Pivot Podcast

What does first century Christianity have to teach the church about belonging today? In this episode of the Pivot Podcast, Dr. Kristofer Phan Coffman, Assistant Professor of New Testament at Luther Seminary, joins hosts Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm to explore the early church as a community of genuinely unlike people navigating real social upheaval. From the chaos of the Roman Empire to Paul's fledgling congregations scattered across the Mediterranean, Kristofer helps us see that the early church was not a settled institution with established patterns. It was a community figuring out, often under pressure, what it meant to belong to one another across real difference.That history has direct implications for church leaders today. Kristofer challenges the assimilation patterns that quietly shape much of North American Christianity and invites leaders to ask hard questions about who feels at home in their communities and why. Drawing on Paul's letters and the witness of Acts, he points toward self-awareness and deep listening as the foundational practices for forming Christian community in a fragmented cultural moment.Genesis to Revelation: A Bible Overview with Kristofer Phan CoffmanWalking the Narrow Road: Milestones in Church History with Jennifer Hornyak WojciechowskiCrash Course: Church with Stephanie Luedke

What does it mean to find your identity in Christ, and what does the Old Testament have to say about it? In this episode of the Pivot Podcast, Dr. Kathryn Schifferdecker, professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary, walks hosts Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm through the Bible's vision for human community, from the boundaries woven into creation in Genesis, to the covenant at Sinai, to the prophets calling Israel back to account. Along the way, she challenges the modern assumption that identity is something we construct from within, offering instead a picture of people called into being by God and sent into the world to be a blessing.From the call of Abraham to the Sabbath commandment to the words of Amos, Kathryn shows how scripture consistently orients us away from self-fulfillment and toward the flourishing of others, especially the most vulnerable. This is the first of a two-part series on biblical community at Pivot Podcast, and it offers church leaders a grounding and hopeful framework for navigating a culture that has largely forgotten what community is for.

Why does God allow suffering? It's one of the oldest and most urgent questions in human experience, and Dr. Rolf Jacobson has lived inside it. Diagnosed with bone cancer at 15 and losing both legs, then decades later walking alongside his brother Karl and close friend Mike through simultaneous cancer diagnoses, Rolf has wrestled with that question personally, pastorally, and theologically. In this conversation with host Dwight Zscheile, he draws on the theology of the cross, the Psalms, and the hard-won wisdom of his own experience to offer some of the most grounded and practical guidance you'll hear on faith, suffering, and Christian community.Rolf talks about what to say and what not to say to someone in crisis, why the impulse to explain suffering usually backfires, and what it looks like for a congregation to truly show up for someone going through the worst. He also shares the story behind his book God Meets Us in Our Suffering, co-authored with Karl and Michael Pancoast, and why he believes the theology of the cross is not abstract doctrine but the most practical pastoral theology there is. Dr. Rolf Jacobson is Dean of the Faculty and Professor of Old Testament at Luther Seminary.The Grace of Just Showing Up (With Cheetos) - MockingbirdGod Meets Us in Our Suffering – Baker Publishing GroupGod and Grief and Loss: Turning on the Light with Michelle Bryant Powell

What does real church community cultivation require? The Rev. Dr. Eun Strawser, physician, author, and pastor of Ma Ke Alo'o, a network of multiplying missional communities in Honolulu, Hawaii, has spent years working out a practical answer to that question. After planting her first church and growing it to 450 people, she realized a crowd had gathered but a community hadn't really formed. Her second church plant took a radically different approach, starting with 15 people, a discipleship core, and weekly community dinners before ever launching a Sunday service.In this conversation with Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm, Eun makes the case that discipleship is the missing link in most churches' understanding of community. She shares what it looks like to form people for neighborhood presence rather than church volunteerism, how to make locally rooted invitations that actually move people, and why the vision of the early church in Acts 2 is less about miraculous growth and more about a countercultural way of life together. If your church is serious about church community building that goes beyond filling seats, this episode is a place to start.Recruiting, Equipping, and Empowering Church Leaders with Clara King and Dwight Zscheile Starting a Fresh Expression of Church with Michael Beck, Dwight Zscheile, and Dee Stoke Starting a Fresh Expression of Church with Michael Beck, Dwight Zscheile, and Dee Stoke Ma Ke Alo o - HomeCentering Discipleship: Connecting the Church to Community Development-Rev. Dr. Eun K. Strawser, Melissa Cabagbag, Kelci Schedler » Christian Community Development Association

Why is Christian community so hard to cultivate in contemporary culture? In this episode of Pivot Podcast, host Dwight Zscheile continues his conversation with Dr. Jennifer Wojciechowski, a professor of church history at Luther Seminary, tracing the deep cultural roots of our present challenge. From the Enlightenment's reimagining of the human person as an autonomous individual to the seismic cultural shifts of the 1960s and 70s, Jennie and Dwight examine how Western culture arrived at a place where shared frameworks for truth and the common good have largely dissolved, and how both mainline and evangelical churches have accommodated themselves to that story in ways that have undermined their witness.But the conversation doesn't stop at diagnosis. Jennie draws on two thousand years of church history to identify what has actually produced renewal: communities defined by credible Christian living and the clear proclamation of the gospel. From the mendicant movements of the High Middle Ages to the witness of St. Francis, the pattern holds. In a culture that measures human value by productivity and self-optimization, the message of grace turns out to be genuinely strange and genuinely needed. This episode offers church leaders both an honest reckoning with the forces shaping their congregations and a historically grounded reason for hope.

"Your labor is not in vain." It's one of Paul's most direct declarations in 1 Corinthians 15, and Dr. Jennifer Pietz, Assistant Professor of New Testament at Luther Seminary, believes it has everything to do with how church leaders carry their work today. In this Easter reflection, Jenny addresses three common misconceptions about resurrection that quietly hollow out hope in ministry, and grounds each one in what Paul actually argues in 1 Corinthians 15.Resurrection isn't only about Jesus. It isn't only a future promise. And it isn't an escape from the world. It's the present foundation of Christian vocation, and the reason your labor in the Lord is never wasted. If you're a church leader who is tired, discouraged, or simply hungry for a word that goes deeper than Easter Sunday optimism, this reflection is for you.Mary Magdalene, La Malinche, and the Ethics of Interpretation by Jennifer Vija Pietz (Lexington Books/Fortress Academic, 2022)

Cultivating Christian community can feel really hard today, but the reasons run deeper than most church leaders realize. In part one of this two-part conversation, Luther Seminary professor Dwight Zscheile sits down with church historian Dr. Jennifer Wojciechowski to trace the roots of today's loneliness epidemic and discipleship crisis from the Renaissance through the Enlightenment and into our present moment. Along the way, they explore how thinkers like Locke, Rousseau, Mill, and Nietzsche quietly reshaped the West's story about what it means to be human, and how that story is now shaping the people sitting in your pews.This conversation won't offer a quick fix for church community building, but it will give you something more valuable: clarity about the cultural forces you're actually working against, and a renewed sense of why the church's vision of human life together is more countercultural and more needed than ever. Part two will pick up with the 20th century and explore what all of this means for faithful church leadership today.Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth: 9780593850633 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: BooksCommon Sense by Thomas PaineThe Confessions of Jean Jacques Rousseau, by Jean Jacques RousseauThe Project Gutenberg eBook of The Confessions of Saint Augustine, by Saint Augustine

What does Christian community look like when a city is in crisis? In this first episode of Season 6 of the Pivot Podcast, Faith+Lead scholars Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm go inside the last eight months in the Twin Cities, a period marked by targeted violence, a school shooting, and a large-scale federal immigration enforcement operation that left communities shaken and afraid. The church showed up quietly and persistently across every theological tradition, delivering food, organizing legal assistance, moving worship into living rooms, and rallying around members who were detained and flown out of state without warning.This episode explores what crisis reveals about the difference between Christian community and mere membership, and why genuine belonging looks nothing like a program. It also launches a season-long conversation about why cultivating Christian community is so hard right now and what a faithful response might look like. If you've ever wondered whether the church still has something irreplaceable to offer a fractured world, this episode is your answer.

What does Ryan Burge's research on religious nones reveal about the Americans sitting just outside your church doors? In part two of this two-part conversation, Dwight and Alicia continue their discussion with Dr. Ryan Burge, data scientist and author of The Vanishing Church, diving into what the data actually shows about faith, formation, and the roughly seven out of ten Americans who are neither fully in nor fully out of religious life. The picture is more nuanced, and more hopeful, than most church leaders expect.Ryan walks through what the numbers say about the much-discussed religious revival, why theological formation has always been harder than pastors assume, and what it would actually take to reach a generation starting with zero religious background. He also makes a compelling case for what churches uniquely provide that nothing else in American life can: genuine contact across difference, the kind that makes it hard to hate the person next to you. If your congregation is wondering who's really out there and how to reach them, this conversation is a grounded and honest place to start.

What happens when political identity becomes stronger than faith identity? Dr. Ryan Burge is a data scientist, professor, and pastor who watched his own 150-year-old congregation close its doors in 2024. In part one of this two-part conversation, Ryan brings the data to bear on one of the most urgent questions facing church leaders today: how faith and political identity have become so entangled in American life that millions of people now choose — or abandon — their church based on politics rather than theology.Ryan walks Dwight and Alicia through what the numbers actually show about church decline, the rise of never-attending evangelicals, the disappearance of politically diverse congregations, and why churches that once held Republicans and Democrats side by side may be the most important institution vanishing from American life. If your congregation feels more politically sorted than it used to, this episode offers both an honest diagnosis and a vision for what the church can still be on the other side of polarization.

Dr. Verlon Fosner's Seattle congregation was declining 14% every year despite doing everything right—improved worship, new programs, upgraded tech. So Verlon stopped trying to fix the decline and started asking a different question: Where is God already at work among people who will never walk through our church doors? His answer transformed his understanding of missional church. In 2008, his team opened their first dinner church in a struggling neighborhood with just tables, food, and Jesus stories. The room immediately filled with never-been-churched people who'd never wanted anything to do with traditional church.In this conversation, Verlon shares how dinner church creates a fundamentally different entry point for faith by recovering the ancient practice of gathering around Jesus' table. He explains why inviting someone to dinner is different than inviting them to Sunday worship, how the first apostles focused on Jesus stories rather than systematic theology, and what happens when tables replace classrooms as the primary environment for discipleship. If your church is declining and you're exhausted from trying to fix it, this conversation offers a different way forward for missional church in a post-Christian context.

Church leaders often approach Lent with a familiar script: add a devotional practice, give something up, host a midweek service. But what if this season called us to something deeper? In this special Pivot Podcast Lenten reflection, the Rev. Dr. F. Willis Johnson invites us into four transformative Lenten practices for church leaders that meet our exhaustion head-on. He offers: 1. sacred honesty about what hurts; 2. holy slowness as resistance to constant rushing; 3. embodied compassion in places where people are hurting; and 4. courageous imagining that refuses to let harshness shape our vision. Willis doesn't turn away from the brokenness around us—he teaches us to stick with it instead.From ashes to service, from truth to tenderness, from fear to faithful love—this is the Lenten trajectory Willis traces through the season. He reminds us that Ash Wednesday is not an ending but a true beginning, that the ashes on our skin clarify rather than humiliate, and that we don't walk this journey alone. Whether you're navigating congregational exhaustion, naming systemic injustice, or reclaiming power that looks like service rather than control, these Lenten practices for church leaders offer both challenge and hope for the season ahead.

Many church leaders feel crushing church growth pressure—the constant anxiety that if you don't reverse decline or manage outcomes perfectly, you've failed. But what if that pressure is actually destroying the very connections you're trying to create? Dr. Andy Root and Rev. Kara Root discovered this truth on a 63-mile pilgrimage through Scotland with their teenagers. As they learned to let go of control in parenting, they began to see how the same dynamic plays out in pastoral leadership. When consultants use decline statistics to scare congregations into action, when the main issue becomes lack of growth instead of the Word of God, something shifts: pastors become managers and God becomes subtle.In this episode, Andy (Luther Seminary professor) and Kara (pastor at Lake Nokomis Presbyterian Church in Minneapolis) talk about what it means to create space for God without trying to manufacture the moment. They discuss "semi-controlled experiences" in worship and prayer, where you can create conditions but can't guarantee the encounter. They share what it means to be dialogue partners instead of managers with your congregation. And they reflect on what a 300-year gap in church leadership at the ancient monastery of Lindisfarne taught them about who really holds the story. If you're exhausted from church growth pressure and the weight of trying to control everything, this conversation offers a different way forward.

Many church leaders love the idea of lay ministry in theory, but struggle to understand what it actually looks like in practice. In this special Q&A episode, Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm answer your questions about the shift from clergy-led to lay-led ministry, sharing concrete examples from small congregations to megachurches that are making this work.You'll hear concrete examples from small congregations to megachurches that are making this work, learn how to renegotiate expectations with your congregation, discover what clergy are actually called to do when they stop doing everything themselves, and understand why this shift isn't about working yourself out of a job—it's about recovering the biblical pattern of the whole body of Christ engaged in ministry together.

What if the church planters God is calling are already in your congregation? John McGinley, executive director of Myriad in the UK, shares how they're equipping everyday disciples to start new worshiping communities in gyms, schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces. Since 2022, over 100 teams and 400+ people have launched contextual churches led by non-ordained believers. John explains how to recognize potential church planters, why a two-and-a-half-year community journey sustains these fragile new communities, and how ordained leaders can shift from delivering ministry to equipping it.In this conversation, you'll hear stories of a former bodybuilder who turned his gym into a church where over 20 people have come to faith, and a mom who created worship for families with special needs children. John shares practical wisdom on validating callings you might be missing, building small communities around meals and relationships rather than programs, and contextualizing the gospel for the people already in your networks. Discover how the role of ordained leadership is shifting from professional ministry delivery to equipping and overseeing grassroots church planters who are reaching people traditional models can't.

What does Protestant identity in Christ mean for today's church leaders? In this conversation, theologian Beth Felker Jones explores why Protestant faith still matters in a moment when many are converting to Catholicism, embracing Orthodoxy, or deconstructing entirely. Beth unpacks the unique gifts of Protestant tradition: scripture as our primary authority, communal interpretation led by the Spirit, and the freedom to contextualize the gospel for new times and places. She challenges the myth of a "one pure church" before Protestantism and offers a compelling case for reclaiming Protestant heritage without fragmenting the broader body of Christ.Beth also addresses church hurt with refreshing honesty, exploring how Protestant identity in Christ allows space for both brokenness and hope. From the art of retelling the gospel for new contexts to why justification by grace still speaks to our self-justifying culture, this conversation helps leaders think more deeply about what they've inherited and what they want to pass on. Whether you're navigating questions about tradition and authority or helping people explore their faith identity, Beth offers wisdom for embracing Protestant faith as a gift rather than just a default.

Discover how to read the financial parables of Jesus Christ with fresh eyes in this conversation with Dr. Keith Bodner, author of "Exploring the Financial Parables of Jesus." Keith shares how a moment of panic in the pulpit led him to rediscover the confrontational power of Jesus' economic stories—parables about treasure in fields, workers in vineyards, servants with talents, and rich men who know their neighbor's name but never open the gate. These stories reveal what Keith calls the economy of grace, where God's generosity turns our assumptions about wealth, fairness, and resources upside down.The financial parables of Jesus Christ haven't lost their power—familiarity has just worn off their edge. Keith helps church leaders understand why context matters when interpreting these stories, how a deficient view of God shapes the way we respond to what we've been given, and why the older brother in the prodigal son parable might be about us rather than the Pharisees. Whether you're preparing to preach on the parable of the talents, teaching a Bible study on Lazarus at the gate, or helping your congregation think differently about stewardship, this conversation offers practical insights for letting these ancient texts confront and transform us again.

In November 2020, amid a pandemic and national racial reckoning, two congregations in Des Moines made a bold decision to merge. Hope Des Moines, a primarily white Lutheran church, and Elim Christian Fellowship, a historically Black church, became Hope+Elim. This wasn't about saving declining attendance or finding quick institutional fixes. It was about two pastors who had built a friendship over years of sharing pulpits and dreaming together, and who believed God was calling them to witness to church unity in their city.Pastor Brian Brown joins the conversation to share what building church unity actually looks like in real time. From blending worship styles to tackling hard conversations about race with grace, from hosting community meals to creating ministry partnerships that serve their neighborhood, Hope+Elim is learning that proximity doesn't equal community. Real church unity requires vulnerability, resilience, and the willingness to create something new together. If you're wondering where to start in building bridges across racial and cultural divides, Brian's wisdom offers both practical guidance and hope for the journey.

Pastoral care for pastors takes center stage in this special Christmas reflection as Steve Thomason offers church leaders a rare gift during the busiest season of the year: permission to let go of perfect. If you've been working nonstop since September with rally days, sermons, hospital visits, and board meetings, you know the weight that builds as Christmas approaches. The pressure to make everything spectacular for people who'll only attend once all year can feel overwhelming. But Steve invites leaders to remember what really happened that first Christmas night—not spectacle or perfection, but the raw, ordinary mess of childbirth in a stable where God chose to enter the world.Drawing from the Gospel of John and Paul's letter to the Philippians, Steve reminds us that Jesus didn't own a home or get worked up about buildings and budgets. He had a simple call: proclaim God's kingdom and invite people to love God and neighbor. This reflection offers weary church leaders a blessing of simplicity, inviting them back to that stable scene where a young couple, displaced strangers finding shelter among animals, brought God into the world through the same painful process we all experience. It was normal, messy, and beautiful—and pastoral care for pastors means remembering that you are too.

AI and church leadership are colliding in ways that demand theological clarity. Dr. Paul Hoffman, author of AI Shepherds and Electric Sheep, joins hosts Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile to offer a framework for discernment: How might artificial intelligence help or hinder human flourishing? And what does human flourishing mean when we're created in the image of God? Paul brings both pastoral experience and academic rigor to questions many church leaders are facing: Should AI write sermons? How do we shepherd people forming relationships with chatbots? What embodied practices can help our congregations stay grounded in an increasingly digital world?Rather than embracing technological solutions or rejecting them entirely, Paul invites church leaders into curiosity and theological reflection. He explores which ministry tasks AI can genuinely assist with and which require irreplaceable human presence. From the incarnation of Jesus to the gathered worship of Christian community, Paul helps us see what technology can never touch and why embodiment matters more than ever. Whether your congregation is already experimenting with AI or you're just beginning these conversations, this episode offers practical wisdom for shepherding your people through this cultural shift.

Ministry burnout prevention isn't just about better time management or clearer boundaries. In this episode, Wes Granberg-Michaelson shares what he learned from five decades of church leadership and 50 years of personal journals: the leaders who sustain faithful ministry for the long haul are the ones who tend their inner lives. Wes explains why "only the pain you name is available for transformation" and why the pain you don't name gets transmitted to others. He talks about building a "holding space" that takes care of your soul when no board or congregation will do it for you, why prayer is fundamentally about attention in an attention economy, and why strategic plans can't do what spiritual grounding does. For church leaders feeling exhausted or discouraged, Wes offers both honest diagnosis and genuine hope.Wes also addresses what's really happening with spiritual interest in America beyond the decline statistics, why the deepest failure of mainline Christianity has been the failure of Christian formation, and what pastors can learn from Dietrich Bonhoeffer about forming communities in challenging times. Drawing on his experience from the U.S. Senate to denominational leadership to global ecumenical work, Wes challenges the addiction to planning and control that infiltrates the church and invites leaders to pay attention to where God is already at work. This conversation offers wisdom about integrating your inward and outward journeys for sustainable, faithful leadership.

In this special Thanksgiving episode, Luther Seminary professor Dr. Lois Malcolm offers a seven-minute blessing that reclaims what gratitude and thanksgiving actually mean in Scripture. Instead of linking blessing with wealth, health, and success, Lois explores the deeper biblical meaning: that blessings invoke and impart God's very presence with us. She traces blessing from Abraham through Moses, David, and Jesus, showing how God's people are called to be a blessing to others even when we fail, even in the face of injustice.Lois concludes with a personal blessing adapted from Ephesians 3 for every church leader listening. Whether you're worn down from ministry demands or simply need to hear that God's steadfast love and mercy remain with you in life's complexity, this blessing is for you. As Psalm 103 reminds us, God gives our souls "the animating center of our lives, something artificial intelligence cannot rob or create." This Thanksgiving, receive a blessing grounded not in your circumstances but in the God who accomplishes abundantly more than we can ask or imagine.

When established churches struggle to connect with their communities, leaders typically reach for one of two solutions: work harder at the inherited model, or import a successful church plant template. But Dr. Dwight Zscheile and Rev. Ed Olsworth-Peter are inviting us to consider a different approach—one that develops church plant leadership skills through deep listening to the Spirit and to the neighborhood rather than implementing blueprints or programs. In this episode, they discuss their new book, The Starter's Way, which draws on stories from both the UK's Fresh Expression Movement and communities across the United States to explore the spiritual foundations and practices that make for faithful, sustainable leadership of new Christian communities.Dwight and Ed share compelling examples of contextual ministry, from a Wisconsin community that created "Play, Pray, and Popsicles" for families with neurodivergent children to forest churches in the UK where people encounter God in creation. They explore the 15 pioneer principles that shape church plant leadership skills, organized around spiritual foundations (Jesus-centered, prayerful, called, bicultural, and responsive), inward qualities (discerning, self-giving, playful, hospitable, and resilient), and outward practices (noticing, adapting, experimenting, co-creating, and persisting). This conversation offers hope for leaders who want to join what God is already doing in their neighborhoods rather than trying to fix inherited structures or replicate someone else's success story.

Many church leaders notice fewer young adults in the pews and wonder what strategy to try next. But Kristina Frugé, who leads the Riverside Innovation Hub at Augsburg University, has spent years actually listening to young adults. She's discovered something encouraging: they are open to connections to spiritual communities. They're hungry for authentic relationships, meaningful engagement with their real lives, and churches that practice what they preach. The gap isn't about coffee bars or contemporary worship. It's about whether churches lead with genuine curiosity or anxiety about decline. Young adults can tell the difference.In this episode, Kristina shares insights from her work with hundreds of young adults and from the new book "Hungry for Hope: Letters to the Church from Young Adults." She explains why young adults want to be known rather than known about, how "courageous curiosity" creates space for genuine connection, and why grief might be an important place to start. The good news? Churches already have what they need—relationships, practices, stories, and people who know how to love their neighbors. The question is whether we're willing to listen for where God is already at work in the lives of faith and young adults in our communities.

Our congregations are filled with people wrestling with anxiety, depression, and struggles they don't always name out loud. Many church leaders feel the weight of wanting to help people through their mental health challenges, but what does a shared approach to pastoral care look like in a church setting? And how can leaders companion people through these struggles without burning out? In this episode, Dr. Cody Sanders—Associate Professor of Congregational and Community Care Leadership at Luther Seminary and author of Spiritual Care First Aid—shares how churches can become communities of healing and hope. He offers practical examples of collaborative approaches to care, from worship planning to equipping lay caregivers, that honor both the humanity of those who are struggling and the limitations of those who care.You'll discover why companioning beats fixing every time, how to create trauma-informed care practices without clinical training, and practical ways to combat loneliness in your congregation. Cody shares stories of churches doing this well—from pastors passing out donuts at the high school to congregations equipping lay care teams that become self-sustaining. Whether you're a pastor feeling overwhelmed by caregiving responsibilities or a lay leader wanting to support your community better, this conversation offers a sustainable path forward that invites your entire church to share in the ministry of care.

What does it take to become a missional church in today's changing landscape? Bishop Scott Johnson and Deacon Timothy Siburg of the Nebraska Synod ELCA are helping 217 congregations discover the answer—and it starts with listening rather than fixing. In this episode, they share how churches across Nebraska are shifting from asking "How do we get people back?" to "What is God already doing in our community?" Through their Vitality Initiative and Mission Field Nebraska, they're creating permission-giving cultures where congregations experiment boldly, learn from unexpected partners, and discover that faithfulness means joining what God is doing in the present.Scott and Timothy offer practical wisdom for any church leader navigating change, whether in rural or urban contexts. You'll learn how to move from church-centered to God-centered questions, why giving permission is more powerful than providing programs, and how cross-cultural partnerships can transform traditional congregations into vibrant missional churches. They don't sugarcoat the challenges ahead—drawing on Romans 8's image of labor pains, they acknowledge the hard work required. But they also remind us that we're not alone in this work, and that the primary leader of the church is God, not us. If you're feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to innovate while managing traditional ministry demands, this conversation offers hope and a clearer path forward.

Integrating faith and work is one of the biggest gaps in church ministry today. Most Christians spend the majority of their waking hours at work, navigating ethical dilemmas, difficult relationships, and daily decisions that test their faith. Yet what gets talked about in church on Sunday rarely connects with what people are wrestling with Monday through Saturday. Many business leaders feel like church either puts them on a pedestal as "job creators" or critiques them for participating in capitalism—and neither approach helps them figure out how to follow Jesus in the workplace.In this episode, Dr. Michael Binder—a Luther Seminary professor and co-owner of a five-generation HVAC business—shares what he's learned from living in both worlds. Michael helps us imagine what it would look like for churches to create space where people can talk about their real work struggles, what preaching sounds like when it equips people for the six days they're not in church, and why helping members integrate faith and work into their daily callings might be some of the most important ministry we do. If your members spend most of their lives outside the church building, this conversation will challenge you to think differently about faith and work integration.

Gen Z and Gen Alpha have grown up in a world where institutional trust has deeply eroded—and that changes everything about youth ministry. In this episode, sociologist Dr. Josh Packard explains why the ministry strategies that worked for previous generations are falling flat with today's young people. It's not that Gen Z and Gen Alpha hate the church or are rebelling against it. Most simply grew up without any connection to religious institutions at all. Josh shares why the shift from high-trust to low-trust culture means churches must lead with relationships rather than programs, buildings, or pastoral credentials.Josh, author of "Faithful Futures: Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger Generations," introduces the concept of "sacred listening"—a three-part framework that helps youth workers build authentic connections at scale. You'll learn practical tools for managing dozens or even hundreds of relationships, why teenagers' "thin faith" expressions aren't the real concern, what COVID did to young people's social development, and why the critical years between 18-30 determine whether youthful faith deepens or disappears. This conversation offers hope and practical guidance for anyone working with Gen Z and Gen Alpha.

Are you exhausted from trying to be the perfect church leader who has all the answers? Nicole Massie Martin, COO of Christianity Today and author of "Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender," introduces us to cruciform leadership—a revolutionary approach that places the cross at the center of how we lead. Drawing from her journey from corporate consultant to ministry executive, Nicole reveals how most leadership models ignore the very heart of Christian faith and why pastors are burning out trying to lead like the world instead of following Jesus.In this powerful conversation, Nicole shows us what it means to replace perfectionism with perfect union with Christ, how to let God set the pace instead of competing with other churches, and why authentic vulnerability is what congregations are actually hungry for. Through cruciform leadership, church leaders can move from trying to be their congregation's savior to pointing people toward the real Savior, discovering the abundant life that comes through embracing the way of the cross rather than chasing worldly success.

Many church leaders today feel trapped in unsustainable patterns of solo ministry, carrying everything from sermon prep to pastoral care to vision casting on their own shoulders. Dr. Eun Strawser, a physician, author, and church planter in Hawaii, discovered that these church leadership best practices aren't actually biblical at all. In this episode, she shares how moving from exhausted solo leadership to shared community leadership transformed her ministry from one community to 12 missional communities serving over 650 people, all while maintaining her medical practice and raising three children.Eun reveals the "four H's" of biblical leadership (humility, honor, hospitality, and hope) that create better leaders than secular markers of control, crowd, and contribution. Through compelling stories from her Hawaii context, including leaders like Kelsey who serves 500 seniors and Melissa whose community provides school supplies for 1,000 families, listeners will discover practical church leadership best practices for identifying, developing, and empowering leaders throughout their congregations. Whether you're feeling isolated in ministry or looking to multiply your impact, this conversation offers a roadmap for sustainable, Kingdom-focused leadership that actually works.

The 90% of American congregations with fewer than 200 weekly attendees are gifted communities of faith. They are strategically positioned ministries with unique small church advantages for this time. In this episode, Brandon O'Brien, author of the newly revised "The Strategically Small Church" and director of global thought leadership for Redeemer City to City, challenges the narrative that bigger automatically means better in church ministry. Drawing from nearly two decades of serving pastors worldwide, Brandon reveals how small churches possess distinct small church advantages including radical particularity, authentic community, and the agility to contextualize ministry for specific populations that larger congregations simply cannot replicate.Brandon shares practical insights about leveraging small church advantages through asset-based thinking, focusing on worship, formation, and mission as a minimally viable ecclesiology, and embracing authenticity as a powerful evangelistic tool in our current cultural moment. Whether you're pastoring a rural congregation of 15 or an urban church of 150, this conversation will help you notice your assets and strategic strengths for ministry and mission in this time. God loves congregations of all sizes. Smaller membership congregations are strategic powerhouses positioned for meaningful mission and ministry in your particular community. Discover why the future of faithful church leadership may well depend on understanding and maximizing these essential small church advantages.

In part two of our conversation with Dr. Kara Powell, Dr. Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang from Fuller Seminary, we dive deep into the practical aspects of transforming church organizational culture. Harvard Business Review reports that 70% of change efforts fail, but these researchers have discovered why some churches successfully navigate transformation while others struggle. The key lies not in solo leadership or quick fixes, but in building diverse transformation teams that can effectively guide change through four essential zones: here, there, who, and how. Our guests share compelling stories of churches that shifted from spectator-based ministry to empowering communities of co-creators, demonstrating how effective church organizational culture change happens when the right people stay at the table long enough to discern God's direction together.Whether you're a pastor carrying the weight of change alone or a church leader seeking practical strategies for engaging your congregation in transformation, this episode offers hope and concrete tools for developing a future-focused approach. Learn why starting with "who" is more important than starting with "why," discover practical exercises for imagining your church's future through Scripture and community discernment, and explore how Jesus modeled the most effective change leadership principles. From building transformation teams with the right mix of authority and responsibility to creating church organizational culture that naturally develops disciples who live out their faith in daily life, this conversation provides a roadmap for sustainable church transformation rooted in theological conviction and practical wisdom.

Is your church organizational culture stuck in patterns that no longer serve younger generations? After working with over 1,000 congregations through their Growing Young Cohort, researchers Dr. Kara Powell, Dr. Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang discovered that thriving churches aren't distinguished by their programs or budgets, but by their willingness to transform their church organizational culture around three key checkpoints: relationally discipling young people, modeling kingdom diversity, and tangibly loving neighbors. These aren't flashy new strategies but research-backed, kingdom-oriented practices that create the kind of church organizational culture where faith naturally forms across generations.In this hopeful conversation, the co-authors of "Future Focused Church" share why they believe "the best days of your church are ahead" and reveal how small wins can reshape entire congregations. Learn why "culture eats strategy for breakfast," discover the four essential skills for leading change (here, there, who, how), and hear practical stories of churches that moved from programs to people, creating meaningful community in our post-pandemic world. Whether you're struggling with declining attendance or wondering how to engage diverse communities authentically, this episode offers both theological grounding and practical hope for transforming your church organizational culture.

What does authentic Christian leadership actually look like in today's cultural moment? Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship USA, discovered the answer through 29 years of ministry at UC Berkeley—one of the most challenging campus environments in the country. After his proven Bible study techniques fell flat in a cross-cultural context, Jason learned that authentic Christian leadership flows from character formation, not charisma or methodological mastery. His supervisor's simple question—"What do you experience in my leadership?"—launched a transformation that would reshape his entire understanding of spiritual authority.Drawing from the Gospel of Luke, Jason reveals why the most influential leaders in God's story are often the unexpected ones, and why aiming for "healthy and holy" beats "smart and fast" every time. He shares how authentic Christian leadership develops through integrity, community discernment, and learning to follow God's movement rather than trying to fix institutional problems. Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, or volunteer stepping into leadership roles, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what true spiritual authority looks like and discover how to lead as "secondary supporting cast" in God's ongoing story.

What if the struggle many churches face with forming deep, lasting disciples is an invitation to rediscover catechesis, the ancient practice that transformed the early church? For three centuries, when Christianity was just one option among many in a pluralist culture, the church developed a patient, comprehensive approach to catechesis that formed people in the basic building blocks of thinking, praying, and living as Christians. Dr. Alex Fogleman, author of "Making Disciples: Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice," explores how this ancient wisdom can revolutionize modern discipleship formation.In this conversation, Alex reveals how catechesis addresses today's cultural fragmentation through what he calls a "pedagogy of enchantment"—formation that goes beyond mere information to create genuine encounters with the living God. Discover why effective catechesis takes time, how to practice "counter-catechesis" against competing cultural creeds, and practical steps for implementing this transformative approach in your church context. Whether you're wrestling with surface-level Christian education or seeking deeper formation practices, this episode offers ancient solutions for contemporary discipleship challenges.

Most churches have fallen into the trap of only discussing money during budget season or stewardship campaigns, focusing solely on what people give rather than how they live. But what if there's a way to go beyond the tithe and help people navigate their entire financial lives through the lens of faith? Grace Pomroy, Director of the Stewardship Leaders Program at Luther Seminary, discovered this gap when she asked a room of stewardship leaders a simple question that left them speechless: "What's one way you've managed money faithfully that didn't involve giving it away?"In this episode, Grace shares insights from her Faith and Money Learning Lab about how congregations can move beyond the tithe toward holistic financial discipleship. She reveals practical approaches for creating safe spaces where people can explore what it means to spend, save, and earn money faithfully, including spiritual practices that start with God's love rather than shame. Whether you're a pastor, lay leader, or someone wrestling with how faith intersects with your financial decisions, this conversation offers hope for engaging money conversations that transform lives rather than just fund budgets.

Church leadership challenges seem to multiply daily in today's uncertain ministry landscape. Declining attendance, budget shortfalls, aging facilities, and disengaged members can create an endless stream of problems that feel urgent to fix. But what if all the energy spent on fixing is actually getting in the way of what God wants to do? In this special Q&A episode, Pivot Podcast hosts Terri Elton, Dwight Zscheile, and Alicia Granholm address some pressing church leadership challenges facing pastors and ministry leaders today, offering a radically different approach rooted in biblical wisdom.Rather than providing quick fixes or new programs, the hosts explore how to shift from a fixing mindset to one of listening and discernment. They discuss why encounters with the living God matter more than perfect programming, how to distinguish between institutional decline and the necessary dying that leads to resurrection, and practical ways to move toward collaborative ministry models. Whether you're wrestling with questions about preaching authority, lay leadership development, or simply feeling overwhelmed by church leadership challenges, this conversation offers hope and wisdom for navigating faithful ministry in changing times.

Many congregations today find themselves wrestling with inherited buildings that no longer fit their present reality—spaces that are underutilized, expensive to maintain, and disconnected from their neighbors. But what if reimagining church spaces could transform these perceived burdens into powerful assets for community flourishing? Tim Anderson and Tabitha Montgomery, co-executive directors of Flourish Placemaking Collective, have spent years helping churches discover exactly that possibility.In this conversation with host Dwight Zscheile, Tim and Tabitha share their journey from community organizers searching for programming space to consultants helping churches practice what they call "placemaking"—centering the broader community rather than just congregational needs when thinking about church facilities. They discuss the practical steps churches can take when reimagining church spaces, from honest self-assessment to developing a "theology of space," and share inspiring examples like their own Center for Belonging, where a unused church basement became home to seven thriving nonprofit partners. Whether your congregation has 15 members or 150, this episode offers hope and practical wisdom for stewarding church property in ways that serve both faithful mission and neighborhood flourishing.

How do you maintain Christian identity in a culture where Christianity is "merely one option among many"? Church historian Dr. Stephen Presley argues that today's believers face challenges remarkably similar to those of the early church—and can learn much from how ancient Christians navigated their complex cultural moment. Rather than withdrawing from society or seeking political dominance, early believers practiced what Stephen calls "cultural sanctification"—being fully present in pagan spaces while maintaining distinctly Christian identity through quiet evangelism, deep formation, and faithful citizenship.In this conversation, Stephen shares how early Christians like Polycarp could respect civil authority while refusing to compromise their faith, why conversion involved both catechesis and liturgical formation, and what quiet evangelism looked like in practice. He offers practical guidance for local church leaders who want to engage their communities faithfully without retreating from the world or compromising their Christian identity. Stephen is Associate Professor of Church History at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of "Cultural Sanctification: Engaging the World Like the Early Church."

Religious decision making can feel overwhelming when you're caught between equally important values or facing an uncertain future. In this episode, Dr. Angela Williams-Gorrell shares her practical framework for faithful discernment that emerged from her own difficult choices, including leaving a tenured academic position and navigating divorce. As both a practical theologian and someone who has walked through complex decisions, Angela offers a process that honors both human wisdom and divine guidance, moving beyond quick fixes to help listeners engage in meaningful religious decision making.Angela's approach to religious decision making includes five key phases: recognizing the "stirring" that signals change, actively surrendering to God's guidance, working constructively with emotions, sifting through competing values and convictions, and finding "sated joy" in faithful choices. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that emotions are "incredibly helpful teachers" in the discernment process and challenges the false binary between rational and emotional decision-making. Whether you're a pastor facing ministry challenges, a leader navigating organizational change, or someone at a personal crossroads, this episode provides both theological depth and practical tools for making decisions that align with your faith and values.

What if the solution to declining church participation isn't better programs, but joining neighbors where they already are? Pastor Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, shares how her congregation at Riverside Presbyterian transformed from hosting 2,000 kids once a year at their "Slop Fest" mud Olympics to creating ongoing relationships through fresh expressions of church. Their bold move - selling donated land and opening a seven-day-a-week coffee shop with indoor playground - turned their half of an office building into the community's favorite gathering place for families.Shannon reveals the "who before what" principle driving fresh expressions across denominations, from dinner churches to workplace ministries. She offers practical first steps any inherited church can take to connect authentically with neighbors, including how to see your community with "the eyes of Jesus" and why one church's simple question to their local high school - "Who's the most underserved group here?" - changed everything. Perfect for church leaders feeling stuck between maintaining existing programs and wondering what God might be calling them toward in an era of rapid cultural change.

Many church leaders find themselves exhausted by traditional programming that no longer connects with their changing neighborhoods. In this episode, discover how fresh expressions can move you beyond fixing declining programs to creating vibrant new forms of faith community. Host Dwight Zscheile speaks with Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, about her transformation from VBS burnout to pioneering fresh expressions that bring diverse families together through shared activities like soccer and art.Shannon shares the "loving first journey" - a listening-first approach to developing fresh expressions that begins with discerning where God is already at work in your community rather than planning in committee rooms. Learn how to identify and release pioneers, supporters, and permission givers for fresh expressions in your congregation, and discover why fresh expressions actually energize inherited churches rather than competing with them. Whether you're struggling with volunteer recruitment, seeking to connect with your neighborhood's diversity, or wondering how to move from membership-focused to discipleship-centered ministry, this conversation offers practical insights into fresh expressions that create space for authentic community engagement and spiritual formation.

Has Religion Become Obsolete in American Culture? In this second part of our conversation with sociologist Dr. Christian Smith, we explore his groundbreaking research on why traditional religion has lost its cultural relevance for post-Boomer generations. Dr. Smith unpacks what he calls the "Millennial Zeitgeist" - a complex cultural worldview shaped by digital technology, individualism, and anti-institutional sentiment that has fundamentally changed how younger Americans approach faith, truth, and spiritual meaning.Rather than offering quick fixes for declining church attendance, Dr. Smith challenges religious leaders to understand the deeper cultural forces at play and engage in profound soul-searching about authentic Christian identity. He reveals how the re-enchantment movement is drawing people to mysticism and alternative spiritualities - resources that churches once provided but abandoned in pursuit of secular respectability. This conversation offers essential insights for church leaders wrestling with whether religion has become obsolete and how faith communities can respond faithfully to massive cultural transformation.RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:"Why Religion Went Obsolete: The Demise of Traditional Faith in America" by Dr. Christian SmithSUBSCRIBE & REVIEW:If you loved this episode, please take a moment to subscribe and leave a review!

What's Really Behind America's Religious Decline?*Rebroadcast on Oct. 30, 2025 - Top episode*If you're watching church attendance declining at your congregation and wondering what you're doing wrong, this conversation will transform how you understand the challenges facing American religion. Dr. Christian Smith, sociologist at the University of Notre Dame and author of "Why Religion Went Obsolete," reveals that the struggles you're experiencing aren't primarily about your leadership, programs, or preaching. Instead, we're dealing with "perfect storm" conditions—massive cultural, technological, and social forces that have been building for decades, creating what Smith calls a "cultural mismatch" between traditional religion and today's zeitgeist.Smith's research identifies specific factors since 1991 that have reshaped the religious landscape, from the deinstitutionalization of the American family to the rise of anti-institutional sentiment and popular postmodernism. Rather than trying to fix church attendance declining through traditional methods, church leaders need to understand these macro-level forces and redirect their energy toward discerning where God is already at work. This liberating perspective helps leaders move beyond self-blame to focus on faithful response to genuinely unprecedented cultural conditions. Join hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton as they explore why traditional religion has become "obsolete" in American culture and what this means for the future of faith communities. RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:"Why Religion Went Obsolete: The Demise of Traditional Faith in America" by Dr. Christian SmithSUBSCRIBE & REVIEW:If you loved this episode, please take a moment to subscribe and leave a review!

The New Evangelism Message That's Changing Everything.What if reframing evangelism isn't about getting more people in church, but about learning to meet Jesus in the midst of sorrow? In part two of our conversation with Luther Seminary professor Andy Root we explore a radically different approach to sharing faith that moves beyond happiness-hunting strategies to embrace God's presence in brokenness.Andy Root, author of "Evangelism in an Age of Despair," challenges churches to stop chasing evangelism success like gamblers at a table and instead learn what it means to journey with people into their deepest sorrows. Drawing insights from Blaise Pascal's spiritual journey, this conversation reveals how reframing evangelism around sorrow and loss can actually lead to more authentic faith sharing.ABOUT ANDY ROOT:Andrew Root, PhD (Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary. He is most recently the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair and the six volume Ministry in a Secular Age series.RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:Book: Evangelism in an Age of Despair: Hope Beyond the Failed Promise of Happiness" by Andy RootPivot Podcast episode: Reframing Evangelism: Following Jesus into Sorrow with Andy Root (Part 1)

Many church leaders feel caught between uncomfortable extremes when it comes to how to evangelize - either instrumental strategies that feel manipulative or avoiding evangelism altogether out of fear it will drive people away. In this episode, Luther Seminary professor Andy Root offers a third way through his new book "Evangelism in an Age of Despair." Andy shows how to evangelize through what he calls "a theology of consolation" - recognizing that the caring relationships churches naturally build actually constitute authentic evangelism when grounded in the conviction that Jesus Christ is present in our shared sorrows.Rather than learning new programs or strategies, Andy helps church leaders recognize the evangelism they're already doing. When congregations sit with people going through cancer treatment, help neighbors clean out a deceased parent's home, or simply take walks with those who are grieving, they're practicing presence-based evangelism. This conversation will transform how you think about how to evangelize by moving from strategy-based approaches to authentic ministry that flows naturally from Christian care and consolation.ABOUT ANDY ROOT: Andrew Root, PhD (Princeton Theological Seminary) is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary. He is most recently the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair and the six volume Ministry in a Secular Age series.RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:Book: Evangelism in an Age of Despair (Andy Root, 2025):Book: The Promise of Despair (Andy Root, 2010)Book: The Gospel of Wellness (Rina Raphael, 2022)Book: The Ethics of Authenticity (Charles Taylor, 2018)Book: Cosmopolis (Stephen Toulmin, 1992)

When devastating wildfires swept through Pasadena in early 2025, La Fuente Ministries faced a test of what it means to be church in community crisis. Pastor Marcos Canales and Nina Lau Branson join us to share how their bilingual, intergenerational congregation discovered that being church in community crisis isn't about having perfect emergency plans—it's about cultivating spiritual practices and community connections that help people encounter God even in the midst of catastrophe. From grief stations during the pandemic to emotional vocabulary work and neighborhood-based "casitas" groups, their intentional approach to formation created a foundation that served them well when members lost homes and their entire community faced displacement and trauma.This conversation reveals what authentic church in community crisis looks like beyond typical disaster response protocols. Marcos and Nina demonstrate how embracing the full spectrum of human emotions, creating liturgies that externalize trauma, and fostering distributed leadership can transform crisis from something that destroys community into a pathway for deeper discipleship. Whether your congregation is currently navigating challenges or you want to understand how to be church in community crisis when difficulties arise, their witness offers hope and concrete tools for any church leader committed to shepherding with authenticity and care.

In this thought-provoking episode of the Pivot Podcast, we dive deep into the concept of "one church multiple models" with returning guest Dwight Zscheile. Dwight unpacks the idea of a "mixed ecology" - where traditional congregations and new forms of ministry can flourish together as one church with multiple expressions. He explains how cultural shifts are making traditional church structures increasingly obsolete for younger generations, while presenting practical ways to develop multiple models that don't add to leaders' already full plates.Explore how clergy can shift from "performing" ministry to equipping others, discover practical first steps toward nurturing both inherited and new expressions of church, and learn the biblical foundations for diverse ministry models using the vine and branches metaphor. Whether you're struggling with declining attendance, volunteer burnout, or connecting with your changing community, embracing one church multiple models offers a hopeful path forward that honors tradition while embracing creative new approaches. Dwight's insights from his forthcoming book, co-authored with Blair Pogue, provide a timely roadmap for church leaders navigating today's challenging ministry landscape.

Biblical improvisation offers a compelling framework for preaching in today's complex cultural landscape. In this thought-provoking episode of the Pivot Podcast, Dr. Mark Glanville, Director of the Center for Missional Leadership and professional jazz pianist, shares how preachers can be like jazz musicians—deeply rooted in tradition while creating something fresh and contextual with each sermon.Drawing from his new book "Preaching in a New Key," Mark explores how the post-Christian shift impacts biblical proclamation and offers practical strategies for preachers navigating this transition. Discover how to move from positional authority to invitational posture, cultivate genuine curiosity with scripture, and form communities that reflect Christ's love in their neighborhoods.

Is your church struggling to meaningfully engage with your community? In this transformative episode of the Pivot Podcast, host Dwight Zscheile interviews Pastor Ed Doerner about his innovative approach to church leadership community engagement. Discover how Messiah Lutheran Church in Midland, Michigan transformed from being $5.2 million in debt to creating a sustainable community ministry model that provides $6.2 million worth of services annually through their "Beyond the Breakwater" approach.Pastor Ed shares practical insights on developing sustainable ministries that preserve dignity, reach the often-overlooked ALICE population (Asset Limited, Income Constrained, Employed), and create organic opportunities for faith conversations. Learn about their car repair facility, grocery store, healthcare clinic, and appliance refurbishment ministries—all designed to engage church leaders in community transformation while empowering lay leadership.