Life After Ministry

Church transitions often expose what has been neglected for years.  In this conversation, longtime pastor Wayne Hoag reflects on the painful lessons he learned after leaving one church unprepared for his departure and how that experience shaped a completely different approach to succession later in ministry.  Together, we explore what healthy pastoral transitions require: humility, long-term preparation, deep love for the church, and the willingness to release control before crisis forces the issue. The conversation also digs into the spiritual side of leadership transition. Wayne shares how unity and love inside the body of Christ become especially important during seasons of change and why churches that avoid difficult conversations often create deeper wounds later. Key Takeaways Healthy pastoral succession starts years before the actual transition. Churches often avoid transition conversations until crisis forces them. A pastor must gradually release responsibility if the next leader is going to succeed. Unity in the church is built around Christ, not personalities or preferences. Ministry purpose does not end when a pastor steps away from the pulpit. Chapter Markers 00:00 - Wayne’s painful lesson from leaving a church unprepared  03:34 - Building a long-term succession plan  05:45 - Identifying and mentoring the next pastor  07:53 - The temptation to hold onto control  09:52 - How the church stayed unified during transition  15:13 - The heart behind The One Another Project  17:43 - Why churches struggle with unity and love  19:49 - Why pastoral transitions create vulnerability  23:48 - What healthy transitions require from leaders  25:33 - Discovering purpose after pastoral ministry  30:36 - Why churches cannot afford to ignore succession planning Start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions to learn more about healthy pastoral succession, church leadership transition planning, and life after ministry at ministrytransitions.com.  You can also connect with Wayne Hoag and explore The One Another Project, his book, blog, and ministry resources at oneanotheronline.org.  Whether you are preparing proactively for a transition or navigating one right now, both ministries exist to help churches pursue healthy leadership handoffs rooted in unity, wisdom, and care for the body of Christ.

Leadership transitions often don’t fail in the moment they happen. They begin to unravel long before that.  In unclear expectations, undefined roles, and decisions made without discernment.  This episode explores how fear, lack of clarity, and misaligned leadership structures quietly shape outcomes. It offers a clearer path forward for leaders and boards navigating change. Key Takeaways Fear of mistakes can stall leadership more than mistakes themselves Decision-making and spiritual discernment are not the same skill Most ministry breakdowns begin with unclear expectations around results Boards often drift into staff roles when responsibilities aren’t defined Healthy transitions require humility, clarity, and shared understanding Chapter Markers  00:00 — Introduction and John’s leadership background 02:30 — How ministry has changed over time 06:30 — Fear, mistakes, and leadership growth 10:50 — The danger of unclear expectations in leadership 16:50 — Board roles vs. staff roles explained 19:50 — What leaders often get wrong in transitions 28:00 — Why board training is so difficult to scale 32:50 — A defining moment of spiritual discernment 39:00 — Recommended books and final thoughts If this conversation surfaced something in your own leadership or board dynamics, don’t leave it there. Start a conversation with us at https://ministrytransitions.com. Whether you’re in the middle of a transition or trying to prepare for one, having the right guide can bring clarity to what feels uncertain. And if you want to go deeper into the ideas John shared around leadership, governance, and learning from mistakes, you can explore his work at https://managementbuckets.com. His insights are practical, seasoned, and grounded in decades of real ministry experience. You don’t have to figure this out alone. Start the conversation.

Succession is one of the most important moments in the life of a ministry. And one of the most misunderstood. After decades working with leading Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth has watched leadership transitions unfold from behind the scenes.  Some created momentum and clarity. Others quietly eroded trust, fractured relationships, and stalled mission. What makes the difference? In this episode, Steve shares the patterns he’s seen across hundreds of organizations, why internal succession is often more effective, and how boards and leaders can work together to create a “no drama” transition. This conversation is both practical and deeply human, addressing not just strategy but identity, trust, and the emotional reality leaders face as they step out of their roles. Key Takeaways The healthiest successions begin years before the actual transition • Internal candidates have a significantly higher success rate than external hires • Culture fit is one of the biggest predictors of success or failure • Boards often underestimate their need for outside help • Mistreating outgoing leaders can damage donor trust and organizational stability • Leaders must plan not just what they are leaving, but what they are going toward • Humility and collaboration are essential for a “no drama” succession Chapter Markers 00:00 — Introduction to Steve Woodworth 01:36 — Why he wrote Lost in Transition 05:00 — Patterns in healthy vs unhealthy successions 07:15 — Why culture fit matters so much 09:23 — Internal vs external successors 12:43 — What happens when you don’t prepare 16:03 — The emotional weight of stepping down 17:58 — Mistreating outgoing leaders 20:56 — What leaders need to hear before retiring 23:10 — Transitioning into what’s next 26:27 — The challenge of founder succession 31:07 — Gone too soon vs stayed too long 35:12 — The critical role of boards 39:56 — What’s changing in succession today If you’re navigating a leadership transition or want to prepare your organization before challenges arise, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps leaders and boards plan wisely and finish strong.  You can also connect with Steve Woodworth’s insights through his book Lost in Transition and his work at https://masterworks.agency or on LinkedIn, where he shares ongoing wisdom for leaders facing succession decisions. These resources exist to help you steward both the ending and the next beginning with clarity and care.

Leadership often looks clear in hindsight, but confusing in the moment. For Tami Heim, the journey into leadership began with a dramatic shift in ambition. Just days after graduating college, she surrendered her plans to follow Christ, stepping into a life where leadership was no longer about advancement but obedience. Over the next several decades, that calling would lead her through massive corporate change, cultural disruption, and deeply personal trials.  From navigating retail mergers during the rise of Amazon to leading during national crises and personal loss, each moment shaped how she understands faith, leadership, and God’s faithfulness. Today, as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, Tami helps equip leaders across more than 125 countries.  In this conversation, she shares how leaders can seek God in uncertainty, navigate disruption, and lead with both competence and spiritual depth. This episode is an invitation to rediscover leadership as an adventure with God rather than a platform to control. Key Takeaways Leadership growth often comes through disruption and difficulty, not comfort God’s faithfulness becomes clearer after walking through multiple seasons of crisis Spiritual formation is just as critical as leadership competency Healthy leadership requires wise guides, side guides, and gospel community Seeking God together as a team can transform how organizations navigate uncertainty Identity must remain rooted in Christ rather than in leadership roles Strong leadership transitions require trust in God’s timing and openness to what comes next Chapter Markers 00:00 — Introduction to Tami Heim 02:08 — Management, stewardship, and leadership 04:42 — Being saved from personal ambition 07:06 — Business as ministry before it was common 09:57 — The role of Christian community in leadership 12:09 — Leading through crisis and disruption 14:19 — Navigating 9/11 and national uncertainty 16:44 — When COVID threatened the future of CLA 18:45 — Leadership during seasons of transition 20:21 — Seeking God first as an organization 23:10 — Identity beyond leadership roles 26:25 — Multiply, not divide 30:55 — The ache of ministry leaders 33:44 — What makes the Outcomes Conference unique 37:31 — Leadership, presence, and meaningful conversations 40:02 — Final invitation to Outcomes Conference If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, succession conversation, or difficult ministry change, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps churches and nonprofits protect people, preserve mission, and plan what comes next.  You can also explore more about the Christian Leadership Alliance and the Outcomes Conference at https://outcomesconference.org. These resources exist to help leaders finish strong and step confidently into whatever God has next. Thanks for listening to the Life After Ministry podcast.

There’s a kind of grief that doesn’t come with a clear loss. No funeral. No ending. Just the quiet ache of something that never came to be. For many in ministry, this kind of grief goes unnamed and unaddressed. Drew Hensley calls it “invisible grief.” It’s the pain of unrealized hopes, whether that’s infertility, singleness, unmet expectations, or a future you were certain God was leading you toward.  And because it’s unseen, it often gets buried under responsibility, performance, and the pressure to keep showing up. In this conversation, Drew shares his personal journey through infertility while pastoring, the unhealthy ways he coped, and the turning point that led him toward honesty, lament, and healing.  This episode offers a grounded, honest look at how to carry grief without losing your faith. Key Takeaways Invisible grief is the pain of what has never been and may never be Ministry leaders often carry grief privately while serving others publicly Avoiding grief doesn’t silence it. It reshapes how it shows up Lament is a necessary spiritual practice, not a lack of faith Joy and grief are not opposites. They can coexist Healing begins with honesty, first with God, then with others The church grows stronger when it learns to sit with people in unresolved pain Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to Invisible Grief 02:00 – Defining grief that no one sees 05:00 – Drew’s infertility story begins 08:30 – The weight of grief in ministry leadership 12:00 – Coping, numbing, and emotional exhaustion 17:30 – The turning point: honesty with God 20:30 – Why joy and grief are not opposites 26:30 – A framework: lay down, pick up, move forward 30:00 – Adoption, redemption, and unresolved tension 33:00 – Is the church good at grief? 37:00 – Final reflections on trust and faith If you’re navigating a difficult transition, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call, support leaders in transition, or find guidance for what’s next. You can explore Drew Hensley’s book Invisible Grief wherever books are sold. Take the next step toward honest healing and wise transition today.

Many ministry leaders begin their journey with a genuine desire to serve. But somewhere along the way, leadership can quietly become something else.  Platforms grow. Expectations rise. Applause becomes affirmation. And before long, influence begins to shape identity. Eric Reid spent years traveling the world teaching leadership alongside John Maxwell. From the outside, it looked like success. But internally, Eric began to notice a troubling pattern.  Leadership had become a performance, a way to earn approval rather than simply serve people. In this conversation with Matt Davis, Eric reflects on the personal awakening that led him to write Leadership Was Never My Calling.  Together they unpack the deep tensions many leaders carry: the pull toward platform, the pressure to perform, and the quiet invitation of Jesus to step down the ladder and serve with humility. Key Takeaways Leadership can easily become a hiding place for insecurity and identity wounds • Applause and affirmation can become addictive forms of validation • Performance and presence are very different ways of leading • Many leaders carry unresolved father wounds that shape how they pursue influence • Small, unseen acts of faithfulness often carry the greatest kingdom impact • True Christlike leadership begins at the bottom of the ladder, not the top • Freedom comes when leaders shift from building influence to serving people Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introducing Eric Reid and the question of calling 02:00 – The origin of the book Leadership Was Never My Calling 05:20 – Performance versus presence in ministry leadership 08:30 – The addiction to applause and approval 11:20 – Father wounds and identity in leadership 16:00 – Navigating significance while remaining faithful 19:50 – The power of small, unseen acts of service 23:20 – Surrendering career outcomes to God 26:40 – When leaders feel their best years are behind them 28:30 – Why stepping down the ladder leads to freedom Learn More If you’re navigating a ministry transition or wrestling with what comes next, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to explore confidential coaching and support. You can also learn more about Eric Reid and his upcoming book at https://lwnc.net.

What happens when a pastor steps away after decades of leading a church? Many leaders imagine retirement will bring peace and freedom.  But for pastors, the transition often carries unexpected weight. The loss of identity, the quiet grief of leaving a community, and the challenge of rediscovering purpose can make the next season far more complicated than anticipated. After serving the same church for 35 years, Doug Bullock faced this reality firsthand. What began as a thoughtful transition into retirement turned into a deeper journey through loss, identity, and calling.  In the process, he discovered that many pastors are unprepared for the emotional and spiritual questions that follow the end of pastoral leadership. In this conversation, Doug shares what surprised him most after stepping away from ministry and why retiring pastors still have a crucial role in strengthening the church.  Together they explore how pastors can process loss, redeem past pain, and find renewed purpose beyond the pulpit. Key Takeaways Retirement from ministry often includes unexpected grief and identity loss • Many pastors are unprepared for the emotional impact of stepping away • Feelings of obscurity after decades of leadership can be surprisingly difficult • Retired pastors still carry valuable wisdom that can benefit younger leaders • Churches rarely have a clear vision for how retired pastors can remain involved • Processing pain and past failures is essential for healthy transition • Flourishing after ministry means continuing to walk with Christ and serve faithfully in new ways Chapter Markers  00:00 – Meeting Doug Bullock and his book New Dawn 01:05 – Recognizing when it was time to step away from pastoral leadership 03:59 – Transitioning out of ministry and returning to school 06:00 – Discovering the deeper questions of pastoral retirement 08:07 – The emotional struggles pastors face after stepping down 11:03 – The experience of becoming unknown after years of leadership 13:41 – The key questions pastors must wrestle with in retirement 23:26 – Why many retired pastors struggle attending church 28:13 – The tension between older and younger pastoral generations 32:28 – The coming wave of pastoral retirements 34:03 – What it means to truly flourish in retirement 36:04 – Advice for pastors preparing to step away from ministry 38:37 – Redeeming past pain and helping the next generation If you’re navigating a ministry transition or preparing for what comes next, visit ministrytransitions.com to find guidance, resources, or schedule a confidential conversation.  You can also explore Doug Bullock’s book New Dawn: Helping Pastors Flourish in Retirement on Amazon or connect with him directly at [email protected].

What happens when the calling that once defined you no longer feels sustainable? When the work you love begins to cost you more than you can carry?  For many ministry leaders, the hardest battles are not theological. They are personal. Emotional. Quiet. And often fought alone. In this episode, Matt Davis sits down with Don Ross, former pastor and founder of Manhood Tribes, to talk about why so many men struggle in silence, especially during seasons of ministry transition.  After two decades in large evangelical church leadership, Don stepped away - not because he stopped loving Jesus, but because the system was breaking him.  What followed was a difficult transition marked by uncertainty, financial pressure, and identity questions that many ministry leaders quietly face. This conversation pulls back the curtain on isolation, addiction, shame, and the deep need for brotherhood.  If you are navigating transition, questioning your direction, or responsible for leading others through change, this episode offers both clarity and hope.  No man should have to walk alone. Key Takeaways Ministry leadership can be both deeply fulfilling and profoundly exhausting at the same time. Many church systems unintentionally isolate pastors rather than care for them. Churches often struggle to reach men because they build connection models that don’t align with how men bond. Pornography addiction thrives in isolation and shame, even among pastors. Bringing struggle into the light is the first step toward freedom. Transition seasons destabilize identity, especially around provision and purpose. Intentional, challenge-based brotherhood can anchor men during seasons of uncertainty. Chapter Markers  00:00 – Introduction and framing the conversation about men 01:00 – Don’s ministry journey and transition 06:00 – The celebrity pastor model and systemic pressure 08:00 – Why churches struggle to reach men 16:00 – The five marks of manhood 19:00 – Pornography, shame, and isolation 24:00 – How tribes work differently than typical men’s groups 31:00 – Financial pressure and identity in transition 37:00 – Fulfillment after leaving vocational ministry Ready to take your next step? Visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession. Explore Don’s resources at ManhoodTribes.com and take the quiz at HowManlyAreYou.com. If this episode helped you, consider donating to support leaders navigating transition.

Is there really a difference between ministry and the marketplace? Or have we created a divide that Scripture never intended? In this episode, Curt Swindoll shares insights from 40 years of leadership across nonprofit, church, and for-profit environments.  Having transitioned multiple times - sometimes with a plan, sometimes without - Curt challenges the assumption that ministry is something we leave behind.  Instead, he invites leaders to rethink their posture toward God, especially during seasons of uncertainty. For leaders navigating burnout, succession, or vocational transition, this conversation reframes the journey.  The issue is not whether you are in ministry or business. The deeper issue is whether you are living for God or with Him.  And that distinction changes everything. Key Takeaways There is no sacred-secular divide. God is as present in the marketplace as in the church. Burnout often reveals a “for God” posture that has replaced a “with God” relationship. Transitions are rarely clean; God’s presence is not dependent on clarity. Work is one of the primary places of spiritual formation. Discernment is not about finding one perfect path but learning to journey wisely with God. Succession is less about ending ministry and more about shifting where and how ministry happens. Peace and freedom are often the deeper invitation beneath vocational change. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Is There Really Life After Ministry? 02:30 – Sacred vs. Secular: A False Divide 07:00 – Transitioning Without a Plan 10:00 – Life With God vs. Life For God 15:00 – Burnout and Identity in Ministry 21:00 – The Role of Spiritual Formation and Marriage 24:00 – Moving Between Ministry and Marketplace 29:00 – God at the Door in Seasons of Anxiety 33:00 – Lessons from a Lifetime of Ministry Transitions 43:00 – Succession, Discernment, and “Never Say Never” 50:00 – Practical Resources and Final Encouragement If this conversation stirred something in you - whether you're navigating a leadership transition, discerning succession, or simply longing to experience more of a life with God - there are a few trusted next steps.  For confidential support and guidance through ministry transitions, visit https://ministrytransitions.com.  To explore spiritual formation resources and connect with trained spiritual directors, go to https://graftedlife.org.  And if you're leading an organization and want clarity, traction, and a healthier operating rhythm, learn more about EOS at https://www.eosworldwide.com or connect directly with Curt at https://www.eosworldwide.com/curt-swindoll. Wherever you are in your journey, you don’t have to walk it alone.

What if the biggest lie Christian leaders believe is that ministry only happens inside church walls? When pastors and nonprofit leaders transition into the marketplace, many feel like they’ve stepped out of calling and into something lesser. But that assumption may be the very thing limiting the Church’s influence. In this episode, we talk with Chuck Proudfit about faith at work, succession challenges, leadership continuity, and why Christians must rethink the sacred-secular divide.  This conversation reframes work as worship and challenges leaders to build legacy that outlives them. Key Takeaways Work is not secular space. It is strategic deployment. The sacred-secular divide quietly undermines Christian leadership. Most succession failures begin long before the transition announcement. Boards must proactively ask leaders about their 10-year vision. Continuity requires infrastructure, not just inspiration. Community shapes faith at work more effectively than content alone. Leadership legacy must include both personal and organizational clarity. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction and Chuck’s faith journey 03:15 – Work as worship and the sacred-secular divide 06:44 – Faith in consulting and marketplace leadership 07:33 – Why church transitions struggle 10:13 – Organic ministry in the workplace 13:30 – The birth of At Work On Purpose 16:44 – Spiritual formation through work 19:05 – The Faith at Work Summit and future frontiers 20:43 – Continuity, succession, and leadership legacy 25:15 – Invitation to the Summit If you are navigating a leadership transition, preparing for succession, or reimagining how faith integrates with your everyday work, take your next step today. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation about your transition, explore how faith and work come together at https://atworkonpurpose.org/, and learn more about the global Faith at Work Summit at https://faithatworksummit2026.com/. Whether you are leaving vocational ministry, leading through change, or building what comes next, you do not have to do it alone.

Most ministry leaders expect relief after stepping away. What they don’t expect is the wilderness to begin after the resignation. In this honest conversation, Dustin Kleinschmidt shares how years of crisis leadership, misaligned values, and unresolved grief led to burnout, anxiety, and a deep reckoning with faith.  Rather than rushing toward resolution, Dustin invites leaders to reconsider what the wilderness is actually for. This episode reframes suffering, challenges Christian shortcuts around pain, and offers language for leaders who feel stuck between obedience and disappointment.  If you’ve ever wondered whether you missed God or why healing is taking so long, this conversation meets you right where you are. Key Takeaways Burnout is often the result of long-term erosion, not one failure Healthy systems can’t sustain you in an unhealthy environment The wilderness often begins after the role ends Spiritual bypassing keeps leaders disconnected from their real pain Value misalignment creates invisible but constant friction Healing doesn’t mean closure or clarity God’s presence in the wilderness matters more than getting out of it Chapter Markers 00:00 – Dustin’s ministry journey and early formation 03:30 – Crisis leadership and long-term erosion 06:20 – When sustainability quietly disappears 09:30 – Why good systems still fail in toxic environments 11:20 – Entering the wilderness after resignation 15:20 – Spiritual bypassing and emotional honesty 18:30 – The Exodus, expectations, and disappointment with God 24:00 – Living faithfully without resolution 28:15 – The Wilderness Way: book, workbook, and music If you’re in the wilderness and looking for faithful companions along the way, explore The Wilderness Way and Ministry Transitions. Together, they offer resources to help you live honestly with God in hard seasons and engage Scripture with deeper historical and spiritual clarity. Learn more at https://www.dustinkleinschmidt.com and https://thejewishroad.com.

Stepping away from leadership is rarely just a strategic decision. It’s personal. Emotional. Spiritual. Especially for founders and long-term leaders who have poured their lives into a ministry. In this episode, Jim West reflects on what it meant to hand off leadership of the Barnabas Group, a ministry he helped build and lead for over two decades.  Just weeks after that transition, Jim was diagnosed with cancer, forcing him into a season of surrender he never planned. This conversation explores succession, identity, grief, and trust. It’s an honest look at what happens when God asks you to release what you love, and how unexpected seasons can become some of the most formative and meaningful of your life. Key Takeaways Succession is not an emergency plan. It’s a discipleship issue. Founders often grieve more than they expect when they step away. A ministry continuing without you can be a sign of health, not failure. Forced stillness can protect both leaders and organizations. Identity untethered from role allows for deeper trust in God. Life after ministry can be fuller, not smaller. Transitions require guides, not just decisions. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Jim’s path into the Barnabas Group 03:30 – Recognizing the need for succession 05:20 – Passing the baton and receiving a cancer diagnosis 07:40 – Watching the ministry grow without him 11:50 – Faith, cancer, and spiritual clarity 16:00 – Discovering life and ministry after leadership 27:10 – Advice for leaders facing transition If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, visit ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential conversation and get support that protects people, preserves purpose, and plans wisely for what’s next.

Most ministry transitions don’t happen suddenly. They happen slowly, quietly, and later than they should.  In this season-ending episode, we reflect on the patterns Ministry Transitions has seen over the past year while walking with pastors, boards, nonprofits, and faith-driven organizations. From delayed conversations to the quiet crisis of succession, this episode names the realities leaders often feel but rarely say out loud.  It’s an honest look at why transitions feel so heavy, why waiting makes them harder, and how support can change the outcome entirely. This is not a forecast for what’s next. It’s a grounded invitation to name what’s already here and walk through it with wisdom, care, and courage. Key Takeaways Most transitions happen later than they should, not because of neglect but misplaced protection Waiting does not make transitions easier. It makes them more expensive Succession planning is about stewardship, not replacement Ministry transitions extend far beyond the church into nonprofits and faith-driven organizations Many leaders engage support only after the ending has already occurred Leaders are often relieved, not resistant, when care is offered Support consistently changes outcomes for leaders and organizations Chapter Markers 00:00 – When transition feels unfinished 05:20 – Why transitions are happening too late 11:10 – Succession as a silent crisis 17:30 – Ministry beyond the church walls 23:45 – Why people listen quietly 29:10 – What happens when leaders are offered support 35:40 – Why support changes outcomes If you’re in a transition, leading others through one, or want to help someone who didn’t see this coming, visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call, explore resources, or give toward supporting a leader in transition. You don’t have to walk this alone.

At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right.  But deep down, we know something’s wrong. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever. This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry. Key Takeaways Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him. Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust. Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life. Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence. True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt. Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans. You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress 07:03 – Solving the time problem 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal? 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us  

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once.  In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense.  Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling. From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see.  And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God. This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect. Key Takeaways How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it. Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval. What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving. How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions. Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction. The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life. How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do. If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name. And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next. There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

Dr. Nathan Baxter loved ten hours of his job. Those one-on-ones with staff fueled him. The rest slowly emptied him. Naming that truth started a two-year journey out of a role he’d held for decades. He didn’t abandon ministry. He changed vehicles so his calling could breathe again. In this conversation Nathan walks through a practical runway. He set a modest income target, built a small savings cushion, and launched a coaching practice with a pastor’s heart. He also shares the moment his elders asked him to leave sooner than planned and chose surprising generosity, a gift that humbled him more than any pain. Now coaching CEOs and pastors alike, Nathan talks finishing well, clarifying a “particular purpose,” and the three anchors every leader over 50 needs: margin, influence, and hyper-intentional living.  If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step. Key Takeaways Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling. A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well. Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion. Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility. You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers. Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living. Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity. To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.” That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity.  Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors. If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next. Key Takeaways  Identity is received in Christ, not earned by a role Failure roars like a lion but shrinks when faced Grace isn’t tidy - it meets you in real time Bi-vocational ministry mirrors the lives of congregants Pastoral skills translate beyond the pulpit Churches can pilot one day of outside work for healthier staff The wilderness is where God grows clarity and love Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 05:15 From Phoenix growth to Australian valley 08:30 Radio hosting and a father’s death 10:56 Untangling identity from role 15:45 A year of silence and being fed 21:05 What “pastor” really means 24:50 Transferable skills pastors overlook 29:20 Why bi-vocational makes sense 40:10 Real-time grace at the speed of Jesus 45:10 Closing If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace. To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers. If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness.  In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks. John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel.  He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises. From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central. Key Takeaways Mission and values - not fear - should drive personnel policy and decisions. U.S. law generally avoids entangling courts in religious leadership disputes; plan accordingly. Written agreements can be precise and pastoral when drafted with mutual dignity in mind. Succession planning is discipleship: normalize timelines and transitions early. Consider mutual confidentiality/non-disparagement; avoid clauses that suppress lawful reporting. Use Christian conciliation for disputes when both parties voluntarily opt in. Involve counsel early - clarity at formation prevents costly confusion at separation. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Welcome, the tension of boss and brother 02:54 — John’s ministry background and unexpected termination 08:55 — Discernment, law school, and a new calling 12:51 — “Lawyers aren’t the enemy” and the advisor model 16:07 — How religious liberty shapes ministry employment 23:43 — Loyalty, performance, and ending well 28:49 — Clarity at the start: contracts, bylaws, expectations 32:56 — Christian conciliation vs. civil court 37:36 — NDAs, confidentiality, and what’s wise now 41:43 — Culture signals: how we say goodbye       When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss and change with clarity, care, and purpose. Start your next chapter at ministrytransitions.com. And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart. Learn more about his work serving churches and nonprofits at taftlaw.com/people/john-terry-melcon/.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision.  In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready. We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life.  You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions. If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype. Key Takeaways Mental fitness is proactive training; therapy is reactive care for acute needs. Both matter. Leaders fight three constants: entropy, the enemy, and evil - training helps us endure them. Preventative care beats crisis management; reduce interior noise to increase signal. Ministries love the model because it separates staff care from supervisory entanglements. Outcomes matter: increased productivity and well-being translate to real ROI. Accessibility drives adoption: mobile scheduling, short sessions, and confidentiality. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 01:00 Vineet’s backstory: immigrant kid to Marine officer 04:00 What is Forte and who they serve 05:45 Mental fitness vs mental health - clear differences 09:20 Preventative maintenance and the “office vent” analogy 11:45 The three E’s: entropy, enemy, evil 15:00 Why churches became early adopters 19:30 EAPs, engagement, and outcomes that matter 22:05 The secret sauce: accessibility and aspiration 25:40 From interrogation training to loving people well 29:00 Vision: organizations solving big problems, people known and whole 31:15 Next steps for leaders and teams 33:30 Closing and partnership When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com. For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms.  In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes. Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people.  They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder. There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar.  This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better. Key Takeaways Forced termination becomes traumatic when people lose voice, choice, and community. Boards can reduce harm through clear policy, generous severance, and family-wide care. Day one priorities: safety, breathing space, housing plan, immediate financial triage. Spouses often sense red flags early; their intuition should be invited and honored. Community mitigates trauma; isolation cements it. Build a small circle fast. Identity untangling takes time for both pastor and spouse; purpose is bigger than a role. Support groups for ministry wives provide consistent, safe spaces for real healing. Chapter Markers 00:00 Cold open and setup 03:22 Introductions; why this conversation matters 05:49 “You’re done here”: the termination moment 09:29 Red flags and the slow drift toward decision 11:29 Rejection before the firing; betrayal and shock 16:32 The body keeps the score: words fail, pain speaks 20:06 Day zero logistics: kids, school, where to go 26:51 Finding footing: packing, jobs, housing 31:24 When the church orbits the pastor and forgets the spouse 35:29 How boards can reduce harm and do this better 40:11 Healing in community: support groups for ministry wives 50:17 Life after ministry: new work, real purpose 53:18 Preparing for a high-risk profession: finances and wisdom 55:24 Resources, next steps, and hope Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud.  In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ. We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire.  Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling. If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime. Key takeaways Intention without action creates collateral damage in transitions. “Driven” can be desperation in disguise; identity must relocate from role to Christ. God often speaks through memory, community, and quiet checks in the soul. Invite truth-telling friends. Love risks being misunderstood to protect you. Over-preparation can be control; trust requires limits on our need to manage outcomes. Measure success by faithfulness to Jesus and people, not by platform. Healthy endings open a window for deep heart work and future freedom. Chapter markers 00:00 Cold open, Canadians and calling 03:20 Intention vs impact in church transitions 07:30 PK expectations and disillusionment 10:20 Building a ministry-minded business 12:40 COVID collapse and costly layoffs 16:20 Untangling identity from role 18:45 A memory from God that exposed motive 28:55 “Physio” for the soul and daily trust 38:00 Friendship that told the hard truth 47:50 Closing one work, starting another 52:15 Learning to follow quiet discernment 59:30 Wealth redefined: family, faith, and freedom 1:04:15 Kingdom over empire, final blessing If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next. For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

When the New York Times ran with allegations surrounding Willow Creek’s founding pastor, Steve Carter had a choice: keep the machine running or protect the trust of the people in the room. He chose integrity - and walked away from the stage that had defined his career. In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative. He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns. But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership. Key Takeaways  Integrity over institutional preservation: Trust is sacred; don’t trade it for optics. Name “values higher than the chaos”: Decide in advance what you won’t violate when pressure comes. Healing is not transferable: There’s first-hand wounding and first-hand healing; your family needs its own path. Interrogate attraction to unhealthy systems: Ask why certain leaders and cultures feel “safe.” Grief takes the time it takes: Practice a Holy Saturday rhythm - don’t rush from Friday to Sunday. Choose place over platform: Calling is often geographic and relational, not positional. Lead from scars, not spin: Wounds can become witness when truth is told and humility is practiced. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Cold open: Why transitions are never just “staff changes” 04:53 — “These are my people”: the early joy at Willow 06:47 — Crisis emerges; what repentance would have required 09:14 — The headlines drop; “I won’t play with people’s trust” 11:52 — Who can you trust when the room is spinning? 17:22 — Six options, and why pastoring again wasn’t one of them 19:26 — Therapist’s jolt: “Why are you drawn to narcissists?” 22:16 — Outside support vs. inside backlash; the binder of messages 25:34 — Reframing the anger; learning what people were really saying 27:59 — Starbucks incident; a son’s question about “reward” 33:25 — Grieve, Breathe, Receive: the Holy Weekend framework 36:53 — Wilderness theology: disorientation to reorientation 39:36 — Reentry: discerning a safe, healthy church 41:33 — “Steve of Chicagoland”: called to a place, not a position 43:50 — Inner Hybels and inner Ortberg: action and formation 47:20 — Staying in touch; practicing faithfulness, not fame If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call. You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be. In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible. This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions 03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board? 06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty 08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s) 10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations 13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry 16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions 20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained 22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work 25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits 27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand 32:29 – Preview of joint webinar Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong. If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.

Behind every thriving ministry is a foundation you can’t always see - standards, accountability, and trust. Without them, the most passionate vision can unravel overnight. In this episode of Life After Ministry, ECFA’s Jake Lapp explains why accountability matters not just for auditors and boards but for pastors, leaders, and anyone entrusted with Kingdom resources.  He shares how ECFA’s standards were designed to serve ministries, not stifle them, and how transparency is one of the clearest ways leaders reflect Christ’s call to integrity. If you’ve ever wondered whether accountability hinders or helps ministry, Jake’s perspective reframes the conversation. This episode offers a framework for leaders who want to guard the mission, protect their people, and leave behind a legacy of trust. Key Takeaways Accountability is not bureaucracy - it’s discipleship. Transparency builds trust faster than vision statements. Financial integrity protects both leaders and the people they serve. ECFA standards are guardrails, not red tape. Trust is earned in drops but lost in buckets. Healthy structures create freedom, not restriction. Integrity in hidden details sustains visible ministry. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to ECFA and Jake Lapp 02:05 – Why Accountability Matters in Ministry 05:20 – The Role of ECFA Standards 09:45 – How Transparency Builds Trust 13:10 – Common Pitfalls Leaders Face 17:25 – Trust, Integrity, and Long-Term Sustainability 21:40 – Encouragement for Leaders in Transition Strengthen the foundation you cannot see. Visit ECFA.org to review the Seven Standards, explore practical tools, and begin a clear pathway toward accreditation. Build transparency that protects people, guards the mission, and reflects Christ’s call to integrity. If a transition is on the horizon, do not carry it alone. Go to MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call and build an integrity-first plan that safeguards your people and purpose. If you’re able, give to make this support possible for another leader.

What happens when the very act of caring for others leaves you depleted?  Laura Howe, founder of Hope Made Strong, knows firsthand the toll of compassion fatigue. From her own season of burnout came a global movement equipping churches to address mental health with wisdom and grace. In this conversation, Laura shares her personal journey from exhaustion to renewed purpose. She reminds us that burnout is not a moral failure, but a workplace hazard for anyone serving in caregiving roles.  With honesty and clarity, she explains what resilience truly looks like, how to know when you’ve moved from “yellow” into “red,” and why churches must begin addressing mental health as part of whole-life discipleship. For leaders in transition, this episode offers a lifeline. You’ll hear not only practical wisdom but also the hope that God redeems what feels wasted.  Whether you’re a pastor, a board member, or someone carrying unseen weight, Laura’s insights offer courage to pause, refuel, and continue faithfully. Key Takeaways Burnout and compassion fatigue are hazards of caregiving, not signs of weakness or sin. Resilience is less about powering through and more about bouncing back. Ministry leaders must learn to recognize their “zone” on the green-yellow-orange-red scale. Sustainable care in churches means creating belonging, purpose, and hope - not acting as clinics. The Church has a unique capacity to support mental health across every stage of life. Global interest in integrating faith and mental health is rising rapidly. Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit provide free, practical resources. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction to Laura Howe and Hope Made Strong 01:10 – Laura’s Burnout Story and Birth of Hope Made Strong 03:13 – Understanding Compassion Fatigue and Resilience 06:12 – How Do You Know It’s Time for a Change? 09:17 – From Red Zone to Hope Made Strong 12:15 – Sustainability and the Church’s Responsibility 16:04 – Why the Church Must Embrace Mental Health 19:50 – Launching the Church Mental Health Summit 23:25 – Personal Reflection and Final Encouragement If this episode stirred something in you, take a next step: visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession - or give to help another leader get timely support. Then head to HopeMadeStrong.org to equip your team for sustainable care by registering for the Church Mental Health Summit and accessing practical tools for your church.

What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy?  Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it.  They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life. Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship.  The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return. If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke. Key Takeaways Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.” Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care. Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform. The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths. Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work. Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness. Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun 01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus 04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters 04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders 07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love 11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul 14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty 20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools 26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved 27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained 38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings 43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats 45:08 Close and gratitude Explore More Resources: Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all. In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four.  From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry. More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry. Key Takeaways Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again. Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational. Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership. Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels. The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event. Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support. You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up 01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again 03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture 09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal 12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal 15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5 Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help. Visit ministrytransitions.com to: Access resources Sponsor a leader in crisis Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting?  In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown. Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck.  Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership. For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step. Key Takeaways Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring. The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing. Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling. How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity. Why starting scared is better than never starting at all. The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas. How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate 01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact 05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry 08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020 15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures 21:00 – The Ready Framework explained 26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer 29:30 – Becoming ready by doing Next Steps Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com  

Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay.  For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings. In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving.  From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts. Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions.  Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next. Key Takeaways The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition. Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary. Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry. Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments. Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows. Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions. Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation 02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim 03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions 06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision 13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions 15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID 18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today 24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends 26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare 28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go 32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart. In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health. From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it. And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose. Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures. How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus. The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience. Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff. Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction. The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity. How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony 01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards 02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction 05:24 – The onboarding process done right 07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters 09:48 – The three duties of every board member 14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation 18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully 20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake 24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO 31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy 32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack 34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well 38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership 43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected 46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards 49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions 57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email [email protected] or [email protected].  

What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling?  In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling?  Helping leaders find where God wants them next. This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey.  Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart.  Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday. If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step. Key Takeaways From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact. The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building. Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference. Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace. Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship. Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future. Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer 01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry 02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose 03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry 05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires 07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship 07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong 09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title 10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions 12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps 14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession 15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose 17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change 19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output 21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron 24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for 26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee 28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact   If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well. Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything.  In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church. They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust.  Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has.  You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred. It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church. Key Takeaways The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts. Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment. The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition. Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin. Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books. Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry 02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP 04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In 06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity 08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions 12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm) 15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything) 18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now? 22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes 26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar 28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter 32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.  

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity?  In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown.  From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace. But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be. If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are. Key Takeaways Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction) Chapter Markers 00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor 04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics 07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go 12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning 17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff 19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment 22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling 28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember 31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start   If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too. And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.

Alicia Lee didn’t leave ministry. She left Wall Street. After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it.  And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup. In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it.  She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling. If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home. Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears. Key Takeaways: God uses closed doors as clear signs to redirect us into new assignments. Your calling may not change - but your context can. You might already be “in ministry” and not even know it. Faithly is filling a gap for pastors and ministry leaders left out of traditional professional networks like LinkedIn. Slow growth is still real growth. There’s value in patient building and prioritizing soul care over speed. Transitions can tempt us to over-identify with productivity, but our identity is not in what we do - it’s in whose we are. Chapter Markers: 00:00 – From Wall Street to the ministry: Alicia’s surprising career shift 03:30 – The promotion that didn’t come - and what God did instead 06:45 – The vision behind Faithly: Why ministry leaders need their own platform 09:50 – Why LinkedIn doesn’t work for ministry - and what makes Faithly different 14:40 – Bringing Wall Street hustle into the startup world 17:00 – Juggling a tech startup and raising three kids 21:00 – Redefining identity after leaving a high-powered career 24:45 – Building slowly: Why Faithly is growing at the speed of trust 30:00 – What’s next for Faithly and how ministry leaders can get involved If you’re a ministry leader in transition, don’t navigate it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com for guidance, coaching, and care to help you land well. And if you're ready to connect with others who get it - people who are walking the same road - join the growing network at faithly.co. It’s not just a platform. It’s your new ministry ecosystem.  

What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul? In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and co-founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership.  Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling. If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home.  Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go. This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom. Key Takeaways What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early The real cost of avoiding your own growth How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season Chapter Markers 00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story 06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift 14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed 21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well 29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition 36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry 41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort   If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com. Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn Learn more about his work at getforte.com And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith  

Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion. Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion.  But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous. In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.  He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline. Key Takeaways Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis. Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden. Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue. A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them. The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe. Chapter Markers [00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO [03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control [06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse [09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical [14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest [19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer [24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space [28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs [32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task [36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters Take the First Step Toward Rest The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone. Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.  

Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage.  He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding. In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned. What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified? In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling. If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you. Key Takeaways Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it. Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might. Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption. Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way. Chapter Markers [00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith [01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry [02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything [07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question [09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing? [14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck [18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom [21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal [26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption [29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry Next Steps If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry. Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/   Share this episode. Someone needs to hear it.  

What do you do when life shatters around you?  When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers? Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately.  A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state.  Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters.  A brutal murder stole one of them forever.  His businesses collapsed.  His marriages unraveled.  His world should have crushed him. But it didn’t. Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace.  Not numbness.  Not denial.  Actual, undeniable peace.  And then, something even crazier - joy. How? This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms.  Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever.  If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear. Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected. Key Takeaways Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us. The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification. How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent. Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next. The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness. How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty. Chapter Markers 00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background 01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family 07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse 16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered 17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense 20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle 26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers 33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering 40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process   If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone.  We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email [email protected], and we’ll send you a copy. Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope. To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com. This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.  

Episode Summary  The church is supposed to be a place of healing. But what happens when it’s the source of the hurt? Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction. In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restor(y)to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration. Key Takeaways ✅ Church trauma is real - and it doesn’t just affect congregants. Pastors are hurting, too. ✅ Healing must happen inside the church - we can’t keep looking for solutions outside the body of Christ. ✅ Difficult transitions leave lasting scars - but identifying past wounds is the first step to moving forward. ✅ God’s solution? Shepherds who care for the flock - not just institutions, but people who lead with compassion. Chapter Markers ⏳ [00:00] – Why church trauma isn’t just an individual issue ⏳ [04:30] – The hidden cost of toxic congregations and forced terminations ⏳ [10:15] – Why “revitalization” often fails when trauma is ignored ⏳ [15:40] – What it means to be a trauma-informed pastor ⏳ [24:00] – How Restor(y) is helping churches rewrite their narratives ⏳ [30:10] – Practical steps toward healing, for both pastors and congregations If church hurt has left you wounded, you’re not alone. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader navigating dysfunction, or a congregation longing for restoration, there is hope. 🔹 Learn more about Restor(y)’s work at restorycenter.com 🔹 If you need a safe space to talk, we’re here. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation. 🔹 If you believe in this work, consider donating to help pastors in crisis find healing. The church can be whole again. But it starts with facing the wounds. Let’s walk that road together.

Stepping out of ministry can feel like stepping into a free fall. For Jonathan Carone, leaving his church staff role wasn’t just a career transition—it was a journey of unraveling identity, reconciling relationships, and rediscovering purpose. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Jonathan shares his raw and honest story of being “coached off staff,” the lessons he learned in untangling his vocation from his identity, and how he found his way to thriving outside the walls of the church. Jonathan’s story is one of heartbreak and healing, tension and transformation. Whether you’re wrestling with burnout, navigating a tough transition, or trying to figure out how to use your gifts in a new space, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for the road ahead. Key Takeaways: The emotional toll of juggling multiple ministry roles and unmet expectations. How reconciliation with former leaders brings closure and healing. The difference between calling, identity, and vocation—and why it matters. Practical advice for navigating transitions with honor, grace, and faith. Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: Meeting Jonathan Carone and his ministry backstory. 5:20 – The toll of split roles: Balancing creative director, communications, and high school ministry. 12:45 – The moment of transition: What it means to be “coached off staff.” 20:10 – Reconciling relationships: Finding healing with former leaders. 28:30 – Identity vs. vocation: Lessons in rediscovering purpose after ministry. 35:50 – Thriving outside the church: Finding new ways to serve and make an impact. 42:15 – Final thoughts: Living boldly for the kingdom beyond vocational ministry. Call to Action: Transitioning out of ministry is hard, but there’s hope and purpose on the other side. Let’s embrace the truth that your calling is bigger than your vocation. For more stories, insights, and encouragement, subscribe to Life After Ministry wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s navigate this journey together!

Episode Summary What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive.  Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention. Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries.  Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level. Key Takeaways Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort. Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged. Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale. Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry. Chapter Markers 0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron 3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach 9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork 18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity 30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook 45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next   Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today. Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/. For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.  

Episode Summary: In this special episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, Matt Davis, Bill Tom, and Noe Rivera - the founders of Pastoral Transitions - take listeners behind the scenes of their work, sharing insights into the emotional and practical challenges pastors face during ministry transitions. From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings. This episode isn’t just about transitions - it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways. Key Takeaways: Pastors are often silent sufferers, facing immense personal and professional pressures with few healthy outlets. The average pastoral tenure is only 3.6 years, making healthy transitions a critical need for churches. Grieving and gaining are both essential parts of the transition process; pastors must address their emotional health to thrive in new roles. Churches can strengthen their culture by handling goodbyes with grace and care, rather than division and pain. Pastoral Transitions has cut the average transition time from 12-18 months to just 4-5 months by offering personalized support. Mental health awareness is growing in the church, but there’s still work to be done to normalize counseling for ministry leaders. Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: The purpose of Pastoral Transitions and 2024 reflections. 1:30 – Bill’s journey: How his heart has grown for pastors in transition. 2:35 – The ripple effects of pastoral challenges on families and ministries. 3:27 – Coaching pastors to rediscover God’s voice amid transition. 4:48 – Career concerns: Helping pastors identify transferable skills. 7:28 – Reducing transition time: From 12 months to under 5 months. 10:05 – The grieving and gaining process in pastoral transitions. 15:51 – The cultural impact of poorly handled transitions. 18:52 – Redefining work as ministry: Marketplace ministry opportunities. 23:31 – Growing impact: Changing how the church thinks about transitions. 31:18 – Building a healthy culture of succession in churches. 32:43 – A message of hope: God’s provision and healing during difficult times. 36:54 – How to support pastors in transition: Practical steps for churches and individuals. Transitions are never easy, but they can be done with love, grace, and intentionality. Join the mission to help pastors and their families heal and find hope. Share this episode with your church leaders or friends in ministry, and consider supporting a pastor in transition by donating at pastoraltransitions.com/donate. Together, we can transform how the church handles change and bring restoration to the body of Christ.

Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation? Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship. Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement. In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ. And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups. For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen. Key Points The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ. Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six. The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths. The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation. Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms. Pull Quotes "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus." "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd." "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation." "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots Want to Go Deeper? Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.  

What Happens When Ministry Ends? What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation? For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent. In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges. Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering. Key Points From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020. The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated. Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?” Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him. The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess. Pull Quotes "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us." "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like." "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart." "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness Want to Go Deeper? Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Wes Gay is doing through StoryBrand by going to: https://www.wesgay.com/  Episode Summary  Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay. In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success. Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry. Key Takeaways Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change. Pull Quotes "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry." "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world." "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey. [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding. [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll. [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles. [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership. [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind. [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace. [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy. [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about. [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry. [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation. [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn about the great work Matt McGee is doing through "The Last Service Podcast" by going to: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-last-service-podcast/id1491573751  Episode Summary  Imagine standing at the pulpit after your last sermon, knowing it's not just the end of a service, but the end of your ministry journey at that church. What happens next? In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Matt McGee, founder of The Last Service Podcast, to explore the difficult transitions pastors face when they step away from ministry. Whether it's through burnout, church closure, or simply moving into a new season, Matt McGee has seen firsthand the emotional toll and the challenges that follow. This episode tackles the question, "Is there life after ministry?" with a powerful reminder that ministry doesn’t end with a job title. Key Takeaways You Are Not a Failure: Leaving ministry - whether through a church closure or a transition—does not define your worth or calling. Find Community After Ministry: Pastors must actively seek support, guidance, and pastoral care when leaving ministry to avoid isolation and burnout. Reshaping Ministry: Ministry is not confined to church walls; it can happen anywhere - whether teaching in a school or simply being present for someone in need. The Pain of Transition: Both pastors and their families carry deep emotional scars during church transitions, but acknowledging and processing these feelings is key to healing. Proactive Pastoral Care: Churches should plan for pastoral transitions with intentionality, bringing in help and creating space for joy and healing, rather than letting the process turn solely into a business decision. Pull Quotes "You're not a failure. Mistakes happen, but they don’t define the Spirit of God or your calling." "We are believers in resurrection, and just like death brings new life, leaving ministry can lead to new beginnings." "Ministry isn't about the pulpit - it’s about being a godly influence wherever you are, whether that’s teaching at a school or working at Burger King." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Matt McGee and the conversation begins with ministry transitions. [00:50] Early Ministry Calling – Matt McGee shares his journey into ministry and how God led him to serve in the church. [06:18] Transitioning Out – Matt McGee describes the internal and external factors that led to his departure from church ministry. [11:23] The Breaking Point – A difficult leadership dynamic and unaligned values lead Matt to a crucial conversation with his pastor. [14:59] Aftermath of Leaving Ministry – Matt shares the emotional and practical challenges his family faced after his sudden departure. [19:16] Community Support Post-Ministry – How Matt's church community responded after he left, and the importance of maintaining healthy relationships. [21:30] Returning to Teaching as Ministry – Matt’s journey back into education, this time with a renewed sense of calling and mission. [25:29] Redefining Ministry – How stepping outside church walls changed Matt's perspective on ministry and service. [29:56] Last Service Podcast – The inspiration behind Matt McGee’s Last Service Podcast, which explores church closures and transitions. [33:42] The Importance of Pastoral Care in Transitions – How church leaders can approach closures with care and attention to the emotional needs of their congregation. [36:58] Encouragement for Pastors in Transition – Matt offers words of wisdom for pastors facing their final service, reminding them they are not failures. [42:06] Conclusion – Matt McGee shares where listeners can find The Last Service Podcast and other resources.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Jordan Whilden is doing through MinistryHub by going to: https://ministryhub.org/  Episode Summary What happens when you step away from the calling you’ve always known and venture into the unknown? Jordan Whilden found himself at that crossroads, leaving behind nearly a decade of church ministry for an uncertain future in the marketplace. But this episode of Life After Ministry is not just about leaving; it’s about rediscovering purpose, redefining ministry, and understanding that God's calling often transcends job titles. Jordan's journey from pastor to CEO of Ministry Hub reveals how stepping away from a church role doesn’t mean stepping away from serving the Kingdom. In this episode, Matt Davis talks with Jordan about the anxiety that comes with such a leap, the lessons learned, and how God continued to use his gifts in new, impactful ways. For anyone wrestling with the question, "Is there life after ministry?" - Jordan’s story offers hope, clarity, and insight. Key Takeaways Transitioning Well: When stepping out of vocational ministry, it’s essential to take time for self-reflection and healing before jumping into the next chapter. A New Kind of Ministry: Jordan’s experience shows that leaving church staff doesn’t mean leaving ministry. There are ways to serve the Kingdom that may have even broader impacts. A Pastor’s Heart, Reimagined: Even when Jordan stepped into the marketplace, he carried the heart of a pastor, finding new ways to shepherd leaders through Ministry Hub. Building Clarity: It’s crucial to understand your strengths, desires, and God’s calling before leaping into a new career - clarity leads to thriving. Supporting Transitions: Ministry Hub focuses on helping pastors and churches navigate transitions effectively, recognizing the unique needs of both sides in today’s job market. Pull Quotes "As soon as I stepped into the marketplace, there was a breath of fresh air - freedom I didn’t realize I needed." "Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean you leave ministry; I found a way to invest more in the Kingdom in a broader way." "The goal is to land in a place where you thrive - where you can be the most fruitful in your calling." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jordan Whilden, founder and CEO of Ministry Hub. [00:10] Early Ministry Career – Jordan discusses his calling into ministry, starting as a high school pastor and moving into discipleship roles. [01:59] Decision to Leave Church Ministry – Jordan explains the factors that led him to leave his pastoral role, including burnout and church culture changes. [04:02] The Fear of Transition – The emotional and practical challenges of leaving ministry, and how Jordan navigated his “day zero” in stepping away from vocational church work. [05:14] Life After Ministry – Jordan reflects on his first Sunday post-ministry and the process of finding a new church home. [08:13] The Birth of Ministry Hub – How Jordan’s passion for connecting people and creating systems led to the development of Ministry Hub. [11:54] Serving Pastors in Transition – Jordan shares insights on what pastors look for when transitioning out of ministry, and how Ministry Hub supports them. [13:42] Serving Churches in Transition – Ministry Hub’s innovative approach to helping churches find new leaders through scalable, flexible staffing solutions. [17:26] Encouragement for Leaders in Transition – Jordan gives practical advice to pastors in transition, from crafting clear resumes to knowing their personal calling. [20:56] Redefining Ministry Beyond the Church – How Jordan sees his current work with Ministry Hub as a broader way to serve the church and the Kingdom. [23:45] How to Connect with Ministry Hub – Jordan shares how pastors and churches can connect with Ministry Hub for help in transitions and staffing.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Jeremy Stalnecker is doing through the Mighty Oaks Foundation by going to: https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/ Episode Summary  Imagine coming home from leading Marines on the battlefield in Iraq, only to feel lost and frustrated while trying to get church volunteers to clean a bathroom. The intensity and mission-driven focus of war collide with the quieter challenges of ministry life in ways that can lead to emotional turmoil. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine officer turned pastor, to discuss how transitioning out of the military and into ministry nearly destroyed him. Jeremy shares how misaligned expectations, hidden trauma, and identity loss can derail even the most driven leaders - and how a balance of grace, truth, and time helped him navigate those life-altering transitions. Together, they explore how to rediscover purpose, even when life feels like it's falling apart. Key Takeaways Identity Shift: Transitioning from military life to ministry was overwhelming for Jeremy, revealing how tied his identity was to his role in the Marines. Lack of Intensity in Church Ministry: The shift from the high-stakes environment of the military to the slower pace of church life left Jeremy feeling frustrated and disconnected from the mission. The Power of Honest Confrontation: A pivotal moment came when Jeremy's pastor confronted him about his behavior, helping him realize that the problem started within, not with external circumstances. Seeking Guidance: Transition requires mentorship and guidance from those who’ve walked the path before - a crucial element Jeremy wished he had during his shift from the Marines to ministry. Ministry Beyond the Church Walls: Jeremy's work with Mighty Oaks Foundation demonstrates how ministry can thrive outside the church setting, helping veterans and first responders find healing through faith. Pull Quotes "Everything I had ever wanted to be a part of, I had done - and then I was leading church staff meetings, trying to wrangle volunteers. It was a whole different world." "The reasons for your behavior may be valid, but they’re not excuses. You can’t justify the way you're acting, no matter what you’ve been through." "Your calling may change locations, but the gifts God gives you are without repentance - they’ll follow you wherever you go." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jeremy Stalnecker, discussing the transitions from military service to ministry. [00:15] Military Service and the Iraq War – Jeremy recounts his time as a Marine officer and his experience during Operation Iraqi Freedom. [02:15] Transition from the Marines to Ministry – Jeremy describes the challenge of shifting from combat to church staff life, feeling out of place and frustrated. [06:46] The Struggle in Ministry – The tension between military urgency and church work led to anger and personal turmoil, both at home and in church staff meetings. [09:55] Confrontation with the Pastor – Jeremy's pastor confronts him about his behavior, offering both support and a challenge to change. [12:15] Turning Point – A key turning point where Jeremy takes time off to reflect and begins to recognize the internal issues driving his actions. [14:27] Becoming a Senior Pastor – Jeremy transitions into a senior pastor role, facing new challenges and personal growth in the process. [15:55] Moving from Senior Pastor to Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy shares how he transitioned into his current role at Mighty Oaks, blending his military and ministry backgrounds. [18:34] Navigating a Smooth Transition – Practical advice on how Jeremy managed his transition out of pastoral ministry into nonprofit leadership. [21:22] Ministry in Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy explains how Mighty Oaks helps veterans and first responders heal through faith and how his pastoral skills apply in his current role. [24:49] Pastoring Beyond the Church – Discussing the concept of pastoring as a role, not just a title, and how Jeremy continues to pastor in a different capacity. [28:40] How to Connect with Mighty Oaks – Jeremy shares where to find more information on Mighty Oaks and how to get involved or refer someone in need of help.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work John Opalewski is doing at Converge Coaching by going to: https://convergecoach.com/  Episode Summary Imagine achieving what seems like ministry success on the outside - leading a growing church, serving a vibrant congregation - while internally battling crippling anxiety, sleepless nights, and the haunting thought of leaving it all behind. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with John Opalewski of Converge Coaching to explore how ministry leaders can hit their breaking point despite outward success. John shares his personal journey of going from thriving youth pastor to suicidal depression as a senior pastor, and the hard-won lessons about self-care, boundaries, and the crucial role of mental health in ministry. Together, they tackle the question: how can pastors prevent burnout and find lasting fulfillment in both ministry and life? Key Takeaways Workaholism and Neglect: Many pastors fall into the trap of overworking, neglecting their personal health, friendships, and boundaries, which often leads to burnout and depression. The Power of Honest Conversations: Addressing difficult emotions like anger and setting clear boundaries in ministry are vital for long-term emotional and mental health. Support from the Church Board: While a pastor’s well-being is their own responsibility, church boards can support this by providing resources like counseling and coaching. Depression Doesn't Define You: Depression isn't the end of your story. There are paths to recovery, healing, and a healthier way to live and serve in ministry. There is Life After Ministry: Ministry may take new forms, but the pastoral calling can continue beyond the pulpit, even in marketplace roles or other creative avenues. Pull Quotes "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus - it comes from chasing people or ideas that never seem to come to fruition." "Depression is not the final chapter in your story. There’s a way out, and it starts with finding a safe place to share." "Your calling follows you wherever you go. It may look different, but it never leaves you." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt welcomes John Opalewski to discuss his ministry journey and transition. [00:33] Early Calling into Ministry – John shares how he found his call to ministry through discipleship. [02:44] Entry into Pastoral Ministry – John describes his path to becoming a lead pastor and how it lacked preparation for the emotional challenges. [05:40] Challenges as a Lead Pastor – The immense pressure of being a senior pastor at 29, with a lack of boundaries and emotional maturity. [06:31] The Impact of Anger and Boundaries – How John's inability to manage anger and set boundaries led to emotional damage. [11:43] Role of the Elder Board in Supporting Pastors – John reflects on how boards can create space for preventive care for pastors’ mental health. [14:28] John's Breakdown – John recounts the moment he fell into suicidal depression, despite outward success in ministry. [19:38] Deciding to Leave Ministry – After two years of recovery, John decides to step down as lead pastor. [21:47] Transitioning into the Marketplace – John's surprising peace after leaving ministry and entering the corporate world. [24:21] Being Called Pastor After Stepping Down – John shares his mixed emotions when people continued to address him as “pastor” after he left. [25:45] Founding Converge Coaching – How John’s transition led to starting Converge Coaching to help pastors prevent burnout and stay healthy. [28:47] The Growing Need for Pastoral Care – John highlights the staggering burnout rates among pastors and the importance of coaching and support. [31:57] Words of Encouragement – John speaks directly to pastors facing burnout or depression, offering hope and guidance. [34:35] How to Connect with Converge Coaching – John explains the simple on-ramp to getting help through Converge Coaching. [35:59] Is There Life After Ministry? – John reassures listeners that ministry doesn't end after stepping away from the pulpit—your calling continues in new forms.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/   What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling? In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him. Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership. How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts? This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls. Key Takeaways Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling. Pull Quotes "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable." "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me." "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry. [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation. [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership. [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift. [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors. [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity. [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders. [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations. [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management. [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance. [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church. Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/ Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/