive impact The pattern that kept emerging: people who had been “smashed” by their own experience and came out of it determined to help others avoid the same Purpose isn’t powerful until it’s personal Sandy Blackburn (Ep 89): 15 years in South Africa, living in townships, married into a Black South African family — Ubuntu as an antidote to Western individualism, and “money as a way to buy yourself space to love” Simon Sheikh (Ep 4): founding Future Super with a question — “In 2050 my son will be 35. What’s the world going to look like? I can’t sit on my hands” Peter Baines (Ep 91): forensic investigator sent to the Bali bombings and the Boxing Day tsunami — founder of Hands Across the Water, unable to walk away from what he saw James Bartle / Outland Denim: a champion motocross rider who saw the film Taken, then witnessed sex trafficking firsthand in Cambodia — “I could not walk past this” Desmond Campbell: introducing himself in language before the interview — discovering he was descended from Vincent Lingiari of the Wave Hill Walk-Off, and how knowing that changed everything The big takeaway across 100 episodes: “If your purpose isn’t connected to who you are, I’d question whether it’s genuinely a purpose” The next chapter: Episodes 101 and beyond Carolyn’s intention for the next 100: create more space to go deeper into the guest’s personal purpose and the story that brought them there The connection to the third book: identity + purpose + action = the stories people tell about who their organisation truly is Purpose isn’t powerful until it’s personal — the single thread that runs through every episode GUESTS AND EPISODES REFERENCED Geoff Manchester, Co-founder, Intrepid Travel — Ep 2 (also featured across multiple episodes – Ep 69 Part I & Part II; Ep 99 Sara King) Dave Dahl, Creator, Dave’s Killer Bread — Ep 8 Simon Sheikh, CEO & Co-founder, Future Super — Ep 4 Sandy Blackburn, Founder Social Outcomes — Ep 89 Peter Baines, Founder, Hands Across the Water — Ep 91 Sarah King, GM of Purpose, Intrepid Travel — Ep 99 Robin Power, Founder, Insitutek & Ground Improvement — recent episode (Ep 97) Nik & Harry Robinson, Good Citizens Eyewear Sasha Titchkosky (Koskela), office furniture & sustainability Danielle Owen Whitford, Founder & CEO, Pioneera Elizabeth Tyler, Founder good.film – Ep 90 Athena Manley, The Flexible CEO – Ep 94 James Bartle, Founding CEO, Outland Denim – Ep 10 Simon Griffiths, CEO Who Gives A Crap – Ep 29 Desmond Campbell, CEO Welcome To Country – Ep 59 Peter ter Weeme – Ep 86 WORK WITH CAROLYN Book Carolyn as a keynote speaker: carolynbutlermadden.com Purpose consulting and advisory: thecauseeffect.com.au Connect with Carolyn on Linkedin Get in touch: [email protected]  

EPISODE OVERVIEW What does it look like when purpose isn't a department, a report, or a communications device — but the operating system of an entire business? Sara King is General Manager of Purpose at Intrepid Travel, one of the world's most recognised purpose-led businesses. She's responsible for delivering Intrepid's environmental, social and governance commitments across a remarkable scope: climate action, gender equality, modern slavery, reconciliation, animal welfare and the Intrepid Foundation. This is Carolyn's fourth Intrepid episode — and there's something poetic about it landing at Episode 99. The very first guest on this podcast, back at Episode 2, was Geoff Manchester, co-founder of Intrepid. Some organisations just keep giving you things worth talking about. In this conversation, Sara and Carolyn explore what it truly means to embed purpose into business strategy — not as an add-on, but as the guide for every significant decision the business makes. Including some very difficult ones. WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE Why Sara describes her role not as a purpose leader, but as a facilitator of others creating impact — and why that distinction matters How Intrepid embeds purpose into its board-level scorecard, treating impact targets with the same accountability as financial targets The Antarctica decision: why Intrepid exited a profitable product on environmental grounds — and why revenue targets went up anyway How Intrepid's shift from carbon offsetting to a decarbonisation fund is reshaping its entire business strategy and growth profile The vertically integrated model that enables Intrepid's local impact — and the India story that brought it to life Why Intrepid's Borneo family trip is a masterclass in turning environmental education into lasting memory How Intrepid created an activism trip in response to US national park funding cuts — and why it sold out in ten minutes What B Corp certification has meant for Intrepid's culture of accountability — and what the new standards will demand Why purpose-led hiring attracts over 220 applicants for a single role — and what executives need to speak fluently at Intrepid ABOUT SARA KING Sara King is Intrepid's General Manager of Purpose, responsible for delivering the company's environmental, social and governance commitments, including as a signatory to the UN Global Compact and a certified B Corp. Her remit includes Reconciliation, Modern Slavery, climate change, gender equality, animal welfare and the Intrepid Foundation. Prior to joining Intrepid, Sara held a number of roles at the International Finance Corporation, a member of the World Bank Group, including a posting to Vanuatu where she delivered a national investment incentive scheme for tourism. Sara holds a Master's in International Relations and Affairs from Macquarie University and a Graduate Certificate of Management from the UNSW Business School. ABOUT INTREPID TRAVEL Intrepid Travel has been a world leader in responsible travel for more than 35 years. The company's mission is to create positive change through the joy of travel, which comes to life on more than 900 trips designed to truly experience local culture. With its own network of country offices in 33 countries, Intrepid has unique local expertise and perspectives. B Corp certified since 2018, their not-for-profit, The Intrepid Foundation, has disbursed more than $20 million to more than 160 partners. RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED Intrepid Travel website The Intrepid Foundation website Intrepid's 2025 Integrated Annual Report The Good Times — 10 new purposeful ways to travel responsibly Sara King on LinkedIn WORK WITH CAROLYN Looking for a keynote speaker who will challenge your thinking on purpose-led leadership? Visit carolynbutlermadden.com Ready to embed purpose into the heart of your business strategy? Visit thecauseeffect.com.au