Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity

In the 1990s, Janyce Boynton was working as a speech and language clinician when she started using facilitated communication with a young non-speaking girl, Betsy. Through facilitated communication, Betsy started to make allegations about abuse at home. These were reported to the authorities and things quickly started to escalate. What happened next changed the course of Janyce’s life. Betsy was removed from her home and court proceedings were started. As part of the court process, controlled testing of facilitated communication was ordered by the judge. The results were clear. Betsy was not the author of the allegations. They were influenced by Janyce, without her being aware of it. Their story is told in the Prisoners of Silence documentary.In this fascinating interview, Janyce tells us what happened, and how she made the fateful decision to turn towards the evidence. She told us why she has felt that it’s imperative to continue sharing her story and informing people about the harm that can be done by facilitated communication. She explains how the illusion of facilitated communication is created and why it can appear so compelling. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Aleida Verhoeven understands disability from many angles. She’s autistic herself and also has other disabilities. But in addition, she works in Australia’s National Disability Insurance Scheme as the equivalent of a case manager, primarily with autistic people. She tells us about the situation in Australia, where, as she puts it, they have some of the highest disability spend in the world, yet some of the poorest outcomes. We discuss the reasons why that might be, and Aleida explained how she sees a misalignment between what autistic people need and what is being provided. Aleida has some very forthright opinions and this conversation was an insight for Dani and I into how things work over the other side of the world. We hope you enjoy this episode.Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to hear about each new episode. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Richard has spent his whole career working with autistic adults. He initially worked in a diagnostic assessment service before moving into his current role in an intensive support team for autistic adults. He is a prolific poster in online discussions about neurodiversity, and has written about some of this on his Substack.In this interview, Richard explained how his experience has enabled him to look beneath behaviour and the formal diagnostic criteria to identify underlying processes common amongst autistic people. He tells us how he thinks that those who criticise concepts such as masking miss the serious impact on autistic people’s lives.He talks about how he feels that better awareness and less stigma has enabled more people to come forward for diagnostic assessment, and how he sees this as a positive change. Join Naomi, Richard and I as we wrestle with some of the big questions, such as whether masking is unique to autism, the specificity and reliability of an autism diagnosis, how funding and resources should be allocated and whether we should be talking about diagnosis at all. We certainly don’t agree on everything, but I do think we manage to hold space for different perspectives and put some of the popular ideas in neurodiversity discourse under the spotlight. Do let us know what this episode brings up for you.Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support the podcast. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

When Chrissie’s son Daniel started school, the teacher asked her on first day why they had not told her that he had an emotional disability. Later, he explained that he was terrified of being inside tall buildings. He was scared and so he hid under tables. Daniel found school expectations hard, and school found it hard to manage Daniel. The school needed extra support and wanted to refer him for a diagnostic assessment. Chrissie and her husband Paul could see that everyone needed more help and extra funding - but they didn’t want to give Daniel a label that he would have no choice but to carry with him for life. Since then, Chrissie and her family have been navigating education and social systems that increasingly understand the world in what they consider to be binary or overly simplistic ways. She describes here the difficult position of trying to be an appreciative friend to other parents and thoughtful psychologist whilst opposing the languages and practices that risk defining children and reducing possibilities for wellbeing and change.Daniel is now in his twenties, and Chrissie tells us how they have found ways through the system for him. She also told us how she thinks this has been for Daniel, and how it has affected how he sees himself. She is talking to us with his consent. This is a really unusual story and we hope you’ll find it interesting. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Does it help, being a psychologist when your children have additional needs? Or can it make things more complicated? This week we are delighted to talk to Rosie Gilderthorp. Rosie has worked in forensic and learning disabilities services and she now runs the Psychology Business School, which helps other psychologists to find their way in private practice as well as working clinically. Two of her children are AuDHD and the third is in the process of assessment. She is a military wife, which means that much of the time she is parenting solo. These different strands of her life interact and inform each other, sometimes in unexpected ways. Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to hear about new episodes.In this honest and wide-ranging interview, she tells us about her professional and personal journeys, and how being a parent to her children has changed her life and influenced her career. She tells us about her concerns about the concept of masking, and how she thinks it can be misused to dismiss children’s distress. Rosie writes: If this conversation resonated, you can find more about me on Substack. Each week I share the unfiltered reality of raising AuDHD kids alongside practical psychological insight you can actually use. My book on building a life you love through the challenges of parenting children with additional needs comes out next year, and Substack is where you'll get the earliest updates. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Guardian readers were asked last week to ask themselves if their parents might be neurodivergent. Apparently up to 97% of autistic adults over the age of 60 are undiagnosed, and the Guardian is here to guide their adult children in how to broach the subject. That is, by our calculations, 194,000 people. So what does this mean? What is the research this is drawing on and what are the assumptions being made? Would we all be happier if everyone who could receive a diagnosis had one? In this new quick turn-around episode, Dani and Naomi unpack the headlines and ask whether we should all be encouraging our parents to get onto a neurodevelopmental waiting list. Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the psychology of neurodiversity! Subscribe for free to support the podcast. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Have you noticed that the way some people talk about neurodiversity has changed? Have you heard that diagnostic language is violent, that neurodivergent people are oppressed by neuronormative standards and that it’s ableist to suggest that it’s preferable to be non-disabled, if that’s an option? Have you noticed strange similarities in the way that disability, race and gender are discussed, and wondered why that might be?Our guest this week is Helen Pluckrose, a social and cultural commentator and co-author of the bestselling book, Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender and Identity - and Why This Harms Everybody and she’s here to explain what’s going on from her perspective. In this fascinating interview Helen explains how the dogma of critical social justice theory has spread through disability studies and affects the way that many think about and research neurodiversity. She traces the evolution of these ideas from postmodernism to activist academic circles today - and from there into online conversations. We discuss the kernels of truth which underpin these narratives, and why she thinks that activist scholarship has the potential to do harm. We bring it back to neurodiversity and what this means in real life. Helen has many bold and interesting ideas and we can’t wait to hear what you make of them. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

This week’s guest is Dr Alison Flynn, a clinical psychologist who has specialised in working in neurodevelopmental and forensic services. She told us of her strong sense of professional responsibility, particularly when it comes to working with people who have been poorly served by the systems that were supposed to care for them. We talk about the need to have robust discussions about issues such as diagnosis, whilst also recognising the potential implications of such conversations. We discuss the need to ensure that we do not remove the structures which people use to get support before there are other options in place. Alison talks to us about the history of harm from psychology towards neurodivergent people, and how this might shape the way people show up in this space. We cover many topics, including the challenges faced by people trying to navigate systems of support, the school to prison pipeline, the inherent political nature of the work that we do as clinical psychologists, and what it means to be neuroaffirmitive. Alison is a wealth of knowledge and we think you’ll agree this is a lively and interesting discussion. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

This week, we speak to Jonathan Machnee, an autistic computer engineer and independent autism researcher from Canada.Jon got in touch after the response to our episode with Uta Frith because he is particularly interested in the online dynamics around autism and neurodiversity. Jon is the host of Christianity on The Spectrum, a long form podcast where he talks to people about the intersection of Christianity and autism, and many other things besides.In our discussion, Jon reflects on his own relationship with autism, his experiences as part of the autistic self-advocacy community, and what he has learnt from years of ethnographic research into what autistic people say online.Jon has a real clarity of thought and depth of experience. We cover a wide range of topics, including the double empathy problem, the heightened sense of social justice often associated with autism, masking, and the concept of the autism spectrum itself.Do let us know what Jon’s interview brings up for you, and any reflections you would like to share with other listeners. We think this one could be a great conversation starter. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Dan Lovesey is an autistic researcher, academic and creative who is part of the disability and inclusion team at The University of Law, UK. He has recently completed his PhD and has written a book about neurodiversity and the creative industries, Creative Minds, Divergent Paths. Dan got in touch with us because he was concerned about the lack of balance he saw in conversations about neurodiversity. He felt that lived experience expertise was being presented in some cases as if it applied to everyone and thought that this had the potential to do harm. In this frank conversation, Dan explained why he thinks that lived experience expertise isn’t treated in the same way as academic or clinical expertise, and how this can lead to ideas not being adequately tested or challenged. He says there’s a difference between being an autistic expert, and an expert in autism, and that it’s crucial that we make that distinction. Enjoy the show. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Dr Chris Bagley is a psychologist, teacher, writer and musician with an interest in the evolution of ideas, educational transformation and systems change. He is Director of Research at social enterprise, States of Mind, Co-Director at Square Peg CIC and a Tutor at The Institute of Education, University College London.I (Naomi) first met Chris several years ago, as we were both critiquing the education system and trying to imagine ways that education could be different. I was immediately struck by how clearly Chris sees the problems in the school system and how it (doesn’t) work for the most marginalised young people. He is always thinking about the effect of education on the children who are labelled the failures - who could also be seen as those whom school has failed. In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Chris tells us about being a psychologist in the school system, and how he feels that it pathologises the young people who don’t fit its requirements. He explains how the medical model and our model of education interact to protect each other. Children’s distress about school is labelled and treated as a medical problem, meaning that we don’t ask important questions about whether our education system is really fit for purpose. His first book, States of Mind, written with Bea Herbert, was recently published and is available from all good booksellers. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Dr Danielle Drinkwater is a clinical psychologist and co-host of Let’s Talk Neurosense. In this interview-with-the-hosts episode, Dani talks about her path into clinical psychology and why she wanted to work with children. She explains her clinical experience working as a neurodevelopmental diagnostician, and explains why she found herself increasingly uncomfortable with her part in the diagnostic process. She asked questions, but found it hard to get answers she was happy with. This is an unusually honest insight into the mind of a diagnosing clinician. We hope that you enjoy it. Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Neurosense: the Psychology of Neurodiversity. Subscribe for free to hear about new episodes as they come out. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

We’ve released ten episodes of Let’s Talk Neurosense. We’ve interviewed ten different people, all with quite different perspectives on neurodiversity. It’s been a bit of a rollercoaster, and we’ve learnt a lot along the way. Now we’d really like to know if you have questions you’d like us to answer - or people you’d like us to talk to in upcoming seasons. Please let us know in the comments. And please tell other people about us if you’ve enjoyed listening to season 1. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

This week, Dani sits down with Naomi to find out about her journey into clinical psychology, her relationship to the topic of neurodiversity, her experiences of home schooling her two children, and some of the reasons she wanted to start this podcast. They reflect on some of the responses that Naomi has received since speaking out about the things that concern her online, as well as some of the ways that she tries to stay grounded and connected to what matters. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Children across the UK are waiting for years in order to get a diagnosis of autism or ADHD. And in the meantime, it can be impossible for their families to get the help that they need. Some of them are stuck; without a diagnosis they cannot access support, but waiting lists means that needs are going unmet.Subscribe for free to be the first to hear about our new podcast episodesIn Portsmouth, they decided to do something about this. Their Neurodiversity Team provides services and support for 0-19 year olds across the city, without requiring a diagnosis. In consultation with local families, they created a Neurodiversity Profiling tool which aims to identify a young person’s needs so that support can be offered quickly. The whole city was reorganised along needs-led lines - a diagnosis is not used to limit access to education or health services. This exists alongside the diagnostic pathway which some families still go down. Claire Mason is the Neurodiversity Service Lead in Portsmouth, and in this interview she told us all about how it works. She explained how the profiling tool works, what it means in practice and the feedback they’ve had, both negative and positive. If you want to know more about the Portsmouth needs-led approach, click here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

When we asked Fabian what his autism diagnosis meant to him, he didn’t beat around the bush. ‘I was lost and then I was found’ he said. Fabian collected several psychiatric diagnoses before he realised that he might be autistic. He worked it out for himself and then a psychiatrist confirmed it. He says that seeing himself as disabled, rather than having a psychiatric illness, changed everything.But Fabian is sceptical about some of the ways that autism is being portrayed and discussed online. While he thinks that people should be able to self-identify, he recognises that lived experience is a complicated thing and there are multiple incentives at place. When people post reels of themselves having meltdowns on social media, for example, what is that about? Should we value lived experience over research - and what happens when they point us in different directions? This was an unusually open conversation and we hope you enjoy it. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Earlier this year a new book, ‘Upward Bound’, garnered a lot of attention. It’s authorship was attributed to non-speaking autistic man Woody Brown. It was covered in the Guardian, the New York Times and the Today Show. It’s part of a long tradition where non-speaking autistic people are credited with the authorship of books and articles that they spell out, letter by letter, with the support of a facilitator.But is it too good to be true? This is a hotly debated area, with some claiming it can be abusive, while others say it’s the key to unlocking a person’s inner life.Amy Lutz is someone for whom this has personal resonance. She has an adult son, Jonah, who she describes as profoundly autistic. Her concerns about how he and people like him are being spoken over led her to do a PhD which became her book ‘Chasing the Intact Mind- How The Severely Autistic and Intellectually Disabled Were Excluded from the Debates That Affect Them Most’.In our discussion, Amy talks about her experience as a parent, her concerns about the potential harms of facilitated communication, and the contradictions of the neurodiversity movement. She also discusses the limitations of the social model of disability when applied to those with severe cognitive disabilities.Amy sheds light on a fascinating and highly contested area of autism from both a personal and academic perspective. This is a conversation you won’t want to miss. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

In this episode, we talked to Jonathan Green. He’s a child psychiatrist and conducts research into children’s social development at the University of Manchester. His research centres around early intervention for autistic children - but he doesn’t work directly with the children. The intervention is with parents, to help them to understand and interact with their autistic children better. They aim to improve the social environment of the child, to better scaffold their development. Jonathan tells us the details of how these interventions work, what their research findings are and why he is so passionate about bringing evidence-based early intervention to as many families as possible. We also discuss some of the controversies around the idea of early intervention. Subscribe to Let's Talk Neurosense: the Psychology of Neurodiversity to hear about future episodes. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

This week we are delighted to bring you this interview with Anna. Anna is an autistic woman diagnosed in adulthood who is passionate about raising awareness of non-stereotypical presentations of autism. She also has severe OCD and has been housebound for the last six years. She has a YouTube channel called ‘Autism’s Individual’ where she posts about autism and her life. In this conversation with Naomi, Anna explains how she spent her childhood being described as ‘an enigma’. She tells us about her diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome at the age of twenty-one, and what that meant to her. She also speaks about masking, the need for subgroups in the autism spectrum and why she thinks we need to keep using the word ‘disorder’. Anna has a unique perspective on autism and a fascinating story to tell. We hope you enjoy it. Thanks for listening to Let’s Talk Neurosense. Subscribe for free to hear about new episodes as they come out. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

Dr Helen Kirkaldie is a clinical psychologist who specialises in working with adopted children and their families. She has extensive experience in working with developmental trauma and attachment. In this conversation, she tells us how working with children has changed over her nineteen years of clinical experience, and how, as a society, we seem to have moved towards a more diagnostic framing of children’s differences and difficulties. She talks about how the question of autism or ADHD is now frequently part of her work, when previously it would not have been. We talk about how children’s behaviour and distress can always be viewed through different lenses, depending on the perspective of the adults around them. We discuss the way that professionals try to help, and how a diagnosis can be essential for children and families in accessing support. We talk about the many different roles that a diagnosis plays, and the dilemmas that this creates for professionals and families. This is an honest conversation about the real-life tensions of clinical practice with distressed children and their families. We hope you enjoy it. Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Neurosense: the Psychology of Neurodiversity. Subscribe for free to receive new episodes as they are released. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

In the fourth episode of Let’s Talk Neurosense, we talked to Katy Elphinstone, autistic advocate, researcher and author of How to Raise Happy Neurofabulous Children: A Parent’s Guide. She got in touch after our interview with Uta Frith (in episode one), as she wanted to respond to several of the points made. Katy’s work focuses on autism, empathy and social justice, all from an autistic perspective. In this episode, Katy explained why she thinks autism is a social justice issue and why we need to become more aware of where the power lies. It’s a great conversation which touches on many important issues. Katy created a reference list for this episode which can be found on the link below.We hope you enjoy it. Thanks for reading Let's Talk Neurosense: the Psychology of Neurodiversity ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support our work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

In this week's episode of Let's Talk Neurosense, neurodivergent GP Victoria Galvis talks to us about the importance, as she sees it, of the concept of neurodivergence in primary care settings, and how she is helping people in her clinical practice. Victoria is the co-author of the book Neurodivergence in Primary Care. We consider, amongst many topics, what might be the motivations of people who come at this topic from different perspectives.As always, let us know what you think of the ideas presented, and how they fit with your own experience or clinical practice. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

In this latest episode of Let's Talk Neurosense, we talk to Katherine Uher, autistic psychotherapist and mum to her autistic son. Katherine is one of many people who got in touch with us following the release of our interview with Uta Frith. We had a really interesting discussion, touching on key issues such as masking, neurodivergence and neurotypicality, and what school's need in order to be able to meet the needs of autistic and neurodivergent children. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com

We recorded this interview before Uta gave an interview to the TES which created waves across X/Twitter. We’re releasing this now as it gives further depth to the issues Uta touched upon in her TES interview.Please note there is some outdated language used in the podcast which some may find offensive. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit neurosense.substack.com