Give and Take

What does it mean to be a self in an age that won’t let you stay the same? In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with Patricia Martin about her new book Will the Future Like You?—a probing exploration of identity in a world defined by constant disruption. As technology accelerates and the pressure to adapt intensifies, Martin argues that we’ve entered an era of “hyper-reinvention,” where stability is elusive and the self can begin to feel more like a project than a reality. Together, Scott and Patricia explore the psychological and cultural costs of this new landscape: the anxiety of endless self-optimization, the erosion of rootedness, and the quiet fear that we’re always one step behind who we’re supposed to become. But they also ask whether there’s another way—one that resists the demand to endlessly reinvent and instead recovers a deeper, more grounded sense of identity. This is a thoughtful, timely conversation about who we are, who we’re becoming, and whether the future is something we shape—or something that reshapes us.Special Guest: Patricia Martin .

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with David Fitch of Northern Seminary about the fallout of the Protestant Reformation—and why it might be time to reform the Reformers. Five centuries after 1517, Protestants still celebrate courage, conscience, and clarity. But what if the Reformation also unleashed forces it couldn’t control? Fragmentation. Hyper-individualism. A faith untethered from embodied community. A church shaped more by modern politics than by the crucified Christ. From a neo-Anabaptist perspective, Fitch argues that some of the Reformers’ necessary protests hardened into new distortions—reshaping authority, redefining the church, and quietly baptizing the spirit of modernity. Scott and Dave wrestle with what was gained, what was lost, and whether Protestantism can recover a thicker, more communal, more faithful witness in a polarized age.​Special Guest: David Fitch.

On this episode of Give and Take, recorded on Mardi Gras, 2026, Scott Jones talks with Philly fitness and wellness coach Lindsay Lombardi about fasting, feasting, and metabolic flexibility. What actually happens in your body when you indulge? Is fasting a powerful tool—or just another trend? And how do you enjoy the feast without wrecking your progress? This is a conversation about discipline without deprivation, performance without obsession, and building a body—and a life—that can handle both celebration and restraint. Feast smart. Fast wisely. Live strong.Special Guest: Lindsay Lombardi.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones is joined by legal scholar and social innovator Susan Sturm to discuss her powerful new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions. Drawing on decades of work at the intersection of law, education, and organizational change, Sturm offers a hopeful yet demanding vision for how institutions can move beyond performative commitments toward genuine transformation. Their conversation explores how racism becomes embedded in institutional structures, why good intentions are not enough, and what it actually takes to create cultures of accountability, learning, and shared responsibility. Sturm challenges both individuals and organizations to imagine “what might be” if we treated racial justice not as a box to check, but as a collective practice that reshapes how we lead, decide, and belong.Special Guest: Susan Sturm.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott sits down with writer and former evangelical insider Mattie Jo Cowsert to talk about her candid and compelling new memoir, God, Sex and Rich People: A Recovering Evangelical Testimony. With honesty, humor, and a clear-eyed sense of moral urgency, Cowsert reflects on her journey through the world of American evangelicalism—and what it cost her to finally step away. Their conversation explores the entanglement of faith, power, money, and sexuality in contemporary religious culture, tracing how evangelical institutions often shape desire, silence doubt, and reward proximity to wealth and influence. Cowsert shares what it means to “recover” from evangelicalism, how her faith has been reconfigured rather than abandoned, and why telling the truth about these systems is both painful and liberating. Together, Scott and Mattie Jo wrestle with larger questions about spiritual authority, moral formation, and whether honesty and integrity are possible on the other side of disillusionment. It’s a thoughtful and unflinching conversation about belief, belonging, and the courage it takes to name what’s broken in order to imagine something better.Special Guest: Mattie Jo Cowsert.

On this special Christmas Eve episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones is joined by Professor Matthew Milliner of Wheaton College for a thoughtful and unexpected conversation about Mary—seen through Protestant eyes. Often sidelined or approached with hesitation in Protestant theology, Mary nevertheless stands at the very center of the Christmas story. Milliner, an art historian and theologian, helps recover a richer Protestant appreciation of Mary by drawing on Scripture, church history, and the visual imagination of the Christian tradition. Together, Scott and Matthew explore how Mary’s faith, obedience, and vulnerability shape a deeper understanding of the Incarnation—and why reclaiming her place need not blur confessional lines. On a night set apart for wonder and anticipation, this conversation invites listeners to slow down and reconsider the woman who first said “yes” to God, and what her story still has to teach Protestants about Christmas, discipleship, and the mystery at the heart of the Christian faith.Special Guest: Matthew J. Milliner.

It’s the holiday season and the devout are fond of reminding everyone that Jesus is the reason for the season. But what do we really know about Jesus? How reliable are the Gospel accounts—and how much can historians really know the mysterious man from Nazareth? In this episode of Give and Take, I sit down with renowned ancient historian Edward J. Watts to explore what historical methods can (and can’t) tell us about the life of Jesus. Drawing on Roman, Jewish, and early Christian sources, Watts explains how historians evaluate ancient texts, where the Gospels align with what we know of the first-century world, and where questions and tensions remain. The conversation moves beyond simplistic debates about “proof” or “myth,” offering a careful look at how memory, theology, politics, and oral tradition shaped the Gospel narratives. Throughout, Watts reflects on how historical context shapes interpretation and why Christian teaching has always been dynamic rather than fixed. The episode closes with a compelling claim: that the teachings of Jesus, understood historically and thoughtfully, continue to offer real guidance for life in the modern world. For believers, skeptics, and anyone curious about the origins of Christianity, this episode offers a clear-eyed, historically grounded discussion of the historical Jesus—and why these questions still matter today. Special Guest: Edward J. Watts.

It’s the holiday season and for many of you that means curling up on the couch with some popcorn and some candy and watching one of your favorite feel good Christmas movies. What if all those cozy Christmas movies aren’t really about comfort at all—but about desire, loss, and what we’re missing deep down inside? Today I’m joined by Todd McGowan and Ryan Engley from the Why Theory podcast to psychoanalyze our favorite holiday films. From small-town miracles to last-minute reconciliations, we’re digging into what these movies reveal about enjoyment, fantasy, and why Christmas keeps pulling us back in year after year. Grab some eggnog—this conversation might change how you watch Christmas movies forever. You can find their original Christmas movie podcast here. Special Guests: Ryan Engley and Todd McGowan.

My guest is James Fishkin, professor at Stanford University and one of the world’s leading scholars of democratic reform. His new book, Can Deliberation Cure the Ills of Democracy?, argues that polarization, mistrust, and democratic dysfunction aren’t just political problems—they’re failures of how we form opinions together. Drawing on decades of research and real-world experiments in deliberative democracy, Fishkin makes the case that when ordinary citizens are given time, information, and the chance to engage across differences, democracy can work better than we imagine. In this conversation, we explore what deliberation really means, how it differs from our current political debates, and whether it can help heal some of democracy’s deepest wounds. It was a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. I give you James Fishkin. Special Guest: James Fishkin.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott sits down with pastor, theologian, and author Mandy Smith for a deep and timely conversation about cultivating a spirit of gratitude as we head into the holiday season. For many, this time of year can feel harried, consumeristic, and stressful—an emotional whirlwind that leaves little room for reflection or joy. Mandy offers a gentle but compelling invitation to slow down, pay attention, and reclaim the simple, grounding practices that open us to gratitude. Drawing on her pastoral experience, her writing, and her own honest encounters with the pressures of the season, Mandy shares practical ways to resist the cultural rush and reconnect with what truly matters. It’s a conversation filled with warmth, wisdom, and a refreshing kind of hope—just what we need as the holidays approach. Tune in for an encouraging guide to navigating the season not with exhaustion, but with intention, wonder, and grace.Special Guest: Mandy Smith.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott sits down with Philadelphia-based fitness and wellness coach Lindsay Lombardi for a smart, practical, and totally doable guide to staying healthy during the holiday season. From navigating parties and travel to actually enjoying your favorite foods without derailing your goals, Lindsay offers strategies that go beyond quick fixes and guilt cycles. Lindsay introduces the Melt Method, a holistic approach to wellness that encompasses movement, eating, living, and thinking. She emphasizes the importance of integrating small, sustainable habits into daily life rather than adhering to intense, non-sustainable programs. They dive into mindset, daily micro-habits, realistic workouts, and how to build a holiday rhythm that supports both joy and well-being. Whether you're looking to avoid the seasonal slump or simply feel better by January 1st, this conversation delivers clarity, no encouragement, and a refreshingly balanced approach.Special Guest: Lindsay Lombardi.

In this conversation, Scott Jones and Bryce Eddy delve into the current state of the conservative movement, discussing the internal conflicts, the rise of the 'woke right', and the influence of figures like Nick Fuentes. They explore the generational divides within conservative media, the cultural tensions surrounding immigration and identity, and the implications of these dynamics for the future of conservatism.Special Guest: Bryce Eddy .

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott sits down with Sarah Hurwitz—former Obama speechwriter and bestselling author—for a sharp, lively conversation about her new book, As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us. Hurwitz takes aim at the loudest misconceptions about Jewish identity today—whether they come from bad-faith critics, confused allies, or within the community itself. With her signature mix of wit, rigor, and moral clarity, she lays out what’s at stake when a people’s story is twisted, minimized, or stolen—and how reclaiming that story can be an act of both resistance and renewal. Scott and Sarah trade insights on antisemitism, cultural belonging, spiritual hunger, and the surprising power of rediscovering an ancient tradition in a chaotic modern world. It’s crisp, candid, and deeply engaging—an episode that cuts through the noise and gets to the heart of why this conversation matters right now.Special Guest: Sarah Hurwitz.

In this episode, Scott sits down with historian and friend of the show Edward J. Watts to explore his magisterial new work, The Romans: A 2,000-Year History. From the founding myths of Romulus and Remus to the sack of Constantinople, Watts offers a sweeping narrative that refuses to let the Roman story end in the Western part of the Empire— instead, he argues for a more expansive conception of “Roman” identity that endures for 2 millennia. Stay tuned for history, ideas, and a deep dive into one of the longest and most complicated political experiments humanity has ever attempted.Special Guest: Edward J. Watts.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with Jeffrey Rosen, president of the National Constitution Center and author of the new book The Pursuit of Liberty: How Hamilton vs. Jefferson Ignited the Lasting Battle Over Power in America. Rosen explores how the clash between Alexander Hamilton’s vision of energetic government and Thomas Jefferson’s dream of individual freedom continues to define American politics. From the founding era to the present day, their competing philosophies echo through our debates over federal power, states’ rights, and the meaning of liberty itself. It’s a conversation about history, ideas, and the enduring struggle to balance freedom and order in the American experiment.Special Guest: Jeffrey Rosen.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with Colin Woodard about his latest forthcoming book, Nations Apart. Woodard maps the deep regional cultures of America, tracing their historical roots and showing how they continue to shape today’s most urgent issues—from gun violence and health disparities to the tension between individual liberty and the common good. To truly understand the roots of America’s political polarization, economic inequality, public health crises, and democratic collapse, Woodard argues, we must examine the country’s longstanding regional divides. Together, they explore why America struggles to find common ground, the risks of fragmentation, and why a renewed civic national story may be essential to protecting democracy against rising authoritarian threats. You can pre-order Nations Apart here. . The book will be released on November 4th, 2025. Special Guest: Colin Woodard.

On this episode of Give and Take, Bryce Eddy—former President of Turning Point USA and a close personal friend of Charlie Kirk—pulls back the curtain on his time with Kirk, charting Kirk’s rise and influence on youth culture. The conversation doesn’t shy away from the hot-button issues—faith, race, Trump, Christian nationalism—and asks what it really takes to have honest political dialogue in a culture wired for outrage. Scott and Bryce wrestle with the need for context—cutting through media spin and bad-faith narratives—the power of grace, and why navigating today’s political landscape is harder—and more necessary—than ever.Special Guest: Bryce Eddy .

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with novelist Carla Malden about her new book, Playback. The novel is a haunting and beautifully layered exploration of memory, loss, and reinvention—blurring the lines between past and present to show how grief reshapes identity and how the stories we tell ourselves can both hold us back and set us free. Together, Scott and Carla dive into the inspirations behind Playback, and the ways fiction can illuminate the most intimate corners of human experience.Special Guest: Carla Malden .

In this conversation, Scott Jones and J Kameron Carter explore the complex themes of whiteness, authoritarianism, and the historical context of race in America. They discuss how whiteness is not just a racial identity but a civilizational logic that has shaped political structures and ideologies. The conversation delves into the implications of Trump as a revelation of underlying authoritarian tendencies in American democracy, the role of W.E.B. Du Bois in understanding these dynamics, and the intersections of political theology with contemporary issues. They also touch on the importance of the Black church's perspective and the need for a deeper understanding of history to navigate the current political landscape.Special Guest: J. Kameron Carter.

On this episode of Give and Take, I talk with Topher McDougal, author of Gaia Wakes: Earth's Emergent Consciousness in an Age of Environmental Devastation. In the book, McDougal explores the provocative idea that the planet itself might be waking up—that Earth, long treated as a backdrop to human drama, is revealing itself as a conscious, responsive system in the midst of ecological crisis. We talk about what it means to think of the Earth as a living, even sentient, entity; how this vision challenges modern science and philosophy; and why embracing a more relational way of seeing our world could be key to surviving the environmental devastation we face. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about philosophy, ecology, and the deep stories we tell about our place in the cosmos.Special Guest: Topher McDougal.

My guest today is Coltan Scrivner, a behavioral scientist who has spent years studying the psychology of why we’re drawn to the dark, the eerie, and the unsettling. His brand-new book, Morbidly Curious, takes us deep into the strange territory of horror films, true crime, haunted houses, and all the things we’d rather pretend we don’t think about—but secretly can’t look away from. In our conversation, we explore why being curious about the morbid isn’t a flaw—it’s a fundamental part of being human. From evolutionary survival to modern entertainment, Coltan makes the case that leaning into our fascination with the macabre can actually teach us something about ourselves and the world around us. It’s a provocative, fascinating, and—yes—morbidly fun discussion.Special Guest: Coltan Scrivner .

For our 300th episode of Give and Take, we’re doing something different. Instead of hosting, Scott Jones steps into the guest chair. His friend—and former guest of the show—Jane Rosenzweig takes the reins as interviewer. Together, they look back at the journey of Give and Take: the conversations that shaped it, the surprising turns along the way, and what Scott has learned from asking (and sometimes dodging) big questions over 300 episodes. They also talk about what it’s like to live out loud on a podcast, the art of listening, and where the show might go from here. It’s a candid, celebratory, and reflective conversation you won’t want to miss.Special Guest: Jane Rosenzweig.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with author and pastor Mandy Smith to talk about her new book Confessions of an Amateur Saint. In it, Mandy offers an honest, grace-filled exploration of what it means to stumble faithfully toward holiness in an ordinary, imperfect life. Together, they unpack how spiritual growth often looks less like polished sainthood and more like vulnerability, struggle, and deep dependence on God. It’s a conversation about embracing weakness, finding freedom in honesty, and learning that sainthood is less about striving and more about surrender.Special Guest: Mandy Smith.

On this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones talks with Beatrice Marovich about her provocative new essay, “Is Theology Dying?”, published in the Spring 2025 edition of The Other Journal. Marovich, author of Sister Death: Political Theologies for Living and Dying, reflects on the state of theology in our contemporary world—its dwindling institutional presence, its surprising resilience in unexpected places, and its evolving role in public discourse. Together, they explore whether theology’s apparent decline is a death knell, a transformation, or something stranger altogether. You can find "Is Theology Dying?" here. Special Guest: Beatrice Marovich.

In this episode Scott is joined by historian and freelance journalist Molly Worthen. Her newest book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History From The Puritans To Donald Trump. They explore the themes of charisma, storytelling, and personal belief. They discuss the complexities of faith, the journey from observer to practitioner, and the role of charismatic leaders in shaping cultural narratives. Worthen shares her personal experiences of conversion and the challenges of reconciling faith with reason, while also reflecting on the importance of community and the need for meaningful stories in a chaotic world. The discussion touches on historical figures, modern political charisma, and the ongoing search for understanding in both religious and secular contexts. You can find out more about Molly and her work at her website: https://mollyworthen.com.Special Guest: Molly Worthen.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott Jones sits down with pastor and author Jack Haberer to discuss his new book, Swimming With the Sharks: Leading the Full Spectrum Church in a Red-and-Blue World. As political polarization increasingly shapes—and often divides—American congregations, Jack brings hard-earned wisdom, theological depth, and pastoral sensitivity to the challenge of leading churches across ideological lines. Drawing from decades of ministry in diverse settings, Jack shares real-world stories, practical insights, and a hopeful vision for what it means to shepherd a church that refuses to split down party lines. The conversation explores how pastors can stay rooted in the gospel while navigating cultural landmines, how churches can become spaces of faithful disagreement and spiritual growth, and why unity doesn’t have to mean uniformity. Whether you’re a church leader, a congregant, or just someone curious about faith in a polarized age, this episode offers honest reflections and tangible guidance for engaging the tension with grace and courage. Listen in and discover how to swim with the sharks—and lead with love.Special Guest: Jack Haberer .

On this episode of Give and Take, I talk with Lauren Jackson, writer of The Believing Project at The New York Times. Lauren explores the strange, beautiful, and sometimes baffling terrain of American religious life—what we believe, why we believe it, and how belief shapes the way we live. We talk about the origin of her project, the state of faith in an increasingly secular age, and why the stories we tell about belief might be more important than ever. From revival tents to deconstruction TikToks, Lauren brings a literary and deeply curious lens to the spiritual landscape. It’s a conversation about belief, doubt, devotion, and the stories that make us. In this conversation, Lauren shares her experiences growing up in the Mormon Church in Arkansas, exploring the complexities of faith, identity, and the search for meaning in a secular world. She discusses the challenges of navigating religious beliefs in modern society, the role of religion in politics, and the cultural shifts surrounding spirituality. Lauren reflects on her personal journey, the longing for connection, and the importance of understanding diverse belief systems in today's world. Takeaways Lauren grew up in the Mormon Church in Arkansas, which shaped her worldview. She describes a strong sense of identity and community within her faith. The concept of cosmology in the LDS Church offers a unique perspective on eternity. Lauren explores the crisis of belief in modern society and the search for meaning. She discusses the stagnation of secularization and the rise of alternative spiritual practices. The role of religion in politics is significant, especially in the context of the right's embrace of faith. Cultural Christianity is becoming a part of conservative identity in the U.S. Navigating religious identity in college posed challenges for Lauren. The power of belief is crucial in political movements and community building. Lauren expresses a longing for connection and understanding in her spiritual journey. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Personal Background 02:59 Growing Up Mormon in Arkansas 05:52 The Concept of Cosmology in Faith 08:39 Crisis of Belief in Modern Society 11:34 Exploring Secularization and Spiritual Alternatives 14:37 The Role of Religion in Providing Meaning 17:35 Cultural Christianity and Its Resurgence 20:45 Navigating Faith and Identity in College 23:24 The Right's Embrace of Religion and Belief 27:29 The Collision of Digital Forces and Governance 29:17 The Power of Belief in Politics 30:52. Understanding Religious Rhetoric in Political Messaging 33:49 Emotive Decision Making in Politics 36:02 Engaging with Celebrity Voices in Spirituality 39:56 The Role of Religion in Journalism 45:46 Personal Spiritual Longing and Identity 49:01 Navigating Relationships as a Public Ex-MormonSpecial Guest: Lauren Jackson.

My guest is David Litt. His newest book is It's Only Drowning: A True Story of Learning to Surf and the Search for Common Ground. Litt, a former Obama speechwriter moves to the Jersey Shore and learns to surf with the help of his brother-in-law: a tattooed, truck-driving Joe Rogan superfan. David, the Yale-educated writer with a fear of sharks, and Matt, the daredevil electrician with a shed full of surfboards, had never been close. But as America’s crises piled up and David spiraled into existential dread, he noticed that his brother-in-law was thriving. He began to suspect Matt’s favorite hobby had something to do with it. David started taking surf lessons. For months, he wiped out on waves the height of daffodils. Yet, after realizing that surfing could change him both in and out of the water, he set an audacious goal: riding a big wave in Hawaii. He searched for an expert he could trust to guide and protect him—and when he couldn’t find one, he asked Matt. Together, they set out on a journey that spanned coasts, and even continents, before taking them to Oahu’s famously dangerous North Shore. It’s Only Drowning is a laugh-out-loud love letter to surfing—and so much more. It’s an ode to embarking on adventures at any age. It’s a blueprint for becoming braver at a time when it takes courage just to read the news. Most of all, it’s the story of an unlikely friendship, one that crosses the fault lines of education, ideology, and culture tearing so many of us apart. Takeaways David discusses his struggles with inactivity during COVID. He reflects on the cultural acceptance of workaholism in America. The conversation highlights the need for better work-life balance in Washington. Surfing serves as a metaphor for embracing life's challenges. David learns from his brother-in-law's different approach to life. The importance of trying new things and embracing change is emphasized. Fear can be a powerful motivator for personal growth. Judgment can create power dynamics in relationships. The need for joy and creativity in political discourse is discussed. David reflects on the importance of empathy in understanding others. Summary In this engaging conversation, David Litt discusses his experiences during the COVID pandemic, reflecting on themes of workaholism, personal growth, and the importance of embracing fear. He shares insights from his journey of learning to surf, using it as a metaphor for navigating life's challenges. The discussion also touches on the cultural dynamics of Washington, the need for joy in political discourse, and the significance of empathy in understanding others. David emphasizes the importance of trying new things and finding balance in a chaotic world, ultimately inspiring listeners to embrace change and seek personal fulfillment. Chapters 00:00 Navigating Life Insurance and Pandemic Blues 06:47 The Impact of Workaholism on Washington 10:21 Surfing as a Means of Escape 14:39 Judgment and Power Dynamics 24:53 The Fusion of Identity and Ideology 26:21 The Comfort of Political Segregation 27:12 Surfing as a Means of Escape 28:33 Finding Joy in Life's Challenges 30:26 The Balance of Control and Surrender 32:42 Agency in a World of Uncertainty 34:28 The Importance of Trying 34:53 The Liberal Narrative and Happiness 36:38 Awareness and Empathy in Politics 38:01 The Burden of Responsibility 40:17 Finding Joy Amidst Tragedy 42:37 Embracing Fear and Uncertainty 46:03 Understanding Relationships Through Fear 50:07 The Complexity of Human Emotions 52:02 Revitalizing the Democratic Party 56:23 The Future of Political EngagementSpecial Guest: David Litt.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with essayist and cultural critic William Deresiewicz about his provocative piece Post Election, published in Salmagundi magazine. They explore the growing disaffection with the contemporary left among intellectuals, artists, and other traditional allies, and the emergence of what Deresiewicz calls the “not-left.” It's a wide-ranging conversation about politics, culture, class, and what it means to think independently in a polarized age. You can find Bill's essay here. Special Guest: William Deresiewicz.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with Justin Evans, author of The Little Book of Data. Justin has spent his career helping companies and creatives make sense of the numbers that shape our world. In his new book, he distills big ideas about data into bite-sized insights that are accessible, engaging, and surprisingly fun. We talk about how data can clarify rather than complicate, how it shapes decision-making in business and life, and why learning to read the "small print" of the digital age might just be a superpower. Whether you're a data skeptic or a spreadsheet junkie, this conversation will change how you think about the numbers that surround us.Special Guest: Justin Evans.

In this episode, I’m joined by Todd McGowan, philosopher, psychoanalytic theorist, and author of Universality and Identity Politics. We explore the central argument of his book—that true political transformation requires a return to universality, not a retreat into particular identities. Todd challenges prevailing assumptions about identity-based movements and offers a compelling alternative grounded in psychoanalytic theory and Hegelian philosophy. It’s a provocative and timely conversation about how we understand solidarity, difference, and what it means to build a more just world.

My guest is Thane Rosenbaum. His latest book, Beyond Proportionality: Israel’s Just War in Gaza, challenges prevailing narratives surrounding Israel's military actions in Gaza, arguing that accusations of disproportionate force overlook the complexities of modern urban warfare and the legal standards governing armed conflict. Drawing upon international humanitarian law, including the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Charter, Rosenbaum contends that Israel's military operations target legitimate threats such as terrorist infrastructure and weaponry, while taking measures to minimize civilian casualties. He emphasizes that the principle of proportionality should be assessed based on the intent and conduct of military actions, rather than solely on casualty figuresSpecial Guest: Thane Rosenbaum.

In this episode of Give and Take, Scott talks with Elizabeth MeLampy, author of Forget the Camel: Animals, Symbols, and the Stories We Tell. From rattlesnake roundups in Texas to lobster boils on the Maine coast, and the curious case of a certain Pennsylvanian groundhog, MeLampy explores the surprising ways animals help us build communities, confront our fears, and make meaning in a messy world. Together, they discuss how rituals involving creatures both wild and domestic reveal our deepest cultural myths—about nature, class, history, and ourselves. What do sled dogs say about heroism? How does killing a rattlesnake become a rite of regional pride? And why do we still care what a groundhog sees in February? Tune in for a conversation that’s as thought-provoking as it is unexpected.Special Guest: Elizabeth Melampy.

My guest is Kelsey Osgood. She is the author of Godstruck: Seven Women's Unexpected Journeys to Religious Conversion. Driven by a profound curiosity and anchored by intimate reporting, Godstruck is a provocative, insightful, and refreshingly nuanced exploration of both the joys and the challenges of faith that reveals what these seekers can teach all of us about modern life and our own searches for meaning.Special Guest: Kelsey Osgood.

In this episode of Give and Take, I talk with journalist and author Benyamin Cohen about one of the most bizarre and largely forgotten chapters of World War II history—when dozens of high-ranking Nazis spent the war years not in prison camps, but in luxury at a West Virginia resort. We’re talking about the Greenbrier Hotel, a grand, opulent resort nestled in the Allegheny Mountains, where captured German diplomats and their families were detained—if you can even call it that. They enjoyed gourmet meals, spa treatments, tennis matches, and more, all under the watchful but discreet eye of the U.S. government. How did this happen? Why was it kept quiet? And what does this strange story reveal about America’s role in the war, diplomacy, and the narratives we choose to remember? I address these questions and more as I discuss this surreal piece of history with Benyamin Cohen. You can find the article Benyamin Cohen wrote about the Greenbrier Hotel and its Nazi guests for The Forward here.Special Guest: Benyamin Cohen.

My guest is Tamara Dean. In the midst of the environmental crises of the early twenty-first century, Tamara Dean sought a way to live lightly on the planet. Her quest drew her to a landscape unlike any other: the Driftless area of Wisconsin, a region untouched by glaciers, marked by steep hills and deeply carved valleys, capped with forests and laced with cold, spring-fed streams. There, she confronted, in ways large and small, the challenges of meeting basic needs while facing the ravages of climate change—an experience at once soul-stirring and practical that she recounts in Shelter and Storm. If you're interested in connecting with Tamara during her book tour, you can find a list of events here. Special Guest: Tamara Dean.

In this episode of the podcast I talk with David Zahl about his new book, The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace in a Worn-Out World. In a time when burnout, anxiety, and relentless pressure are everyday companions, Zahl offers a powerful case for why grace—real, honest, unconditional grace—is more urgent than ever. Drawing on personal stories, cultural analysis, and theological insight, The Big Relief explores how grace can meet us in our exhaustion and offer rest to our restless souls. David and I dive into the heart of the book, unpacking what it means to experience grace in a culture that often demands perfection and performance.Special Guest: David Zahl.

My guest is Daniel Breyer. His debut novel is Smokebirds. In the near future, when every autumn is fire season in California, wealthy San Franciscans flee their city for smoke-free pastures. Among them are the Petersons, a family enriched by the lumber industry, who traditionally spend every August in Hawaii. This annual retreat, once a period of leisure and luxury with golf, hikes, and high-society mingling, takes a turn when 22-year-old Cole Peterson aligns himself with Aid For Earth, a climate justice organization. Cole and Aid For Earth proceed to mire the Peterson family in scandal, alleging that Peterson Lumber started a forest fire, covered up their culpability, and then profited off a government contract to extract the burnt lumber. Smokebirds is not just a narrative about the complexity of familial bonds and the facade of integrity; it is a commentary on the enduring power of privilege against the backdrop of climate justice. It captures the tension between societal expectations of accountability and the reality of an elite untouched by the demands for change, reflecting on who truly bears the cost of our environmental crises.Special Guest: Daniel Breyer.

My guest is Daniel Oppenheimer. Daniel is the host of Eminent Americans, a podcast about the writers and public intellectuals who either are key players in the American intellectual scene or who typify an important aspect of it.Special Guest: Daniel Oppenheimer .

On this episode of Give and Take, host Scott Jones sits down with Denise Hamilton to discuss her debut book, Indivisible. A visionary leader and advocate for inclusion, Hamilton explores what it truly means to bridge divides in an increasingly polarized world. Together, they delve into the urgent need for unity, the challenges of fostering meaningful conversations across differences, and how individuals can take action to create a more connected and equitable society. Tune in for an insightful and inspiring discussion on building a future where everyone belongs.Special Guest: Denise Hamilton .

In this episode of Give and Take, host Scott Jones sits down with Amanda Marcotte, author of Troll Nation and Senior Writer at Salon Magazine, for a sharp and incisive discussion on the forces reshaping American politics and culture. As Elon Musk’s influence extends beyond Silicon Valley into the political arena, and Christian Nationalism gains traction in the nation’s discourse, they examine the implications for democracy,, and the very nature of truth. At a time when disinformation thrives and political identities harden, what does it mean to seek and defend reality? It's a compelling and timely conversation that confronts some urgent questions of our political moment.Special Guest: Amanda Marcotte .

My guest is Amanda Tyler, the Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and a leading voice in the fight to uphold the separation of church and state. In her new book, How to End Christian Nationalism, Amanda lays out a compelling case against this growing movement, exposing its impact on democracy, religious freedom, and social justice. In this conversation, we explore what Christian nationalism is, why she se es it as a threat, and how she thinks you can push back against it. Whether you have a deep knowledge of Christian Nationalism or just starting to learn about it, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

My guest is Jennifer Briney. She''s the host of the widely acclaimed podcast Congressional Dish, joins us for a critical discussion on the state of American governance. Congressional Dish is dedicated to illuminating the workings of Congress, where the American people hold their greatest political power. With an unflinching, nonpartisan approach, Briney examines the actions of elected officials after the campaign season ends, revealing how their decisions shape the daily lives of citizens. In this conversation, Briney offers her insights on President Trump’s State of the Union address, the broader trajectory of the country, and whether Congress is fulfilling its role as a check on executive power.Special Guest: Jennifer Briney.

My guest is Marci Shore. Marci Shore is associate professor of history at Yale University, specializing in European intellectual history, with a focus on twentieth- and twenty-first-century Central and Eastern Europe. She earned her M.A. from the University of Toronto in 1996 and her Ph.D. from Stanford University in 2001. Shore is the translator of The Black Seasons _by Michał Głowiński and the author of several books, including _Caviar and Ashes: A Warsaw Generation’s Life and Death in Marxism, 1918-1968, The Taste of Ashes: The Afterlife of Totalitarianism in Eastern Europe, an_d The Ukrainian Night: An Intimate History of Revolution_. In the wake of a tense and unusually combative exchange between former President Donald J. Trump and President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine in the Oval Office last week, we turn to Professor Shore for insight. At a moment of geopolitical uncertainty and shifting alliances, what should Americans understand about Ukraine—its history, its struggle for sovereignty, and its place in an increasingly fractured world?Special Guest: Marci Shore.

My guest is Todd McGowan. HIs newest book is Pure Excess: Capitalism and the Commodity. In it he forges a new theory of capitalism as a system based on the production of more than what we need: pure excess. He argues that the promise of more―more wealth, more enjoyment, more opportunity, without requiring any sacrifice―is the essence of capitalism. Previous socioeconomic systems set up some form of the social good as their focus. Capitalism, however, represents a revolutionary turn away from the good and the useful toward excessive growth, which now threatens the habitability of the planet. Drawing on psychoanalytic theory, McGowan shows how the production of commodities explains the role of excess in the workings of capitalism. Capitalism and the commodity ensnare us with the image of the constant fulfillment of our desires―the seductive but unattainable promise of satisfying a longing that has no end. To challenge this system, McGowan turns to art, arguing that it can expose the psychological mechanisms that perpetuate capitalist society and reveal the need for limits. Featuring lively writing and engaging examples from film, literature, and popular culture, Pure Excess uncovers the hidden logic of capitalism―and helps us envision a noncapitalist life in a noncapitalist society.Special Guest: Todd McGowan.

My guest is Lisa Sharon Harper. She's an author, podcaster, activist, and sought after speaker. She joins me to talk about what it looks like to bear witness to the Christian faith it what feels like an increasingly post-democratic cultural moment in America.Special Guest: Lisa Sharon Harper.

My guest is Mark Oppenheimer. He returns to the show to talk about the current American religious landscape. We discuss a recent piece in The Atlantic that he calls "evangelical fear mongering." We also talk about his recent review of Jonathan Rauch's new book [Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy](https://www.amazon.com/Cross-Purposes-Christianitys-Bargain-Democracy/dp/0300273541/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=t4d15&content-id=amzn1.sym.bc3ba8d1-5076-4ab7-9ba8-a5c6211e002d&pf_rd_p=bc3ba8d1-5076-4ab7-9ba8-a5c6211e002d&pf_rd_r=134-0351661-4060607&pd_rd_wg=1LhYy&pd_rd_r=c352f3e6-6355-4103-963b-3617511be8f1&ref=aufs_ap_sc_dsk)_. We also talk about Mark's newfound love for the Philadelphia Eagles. Go Birds! You can find Mark's response to The Atlantic piece we reference here. Mark's review of Rauch's book can be found here. You can find Mark's celebration of the Eagles here. Go Birds!Special Guest: Mark Oppenheimer .

My guest is Harold Dean Trulear. Dean has served as Associate Professor of Applied Theology at Howard University School of Divinity since 2003. He joins me to talk about the future of Martin Luther King's dream in Donald Trump's America.Special Guest: Harold Dean Trulear.

My guest is Shenequa Golding. She doesn’t aim to speak for all Black women. They're too vast, too vibrant, and too complicated. As an adult, Golding begins to own her boldness, but growing up, she found herself “kind of in the middle,” fluctuating between not being the fly kid or the overachiever. Her debut collection of essays, A Black Girl in the Middle, taps into life’s wins and losses, representing the middle ground for Black girls and women. Golding packs humor, curiosity, honesty, anger, and ultimately acceptance in 12 essays spanning her life in Queens, NY, as a first-generation Jamaican American. She breaks down the 10 levels of Black Girl Math, from the hard glare to responses reserved for unfaithful boyfriends. She comes to terms with and heals from fraught relationships with her father, friends, and romantic partners. She takes the devastating news that she’s a Black girl with a “flat ass” in stride, and adds squats to her routine, eventually. From a harrowing encounter in a hotel room leading her to explore celibacy (for now) to embracing rather than fearing the “Milli Vanilli” of emotions in hurt and anger, Golding embraces everything she’s learned with wit, heart, and humility. A Black Girl in the Middle is both an acknowledgment of the complexity and pride of not always fitting in and validation of what Black girlhood and womanhood can be.Special Guest: Shenequa Golding.

My guest is Mark Oppenheimer. In a recent NY Times piece David Brooks describes his own complex journey of faith. Mark Oppenheimer has written a piece questioning why David Brooks consistently continues to refer to himself as a Jew, despite affirming the central tenets of the Christian faith. Mark returns to the show to discuss his piece and what it tells us about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. You can find David Brooks' piece "The Shock of Faith: It's Nothing Like I Thought It Would Be" here. You can find Mark's response here. Special Guest: Mark Oppenheimer .