Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support the podcast, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion. Today, we’re talking about authenticity, and Gissele: We’re talking to Alexander Kopelman, who’s a writer, social entrepreneur, advocate, and coach who has been devoted 40 years to advancing social justice and personal empowerment. As the founding president and CEO of Children’s Arts Guild, Kopelman helped create and grow a nonprofit organization that supports children in exploring and developing their authentic selves. Kopelman has authored and co-authored 10 books, including For Real!, helping children remain their authentic selves in a limiting world. He lives in New York City with his wife, daughter, and very small dog. Please join me in welcoming Alex. Hi, Alex. Alex: Hi, thanks very much for having me on.[00:01:00] Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being on the show because this is such an important topic in terms of authenticity and how we can cultivate that in children. I was wondering if you could get started by telling the audience a little bit about how you got into this work. Alex: sure. It’s really, very much a life’s work and, very personal to me. I, grew up in the Soviet Union when there was still such a thing until I was 13 years old, and came to the United States as a refugee, not knowing any English. Um, and the process of, creating an identity as a teenager in a new language really gave me, I guess a glimpse into, how choiceful identity is and, the kinds of decisions we make as we, think about who we are, share who we are with other people, and, find our way in the world, and in the story that we tell ourselves about our own life [00:02:00] and, the people around us. Gissele: Yeah. Uh, you know, your story resonated so deeply with me because I had a very similar immigration experience. So my sister and I and our family came to Canada from Peru, and I came when I was 10. And I saw the journeys that my sister and I both took. So for me, I completely erased everything that was different ’cause it wasn’t popular to be Hispanic when I immigrated to Canada. Gissele: You know, now it’s, like, cool and… But when I immigrated, it was like, it was weird, or it was different. And I wanted so desperately to belong, I completely erased my culture. And my sister sort of took the other path, which was she actually held onto it so tightly, and I found that she had experienced bullying because it was different. Gissele: and so I so resonated with your story because it reminded me of my experience. And we do so much to wanna belong, right? It’s so ingrained in us to wanna belong, but to our own detriment. And it took me a long time for me to come back to that culture to [00:03:00] embrace those aspects of myself. were you able to keep aspects of your culture, or did you find that you completely, you know, 180 like I Alex: I had a similar,experience to yours. You know, people ask me, “Oh, do you still speak Russian?” And I do, but, you know, I have to, uh, preface it with that I speak Russian the way a 13-year-old speaks Russian. And, I made a choice.to me it was very much about either I could become fluent in English, which also equated in my mind to being, indistinguishable, that I would, I would not be standing out, which was very important. Alex: or I could hold onto some Russian and some Russian culture, and I went full on to being, uh, as fluent as I could be, as not Russian as I could be. there’s a backstory there because growing up Jewish in the Soviet Union, was, very much about being an [00:04:00] outsider. we were considered an ethnic minority. Alex: Um, we had, our ethnicity stamped in our passports. we stood out because we are dark, dark hair and dark skinned, and we were called names on the street by people who didn’t know us, for being Jewish. So there was a real sense of, the danger that goes with being an outsider. and then I arrived in the United States and I was suddenly a white guy. Alex: Um, and you know, I also didn’t speak English. my definition of being Jewish was very different from the definition of being Jewish here. Alex: so it continued this process of all the ways in which being, an outsider Was undesirable. So I went about trying to be as American as I could possibly be. Alex: and as I said, as indistinguishable as possible. Gissele: Yeah. Let’s talk about your path back to authenticity. [00:05:00] one of the things I noticed in general, when we try so hard to belong, we can sometimes violate our own values, our own humanity in the desperation just not to be different. What helped you come back to being more authentically yourself and actually wanna do work on authenticity? Alex: You know, it was coming to the realization sometime in my probably mid-20s that I was completely lost in my life. I had no idea who I was, what I wanted, how to want things, how to go about getting the things I wanted. Um, and part of what I identified at that point was that the– my relationship with being a man was a big aspect of that sense of being lost. Alex: I did not understand what it [00:06:00] meant to be a man. I, in many ways, felt ashamed of being a man, rejected, what I believed it meant. so I went about searching for that part of myself, where I could feel comfortable, in this fundamental way that I, I did not have a choice. I could not… Alex: so I, found, a men’s group through The Mankind Project, which is, now an international organization that sponsors Alex: men’s Alex: weekends around the world. Alex: Uh, there are now, I think, 20,000 men who’ve done one of those weekends, and what I found particularly useful was, the group that I was connected with after, the weekend. Alex: I’ve been a member of that group for 25 years, and that’s been transformative because it allowed me the safe space to think about, what my story was and how I felt about it, and to [00:07:00] see other men struggling with similar issues. And for us, really, the similar issues was just the fundamentals of feelings of, how difficult it is for us as men to experience and express basic feelings. Gissele: Mm, mm. I love that you said that, and it’s so fundamentally true. I think as a society, we’ve done such a huge disservice to our boys. I have one of each. I have a boy and a girl, and what I saw was a world that basically did not allow boys to engage in closeness without sexuality and,engage in dealing with difficult emotions that were beyond anger. And so if you limit the scope of which people can feel, I think you get what we see in the world, which is why I think your work is so important. And in particular, I think it’s important because the messaging that [00:08:00] I feel that children get in general is about belonging and conforming than it is about authenticity. Gissele: Can you talk a little bit about, how systems are impacting our children right now, especially our boys? Alex: Yeah. You know, I think We’re all trapped in this way of thinking about childhood and children that we’ve kind of evolved, and I think a lot of us recognize that it’s not working very well, and yet we don’t quite know what to do about it. I think that Alex: that conflict between belonging and authenticity is somehow baked into this conception of childhood, and it doesn’t have [00:09:00] to be. Belonging is a fundamental need. We are social creatures. We depend on others, not just in our childhood, but throughout our lives. Interdependence is just part of being human. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Alex: children and children’s development, it’s particularly important because in early childhood particularly, that developmental partner who serves as a mirror is critical to the way that we understand ourselves and ourselves in the world. And so if that mirror is distorted, if what we get from the mirror is the need to satisfy the adult’s needs rather than to listen to our own needs and satisfy those and ask for and have our needs met, that becomes a very difficult bind [00:10:00] for children to navigate. Alex: There was this lovely book that- helped me think about this, that I found probably 25 years ago, called “The Betrayal of the Self.” So the idea of, cutting off from parts of ourselves in order to get our needs met by others, can start very early, and it is very, very damaging to the way that we are in the world. Alex: And if you put the messaging of, gender socialization, of, expectations from society in general into the mix, what we learn to do is to listen to everything from outside of ourselves rather than our own inner voices. And if that continues, the inner voice gets pushed further and further down, and it is much more difficult to find. Alex: And it creates, conflict that is, um, [00:11:00] outside our field of vision, and, we begin to act on things that w-we don’t even understand where they’re coming from. so I think that’s fundamental, and a lot of that is, is also built into our systems. You know, our education system is a good example. Alex: And I’m referring to the one here in the States, but I think that education systems around the world have a common trait that we see children as raw material that is used to create the widgets that our economies need, right? we’re thinking more about what the labor force requirements are than about who are the human beings in our classrooms. Alex: And, you know, this is a vast generalization. There are wonderful schools that approach this stuff very differently, but for the most part, in general, we tend to treat children as incomplete human beings who are just on their way to [00:12:00] becoming human. And that’s a very strange message if you think about it, right? Alex: and we do it all the time, in the most innocuous ways possible. You know, that question of “What are you going to be when you grow up?” can be really challenging because what we really want to be finding out is, “Who are you now?” Gissele: Ja. Gissele: Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja. Ja. Alex: So- Gissele: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I resonated with everything you said. I think I’ll start with when you are taught to minimize your own voice, your own perspective, especially if it doesn’t align with what your parents believe. Gissele: Or I think, you know, when you’re expected to regulate yourself and your emotions so that your parents can be okay instead of having them regulate themselves and help you co-regulate, it starts the journey of what I’m supposed to not feel. And then you go to systems such as the school system, which, focuses on, conformity, right? Gissele: It focuses on [00:13:00] there’s one way, a primary way of doing things, and any sort of diversity, including children who can’t sit for eight hours a day, is bad. And so from my perspective, that is really the beginning of isms, right? Like the othering, that if you’re not conforming to how this structure, then you don’t fit. I wanted to ask, ’cause you talked about the need for belonging. How do you balance belonging with authenticity? Alex: Well, in part it’s finding the communities where you belong as your authentic self. Alex: And a lot of our work, because we really are focusing on adults, is to help people think about how to create environments and ecosystems that are welcoming to children as they are authentically, Alex: um, and where they feel that they belong as fully themselves. Alex: And, the one [00:14:00] caveat I want to make sure I touch on is that sometimes people misunderstand what we mean by authenticity. I don’t mean being unfiltered at all times and just, spewing everything that’s going on in my head Gissele: Yeah, Gissele: yeah. Alex: 24 hours a day. You know, authenticity for us is the awareness that I have a story and that everybody else has a story, and that we need to find ways Alex: to have those stories coexist and ideally amplify each other and create an even better communal story. Alex: so empathy and awareness of other people is an critical part of what I consider authenticity. and that means having a [00:15:00] filter. That means having situational awareness and that- It’s not that I cut away from parts of myself, but that only certain parts of myself are necessary in any particular situation. Gissele: Hmm. Agreed. I was curious as to what you would say to someone that doesn’t really know who they are. Like, what would be the starting point? because I know that in my own journey, I’ve been through phases where I didn’t really know, who am I really? I noticed all the conditioning. Some of the things I wanted was based on what I thought I should want rather than what I really wanted, and so that’s a little bit dizzying. So what would you say to someone who’s like, “I don’t really know who I am. How can I begin that exploration?” Alex: Well, I think that what you just said is, a great place to start. It’s noticing the expectations that we might have internalized and to, interrogate them a little bit. You know, i-i-is this what I actually want? and if [00:16:00] not, when did I start believing that I wanted this? And, tracing it back to, there’s usually a story to that as well. Alex: it’s not necessarily I don’t know who I am. it might be I don’t know who I am right now. The things that fit me a year ago may not fit today because we evolve. And part of the reason that we talk about supporting children and exploring and developing their authentic selves is really about developing a relationship and the tools for that lifelong exploration. Alex: ‘Cause the self is not a static thing. It’s not like I, you know, at 13 discover who I am and then I’m going to be that person throughout. Um, so I think that’s also key is finding out who am I right now? what are the parts of me that are, stepping forward? What are the parts of me [00:17:00] that I wish would be a little bit more prominent? Alex: One of the, one of the activities that I love in the book is, creating the celestial map of your inner universe. And the questions it asks are, you know, what parts of you shine brightly all the time? What parts of you can only be seen when, there are certain conditions? Alex: what are the black holes where, you know, you can feel the power, but you don’t really understand them that well? so, doing that kind of exploration, a lot of it is about, pausing and asking questions With the belief that we have the power to change. We always have the power to choose. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Alex: I think that the hardest, I think, for us are moments where we feel stuck, where, we feel that we are at the mercy of external factors that we really have no control over. Gissele: Yeah. Have you ever had an experience where somebody who, [00:18:00] as they’re discovering their authentic selves, really faces a lot of fear? And what I mean is, like, for example, if you are from the LGBTQ community and realize that your gender identity is one that is non-normative, as they call that, use that word, right? you might not want to be your authentic self. It might be difficult for you because you might feel persecuted. What can help individuals who may be facing identities that maybe there’s an internal, judgment upon, right? like for example, there might be some internalized homophobia. Alex: Well, I think that it’s important to make the distinction between the internalized, judgments, which we do have the power to change, right? Because again, by interrogation and being with people who support us, we can learn to, shift the perspective that, I don’t have to dislike my– I’ll use my own example. Alex: I genuinely was ashamed of being male because I believed that there were all of [00:19:00] these really negative things about manhood. And the– probably the– Alex: best thing that ever happened, and it was a conscious effort, but the best thing that happened for me in men’s group is that I stopped feeling ashamed of being a man. Alex: And, after I stopped being ashamed of being a man, I also then could work on other places where I felt ashamed of myself, and ask whether I needed to or not, and wanted to. so that’s the internal work, and that’s, that we do have control over. There are real dangers out there. Iwe are, living in a time again when, being other is dangerous in a lot of places. Alex: so I think being realistic about, those dangers and being, protective o-oneself is important. that’s not being authentic. that’s taking care of your authentic self. Gissele: [00:20:00] Beautiful. Gissele: I was wondering if you could share your favorite story of the feedback you received from children around your program. ’cause there was a few stories there that were really good, like feedback from young people about, their ability to be their authentic self. Alex: You know, the one that still stands out for me was a story from very early on, when we started the, uh, programs for boys and girls, in after school. And we had a boy, in the program Alex: who Alex: literally hid behind boxes for the first, I don’t know, couple of weeks that he was in the program. And slowly, he saw, through experience that he was accepted for who he was. Alex: And, this was a boy who, he liked gymnastics, he liked dance. He, brought with him, I think some, internalized judgments, but also beliefs about how people saw him. And after two years in [00:21:00] our program, he was able to stand in front of a room full of, adults at one of our events and tell them about that experience of being afraid and talk about how… Alex: the way he put it is that, he likes girl things. so he was struggling with his gender identity and what that meant. and that being in the program made him feel first safe that he would be accepted, and through that safety, to learn to accept himself and feel more comfortable, and comfortable enough to the point where he could stand and talk to people about who he was and what he was comfortable, being and doing. Alex: And, and so that’s still one of the really meaningful moments for me, of Alex: seeing the transformation and hearing a child talk about what that meant to him. Gissele: Hmm. And I think that goes to demonstrate the value of your [00:22:00] program. Um, I remember when my daughter was little and we had a little birthday party and we invited both girls and boys, and I remember there was a little boy. And we had lots of different things. We had tiaras and balloons and I remember there was a little boy who, he was, her friend. Gissele: He was like very rough and tumble, and at the same time he wanted to take a tiara home. And, I remember the dad was really adamant… And this is not a judgment to this. this is just goes to the identities that we have forced on children. And the the dad was adamant that he was not gonna take anything that was girl related. Gissele: and the look of devastation on that kid, it really impacted me. And I, tried to talk to the dad and ultimately it was his decision. but it gets me thinking about all kind of those norms that we put on when really it’s just all fun and exploration. I wanted to go back to,you talked about being able to address your shame of being a man. What sort of things helped you address shame? Because To me, that really is the key to opening up, our [00:23:00] willingness to be more compassionate towards one another. Alex: You know, it, it was a long process and it was, creating the space to ask the questions of what was it I was really ashamed of Gissele: Hmm. Alex: did these beliefs come from? And what began to emerge was that there was a gap between the life I was leading and the experiences I’d had personally Gissele: Mm-hmm. Alex: from the beliefs that I carried with me from childhood. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Alex: And so once I could see that space between the two, I could say, “Well, which one would I choose?” So in a way, it goes back to this idea of Alex: having the Alex: power to live from our own experience and emotions rather [00:24:00] than, the beliefs and the ideas that we were taught as children. and that’s not a necessarily an easy thing to do. Gissele: No, it’s not. It takes Gissele: courage Alex: it does because Alex: There’s a form of separation in that, you have to choose yourself at the risk of, the connections of belonging, right? Because if, your, community still has those beliefs and judgments and I choose to believe something else, I am choosing to step out of community. Gissele: it can feel very lonely, right? Alex: it can. And I think it’s very important, to go back to your question about, um, you know, identities that, carry real danger in the world. it’s very important to have supportive communities in place as we do that work and we make those transitions so we’re not [00:25:00] doing this by ourselves. Alex: I just came back from, a summit on wellbeing of the, American Association of School Superintendents, and the motif for the summit was the real crisis in mental health, for children in this country. in some part at least, and in, in my opinion, to a large part, of young people feeling Alex: in their identities and not being able to find a community that supports them. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. And with social media too, you only see, curated versions of people’s experiences. I think people are starting to question Gissele: really who are really authentic people, and you see it. You see it, like the death of the guru, celebrity, now sort of, crumbling. Gissele: People don’t believe and don’t trust. but I think it’s part of the evolution of us going inward, [00:26:00] is why I think your work is so important. and the reason why I also in particular think your work is so pivotal is that I think some of the basis for racism and discrimination and so on is that fear, is the fear of nonconformity And I’ve mentioned this before in the podcast, but I love this quote by a comedian, Alok. they’re trans, and they talk about, the fact that they have found that people that are anti-trans one of the reasons is that they’re so inauthentic. so somebody who is just being authentically themselves because it doesn’t conform to them, because they’re needing to belong, they’re needing to fit in, it’s a threat. And so this is why your work on authenticity is so important, because to go back to who we really are, it does take a lot of unlearning. Alex: Well, to that point, I– with my very, very limited knowledge of neuroscience, The fear [00:27:00] is in part driven by our brains. our brains are wonderful tools for categorizing things and, Alex: they excel at the, at that job. They get very, uncomfortable when they can’t find a category, Gissele: Yeah. Alex: right? Alex: we sort of start to short circuit, and I think that experience of not being able to place, the pattern easily makes us so uncomfortable that it actually raises flight emotions or fright emotions, and we then respond with these very kind of fundamental, feelings of, doesn’t, doesn’t compute, doesn’t compute. Alex: So part of what I talk about when I talk about authenticity is also a return to finding our whole beings. I think that our, again, our systems have led us to believe that we live from the [00:28:00] shoulders up, and it’s all about the brain, and it’s all about the mind, and we’ve lost touch with the rest of the way that we experience the world. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Alex: children are really good at that, except that we kind of socialize it out Alex: of them. and we need to return to that. we need to return to being able to feel where feelings happen in our bodies. You know, that was one of the first things I had to learn in a men’s group is like, where do I… Alex: so somebody will ask you that question. “Well, where do you feel that in your body?” And I would stare at them blankly as like, “I don’t know.” Alex: But then if I listen for a little while, I do know. and the more we practice, the more attuned we get to how we experience everything in so many parts of ourselves. Alex: And, the brain then creates a story, and it puts all these, language symbols around it, which is wonderful because then we can talk about it, but that’s not the only story. and I think that’s really key to [00:29:00] reclaiming all of this. Gissele: Mm. Mm, mm, mm-mm. I wish I could put, a little bell that’s like, da-da-ding, like wisdom. Because, what you said about the nervous system andof us needing to categorize things, I think that’s fundamentally it. It’s the fact that, if I don’t know where this person belongs, then I may not know where I belong, and what does that say about me? and so the brain sort of goes into, “No, you have to fit into this box so that I can be comfortable, so that I know how you’re gonna behave.” And we live in a world where We’ve made a world so predictable, we think, right? we even wanna know what the weather is going to be. we need to know everything. But the truth of it is it’s not real, and as you see from the weather network, it’s not super 100% accurate. But, it’s sort of given us that false belief that things can feel safe because they’re predictable. And so if I know which box this person fits, then I can feel safe. And going to the concept of emotions, the need for us to learn how to emotionally regulate ourselves, [00:30:00] to be able to sit with those difficult feelings in being more heart-based, I think is really key. but it feels so uncomfortable. it can feel so dangerous. what helps individuals as they’re exploring those emotions and becoming more heart-based in staying with it instead of choosing to just eject and go back? Alex: Well, I think the weather metaphor is helpful. You know, our feelings are just like the weather, they pass. There’s always gonna the next feeling, right? Alex: I think what happens to us when we experience particularly uncomfortable feelings is that we think that they’re gonna be there forever, and they’re not. Alex: I make it sound simple, and it’s not. Again, it took me years and years and years in, in men’s group and, therapy to learn to… we talk about sitting with uncomfortable feelings. I think that there’s a part [00:31:00] of the brain kicking in and saying, “I’m gonna solve this.” Alex: And often there’s nothing to solve. We just have to be with what’s uncomfortable. the other point I wanted to touch on when you were talking about prediction, it’s an illusion. we think we can predict based on where we put a person in our categories, but people are inherently unpredictable. Alex: So even someone we might think we understand is likely to surprise us sooner or later.and I think that if we develop the superpower of being self-regulated, the surprises are not so scary. they can be exciting. we can approach everything with curiosity, and we don’t get rocked every time something unexpected happens. Gissele: yeah. Alex: and that’s another part of [00:32:00] authenticity. When we’re grounded in our own selves and we feel secure in ourselves, what happens around us becomes much more tolerable. Gissele: Yeah, very true. A-and I also agree that it takes work. It takes Gissele: courage. It takes you showing up every single day. it takes, making different decisions, at least it has for me. I can’t make decisions out of fear anymore. I choose to make decisions out of love, out of openness. Even though it feels uncomfortable at times, I know I won’t be there forever. It’ll pass. J-just a couple more questions. My… Gissele: The first one is, what’s your definition of self-love? Alex: I guess for me it’s having a kind voice in speaking to myself. Alex: having a sense of humor and a sense of curiosity, and, empathy. Um, it’s not easy being us. Alex: Yeah. Alex: And, um, you know, I think [00:33:00] that when we start with empathy for ourselves, it’s a whole lot easier to be empathetic towards other people. Gissele: Very, very true. last question: Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Where can they find your book? When’s it coming out? Alex: the book is coming out on, June 9th. It’s called “For Real: Helping Children Remain Their Authentic Selves in a Limiting World.” the easiest place to find information about the book is, um, on the book website, which is forrealbook.org. and then if people are interested in working with us more broadly with programming, partnerships and so on, we are launching, the Authenticity Works Initiative, which is designed to bring these ideas to communities, all over the world ideally, eventually. Alex: and the website for that is authenticityworks.org. Gissele: Ah, thank you so much, Alex. Please go out and get the book when it comes out, and thank you so much for all the incredible work that you’re doing. I truly believe in [00:34:00] the power of authenticity in helping us actually create a more loving and inclusive world. So thank you to everyone who tuned into another episode of Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: See you soon. Alex: Thank you very much

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Choosing love after the unthinkable. Gissele: Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And we’d also like to take an opportunity to thank Yorkton Film Festival for voting our podcast Best Podcast Nonfiction for 2026, and Latin Fest Best Latin Podcast for 2026. Scarlett: Wow Gissele: Scarlett Lewis is the founder of Choose Love Movement, a non-for-profit whose programs have reached millions of children and educators across all 50 US states and 135 countries. Following the tragic loss of her son Jesse in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings, she developed award-winning programs that teach people of all ages essential life skills rooted in courage, gratitude, forgiveness, love, and compassion. Gissele: Scarlett is also the author of several books, including Nurturing Healing Love and From Sandy Hook to the World, and her work extends into schools, [00:01:00] homes, communities, foster care, corrections, and youth programs. Recognized with numerous honors and awards and featured by many major media outlets, she continues to speak internationally about the healing, resilience, and power of choosing love. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Scarlett Lewis. Gissele: Hi, Scarlett. Scarlett: Hi. So happy to be here. Thank you. Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. Your story is so powerful. I was wondering if you could get started by letting the audience know for those who might not know about Sandy Hook, a little bit about Sandy Hook and what happened to your son, Jesse. Scarlett: Yes, absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me and introducing this to your audience. It’s really exciting. So on December 14th, 2012, so that was 13 years ago, my six-year-old son was murdered in his first grade classroom alongside 19 of his classmates and six educators in what is still the worst mass shooting in an elementary school in the US Scarlett: after that, [00:02:00] I realized that what happened was 100% preventable . I just knew that inherently, and it turns out that is accurate. And w- I decided that I would spend the rest of my life in search of how we can keep our kids safe and well. So that was the beginning of the Choose Love movement Gissele: When you say that you believe there was 100% preventable, what do you mean by that? Scarlett: I mean that in every case in every school shooting, there are always signs. and other people had feelings and saw issues that went unaddressed. And the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting is no different. There were signs and things that were happening along the way. Scarlett: One of the things that really bothered me personally in this situation in my own son’s murder, was that there was [00:03:00] never a motive assigned to that school shooting. And a lot of times if you follow these things there aren’t motives that are identified, and that really bothered me because I kept thinking, “If you don’t know why somebody is doing what they’re doing, how can you solve it?” Scarlett: And it turns out we haven’t. And so what I did was look at what was currently in place, and a lot of times in our current system, we are very reactive and we focus on the problems. So even in school shootings, if you look at the Department of Homeland Security’s Pathway to Violence, it starts with a grievance, and then it escalates up, ideation, preparation, a few other steps to the attack end. Scarlett: We’re very focused on the attack end with a billion-dollar industry that has grown up around active shooter drills and hardening schools. And I looked at that and I thought it’s [00:04:00] interesting that we do that for other things too, as, as well as mental health and substance abuse.” And I thought, “Wow, if you shifted part of your focus,” because that’s very important. Scarlett: There are fires. We do have to put them out. But if we shifted some of our time, energy, and resources to the grievance end to address in a proactive and preventative way the root cause of the suffering, th- then we actually can reduce that suffering and potentially stop not only school shootings, but substance abuse and mental illness and so many of the other society issues of despair And so that’s where I’ve really focused my efforts because I saw that not many people were doing that. Scarlett: That’s not traditionally in our methods. And although I will say, great news, it [00:05:00] is becoming more of a focus, and really because we’ve seen nothing else is working. When Jesse was murdered, I had lots of opportunity to speak on behalf of lots of different initiatives that were going on before my son’s murder, and I thought, “You know what? Scarlett: No thank you,” because those haven’t worked. They didn’t work for my son, as well as his shooter by the way. And flash forward 13 years, they’re not working now. So I think a lot is in addressing the root cause. And this is a simple concept, but simple isn’t easy. It does take effort, and it takes all of us. Scarlett: But you know what? We benefit as individuals as well as a society. We’re responsible for the world that we’re leaving our kids. And so this is actually a way that everyone can get involved to help create a safer, more peaceful, and loving [00:06:00] world Gissele: I love everything that you said. There’s so much to unpack. I think the first thing I thought about was the fact that in many systems, not just like you said when you deal with a school shooter, even with women and violence the police wait until something has actually happened in order to offer protection. Gissele: So we wait for something to occur and then react instead of being proactive. The other thing I thought about is the fact that like you mentioned, there’s a lot of invisible suffering that happens. And the school shooter, I think his name was Adam Lanza and and all these other children that are going through all of this suffering basically unnoticed ’cause there was lots of instances where that potential could have been stopped, but it wasn’t, Scarlett: Oh, Gissele, can I even make, can I mention something there? Gissele: yes, please do Scarlett: When you say that, that’s very profound because in my research I’ve also spoken to school shooters because I wanna ask them what I don’t think anyone else is asking, “How did [00:07:00] we fail you?” Gissele: Oof. Yeah. Scarlett: You’re a Gissele: And what was their answer? Scarlett: You’re a child, in essence, and you weren’t born a mass murderer So how did we fail you along the way? Scarlett: What were the needs that you had that weren’t met? And with all the conversations that I’ve had, I can boil it down to one thing. It’s that they didn’t feel seen. And if you think about it, that takes a bit of effort. Instead of saying as I walk by you, “Hey, Gissele, how you doing?” And walking right past, it means pausing. Scarlett: It means being present in the moment, looking at you, hopefully in the eyes, and saying an open-ended statement s- to make you realize that I see and value you. If we treated every interaction as a sacred occurrence, which it really is, it would change humanity. And I think this is so [00:08:00] important. What I’m talking about are not difficult things. Scarlett: They’re really actually very simple, and they’re also led by a message that my six-year-old son left on our kitchen chalkboard shortly before his murder that I found after, which profoundly changed my life and also informed everything that I’ve done every day since. Those three words are nurturing, healing love. Scarlett: Phonetically spelled, because he was in first grade and just learning to write. I didn’t walk around saying those words. He wasn’t learning it in school. I believe that it was a message that came through him. But I immediately recognized it as the solution, and we know through now decades of research that connection or lack thereof is at the root of almost all suffering, including school shootings, mental illness, [00:09:00] substance abuse. Scarlett: And there are things that we can do to facilitate connection and teaching kids these essential life skills is so vitally important. B- in essence, giving them an invisible tool belt that they can use for the rest of their life to be able to learn, grow, and be strengthened through painful events. Scarlett: Because we’re gonna be experiencing pain. That’s part of the human condition. Nobody escapes it. It’s something I have in common with every single listener out there. Physical, mental, and emotional pain, we’ve all had it. We’ve all had our hearts broken. Maybe just a little crack, maybe shattered like mine. Scarlett: But in actuality, that pain has a purpose. It’s there to help us grow. There’s a science behind that as well. And if we don’t know that, we fear pain [00:10:00] because nobody wants to be in pain. And we do everything that we can to resist and avoid or w- maybe even numb ourselves. Scarlett: But in reality, if we can raise kids that understand that pain has a purpose, that are present with those difficult feelings, which is getting harder and harder with cell phones that give us an immediate dopamine hit through scrolling. But if we can be present with it and get curious about what that pain is offering us and learn and grow from us, and then go through this formula that we’ve developed to let the painful parts go, but to bring forward that wisdom we benefit from it, believe it or not Gissele: Yeah. Absolutely. I wanted to mention the fact that there are many systems that we have, including the school system, that really doesn’t allow the getting to know each and every child. It’s like we have many systems where there’s so many people that are invisible, and I just wanna reiterate what you said, which [00:11:00] is this doesn’t take a lot. Gissele: Sometimes it’s as small as an eye contact or asking someone how they’re doing that might make the difference between that person feeling connected or disconnected. But you’re right. We’ve created a world right now that there’s so much disconnection and We really struggle with having those difficult conversations and those difficult feelings, and you can see it in how we’re canceling one another. Gissele: But that’s really the only way that we’re gonna get through any of the isms, through being able to lean into one another and be able to regulate ourselves enough to be able to sit and get curious. Because it seems to me that you got curious about the perpetrator of that school shooting. Gissele: You got curious as to why that happened. Can you share a little bit about how you went from grief to that curiosity? Scarlett: Absolutely, and I think that’s a really important point. with the algorithms that are behind the phones now, we are just given, the [00:12:00] content that aligns with what our beliefs are right now, and we become even further and further divided. There’s fear that’s being seeded in that process, and so fear is driving that division. Scarlett: It’s actually narrowing our focus. If you look at what fear does to our brain, it’s very fascinating. It literally puts blinders on us so we have less tolerance to be able to handle other people’s views. So what is going on in our world right nowmakes sense because it’s being driven by an algorithm. Scarlett: But the beautiful thing is we are so much more powerful than that algorithm, but we do need to have awareness of what’s happening, and then a few skills and tools in our belt. And curiosity is so valuable, and here’s why. Because the way that our brain processes information, it comes in from our [00:13:00] five senses, and it goes into a little region in our brain called the thalamus. Scarlett: The thalamus acts as a relay station, and it sends that information to our prefrontal cortex and our amygdala, which is our fear center. Here’s the thing. Our prefrontal cortex is where logic and reasoning and the understanding of right and wrong, and really the wisdom is here, as well as in the heart. Scarlett: The fear center is what keeps us safe. And so the fear center, for our safety, is four times faster at processing information than our prefrontal cortex. And if you look at it in context, that makes a lot of sense. So you’re walking along and you have a bear that comes out of the woods. Actually, yesterday I was walking and there was a raccoon that was weaving in the road. Scarlett: I did not have to pause, get curious about that situation to determine what should I do. My brain flipped me [00:14:00] around and I went the other way. So it makes sense if we’re in physical danger. But what happens it also has the same effect when we’re in what our brain deems to be emotional danger. What can happen is that our amygdala gets hijacked, and that information doesn’t get to our prefrontal cortex, where our highest and best selves are able to thoughtfully respond, where also the brake on our instinctual reactions is. Scarlett: That curiosity is key. And we all have triggers every day. It could be a look That triggers us. It can be a word, a situation. It could even be a memory that comes up a painful memory. And those triggers they’re happening in our amygdala, and the way to move through them to not be reactive, I say put up your metaphorical dukes if your life’s not in danger, is to pause. Scarlett: We call this the pause and the [00:15:00] choice moment. This is what we’re teaching kids all over the world, which is so incredible, and adults. Pause, take a brave breath. That restores your autonomic nervous system. It stimulates your vagus nerve, which wraps around every single organ, which it, there’s nothing you can do to bring calm on faster than a brave breath. Scarlett: And then you get curious. That curiosity stimulates the prefrontal cortex and allows for what we call a thoughtful response in love for maintaining your personal power in any situation, and not handing it over to the person who may have triggered you or hurt you. So in this sense, your question is, was about Adam Lanza. Scarlett: I understood that hurt people. And to me first of all, I looked around and I saw so much blame, finger-pointing, and fault-finding on Adam Lanza and his mom, Nancy Adam, by the way, killed [00:16:00] Nancy before he left that morning from the home that they shared to go back to the elementary school that he attended to perpetrate the crime. Scarlett: And I thought about that for a moment, and I thought there was so much blame going on, not just on Adam and Nancy, but on so many different things. And I thought, wow, the act of blaming is actually a way to not take responsibility ourselves. So in Scarlett: other words, Gissele, if it’s your fault, then I’m saying, “I’m the good guy.” Scarlett: And by the way, our brain looks for this narrative. “I’m the good guy. You’re the bad guy.” That means that it’s all your fault. But also it means that there’s nothing that I can do about it, that I’m a Gissele: Yeah Scarlett: And so I saw all of this, and it just didn’t make sense to me because I think maybe it’s because it’s the first time I’d ever sat quietly since I had kids, and I have a farm, and I had a full-time job. Scarlett: I’m a single mom. I [00:17:00] really do think I did all this thinking because I finally had nothing else to do in this moment leading up to Jesse’s funeral and then a little bit beyond. And I thought, “Wow so all these people are blaming these different things.” But in reality i- and I said this in the, in one of the first interviews I gave, I said, ” I take my part of the responsibility for what happened to my son in his school, in my community.” Scarlett: Blaming Adam Lanza and his mother yes, they’re 100% responsible for the choices that they made. Nancy paid for those mistakes that she made as did Adam. He killed himself after he murdered all those children when he heard the sirens coming. So I’m not saying that it’s not their fault but in reality, aren’t we all responsible for the world and the community that we live in? Scarlett: And if it was all their fault , then it would never have [00:18:00] happened before, but it did multiple times, and it would never happen again, yet we continue to have school shootings. I can’t even say they’re our new normal anymore. They’re part of our culture, and we expect them in fact, a parent told me over the weekend, this is just while I was traveling and speaking they said sending their child to school was like playing Russian roulette which I thought was so interesting. Scarlett: They said goodbye to their child, so many parents say this to me, and they hope that they see them when they come home at the end of the day. And I’m laughing only because of the irony. We have so much more power than to think that we’re playing Russian roulette with our children’s lives when we send them to school. Scarlett: to answer your question, I actually felt compassion for Adam, as well as his mom. First of all, she was a single mom. She was trying to deal with her son’s neurodiversity herself. She was [00:19:00] trying to get help from the school, and she really didn’t. And that’s really tough because I, and a whole bunch of other parents that I know, have been in her shoes and really received so much resistance from the school. Scarlett: To make me wonder, do we need to reshuffle our priorities? I always assumed that the school’s priority was my child’s safety , health, and wellbeing . But I found out that’s not necessarily the case. Now, I’m not saying anything about the educators or the administrators. I love them. I believe that they are our modern-day superheroes . Scarlett: My goodness, they show up every day. But I’m saying the whole system is broken in the priorities. I’ve experienced, and then witnessed finances first, and then liability second, and then I’m not [00:20:00] sure on which level our children’s priority is. But I believe that if our children’s priority was children as a priority were first, their safety, health, and wellbeing, we wouldn’t be where we are. Gissele: Yeah. I agree. It’s funny. I interviewed a mother whose daughter exhibited sociopathic tendencies and actually attempted to murder her sister. And she went in actually asked support of the system, and so many times, and she was told that, informally that they didn’t wanna diagnose her because then it would be a state problem. Gissele: and then they would have been financially responsible for her. And so I wanted to go back because I think you… Again, you said s- you’re sprouting such gold nuggets here that I don’t want the audience to miss it. The first thing is the fact that we’re all responsible for each other. Gissele: It’s easier to blame other people because that gives us a sense of that person’s dealt with. We can go back to sleep at night. We can feel safe.” But the truth of the matter is, it’s not until we address our own [00:21:00] fears, until we have the courage to get curious about people, to address our own mental health, to address our own difficult emotions, and then lean into one another and see each other as brothers and sisters, until we’re actually going to change things. Gissele: And I know from my own personal experience, fear is so difficult to address, especially if you grew up in a very fear-based environment. And every time I made a decision in fear, my world got smaller and smaller. And it was when I started to make decisions from courage that my world got bigger and bigger and bigger. Scarlett: Can I share something on that? Gissele: Yes, please do. Scarlett: Because literally I’m getting goosebumps. When I was sitting on my mom’s couch, she lives across town, right after Jesse’s murder, I had this feeling, even though I was so devastated, I thought I would die just from the pain, not that I wanted to harm myself, Gissele: Yeah Scarlett: had this other feeling, and I was trying to figure out what that was, and I [00:22:00] realized for the first time in my life I had no fear. Scarlett: And then I had this sort of like life review, and I looked back over all of the choices that I’d made. Every relationship, every job I’d ever taken was out of fear. And I promised myself I would not do that anymore, that I would act in courage, as you said. And, I was also realizing, I was, I, we were told within days that my six-year-old son had stood up to the shooter and sacrificed his life to save nine of his classmates. Scarlett: I, that was my example. I thought, “If my son could do that at six years old, then certainly I can use and dedicate the rest of my life to trying to live my life with that kind of courage to be [00:23:00] part of the solution, to not shy away from it,” as I had for s- for so long, just assuming that other people had children’s best interests. Scarlett: And I know they try, but I have to say, parents, no one cares about your kids like you do, and a lot of us are parents and we, that is a rally cry for us to get involved ourselves to make sure that our children are safe, that, to make sure that their safety, health, and wellbeing are prioritized. Scarlett: And I think, I, everybody was telling me, “You’ve been through the worst that a parent could ever experience,” and from talking to other parents since, it is not the worst. But you also can’t compare your grief. But I have tried to live my life with this courage, and actually that is why courage is our first character value in our formula because what I’ve found is that courage is like a muscle. Scarlett: You can [00:24:00] practice it to strengthen it, and I have to tell you that I… and it’s a lifelong process, by the way. I’m not perfect at it. I’ve been practicing for 13 years. But I am aware, m- much more aware than I was before and I do practice this courage muscle every single day, and it’s so important. Scarlett: And it opens up, as you said, Gissele, this whole other life that you didn’t even know was possible. It’s pretty amazing Gissele: Yeah. But it does take courage in the sense that, you have to be willing to face yourself and all of those emotions you haven’t wanted to address. But when you do, and you do that with a lens of compassion, you start to have compassion for other people’s behavior. You start to understand it more. Gissele: But it’s an interesting journey. I’ve seen it in my own family that when people make decisions out of fear, the world becomes smaller because then each subsequent decision is more and more fearful and more and more small. I wanted to go back to the comment about, the children and your son being a hero, [00:25:00] standing up for his fellow classmates. What else have you learned from children about love and what we could be doing better as adults around how we love each other? Scarlett: That’s such a great question because I have the honor of being able to go into classrooms. And, it’s so interesting when I work with little kids, they have such wisdom already inherently within them. And I’ll ask them questions like, ” What do you think someone is feeling when they’re mean to you?” Scarlett: And oh, hands immediately go up. They’re mad.” And I say, “Yes, they’re mad. But why do you think they’re mad ?” And they raise their hand immediately, “Because they’re sad.” And it’s Wow. Wow. They just know this inherently. and I’ve just realized this. I’m still learning and growing myself, but over the last few years, I really [00:26:00] think what happens from when they’re little to when we become older and we progress in age, we also progress in having experiences that are painful. Scarlett: And I believe that we armor up. And Gissele: Yeah Scarlett: I was gonna use my own situation, but it happens to few people. But what happens to everyone is betrayal, pain and hurt feelings. And I think what happens is instead of keeping our hearts open and being vulnerable and getting curious as to why that person is saying and doing what they’re doing, we armor up. Scarlett: And so we have this, what I’ve heard it called a bodyguard. I call it metaphorical dukes that we use as protection. and blame is part of that. Finger-pointing, fault-finding, victimization. But we know that can turn into helplessness. That can turn into hopelessness. Scarlett: [00:27:00] Hopelessness is the single most consistent factor in suicide and violence. I think that we need to remember that, and that’s why I developed this formula because that, this formula actually, it’s called locus of control, locus of our personal power. It actually returns our personal power back to us, which these little kids already have, where they understand, oh, if somebody’s saying or doing something mean, it’s coming from a point of pain within them. Scarlett: Because really we want love. We want connection. In fact, we need it to survive. Being mean is not conducive to connection. it is coming from fear, ultimately. Anger, hatred, resentment, revenge, a mask for fear. And so if we understood this, and this is what we teach, then we would look at these things these trigger points in us completely differently.[00:28:00] Scarlett: We would say instead of putting our dukes up and reacting in self-defense, and I’m saying maybe physically, but most often emotionally, we would pause, use that choice moment, pause- Take a brave breath. it’s not that it doesn’t incite pain or even fear. It does, and it should. can we get into managing emotions Gissele: Yes, please. Scarlett: B- because I think there’s a huge distinction that needs to be made. We don’t wanna manage emotions out of our kids, because emotions are how we navigate our environment, and they’re so beautiful and so important, and they teach us so much every single day about us. They’re so important, and I think we’ve been coming about them differently. Scarlett: But we can pause, and we can get curious, and we can consider why the other person… Remember that motive thing? Why the other person is saying or doing what they’re doing, and we can thoughtfully respond with [00:29:00] love from our highest and best self. Instead of responding like this, we can respond like this. Scarlett: so that’s really important. And if I can, just move straight into unpacking Gissele: Yes, Scarlett: power of emotions. I started thinking about this too. These are things that keep me up at night. These are the 3:00 AM thoughts that I have, okay? I’m thinking manage emotions. Manage emotions. We think about that, and we’re teaching our kids, manage those emotions. Scarlett: You have those hard emotions. It’s like red light, green light, right? Those negative emotions are the red light. Stop. Manage them into green. And to a certain extent, yes. However those red light emotions are so valuable. First of all, they can save your life. Second of all, that fear means you care, and Scarlett: You have to feel that to know, “Whoa, wait a minute. This is a situation that my boundaries are being violated. Somebody’s saying something that’s not true,” we need to have that [00:30:00] alert system is really important. That’s why I think it’s really important that we understand the difference between emotions and feelings Scarlett: Emotions are these automatic chemical washes that wash over our brain. Scarlett: They come and they go, and they’re really important. They never last. Even however difficult they may be, we can teach kids, “No, that is difficult. Listen. Get curious, and it will come and go.” Our feelings, now, this is where the cognitive triangle comes in, our thoughts that directly relate to our feelings then become our actions are different than emotions. Scarlett: So our feelings are what either keep an emotion going or use the information and get rid of the pain. You may have said something to me early on you don’t like the shirt that I picked out for this interview, and I would feel triggered. That trigger is saying, “Whoa, wait a minute. This is a situation. Scarlett: Is this maybe not a nice person, maybe not somebody that you wanna do a [00:31:00] podcast with, or who is this? What, what is going on?” I pause. I take a brave breath. I get curious as to why you might have said that, and I either say, “Oh, you don’t like this?” “No, I meant it’s a nice shirt.” “Oh, I misunderstood. Scarlett: It was my perspective that was off.” And then we move on. Or maybe I just say, “Oh, I know Gissele. I looked at what she does. She’s amazing. She’s got incredible messages that she gets out there. No,  It’s okay.” Maybe I’ll say something to her afterwards or whatever. My point is, my thoughts that directly relate to my feelings are whether I keep that sense of urgency going, that trigger, that it may become anger or resentment. Scarlett: That’s all my thoughts and feelings. And so if I can rectify that by saying something to you, takes courage, or maybe just letting it go and doing the mental process myself and releasing it. Maybe she’s having a bad day. Maybe she didn’t have her coffee this morning. Gissele: What is really important about what you said is [00:32:00] that it’s through our feelings and our thoughts, it’s us that keep those thoughts alive. And what I mean by that is if you and I have conflict over a shirt and, you address it in the moment, either you allow yourself to release it acknowledge the difficult emotions and release it or have the courage to say to me, “Hey, maybe it wasn’t your intention to be hurtful, but this is the impact of what you said around my shirt.” Gissele: It enables you to move on, but when we don’t do that because we don’t wanna address those difficult feelings, we just keep the thoughts alive. So five years from now you’ll still be thinking about the comment I may have said about your shirt. Scarlett: Not just keep it alive. This is what happens. So if I don’t have the understanding, I pause in my own mind, have the ability to process that hurt, here’s what can happen If I hold on to that slight It becomes a grievance. Remember the grievance that leads to the attack? Scarlett: So I might end this… obviously we’re talking about a shirt. [00:33:00] Who knows, how maybe emotionally harmed I am and how far I might take it. I might leave this podcast and I might call a friend and say, “Oh my God, have you heard of this girl Gissele? She does this podcast, and do you know the first thing she did was diss my shirt ?” Scarlett: And she’s “Oh my God, that’s awful. Have you read her comments And I’m like, “No, I didn’t do that, but I’m going to.” and so a grievance is after the fact, right? We can process things in the moment, but once it reaches a grievance, this is really important, once I have that conversation five minutes later, an hour later, a day later, it lodges in a different place in my brain. Scarlett: it goes to the pain Gissele: Yeah. Scarlett: And so the pain center, and now we’re getting into a little bit of addiction understanding, but when your brain registers pain, it tries to alleviate the pain. Our bodies are beautiful [00:34:00] pharmacies. I don’t think we don’t even know the extent that our bodies can be a pharmacy. So our brain says, “Ah, she’s in pain,” and so it releases dopamine. Scarlett: But in order to do that it, there is a revenge initiative that happens. So in other words, have an eye for an eye brain. A lot of people don’t understand this. This is new neuroscience. So in other words, I’m talking about you behind my back. This is gossip. Because I know that it would be hurtful to you what I’m saying, and I get pleasure in your pain. Scarlett: That’s why revenge is actually called the most dangerous addiction, because it’s the one in which we take pleasure in someone else’s pain. So I’m taking a little bit of pleasure, and I am being rewarded with dopamine. That’s, by the way, the same thing we get when we scroll, do drugs and the… here’s the important thing about this: it’s not healing. Gissele: No Scarlett: When I’m talking to my friend about you behind your back, it’s not healing, unless my friend [00:35:00] is saying, “Oh, wait a minute. She’s a wonderful person. I’ve just looked her up, and she’s great. I’m sure she didn’t mean it. Why don’t you just let it go and forgive,” right? Most friendships, though, have this sort of concept of this false sense of connection by joining in, right? Scarlett: Don’t you have the friendships… In fact, that was a conversation that I was having with a dear friend of mine on the way to work on the morning of December 14th. We were talking behind people’s backs, raging really together and one-upping each other on our stories. “Oh, this person is a jerk. Oh, you wanna know jerk? Scarlett: Let me tell you this.” And it’s one of the reasons why I thought, “Wow I don’t wanna fall into this trap,” because that trap only escalates the pain. It’s called a doom loop, a revenge loop. It only escalates. And then, once I get off the phone, the next time that memory comes up, in order to get [00:36:00] the same amount of relief, I need to up my revenge game. Scarlett: It’s very important because this is what leads to school shootings. And so we need to have this understanding to be able to stop it. And I’ll tell you what does stop it. I’ll tell you what the solution is, and the only thing that stops the pain center in the brain immediately, in the moment, is forgiveness. Scarlett: Oh, that opens up a whole other can of worms, doesn’t it? And it’s so interesting because when I started Choose Love, one of the character values in our formula is forgiveness. I have to tell you, I got so much resistance. First of all, I got resistance for the word love in the Choose Love movement, and love in the name of the program going into schools. Scarlett: Almost everyone was like, ” Ah, love? You’re gonna find resistance. Are you really sure that school’s a place to put that [00:37:00] i- ” The more resistance I got, the more I resisted really too. I thought, “Oh my gosh, we need to have love rolling off our tongues.” No, the want and need for love to love and be loved, that is what caused this. Scarlett: And so no I wouldn’t compromise on that. Now we have it on the end zone of the Super Bowl, so on the back of the helmets and… No, it’s, now we have, we see it in advertising campaigns, so that door’s been opened, which is great. So then forgiveness. and I wanted that to be one of our main character values in the formula. Scarlett: Oh my goodness, you can’t teach forgiveness. That’s way too lofty a topic. Kids are not gonna be able to understand forgiveness. And here’s the interesting thing. What I realized was- We as adults don’t understand forgiveness. Kids actually not only can learn it, it becomes the favorite tool that they have. Scarlett: And why? Because it still surprises me, the power of teaching [00:38:00] forgiveness. Why? Because they say it’s like a superpower. I’m using air quotes for those of you who are just listening. It’s like a superpower, and they say it feels so good to let it go. Forgiveness is a superpower, and it doesn’t mean what people think it means. Scarlett: It doesn’t mean that you’re condoning. It doesn’t mean that you’re forgetting. It doesn’t mean that you’re saying, “Oh, I was hurt, and it’s okay.” It’s never okay that you’re hurt. It simply means that I’ve processed the pain. I’ve reaped the benefits. I… By that I’ve harvested the gifts. I have learned from it and I’ve let that pain go. Scarlett: It no longer is lodged in my heart and mind. It no longer limits me. In fact I actually I actually take wisdom from it that I can share with other people to help them in their journeys. That’s what forgiveness means. It is a superpower, super tool. We know so much about what it does with the [00:39:00] brain and our bodies, and there are decades of research behind the benefits of forgiveness, and it just comes out getting stronger and stronger. Scarlett: And in fact, I will say it’s one of the most important things that I did in my own healing is forgiving Adam. I, and I said that I felt compassion for him, and I really did, and everything that I do every day is as much for, to honor my son’s life as it is for Adam and those kids out there right now that are suffering so much. Scarlett: Everything that I do is for them Gissele: So powerful. Oh, yeah, just so powerful. I wanted to make a comment because I’ve had other guests in the past on this podcast, like people that have done what you have done or had the courage to forgive and, have compassion for their perpetrators. And the biggest flak they get is from the people around them, which is so [00:40:00] interesting. Gissele: The need to punish, you were talking about the need for revenge, the need to hold onto that. it’s so interesting because that may make you doubt if you’re choosing the right thing, right? And especially if the people closest to you… But this is where what you were talking about is so important, where all of us are responsible for one another because hatred doesn’t work. It really doesn’t. Revenge doesn’t work. Scarlett: Hatred weakens me. I could have gone throughout my life hating and seeking revenge, and nobody would have, probably corrected me. But what does that do to me? And I had a 12-year-old son at the time, Jesse’s older brother, single mom. He’s looking to me to see how to be refined by this tragedy, not defined for the rest of his life. Scarlett: Do I model that for him? It certainly wasn’t joining an anti-movement, and ah, being angry and resentful, and no, absolutely not victimized. It was through forgiveness. Forgiveness [00:41:00] is the equivalent of personal freedom. Forgiveness allows you to move forward and learn from the event, and then take what you’ve learned to help other people. Scarlett: That only comes through forgiveness. And you’re right. Oh, my goodness. Yes, the resistance I got. I was not I would say popular person to say that I forgave, and so many people to this day resist. But I talk about it openly and honestly, and I understand that the journey of forgiveness is different for other people. Scarlett: I’m asked to speak to communities that have been devastated, and that’s the hardest thing that I do. And I remember in the beginning, the first time I was asked, I was thinking, ” Should I bring up forgiveness? They’ve just experienced this terrible thing. Is it too soon?” And I thought, “They’re asking me, and that’s part of my message.” Scarlett: i’m [00:42:00] seeding this power into children. Scarlett: So yeah, I think that I will. And I do bring it up, and I say I’m just offering it to you, and you do with it as you will. But please at least look into it and think about it.” Because the person that it benefits is not necessarily the person who did the crime. oftentimes in the case of school shootings, they’re dead. It was premeditated suicide They know that they’re gonna die. They want to die. They just wanna take out as many people as possible. it benefits you. You’re the benefactor, as well as your children and future generations, because we know that trauma passes down through generations. Scarlett: You benefit, so please become educated on this. You want the best for your children, of course you do, and that includes teaching them about forgiveness Gissele: Yeah. And what is so fundamental about your work is that nothing is gonna change [00:43:00] until we get curious and, until we truly understand what people that commit the crimes really need. We can arm ourselves all we want, we can do as many drills as we want, but until we actually care about the people who are doing this and understand why they’re doing it and support them and help them, love them, forgive them, and, find out what it is where we are dropping the ball, nothing is gonna change, Scarlett: Nothing is gonna change. Gissele: I was talking to someone who actually forgave her perpetrator for a sexual assault, and she was talking about the fact that all of the sexual assault literature is for women. It’s focusing on women. But until we figure out why these people are doing this, like what they need, what th- what they haven’t received, nothing is going to change. Gissele: And so this is where I think your work is so important and essential. Just a couple more questions ’cause I know you do have to get going. The first one is one of the things I’m really interested in is the process of rehumanization. I believe that we all have the potential to dehumanize and [00:44:00] rehumanize. Gissele: From all the people that you’ve spoken to, either in your podcast and in your work, is rehumanization possible, and what are the factors that help us reconnect to one another? Scarlett: That’s beautiful. I actually just gave a talk in Portugal on catalytic philanthropy, and I, part of that talk said that we’re all philanthropists. I think you said we’re caring for one another. But philanthropy, if you break down the root, is really love of humanity, Scarlett: That includes ourselves. So I think I think, yes, absolutely it’s possible, but it takes awareness and effort on a personal basis to become the best version of yourself, to put what I call your metaphorical dukes down, to start loving yourself. Scarlett: In fact, I call that the number one most important gift that we learn, not egotistical love, but literally loving and appreciating [00:45:00] yourself so that you can love and appreciate other people. It takes that pause, that sacred pause in what we call the choice moment between what happens and our response. Scarlett: It takes a little bit more discernment. It takes, and it will take, understanding the contempt that is being seeded amongst us via the news, the polarized news and social media. Once you start realizing the contempt that they’re trying to seed with these algorithms, I say they are trying, that these algorithms are seeding amongst us literally hatred of each Gissele: Yeah. Scarlett: I don’t know. I’ve seen comments wishing people dead and their children. Whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Once we understand the power that we have as individuals From our thoughts? That’s when we start to create a new world. [00:46:00] That’s when we start to understand that we have the power to create positive change. Scarlett: That’s the definition of hope. As a famous anthropologist, Margaret Mead, said, “It takes a small group of people to understand this and then to move forward with it.” And, you’re not a victim of anything. You are incredibly powerful, and I think that people need to understand this and I think they need to start helping their kids understand this as well. Scarlett: I hope that people walk away from this realizing that they are responsible and can create the world that they want to leave their children. Don’t think, however, that anyone else is going to do it for you. Because if we thought that somebody else was gonna come in and do it, and I mean down to the level of keeping our kids safe, we were wrong. Scarlett: it has to be us, in a sense. It [00:47:00] makes sense. And once you start realizing this, and once you start doing the work within yourself, it feels so good. And you just naturally want to spread this. It’s so interesting. Even awareness of the Choose Love movement is spread by word of mouth. Scarlett: That is still the most powerful way to spread a message, is by word of mouth. And I have- I have full confidence that we are going to do this because we’ve forgotten our power, and It’s so tempting to relinquish it to some governmental agency or some leader to say, “Ah, they’ll take care of it.” Scarlett: But I think now that we’re realizing, oh, wait a minute, they won’t. They haven’t. They can’t. If they could have, they would have. So we’re going to have to reclaim our power and start doing things the right way, which is addressing the root cause. Yes, every institution that’s in place to put out the fires, thank you, [00:48:00] needed. Scarlett: But we also have to shift our focus to address the root cause so that we can get ahead of the suffering that leads to so much societal despair. It’s a change that we have to make, that we are responsible for, and that is possible. It does take a little more work. And wouldn’t it be great if we could just say more laws would fix everything, and then we would be safe and well? Scarlett: Wouldn’t that be great? It would be so wonderful, and I think we’ve tried to go that route, and we know that is actually simply not the case. It’s going to take effort on behalf of each one of us. But I can tell you, as a person that has taken that effort, that actually exerts, and exudes that effort every single day, that it only benefits you. Scarlett: It feels so good to take responsibility for your life and to not be a victim and to not harbor that type of blame and finger-pointing. Ah, it [00:49:00] feels so good. It’s like the best thing that I ever did. I remember saying on that interview, “I take my part of the responsibility.” And of course, talk about pushback. Scarlett: It’s the only thing that my mom and dad have agreed on in the last 35 years, I think, since their divorce, is that I should never have said that, ’cause it’s not my fault. And I was saying, “I’m not saying it’s my fault. I’m saying it’s my personal responsibility to be part of the solution to fix this.” And we’re all part of the solution. Scarlett: Everyone on here listening is part of the solution. And I think critical mass is like 3.5% that get this and that can move forward. And so let’s do it together, and let’s create the world that we want to leave our children, that we are proud to leave our children, one that is safe and kind. Gissele: So powerful and such a great way to really summarize everything. One of the things that I’ve seen in this podcast, I’ve been doing it for five years, is that love does have the power to transform, and it does begin with ourselves. For my own journey, the more I love myself, the more I accept [00:50:00] myself, flaws and all, the less I need other people to be different or to change, the more I can accept them as well. Gissele: And the… Actually, the more I start to care about other people and see their beauty and Gissele: understand that we’re all interconnected, we are all brothers and sisters, and we’re all in this circle of anything that I do impacts me, whether it be gossip or whether it be hate or whether it be anything, it always comes back to me. Gissele: It just does. Last question: Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? What do you wanna share with the audience? Scarlett: Yes. Thank you so much. So our website is chooselovemovement.org, and our programming is no cost. And we have programming for all ages and stages, mostly school-based, but parents and communities. And it was really important to me that it be no cost because these are the essential building blocks of a strong and resilient human, as well as home and community and world. Scarlett: I [00:51:00] realized that this would have saved my son. Prisoners, that we have prison programs, tell me that had they learned this in school, they would not have perpetrated their crime. They say they didn’t know they had a choice, and now they do. Let’s get this to the kids before they have to learn it when, I won’t say it’s too late, but after they’ve perpetrated some really very devastating crimes. And so we’re all in this together. I need your help. So please come, see what you can do. We have ambassadors all over the world. They’re not paid positions, but we’re a small but mighty organization, and we are out to change the world, and in fact, we’re doing it now Gissele: Fantastic. Gissele: Thank you so much, Scarlett, for sharing your wisdom and your messaging, and for everything you shared with us today. This is a powerful episode, and I’m so glad you were able to join us. And thank you to everyone who joined us for another episode of Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: Bye-bye. Scarlett: Bye

TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Gissele: Are there limits to a mother’s love? Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Gissele: Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support our podcast, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion. Gissele: Today, we’re talking with Sandra Cavanaugh is a creativity and communication specialist, transformational coach, consultant, keynote speaker, educator, podcast host, and best-selling author, as well as CEO of Spontaneous Brilliance , LLC. Sandra helps people step past the fear, frustration, and limiting beliefs to recognize and value their unique creative genius, discover their purpose and passion, take inspired action, and thrive as empowered conscious creators on the great stage of life. Gissele: Through decades of working with children with special needs, Sandra developed [00:01:00] her deep belief that everyone is brilliant. We have no shortage of brilliance in the world, just a reluctance to offer it and a resistance to accept it. And as a very proud mother of four remarkable daughters, Sandra’s personal journey as a mother has made her a fierce advocate for children in foster care, adoption, children’s mental health, FASD, autism, neurodiversity, LGBTQIA+ rights- Yes Gissele: and creativity in education. Please join me in welcoming Sandra. Hi, Sandra. Sandra: Hi. How are you? Gissele: Great, thank you. Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. I was wondering if you could start by telling the listeners a little bit about how you actually became an adoptive mother. Sandra: How I became an adoptive mother. Sandra: I gave birth to my oldest daughter almost 36 years ago. and that was a very difficult pregnancy. And even though she was[00:02:00] Born super healthy. It was something that I almost didn’t live through and couldn’t do a second time. So we were telling her from about the time that she was two that we would adopt a little sister for her. Sandra: And when she was 13 she came to us and went, “Hey, you guys if you don’t do that soon, I’m gonna be out of the house before you adopt.” And so we went through the process to set ourselves up for foster adoption. We were looking for one one girl, about seven was what we thought. and one day after we had put in our home study and gotten all prepared, I was looking at kids all over the country that were available for adoption, and I literally saw this girl. Sandra: There was only two paragraphs on the website thing, and there were these two paragraphs there, and she was sitting, in a photo shoot that they had set up for her, and she was nine. [00:03:00] And I saw her, and I just thought, ” Okay, I can read between the lines here enough to know that there’s other issues going on that they’re not mentioning, but I’m supposed to be this girl’s mom. Sandra: I’m this girl’s mom.” And I called my then husband and said, “Hey, y- you’ve gotta see this because this is it. This is her. I know she’s older than we thought. I don’t care. I’m supposed to be her mom.” And so we set out in the process, and just a couple of days later the social worker from there, which they’re not supposed to do, they’re supposed to call social worker to social worker, but instead they called me directly and said, “She has a biological half-sister that’s also just become available for adoption.” Sandra: These girls had been in foster care for two and a half years. And she’s four, and would you consider adopting two? And we were like okay, we’ll consider it. It’s not what we planned on.” But when I went home that night with the paperwork on the younger one, our daughter went, “We’re not going to bed [00:04:00] until you guys agree ’cause this is my sister. Sandra: We’re just not leaving this conversation till it’s done.” We went through what was a crazy fast and furious process that can only be called a series of coincidences and weird miracles, but those girls were in our home three months later, which is pretty unprecedented. And and then in Idaho which is where, We were living it… Sandra: they basically hold off for a year before they finalize a foster adoption. And so by the time that the adoption was finalized, we knew we were in for a rocky road. And my then husband really did not want to do it. The girls both had… By that point, I had gotten them both diagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome. Gissele: And Brittany, the younger one, had neurological processing disorders. And Andy, we knew, had what we at the time thought were, was a severe form of RAD. She was [00:05:00] extremely manipulative, which is not rare in, kids adopted from foster care. But she had some issues that we were just starting to realize, and it was time to finalize the adoption. Sandra: And I was all in, and my husband at the time was really reluctant. But we did finalize the adoption and yeah, that was 22 years ago. Gissele: Wow. What made you wanna adopt older children? Traditionally people wanna adopt usually younger babies because they don’t want the conditioning or all the experiences that happen. Gissele: What made you decide for older kids? Sandra: I think part of it was our lifestyle at the time, and part of it was adopting a child that would be older and more in the, within the range of our older daughter Shelley’s, life that she was gonna be in the house for. Sandra: And so even… she and Brittany are 10 years apart, which was a good healthy span, but also [00:06:00] younger children they are… I just to be perfectly honest, I just couldn’t look at all those children that weren’t gonna be adopted. And even to this day, if you show me a group of kids that are in foster care, I have to talk myself out of adopting them- Yeah. Sandra: Yeah … because I just wanna love them. Gissele: Thank you for sharing that. Were you told that the children might be coming with some trauma? Sandra: No Gissele: Okay. No, ’cause I worked in the field of child welfare for many years and many of them have trauma. They can be diagnosed from ADHD, for all kinds of things, and especially kids that are older, and if they’ve only been in foster care for a short time, that there might be a lot of trauma that is completely missed. Sandra: Yeah, no. I learned after the fact that that social workers at the time were really prone to, and I assume they still do it now, they deliberately didn’t have them diagnosed because they didn’t want that to be a barrier to them being adopted. And, … when things got really dicey on this [00:07:00] end, which we haven’t even gotten to yet, but when things got really bad here, the social worker that had worked with us to get through the adoption on this end, the first thing she said to me was, “Throw them back in the system. Sandra: This is not what you signed on for. You need to terminate your parental rights right now. This is not what you signed on for.” And I was just appalled at that. and the second thing she said to me was, ” I realize that they did this probably with their eyes open, but all I can think of right now is how many kids I’ve put on a plane and just crossed my fingers and known that the parents didn’t know what they were in for.” Sandra: Gissele: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Which is really unfair to the children, right? I, I don’t wanna judge social workers. I think it’s coming from a place of we want this, the home stability.” But I know of circumstances for sure where there was, like, parents who did not know the level of required care, and did end up returning. Gissele: So imagine you think you finally found a home. So it’s better [00:08:00] if you have that knowledge up front, and then are working actively on it, than to get surprised. And I’m just wondering if you could tell the audience when things started to get bad and then how it went from there? Sandra: Okay. Like I say, we’d been going for about a year. We knew that Andy was super manipulative. We Brittany was as ADHD as the day is long. She was bumping into everything everywhere. They both had, Real issues with lots of the executive functioning things, from the fetal alcohol syndrome. Sandra: So lying was the first thing out of their mouth even when there was no reason to lie . And I learned a lot about FAS in that year. but we knew that Andy had some psychiatric issues. And in fact thewe had taken them to what was then called the Pediatric Abilities Clinic here. Sandra: And so there were neuropsychologists and neurologists that examined the kids and gave them all their diagnoses. with Andy, we found that because of the [00:09:00] fetal alcohol syndrome, her brain actually, The human brain is only supposed to be five IQ points apart maximum, like the two sides of the brain and their IQ. Sandra: Hers are 20 points apart because with fetal alcohol, if one side of the brain at a certain developmental point is impacted, then one side of the body… she’s got moles on one side of her body and none on the other side. She’s got a- … a cowlick in her hair, and she’s got that side of her brain has a lower IQ by 20 points. Sandra: And the, it took m- quite a while for the neurologist to go, “Why did I not notice this before?” It’s one side of her body because skin, hair, and the brain develop at similar rates. And so that was a very interesting point. But anyway, I digress. But so we finalized the adoption in September, and then at Thanksgiving, by the point of Thanksgiving we had started to notice [00:10:00] that the guardrails were coming off for Andy. Sandra: Some of her behaviors that she’d been masking, she was letting them off. And so the girls were fighting more and more. and Brittany was showing up with bruises on her all the time. And she she was little, just tiny, undersized because of the FAS, and just a rocket going all the time, and had to be a lot of times physically restrained for, say, 10, 20 minutes because she would just flail. Sandra: When her nervous system would just go off the rails, she would just flail and scream and so you’d have to restrain her. She actually put her little foot through our drywall at one point. and so her having bruises was easily explained. But one night we were getting her ready for a bath, Shelly, my oldest daughter, and I. Sandra: And and, We were running the bath and getting her out of her clothes, and she was facing me, and Shelly was standing behind her. And I looked, and she had two matching bruises on [00:11:00] her two hip bones. And I thought, she’s always running around things and hooking her hip on them, catching them. Sandra: And I said, “Did you do this at school? Did you…” And Shelly was behind her, and just her eyes were huge, and she said, “Mom, that looks like a hand.” And when I turned Brittany around, there were four matching finger points on the other side. And from a hand about the size of mine, and I have really small hands for an adult. Sandra: And I said to her, I said to her, “Honey, did somebody squeeze you?” And she said, “Oh, yeah, I think Reggie did,” a little kid at school. And she was in kindergarten, and I’m like no, sweetie. That’s not what I’m talking about. Did somebody big squeeze you?” She goes I don’t know. Sandra: I suppose…” Just didn’t attach to anything. And then one day later… And the bruises kept coming. And then one day about Thanksgiving time on the weekend after Thanksgiving, Shelly and I were doing some housecleaning, and we were in my room. And my then husband [00:12:00] was at his parents’ house about eight blocks away, and Brittany and Andy were in one of the bedrooms cleaning up. Sandra: And I could hear them start to argue, and I’d been teaching them to deescalate, and I said, Shelly was like, when they started to argue, Shelly was, like, gonna get up and get in there. And I said no. Let’s wait and see if they can do it,” yeah. “They know what to do. Let’s see if they can do it.” Sandra: And so then it got a little more heated, a little more heated, and then all of a sudden it was just silent. And I looked up, and in the doorway, Brittany was standing in the doorway, and she was holding her arm, and tears were just streaming down her face, but she was completely silent. And Brittany’s a screamer, Sandra: and and I said, “Honey, what’s the matter?” And she said, “My arm hurts.” And so I went over and looked at her, and she had this giant welt on her arm. It was a big stripe of a welt. And so I said, “What happened?” She didn’t answer me. So I took her hand and walked back down the hall, and as we were cresting the [00:13:00] doorway, Andy was across the room with her back to me, and as I crested the doorway, Andy went, without turning around, said, “Mom, I did not hit her.” Sandra: And I was like, “Okay, sweetheart. I didn’t say that you did.” But the fact still remains Brittany has a big welt on her arm. Where’d it come from? I was up on a chair putting something up in the top of the closet, I had a hanger in my hand, Brittany’s down on the ground. I turned around real quick because of something that she said, and I accidentally hit her on the arm. Sandra: I said, honey, this is way too big a welt to have been caused like that.” And all of a sudden, just for some reason my brain just clicked and I knew, I just knew that I was- … in the twilight zone. And I went, “Shelly, take her. Take Brittany, go watch cartoons, put some ice on her arm. You guys go watch cartoons.” Sandra: And Shelly’s eyes are like dollars, and I’m like, “Go. Now. You guys go watch cartoons. You’re [00:14:00] out.” And I sat down on the floor with Andy and sat cross-legged facing her, and I took her hands and I just said, “Sweetheart, I’m your mommy and I love you, and there is nothing you can tell me that is gonna make that go away. Sandra: I’m always- … gonna be your mommy, I’m always gonna love you.” ‘Cause I knew right then that I was dealing with some serious, sociopathy and this, and the only way I could talk to Andy at that point was for Andy’s benefit. I had learned that well before this. And I said I’m gonna be here no matter what. Sandra: And so I need you to tell me the truth, though, because I think something’s happening and we need to get to the bottom of it so that we can fix it.” I said, “Brittany is showing up with lots of bruises on her body, and you guys play together a lot, and you’re so much bigger than her,” because Andy was just, Andy was literally just a muscle at… Sandra: She was just barely, at that point, she had just [00:15:00] turned 11. She was 10, essentially. She might’ve been two days past 11. Or no, she was a month past 11. She, I said, Brittany is getting these bruises. Either you guys are playing together and you’re playing too rough and she’s getting them accidentally, or you’re doing it on purpose.” Sandra: And she said, “Oh, it’s definitely the other one.” And I said, “What, which one’s the other one?” She goes, “I’m definitely doing it on purpose.” And I was like, “Okay, why are you doing that?” And she goes, “Because I hate her and I want her dead.” And I said, “Honey, why do you want her dead?” And she goes, “Because ever since she was born, I’ve been invisible. Sandra: People only care about me if I pretend to care about Brittany. If she were dead, my life would be better.” And, then I’m thinking about all the times that it said in her paperwork, her adoption paperwork, that that- Andy was asking to not be adopted with Brittany. She was requesting it, and they didn’t listen to her. Sandra: And then as [00:16:00] we kept talking, I was like honey, have you ever tried to kill her?” And she was like, “Oh, yeah.” And she’s … And I’m like, “Really? How?” And she starts telling me all these different things. And I’m like would you ever really hurt her?” And she’s “I hurt her all the time.” Sandra: And I’m, “What are you talking about?” And she said, when she’s asleep, I can squeeze her, and when I know that I’m making a bruise, it makes me feel better.” She’s “She doesn’t have to be awake. She doesn’t have to know it. I just need to know it.” And oh. And she’s, she was hurting her during the day. Sandra: She was doing all kinds of things. And I would say, “Why doesn’t Brittany tell on you?” And she said, “Because I either scare her or I give her something.” And then I was thinking of all the times Brittany would run in and go, “Look what Andy gave me.” And I’m thinking, “Oh my God.” And so I, she was telling me that to fall asleep at night she would dream of sawing Brittany’s head off with a chainsaw. Sandra: She would [00:17:00] imagine that, and that would make her feel calm. And- Wow … and I was like, “Okay. Okay.” So I said, “Sweetheart what I said before is still true. I love you, and I’m gonna help you, and I’m gonna protect you, but you have to stay honest with me because what you’re doing, the things that you’re doing and the way that you’re thinking about it, that’s not normal and it’s not healthy. Sandra: And the worst thing that’s gonna happen…” is the way I said it to her, I said, “The worst thing that’s gonna happen is you’re gonna get caught and you’re gonna go to prison for the rest of your life. And you’re my baby, and I don’t want that to happen to you.” And I said, “You cannot kill Brittany because if you kill Brittany, people are gonna know it’s you. Sandra: You can’t do it.” And she started to cry. And she said, “I’ve gotta get out of here, Mommy.” And I said, ” Why?” And she goes, “I gotta get out of here because I’m gonna kill my sister, and then people are gonna blame me for it.” And I was like, “Yes, they will. Yes, indeed, they will. So let’s not do that.” Yeah. “Let’s figure this out. Sandra: we’re gonna [00:18:00] get some help, and we’re gonna have to have you go stay someplace else for a while.” And she said, “Okay, I’ll go spend the night at Grandma’s or Nana’s.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s not what I mean. We need a doctor’s help because this isn’t normal, and so you’re probably gonna have to go to a hospital.” Sandra: And she was like, “Okay, let’s do that so that I don’t get put in jail.” And so we did. And then, And I took in a girl that was extremely mentally ill, clearly, but also amazingly manipulative and amazingly charming. She looked like the little girl in The Bad Seed, ironically. She had blonde hair, freckles, green eyes, just as adorable and homespun America as you could possibly get. Sandra: And she walked into that place and 24 hours later the main psychologist there was calling me saying that it was all because of me being an overactive parent, that I didn’t understand, what it [00:19:00] was like to adopt a child from foster care, that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and she just had a little trauma, and I just had to… I was overreacting. And then I kept saying no,” and bringing them information and talking to them about, “We’ve gotta, we’ve gotta do something because I’ve got a five-year-old at home that she’s bent on killing- and she can do it.” And they were like no.” So finally the State Department of Children’s Mental Health, within probably, I guess this was about four days into this process, State Department of Children’s Mental Health sat me down and told me that I had to take Andy home and figure out a way to keep my children safe or they’d charge me with child abandonment, and the other two children would be taken away. Sandra: And- Gissele: Wow. That’s Gissele: awful … and Sandra: I was like can I have some PSR help? Can I have- … something? Because, I work, my husband works. Shelly goes to school. They’re in grade school together. How do how do I [00:20:00] do this?” And they’re like no, we can’t authorize PSR help.” And I was like, “Why?” And they said, “Frankly, because a tragedy hasn’t occurred yet.” Gissele: Yeah. Sandra: I said so let me get this straight.” “I can’t get any help with my 11-year-old because my five-year-old hasn’t ended up in the hospital or dead yet?” And they’re like, “Basically, yeah.” Gissele: Yeah. Oh my God. We have these systems that they’re not bent to protect. Gissele: It’s awful. So before you get to the next stage, I just wanted to point out two key things that I don’t want to get lost. First and foremost, this is not the case for all or most children that are adopted from foster care, but there are some that come with significant trauma. Gissele: when I was working in the system I, similar experience, I knew of a young girl who had said that her sister That they were not bonded, because she had tried to kill her when she was younger. and they placed them together, and it ended up that she threatened her life again, and then once it was witnessed, that’s when she was removed. Gissele: But [00:21:00] they weren’t listening to the voices of young people And that actually led to my doing some research. And the truth of the matter is you should not be placing siblings together unless the siblings are attached. Unless they’re a positive attachment between the siblings, then they should be placed together. Gissele: But if they’re, like, inappropriately attached, it’s not always safe or appropriate to house the children together. The second thing that I think is fundamental about your story, and then we’re gonna get to the next phase, is the way that you engaged Andy was about Andy, which I think is really smart. Gissele: The minute you had made it about Brittany would’ve shifted all of the things of, yet again, this is another reinforcement that she’s more important than me. The fact that you kept it Andy-focused got her to at least admit and to acknowledge that she can lose significantly if she moves forward with hurting Brittany. Gissele: And so I think I just wanted to point that out. Anyways, okay, so like to the next stage of the conversation. Sandra: And I do want to [00:22:00] say that even though this story is a little on the scary, terrifying side in some ways, at the same time, I am a huge advocate to this day of adoption from foster care. Sandra: I am not in any way against that whatsoever. I speak to parents all the time about that, helping them prepare for it. It’s just that the system is a little screwed up- … and is set up for people to be able to test drive these kids. And so yeah, for me it’s all about the commitment of the parents and recognizing that you’re there for that child as that child’s parent from the second they walk into your home, not, if they perform correctly, that you can- Yeah Sandra: opt out of the test drive. So I’m really glad that you brought that up, because I wouldn’t want anybody to ever get the impression that this is about, “Don’t do it.” I’m saying- Gissele: Yeah … Sandra: go there. Just know that you’re there- That you’re committed … for the duration, whatever it is. So- Andy came back home, and we had alarms on all of the [00:23:00] doors, and we had Brittany sleeping in bed with me, and we had Dean, my then husband, was sleeping on the hallway floor a lot of the time to make sure that Andy wasn’t able to figure out how to get out of her room without an alarm going off. Sandra: And it was a little crazy, and it was before Christmas. And Christmas tree was up in the house, and I had Andy and Brittany getting ready to go back to school, and they were going to school that morning. And Brittany had been in therapy for several weeks at that point while we’d been dealing with Andy. Sandra: Brittany had been going to therapy to learn to speak up and to say- … something when things were happening and to protect herself. And so I was in the kitchen. The two girls were at the dining room table across the table from each other, and Dean was in the shower, and Shelly was already gone to school. Sandra: And what Andy would do a lot of the times with Brittany is whisper at her and threaten her and scare her and traumatize her that way, and that’s what Brittany had been raised with. [00:24:00] Because they were in their biological home until Brittany was 18 months, and then they were in foster care together until she was four. Sandra: And she’d basically been raised by Andy, more or less, and this is the way that Andy- … controlled her. And so Brittany all of a sudden yells, “Mom, she’s doing it. She’s doing that thing.” And Andy was livid. She was like, “What is she doing? She’s telling on me.” Literally was Andy’s reaction. Sandra: And I’m like Andy, welcome to your new world. This is what’s gonna happen now.” “We have taught her to speak up.” Yeah. “And so you can’t do that anymore, and that’s part of being in this household together.” And so fin- you know, she’s all tensed up, and a couple of minutes later… And Andy had her back to me at the table. Sandra: And so a couple minutes later, Brittany yells, “Mom, she’s doing it again.” Andy flew up and threw this chair that she was sitting in, which was a very heavy dining room chair with arms. She threw it [00:25:00] backwards, put it through the wall behind her, and screamed, “I hate her and I want her dead.” And which Brittany had never heard before. Sandra: And so Brittany’s under the Christmas tree hiding. Andy goes down the hall. I think I said to her at the time, I said, “Andy, go to your room,” to separate them. She stormed off down the hall. She went into the bedroom. I followed her. I get in there, and she is literally, she’s… Her skin’s very pale, but she was bright red. Sandra: She was scratching the skin off her face. She was crying and laughing at the same time. She was pulling at her fingers and pulling the fingers out of the sockets. All this was happening in this chaotic mess, and I was like… And she kept screaming that she was on fire inside, and she was gonna die if she couldn’t squeeze Brittany. Sandra: And I was clapping my hands in front of her face. I was [00:26:00] like, “Andi, if you are faking this, you gotta stop because this is gonna not end the way you want it to.” And I was, like, trying to stop her, and I was holding her hands because she wouldn’t quit scratching at her face. And Dean comes out of the shower, and he’s “What is happening?” Sandra: And I said, “Get Brittany out from under the tree, get her to school, and get back here really fast.” And he did. And when he came back, I handed her off to him, and I ran to call the psychiatric hospital, the children’s psychiatric hospital, and said, gotta bring her back. This is what’s happening.” Sandra: And I got the permission to bring her back, because you have to get permission. And so I got permission to bring her back. I went back down the hall, and I heard Dean in this very sing-songy kind of voice, and I didn’t hear anything from Andi. And I get there. Andi’s sitting on the floor. Sandra: She’s looking up at him, and [00:27:00] he’s sitting on the bed, and he’s reading Winnie the Pooh. And she turns and looks at me, and her face is scratched, and there’s, it’s still all sheened with tears. And she looks at me and she goes, “Hi, Mommy.” I’m like, ” Okay, Andi, you’re really freaking me out right now.” Yeah. Sandra: And she’s “Why, Mommy?” And I’m like, “Because five minutes ago you were gonna die if you couldn’t hurt Brittany, and now you’re fine because Daddy’s reading Winnie the Pooh?” And she goes, “I feel much better.” And I’m like, “Okay, we’re packing a suitcase and going back to the hospital.” We get her back to the hospital. Sandra: Later that day, that same day, same psychologist calls me from the hospital and says, “You’re gonna have to make some difficult choices. This child can never come back into your home.” I’m like, “Dude, would you pick a side and stick on it?” This is the same human being who told me- Yeah … it was all me and all magical and in my mind, telling me that now this child can never [00:28:00] come home. Sandra: Yeah. We, for the next five years- I was basically told day in and day out from professionals, “What’s wrong with her cannot be fixed.” She was diagnosed as a homicidal sociopath at- … 11 years old. And they don’t do that, they don’t give a sociopathy diagnosis to children. But she won the grand prize, and no matter who examined her, who looked at it, they were like, this can’t be fixed. This one can’t be fixed.” I don’t believe any child is give-up-on-able, that’s not what you do. Yeah. My husband at the time had been saying for a long time, “I just want my life back,” because we were three people. Sandra: I was running a professional th- repertory company. He was one of the leading actors in the company, and our daughter was an actress. So we were, like, these very, this very creative team of three, and the [00:29:00] chaos infused the circumstance. And he was just constantly saying, “I want my life back.” Sandra: And I would say, “There’s nothing back there. There’s no back to go back to.” Gissele: Yeah. “ Sandra: This Sandra: is who we are, and these are our children.” And he was like, “Yeah, I’m not so sure.” And so he had really developed quite a hatred for Andy. and he wasn’t much more invested in Brittany. Sandra: He was angry at Brittany all the time. And so a lot of my energy was to keeping everything, you know- Yeah … stable and working with Andy. And so we still… there’s no facility in Idaho for a child of that age that has a diagnosis like that because there are apparently no mentally ill children in the state of Idaho under the age of 12. Sandra: And so there was just nothing we could do. We found a residence facility that would take her, that took children. It was a group home sort of thing. And [00:30:00] so we took her out there, but we told them, we don’t know what’s gonna happen when she doesn’t have Brittany to take her stuff out on.” Sandra: Yeah. “And so when she says she’s annoyed with somebody, that means she doesn’t want them on the planet anymore. So w- we’re telling you her languaging. We’re telling you all the things that are the ways that she does stuff.” I was actually in- Kentucky because I’d been hired to write a screenplay from a novel, and so I was in Kentucky visiting the author, and I got a phone call in the middle of the night from the hospital because after she’d been there for several months, the the psychologist there had decided that she was too great a threat to the other younger children there. Sandra: She’d already taken an adult down to the ground. She’d e- Wow … but she was convinced that if you suffocated someone in their sleep that no one could tell how they died. And so that was her practiced way. And when she headed down the hallway in the middle of the night with a pillow toward the younger [00:31:00] kids’ rooms, that was when they called it and went, ” We’re done. Sandra: This is not happening.” And so they took her to the hospital. So the hospital called me and said, “You’ve got 48 hours to take, basically take possession of her or be charged with child abandonment.” So Dean was back. Thanks for the help. Yeah. I was in Kentucky. Thank… Yeah. Dean was back here. He didn’t wanna go sign on for… Sandra: And I was like, “You don’t have to take her home. You just have to go sign in that she’s under your…” And so I talked him into it. He did. He went and signed. Then while I’m still in Kentucky, I’m talking to the people at the hospital and talking with Andy, and the people at the hospital are like, “Yeah, we’re gonna let her go home, and, she’s fine. Sandra: She’s okay. There’s nothing wrong. Nothing wrong here.” And I was like look. Don’t let her out till I get there. I’m gonna be there in a couple of days. Don’t let her out,” because she just told… We had just been on the [00:32:00] phone, and she had just told me about a nurse there that had put her into a solitary room, in punishment for something she had done. So Andy was telling me the ways she was planning to kill this person, and this- Oh … nurse at the… To… And I was like no. Don’t let her out. Don’t let her out, and also don’t leave her alone with this nurse.” And they’re like- Yeah … “Okay.” I was like, “I just need to get back into town and then I’ll take her.” Sandra: I just kept saying, “I’ll take her, I’ll take her.” So I get back into town. I go into Andy and I said, “Honey, tell me about what this nurse did to you,” and she does. And I’m like, “And when you told the people, how you felt about that, what did they do?” She’s They didn’t do anything to her, so I’m gonna do it.” Sandra: And She’s telling me how she’s figured out how to kill this person while… with her back to her. And I said, “Okay, sweetheart, these people need to understand what’s really going on with you, sweetie, because they don’t believe you,” which is [00:33:00] a real trigger for Andy at the time. Sandra: It’s “They don’t believe you, so let’s make them believe you.” I said, “I want you to take this pad and this pen. I want you to write out everything about her that made you mad, what your plan is, and also how you feel about the doctor and what your plan is there. Write it all down and tell them what you want them to do for you.” Sandra: And she’s “Okay.” So she writes it all down, and the same guy that had called me and said, she’s fine. I had him come into her room, and she and I were both sitting on the bed there. He came into her room. I said… And Andy was sitting against the wall a little bit, and I said, “So I had Andy write down for me, so that you could see it, everything that she’s feeling and what she actually plans to do to this nurse,” and I called her by name. Sandra: And she… And he said, “Okay.” And I said, “I want you to see what’s actually going on in Andy’s head.” And I handed him the paper, and he starts reading [00:34:00] it, and he’s reading it, and he’s looking up at Andy, and he’s looking at me, and he’s keeps reading, and he keeps reading. And these were graphic descriptions of murder. Sandra: And as he’s reading, and he looks up at Andy and he goes, “Andy, is this true?” And as he’s doing that and trying to have a conversation back and forth with Andy, Andy literally fell asleep against the wall, sitting up. And I said this is what Andy looks like when she’s telling the truth because her brain won’t let her stay awake and participate. Sandra: Like, when Andy does this, you know that she has let everything out.” And he was like, “Oh, okay.” So we went through it again, but again we wound up having her come home again because the insurance would only pay for a certain number of weeks there in the psychiatric hospital and she was too young for the longer term psychiatric hospital in southern Idaho at the time ’cause she wasn’t 12 yet. Sandra: So she was fine, and she needed to come home, and it w- needed to be our problem. And I [00:35:00] found a facility for her to go to called the Youth Ranch, and she was the youngest child there. But thank God for them. It’s out in the middle of nowhere, and she got a lot of a lot of ability to work with horses and stuff. Sandra: And so she managed to be there and be there successfully, semi-successfully for a while. But because the kids were all older than her, that was probably a lot of what was helpful about that environment. But at the time Dean and I were splitting up, and w- I couldn’t let Andy know that because I didn’t want her to know that he was just, he had checked out as far as she was concerned. Sandra: And one day we were on the phone in a staffing because it was far away from here, and so I couldn’t always go to all the weekly staffings, so I did them on the phone sometimes. And we were on the phone and when the staffing was over Andy asked if she could just talk with me for a while. And they said sure, [00:36:00] so she and I were on the phone, and she goes, “Mommy, I wanna come home.” Sandra: And I said, “I know that, sweetheart, and we’re trying to figure it out.” And literally, I will confess, and I’ve confessed this to Andy, as I was talking to her at that moment, I didn’t think she was ever coming home. I had come to believe the party line, that this was broken in a big way. Speaker 3: And, Sandra: And I was saying to her, “Honey, we’re working on it.” And I said, “But the thing is that the adults that are working on this, if we make a mistake and we bring you home too soon, the only way we’re gonna know is somebody’s gonna get hurt.” I’m like, “So we have to be careful.” And she was like, ” Okay. Sandra: How long is that gonna take?” And I said sweetheart I honestly believe that someday you’re gonna wake up and realize that Brittany is not the person you’re mad at.” And she said, “But what if that never happens?” And I said, “What?” She goes, “What if that never happens? Can I never come home if I don’t love Brittany?” Sandra: And I just thought, “Oh, my God,” this is a [00:37:00] child. She wasn’t 12 yet. And I’m like, I said, “Okay, honey. We’re doing this wrong.” And I said we’ve been planning this whole time for you not to get well.” I’m like, “But even if you and I are the only two people on the planet that believe it, we’re gonna start planning for you to get well.” Sandra: And she’s “Okay. Let’s do that. Good answer.” And so we did. We just started… We worked it out with the therapists there that, like, when Andy would get into an argument with somebody or she’d get into a fight with somebody and instead of getting disciplined, they would take her, separate her, and have her call me, and she would talk it through with me. Sandra: And she would say, “Okay. This is what happened, and this is what happened, and this is what I did, and this is what I think. What should I feel?” And then I would say, “Okay if I, if that happened to me, this is how I would’ve felt, this is blah, blah, blah.” And I would [00:38:00] talk her through it. Sandra: And Dean one time heard that going on, and he’s “You realize that she’s using you as her conscience?” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s cool. That’s great.” “Okay.” She’s training a conscience into herself. And then there came a time where I started advocating for Andy to be able to come into a f- a PCS home, and start to work her way into seeing if she could be in our home. Gissele: A PCS Sandra: Is a high level of foster care residence- … where the parents in the home are the foster parents are trained to deal with kids with particular disabilities. And in this case, the parents w- weren’t really particularly well-trained, but we got her into the PCS home. Sandra: She was going to school in a town a little ways from here, maybe 20 miles from my house. And and one day she told me about a kid that was annoying her, and I called the school, I called the f- foster parents, I called everybody. I was like, “This kid’s [00:39:00] gonna get hurt. This kid’s gonna get hurt. You gotta listen. Sandra: She said he’s…” And they’re like she hasn’t demonstrated anything like that.” Within 24 hours she had sent that kid to the hospital, and looked like it was a total accident. Sandra: He was on the other s- he was on the other side of a big, heavy metal door at the school, those kind with the push bar, and she knew it. Sandra: And she went… And like I said, Andy’s a muscle. She kicked that push bar into that kid and knocked him out, hit the linoleum floor, she sent him to the hospital. And I was like, “Do you see? I told you.” And they’re like, “She didn’t mean to. She didn’t know he was on the…” She was very remorseful. Sandra: I’m like, “Oh, you guys. Hello.” And she did come home eventually because in that foster home when I took her back, went to… She would come and spend the weekends, and then I would take her back. And and when I took her back one night she called me because she was saying that, they had [00:40:00] pushed her and yelled at her and, that she’d come home. Sandra: They’d had a death in their family, and so she’d come back to chaos and they, and so she was really upset. And I can tell when Andy’s lying and I believed her, and I was like, “I wanna go get her.” And I, I literally called my oldest daughter, who was 16 then, and was the other parent in the household because her dad had left. Sandra: And and he’d just basically opted out of everything. So Shelly had become the other parent in the household with Brittany. And and I called Shelly and I said, “Look, this is what’s happening, and I think Andy’s being mistreated, and I wanna go get her, but I will not do that to you because I don’t think that things are healed between her and Brittany, and so you’re gonna be the other person trying to get in between them.” Sandra: And Shelly, at the time, was smaller than Andy in terms of muscle mass. Shelly was tiny and very thin and Andy, no. And so I was like, I’m not gonna, I’m [00:41:00] not gonna put you through this. It’s completely up to you, and no, no stress.” And Shelly’s answer was, “Mom, go get my sister.” And then I said, “Okay, let me talk to Brittany.” Sandra: Brittany gets on the phone. I said, “Brittany, I think Andy’s in a tough situation. I wanna bring her home, but I want you to feel safe, so you tell me.” And so Brittany was six, at the time maybe. And and she said, “Mommy, everybody deserves a second chance, even Andy.” And so went and got her, brought her home. Sandra: We went through crazy times. It was not the end. Andy went into psychiatric placements multiple times. when she was 12 she had some violent episodes, and she was in a place called Hayes Shelter, which was, like, a place for, supposed to be for 16-year-olds and above, but Andy was in there when she was 12. Sandra: and she was staying there, Because there had been some violent interactions with Brittany, she was trying to, [00:42:00] she was still trying to do things. And and I had tried to get her back into psychiatric hospital, and they would not take her. They were, like going no.” And I kept going to the State Department of Children’s Mental Health and saying, “W- can I just get her a CAFAS test? Sandra: Can I just get her a test to see what her psychiatric situation is?” They wouldn’t give her one. So finally one day, I talked to a special needs attorney who had just recently he had sued the state on behalf of a child that had died in prison because they were suffering from some extreme psychiatric issues, and he was 16, and they put him in prison, and he was killed. Sandra: And so this attorney had sued the State of Idaho and won gazillions of dollars on behalf of the family. And so he turned to me and he said, All you need to do is Sandra: Call them and tell them I’m your attorney and that you want a CAFAS test done now.” [00:43:00] And so I because I called them up to say, “Just let her into some psychiatric help.” And this girl that… this woman that had called me and this was before I had claimed that attorney, she said, we are not gonna do that, and we’re not going to let her go to Blackfoot. Sandra: We’re not gonna do any of that.” And I said, “Why? Why is this happening?” And she said, “Honestly, because if sh- we don’t believe that she’s as mentally ill as you say she is. However, if she is, the State of Idaho does not want that financial responsibility for the rest of her life.” I was like, “That’s what your board told you?” Sandra: And she said, “Yes.” And I said, “Okay, then here’s what I want.” I’m like, “This is my attorney, and I-” am giving you two hours to have that in writing and signed by the president of your board that says that you will not treat her [00:44:00] because you do not believe that she is going to actually kill somebody. And then when she does- then it’s on you. I’m like, “Because she’s going to.” And at the time she was in Hayes Shelter, and she was telling me that there was a boy there that she was gonna kill because this boy had said things, rude things about me, and rude things about his grandmothers, her grandmothers- Speaker 3: … When we’d Sandra: come to visit. Sandra: And he was, like, 16, and she had a plan. And so they called me back shortly after that and said, “Okay, “you said the right thing. You can come and get her tested.” And so it was her birthday. It was actually her 12th birthday when they scheduled the test for. And so I took her in for the test and it’s a, it’s a verbal test, and I said, and I was manipulating her. All, all honesty, true transparency, I knew what was happening, but I needed to get her some serious psychiatric help, and I and I didn’t want her to kill anybody, and I [00:45:00] knew that she believed that killing was an okay answer still. And I I said, “Andie, again, you gotta just… Sandra: You know you need some help, and I know you need some help so that we don’t get this taken out of control and other people make decisions for you that, that we don’t get to make.” I said, “So you gotta just lay it all out on the table. Be perfectly honest with… Whatever the questions are that she asks, just tell her everything, and you just let them see you exactly as you are. Sandra: Don’t hide anything.” And she’s “Okay.” She’s she goes in there, and I sat way far away where I couldn’t even hear them, ’cause I didn’t want this lady to think that I was influencing Andie in any way. And this same lady who had told me, “This isn’t gonna happen,” was the one to give her the KAFAS test, and she all of a sudden in the middle of the test, she goes, “Okay, enough.” Sandra: And I, my first reaction was, “Oh, crap, she’s gonna tell me that, And- there’s nothing wrong with Andie.” And- … Sandra: And she w- she turns to me and she goes, “I think you know I’m a straight [00:46:00] shooter, right?” And I said, “Yeah,” and she goes “This child cannot go back to Hayes Shelter. She’s gonna kill somebody.” Sandra: And I was like… She’s “She needs to go to the psychiatric hospital right now.” And I said, “The problem with that is you’ve told the psychiatric hospital not to admit her,” because it’s me trying to get respite at the expense of the psychiatric hospital. Yeah. And she’s I will call them right now.” Sandra: And I’m like you better call them fast.” So I get out to the car with Andie, and when I took her to the appointment- I had helped her clean up her little area in Hays Shelter where her bed was and stuff, and I had found this metal thing. And I didn’t know what it wa- I knew I was supposed to know what it was, but it was so chang- altered that it didn’t register with me what it was. Sandra: What it was it was one of those hangers for a shower curtain. The metal thing that’s like the shape- … of a light bulb and you can pop part of it out, and it’s just this metal thing. And so she had taken one of those and straightened it [00:47:00] out and molded it to her hand so that the little loop part would go around her bottom fingers, and then the top part came around, and she had bent it to where it poked straight out- and she had sharpened it to where it was a fine point. And so she was telling me in the car about wanting to kill this kid, and that she’d been planning to come up behind him with a pencil and stab him with a pencil. But she realized that the pencil could probably break, it probably wouldn’t work, and so she was going to take this thing that she’d take… Sandra: I pulled this thing out of my pocket, and I said, “Is this what you were gonna use?” ‘Cause she was describing it to me. I said, “Is this it?” ‘Cause I had taken it. I didn’t know what it was, but I knew she shouldn’t have it. And she said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Show me what you were gonna do.” So she put it on, basically, with the point coming out like this, and she goes, “I was just gonna stab him in the eye, and I figured that would kill him.” Sandra: And I s- “I think you’re right, [00:48:00] and I also think that this is a sign, Andi, that you can’t be in Hays Shelter.” And so I called the hospital, and they said, I s- w- as soon as I said my name and said her name, you could hear the heavy sigh. They didn’t want her back. And Sandra: They said, “What’s going on?” And I told them about this wi- I called it a wire. And she- it’s like I don’t think a wire is a lethal thing.” And I said, “Okay, I tell you what. I can’t in good conscience take her back and drop her off at Hays Shelter and, expect them to take her. So what I need you to do is I’m gonna bring her in, you guys evaluate her, and then if you give me the go-ahead to take her back to Hays Shelter, I’ll take her back.” Sandra: I’m like, “So it’s okay if you tell me after evaluation she doesn’t need to be there.” Okay. So I take her in. We sit down. There’s this woman across the room from us, and there’s a security guard between Andi and I and this woman, so on a certain level they weren’t sure. And there’s a glass- One [00:49:00] of those reflective mirrors, there’s a glass wall there, and so I knew that, a psychologist or somebody was watching us, a psychiatrist or something was watching through there as well. There’s this woman, and she’s in this chair across this little room, and she’s very condescending to Andy. And she’s “So Andy, what is it that you were planning to do?” Sandra: And Andy was telling her about the wire and that she was gonna stab this kid in the eye with it, and why she was gonna do it. And she goes, “Oh, Andy, I don’t think a wire is gonna do anything, do you? Don’t you really think that’s just, I realize that you’re saying this, but there’s-” … a distance between talking about it and doing it.” Sandra: And I could see the muscles in Andy’s jaw ti- she was getting mad that this woman was so condescending toward her. And so I had just had enough. I took it out of my pocket and handed it to Andy and said, “Show her what you were gonna do, Andy.” Andy put it on, and mind you, Andy was [00:50:00] bigger at 12 than this woman. Sandra: And Andy goes, “I was just gonna jab it in his…” And she sails across the room toward this woman with this thing on her hand. And she stopped short of the lady, but the lady climbed up in her chair against the wall, and the security guard stood up. But I didn’t move, because Andy wasn’t gonna do it there. Sandra: Andy would’ve been caught, right? Andy wasn’t gonna do it there, but she was full-fledged showing him. And we had walked into the place with me going, “Andy, just tell them what… tell them the truth.” So she does that, then she just stops, comes back, sits down, puts the thing back in my hand, and sits down and looks at the lady. Sandra: And the lady’s plastered up against the wall, and she looks at the security guard and she goes, “Aren’t you gonna take that thing?” And the guy’s just “No, mom’s got it.” ‘Cause at that point he was like, “You dealt with this completely poorly.” And so she said, “I have to go talk to some people. Do you [00:51:00] want the security guard to stay here?” Sandra: And I said, “No, I’m fine.” And I could see Andy starting to crumble at that point, because Andy realized she’d just gotten herself committed. And so she, she’s… As soon as they left Andy started to cry and she was like, “Mommy, pl- please, I don’t wanna stay here. Please, not on my birthday. Sandra: Please. Can we just come back in a couple of days? Not on my birthday, I wanna have my birthday.” And I was like, “Sweetheart, I don’t think there’s anything we can do about this. I’m really sorry.” And she was like, “But I just wanna have my birthday.” And I’m like, “Honey, but your- Every part of you wants to kill that kid right now. Sandra: And she goes, “Oh, Mommy, I can wait. I can wait. I don’t have to kill him today. I promise I’ll wait.” And I knew these people were watching us through that reflective glass. And “Sweetheart, I don’t think that’s gonna happen.” So she did stay there for a while and and then she did get into an extended placement, and she got [00:52:00] into some places that could help her for a little while longer, and then she came back home. Sandra: And she kept coming home, and we just kept going through that cycle, and I kept believing in her. And one day when I was dropping Andy off at Hayes Shelter, Andy said to me, she goes “Mom, I know you don’t believe in regrets, but even me?” She goes, ” Aren’t you sorry?” And I s- “Absolutely not, sweetheart.” Sandra: I said, “Do I wish that nobody had gotten hurt? You bet. But I’m not smart enough to know what I would be giving up in my life and what the rest of the family would be giving up in their lives if we didn’t, if we weren’t where we are. I’ve grown a lot. You’re growing. I’m like, this is our life. Sandra: This is what we are doing, and I love you, and I believe that we’re in on the situation we’re in for a reason.” And she goes I know that you think that our souls, kinda help pick where we’re born,” ’cause she’d listened to me [00:53:00] a lot and, and I said … She goes, “But why couldn’t I just have been born to you? Sandra: Why did I have to be born to those people?” And I said, “Sweetheart, I really do believe that we help pick what life we’re born into.” And I said, “So can you imagine how brave your little soul had to be- Speaker 3: … To do Sandra: this on purpose, to give those people the opportunity to treat you differently than they did treat you, and to then be willing to go through all of this, and trying to figure this out, and all of the stuff you’ve been through? Sandra: Your soul had to be the bravest little angel on the planet.” And I- … I referred to Andy and Brittany as my inconvenient angels, because- … I would not be who I am without them. My God, what I have learned from those girls. And I will tell you that Andy is… She just corrected me. Sandra: She’s th- I have to think birthdays. She’s gonna be 32 this year. [00:54:00] And she is the kindest- Gentlest, most loving, generous human being you would ever want to meet. and Dean my ex-husband, he was estranged from the kids for a while, but he he was very good at admitting that he copped out, he opted out when the going got tough, and that it wasn’t their fault, it was his choice, and he developed quite an amazing relationship with the girls, and Andi and Brittany were very close to him. He just passed away unexpectedly last November. And those girls still suffer every day because their dad died, and these are kids that as adults were two of his closest friends in the world. Sandra: And they are… That’s the other thing, Andi and Brittany are thick as thieves. They are best friends. All of my girls are. I also adopted a fourth daughter. A- as a [00:55:00] teenager, we did an adult adoption with her ’cause she’d been- … traumatized and abandoned later in life. And so we did an adult adoption with her s- and she already knew all the girls and had been- Nice Sandra: socially with them and… Sandra: So I wanted to ask you What turned it around when did you know that things had turned for Andi? One point where I knew that we were getting there, that we were making progress, was Andi was about 13 and she went into a bouncy house with Brittany at a festival, and she got picked on by some boys that were also junior high school age, and because she was heavy. Sandra: She’d been taking some medications that had made her gain weight. And so she’d gotten picked on, and she came out, and she was sad. And she and I went for a walk, and she was crying, telling me about how she felt being picked on by these kids. And I was like, “Honey, I know this was hard for you,” but I was like all smiles ’cause I was like, “I’m so proud of you right now [00:56:00] because you’re sad because somebody picked on you. Sandra: You don’t wanna hurt them. That’s amazing.” Yeah. And that was a big one. And then I would have to say she was 25 Before, before we really hit the place where, And that was a day where I was on the phone with her, and she was in a, she was in a residential home because she had actually been committed and then come out, and then she was in this residential home, and she was doing it again. Sandra: She was manipulating. She wasn’t violent at that point, but the manipulation was off the hook. And so I said, “Andie, you realize I’m the last person standing right now? What are you gonna do if I hang up this phone?” And for some reason, of all the things, that was the moment Andie stopped. Sandra: She had been married and and was divorcing at the time. Her husband was divorcing her because she’d been manipulating him. There were, there were tons of things. So she was 25, [00:57:00] 26 years old before the snap actually happened and Andie was really good at being who she is at her heart, even back then. It’s just it didn’t stick if things got difficult or if she wanted something and went to her old ways of figuring out how to get it. So- … it started to stick at about 26 and it’s- … it’s definitely stuck, Gissele: the other question I had is what made you keep holding on and keep believing when the evidence wasn’t there? I know that you suffered some financial hardships due to the separation. And so- Yeah … what kept you holding on and keep moving forward when the evidence was not there that she might get better? Sandra: It’s funny and, Brittany was no cakewalk either. That was something that took lots of time every single day. And as Brittany got older it got harder, not easier. And, … and so Brittany’s 26 now. ButI think first and foremost the big thing for me was that I [00:58:00] never for a second thought of them as not my daughters. Sandra: They were my daughters. And so there was never, it was never an option for me, even though it was… The system is built to, to tell you to opt out and to give you lots of opt-out opportunities. AndPeople would say to me all the time, “Oh,” “and they’re not even your real kids.” And I would go, “Yes, they are real kids. Sandra: Last time I checked, they weren’t plastic.” And I think it was that. And I realized that- Other people around me all the time were saying, “Oh, I couldn’t do what you did. I couldn’t do what you did.” And- Yeah … even my husband, and I was realizing that my level of commitment to them was the thing that was odd about me. Sandra: Other people would enter into these situations going, “I’m gonna love them unconditionally.” And I was like, there are some days I don’t even know if I like them, let alone love them.” Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But Sandra: that doesn’t make them not my daughter. And so I started teaching, [00:59:00] actually, parents what I called the art of unconditional commitment. Sandra: I started speaking to parents who were adopting from foster care or who had children with special needs or had adopted kids from foster care with behavioral challenges. And so I started trying to codify what unconditional commitment consists of. And there are some pieces and parts to it, and I just, I help people recognize what it looks like from the child’s point of view too, what the circumstances that they’re dealing with. Sandra: Because these kids have lost complete control. Not only have they come from trauma where they didn’t have any control, but they know that staying in your home is completely up to you. It’s not up to them. Yeah. And so they’ve got nothing to base anything on except just survival. Sandra: And helping people see the children’s point of view and where they’re coming from in an interaction is something that is really helpful. My daughter Shelly used to [01:00:00] say, when we… She and I’d both be exhausted with something Andy’d taken us through, she would say the biggest thing that’s a comfort is at least we can say if it’s this hard to be on the outside of Andy’s head, imagine how hard it is to be on the inside of Andy’s head.” Sandra: So she’s like- Wow … “Let’s just keep going.” And so- Yeah … yeah. I mean- That’s very Gissele: insightful … Sandra: I’m very blessed to have an oldest daughter who is a remarkable human being. She’s just an extraordinary human being, and she has her own challenges. She’s on the autism spectrum, but she is one of the most brilliant, incredible people I’ve ever known, and she’s a- and very courageous. Sandra: Very courageous and very compassionate. And she really helped me walk through this, there are a couple of times where I have said, I- one time in particular where Andy was actually violent toward me. The one time Andy at [01:01:00] 18- when she was stronger than any man I knew she almost accidentally almost broke both my arms in one quick move. Gissele: Wow. Sandra: And we were, like, face-to-face, and she had me by both wrists, and Shelly came up under our arms and right in Andy’s face and went, “Andy, stop. Back up,” and just interrupted where Andy was in a kind of a blackout rage, interrupted it, which could have just as easily resulted in Shelly not being here on the planet anymore. Sandra: And instead, Andy backed up. Shelly and I both got out of the way. Andy locked herself in a room for a while. And, that’s how we got through that. Andy did not stay in the house that night, police had to come, and things happened, but, it just, at the same time if it weren’t for Shelly’s presence… Sandra: and Shelly and Andy are so close. The last time that Andy w- had a complete dissociative episode and I couldn’t [01:02:00] get her to calm down, I had her in my car. And Shelly lives in California now. I had her in my car. We were on the way to the hospital. Andy couldn’t breathe, and this was, Andy was 24 or 25, and she couldn’t breathe. Sandra: And I called Shelly, and I said, “Shelly, I’m in the car with Andy on the way to the hospital.” Shelly had no warning. I said “Help me calm her down.” And she was just like, “Okay, And, let’s do it. Let’s breathe in for four, and then let’s hold for four.” And by the time we got to the hospital and the people were coming out with a wheelchair for Andy she was like, “I want my sissy.” Sandra: She didn’t want the phone to go away, and these girls are so bonded, all of them, including Maria, who’s the last one I adopted, and including what I call my daughter in love, who is Shelly’s best friend from high school that she then married later in life, and so that’s my fifth daughter. Sandra: They all have their, their challenges, their neurodiversities, their whatevers. But we just have a rule that, [01:03:00] we are a family, and we do talk it out, and we don’t lie to each other, which is hard with two with FAS. But they’re good Gissele: now, thank you very much. Gissele: And thank you so much for this extraordinary story. It’s a story of resiliency. It’s a story of unconditional love in its probably rawest form because people don’t show up the way we want them to. And to be able to see, without judgment, Andy for who she really was- And still advocate for her and also to protect Brittany. Gissele: Yes, it took extraordinary courage and a lot of work and effort, I’m sure. So my last question is just where can people find you ? Where can they, get your books? Where can they work with you? Sandra: Sandracavanaugh.com is probably the easiest way, but if they can’t spell Cavanaugh then spontaneousbrilliance.com is the same website. Sandra: Yes. And and I I have a link there where people can get on my calendar because if somebody’s got a challenge or they’re having challenges working with their kids, or [01:04:00] if they’re neurodivergent and they’re feeling unseen and unheard It’s just complimentary. Just get on a Zoom call with me and I will help. Gissele: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Sandra, for this extraordinary story and for the commitment that you continue to have for your girls. And thank you again for sharing your story. And thank you for everyone that tuned in to another episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele. Sandra: Thank Gissele: you.

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Gissele: Have you lost trust in yourself? Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support our podcast, please buy me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion. Gissele: Today, we’re talking about trusting ourselves, and our guest today is Natasha Ramlall, who works with high-functioning capable women who feel the ground crackling beneath them after a difficult life transition. As an embodied integration coach, she reflects the somatic mapping required to heal, expand, and evolve from an identity rupture, and navigate the space between who you were and who you are becoming. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Natasha. Hi, Natasha. Tasha: Hi, Gissele. How are you? Good. Gissele: Great, thank you very much. Thank you for being on the show. Gissele: Just thank you, and I’ve really been looking forward to this [00:01:00] conversation, so yeah. Gissele: I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got started in this work. Tasha: It’s such an interesting question because tracing that path, it’s, I always feel like I’m getting it a bit wrong, because it’s certainly not linear, that’s for sure. But I do identify with that- that nudge telling you that something in your life is off. And it started off, a little bit quieter, quiet enough that I could shove it aside in favor of familiarity and convenience and ease and comfort. Tasha: But it just kept getting louder. And eventually, I reached a point where I really felt like I needed to take a big step and change something. And, I’d already been very deeply [00:02:00] exploring the self-improvement world and, a lot of self-study, a lot of readings and seminars and workshops and podcasts and all the different things. Tasha: And I was fascinated and really drawn into everything that I was learning about the body-mind system. And eventually, I was led to coaching and I, started that, that certification, a dual certification in life and health coaching. And that really opened something up inside of me. Tasha: But as most people who go into coach training come to realize, it’s really just a foundation for a much greater and more specific way for each of us to understand our own experience and what we’re here to contribute to the collective. And so from there, I was [00:03:00] led into various other disciplines. Tasha: One of my favorite offerings is Around Embodied Dance, which is something that I offer in my local community and it’s become a really special and sacred practice for me both as a participant and as a facilitator. And also various forms of breathwork. And then I really came face to face with the limitations of doing healing work from that cognitive sort of behavioral coaching lens. Tasha: And not to invalidate cognitive behavioral coaching because I think it’s incredibly powerful and that there’s a lot to be gained from reframing and, attending to our mindset and understanding the world through a new lens. But for people who are really in the thick of [00:04:00] making a significant change in their life they usually reach a point where that’s just not enough. Tasha: And so the additional training I have thrown myself into is embodiment, and I took some intensive training in embodied processing. And so from all of those different things I’ve crafted what I feel I’m here to contribute and the ways that I’m here to be of service which is bringing all of those different parts of the human experience into our own evolution and our own allowing the unfolding of what it is that we’re here to be doing with this beautiful, miraculous experience that we’ve been gifted. Tasha: So that was a very long answer. I hope it actually answered what you were asking initially. Gissele: Yeah. Gissele: Absolutely. Yeah, I felt the same situation. I don’t… i’m sure we’ve talked about this before, and I’ve talked about this on this podcast before, that, [00:05:00] like my childhood dream was to work in child welfare, and when I started working there, I thought I was gonna live and die in child welfare. Gissele: And then I got a nudging to do something else, which is the things that I’m doing here. Like working on this podcast and then, working on a documentary. And I definitely had what you were talking about in terms of an identity crisis because in my previous world when I had a quote, unquote, “secure job,” I was very good at what I did. Gissele: Very good. And I was very capable. I knew how to do it. I have two masters. I’m very educated. And so I was already trained. To me, I can do that stuff with my eyes closed. But stepping into this new environment of being a business woman and trying to drum up business and then trying to figure out, what exactly am I supposed to be doing? Gissele: ‘Cause it felt like the guidance was just one step, but there’s just take this step or take this step and there was no clear direction in terms of, like, where am I going? And so I definitely felt that. And it’s still lingering on in terms of feeling [00:06:00] that I don’t know what I’m doing. Gissele: And it feels so uncomfortable to not really fully be in that space where you feel autonomy or you feel control. So what are the things that you find in terms of when people go through thattransition that helps them get through to the other side? Tasha: That’s such a great question, and I think a lot of what you just shared really hits the nail on the head in terms of coming from a place where you are very hyper-capable at what you do. And, the women that end up coming into my realm tend to be very high-functioning, very self-aware. So it’s really a huge thing to do to leave that secure, familiar identity in favor of something that, as you so perfectly named, total uncertainty, and really diving [00:07:00] into this sort of lack of clarity and guessing, and in some ways it feels like we’re starting from scratch. Tasha: And yet I think that the reason that we take that leap is because there’s a deeper knowing that there’s more in this experience. There’s more that we’re meant to be feeling. There’s more that we’re meant to be doing. And so what I find is that, we’re taught that changes and transitions are an external thing, right? Tasha: The circumstances change, and so we simply need to get on top of managing those external circumstances and then things fall into place, and we step into this new stage or this new phase or this change that has been initiated. But what I’m here to scream [00:08:00] from the top of the mountain is that the external stuff is only a tiny fraction, and what’s really the juicy and important and essential part is the internal transition. Tasha: What’s happening within us when we are stepping away from something that feels like a profile of who we are at our deepest level, and recognizing that all along that’s only been a mix of story and relationships and emotion and things that are not really the essence of who we are, but one expression of who we are, and that it’s okay to move into a new expression, And unfortunately, that internal [00:09:00] transition is not an easy thing to do, which you alluded to as well in your own journey, and I can relate in my own journey as well. Tasha: We have to really go through the labor pains of birthing this new expression of ourselves into the world. And if there are any humans on here who have gone through the process of giving birth, labor pains are no joke. And so sometimes that will look like, more of a fight/flight level of response and reactivity where we’re busily trying to be over-productive and get things happening and get things in place, and it’s really masculine energy fueled. Tasha: And this idea that I can force my certainty into place so I can get out of this uncomfortable feeling of not knowing what this is supposed to look like. And [00:10:00] because that’s just not a healthy, balanced way to be in alignment with a new expression of us, eventually that’s not gonna, that’s not gonna hold. Tasha: And then what will often happen is a period of sort of immobilization where we fall into this sort of dorsal vagal shutdown of the nervous system where we are exhausted, and disorganized, and not productive. And it feels like you can’t even recognize the woman in the mirror because the person that you used to be, that very high functioning, hyper capable woman just, she seems to have left the building. Tasha: And that is incredibly disorienting, especially for women who in the past have identified with being so capable and so high functioning. Tasha: And so I think the most [00:11:00] important place to begin is to name that’s not a personal failure. It’s not a character flaw. It’s a biological imperative when we are going through a massive transition, like the ones that often accompany, a midlife awakening or a relationship ending like a divorce, or a job collapse, or a health scare, or a chronic diagnosis. Tasha: These are really big life changing things. Grief, loss, losing a person that has been central to our life. Giving ourselves permission to be in that sort of uncertain, mucky place where we don’t recognize ourselves, as you’ve named, is deeply uncomfortable. Deeply uncomfortable. But part of that is the judgment and that inner critic that’s telling us, that we’re broken, that we are [00:12:00] failing, that we are weak, And if we can replace that inner critic with a more loving, graceful, patient voice that recognizes this is all part of the process, and that it’s okay to be in this messy place. There’s William Bridges, I believe his name is, refers to it as the the neutral zone or the void , which is that, that middle ground between something ending and a new beginning being able to take root. Tasha: So you have stepped away from what you were, but the new thing that you’re becoming is not in clear focus yet. And that requires a really deep self-trust and soul trust. So trusting in yourself, but also trusting in something greater than yourself, holding you through that experience, and making [00:13:00] space for guidance to come in a way that is not forced, but is more received and more from that feminine energy. Tasha: Which again, it’s something that we’re not taught to embrace, because it doesn’t look like it’s a productive thing. But sometimes, slowing down to speed up is the best thing that we can do. … So I think that, the major pieces, and I … And that’s why it’s so lovely to speak with you, because this is so directly connected to the work that you’re doing, that self-compassion and acceptance of our, not showing up in the ways that we have previously defined as good enough, successful functioning or whatever labels it is. Tasha: Whatever labels we use to, to justify our existence and justify our worth. And just allowing ourself the time and space, giving ourselves [00:14:00] permission to just be in that messy neutral zone for a little bit Gissele: yeah, I appreciate everything that you said. It takes an en- enormous amount of courage too. Gissele: I wanna acknowledge that, because in my experience, I faced so much fear, right? As a person who had that security, and having that security meant that my family was taken care of and, all of those things. And then to go to an environment where you have no idea what you’re doing you have no idea when things are gonna change. Gissele: And that was probably the most challenging part for me in my journey, is the patience and the trust that things are gonna be okay at the perfect time. And I think that’s when I realized that I didn’t trust, because I kept looking for the change. I’m like, “Okay, I’ve done all this inner work,” and I’ve worked so diligently . Gissele: I’m meditating nonstop and doing all of these different things and taking all these different courses and doing all of the things that I thought meant that I was changing. And I have to acknowledge, they did [00:15:00] help me. Absolutely, they did help me, but I had an idea about how things should look like and when things should change, and that caused me so much suffering. Gissele: Because there is that feeling that things happen to us, like a victim mode, but at the same time, some of us who have that, are already on that spiritual journey know that we create everything, and so then there’s the flip, which is like, “Okay, why am I creating this? And do I trust myself and trust the universe that it’s gonna pull through for me?” Gissele: What do you believe are the fundamental things that lead to us losing trust in ourselves when we have a difficult life transition? Tasha: the self-trust piece is so big. And I think for many women, it begins far further back than the moment where they step into a transition. I was actually speaking about this with a client last night and, if you grew up in a home [00:16:00] where… Tasha: And most of us did, where as you were beginning to feel some nudges of something that felt more aligned, whatever your caregivers were carrying in them that they believed was necessary to keep you safe would overshadow that alignment. And- And oftentimes there would be, ruptures between what you were feeling and understanding about your experience and the messaging that you’re receiving from your caregivers. Tasha: And as young children, we have a vested interest in trusting our caregivers above all else, because they really are a lifeline, right? If we, if there’s anything about my caregiver, the one who’s responsible for keeping me alive, if there’s anything about them that is flawed, then that’s actually a threat [00:17:00] to my own existence. Tasha: So as a child, rather than understanding that, my caregivers, my parents are flawed humans with their own patterns and survival mechanisms that they’re carrying and reacting from, we see them as perfect, and we turn it on ourselves. And we say if there’s a disconnect, the flaw must be within me. Tasha: There must be something wrong with how I’m understanding my own experience.” And, this is particularly painful in families where those ruptures are never acknowledged, but they’re swept under the rug, in favor of keeping up appearances and worrying about the opinions of other people. Tasha: Oftentimes these ruptures just, they get tucked away, and they’re never brought to light. They’re never really acknowledged. And so for a child, we turn that, [00:18:00] that cognitive dissonance on ourself and we say, “Oh, maybe I’m too sensitive. Maybe I’m making too much of this thing. Maybe that interpretation of my experience is deeply flawed.” Tasha: And so that breaking of self-trust begins at that very young, tender age, where we start to doubt our own inner voice and that intuitive knowing that led us, when we entered the world. And it starts to get overshadowed by this primal need for love, safety, and belonging, which is also important. Tasha: And then we start to reference the external world, the messaging of other people, the expectations that others deem make life worthy and allow you to deserve your existence. And we really start to focus on- Relying [00:19:00] on those external reference points. And so when we get to that place where the nudge to make a change is so strong that we can’t deny it, part of that identity rupture is really having to reckon with that self-trust that has been breaking down over a lifetime really. Tasha: Yeah. And so along with rebuilding sort of a new evolved identity, along with that is rebuilding this, the self-trust that’s required to fully step into it. Gissele: I love that. I’m so glad you said this- … because I, it really resonated with me. As a child, I was really empathic. Gissele: Really empathic. I could feel the emotions, but to me it didn’t make any sense because what I could feel and what was being expressed didn’t match. Gissele: and I acknowledge that my parents did the best they [00:20:00] could but I was gaslighted all the time. Gissele: Until much, much later in life when my mom would say, “Oh, when you were little, you were like my voice. You said all the things I didn’t wanna admit or acknowledge.” so I can see how I surrounded myself later in life with people that gaslighted What I was picking up, it was always shut down. And so I can understand how I lost that trust in myself, but I didn’t realize. I was not aware until going through this journey. It’s oh, my gosh, I really… I don’t trust my inner knowing. What helps us rebuild that trust- when we’ve lost that trust in ourselves? Tasha: Oh, Tasha: that’s such a great question, too. And, earlier in our conversation, I mentioned self-trust alongside with soul trust. Tasha: And Tasha: I think that is a really important piece, that in those moments where we feel like we don’t know what’s coming we don’t know what step to take, it can feel incredibly lonely, [00:21:00] and we feel as though I don’t know where to turn or where to look for guidance because I feel so alone in this experience. Tasha: Even our closest the closest people to us, our spouses, our best friends, our siblings, our children they can’t understand it at that fundamental level of identity rupture because it really is- so deeply rooted in something that is very difficult for any other person, any other human to understand at the level that you require in those moments. Tasha: And I think that a spiritual anchor, and I don’t want to, classify that in any particular way, because I really do feel as though there are so many different spiritual anchors that are impactful and effective, and it’s so nuanced and it’s so individual. But to loosely define what I mean, a soul trust that there [00:22:00] is more to us than this human experience of our identity that we are trying to navigate. Tasha: And if we are able to rely on a force or something that is holding us through the, that really challenging, messy middle, I think that we can find a place of deeper trust and surrender and patience. And I do think that the more that we let ourselves open up to that, the more the more comes into our life to confirm that’s the right orientation. Tasha: And then when you don’t feel as alone, I think that’s a really big piece in holding us through all of the toughest moments of our journey, is not feeling as [00:23:00] though we’re abandoned in it, but that there is something at play, an orchestration that’s, greater than we can understand. Tasha: So I think that, that, that connection to a spiritual anchor is a really important piece. And I, you’ll hear that a lot of people, when they’re going through the most difficult and challenging moments of their life, that is the thing that they eventually turn to, whether they have their whole life or whether it’s the first time ever. Tasha: We get to that place where we recognize we can’t navigate this journey completely on our own, and Tasha: we need faith in something And often that, that is the missing piece Gissele: I was reflecting on like my own journey in terms of, my relationship with, God, source, universe. People call it GUS. God, universe, source. And when I was younger, [00:24:00] I used to have so much faith in the universe. And I experienced so many magical things that happened to me, if I asked for money, it would just show up. Gissele: If I got lost, I would ask for the guidance and, like it would tell me which way to go. I don’t know where along the way I totally lost that. I think I experienced heartache, And the thing that I reflected on is, if you didn’t trust the people that were supposed to take care of you to take care of you, why would you trust some random universe, God, source that you can’t see or feel? Gissele: It makes it difficult. And what I noticed in my relationship with God, source, universe was that it was never enough. So for example, I would ask for a sign, it would give me something, and I’m like, “Not enough. Give me more.” Not enough money, not enough of a sign, not enough of a whatever. Gissele: And what that ended up happening was is that’s what I was creating. I was creating a situation of not enough, right? And so I really had to reflect on, where did my relationship break apart, and how can I [00:25:00] start to rebuild that relationship? And part of my… the thing that I’ve realized is just how much credence and weight I give to the physical world, right? Gissele: Because it has its real demands, right? Like here’s some bills, here’s some things, here’s some timelines and all of those things. So How do I embody my soul self, my higher self, my divine self, and still be able to meet the requirements that I need to meet without fear? Gissele: and my relationship with fear in particular, is really changing. I’m learning to love fear. I’m learning- … to appreciate fear, learning to acknowledge fear. Tasha: Everything you said is so important. And I think that part of the work and I often refer to it as a grounded expansion because- … I think there’s the two parts where we’re grounded in the human experience, while at the same time [00:26:00] expanding into something beyond the human experience. Tasha: And we have to- … find that delicate balance between the two things, because we’re here for both. We’re not here to just escape up into a connection with Gus. But also if we get stuck in the muck of, being in the human experience without that connection to Gus, and I love that, so I’m gonna keep using it ’cause that’s wonderful. Tasha: We can really lose our sense of purpose. What does it all mean? Why, what is all of this pain and suffering and challenge about? And so I think that is also a really big piece, is that understanding in our acceptance of something greater that is driving our particular, human journey, pain and suffering is part of it, as much [00:27:00] as, getting all of our needs met and expanding and having these beautiful awe-filled moments and all of that, and all of that. Tasha: And it’s the whole package. It’s the contrast between the two experiences of something that feels incredible and something that feels almost intolerable. And so a big part, like a really fundamental pillar in the work that I do is radical acceptance. And radical acceptance does not mean that I’m okay with everything that happens and that everything that has happened but it does remove me from focusing on it happening to me and keeping me in that victim mentality. Tasha: it gives me a step toward empowered agency and understanding that if I can learn to be with [00:28:00] my pain, and that’s, current pain, but also- The pain from our past and our traumas and our patterns that resurfaces over and over again, if I can learn to be with that and understand that it is part of me and part of what makes me and part of what I’m here to grow from Tasha: And it’s here to help me learn more about myself, and it’s here to inform that next expression of my identity. If I can learn to be with the pain it becomes, there’s a deeper sense of purpose that arises out of the suffering. And, it’s a really difficult thing to talk about because if somebody is in the throes of suffering and challenge, the last thing they wanna hear is that there’s a purpose for this. Yeah. And at the same time, you’ll often hear when people have, [00:29:00] moved beyond that really excessively painful period, they look back and they say, “I’m glad it happened,” or “It ended up being so important to getting me to where I am now, and I wouldn’t trade that for anything.” Tasha: And yeah. And I think that experience of going through something incredibly painful and finding purpose that is born of it can be a very, it can be a very important piece in awakening to something bigger than just, the circumstances of our pain. Gissele: there’s a part of me that likes to believe that we don’t have to suffer. I like Michael Beckwith’s perspective “Pain pushes until vision pulls.” clearly am at the stage of my evolution where there’s still elements that, of suffering that happen, right? Gissele: That’s okay, right? My higher self, Gus, says “Choose it. Love [00:30:00] it,” Even though I’m like… I give a side-eye. I’m like okay, thanks.” I do like to believe that there’s an element where we don’t have to… That doesn’t mean we don’t experience pain. But the suffering part of it- can be something we don’t necessarily have to choose- once we get to that point of our evolution, that we understand our bigger purpose, our bigger vision, and so on. I have to admit that and I’m admitting it to help my listeners I was angry with Gus for a very long time. Because things did not happen the way that I expected them to. Gissele: And I had to admit that to myself, If I was being guided to do one thing, I did it, and then I was guided to do something else, and I did it, and I kept doing it and doing it. Gissele: And I didn’t feel like from a financial perspective, that things were flowing, that things were moving, right? And I’m like I’m doing all of the things,” right? And so I was so frustrated and the perspective was always patience. [00:31:00] Patience, right? And I will say that the guidance now it’s done, Gissele: And so let’s talk about our relationship with patience. Gissele: This is something that I really have gotten to have to embrace, so my relationship with patience is really changing. When I feel impatient, I now acknowledge impatience and say, it’s hard to wait. Gissele: It’s hard to do that. It’s scary to wait. It’s scary to do that.” But it took a while for me to get here and to acknowledge the fact that it was my own impatience that was holding things up. Gissele: And, realizing that my time and Gus’s time isn’t the same time. And so can you talk a little bit about that? Tasha: Oh, patience, yeah. Tasha: And we’re at a time in humanity where that is… it’s, what’s happening in our world is completely at odds with what’s required of us to embody more patience in our [00:32:00] journey, right? Tasha: Like we’re living in a more immediate gratification, immediate answers, immediate turnover. We don’t need to wait for anything, and that’s considered progress. And at the same time, it has us speeding up and just everything is getting so much faster. And I really think that in order to align with that self-trust, soul trust, radical acceptance, unconditional love, and self-compassion, all of these different things that we’ve, touched on, we have to slow down. Tasha: We have to slow down the pace with which we’re trying to move through this journey. and I recognize as I say that, I’m speaking from a very privileged place because there are a lot of humans who do not have that option. And so I definitely [00:33:00] want to name that there are different stages and phases of our human experience. Tasha: And I am speaking only at the one that I am fortunate enough to be living, which I think hopefully many of your listeners can resonate with my privilege as well. So I just want to say that I’m not – I don’t want to make a blanket statement for all humans because I recognize that we are all at different points of this experience and this journey. Tasha: But slowing down and allowing time and space to expand by the very act of slowing down, I think it allows your patience to grow and expand within you because life looks different when we’re not rushing, when we’re not in an [00:34:00] overly productive mode, checking things off our to-do list and then getting to the next thing and always focused on the next thing that has yet to be accomplished. Tasha: When we reorient to understanding that this is our life and our best way of approaching it is to be present within it as much and as often as possible, life looks different. It starts to look less about Tasha: the boxes that we’re checking or the expectations that we’re meeting outside of ourselves and more about the experience of being in our life. And It’s so counterculture in the West in particular, right? We value, and, just referencing that masculine/feminine energy again, and that’s not, we’re not talking about men and women. Tasha: We’re talking about the masculine and feminine that exists within all humans. But we’ve really [00:35:00] overvalued that masculine driving energy, and, the messaging is always biohack your way into whatever existence you wanna create for yourself. But I think part of really coming into relationship with Gus is to understand what is within our control and what isn’t, and releasing the need to control our lives into a particular expression, and that’s a hard thing to do. Tasha: That’s a really hard thing to do, and it requires patience, and it requires trust, and again, all of the different things that we’ve spoken about. But I think that it is the requirement to understand Tasha: if I am, if I am achieving… what is it behind the desire that’s driving me to do this thing? What is it that my deeper longing is? And if I get really honest and clear about, the [00:36:00] emotional driver of everything that I’m doing in my life, I can maybe release that need for controlling how I arrive at that that emotion that I’m seeking, and I can, be in action. Tasha: I can do the things that make sense for me, that feel good to me, that feel guided, but then I also have to acknowledge that and part of it is out of my hands. I can do what I can do, and then I need to allow what is not known to me to unfold and be ready to respond to that with acceptance, with grace, with compassion and with patience. Gissele: So thank you for acknowledging the fact that you have privilege. Because I think there are many people that feel like the pressure to make an income or the pressure to make different choices that may not always support the slowing down. There are many [00:37:00] workplaces that still work in the same way of that- constant. Gissele: you have to grind it out. You have to kinda keep moving. And definitely even social media, people only post their successes. They don’t post the struggles that happen along the way the timing the fear every time they had to keep believing in the vision when nothing was showing up and how scary that can be Gissele: People don’t talk about the suffering that happens invisibly. There’s a lot of invisible suffering- … that people don’t acknowledge. And so it makes it difficult for us to say, “Hey, this is normal. This is a normal part of the process. I’m not doing anything wrong,” right? Gissele: And I kinda felt that when you were talking about the pendulum swing. So you go from a hyper high-functioning woman to the point where you’re like, a lot of the time you spend meditating And so you do kinda have that pendulum swing. And so it’s really interesting to see how our society isn’t created to, have that slowing down, that, go slow to go fast. What advice would you have for [00:38:00] women that are doing the work, working towards embodiment but aren’t seeing the results just yet- and how they can stay in that courage and that self-trust? Tasha: Yeah. That’s a tough one. But I … something that I come back to in my own experience is I’m often redefining what those markers of success are for me. Because, part of the impetus to make a change in the first place in my life, and for me it was more of a choice than something that was forced on me, so I’d like to name that’s also a different experience for various women and different identity ruptures and transitions that they’re going through. Tasha: But for me, part of the impetus was that- I don’t want my life to be like this anymore. And so if I’m comparing my success in the new iteration of my life with what I deemed successful when I wasn’t [00:39:00] happy with it anymore- … Tasha: Then there’s a misalignment there. And I need to really think about what are the things driving me to be different, and have I met those markers? Tasha: One really big driver for me was that I wanted to be the owner of my own time. That was something that felt really core to my values because I wanted to have the time and space to make the choices for how I spend my time. And so in many ways I have successfully achieved that. Tasha: Now, the trade-off is that, oh boy, I’m the owner of my own time, which means I have to use it, and I have to use it well, and I have to get all of my needs met- and it’s all on me. And so there is definitely a trade-off, and as you said the invisible suffering of that is [00:40:00] absolutely real and felt, and, but is it worth it to me? It is, and so I keep going. And if it wasn’t, if at some point being the owner of my own time was not worth what I was needing to sacrifice in order to have that trade-off, then maybe I would reorient and choose something different, and maybe I would say, “Maybe my path doesn’t feel aligned anymore. Tasha: I thought that this was what I was supposed to be doing, but something is not aligned with those values that led me to make the change in the first place. Let me renegotiate and see if maybe I’m meant to be moving pivoting slightly, changing the trajectory a little bit.” But for me so far, when I, check in on those markers and I get really honest with myself, I can say so many of the things that caused me to make a change in the first place, I feel [00:41:00] successful by those markers. Tasha: And that keeps me going, and that helps me to to have whatever it is that I need to stay on the path and to keep, doing the invisible suffering that comes along with it. Gissele: Yeah. So when I think about my own journey I also really resonated with what you said because I did the exact same thing. I used to use the old ruler from my previous job to apply to this one and say, “This is what it should look like,” and that caused a lot of suffering. Gissele: I had these old markers from a previous life where I was very successful. And so to go from being someone who’s very successful, high achieving, to somewhere where it’s like crickets, right? It’s a lot of work to getsporadic things, right? And so for me, it was like I don’t know what I’m doing. Gissele: I know that the path isn’t to grind it out more, I’ve had to change how I measure success.  Instead I’ve become super grateful. Super grateful for [00:42:00] every little, tiny thing. Every little thing that I have, I’m grateful for. So grateful, and constantly saying that to myself. And that has been a really positive experience. Gissele: and acknowledging the positive that my work has on people and on society has also been really important. Gissele: And when I started to acknowledge that, I started to get external acknowledgement. Isn’t that interesting? talking about invisible suffering, and I think this is a really important thing that I wanna touch on. There were so many times in my life where I didn’t share with people that I was suffering. I don’t know if maybe it’s ’cause I was conditioned to not unburden my suffering on other people, or because maybe I thought they couldn’t hold it. Gissele: And so sometimes I had observed that some people in my life- There’s a lot of superficiality. There’s a lot of protection, right? And so with people that I really trust in my life, like my sister and, my mom we talk about everything, right? Gissele: Like I have no [00:43:00] problem being completely transparent and I’m like, “Ah,” like allowing myself to just flood and kinda dump my bucket and, they reassure me But there’s other people in my life where I’ve noticed just how much invisible suffering happens, but there’s the need to protect yourself from being vulnerable. And so I see that so much in our society that the need to protect ourselves from vulnerability prevents us from addressing and talking about our invisible suffering. Gissele: And in this culture right now on social media of everybody has to be happy and look at all the positive things that I’m doing- … there doesn’t seem to be any room for people that are being genuinely vulnerable and saying, “I don’t have my shit figured out. I don’t.” I’m just winging it out here and I’m trusting, and every day I’m taking a step towards trust, I’m taking a step toward courage and so I think that we need more places that are authentic in order for us to address our invisible suffering . Gissele: I’m just curious as to your thoughts. Tasha: Yeah. I agree with you 150% [00:44:00] that we need more spaces to practice authenticity, and I’m very deliberately choosing the word practice because I think that, one of the reasons why it’s difficult to be vulnerable about our invisible suffering is because in a lot of contexts we’ve framed our invisible suffering as a weakness. Tasha: And so it’s a threat to that mask identity that we are using. And, as we’re talking about identity and that is the armor that keeps us safe in the way that we move through the world. So any threat to that armor feels very dangerous. It feels like a threat to our love, our safety, our belonging. Tasha: And so yeah, it’s not gonna be easy for us to [00:45:00] be transparent and say, “Hey, I’m really having a tough time with this thing.” And it seems like nobody else is, and it’s just me, and so I’m thinking there’s something really wrong with me that I’m not able to figure this thing out. But I think that if we are able, and I, one of the things that I do is I I facilitate groups of women in this work of practicing our authenticity. Tasha: Because when we gather and we are able to establish a level of trust and safety within a particular group of women and I work with women but I think that this work is absolutely just as important for men as well. But when we’re able to gather in those spaces and practice being authentically vulnerable and being accepted rather than rejected in that vulnerability, [00:46:00] it helps us to rewire the parts of us that have never felt safe to do it in the past or in, in the other, external circumstances of our life. Tasha: And over time, as we practice that and we are accepted in it, and we rewire those parts of us, we are able to start taking that authentic self into new spaces where previously it would have been, it would have felt far too scary, far too dangerous. Tasha: And I struggled with that for a long time, and eventually I came to a place where I realized I don’t need to be seen in every space that I inhabit. Tasha: Oof. Tasha: Yeah. but I do need to be seen in some of the spaces that I inhabit. Tasha: And so that was a really important distinction for me Tasha: And when I free myself from needing that in all of the different spaces, it allows me to actually [00:47:00] be present with what I do gain. Tasha: And there’s always a gain. Like you were talking about gratitude. Tasha: Yeah. Tasha: When we reorient to noticing all of the different things that we’re grateful for, it works in the same way when we reorient to being present with what is true in any particular moment, in any particular group of people. Tasha: There’s always something, and if there’s nothing, then that’s definitely a situation that we don’t need to be putting ourselves in at all anymore. And, if there’s a situation that is so toxic that there’s absolutely no glimmer of something beneficial for your soul, there’s no need for you to be in it. Tasha: But I think in a lot of spaces we don’t let ourselves see the beauty and the benefit and the goodness that’s there because we’re looking for something that it’s just not the right place to find it. Gissele: So powerful. I totally resonated with wearing the mask of failure, Gissele: there were times when I was too afraid to be vulnerable [00:48:00] because I didn’t wanna be seen as a failure, right? Because I was so high-functioning for me to fail at something. Gissele: Because I derive my personal value from my high functioning. That’s how I was valued and acknowledged in my family circle. Oh, yeah. The fact that I was high functioning made me lovable. It made me acceptable in a place where I never felt like I belong And I also love that you mentioned the fact that there’s going to be spaces where you do not, maybe not even get that. ‘Cause, ’cause there are spaces- Where I do not feel like I fit. That I do not feel like I resonate with the people. Gissele: So it’s difficult the interplay of saying, “Okay, how do I show up here in a way that acknowledges your presence while I’m still trying to be there for myself and not put you first instead of me?” Yeah. You know what I mean? I do, yeah. Yeah. Tasha: And I think that, what you’re sharing is it’s so [00:49:00] real. Tasha: And I also think it’s not like a one and done. And so- Yeah … the way that I phrased it before, it may have sounded like, “Oh, I fixed this thing, and now I’m all good. I’m just seeing the good stuff.” And that is so not true. But it’s an ongoing practice, and some days it’s in my best interest to choose not to go, not to attend it, not to be there, because I’m in a place where Ii’m feeling too tender orI need to be surrounded by the people who really do see me. And so I’ll step back in those cases. And then there’s other days where I feel really bolstered, and I’m able to enter those spaces, and I’m really able to gain value from being with people who don’t necessarily, resonate at the same vibration as me or see me as deeply as I would love to be seen. Tasha: And so it’s a day-to-day negotiation and an understanding of myself and what I need in any particular moment, and recognizing that my human [00:50:00] experience is never static. I’m always up and down. My cycles, my hormones, my moods, the circumstances of my life and my relationships and the world around me. Tasha: And I’m like a different version of myself from second to second. And so letting myself be flexible also in, in all of those different in all of those different spaces. And I think that was part of the thing of recognizing that, okay, authenticity doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to show up and be 100% authentic in every way with every single person you know. Tasha: It’s just not a realistic or even a desirable way for me to live my… It would be exhausting, actually. I think about it, I was like, “I don’t think I have the energy or the capacity- To do that. But understanding myself enough and feeling the embodied experience of when that’s [00:51:00] aligned and when it isn’t, that work helps me to discern, how to show up in a way that makes the most sense for me, from moment to moment and person to person and experience to experience Gissele: and, yeah. Gissele: And I would say that’s a truly compassionate approach. to be constantly checking in with yourself It’s so funny. I’ve talked to people, across the world people have had so many different experiences, and there’s so many of us who want a world full of love and compassion and we’re trying to fix the world. Gissele: let’s eradicate war, when we can’t even do that within our homes or with ourselves. And so it’s always important to start with ourselves, and here’s what I can offer and I can give so that then I can show up better for you. And if I don’t have it that day, it’s better that I not come so that I don’t hurt you or I don’t cause strife or, or bring more conflict. Gissele: And so I think it is a very kind and loving thing to do to check in with yourself and say, ” Can I show up today?” And just [00:52:00] truly be grateful for whatever they can offer and love it. Or maybe today I don’t have it. And that is okay. That is okay for me to do. Yeah. And I think that’s truly loving. Gissele: Which goes to my next question- … which is what is your definition of self-love? Self-love. Tasha: It’s such a good question. My definition of unconditional love is acceptance without judgment. And so self-love would be self-acceptance without judgment, and that, I think, is a really big ask. It’s a really big ask, but I do think that orienting toward that acceptance of all the parts that make us, and all the experiences and all the shameful things and all the disgusting things and all the aggravating things [00:53:00] brings us into a level of wholeness that’s very healing. Gissele: I love it. Last question. Where can people find you? Where can they work with you? What do you wanna share with the audience? Tasha: I’m not a big user of social media. I’m not exploiting that as well as I probably could be. So the best way to find me is just to visit my website, and that is humanistcoaching.ca. Tasha: And there’s some different free resources. There’s one right now that is really wonderful for women who are ex- navigating an identity rupture, and it’s a guided audio, and it helps us to resource into a felt sense of safety within the body, which for me is ground zero, like step one, foundational to doing any kind of embodiment work or any embodied exploration. Tasha: So it’s a really great resource and I hope your listeners will go check it out. MEDITATION found here: https://humanistcoaching.eo.page/safety-pulse Gissele: [00:54:00] Thank you so much, Natasha, for this incredible conversation and for coming and sharing your wisdom. And thank you to everyone who tuned into another episode of Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: See you soon. Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support our podcast, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion. Today, we’re gonna be talking about the power of surrender, and we’re talking with Darryl Ditmer. Gissele: After a humble and often tumultuous beginning to his life, Darryl Ditmer was confronted with a crossroads at the age of 19. Now having found success in many areas of life, Darryl has committed himself to helping others do the same through his coaching, his books, interactions, and how he chooses to show up in his world every day. Gissele: Darryl lives with his wife, Christina, in the mountains of north Georgia, where a quieter life reinforces the same truths he teaches. Please join me in welcoming Darryl. Hi, Darryl. Daryl: Hello. Thanks so much, Gissele. I appreciate you having me on. Gissele: Yes, of [00:01:00] course. I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience a little bit about some of your beginnings and some of the struggles, and what the pivotal point was for you. Daryl: Sure. I was born in the Midwest, and actually in Detroit, in Michigan. And my dad was a mechanic, and my mom took care of us kids and the household and it was I guess a… It was just really normal for… At that time and in that place, it was just normal. Every… I thought every kid’s dad worked at either GM, Ford, or Chrysler, because it was Detroit, and either that or they were a farmer. Daryl: And that was kinda how it went. So in and around the cities and suburbs was one sort of way of life, and then out in the country was another way of life. But… So my dad was a pretty tough guy. He was he was a Korean War veteran Just a big, tough, strong dude. Daryl: And not an unfair guy but very, discipline-oriented, that sort of thing and that’s how I grew up. And I must say that my [00:02:00] mom was probably in many ways- A little tougher than my dad, and the reason I say that is because she had a difficult, a very difficult upbringing, and had some really difficult things happen to her, some very traumatic things. Daryl: So that is from whence I came and a lot was expected of me as a young person in terms of grades, in terms of sports. And I believe as I look back that my parents were trying to live through us kids, and my dad was very sports oriented. My brother and sister did not embrace sports and my mom was all about manners and grades and, how we’re looking out there in the world. Daryl: And so that to me was a lot of pressure. I felt a lot of pressure to perform, and I felt a lot of pressure to do well in all these areas that were expected of me and however that fit into my beginning of the drinking and the drugging career is how it fit. I don’t [00:03:00] blame, I don’t have animosity looking backwards, anything like that. Daryl: It’s just it became my life. And so I started drinking and doing drugs, and it was a fairly quick slope that I was heading down. It started at 13 and it progressed and the thing that progressed is me becoming someone other than I was raised to be. I became a completely different person. Daryl: I was… I became a liar, a cheater and a thief and, just did things that were not cool, not good things and that started to grate on my soul. It truly did, on my heart, on my soul, on my mind because I couldn’t get out of it. I didn’t know exactly what was wrong, but I couldn’t move out of it. Daryl: I was young. Everybody was, for the most part, not everybody but a lot of people were doing the same things that I was doing. Destructive behaviors, all that sort of stuff. And the interesting part is some more [00:04:00] normal youngsters at that time were falling out of the circle, and then it became a circle of some fairly sick humans, including me with the drugs, with the alcohol, and with the trouble. Daryl: So that’s where I, that’s where I come from. It continued to progress. I started to just not care about many things, although I was probably fooling myself because deep down I did care. And that’s what was grating my insides so terribly. But I tried to convince myself that I didn’t. Daryl: So I was faced with an intervention when I was 18 years old, and I was basically, “Get out of our life or go talk to this drug counselor.” And that was the choices presented to me. And I didn’t know what to do. I was scared to death. I was… i’d been found out, and I’d been being found out for a long time, but that was the culmination of oh man I’ve gotta face this. And I didn’t want to [00:05:00] face it. And so they said, “If you’re gonna go, meet us here at this place at this time.” And I said, “I will let you know.” And I ended up going, and I planned on… Daryl: I was just placating the whole thing to a certain extent. I planned on lying. I planned on just being my normal self that would get myself out of these scrapes. And as soon as I walked into this guy’s office, he’s “You can’t lie to me. You cannot lie to me. I don’t want to hear it. I’m just… Daryl: I’m gonna call you out on it, and I’m gonna kick you out, and then you’re gonna be in the same place you were before you came in.” And so he intimidated me at my ripe old age of 18 years old. I was scared to death. And so What happened was… And I don’t remember much of what was said, but I know that I said to him or was as honest with him as I could be at that time in my life. Daryl: Whatever that equated to, I don’t know, but I told him. And he said we gotta get you into drug and alcohol treatment.” So that was the culmination. I w- I will say this [00:06:00] that three days before I went into drug and alcohol treatment, I was at a New Year’s Eve party, and I was… Daryl: I just kept getting sicker and sicker, and I was at this party, and there were 100, 200 people around. I don’t know. There was a bunch of people, a bunch of people I knew. And I was the most lonely and scared and just curled up inside I’d ever been in my life, and I… the thought occurred to me and I think I was taking it probably more seriously than I wanna think about, that what would happen if I just ended it and I just stopped being on this earth and took myself out? Daryl: And that’s… Three days later, I went into treatment, but that’s my beginnings. Gissele: Thank you for sharing that. That must have been really difficult as a teen. Do you think that there was any aspect of you that was trying to rebel against- what your parents were bringing forth? I think sometimes when we don’t agree with the parenting or don’t feel like we align to that, that we’re gonna do the exact opposite as a way to wanna be more authentically ourselves, [00:07:00] ironically. Daryl: I think so. A- and I think it was a, probably a combination of rebellion, but also just trying to relieve the pressure, just trying to find another way to feel. And once I discovered another way to feel, I just wanted more, and I wanted to keep going down that, that path which just led to worse and worse problems. Daryl: What did you find was the pivotal point where you actually started to see an upward movement? So things, instead of going in a negative way, started to be more positive I would say it was during treatment. I was in a 30-day inpatient treatment program and that was horribly frightening because I had to talk. Daryl: I had to tell people, or at least try to tell people who I was and be honest with myself and honest with them, and all these things that I was absolutely not familiar with. I don’t remember getting any memos as a kid that [00:08:00] these are the things that I’m supposed to be doing. Gissele: Yeah. Daryl: And so they started pulling me apart, and I had to start being vulnerable to whatever extent I could be at that time. Daryl: But I also met some people who had been in my shoes, and one counselor in particular and he was now a counselor at this treatment program. And so that gave me some hope because he seemed like a pretty happy, peaceful, just… He seemed like he was doing fine, and I was not fine. Daryl: So- Gissele: Yeah … Daryl: so I think that is where I was… I started to recognize that maybe there’s something different out there for me than how I’d been living. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to know in particular what helped you realize that surrender really was the path, ’cause you have two books, When I Stopped Fighting: The Unexpected Joy of Getting My Head Out of My Ass, and When You Stop Fighting: The Road You’re On [00:09:00] is Your Own Asphalt. Gissele: Can you talk a little bit about you realizing how much you might have been fighting life and that the path was surrender? Daryl: Absolutely. I grew up with, like I said, my dad was tough, my mom was tough. It was a, no pain, no gain, rub some dirt on it, you’re not hurt if you’re not, in the hospital sort of thing. Daryl: And that was how I grew up and, but there was also a piece of it where we didn’t expend our emotional energy on any sort of vulnerabilities or anything like that. It was just, if we were angry or if we… something great happened oh, this happened, or I’m pissed. That was- Yeah Daryl: that was the energy. So as I… I got into the 12 steps during and after treatment, and that was a very positive thing for me, but I met a mentor and he said to me, as he listened to me struggling and fighting and just resisting everything, he said, [00:10:00] “Daryl, when you stop fighting, the fighting stops.” Daryl: And so that was a very pivotal time for me, and I probably understood it about this much at that time. But something resonated for me where it made sense. It was like, oh, wait, so I’m the one that’s putting up all the fights. I’m the one that’s quote unquote, responsible for my existence, my side of the street. Daryl: That’s on me. And that I don’t have to fight the world, and if I allow the fight with myself to wane, then the fights with the world just naturally go away because I’m not in fight mode all the time. So from a surrender perspective, that was… the first thing I had to do was say, “You know what? Daryl: I cannot live this way. I cannot keep doing the drinking and the drugs and the lying and cheating and stealing.” So I had to surrender that life for whatever [00:11:00] was on the other side of that life, and I wasn’t exactly sure what that was. So that was the beginning of the whole sort of the big surrender, right? Daryl: The big surrender oh man I just can’t do life the way I’ve been doing it. And then, for the last 40 years, there’s been a whole lot of other surrenders that I’ve had to do because life continues to happen and, if anybody’s like me, they’ll continue to fight. So I had to continue to let some of these things go. Gissele: Thank you. I wanna just take a step back to go back to when you are raised by emotionally unavailable parents. It’s really interesting because you’re not taught about how to manage any of those difficult feelings, and the emotional repertoire really gets boiled down to very few emotions. Gissele: And I’ve noticed this in terms of… and you can correct me if you disagree that, the emotional depth for boys in particular is very shallow. It’s like anger’s okay and maybe another difficult [00:12:00] emotion, but not the desire for nurturance and vulnerability. And for women, it’s the same. Gissele: Anger’s not okay, but all of these other emotions are fine. And so we kinda emotionally handicap them in the sense of not enabling them to feel the full range. We’re full range beings. We’re supposed to feel all of these different emotions so that we can figure out for ourselves, and so how did your relationship with vulnerability change as you were engaging with that during your treatment? Daryl: Honestly, I can’t say if I allowed myself to be vulnerable enough to even cry in treatment. And honestly, it’s a wonderful part of my life now. I love to just let go and let things out and that happens certainly much more frequently than I used, than it used to happen. Daryl: That’s for sure. So it was… we could cry if we were hurt physically hurt. Yeah. My brother whacked me or something, I could cry, something like that, [00:13:00] and he could cry or something like that. But, the other things, like you mentioned, just weren’t necessarily a part of the repertoire. Daryl: And I think that goes very deep with the box of stuff that we’re handed as we’re coming up in the world and, getting used to what this whole life thing is about, and they say, “Okay, you’re allowed to believe this and this and this,” and it’s five things, “and if you don’t, you’re in trouble, and this is gonna happen, and this is gonna happen.” Daryl: So that range of emotion just gets “Okay, I gotta protect myself ’cause this is all I’m allowed to do.” Gissele: Yeah. Daryl: A- and so in treatment, it started to expand i- in terms of my ability to have some vulnerability and to feel some things and- And a lot of the things… there’s a theory, which I subscribe to, that, that when we start drinking and doing drugs in a way that we’re suppressing ourselves and suppressing our emotions, we stop growing [00:14:00] emotionally. Daryl: And it’s really a thwarted truncated okay, this is gonna shut off for a while. So when I got sober, I started feeling things, and I’m like, “What is this, and what is this?” And- … I didn’t understand what was happening. However, it felt really cool when it stopped being so scary. Daryl: It was like oh, so that’s what this… I started to feel a little bit of peace of mind, and some contentment and some sadness, and some regret, and fears, and, all kinds of different stuff. And I’m like, wow. And and that’s just been a cracking open situation for me for a long time and I continue to do things. Daryl: I went to a a retreat, I don’t know, a few months ago, and it was really all about cracking you open. And I’m like… And I got cracked open after… i’ve been doing this stuff for a long time, and I got… I just got cracked open. I was… But it was the most beautiful, it was the most [00:15:00] beautiful experience because I was allowed to be exactly who I am and what I am in those moments. Daryl: And I have a, I have wonderful relationships in my life and my wife and kids and, we can be who we are, which is a cool thing. But that just took it to an- another level, and it was beautiful. So I know that was a roundabout way, Gissele, of answering your question but that whole world opens up and it’s… Daryl: And surrendering to the old world and embracing not necessarily the new world, but embracing whatever’s next. And that’s a pretty cool place to live our lives from. Gissele: Wonderful. I was thinking as a person who grew up with two parents that had their own experiences one of the things I was taught was that they couldn’t… And I, and this took me a while to realize. They couldn’t hold my difficult feelings- Because they couldn’t hold their own, and so they needed me to regulate [00:16:00] my emotions so that they would be okay. Gissele: And so I stopped realizing that it was, like, either my fault or that I didn’t deserve. It was just that they couldn’t hold it, right? And that actually goes to my next question because one of the things that I found with surrender in my own journey is how challenging I found it. Gissele: Because I didn’t trust the people in my life. I needed to control a lot of my environment to feel safe. The thought of surrendering meant then that means bad things are gonna happen. That means if I just let go, then I’m gonna be unsafe. Yeah. Did you ever have kind of those moments, and how did you manage some of those fears? Daryl: Absolutely. A- and I think that’s a very natural part of the process, ’cause we have this sort of, I have to keep my arms around what’s going on. And to whatever degree, and the sort of give and take of that is we don’t really have control. We don’t have control anyway, although we try to exert that. Daryl: And so I [00:17:00] absolutely tried to exert that. And when they talked about surrender, as many things they talked about when I was young in 19, 20, 21, I didn’t understand any of it. So for me to surrender it wasn’t really difficult to surrender and say, “You know what? I can’t do the drinking and drugs anymore because it’s gonna lead to a really bad place, so I am going to surrender that and try to do things differently.” Daryl: That was okay. But what about surrendering the belief system that I was downloaded with as a kid, or surrendering- … the friends or the toxic people that I had in my life? And I think those are the ones that can get a little hairy because, ‘ cause these are the only people I know, and they just happen to be doing those things. Daryl: And some of them are family members. Some of the, those toxic people are family members. And then, we have to figure out how to handle that as we continue to [00:18:00] get better. But yes it was definitely difficult. I didn’t understand it but I started to let go, and I think this was a really big one for me, is I started to let go of the belief system that I was handed, which included religious stuff- and that was a big one for me. Daryl: It included how I go about my daily life. It included my, my parents weren’t like… My dad was, a nice guy. My mom was a nice person, too, but they weren’t like, “Oh, hey, how are you?” They weren’t big socialites. They weren’t anything like that. So I’m unraveling all this stuff, and I’m not a big time social guy either but you know what? Daryl: I know what it feels like when I smile at the person who’s cashing me out at the grocery store, or I say hi to somebody at a gas station because I’m not so wrapped up in myself that I want them to feel noticed, and that’s something that, that’s light years away from [00:19:00] how I was raised. Daryl: So there’s some big things, but there’s also some little things, and little behavioral things that I can engage in that help free me from the bondage of what I f- try to think I feel safe holding on to. And the interesting thing is, the freedom is out here somewhere. The freedom’s way out here. Daryl: This is the cage, and that’s what I have to let go of and surrender. Gissele: Thank you for sharing that. What was coming up for me was the whole concept of uncertainty, right? what you were considering was you’re thinking about changing identities, right? Gissele: You’re no longer that person who does drugs. You’re no longer that person that has those beliefs. But then on the other side of that is, I don’t know what this looks like. I don’t know who will stay behind. I don’t know what that person is going to do. What helped you trust that it was going to be okay, that you were on the journey that was probably on the upward, in, in how to manage some of the losing of those relationships? Daryl: I found a lot [00:20:00] of solace, and this is for me, it’s not for everybody. I found a lot of solace in the 12 steps, and where I was surrounded by people… and, look, there’s it’s 12 steps. There’s a lot of unhealthy people there. There’s a lot of toxic people there. But I had to find people who… Daryl: A- and I was trying not to be toxic it’s this whole soup of stuff. And and some of it can be sick stuff. So I needed to find because we have to, and I had to have a, not a goal, but an intention and an aim for what I wanted in this life. And it was worth sacrificing security to move into the uncertainty because of what I wanted. Daryl: I wanted peace of mind, I wanted contentedness, I wanted good relationships. I just, I wanted to have a life that was different and significantly better than where I was. So was it scary? Yes, it was absolutely [00:21:00] scary, but it was… The juice was worth the squeeze as far as what I envisioned for my life. Daryl: And I couldn’t go… You had mentioned the negative trajectory. I couldn’t go south anymore. I had to go north. And so I had to surround myself with people who… A- and they say, a lot of people say, “Surround yourself with people who will support you.” I like to say, “Surround myself with people who are also wanting to move their lives in a direction.” Daryl: And I think that’s crucially important because, ’cause I can get support from a lot of people, but if they’re not trying to be healthier, that may not be the right person for my life. I want people who are also moving in that direction with their lives. And so anyway, yes, horrifying and scary, but I knew because of the people that I saw and I experienced and I met and I aligned myself with that there was something out there. Daryl: So it was worth it to [00:22:00] have that fear. Gissele: were you able to do certain things to regulate your nervous system? ‘Cause I sometimes find that your mind you can push yourself through, and, “This is my new identity and this is who I am now,” all those things. Gissele: But sometimes our bodies just react from a place of history, right? Were there things that helped you address the fear as you were moving towards that new identity? Daryl: Absolutely. There were. And what I found was my mind, if left to its own devices , can be very, It’s a scary, can be a scary place to be, with all the thoughts and the conversations living up there and the resentments that I might be feeling or that I, that… Daryl: Whatever it is. And those sort of things just keep playing and playing. And so one of the things that helped me immensely and… Was writing. And it… We didn’t necessarily call it journaling back then, but just writing. And what I did is I took out a big yellow legal pad when I could [00:23:00] afford one, and I would just write, and I would just write and write, and I would take everything that was in here and everything that was up here and just get it out. Daryl: And that allowed me to- Instead of just being a mess that was swirling up here, I could look at it and I could make some sense of it, and I could say, “You know what? I kinda get it. I kinda understand it. It’s okay.” It just took the sting out of it. So writing was a huge one for me. And then two other things that I learned that is, are continue… Daryl: All this stuff is just life stuff as we go, right? There’s no… I’m not gonna graduate from the school of life until, it’s all over for my body here. At least for this ride. And so I learned meditation, and I learned breathing practices. And I started learning those many years ago, and it’s been just a time of practice ever since. Daryl: And sometimes I practice really consistently, and at other times oh wow, I haven’t meditated in a while or wow, I stopped doing [00:24:00] that breathing practice. No wonder things start to notch up a little bit. So and I’ve been pretty consistent over the last many years but that’s how it goes, and it’s okay for it to go that way. Daryl: And I think it’s… When I’m not doing it, it teaches me how much it means to me to do it, and I think that’s really important lessons that we can garner from, doing things that maybe are taking us off the track versus doing things that are putting us back on the track. And so those are three things that have really helped me over time. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for that. As a ongoing meditator, I can attest to the power. I was wondering what role forgiveness had, whether it be self-forgiveness or forgiveness of the others, had in helping you shift identities. Daryl: Forgiveness is a big one, and it hasn’t necessarily been… A- and I’ll break it up between other people and myself. Daryl: The [00:25:00] most difficult person to, to forgive was me. A- and that is for the angst that I put people through. And just because I got sober doesn’t mean I was perfect right from the get-go. Nor am I now, it’s just, it’s a constant improvement over the course of a lifetime. And so I do everything I can now to not put myself in a position where I need to forgive myself, and I also understand how important it is for me to understand that other people make mistakes. Daryl: And there’s… This probably goes into boundaries a little bit, but what we used to say a long time ago, I never heard the word boundaries till recently. We used to say, “You teach people how to treat you.” And that was really important for me to understand because if I have toxic people in my life and they’re constantly needing to be [00:26:00] forgiven for something that they’re doing, maybe I need to reconsider who’s in my life. Daryl: Maybe I need to start surrendering some of those relationships. And there’s a whole gamut of things that have to do with forgiveness. But first and foremost is I need to have some grace with myself, and then that allows me to have grace… Everything I do with me allows that to expand out into the world and the universe. Daryl: And so when I have that forgiveness and grace for myself, it allows me a lot easier time to, to understand and forgive and give grace to others. Gissele: I agree that, it’s important for us to have boundaries, and in fact, it’s an act of self-compassion to have boundaries with people. A boundary for me is, an act of self-love. Gissele: Although it can feel very difficult to make space with people, especially if they are family members, right? Like, how do you take [00:27:00] time without hurting their feelings? How do you do it in a way that’s loving and not resentful or rejecting? They are gonna interpret it how they’re interpreting it. Gissele: But at the same time, like, how do you create that distance in a way that is still loving on all sides, right? Daryl: Yeah. It’s a difficult balance because I have a family member that continued to take advantage of me so many times, I had to show her the door. I did. And if she came to me at some point and said, “You know what? Daryl: I’m in big trouble. I need your help,” I’m sure I would help her. But there are times when y- the preservation for me of my peace and my serenity and my ability to live my life from that perspective is absolutely paramount to… A- and much more paramount in previous years, but it was the matter of, it was a matter of whether I stayed sober or whether I don’t stay [00:28:00] sober. Daryl: And so it’s, for me, that’s a matter of whether- … I continue on this planet or I don’t. so that’s how important it is to me. And I think it’s that way with a lot of people. Whatever the, the addiction or the or the issue is, it’s the matter of a- am I living this life in this way or in this way? Daryl: And so there are times when I’ve had to kick people out of my life and sometimes I’ll just say… And there are some things that you can just let fade away. Because if they stop calling, I stop calling, or I stop calling, they stop calling. And it’s just okay, it’s a natural- Yeah Daryl: Eh, we probably didn’t have that great of a time anyway. But in the case of family members, I believe it is absolutely crucial to allow them to know who I am, allow them to know what is important to me, allow them to know what is acceptable and not acceptable in my life. And I think that’s the most [00:29:00] loving thing I can do. Daryl: It doesn’t necessarily have to come with, it, it can be very matter-of-fact. It doesn’t have to be like, oh, it’s… I don’t need to apologize for it, I just need to have them understand where I’m coming from and why. And I think that’s the most loving thing I can do for both parties. Daryl: Because I’m allowing them to have their say in their life and how they go about that as regards me, and I’m telling them, what allows me to show the most love to myself as well. And sometimes just because they’re family, honestly… And I’m not saying boot your family out of your life by any stretch of the imagination. Daryl: Family is absolutely crucial to our lives. But you have to let people know where you’re at. And apologizing for it takes away some of the power that you’re… you can take away that power if you apologize for it. So anyway, I hope that helps, Gissele. Gissele: [00:30:00] it does, yeah. And and the other thing you were mentioning which I think is so fundamental is truth telling, right? Gissele: Like understanding that it’s your truth. It may not necessarily be their truth, but it’s your truth. And sometimes with family that can be really difficult. Like it can be really difficult to say this is my truth,” and then because some family members will invalidate because they can’t deal with it, right? Gissele: It’s hard For them to accept that, that your perspective of your relationship may not be what their perspective of your relationship is. And so the ability to be able to engage in dialogue in a way that is the most authentic regardless of whether they accept it or not, I think is really key. Gissele: Are there any things that helped you engage in that dialogue with a level of non-attachment? Daryl: It was time for me. It was time that a- as I grew, I was more able to do it with non-attachment. Because it’s difficult for me to be rejected. It’s difficult for me to [00:31:00] say things that, that people are like whoa .” Daryl: I want everybody to be happy. I want… A- and not quite so much as I used to be but that was very important to me, to not cause rifts, not cause problems, not, have issues between me and someone else. So I think a lot of it is time. And the most important person, and this is also practice, the most important person for me to tell the truth to is me. Daryl: And as I tell myself the truth and I adjust myself in life and I adjust my behaviors and my actions and I expand my belief system and all of those sorts of things, as I do that with me, it becomes much easier to do with others because I used to have this big hole in the middle of my chest and it was called unfulfilled. Daryl: And as I start to become fulfilled it’s really [00:32:00] apparent when somebody or something or whatever it is enters my life and puts that in some sort of jeopardy. It’s just a, it’s a resonating like, oh, man. A- and so I know what that is. And i- it gets more and more sensitive over the course of time, and I don’t mean sensitive oh, I can’t take it sensitive. Daryl: I just mean I can feel it from miles away if there’s something that’s not good for me. But also, if it’s not good for me and it’s between me and another person, it’s probably not good for them either. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, you’re talking about being in and out of alignment, right? Something that- … that is not resonating. Gissele: And I love what you’ve said because there’s been times in my life where I didn’t know I wasn’t being honest with myself. until of life circumstances would show me that I wasn’t, and sometimes that was difficult. It was difficult for me to understand that some of the stuff that I [00:33:00] wanted or thought I wanted that I found fulfilling was what other people thought I should have or I should want until there was, like, a stripping of I have to strip everything that I am to really remember who I really am . Gissele: Like little Gissele, like the things she loved, the things she wanted to be, the kind of person she was. And it was difficult for me to understand how far away I’d become from that original being. Daryl: Yeah. Definitely. I- it’s interesting because when I first started on this journey, I had no idea what honesty with me meant. Daryl: A- and it’s a continual process of discovery and that’s what I think what I love so much about life these days- … is because it’s a continual process of discovery. I am not shackled with, the religion I used to be, had to subscribe to or the beliefs of others which I’ve, been [00:34:00] asked to subscribe to over time. Daryl: And I’m not saying groups are great and groups are good, and you can… and get, a lot of help from people and that sort of thing, which I 100% agree with but as we go in our lives, I think that life is asking me to continue to expand. And the less definition I give to things, the more things can become expansive. Daryl: And I believe that’s- … absolutely true for me, and I’ve watched it happen in my life that the less definition I give… A- and I believe in God. I… I just call it God ’cause I don’t wanna call him Bob or Jane or whatever. I just say God ‘ cause it’s the easiest. But God becomes less defined for me over time and it becomes something that i- if I pull the definitions off… Daryl: And this is all part of being honest with myself because I know I’m being led down a path. Yeah. And so as definitions come off, [00:35:00] everything expands because it’s not in those walls that I’ve defined it as and- And so it’s a continual uncovering process, and that’s what I love so much about it because I don’t know what’s next for me to discover. Daryl: And that’s a really cool place to be. I’ll say one thing, Gissele, that I think is kinda humorous but kinda not. In my life long ago, I used to… difficult things would happen. I’d be like, “Oh, man, what’s gonna happen next?” And- Gissele: Yeah … Daryl: and I haven’t been that way in a long time but my life has turned into, “Oh, man, I can’t wait to see what happens next.” Daryl: And so if that’s the way life is presenting, I believe, then I also believe that we’re being honest with ourselves and letting it unfold in a way that is, is beautiful for us inside and out. Gissele: I appreciate you sharing that because as a person who used to be a very negative thinker, that was it. Gissele: I was basically programmed that you’re always waiting for the [00:36:00] other shoe to fall off, and it’s that negative downward spiral, right? And then you don’t trust life, and it’s really difficult to surrender, and you don’t even trust God, to be honest. Gissele: And so to then change that identity, to everything is working out for me, everything always supports me, the universe supports me, and, you mentioned God. I was talking to someone that calls it GUS, God Universe Source. There you go. It’s GUS. Daryl: That’s Gissele: cool. Yeah. And and so when you kinda shift that identity and that perspective, you can then open yourself up to all the beautiful things, and even the challenging the quote, unquote, “challenging things” can then be seen from the lens of what’s the gift in this moment? Gissele: What can I learn? Where can I grow? What if this was the greatest… And these are the questions I ask myself now. What if this is the greatest thing that’s ever happened to me? Gissele: And it’s weird how it works. Even seemingly things that I’m like, oh, it was annoying that I, that didn’t hap- okay, what if this was [00:37:00] the best thing that’s ever happened to me? Gissele: And things come up and show you… oh, yeah, It was a great thing that didn’t work out because then there’s this and this, right? And so yeah it’s kinda cool how that shift in perspective is so key. Gissele: I think that’s absolutely crucial. And in terms of allowing life to be what it is, because I can say it’s negative, but it really is a step, that I have to take that step to get to this step. And sometimes it doesn’t feel great, but it doesn’t mean it’s not right for me. Gissele: Yeah. Fair enough. Thank you very much. So two more questions I’m asking all of my guests what their definition of self-love is. Daryl: That is a great one, and that is one of I have put a lot of thought into, And a lot of resonance into for what resonates with me. And so self-love to me is not something that I have to continually convince [00:38:00] myself of. Daryl: For me, it’s how I treat myself and how I treat my life. And so I can’t, at least for an extended period of time, I can’t say it doesn’t happen every once in a while, but I can’t eat a pizza right before I go to bed for a year. I just can’t because I know I’ll wake up and I will not be happy, and I will not like myself, and I’ll feel like crap. Daryl: And I also can’t do that with negative thinking, and negative emotion, and throwing all that stuff out into the world and say, “Oh I love myself.” So self-love to me has to do with what I do in my life that has to do with all the things we’ve just discussed. Continuing to move, continuing to grow, continuing to pay attention to my body, my mind, my heart, and my soul in terms of being as healthy in those areas as I can. Daryl: And Then I don’t need to convince myself of my self-love. I’m giving it to myself, [00:39:00] and it’s just there. Gissele: I really like that. So last question. Where can people find you? Where can they work with you? Where can they find your books? Gissele: Thank you. The best place to find me is my website, which is daryldittmer.com, D-A-R-Y-L-D-I-T-T-M-E-R.com. That’s actually doing… They’re doing a little bit of a makeover on the site right now. I have no idea where it’s at I guess I’ll find out soon enough. But I’m starting to engage in mentoring and coaching and that sort of thing. Daryl: My books are both available on Amazon. So you could type in either When I Stopped Fighting or When You Stop Fighting or my name, Daryl Dittmer, and my books will come up. So those are the best places to find me and I say this in all sincerity if anybody’s listening and they have a question or want me to clarify something or whatever it is, you can feel free to email me, and that’s Daryl, D-A-R-Y-L, @daryldittmer.com. Gissele: Thank you, Daryl, for being [00:40:00] part of the show and for sharing your wisdom, and thank you to anyone who tuned in to another episode of the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. See you soon. Daryl: Thanks so much, Gissele. Bye.

TRANSCRIPT Angel: [00:00:00] Gissele: Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele . We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Gissele: Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. And if you’d like to support the podcast, you can go to buymeacoffee.com/loveandcompassion. Today we’re talking about forgiveness and the ancestors. And our guest today is Angel Morgan, who is a globally known media psychic, animal communicator who works with ceremony she has been on her path and walked the realms for almost 30 years and considers herself the voice of the ancestors. Gissele: Although Angel has her own private practice where she works with individuals and families, she loves being on stage and on the air where she knows she can reach so many to bring through messages of love and hope from their ancestors from across cultures worldwide . Please join me in welcoming Angel . Gissele: Hi. Angel: Hello. I’m so excited to be here. Gissele: I’m so excited to be chatting with you as well. Oh, I’m so excited. it’s 2026. It’s there’s some exciting [00:01:00] things happening. Angel: There Gissele: are, was wondering if you could start by telling the audience a little bit about how you got into this work. Angel: Sure. It was completely accidental. Of course there’s no such thing, but I I was a nonbeliever and I was the kind of person that really felt there had to be a limit to everything. And I happened on this wonderful little store in New Market Ontario, where I decided I was going to get my very first reading. Angel: And at that point I was actually in theater and I, was in the last cuts of shop festival, Stratford. This was my thing. And she said, but you’re gonna be doing this with your life. And I thought there was a waste of money. And within six weeks of that, I had started having experiences and that led me right back to that store where I ended up getting a job and being there for nine and a half years. Angel: And in that time too, I actually ended up in Guatemala. And in Guatemala they told me that I was going to [00:02:00] be speaking with animals. And again, it was like, oh, you people are on crack. This is not happening. And I came back to Canada where I’m from and I ended up at this healing center where everybody was signing these binders. Angel: And I thought, ah, you know what? I’ll sign a binder. And I didn’t know what I was signing. And the week later I got an email and the email said, don’t forget, you have an animal communications course coming up. And I’m like. I’m sorry, what? And my friend said, are you going? And I said, absolutely not. And she goes, yes, you are. Angel: And she dragged me. So I actually went to disprove it, to debunk it. And by the end of the by the end of the session, I was more than convinced. And within, again, six to eight weeks of that, I was working professionally as an animal communicator at that little store. And it was just a phenomenal experience. Angel: And it has been for the last 30 years, and I’ve been working with humans as well as animals. And it’s been an exciting adventure, especially in [00:03:00] closure, and helping people, because my work very specifically, not that I’m solely a medium, I’m a realm walker, so I can do many things in the psychic realms. Angel: But I love working with animals and humans to find closure with those who’ve crossed over because we don’t sometimes get that opportunity, right? Sometimes somebody will cross over and we haven’t had that opportunity to say the things we need to say or something may, tragic or traumatic will have happened and now we have to carry, or we think, we feel we have to carry those things when that’s just not the case. Angel: And I get that blessed honored opportunity to be that gateway or that bridge between the worlds. so that’s a little bit about me and what I do. Gissele: I was wondering so what helped you actually understand the death isn’t final? Did you have an experience Just because I think. From my perspective, I’ve had spiritual experiences that have demonstrated to me that death isn’t final. Even though there’s always like that element of me, there’s always the doubt, like your mind likes to go there. Gissele: [00:04:00] Yeah. But to me death is like the final frontier that humanity has to face. ’cause I think we do so many things that of a fear of death. Gissele: I was wondering what helped you overcome that fear? Angel: It’s interesting because I’ve never feared death, but I’ve always wondered what it be like if I faced death. Angel: That was always a question in my head. I’ve had experience with death herself, and I remember the first time I was lying in bed and I was falling asleep. It was just a nap that I was taking. And I saw this girl on a cobblestone. Fence. And she had these beautiful pumpkin colored pants with a skull face. Angel: And she said, you know me? And I said, I do. And she says, yes, you do. And right away I recognized and she said, there are three people in the coming year who will pass. And she told me who they were consecutively, and and they did, and they passed. But what I noted in that experience which was brief, [00:05:00] but what I did note was that it was warm and it was welcoming and it was almost like cicadas on a warm day. Angel: And I think that actually echoed something that I didn’t understand at the time when I was little, the very first experience I ever had, I saw my great auntie in a vision. I was in that in-between place. And she was standing by this tree, which I now know to be the tree of life. And she was in a death gown and it was like black with very high Victorian neck. Angel: And I knew she had passed. And I woke up and my mother was coming up the stairs. This woman had raised her and she said your auntie, auntie Mary has passed. And I said, yeah, I know. And she goes how do you know? And I said I just saw her, right? And she goes, no, you didn’t see anything. You didn’t, you don’t know anything. Angel: And she turned around and she walked away, which left my little brain very confused. But it was, again, I think that was my first encounter with death. And then the second was the the cobblestone fence. And then my final one, which really helped me [00:06:00] understand death fully, was my encounter with death myself. Angel: I was in a very bad place in my life and I decided that I was gonna play a very dangerous game. And that game was, if we can manifest, can we manifest conscious death? And so for a year, I put energy into that, right? And I do believe that if we put enough energy into something, we will call that energy to us. Angel: And so I ended up in emergency and in the emergency. They told me that I had a 50 50 chance of living. And I remember hearing that same voice of that girl going, do you wanna live or do you want to die? And I thought of my son and I thought, no, I wanna live game over. And so that was a really massive experience for me that some of us actually have that ability to take things that far. Angel: We all do. But it’s to what extent. So when I met death on that front, that was, that answered [00:07:00] that question of how would I face death? Because again, it’s not just about how death feels, right? It’s not facing, like looking at that and going, oh my God, death is scary. Death is scary. It’s not about death, it’s about you too. Angel: Because I understood in that moment that. I faced death with grace and quiet and confidence, and I was okay, and I knew I was gonna be okay. And that’s the biggest thing I think we need to understand about death, is that it is part of a cycle and that we are always going to be okay. Death is an angel, right? Angel: Death is an angel just like Michael, just like Gabrielle, just like Uriel. And so when death comes, there is a sweetness as well as a sadness. There’s this great Facebook post that I absolutely love. And you see this grandmother in bed and her spirit is up in her body, and you see the family, and the family is crying and it’s sad. Angel: And that in this picture. But then [00:08:00] on the other side above them is the family waiting. And they’re joyful. And they’re happy. So it’s a bittersweet thing. And that’s not, it’s not a job I would want, death has a very big responsibility and I honor that every day. Angel: Even if you look at some of the items I have behind me, oh, she’s actually not, yeah, there she is. I have Santa Muerte. Santa Muerte. She is the goddess of death and abundance, right back here. I also have Kali, she’s the destroyer and she’s also the rebirth because there is a cycle to everything and all of it is beautiful. Angel: And once we accept it, once we embrace that, and that’s what the believers of Santa Muerte live. Once we accept that death is part of the cycle, it’s that freedom to live. Yeah. Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head, which is then you become free to live . Gissele: Instead of trying to avoid death, instead of trying to wait out or control. Angel: Yes. Gissele: I was wondering if you could share was it ever difficult for you to see the death of other [00:09:00] people, crossing over, especially of people that were close to you? Angel: No. In fact my father passed away in 2025 and, before he died, six months before he died, I was shown that he was going to pass. Angel: And I wasn’t sad. The first I remember what went through my head is, okay, what can I do in this six months to make that a full experience? And so as time went on, I. Gave myself the opportunities to find the closure that I needed with him. It was really cool. The last time I saw him was actually in a restaurant. Angel: I had stolen him. He went to the hospital and he hated hospitals. And in between one test and another, there was two hours. He didn’t realize that. And he was so upset and I said let’s go on an adventure. And he said what do you wanna do? And I said, I don’t know. What do you wanna do? Angel: He said, I haven’t had fish and chip in a long time. I said okay. So I [00:10:00] stole him and we went to this restaurant and we sat down and we talked about all the people he knew in his past. And it was almost like absolution. And that’s something that I’ve noticed. I’ve really I’ve really encountered with my work because I’m a transition worker. Angel: Usually a few days or a few weeks before somebody passes they seem to want to. Absolve themselves of a lot of things and they want to confide and just get everything off their chest, and I seem to just be in the right place at the right time. And so we talked and we talked and I heard stories I’d never heard before. Angel: So when my son came to tell me that my dad had passed, he took my hands and he goes, listen. He goes, none knew passed. And I said, I know. And he goes you’re taking this a lot better. I thought you would. And I looked at him and I said that’s because I’ve already had my closure. I knew, so when it comes to death and seeing loved ones who’ve passed or anybody who passes, I understand that there is a joy in it. Angel: they have something to look forward to. And I’ve had [00:11:00] clients. Who have begged me. You can talk to death, you can talk to the other side. Tell them not to come for me, I’ve actually had people say that to me. Go and tell my dad not to come for me. Go and tell I, I still have so much to live for. Angel: And I’m like, I know. I said, but this is part of your contract. And if it’s so understand, and I’ve said this to people, understand it’s a really beautiful place, and that’s not a cliche, right? So I’ve been on both ends of it where I’ve seen somebody pass and I’ve had people who have not wanted to go, who don’t understand what death really is. Angel: However, that one person I was just talking about, the one who’s begging to not die after she passed, she came to me in a dream and she went, she goes, you were right. She goes, I’m sitting here. And right behind her could see her dad. And her dad was playing cards and she goes, I’m having a great time. Angel: She goes, this is a lot. Charlie Chaplin said it. He goes, death is easy. Comedy is hard. Life is [00:12:00] challenging for us, right? Because we have all of this baggage, all of these conditioned beliefs, whereas death is sweet and easy and transformational. We see those people who fight death even in their last moments. Angel: And what we’re coming to understand is when we accept it, when we embrace it, then we’re able to move over. And that’s the other blessing I have. And this is my, honestly, this is my favorite part of my work and death work and grief work. My favorite part is when somebody’s crossing over, including animals, by the way. Angel: You’ll see their ancestors coming closer. And closer. So when you hear about people saying I’m talking to my dad or I see my mom, or I see, that’s when you know that time is close, because that’s literally what the ancestors, they wait and they do, they get closer and closer. Angel: And so when I have people call me, especially with their animals, because we do a lot of decision making, I do a lot of decision making with families. That’s the first thing I’ll look at is how close [00:13:00] are the ancestors? How close are, the bridge workers are gonna take the animals over the Rainbow bridge. Angel: And that’s really helpful too. So that’s the other thing is I don’t work in isolation. I work with my spirit team. I work with those ancestors on the other side. And you’d be surprised who show up. Sometimes it’s actually those people who cause tragedy or trauma. Those people who are considered the bad people of the family they’re the ones who will come because they’re the ones who have seen the light. Angel: They’re the ones who have been healed. And it’s just, it’s an incredible experience and no two experiences are ever alike. They’re just all really amazing. And I have to tell you, it, it is very cinematic sometimes. So it can be really cool. It can be really cool. Gissele: Wow. It’s really interesting. Gissele: As you were speaking, I was thinking about, my mother-in-law and I’ve been thinking about the people that I know As you get closer to coming to the transition, you spend more time between worlds. Yes. It’s like [00:14:00] babies. You know how they sleep and are in between worlds in the beginning. Gissele: That’s right. You see that at the end. Angel: Yes. Gissele: Of them spending like. Spending more time sleeping, spending more time, like seeing things that aren’t there. Like it’s an interesting, it’s, it’s so beautiful Angel: and perfect. It’s so you are absolutely correct with a child, with a baby up to six months, to eight months. Angel: They do have one foot here and one foot there. When we are crossing, when we get older and seniors it’s about 82, 83 years old. And for some it’s older. I’m not gonna, that’s not hard and stone, but between 82 and 83 years old, this is when we start to reconnect to the other side. This is when we start to really become that. Angel: And I did, I noticed that with my parents as well as, around that age without even speaking to them. They’re, they were already here, take this or here take that. Or they’re already getting ready for it on a physical plane. My parents were, but the reality is you are absolutely correct in that, yeah. Angel: I [00:15:00] also noticed it in my dog too. I had a dog that passed away November Oh, Gissele: just past Angel: November. Gissele: Not this November, but the previous one. Angel: Oh, I’m so sorry. Gissele: Yeah. I just love that dog. He was my third child. Gissele: He was, Angel: it’s so fun. I’m actually in the process of adopting a pet right now, and I always said I would never have a ball python, because they get really big. And I just walked in the store a few days ago and I saw this little guy and I just, and all, I literally physically heard mommy, and I went, oh, I’m done. Angel: I understand that. Gissele: Yeah. I learned so much from that experience, which I never thought I would. But I could tell at the end when he was ready to transition out because he used to get seizures and he didn’t wanna take his pills anymore. Angel: Yeah. Gissele: And then when he didn’t wanna take his pills anymore, I knew, I didn’t wanna face it. My daughter knew. She’s very psychic as well, and she decided to take a picture a few days before he died. Angel: Yeah. Gissele: you get so attached death is hard for the people that remain Angel: Yes. Gissele: Hard for the people that miss I miss him. I miss having his energy [00:16:00] physical. I miss Angel: Yeah. And it’s our brains. It’s our brains that miss. Angel: That person because our brains need the physical, tangible. Our brains are wired that way. Our spirits, our hearts know that they’re always around us, but our brain needs that. I need to see you every day. I need to touch you every day. I need to feel that presence every day, which is one of the reasons I always recommend taking something, especially with humans taking a piece of their clothing and making like a pillow out of it or making, so when you really do wanna be with them to be able to hold them, you have that physical, tangible. Angel: I love that. That’s one of my favorite things to, to offer people. And of course there are things that you can do for your animals as well. So the grief process. It is an amazing thing. And I think they say that it takes about three years to really grieve. And I think that’s the conditioned time that the brain needs to rewire. Angel: And I think that’s really what it’s like. In South America and I work with [00:17:00] medicine people from South America and the South Americans believe, life is as easy or complex as we make it. If we allow ourselves to embrace death, then that process of grief can actually shorten, right? Angel: It’s like with animals. Animals grieve. We see elephants grieve the loss ofa group member. But when they grieve and the process is done, they move on. And that doesn’t mean that they don’t feel the loss later. They do, but it’s such a different extent than we are. They’re so present in their. Angel: Existence. And I think that’s another thing we need to understand about death and grief is that it’s a very present moment thing. And as humans in our lives, we’re always thinking about the future or dwelling on the past, whereas death is very present experience. So when we’re crossing over, we’re not thinking about the passing, where we’re not thinking about the future anymore. Angel: we’re in that moment. And that’s, I think what creates the piece around it in that last, those last seconds. Gissele: Yeah, we’re often [00:18:00] not present, but you’re right, that stuff that forces you to be more present and also to value life more. Gissele: I think if we’ve lived indefinitely, I think that would be really difficult. Angel: that’s a whole other discussion. It immortality is a whole other discussion. In that though, there’s also a solace in knowing that we truly are immortal beings because our spirit is just transitioning and shifting and reshaping. Angel: We’re not actually losing anything. We’re not like, a and again, it’s a belief system because there are those who believe that when we pass, that’s it. There’s nothing, there’s a blackness. For me, my belief system is that we and again, there are four stages, not three stages of life for me. Angel: When we cross over, we go into that wholeness, and then when we’re complete in that wholeness, we come back or we go to wherever, our soul chooses. But for me, there are four levels of death. We usually believe there’s life, there’s death, and then there’s rebirth. If you believe in reincarnation, [00:19:00] but we’re missing a. Angel: And it’s a really important step. And that’s life, death, decay, and then rebirth because that decay part is that part that allows us to resolve and release all the stuff from that last life so that we’re clean slate, our bones are clean again. So that when we do rebirth, that’s one of the reasons I truly believe that we don’t remember our past lives. Angel: That we don’t remember these things to their fullest because we do to some degree, right? It may not be conscious. We do. And it is in us, it’s in our DNA. It does affect our present lives, but we don’t consciously remember it fully. And one of the reasons for that, I truly believe, is because that process of decay between death and life is there to clean that away so that we can start fresh. Angel: And I’ve had that question many times. Why don’t we remember our past lives? For me, that’s why, because that’s step is incredibly important. Gissele: It’s interesting. I had that thought. You’re answering my question that I had enough thought. ’cause we were [00:20:00] talking, I was thinking about that. I was thinking about the fact that it’s oh, whenever I tried to do past life regress, I’ve had a few which I have seen really interesting. Gissele: not anything that would’ve come from my mind because if I was to create that story, I wouldn’t have created those stories. Angel: Right. Gissele: To me, I’m like, that doesn’t make sense. That’s how you know it. It must have been something because there’s no way I would’ve picked. Any of those stories. Gissele: That’s not even what I had come for. Angel: I literally just posted on my Instagram this moment I had with a client. And it was so cool because both of us looked at each other. It’s I couldn’t make this up if I tried. And her father who crossed over came and he was talking about how she needed to be more empowered and freedom. Angel: And she, she showed me her as a skier coming down a ski hill. And for me that is a symbol of power, strength, and with the elements and all that kind of stuff. And this is the very specific thing that he showed. And all of a sudden she laughs and she said, the sweetest, most beautiful laugh, very elegant woman. Angel: And she looks at me, she goes, it’s so funny. She goes I don’t remember where she was from, but she had gone, she moved from there Oh. At [00:21:00] South Africa. And she moved to Luxembourg to become a ski instructor. And I thought, wow. And you, and I said it. I said it. And she says you couldn’t, I couldn’t make this up if I tried. Angel: Like I couldn’t. What are the odds that her father, who she wanted to connect to, would say something so specific that would tie into something she needed to know? Yeah. The dead have all the answers. They have all the answers. We do too, because our spirits have all those answers. Angel: But the conscious mind is the thing that kind of creates that wall for us, that veil. Gissele: So how can we actually decrease that disconnectionBecause I think sometimes I find that. When I have Questions and I look for answers. Gissele: It’s like cricket. Angel: Oh, Gissele: okay. Got it. because obviously it’s us preventing ourselves from hearing and listening and being able to get those answers. So what are things that we can do to actually be more open to the answers instead of just keep asking the same thing over? Angel: And you know what, that’s a great question. And a lot of people ask me all the time, because one of my specialties is to teach psychic development. And the thing [00:22:00] is they go, how do I develop your psychic abilities? You don’t. You don’t develop your psychic abilities. They’re there and they’re full. Angel: They’re whole, they’re enriched. The only thing we’re trying to develop is our confidence in our psychic abilities. And what’s really interesting is every day we’re having them. So if you really want to connect to your guides, to your guardians, if you really want those answers and not hear crickets, which you’re not, by the way, even nothing is an answer sometimes. Angel: Oh, Gissele: okay. That’s good. Yeah. Angel: Yeah. Sometimes it is. The reality is that the three main things is listen right to those nigg links to those things dismiss nothing, right? Don’t dismiss the things you feel. What you feel becomes real. What you feel is real. Thoughts may be things, but what you feel is real. Angel: Listen, dismiss nothing. And the most important one, this is the one that creates the barrier or the wall, is act on it. Act on it. As long as you’re not hurting yourself or anybody else. If one day you’re driving to [00:23:00] work and you feel like, ah, you know what, today I need to take the long route, but oh, I’m so afraid of gonna, I’m gonna be late. Angel: Take the long route. I’ll bet you nine, nine times outta 10, you’re still gonna be on time. And I’ve done it. I’ve done it. Trust what you get and act on it. Have fun. Play, create a game for yourself where if you feel it, be it. Follow that feel. And I, this is one of the things I teach is follow your feel. If you do this, you’re gonna start getting confidence. Angel: You’re going, oh wow, I can’t believe that happened. And as you gain that confidence and you’re gonna go, ah, okay, you know what? I have this question. And when you ask that question, all of a sudden, it may not be in the moment, but you will start to see things. And you can ask things like that. You can say, listen, you know what I’ve just had this experience. Angel: Show me that it was real. Validate that. Alright. Or you can ask a question like me. For instance, here’s a really great exercise for everyone to do. In the morning before you open your eyes, your subconscious is wide open, [00:24:00] so you’re in that in-between place, okay? So your subconscious is wide open. Angel: Before you open your eyes, ask your question, and then do nothing. And more importantly, expect nothing because that’s the thing that’s gonna put a full stop on everything. If you expect to see something, you expect to hear something. Now that expectation has said to the angels and guides and guardians, this is what the way I want it. Angel: And they’re gonna go, okay, but that’s not the way we need to give it to you right now. So what we do is we have our eyes closed before we wake up and we go, okay, you know what? Show me my day today. And then all of a sudden we might get a split second of an image, right? We might get a thought, we might get a feeling. Angel: That’s the answer. And that’s the other thing too, is we’re always getting the answers. Remember how you say you hear crickets? How do you know those crickets weren’t your answer? You’re expecting to get it. Gissele: I actually don’t hear crickets. I just hear nothing. Angel: so you said that sometimes nothing is an answer. How? Angel: so from nothing comes everything. So my thing is this, if I’m lying down, my [00:25:00] eyes are closed, I’ve asked my questions and I’m getting nothing. Sometimes that answer is be open. Just be open to or like that. Angel: You know what? At this moment you’re not ready to hear the answer. You’re not ready for that. So I trust that if I’m not getting something that’s either me being protected, me not being ready, or, Hey, you know what, today is a follow your field day. We got something for you. A lot of times if I get nothing, oh my God, by the end of the day it’s miraculous. Angel: It’s surprise is galore. So I actually look forward to the nothing answers. I call them the nothing answers, right? I like those moments. But that’s the problem is because we’re getting nothing. We’re titian believe we’re doing something wrong, right? Or we’re not being answered. Your guides and guardians are always with you, and creating relationships with them is also really important. Angel: One of the things that I like to do, and I used to do this a lot when I started, was before I’d open my eyes in the morning, I would ask one of my guides. I would literally say I ask and give permission to all those of the light. I would like one of my guides to step forward. [00:26:00] And then it could, might be, a feeling and I might see them, or I might hear a voice and I go, okay, who are you? Angel: The five, five questions? Who, what, when, where, why? Who are you? What are you here for? How can we work together? Where do we go from here? And why? Why is it that we’re going to work together? So those are very important. But the reality is I would work with them for a week or two weeks to really get to know those guides and guardians, to see how they’ll work with me to feel their energy. Angel: So in my waking day when I feel that I know it’s them, right? So they’re also really important to answering your questions because once you create a relationship, like I talk to my guides, the way I talk to you, I’m like, okay guys, I need to know what the hell is going on here. Especially on a paranormal investigation, if I’m on an investigation I’ll be in a haunted house and I’ll be like, okay guys, I need you guys to make sure you have my back or what’s going on in this room. Angel: Because if I feel something in a room and I can’t see it or feel it, now I feel blind, and that scares me. Okay, so then I depend on my team and my team are the spirit [00:27:00] guides. And I’ll be like, okay, what’s going on here? And then they’ll show me, I’ll see a little boy, or they’ll show me a story or whatever. Angel: But that’s because I’ve created a relationship with them. They know how to speak to me. I know how to listen and I know how to speak to them. And I’ve been doing this for almost 30 years. So a lot of it too, practice. You don’t go to the gym and build a muscle in a day. Gissele: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Gissele: I think part of the reason why I was judging the communication that I received or didn’t receive is because there were other times in my life when I had very clear guidance and I heard it. Angel: Yeah, Gissele: don’t do that. Don’t go there. This is not gonna happen. And so that’s the communication I’ve always expected. Angel: Okay. Gissele: because sometimes those came when I didn’t expect it. I was like doing something and they’re like, don’t do that or go over here. Or Get out of here and in, and, I was necessarily in danger. They were just telling me like, Hey, this is what’s happening. Gissele: There were other times when I was like very clearly desperate for the answer and it’s nothing. And I’m like, Angel: so I love that [00:28:00] question. I love that you said that because I have a lot of people say that too. Because a lot of times what will happen is because we’re not practice, just because we’re not practice, that’s it. Angel: What will happen is I always say, if God wants to talk to you, he’s gonna find a way. So my reality is something important, they’re gonna find a way. Yeah. Even if you are the most, most hardheaded person who truly is a non believer and it’s like a black and white person, if God needs to speak to you, they will. Angel: So I love the story that I heard a very long time ago. There was a man and he was a very simple man. He was an accountant, that’s all he was. And, I can’t remember. He saw a child who got hit by a car and he got out of his car. He stopped the car, got out of the car, he went over and he just knew what to do. Angel: Like he knew what to do to help this child. And I think the child wasn’t breathing. I think it was something with the throat, I can’t remember what it was. And he took a jackknife and he did whatever he had. And afterwards they asked him, they said, are you a doctor? Are you this? Are you that? He goes, [00:29:00] no. Angel: And he goes how did you know to do that? And he goes, I didn’t. And so when Spirit needs to get through to you, they will. And I’ve had those instances. I was on a subway once, this was when I was really young, way before any of this, and this man was having a seizure and he fell on the floor and his eyes started to bulge and everything. Angel: And I literally heard go and put your fingers behind his head. I heard fingers behind head and nobody moved, but I did. And I was like, I look back now, that’s a really dangerous situation because I didn’t know what I was doing. And I went over and I put my finger and I just lifted his head a bit, which cleared his airway, and he started to breathe again. Angel: And as soon as the subway stopped, someone had the sense to pull it. And as soon as the subway stopped, I just, I left. I didn’t even want to deal with that. And I’ve had that instance actually a couple of times, but that was the most profound one. So when Spirit needs to speak to you, they’re going to find a way. Angel: So you may be desperate. Tell me. Gissele: Yeah, Angel: yeah. Angel: And we do that especially with our children, right? I know for myself I am a helicopter [00:30:00] mom, and and I can admit that now and my son is 22 years old, but there are times I’m like, okay, where is he? What’s he doing? Guys tell me, show me and I’ll get nothing. Angel: And I’ll be like, fine, not my business, whatever. But then I’ll have times I can see clearly, and I kid you not, this has happened. I can see clearly. And 15 minutes later I’ll get a call and go, don’t do that again. Do not do that again. And I’m like, sorry. And that’s another thing we need to understand too, is we are all connected. Angel: So you asked that question earlier about, what it feels like to see people before they pass and know that they’re going to pass. We all can. We all can’t because we’re all connected, but it’s about vibrational matches. If I’m on your vibration, there’s a more likely chance that I’ll see when you’re not feeling well or if you’re gonna pass or that kind of thing. Angel: And another psychic won’t. Just because I can doesn’t make them lesser. It just, it means I’m more on your vibe. That’s all. That’s it. I’m an animal communicator, so if an animal is gonna cross, guess [00:31:00] what? I’m probably the one who’s gonna know. Gissele: I’m just curious ’cause this popped into my head to ask so during a meditation, once I saw something called a longma, do you know what that is? Gissele: it’s a dragon with wings. Angel: Ooh, okay. Gissele: And have you ever heard of Angel: that? Dragons? No, I haven’t heard them that way, but I do work with dragon medicine, so I do understand the dragon tribes in the dragon world. So yeah. Please tell me about those. Gissele: It was just that. So I was meditating and it just came forward and that was it. Gissele: I don’t remember anything else other than that. And you heard this Angel: word, Gissele: I’m sorry? Angel: You heard this word, longma? Gissele: No I looked it up. Angel: What is it? Gissele: I didn’t know what it was. I just saw, so I was meditating and then I saw a dragon with wings come forward, and that’s all. I just saw it in my meditation and then I was like, oh, cool. Gissele: Don’t know what that means. And so later on I was googling and then I was like, oh, it’s something called, I think [00:32:00] a long ma. So it’s a horse. Oh no, sorry. I’m mistaken. it was a horse dragon. Angel: Horse Dragon, Gissele: something like that. Gissele: And I think it’s like Asian. So I bought some and I was like, oh, okay, maybe. Gissele: So I was just curious if you had ever had that with the dragon? Angel: Different cultures have different names for different creatures. So if I saw it, I might call it something else. But I’m Gissele: pretty sure it was a horse dragon. Angel: But again, see, so the South Americans have taught me the only limitations we have are the ones we place on ourselves. So you may have seen a creature that I don’t know about yet. But now I do. And of course my brain being my brain, I’m gonna go look it up later. Oh Gissele: Yeah. Angel: But dragon medicine is powerful medicine. So if that tribe of dragons is working with you, that’s because you’re on that vibration of dragon. I never believed in dragons until mine came to me. And again, I was much, much younger. I was not on this path at all. I was a little girl and I saw this big white and gold dragon, and it took my [00:33:00] breath away in a vision. Angel: And he even gave me his name and I’d always been working with him. And then one day, as I was on this path, as is my way I met this medicine woman and she goes. Oh, she goes, I need to talk to you. And I said, what? And she goes, the dragon. And I said, what about him? And she goes, the white and gold one. And I went, excuse me. Angel: And then she even said his name. And I’m like, are you joking me right now? She goes, yeah, he needs you to know that he’s real and not a figment of your imagination. And I’m like, so even as a practitioner of this work and these arts, because it is an art, there are things I still doubt, there are things where the validation is wow, that’s awesome. Angel: John Edwards said something once. It was very interesting. He said he had an experience where he was like, oh my God. He called his wife and he goes, oh my God. It was so shocking and surprising and she turns, she goes, why is it shocking and surprising? She goes, you’re a psychic. This is what you do for a living. Gissele: Yeah, Angel: me. It was like, no, you know what? I [00:34:00] like to be shocked and surprised. I love it when I have those, oh my God, that was so cool moments because it, it keeps that childlike wonder alive and what better to keep that alive than dragons? Gissele: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. And it’s so interesting, there’s this video circulating now about there being an actual, like in the physical world, dragon. Gissele: Yes. That’s white. Yeah. Yeah. Angel: Yes. In right now we’re in the time from what I’ve understood, we’re in the time of the dragon. This is when the dragons are reappearing to us, whether it’s physical or not, they’re reappearing in droves. In fact, it’s interesting ’cause I have a lot of clients now going, I just dreamt of a dragon, or I had a dragon come to me. Angel: And I’m like, and these are not people on the path. These are just people you know, in, in everyday life. And it’s just, it’s incredible how I’m hearing more and more of that. So I am inclined to believe that power is now something that we are we are more willing to embrace and we’re ready for so much. Angel: We are ready for so much now. 2026 [00:35:00] year of the horse. Horse dragon year of the horse is going to be phenomenal. And it is a fire horse that’s coming in. And this particular energy is really gonna propel us forward. Anything that we’ve seeded now is going to be expanded in massive ways. Angel: I’ve been dying for this year to kick in. Gissele: Oh yeah. I’m so excited. Yeah. I’m because it made me think of the long bite. It made me think of the fire horse. Yeah. Like the dragon horse that I had seen way back. Yeah. And I was trying to find something about it. It, it’s supposed to be auspicious and like you said, moving forward. Gissele: And so that’s why I was like, oh, interesting. Angel: Then what you can do is you can, again, before you open your eyes in the morning. Okay, call for that dragon to come to you. Have the conversation with the dragon, right? Get the answers from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. And it’s and again, my ask and give permission is really important. Angel: Guides, guardians, angels, archangels can only intercede in your life so far. If you give them permission, you’re opening the [00:36:00] floodgate. So if you really want a beautifully clear channel, there are a few things that you can do. Again, that exercise of before you open your eyes in the morning, that’s a great time to work for night owls as you’re falling asleep going into that beta state. Angel: And again, I ask and give permission to all those of the light, and then ask your question right now, if you’re a very physically inclined person. Now, let’s say, we wanted to talk about forgiveness. Okay, let’s say you want to talk to an ancestor that you’ve not had closure with. Or someone who maybe you’ve had a tragedy or a trauma with. Angel: When you are ready and inclined to do take a little white candle. This is one of my favorite things to do. Write or etch into it with your finger or with just a pen or something. Just etch into it. Ancestors. Okay. You can be specific too, if there’s someone specific you wanna talk to, like a grandmother graph or whatever. Angel: But I like to just put ancestors because I use it for so many different things. And then what you do is you envision your angels, guides, guardians, [00:37:00] whatever. Call in your posse. I ask all of those of the light. I ask and give permission, right? To work with the ancestors today. And then light the candle, close your eyes, sit okay. Angel: And make the space a beautiful space to work in. Because if you’re gonna have your grandma over, you’re damn, you’re going to be like cleaning that house. Your grandma’s coming over, your mom’s coming over, you’re gonna make it nice. So that’s what we wanna do. We wanna make this space auspicious. Angel: We wanna make this space welcoming. So you light your candle and then you close your eyes and you have that imaginary conversation knowing it’s not imaginary, right? You allow them to come to you in any way they want to and give them space to speak. Ask your questions, have your time with them, and feel the emotions. Angel: Listen, dismiss nothing and act on it. And the action here is the conversation, right? And in that the healing is so profound. I knew a girl once long time ago. She. Was in a rape situation. And when she [00:38:00] was older, she wanted to find this person and actually have a conversation with them because it led her to become a counselor. Angel: It actually led her to a very positive thing in her life. So she wanted to find this person. This is someone who’s known to her. She found out that he had passed away two years before, and it was devastating to her because now she felt she, she couldn’t have this conversation. And I said, yeah, you can. And so we did this together and we did the ancestor candle in this particular case because it was, something was very touchy. Angel: It was very emotional. Like I said, you have to be ready for it. We lit this candle and we sat with the candle and with her and was really interesting because when he came, there was this gasp, right? It was like she was really not expecting it, and she had the conversation with him and There were tears. Angel: But what’s interesting is there was laughter and there was understanding and there was remorse on his side. He understood things. They understood there was a past life they had together. There, there was all these different things. There was a [00:39:00] vengeance contract. There was this, there was that, and by the time it had ended, you could see her face had changed, her demeanor had changed. Angel: I’ve never seen a change like that. And so we tapped out the candle. So when you’re done this, when you’re finished, you always say, I release you. Thank you. And I release you. It’s like hanging up the phone. You tap out the candle, don’t blow out the candle, you tap out the candle, take a breath and release. Angel: Once you’ve done that, you know the conversation and most times the contract is complete. I noticed something profound with her too, because she had that closure. Within days of that she’d gotten a promotion. Her life started to open up. Everything became lighter in her life. Why? Because that weight was off her shoulders because she had cleared something. Angel: When you clear something, you open other doors for yourself. This is why healing is really important, especially with ancestors. Okay. What I thought was really cool about that [00:40:00] conversation too was that it was very flowing. It wasn’t forced in any way. We had made the commitment before we even started that if he shows up, that’s great, and if he doesn’t, that’s fine too. Angel: And we need to understand that most times. And that’s one of the reasons she chose to ’cause she was a little hesitant when people cross. They do go through a healing, okay. They go through an understanding that they didn’t have on this side. And so a lot of times when you get trauma, when you get tragedy, and you face those people in spirit, whether they’re living or dead, because you can do that same thing with people who are or are alive. Angel: You don’t have to face them physically. You can do that through a candle. Oh yeah, definitely. There’s a great book called Eat, pray, love, and she goes in the book to the ashram and she goes to the roof of the ashram and she calls in her husband, and she has that same conversation with him. And when she goes home, it’s a completely different relationship because their souls have connected. And [00:41:00] that’s the point we’re trying now to get away from the conditioned conscious mind. We’re trying to get rid of the baggage and go to the core. There’s another one that you can do too, where you can write a letter and this is a very profound exercise too, because I got this in South America. Angel: I was sitting by a fire, and three spirits came to me, three women, and they said, this is what you need to do in three parts. And the first showed me that you have to write the letter. This is a very North American thing, right? Psychologists, they write a letter, right? So you pour everything into it, but it’s stream of conscious writing. Angel: So it’s not like you’re going, dear person. It’s, this is how I feel about you and I love you and hate and blahda da and alligators, and da. And you just throw it all in there. The second one stepped forward. I kid you not, this actually happened. The second one stepped forward and she was Hawaiian. Angel: And she said to me, write this. And it was the ho pono. I’d never heard of it. I couldn’t quite understand the word. Then I went and researched it later, right? And I found out this was a real thing, right from the Huna. And in this, what you do is you [00:42:00] write everything and then the wholeo three times you write it okay with this person’s name, and then you sign it as your commitment to the release. Angel: ’cause this is a release ceremony. And the third part is South American. The third one stepped forward and she said, throw it in the fire. And I throw it in the fire. And she goes, yeah, he’s gonna get it. And I said, okay. So I threw it in the fire because now that tangible object isn’t something gonna give the person, you’re gonna throw it in the fire so that they get the, they get that letter in spirit and their spirit reads that and says, ah, okay, now it’s time to go. Angel: And then you take those ashes, you take them once they’ve cooled off your property and you throw them to the wind so that they get the letter. Okay? So that’s something I’ve given people for years and years, and it’s worked every time I’ve used it. And you can use it with, anyway, you can even use that with people you have great relationships with, because there’s always something to clear. Angel: There’s always something to release. There’s always something to put yourself [00:43:00] into balance with. But when it comes to forgiveness, when it comes to rebalancing, especially relationships that need, that people who have had divorce, right? People who are angry with each other, parents and children, whatever the case, this can be used for anything. Angel: That idea of forgiveness, the person doesn’t have to cross. We are all connected. So if you can’t face that person on a physical level, maybe they’re not willing. That person’s not willing. Even if you are, this is a good way to do it. The candle, the ancestor candle, or the letter. Gissele: Because I was gonna ask, how do you do the letter thing during the winter, right? Gissele: There’s so much snow outside, I can’t make a fire. Oh, Angel: so yeah. Yeah, you can’t, so what you do is you that’s a great question, by the way. Before I had my cauldrons I actually used to line my sink with tin foot. You line your sink with tinfoil and you just burn the letter, right? Because the letter could be a page or two pages or 10 pages and you just rip them up, open your kitchen window and you burn it like that and you let it cool down. Angel: And once [00:44:00] it’s cooled down, you take that outside, you throw it off your driveway or off your balcony or whatever, and then you take the silver and you throw that up. Gissele: Okay? Okay. Angel: Good question. That’s a good one. Yeah, you don’t wanna miss that one. So yeah, so if you can do it in the summer, that’s fantastic. Angel: If you can’t do it in the summer then you can definitely use you can definitely use your sink and silver and tinfoil. Gissele: And why do you do the candle? Angel: Just a small candle. So you can use like a tapered goat, just a conversation just in Gissele: terms of, Angel: yeah, so the candle, basically you’re etching ancestor on it, right? Angel: And then what you do is, again, you place it in the candle holder, you envision your ancestors around you. You call in your posse just the way you want to, and then you like that candle, close your eyes, call in that person or that those people you wanna work with. And then you have the conversation. Angel: Once you’re done, you, I ask to release you in love, light, and harmony. And then you tap out the candle. Now, here’s a trick. If the candle goes down to the nub, take another white candle and place it on top. [00:45:00] Envision the energy of that last candle into your new candle, and now you can use this consistently. Angel: I’ve had one I’ve had been doing this with one candle and candle holder for almost probably about nine, 10 years now. So each time you do that and invest the old energy into the new candle, you’re strengthening that candle and making the channel even clearer. Okay? And the letter, all you do again, is you write and write and write and write hope and open hope. Angel: Hope and open hope. Noo at the end, three times you sign it, you burn it, whether it’s in tinfoil or outside. And then you throw that cooled to the wind so that their spirit can get it. So those are two really beautiful things that you can do to find closure, to get the forgiveness. Because we also have to remember, and you know this, forgiveness sometimes isn’t not about the other person. Angel: It’s for us, right? We don’t need to carry that, and you can do it for yourself. Because sometimes the forgiveness we need to create is with our own selves, right? Sometimes we need to [00:46:00] forgive us in a situation, right? As parents, this is a really good one to do because sometimes we hold this guilt of we’re not perfect, right? Angel: I could have done this, I could have done that, especially if I have a child in crisis. I’ve worked with parents whose children are in crisis drug addicts in jail, and they blame themselves. So the letter ceremony is a wonderful ceremony to do with somebody in crisis. Or to do for yourself, to allow yourself to release that stuff that you can’t forgive, like guilt or that shame that you carry so that you can be more of service so you can be strong. Angel: Because it’s like being on an airplane. You can’t take care of someone unless you take care of you. Gissele: I loved everything you said. Angel: You can do this with animals too. Okay. So let’s say you’ve had Oh yeah. An animal attack. Somebody is, an animal is attacked to you. You can do that with the animal. An animal who’s crossed over whatever. Angel: So anyway, I just wanted to add that as well. Gissele: No, this is important that you’re mentioning that because there were so many mistakes I made with my dog, and he was so forgiving and gentle and kind. Gissele: there was times [00:47:00] when I think I over worried I didn’t know how to have a dog in the beginning. And so you’re a mom sometimes you’re, yeah. Like I feel like I could have done better with his seizures or, like I could have, fussed over him less. Gissele: ’cause I think sometimes I prevented him from just doing things right, because I was worried that something was gonna happen and. So Angel: box could laugh. That’s what I’m hearing right now. Did you used to hold his paw or used to do something where you held him? Gissele: he didn’t like his paw touch okay, so I adopted this dog. He was from the pound and he had a whole bunch of problems Angel: with his paw. Because you’re saying he didn’t like it, but it almost felt did you put cream? Angel: Did you do something with his paw? Because it almost was Gissele: Yeah, I used, yeah. Angel: Yeah. That made him feel good. So he is saying, thank you for that. Gissele: Oh, Angel: I think Gissele: I just loved him so much. Like it’s just it’s, Ooh, sorry. Angel: But it’s interesting because out of all of the things I could have chosen, that was, but notice the closure. Angel: Notice the release. Isn’t that beautiful just from that paw. He didn’t like his paw being held. But [00:48:00] boy, did that ever feel good when you put the cream on his hand? Wow. Did that ever feel good? So those things that were hard on ourselves, sometimes those have crossed over, are so appreciative of it. Angel: Like we don’t even realize that small little touch. That little thing. But do you see how rewarding my world is, how rewarding my work is? And how we’re touching other lives with this podcast because of that. He’s laughing. Gissele: It’s so interesting. ’cause you wouldn’t have known that. Angel: No. Gissele: Why I fast over that dog. Angel: Yeah, of course. It’s, it’s so funny. I havetwo dogs, a cat and a snake. And we’re adopting a second. And I love my dogs. I love my cat too, but my snake. That girl. Oh my God. She, oh, I love her so much. And I’m, it’s so funny Gissele: because when you see a snake, you don’t think some of us are like, Ugh, snakes, right? Angel: Oh, she’s gorgeous. She’s Gissele: so lovable. Yeah. Angel: I would get her right now and show her to you, but she’s in shed right now, so I can’t quite touch her. and she actually travels with me [00:49:00] everywhere. She’s got her own backpack. She’s got, I know. I fuss. If we didn’t, there’s something wrong. Angel: There’s something. So I get it. Gissele: Yeah. And so I think the point that you made about self-forgiveness is so important. And so the, being able to write a letter to yourself I think is so fundamental too, because there’s so many things we carry that we don’t realize . I think. And the other thing too that I was thinking about was, I didn’t realize this. Gissele: It was my cousin that actually helped me see that I was carrying so much resentment towards the history of our family. ‘ cause because there’s was so much intergenerational trauma. Angel: Inter Yes. Lineage Gissele: clearance. ’cause there was so much intergenerational trauma that was passed down. I feel like I was like, oh, come on. Gissele: Yeah. I inherited all of these things and I was already like, gonna work out some things. It’s like, why didn’t you sort it out? And so nobody’s done the work of healing themselves. They just kept passing it along. And so now I feel like, oh, this is the work. But, and so I wasn’t acknowledging. Gissele: [00:50:00] Strength the resiliency , Angel: right? Gissele: Yeah. Angel: So this letter can, you, can do for your lineage, which will allow you to release all that stuff to, so I did a ceremony once called the moon, I key rights, and I used to lead ceremony. And I’m getting back into that. And it’s South American and the South Americans have given me so much. Angel: And so there was this gentleman and he was Jewish. And when I went to do this ceremony for him, one of them was lineage clear. It was a series of nine ceremonies. And one of them is about lineage clearing. And I could see his family, his people, and the generations ancient Trump ancient. Angel: And he carried all of it. And it just whew, I could feel it. And at the end of the ceremony, he said to me, he goes, I don’t feel anything. I’m like, okay, that’s cool. No problem. You know something. Yeah, Gissele: Yeah. Angel: As three days later, I get a phone call from his wife, who was a very good friend of mine. Angel: I said, what did you do to him? And I said, [00:51:00] what? And she goes, I think he’s dying. And I said, what? And she goes, his face. He’s he’s sick. He’s throwing on his eyes are watering. And I’m peeing myself laughing. I’m like, he’s feeling it now, isn’t he? And yeah. He got through that. But after again, his world opened up. Angel: He became lighter. And funny enough, he’s a, an animal chiropractor. He works with humans and animals, and his work with animals went more deeply. It was just, it’s an amazing thing when we carry all of that to release it and what happens, right? We may not realize it, but we are so powerful in what we choose to carry and what we choose to release. Angel: And that letter you can do as a lineage clearing. And the ancestor candle, right? You write ancestors, you can call in all of your lineage from all of time, past, present, and future. You can do this even from past lives. I call in my lineage. I clear you up. Every time you do a healing kid, I kid you not, every time you do a healing, every time you do a ceremony, you are clearing something in your lineage. Angel: [00:52:00] Seven generations back. Seven, seven generations forward. Okay? Yeah. When I do ceremony, I know it affects my child. I know it affects my partner. I know it affects my animals. ’cause this is my tribe. Gissele: Oh, I’m excited to do I had actually written letters, just I think it was a couple of weeks ago. Gissele: And I’m gonna add the ano part of it. And then the I, because I couldn’t make a fire. ’cause I’m like, I’m surrounded by snow and we have a fire pit outside. And I’m like, okay, now I gotta find some. That’s why I had to ask. Angel: Yeah, that’s a, actually, that’s a fantastic question too because a lot of people do live in apartments, right? Angel: They do live in places where they can’t have access to that. So tinfoil and usually what I do is like tinfoil one way and tinfoil the other. And then, but it Gissele: doesn’t wreck the sink. Angel: No, because it’s tinfoil. Because it’s just a piece of paper. Like you’re talking about a little piece of paper, you cut it up and you just burn it little by little. Angel: It’s not gonna burn the sink. Gissele: Okay. Yeah. Angel: Promise. Gissele: Wonderful. So a couple last questions. I’m asking everyone this season, what is your definition of self-love? Angel: Oh wow. That’s a great [00:53:00] question. For me it’s contentment peace and the feeling of safety. And it’s funny you’re asking that because I have only realized that I did a massive ceremony for myself over the New Years and the vision, the new vision I have of myself is one where I feel safe and I feel this contentment. Angel: So for me, self-love is that feeling of safe. Angel: Yeah. Gissele: Last question is, where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Share anything that you wanna share? Angel: Oh, yeah, please. My website is raising energy.com. My Instagram is the best place to see a lot of my work, so that’s instagram.com/raising energy. Angel: Pretty much anywhere you go, if you plug in Raising Energy, I’m gonna come up or Angel Morgan YouTube as well. So yeah, raising Energy is a great place to find me. If you want to book a reading with me, whether it’s animals or or humans, you can go to raising energy.com or Angel Morgan Pet Psychic. Angel: And I have [00:54:00] a blog, and my blog is my psychic lifestyle.com. So you can access all of that through my Instagram, but if you do want a reading definitely go to my website because my assistant deals with all the Instagram dms that we get. So the fastest way to get me is through email. Gissele: Thank you, angel. Gissele: This was an amazing conversation. I just felt so good. And it’s so funny. You were interesting, the gifts of South Americans. I’m from Peru originally. Angel: No, you’re not. I didn’t know that. Yes, Gissele: yes. I’m, I immigrated to Canada with my parents. I was born in Peru. I haven’t been back, but my goal is to go back. Angel: No Gissele: wonder I keep seeing messages of Pe ru. I’m just like, okay. Angel: No wonder. I love you so much. Gissele: Me too. Angel: Oh my God, I love you. I think you’re awesome. So thank you. Thank Gissele: you. Same. I just love this conversation. Angel: Yeah. And thank you for being such a fantastic host. Your questions were just phenomenal, so I really appreciate you and I’m sure your viewers do too, so Gissele: thank you. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for everyone attuned to another episode of Love and [00:55:00] Compassion podcast with Gissele . Bye.