Insurance Banter with Burand & Borup

Episode Summary: Chris and Paul are joined by Jerry Messick of Unity Captive to explore the realities of captive insurance—beyond the polished sales pitches. They break down when captives are a powerful tool for risk management and profitability—and when they can lead to serious financial and regulatory trouble.Captive insurance is often sold as a silver bullet—but is it a smart risk strategy or a ticking time bomb? In this episode, we cut through the hype and unpack what actually makes captives work… and what causes them to fail.From IRS scrutiny to due diligence mistakes, this conversation highlights the difference between using captives strategically versus chasing tax-driven schemes. If you’ve ever considered a captive (or advise clients who have), this episode offers a grounded, experience-driven perspective you won’t hear in most presentations.Key Takeaways: Captives work best as a risk management strategy—not a tax play Why loss ratios and risk profiles determine captive success  The importance of due diligence (on both the model AND the people selling it) Common reasons captives fail—including IRS challenges and poor structuring How owning your own risk changes behavior and improves outcomes  Why more than 50% of commercial premiums are shifting to alternative markets The growing role of group captives and long-term client retention strategiesChapters / Timestamps: (00:00) Introduction & guest background: Jerry Messick  (01:00) What Unity Captive does & industry experience  (02:30) The reality of captives: when they work vs. when they don’t  (04:20) Why many captives fail (and IRS concerns)  (05:00) Due diligence: questions you must ask before joining a captive  (06:50) Captives as true risk ownership—not risk transfer  (08:00) Improving loss control & operational behavior  (10:15) Industry trends: growth of alternative risk markets  (11:40) Group captives and long-term strategy  (13:00) The future of the insurance industry & attracting new talent  (16:00) Why insurance careers are more dynamic than you think  (17:20) Final thoughts: integrity and client-first mindset Contact: 🌐 Unity Captive: https://unitycaptive.com 📞 Phone: 405-550-2651  

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and Paul sit down with Greg Burton, former CEO of BrickStreet Insurance, to unpack one of the most remarkable turnaround stories in the insurance industry.Greg shares how he stepped into a failing workers’ compensation system in West Virginia—losing $1 million per day with billions in unfunded liabilities—and helped lead its transformation into a successful private insurance company. Key Topics Covered:The Breaking Point: What a collapsing state-run system looks like from the inside Leadership in Crisis: How to step into chaos and create clarity Cultural Transformation: Shifting mindset from “claimant-first” to “customer-first” Privatization Decision: Why moving from government to private market was essential Building From Scratch: Launching a fully operational insurance company in just 9 months People Over Process: Empowering existing employees and bringing in the right talent Lasting Impact: How reforms reduced workers’ comp rates by over 80% and reshaped a state’s economy 

The insurance industry markets expertise, but in many states the legal standard of care says something else: agents often aren’t required to advise clients what to buy, and the insured is expected to read and understand the policy anyway. That’s not professionalism. That’s outsourcing risk to the least-informed party in the transaction.Chris and Paul go straight at the contradiction: we mandate CE while tolerating an order-taker standard that protects mediocrity and punishes agents who do the job correctly. They draw a hard line between “real education” and cheap CE mills, explain how the system incentivizes underinsurance, and break down why the fear of higher standards driving more E&O claims doesn’t hold up in practice. This episode challenges the industry’s favorite fiction: that the current model is defensible because “that’s how it’s always been.”

In today’s episode, Chris sits down with Jon Persky (Optimum Performance Solutions) to unpack what’s actually happening in the insurance agency M&A market—and what agency owners keep getting wrong when buyers come knocking.You’ll also hear a blunt breakdown of the biggest risk in today’s deals: taking part of the purchase price in buyer stock—especially when it’s not liquid, not publicly traded, and can come with restrictions most sellers don’t fully understand.You can reach Jon through his website at https://www.optperform.com/

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Paula and Chris welcome back Mark Robinson for a practical conversation on how agents and brokers should respond to Department of Insurance (DOI) consumer complaints—and why these letters should be taken seriously, even when the complaint feels minor or “garden variety.” What You’ll LearnWhat a Department of Insurance complaint actually is (and what it’s not)Why agents shouldn’t panic, but must respond seriously and quicklyHow DOI complaint responses can expose broader issues like licensing or premium handlingThe biggest mistakes agencies make when responding to regulatorsHow fees and disclosure failures can become major complaint triggersWhen you should involve an attorney—and when you may not need onePractical steps to reduce complaints before they ever get filedIf you'd like to connect with Mark, his contact information can be found here:https://www.mrllp.com/

In this episode, we sit down with one of the most effective insurance lobbyists in the industry to talk about why insurance keeps losing the public narrative, why honesty and expertise matter more than money, and what happens when even insurance executives stop believing in their own product.Show NotesWhy insurance lobbying keeps losing: Too few resources, too much territory, and “hired-gun” lobbyists who don’t actually understand how insurance works.The two things that make a lobbyist effective: Be the real expert in the room—and be scrupulously honest (because “you only get to lie once”).The bigger threat than tort reform: Public trust + affordability. When even insurance executives say they’ll drop homeowners coverage, the industry is headed toward adverse selection and a consumer backlash—unless carriers change their mindset and show up with leadership, not silence.

Chris and Paul are joined by Jim Caragher from the CIB Group (https://thecibgroup.com/) to chat about producer recruitment.  Producers don’t fail—systems do. Why agencies that rely on luck and “shovel-ready” hires struggle, while those with real sales playbooks see 70%+ success rates.Why recruiting outside insurance works. How proven B2B salespeople from other industries thrive when given structure, mentorship, and a clear path to renewals and residual income.Building producers builds agency value. How validated next-gen producers dramatically increase agency valuation and attract private equity buyers.

Chris and Paul are Joined by Jeff Mango from AM Best.  They discuss the growth of MGAs/MGUs and other Delegated Underwriting Authority entities in the market.  Those types of operations now make up a material portion of the insurance distribution network and this discussion will help you better understand the shifts in the marketplace.  

Chris and Paul are joined by Frank Pennachio to discuss the often unrecognized risk in self-funded health plans and his new book The Silent Danger. 

Chris and Paul welcome Don Grimm from Archer Actuarial to the podcast.They discuss what impact, both direct and indirect,  the recent tariffs will have on the insurance industry.  If you'd like more information on the educational offerings Don mentioned, please feel free to reach out directly to him:(215) [email protected]://archeractuarial.com/

Insurance policies are long and complex.  At the time of a claim, one section is especially important, understanding your duties as a policyholder.  Mara Essick from Merlin Law Group joins Chris and Paul to talk about some of those responsibilities and their importance.  You can learn more about Mara here: https://www.merlinlawgroup.com/attorneys/mara-essick-esq/Mara's article discussed in the podcast can be found here: https://www.propertyinsurancecoveragelaw.com/blog/avoid-claim-denials/

Jason Bogart and Bo Eaton from Deep Customer Connections join the podcast to talk about underwriting flexibility...what it is, what carriers get wrong when developing go to market strategies, and more!

Chris and Paul discuss the recent whitepaper disclosure in the Florida Legislature along with the current state of the homeowners market.  A few key topics: Are people served better when a regulator reduces standards?Is the industry living up to it's responsibility to the public?The rising trend of people not buying property coverage

Chris and Paul are joined by Katherine Hempstead.  They discuss her book Uncovered: The Story of Insurance in America.The conversation touches on the NAIC, The Affordable Care Act, Gaps between what people want to buy and what is actually offered in the market place, and why people have hostile attitudes against insurance companies.Katherine has graciously provided the following discount code (that works at Oxford):ASFLYQ6 Links to buy book:https://www.amazon.com/Tolerance-Risk-Hempstead/dp/019009415Xhttps://academic.oup.com/book/57381Finally, you can find more about Kathrine here:  https://www.katherine-hempstead.org/Thanks for listening and we'll talk with you next time!  

Chris and Paul caught up in February to discuss the state of the insurance market, where the inefficiencies are, and what needs to be addressed to make improvements going forward.  Also, this is the first episode where we used AI to edit...let us know what you think!

Chris and Paul are joined by Brad Roblin, the founder/owner of Pro Workforce Performance.They discuss how Brad took the tools he learned in professional baseball to improve every industry, including yours!How can a business improve their human factors, no matter the environment? What can a business owner be game planning with their risk management team to give them a competitive edge?All this plus our first round of listener feedback.  If you'd like to have an exploratory conversation with Brad, he can be reached at [email protected].    

We are back!  2025 has been busier than ever and we have a solid pipeline of episodes that are sure to make you better insurance professionals.Chris and Paul are joined by Jim Gardner from ViewSpection to talk about how agencies can become more proactive in the inspection process.  They discuss how to mitigate premium increases, help clients at the time of a claim, and improve relationships with carriers.  They also address how underwriters can improve their workflow and documentation.This year, we want to hear from you!  Please send your feedback and stories to [email protected].  We'd love to have you...or your story...featured on a future podcast.Thanks for listening!  

Chris and Paul are welcome Bill Teubel to the podcast to discuss Producer/Employee development.The 'evergreen' problem in the insurance industry is talent development and Bill has developed the best platform that Chris and Paul have seen.  They explore how to purposefully develop people in your organization.   Bill's platform can truly transform your organization with REAL and ACTIONABLE development plans. You can learn more by contacting Bill at [email protected] 

Chris and Paul review 2024 and go out on a limb to prognosticate on what 2025 has in store for the insurance industry. 

Chris and Paul are joined by Mary Guzman from Crown Jewel Insurance.They discuss:What is a trade secretWhy the most valuable asset many businesses have isn't covered in the tradtional marketplaceThe risks and costs many of your clients and prospects have when it comes to trade secretsYou can learn more about Mary and her firm at www.crownjewelinsurance.com.  Shoot them an email at [email protected] to learn more.  

Don Phin joins Insurance Banter to chat about HR issues in agencies.  Memorable quotes include:A fair days wage isn't what you say it is...it's what the market says it isYou need to move from expectations to agreementsPut water cooler conversations on the calendar for remote employeesIf you'd like to get in touch with Don, please check out his website at https://www.donphin.com/.  

Chris Boggs joins Insurance Banter to talk about:As an agent, is it better to advise on coverage or price?Why he chose to move into consultingThe current state of continuing educationand moreChris built a long career as an agent, a carrier employee, an educator and an insurance book author.  No matter how long you've been in the industry, you will gain some valuable insight from this conversation! 

Adam Klug of Specialized Recruiting Group joins Chris and Paul to talk about:Identifying the right talent for your teamWhy an Employee Value Proposition is so valuableCreative ways to find the right talent for your team. 

Chris and Paul are joined by Skylar Romines to discuss:What prompted her to make the move from brokerage to owner's representativeThe current challenges Skylar sees in the insurance market landscapeHow she thinks the industry can best serve people going forwardSkylar is the Founder of ATW Advisors, an independent risk advisory and owner's insurance rep firm.  You can find out more here: https://atwadvisors.com/

Chris and Paul had a great discussion with Russ Banham.  The conversation was wide ranging and VERY interesting.Where else will you find a conversation touching on Meatballs (the movie), Hank Greenberg from AIG, the importance of a mentor, and Russia?Who knew insurance could be involved with spy-craft, popular culture, Broadway, the Pulitzer Prize, climate change, and a bill you'll be getting in the mailbox sometime soon?  Russ started his association with the insurance industry as a reporter for the Journal of Commerce back when newspapers were actually a thing!This is a wide ranging conversation.  Surprisingly, you can learn why specialization is important for your career and start thinking about why the industry is headed for regulatory problems if they don't start doing things differently...all in the same episode.  We hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did.If you want to learn more about Russ, please check him out at https://www.russbanham.com 

Mark Robinson from Michelman & Robinson, LLP joins Chris and Paul again to take a deep dive into Carrier / Agency Agreements.  How do you know the agreement your about to sign will help your business in the long term?  What are the limitations it places on the authority of both parties?  As an agency, the value of your business is closely tied to the expirations (or X-Dates) of your clients.  How is that section addressed in the agreement?  Finally, they talk about a few common pitfalls to look out for.If you'd like to engage with Mark's firm, please visit the website at www.mrllp.com.  If you need to get in touch with Chris for other consulting issues, he can be found in cyberspace at www.burand-associates.com.Finally, if you are on X (formerly known as Twitter), please give us a follow at https://x.com/insurancebanter...we are old dogs trying to learn new tricks and would love for our friends to come along for the journey!

What is holding you back as a salesperson and how you can overcome the roadblock(s) and experience greater success?Chris and Paul are joined by Connie Kadansky to explore this topic in greater detail.If you'd like to contact Connie, she can be reached at:[email protected](602) 380-5431

Chris and Paul are happy to be joined by Greg Lang from Reinsurance and Insurance Network (RAIN), LLC (http://rainllc.com) to continue the conversation around Captive Insurance.  Greg is an instructor for an upcoming course presented by the International Center for Captive Insurance Education (https://iccie.org/course-catalog/reinsurance-and-other-risk-transfer-mechanisms).This discussion focused on fronting carriers in the captive insurance space.  They discussed what role fronting carriers fill, risks and costs involved, general timelines, and current examples in the marketplace.  

Fred Fisher returns to discuss absolute exclusions.  Have a copy of your E&O policy ready if you are an insurance agent as you listen to this one!  You may want to negotiate new terms and conditions! Do absolute exclusions negate the traditional maxims of insurance like:Reasonable expectationContracts of adhesionCoverage should be broad and exclusions narrowA very insightful discussion that just may change how you view the industry...no matter where you sit!   

Chris and Paul are excited to be joined by Fred Fisher to discuss how Independent Agencies can compete with the "Big Boys".The three topics they explore: Why is this a problem for Independents? What is the Difference in the approach How can independents compete?If you want to compete with the "Big Boys"...this is the episode for you!  

Chris and Paul welcome back Mike Strakhov to discuss how the hard market has impacted agency financing.  You can reach Mike at  [email protected]

Chris and Paul are joined by Mark Angelucci, SVP and Head of the Specialty Lines division at Utica National.  Mark shares trends, insights, and loss control tips on how agencies can avoid E&O claims...plus, he tells some great stories.  

Chris and Paul are joined by Frank Noyes from Noyes Insurance Consulting.  The conversation focuses on how an agency can create an insurance program.  They discuss carrier/agency rapport, the value of creditable data, and common expectations around what success looks like,If you'd like to follow up with Frank, he can be reached at (804) 205-0548 and at www.noyesinsuranceconsulting.com. 

Chris, Paul, and Connie from Exceptional Sales discuss the root causes of sales call reluctance and the need for a more strategic and research-based approach to sales. They also highlight the limitations of automated digital tools and the importance of developing strong professional relationships for referrals and support. Lastly, they emphasized the importance of effective communication, particularly in delivering bad news to clients, and the promising market conditions for new producers.

Anurag Shah from Aureus Analytics joins Chris and Paul to discuss the proper usage of AI.  What role to ethics play, how is accountability measured but most of all they focus on how it is a tool to be used by humans, and NOT a substitute for humans.  Highlights include a discussion around automation vs. analytics vs. AI.They touch on the regulatory environment, or lack thereof.  Finally, Chris offers his first movie recommendation...and not to be outdone Anurag gives his his recommendation for how to take advantage of your Netflix subscription this month by watching a specific documentary!  

Bob Ford joins Chris and Paul to continue the conversation around behavioral styles.  In this episode they explore how to improve agency management thorough awareness of different behavioral styles among staff members.  

Chris and Paul are joined by Jason Bogart from Deep Customer Connections to chat about:What portions of the DCC Index are most correlated with growthExpense considerations when evaluating growth strategies What problems underwriting inconsistency creates 

Chris and Paul are joined by Greg Lang from RAIN, LLC.  They discuss how reinsurance impacts captives, MGA's, program managers, and the alternative risk transfer market.  They review the changes in this segment of the industry and explore what is to come and how an agent can take advantage of the innovations.   

Chris and Paul are joined by Piers Dormeyer from EagleView to discuss how carriers and agents can address economic headwinds (along with an aging workforce) to operate more efficiently in this challenging marketplace.  

Chris and Paul talk about agency appraisals and the ethics involved in valuing an agency.  While the M&A market has slowed, there are still a significant number of transactions.  What should you be on the lookout for when valuing your agency?  Plus, this is Episode 50!  Quite a milestone.  

Anurag from Aureus Analytics joins Chris and Paul for a follow up discussion on AI.  The conversation dives into how to grow your agency using AI.  The discuss the difference between the 'neat to have' and what can really drive improvement in your organization.  

Chris and Paul chat about the current state of the industry and what may be causing all the craziness we are experiencing 

Chris and Paul are joined by Anurag Shah of Aureus Analytics, where they discuss:AI Implementation and Its Potential Benefits AI: Myths vs. Reality AI's Potential in Insurance Industry 

It seems like the insurance industry is undergoing a dramatic shift in distribution, with a new MGA popping up almost every day.Mark Robinson joins Chris and Paul to talk about what a Managing General Agent is, what to look for in contracts, and some things to think about if you are considering starting or doing business with a MGA.

Bob returns to talk in more depth about how producers can increase their hit ratio by understanding the behavioral styles of their clients and prospects.  We discuss what to look for and how to identify the best approach to use in the first two minutes of a conversation.  

Chris and Paul are joined by Greg Williams, Senior Director of Analytics at AM Best.This episode focuses on the increased role of the Delegated Underwriting / Managing General Agent and the headwinds and tailwinds the industry is currently facing.  Greg covers recent market dynamics that led AM Best to begin assessing the strength of MGA’s – including increased interest in demonstrating transparency and accountability to capacity providers, investors, intermediaries and regulators.  Finally, Greg provides an overview of the Performance Assessment and explains how AM Best evaluates Delegated Underwriters/MGAs and provides some recent examples.

Chris and Paul are joined by Chris Williams who recently sold his agency and 'eased' into retirement.  Chris W. shares his story, tells listeners what he did right and what he would do differently with the benefit of hindsight.  It is a perspective you don't normally have when thinking about a sale or the transition to retirement.  

Chris and Paul discuss some plausible reasons for the current hard market...and it has nothing to do with reinsurance availability or pricing! 

Chris and Paul are joined by Brant and Matt of Curbow Law to discuss key issues surrounding the buying/selling of an insurance agency.What are the key transaction terms and documents you should be aware of?How do you best share information between parties?Why should you rely on a legal specialist rather than just use your trusted legal provider?Join us to find the answers to these questions on this installment of Insurance Banter.  

In this episode, Chris and Paul are joined by Bob Ford to discuss behavioral styles in selling. How does a producer gain trust?  How do successful salespeople adapt in an ever changing environment?  Why doesn't the Golden Rule work in insurance sales?  Find out the answers to these questions (and more) in our 40th episode!