Opening up Chaplaincy: an invitation to question and innovate

Martin McGonigle returns as a guest on what is our 50th episode and inspires us with his descriptions of the new community role he has initiated at the Dougie Mac Hospice. Their SPARC team is actively guided in their ambitions, and assisted in their monitoring, by a steering group which helps to drive equality and education through the hospice. Education of clinical staff enables them to have confidence in spiritual assessments and in differentiating care through cultural competence, sharing the responsibility for meeting SPARC needs. A very collaborative approach. We talk about the importance of self-knowledge and self-love, about intimacy and humility in our engagements and the learning that comes from every encounter. As our last podcast episode for a while, we inevitable reflect also on how we have grown through the shared wonderings and ponderings with our guests, and the gratitude we feel for collaboration and openness in chaplaincy.

Anna (Anne) Vandenhoeck is a professor of pastoral and spiritual care at the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies at KU Leuven, Belgium. But her curiculum extends into other faculties like medicine and physiotherapy, giving the opportunity not only to teach spirituality to other disciplines but to work towards a shared understanding of what quality of care means. She shares some research about nurses' competence in spiritual awareness and engagement (their 'antenna'). Your feeling of helplessness is an indicator of a spiritual dimension in the conversation and you can be trained to respond in a way that the patients feels heard. Whilst tiredness, digital demands and understaffing at work can conspire against engaging with a patient at a deeper level, Anna argues that the health professional can enhance their job satisfaction through such encounters and competence. We wonder about the goal of inclusive language for conversations about spirituality and how research can help with clarifying the words used in shared definitions and concepts. It may well be that the multi-lingual context of Leuwen is key to the curiosity and ambition of finding common language.

Lindsay DeWal realised pretty soon that although her skills in Humanist pastoral care were entirely transferable to the UK context, there are significant differences from her native Holland in the culture and faith tradition which she encountered. Lindsay realised that there is little to no research from a humanist perspective in the UK and embarked on a PhD. We explore with Lindsay what her research tells us about how people within chaplaincy teams feel about their identity and place in their team. The dangers of assumptions we may make about each other are revealed but also the enrichment in the experience of cross-belief working. Our discussion goes on to reflect on the precariousness of the chaplaincy profession and its anomaly in the NHS structures and requirements. Has the time has come to forego some of the freedom of flying under the radar to professionalise what we do through training, qualifications, research and evidence based practice?

Conversations for Life offers a way to talk with the living about dying. Mary Matthiesen shares how they have developed the resources and training to have these liberating conversations that give agency and self-determination. Workshops with clinical staff using the conversation cards quickly get to the intimate and unique values that are beyond theory and dogma. We wonder about how we can guard against imposing our own constructions around death and mortality on those we encounter. It is important to allow people to flow with their conversations and to validate (and sometimes expand) their expression of individual issues or beliefs. Mary emphasises that conversations do not need to have a solution or an answer, and can be riddled with false assumptions if these are not explored and challenged. Mary shares some examples of how the Conversations for Life cards may be used with clinicians, families, children and individuals to explore and express feelings and wishes about mortality.

Lee Barford walks us through the mechanics and opportunities of Artificial Intelligence (AI). We recognise how it can already help people making simple enquiries in Google (“how do I support my neighbour whose partner had died?”) but will it become a tool in chaplaincies with its ability to trawl through vast amounts of digital information and ever increasing sophistication in collating responses? Lee feels that AI will never replace the value-laden, emotionally intelligent authenticity of a human being but undoubtedly people will try to generate an AI who can create a pipeline into our services. We ponder how AI would deal with the unfathomable, the inexplicable or the supernatural. But we all agree on the potential for AI to become an excellent tool in chaplain training and CPD, simulating encounters that push us into difficult territories and allow for constructive critique afterwards. We hope this conversation starts you thinking about what is ahead and how it might enhance what we deliver.

Ethel Maqeda explains the way of thinking that underpins the lives of many people across the south of the Africa continent. Ubuntu is a worldview that may not have written texts, but it is an ancient and solid philosophy that has been passed through the generations. A person is only a person through the people around them. Ethel talks about core concepts of connectedness, compassion, solidarity , respect and dignity. All qualities that resonate with the chapIain role. In her community work, she focus is on listening and seeking to understand. Strength comes from working as a team or a community, not from isolated efforts. Ethel introduces the term ‘Sahwira’ - a friend who can be more than a relative - and how this might feature in healthcare, but also in her own self-care. The activism and kindness of those around us can bring us strength and learning - a solidarity and connection that is at the heart of Ubuntu.

Dr Sonya Sharma and Dr Sheryl Reimer Kirkham have done some interesting research into the experiences and practice of chaplains (or spiritual care providers in the Canadian context). Their prayer project looked at where and how prayer featured in the health care environment, taking a broad rather than a theological definition of prayer. In another project they focussed on the experience of female healthcare chaplains and this led to an exploration of the intersectionality between race and and gender. Sonya and Sheryl emphasise the importance of recognising our own positionality in our practice and we discuss together the dimensions of difference and sameness and the search for similarities through which we can build our connections. We end by thinking about what the research offers in terms of improving practice at institutional and individual levels. Research by outsiders looking on on our practice not only offers a critical perspective, but connects what we do with wider agendas and debates.

Ruqaiyah explains how the Markfield Institute’s Muslim chaplaincy courses came about over 20 years ago, and how trainees are prepared for roles in hospital, prison and university chaplaincy. She offers insights into how Islam is differently structured from Christian faiths which can impact on who comes forward to chaplaincy roles. We reflect on how we can help people seeking a religious steer by explaining the range of options and perspectives (in Islam there are four schools of thought which might offer alternative positions on any given dilemma or choice). We consider how our presence in chaplaincy teams can influence wider understandings of culture and heritage. We agree on the importance of chaplaincy roles in our communities to challenge divisive narratives and to build cultures of acceptance where we serve the whole of humanity; anyone in need.

Danielle is director of the Sankofa CPE Centre in Chicago which places social justice at the heart of its chaplaincy training and internships. She argues for a shift in our models for chaplaincy and has developed the S.E.L.F model that recognises a hierarchy of needs that call for signposting, psychological first aid and acting as a sounding board ahead of any faith or theological dialogue. Danielle questions the narrowness of some of the what, where and who do chaplaincy in an inspiring and engaging way that can inform an evolution of inclusive community spiritual care.

Terri O'Sullivan works as an Apostate Service Development Officer at Faith to Faithless, an organisation which offers support to people who leave high control religions through peer support, social meetings, speaker events and a helpline. Terri is an ex-JW and understands the pressures and conflicts that arise for apostates who stand to lose their family, community and home, leaving them in a state of vulnerability and isolation. The Faith to Faithless helpline offers trauma-informed pastoral care and advice, recognising the long-term impact of control, judgement and rejection. We reflect on how important confidentiality is to people who disclose any doubt about their religion, and our role in providing a safe, neutral space for them to voice their doubts - 'apostate' may not be the word we use as it is laden with judgement. People who leave a religion may retain a belief in god - their journey may be away from the control, rather than the faith - our listening can help them untangle their programming.

We reflect with James Parker about our complementary and overlapping work with our clinical psychologist colleagues. We explore the emotional toll of listening and the role of clinical supervision in processing the impact of what we hear from colleagues about their load, maybe their moral injury. We explore how we can make safe space for people to divulge their struggles and process their emotional or spiritual pain. Working together allows us to cross refer and for people to find their best fit for the conversations they want to have.

We were delighted to have Leon Dundas back as our guest this time talking about Intercultural Fluency. Leon brings not only his wealth of experience of 'quality listening services' but also his vision and humility when talking about how he strives to find the language, cultural references and bridges into other worldviews. It is about hospitality, valuing others worldviews , not in a tokenistic way or smudging out the differences, but striving for authenticity whilst leaning away from the assumption that one (dominant) paradigm is the right one. Leon talks about the risk of 'going in deep' and we look at how chaplains and pastoral carers might adopt genuinely inclusive practices.

Daniel Nuzum is joined by two students (Kate and Paula) from the pilot CPE project that trials a way for UK pastoral carers to gain a professional qualification that is recognised internationally and solidly based in lived experience and clinical practice. The course demands a knowledge of self and a sharing of self that means practitioners have a heightened awareness of ‘who the patient meets when they meet me’. We learn more about the course, the appetite in the NHS to support it and the potential it has to breed a new diverse generation of pastoral carers and healthcare chaplains.

Chantal shares the course her own bereavement, professional and spiritual journey and how this has informed the OMEGA course that she runs to equip everyday, well people to have conversations about death in their social circles. We note how, through our work roles, we are familiar with this territory and have built our communication skills, but sadly, many people avoid those with a life limiting diagnosis because they feel uncomfortable with the conversation. Stig talks about us ‘stepping forward, rather than stepping back’ and Chantal refers to this a ‘you can talk to me, I can take it’ - a containment or safe space. Chantel believes that we can all have conversations about death and grief. We ponder on the need for us to feel at ease with our own mortality if we hare to have these conversations without defence or fear. Death is within the context of a life; what has been lived, what is yet to live and conversations about mortality as inevitably also conversation about life.

Jo and Stig start with a short reflection on podcasting so far then they reflect on how we can support people who find themselves as they wait in the timeless zone that can open up in healthcare when waiting for a diagnosis, outcomes of treatment, a bed, a taxi home, an imminent death, a clarity about what next. The recognition of the experience of these liminal or limbo states means listening carefully and acknowledging the frustrations, pain or despair that is unique to each person. Jo feels this most acutely in the Emergency Department where there is little privacy and often great vulnerability. There are no quick fixes and no easy responses - powerlessness can be a feeling that we also experience. We look forward to our guest list for next year and offer an open invite to fill the remaining slots.

Lyn Baylis explains the complexity and yet simplicity of Pagan beliefs and how the Pagan Seminary course trains people to be knowledgeable about the wide range of Pagan beliefs and to be ready to engage with all people with a spirit of openness and curiosity. The seminary offers accreditation to assist people into chaplaincy roles. Lyn gives examples of a chaplaincy with good inclusive practice but is realistic about how misinformation about Paganism can get in the way. We reflect on what is driving a rise in Paganism, especially in young people, and how this links to heightened environmental concern - all Pagans hold great reverence for the earth and all living things.

Daniel Grossoehme shares with us how his research agenda explores some of the same territory that he did as a chaplain. He has been researching the role of spiritual beliefs in coping with the impact of cystic fibrosis on families, learning from their experience as to how to help their children live well. We ask about collaborative research and the responsibility of the researcher to help people to find the language and vocabulary to describe their circumstances and feelings. People tell their story in different ways to different people: mixing up the team enriches conversations.

In this wide ranging discussion with Nell Cockell we explore how she works with families in the community where there has been a child with a life-limiting condition who has died. We explore how her role evolved from an initial focus on the staff who knew the families, and the need to 'debrief' not just on a clinical but also an emotional /spiritual plane. We ponder how you find people who are right for the role of pastoral and spiritual care and Nell shares here insights and experiences of walking (sometimes literally) with parents in their grief. Many useful steers and perspectives for an evolving concept of what chaplaincy is and where it happens.

Josh talks us through his journey from acting into chaplaincy, qualifying in the MA is Pastoral and Existential Practice he appreciates the colleagues who took a punt on him and gave him the chance to join in chaplaincy with a non-religious worldview. Josh combines his mental health chaplaincy work with teaching acting and voice-overs and draws parallels with the skills he teaches actors in being in the 'now', being open, holding a safe space and suspending judgement. Improvisation calls for a 'wait and see' approach where 'the scene is in the other person' and our reactions are in response to their actions. At times this calls for a flight of fancy and a suspension of logic to join in and Josh talks inspiringly of his pastoral care approach and how he complements the therapists and consultants in attending to people's mental ill health. The longer term care of people in the Mental Health Trust means that he sees people regularly and develops incremental and longer term conversations, in ward and community settings. We reflect on the complexity of the journey that people may make through their mental ill-health and how grief and intrusive voices can be part of what they are dealing with. Josh shares that he is neuro-divergant and how this insight helps him in his work. This leads us to comment on how chaplaincy teams are only as rich as the people in them and how the experience of being a minority has such value in how we understand and behave towards others. We wonder about the value of humour in our work and how for Josh, finding out what makes someone laugh can be a way into learning more about them and how they look at life. Josh leaves us with the observation that the recent NHS chaplaincy guidelines fail to address role of chaplaincy in the mental health context - it differs in important ways for acute and end of life chaplaincy and this needs to be addressed.

The challenge of meeting pastoral and spiritual needs in the fast pace and mobility of a large acute hospital is contrasted with the steadier hospice environment leading us to wonder about how to be sure that we are not favouring some folk over others in our visiting practice. Referrals are often the backbone of chaplaincies, but can this skew who gets to see us? On the one hand there may be gatekeepers who expedite a chaplaincy visit because of their own convictions on behalf of a patient, and on the other hand those who might seek to 'protect' their patients due to a misunderstanding of the inclusive pastoral nature of the role. There is also a danger of us following own preferences and developing a case load of visiting with patients with whom we feel most affinity. We discuss ways to keep chaplaincy open to all, open to immediate or transitory need, open to skeptics, so that we can strive to be fair and equal and alert to the bias and assumptions that can favour some over others.

When he heard Olivia Jackson talk about her book, (un)certain, Stig was sure that she would make a great guest for our podcast opening up, through the multiple voices in her study, the experience of deconstructing long held and deeply meaningful beliefs. For Olivia the questioning, or uncertainty, started to intrude on her evangelical beliefs as she encountered raw inequality first hand, and began to doubt some of the leadership behaviours she witnessed. We discuss how we regularly come across people with doubts and questions in our chaplaincy work, and the importance of being alongside people, neutral and listening: this can be a lonely and isolating time. There can be feelings of loss in deconstruction of previously precious beliefs, but there is also gain: the concept of God or divinity or connectivity can transform into something more universal or personal. Olivia describes deconstruction as a process where people find 'truer and fuller versions of themselves'. As chaplains, Olivia suggests we need to steer clear of any assumptions about where people are or what their journey has and will be. Whilst certainty in life can offer a sense of control and predictability when things are going well, uncertainty may creep in when people feel abandoned, blamed or guilty for their circumstances. Olivia's book gives us valuable insight and inspiration about the experiences of people deconstructing and reconstructing their identities and beliefs; their vulnerabilities, their need for allies and their unique paths.

Cheryl Holmes has been involved in the Spiritual Health Association in Australia for 20 years, seeing the organisation transform from an interchurch chaplaincy committee to a prominent advocate for compassionate, person-centred spiritual care in health services. Cheryl draws on global sources for the development of coherent and accessible spiritual practice; we talk about the need to take an inclusive approach that encompasses all worldviews, not as add-ons to an established model, but from the outset, making sure our practices give everyone a sense of relevance and belonging. Cheryl is keen to separate out the qualities needed to be a spiritual care professional (see SHA framework) and the times when a religious chaplain might be called upon, pointing out the distinctions between spiritual care and religious care. We discuss the importance of language (what you are called; how you open conversations) and the need to 'give permission' to people to have conversations that go to deep places, but also recognising that this is not universally appreciated or relevant. Cheryl challenges the notion that we go in with 'no agenda' - but that could be a whole other podcast! Together, we recognise how far we are yet to travel to embrace an inclusive and integrated approach to spiritual care.

Liz brings her Buddhist wisdoms to our reflections on the quality of compassion and its roots in our relationships with others and ourselves. Liz is developing her practice in systems-centered training which promotes recognition that we are part of a whole picture instead of just our chaplaincy part, and helps us to recognise ourselves as active members in creating the wider systems that shape ourselves and the organisations we belong to. We share thoughts about our own practice in being with people in their darkness and doubt, wondering about compassion fatigue, boundaries and capacity. Liz explains her commitment to research which evidences the contribution of chaplaincy, offering up a poem ('Poem for the Emergency Department' - see our resources section on our website for a PDF) that she wrote to summarise the findings of her research in an emergency department, assessing unmet needs in elderly palliative patients alongside her clinical colleagues.

Sue Downie kindly stepped in last minute to share her patient experience and business expertise with us. Sue has been using the services of four acute hospitals in recent years but has never encountered a chaplain or pastoral carer, been signposted to one or see any posters or literature that made her aware that this was a service she might use. Like many, she assumed chaplains mainly came to offer last rights to Christian patients and therefore were not there for her. We ponder how we might influence staff to refer patients, and realise that many of them also think the service is for the religious which will influence their signposting. Sue recalls a particularly lonely spell in isolation when a pastoral visit would have been of great benefit, and this prompts us to recognise that we could look to identifying and targeting similar 'pinch points'. Sue shares her knowledge of customer care and talks us through the benefits of benchmarking and options for gathering feedback that informs practice and identifies more accurately what is going well and what needs attention. The act of finding out can also open up the opportunity for pastoral conversations and we wonder if volunteers could take on an feedback-gathering role. There is always scope to refresh how we do things and sharpen our communications to be more inclusive and successful - Sue offers us another lens through which to look at what we do.

Tim Dixon, deputy chaplain at a large mental health trust in the north of England, shares his journey into chaplaincy from the age of 21 and the findings of his PhD in ‘liminal space’ in which remand prisoners (and indeed patients) find themselves. A limbo space which separates a person from what their familiar world, is temporary and in flux and probably leads to a new place yet to be discovered. We discuss how chaplains might help people navigate this period of disorientation and powerlessness. We also reflect on how far chaplains are themselves liminal figures, on the edges and able to permeate into different layers of healthcare practice. Tim contrasts his current freedom to flex with the set requirements for chaplains in the prison setting, recognising building trust in both settings is key.

Ricarda Witcombe, Sue Miles, Jagdish Singh and Dr Dipankar Bose share their collaborative work at South Warwickshire University NHSFT to build the presence of all faiths and beliefs through an active online Faith Group. In recognition that their chaplaincy team was not diverse, they set out to widen their colleague network through active celebration of festivals and through exploration not only of different approaches and traditions, but also of the communalities that we share as human beings. The benefits of this dialogue for personal and spiritual growth are noted and also the potential to spread the benefits to the wider organisation. The team share how the chapel space is a space for all people seeking peace or solace, used as it is for Christian and Muslim prayers as well as for exhibitions and concerts. There are words of caution about recruiting by faith rather than by qualities and how our conversations with each other and with patients ideally are about affirmation and growth.

Sylvia cautions against a one-size-fits-all approach to the Jewish patient and advocates for an understanding of Judaism as a Peoplehood based on an ancient unity that offers a sense of indigenous identity, but also of belonging and responsibility to others in that community. We stumble over the name 'chaplaincy' (again) and wonder at its meaning for non-Christians and how this impacts on take-up of any offer to support. Often a Jewish person would look to their own community for support; Judaism does not have a tradition of priesthood in the same way as other beliefs, and therefore the Rabbi is not necessarily the person who might visit. Jewish people are each responsible for their own religious journey, and rituals often happen in the home as part of family life. As in any faith group, there are different streams that people may follow (e.g.orthodox, liberal, reform) but Sylvia emphasises that there is a fluidity between these streams and people change over time. It is important to establish with a patient how they currently describe where they belong, as it may be, for example, that they revert to more traditional practice in difficult circumstances. At the centre of Judaism are a set of Jewish laws (that evolve over time) which guide the community in its care of others and, in particular, Sylvia explains about the care of the dying which seeks to protect the person (Goses) from harm or disturbance and preserve their dignity until the end, a cosseting that offers a example as to how responsibility for a good death can be owned by a community.

Jo and Stig discuss the case study of Lina, a critically ill patient visiting the UK from a remote island. They ponder the challenges and questions that might arise for chaplains in meeting her requests at end-of-life. This prompts reflections on where our personal and professional boundaries might lie on how a team approach can support best practice, but how a diversity of experience and opinion on that team can help to find solutions. The case study reflects how intense and heavy the role of chaplain can feel; how we should strive to be flexible and open-minded; how unpredictably each day can play out. You are invited to use the case study yourselves (see the resource area on our Opening Up Chaplaincy website) as a vehicle to explore some of the rubs in Chaplaincy and find out where your team sits with this example.

Julian shares the course offer for chaplains at St Padarn’s, based as it is in its Christian ethos and pedagogy, but seeking to be welcoming to all. We explore some of the barriers and and bias that make qualifying training more accessible and attractive to some over others and the challenges of redesign of systems and norms that go back decades. We applaud the idea of co-production and user-involvement in the evolution of pastoral and spiritual care services and the tyranny of labelling when our worldviews, faiths and beliefs are iterative and evolving over a lifetime; how building on our ‘common wealth’ is a richer seam to mine than separate or exclusive paths.

Our conversation with Sarah Kerr explores the diversity of traditions (Druidry, Heathenry, Witchcraft, Shamanism, Animism) that come under a Pagan umbrella, including the traditions of paganism in Africa and South America. The Pagan Federation seeks to advocate for a more positive and informed understanding of the ancient beliefs and traditions that were systematically disrupted and discredited over the centuries. The suspicion and fear that was encouraged, meant that it was only 70 years ago that the Witchcraft Act was repealed. Numbers of Pagans are rising, especially amongst the young, with the latest census confirming over 100,000 in the UK, but actual numbers maybe two or three times this. We noted how important it is for patients and staff to feel safe and connected in conversations with a chaplain or pastoral carer, and the dangers of assuming that one belief tradition equips us to meet all needs - when you follow a spiritual pathway that has been so maligned, caution about others' judgement is understandable, and Pagans in healthcare would benefit form a like-minded connection. Sarah points out that fear of persecution or disrespect has made Pagans late to join interfaith dialogue and there is ground to be gained in opening up conversations and joining initiatives (including chaplaincy teams). Sarah points out the importance for Pagans of connection with nature and the cycle of the year. We recorded this episode on the Spring Equinox and noted the significance of the energy returning to the land. Living life connected with the seasons, brings Pagans stability and grounds them in nature - hospitals and confinement can conspire against this, and negatively impact spiritual wellbeing. Sarah is a witch and healer and explains how her practice easily sits alongside medical diagnosis and treatments, helping the individual walk their path / find their healing by recognising the delicate but inevitable interplay between the physical and the spiritual self. Pagan rituals are symbolic and meaningful and we note that for Pagans naming a new child is very important; how death for Pagans is a transition where energy changes into a different form; Stig shares experiences of Pagan weddings he has experienced that are resonating and profound. We end by asking about how to bring more Pagans into healthcare chaplaincy (to catch up with Prison chaplaincy) and Sarah mentions the NPSRCH course and the Pagan Seminary course.

Chris shares his journey from evangelical roots, to a liberal seminary, to prison chaplaincy, and then how his practice and beliefs evolved further through community chaplaincy on the streets. We recognise that our lives can become richer through questions rather than answers, through our differences rather than our like-mindedness. We touch on encounters with apostacy and the obstacles to people expressing this freely; on the skills in responding to apostacy without judgement or fear. Chris points out that training for ministry is often about outputs, about the pulpit, but chaplaincy is all about listening at a deep level. We ponder the challenges in offering useful questions, attempting to understand, giving space through silences and the power of being authentic (I don't know the answer to that either).  Freethinking is the ability to engage with hard questions and difficult situations with an open mind and a readiness to see another's perspective - there is no attachment to things or concepts that might muddle your interpretation or cloud your judgement. Chris has become sceptical about the value of bringing in the book, or the scriptures, to chaplaincy situations and wonders if it becomes a crutch because the intensity and uncomfortableness of being alongside another human being in their distress is just too much. We finish with a contemplation about whether the act of chaplaincy is in itself transformative and part of our own individual journeys - and we agree that it is not so much what you believe, but how you use those beliefs to do good.

Jamie Fearn is doing a PhD on the intersections between spiritual and bodily pain by exploring with co-researchers how they describe their recovery. This proves fertile ground for our discussion about how we encounter trauma in chaplaincy - physical, emotional, moral and spiritual trauma, to do with current circumstances or to do with events in the past. Jamie shares her knowledge of Hakomi which uses mindfulness as a means for connecting people with their inner and physical experiences, building on the principle of unity and interconnectedness. We share examples from our practice and also consider where the boundaries are between therapy and chaplaincy (or pastoral care) - to do with intention to get to a destination or not? Jamie does not come to pastoral care in mental health services with a theology qualification - her route is secular. Such 'sideways' entries into the chaplaincy team offers important insights and perspectives that can feed directly into our chaplaincy practice.  We share a desire to be authentically alongside others or to help them dig into their own experiences to find their explanations and resolutions and Jamie demonstrates clearly how she can add value. Further details about Jamie's research can be found on our Opening Up Chaplaincy Website.   

One year on, Stig and Jo take the opportunity to return to where our podcast started, with a conversation between ourselves about what chaplaincy is all about in the 2020s. Stig suggests chaplaincy is riddled with assumptions and we note how these can be fuelled by prejudice or discrimination. We explore how we need to keep our own assumptions in check and open to change; whether we assume another's thoughts about dying, or their family cohesion, or their sexuality, or their ability to understand, or their ethical stances, or their political views, and so on.  On the other hand, we also encounter assumptions that others may have about us as chaplains; about our beliefs or practices, or about our level of interest in them. So yes, assumptions are everywhere; as chaplains we should probably be intrigued where they are proved wrong and emboldened to counter any stereotype that others assume about us.

Amarjodh shares with us how he combines the skills of doctor and chaplain in his approach to pain and distress in others. His life is deeply informed by his Sikh faith and its ethos of altruism and humility. He talks about the 'freedom to delve' into people's beliefs as a chaplain and how a holistic approach recognises that existential distress happens throughout life, especially when faced with adversity or illness. Amarjodh goes on the share the philosophy of the Sikh religion and how it guides people to remember God, to be honest and to share with others (time, knowledge. assets). He offers guidance on how an awareness of the internal and external practices of being a Sikh can help clinical staff to remain sensitive and supportive of the Sikh patient in their care, with the best course of action to always ask the patient themselves what is important to them. We finish on a discussion about the nature and meaning of pain, outside the body, inside the body or in the spirit. For a devout person, spiritual pain is the most distressing and sometimes the most important to address.  Amarjodh invites us to explore how pain can be a medicine and happiness can be a disease - their coexistence begs for a reflection on meaning, purpose and learning in life. A thought provoking and informative conversation.

In this exploratory and reflective conversation we wonder together about how to ensure that the human side of care is not squeezed out by the staffing and resource pressures in the NHS.  Dr Isobel Morton has worked as a junior doctor through the abnormalities of the pandemic, observing and experiencing the realities of palliative and acute care. She reflects on how the landscape has changed and what may be ahead in terms of palliative care, reminding us that, as chaplains, we need to be engaged in the evolution of services to maximise our reach and contribution. We discuss how chaplaincy can offer staff and patients a space not only to have their difficulties acknowledged, but also to process their situations and dilemmas, listened to and supported.  There are times when hard-pressed doctors may not have time to pursue important conversations with patients, but referral to the chaplain can at least mean that spiritual and emotional care is extended and we note that in engaging with patients who are especially challenged or troubled, chaplains can ease pressures on the staff.

Spiritual literacy underpins much of this podcast with Anastasia sharing her Spirituality Wheel (see the resources section on our website) which seeks to establish a universal and accessible format for exploring the spiritual or essential self. Working in mental health chaplaincy, she shares how she uses the Wheel to facilitate individual and group interactions as well as in spiritual assessment and care planning. Anastasia has developed creative and ingenious ways of ‘nourishing’ through poetry, singing and creative writing in ways that validate individual experiences and promote connectivity. Fascinating ideas that push the boundaries on how chaplaincy is framed and understood.

In this broad and wide ranging discussion we explore with Leti Hawthorn the knowledge, skills and attitudes that are needed to be authentically non-judgemental and present with others. Leti shares her journey into interfaith ministry, driven by a recognition of how her own cultural and faith history might limit her ability to show equal compassion; and how much richer her insights and appreciations are with more understanding of other beliefs and worldviews. Leti is an enabler and considers an important part of her role is to support others to engage with the emotional and spiritual, as well as the physical, in their caregiving. Leti is interested in the role of ritual and ceremony in human life and draws on the shamanistic tradition in the idea of holding space with others, or 'rubbing bones' as she calls it. She is someone with a rich spiritual literacy that is not expressed in a religious way and we muse over the metaphor of 'light' as goal or experience in the human condition. Leti describes her respect for people whose beliefs are non-religious and we ponder on the notion of rules and boundaries in religions and finding our 'fit'. We go on to explore how alternative views and perspectives such as hers fit in current models of chaplaincy and recognise that although there is an obvious need for regulation and standards, religious qualifications and a letter from a sponsor do not necessarily guarantee the interpersonal, intuitive and humble qualities that are key to the role. Care also need to be taken not to exclude people, like Leti and Jo, because their routes into chaplaincy might be different. Leti's voice is powerful and persuasive in suggesting how chaplaincy can open up.

Triggered by the death of her Dad a few days ago,  Jo reflects with Stig on what makes a good death.  They think about how to talk about death and the dangers of assuming that it is always terrible and tragic. As chaplains we must be cautious and tentative in locating just how people might be feeling about their own death or that of their loved one. Death is a wholly individual experience and not a path that we travel more than once, so it is unchartered territory. Some people may be strengthened by the presence of others and others may wish to die alone as a deeply personal and private experience. The challenge can be in reading the situation. At times relief is part of the emotional mix and this is legitimate, not something to feel guilty about. There can be humour and serendipity - not everything needs to be solemn or explained. And we reflect on how, as a chaplain, knowledge of your experience of loss can trigger others to share theirs and how loss of parents is different and can have lifelong reverberations.

Leon shares his insightful perspectives on how his ethnicity, his faith and his rich life experiences inform his chaplaincy practice. He has lived in different parts of the world and in different communities, worked in healthcare chaplaincy, hospices (children and adults), and currently in prisons with the remit of 'chaplain' but with a breadth of understanding of that role that is informed by his own experiences of oppression and a deep empathy with the patient, staff and prisoner experience. We throw light on concepts of privilege and power that can play out, knowingly and unknowingly, and the chaplain responsibility to challenge and facilitate 'courageous discussions'. We question the idea of 'moving people on' in their own agendas or in ours; the need to recognise our roles as 'professionals' alongside others in the institution; the importance of informed 'code-switching' in our interactions - not just changing what we say, but being credible and respectful in how we connect with people who hold different beliefs from us. Leon has such wisdoms about the concepts and practice of chaplaincy, how it differs in prisons and in healthcare and how trauma is often the common core in our journeys with others. His articulation of the issues exemplifies how diverse voices are essential in articulation and evolution of chaplaincy.

Simon is active in senior levels at the College of Healthcare Chaplains and the UK Board of Healthcare Chaplains and offers his views about the dimension of professionalism in chaplaincy. We look at role boundaries with other professions and wonder about the essential qualities of the role, how to be ‘deeply rooted’ and how this relates to endorsement and inclusion. We explore how to get at the ‘slippery fish’ in conversations, who to prioritise in our engagements and how asking about faith or belief can set us on too narrow a path.

This episode takes a wander through the concept and practice of empathy, a key component in chaplaincy. We look at our different perspectives and intentions in being empathetic and Simon offers explanations as to the difference between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy and how this can be explained in terms of human development and neuroscience. We consider the challenges in being empathetic, for example when you are tired or you find it hard to like or connect with another person. Also the need for self-awareness and critique of our empathy intentions and practice to ensure that we are not making assumptions or over-identifying. Simon offers some techniques for developing empathetic practice including the notion of centring or grounding yourself before your encounters with others, acknowledging the Buddhist ethos that lies behind this. Simon draws on his previous Christian faith to talk about the core concept of love; how feeling loved (whether by a god or other relationship) impacts on our own self-love and ability to love others. A wide ranging discussion 

Martin helps us to explore essential qualities and approaches to being a chaplain, informed by his Buddhist practice and his commitment to make safe space for others to explore their concerns and perspectives. Martin goes on to share his concerns about how any push to professionalise chaplaincy could perpetuate the outdated ethos of ‘representation’ and limit opportunities to validate chaplains from all beliefs and traditions.

Mark Dowd shares the background to his book My Tsunami Journey which charts his personal responses to making his thought-provoking film Tsunami: Where Was God?; a documentary in which he interviewed local people in several countries about their suffering after the disaster of 2004.   Our discussion explores the overlap with chaplaincy practice, the concept of Karma and the caution needed in applying western or faith-specific beliefs to others' lives. We touch on the importance of self-care in being alongside others' trauma and the authenticity of being present in body as well as mind. Mark heard how people differently interpreted and processed the injustice of their losses, maybe reacting with confusion, others fortified by the experience, and some feeling fatalism and resignation; rarely did he meet someone who lost their faith. Mark suggests that in the end, it is not so much about what we believe, but how we are in the world that is important, it is in our behaviours and our compassion for others that we make a difference. The parallels with our work as chaplains are clear, but also how we can be enriched by looking beyond our own contexts and perspectives when considering human suffering and resilience. Mark is a former Dominican Friar and has a delightfully questioning attitude to life and his Catholicism: he even encourages us to look at a spiritual dimensions in football.

Colin Woodhouse, a palliative care nurse from New Zealand, has been doing some research and lobbying about chaplaincy.  The New Zealand population is 48% non-religious but the chaplaincy service employs 100% Christian chaplains and things need to change. We discuss the challenges influencing change and options for designing new services.

Rubina Yassin shares her experience, contributions and perspectives about spiritual care as a Muslim woman. She talks about her journey into the traditionally Christian domain of chaplaincy and how this has changed over time, reaching the point now where she is part of the Spiritual, Pastoral and Religious Care (SPaRC) team at Bradford Teaching Hospitals which actively seeks to provide an inclusive service to staff and patients. It is interesting to hear her describe how much more confident she feels to work across beliefs these days, as the SPaRC team does not limit itself to a 'see-your-own' ethos on the wards. Rubina offers some explanations of the importance of sharing an understanding of Islam in order to deliver care and provide appropriate resources, including a novel solution to support the end of fasting in Ramadan.

Paul Hurst, with his background in business, psychotherapy and psychology, uses a wealth of knowledge and research to question some of the assumptions and norms in Chaplaincy.  We try to focus on the significance of the Chaplaincy website as a digital gateway: it signals how open a service feels and whether it is for me. However our discussion segues off many different avenues of discussion including the experience of non-religious colleagues in teams, the importance of allowing a person to define their own beliefs, the joy in helping people find their own resolutions and connections, the downsides of signalling one belief as the norm, and the envisioning a future that evolves from need rather than history. Paul's analysis of chaplaincy websites with his checklist / grid for evaluating your site can be found here and he made a rather rash offer to evaluate your site for you if you contact him.

We start this conversation with Karen Murphy (recent president of the AHPCC) by charting the changes in chaplaincy as it moves towards an accredited profession, but recognising the pitfalls in making this route easier for some than others. Inclusion must remain a priority and we reflect a little on how to work across beliefs rather than in silos, always being cautious and humble about our own contributions.  Karen has recently retired after a 6 year term at president of the AHPCC and she works at an independent hospice in Weston-Super-Mare with a particular interest in how to bring chaplaincy and spiritual care into the community. We share some practice examples of delivering person-centred care in acute and hospice settings, thinking about how they differ. Karen speaks about three main challenges going forward: the recognition of changes in beliefs in the UK with an ever growing number (majority) of people who are non-religious; the location and integration of chaplaincy and spiritual care in wider organisational systems and approaches (how we are seen and used); and the need to gather evidence of our place and value in holistic services in order to show impact and demonstrate evidence based practice. Apologies for some technical problems with this recording - we are learning rapidly how to improve what we do without getting too hung up on getting it perfect.

In this episode we discuss the circumstances in which chaplains may be called and what expectations and assumptions may lie behind those requests. Often there is an association of the chaplain with end of life; we are called to offer staff advice and patients comfort. But this association can also create anxiety if a patient thinks the chaplain is visiting them because they are going to die. With staff on wards key gatekeepers in referring patients to chaplaincy /spiritual care services, we muse over how their own worldviews and perceptions may influence their use of the service. We explore in what other circumstances chaplains play their part such as MDTs, safeguarding and even security and start to consider some differences for chaplains between acute care, hospice care and mental health services. 

In this episode Stig and Jo discuss wider concepts of prayer which is highly individualistic and which may be private or public, spontaneous or ritualistic. We consider what 'prayer' might mean to people? How might we pray or not pray with those we meet? What spaces can be made for prayer or spiritual connection? If one function of prayer is well-wishing and comfort, how can we all assist in this, regardless of our own beliefs? 

By far and away, most chaplains are religious people and yet we know that conversations are frequently not at all religious in nature, and indeed that many people we meet do not describe themselves as religious.  Our conversation considers how religion is only part of what we offer, how you don't need to be matched by religion to have meaningful connections, and indeed whether the name 'chaplain' can trip us up.